amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-25 PRETORIA 9 LODEWYK DE JAGER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53790&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101228_pre_991025.htm MR VISSER The third witness Chairperson, with your permission is Col Lodewyk de Jager, whose affidavit has been marked Exhibit E, who is available to give evidence and has no objection to taking the oath. He prefers to give his evidence in Afrikaans. LODEWYK DE JAGER (sworn states) MR MALAN Thank you, please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr de Jager, you are an applicant for amnesty in the current application, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Your application is found in Bundle 2, pages 156 to 174, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And you deal with this incident from page 166 to 173? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER Subject to certain amendments which we wish to make, do you otherwise confirm the contents of your amnesty application? MR DE JAGER Yes. MR VISSER Do you also confirm that you have studied Exhibit A and that you are able to confirm the contents thereof in so far as it is applicable to you, during the struggle of the past? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And finally, do you confirm the contents of Exhibit E which was drawn up on your consultation which you had had with your legal representatives? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER In Exhibit E on page 2, paragraph 2, you say that you wish to make certain amendments because of the fact that you had erred with regard to certain aspects, because during the drawing up of your application, you did not have access to other documentation or the recollection of other applicants, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct, because I was seated in Cape Town. MR VISSER And now with the benefit of knowledge that you had gained afterwards, you realised that in certain regards, you had made certain mistakes? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER In paragraph 4 you mention that you made a mistake with regard to the date, 1986 and that it had been indeed August of 1987? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER These are small mistakes and that you refer to the Botswana ANC MK Transvaal Machinery and you recall now that there was no Transvaal Machinery in Botswana but indeed in Swaziland, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And when you refer to this Machinery, the Transvaal Machinery, you actually meant to refer to a structure to which Col Coetzee and Pretorius had referred to which was an MK structure, but was busy with an elaboration of so-called ICU on the labour terrain in the RSA, is that correct? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And then in paragraph 6 you have also said that you referred in your application to listening apparatus which you recalled was in the room, installed in the room at the Oasis Motel and you are now saying that your recollection there was incorrect, and there was no tapping devices. There was another form of communication? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER With regard to the general background, you have heard the evidence of Col Coetzee and Col Pretorius here this morning and you have also read their affidavits. Do you agree and concur with that as it is your knowledge of that time? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER Do you confirm the background to the current incident as from paragraph 9 to paragraph 13? MR DE JAGER That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Is it also your evidence that the operation was a Special Forces', army, operation? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And did you receive instruction to be of assistance? From whom did you receive your instruction? MR DE JAGER From Gen Coetzee. MR VISSER And did you convey those instructions to your subordinates, Pretorius and Coetzee? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And I accept that they conveyed their instructions to Sgt, or at that stage Const Olifant and to the source, SWT180? MR DE JAGER Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER You were involved or present at the meeting in Potchefstroom, you explained that in paragraph 14 and the fact that there the issue of an action against these persons to whom we have referred, was discussed? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And there was indeed two attempts, this was by means of SWT180 who had to arrange a meeting with some of these persons whom were referred to and the second attempt was the Oasis Motel in Gaberone? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER Did you yourself and the members under you, have any detailed information with regard to exactly how Special Forces will undertake this operation? MR DE JAGER No, we only acted in a supportive capacity. MR VISSER But you knew that the objective would be to attempt to kill if possible, these people? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER And in both cases, these were just attempts and on both occasions, the people did not arrive? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER You confirm your further evidence, you have also referred to SWT180 if I may take you to page 8 of your affidavit, Exhibit E, do you confirm your own political objectives and how you regarded the struggle of the past from your position as a Security Police officer? MR DE JAGER I do so Chairperson. MR VISSER And you consequently request amnesty for any offence or delict including conspiracy to murder or attempt to murder as it is contained in Exhibit E? MR DE JAGER That is correct. MR VISSER Thank you Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY I've got no questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Visser? MR VISSER None, thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Pretorius, you are excused as a witness, oh, Mr de Jager. MR VISSER Well, now they are both excused. WITNESS EXCUSED