amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-26 PRETORIA 10 CHENNY WILLIAM MORE AM3755/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53795&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101228_pre_991026.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert, what language is Mr More going to use? MR JOUBERT He'll be testifying in Tswana. CHENNY WILLIAM MORE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert? EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr More, this is your first application that you are bringing to the Amnesty Committee, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Now I have canvassed this with the Committee earlier today, and the indication is that your application is before the Committee in a proper manner, in that an initial application was filed at that stage when you were a witness at the Attorney-General's office, is that correct? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Thereafter a further application to amplify the initial one, was prepared, is that correct? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT This application is contained in bundle 1, on page 93 to 111 and the specific incident to which we will be referring today is on pages 98 to 101. Do you confirm the content of this? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert, as it has happened before, the application, Form 1, as it appears from page 93 to page 97, we take it that this is another application, that there was an initial application that was submitted in 1996 by Mr More. MR JOUBERT Madam Chair, that's indeed the case, as was the matter of Mathebula and these. You will recall last week, my learned friend handed in some documentation as well from the firm and Mr More's name also features in that list. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Jansen did that last week. MR JOUBERT That is correct, Madam Chair. Unfortunately, in this bundle that I have at my disposal there is no copy of the initial one, but it was filed with all the other parties at that stage. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may proceed. MR JOUBERT May I assume it is then ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You may proceed and you take it for granted that you are properly before us. MR JOUBERT I do, thank you, Madam Chair. Now Mr More, the Committee has full knowledge of what the political situation was during the earlier years or during this period, I'm not going to take you through that evidence now. We have had a consultation, and do you confirm inasfar as evidence was provided to the Committee earlier on, pertaining to the political situation and the situation more specifically between the Police Force and then the ANC at that stage, that it was a situation basically of war? Do you confirm that? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Now pertaining to your own political motives as such, were you a member of any political organisation at that stage? MR MORE No, Chairperson, I was not a member of any political party. MR JOUBERT Is it correct that you were indeed a member of the South African Police Force? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Is it correct that you joined the South African Police in 1973? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT You underwent training at the college, thereafter you had counter-insurgency training at Maleeuskop and during 1984 you were transferred to the Security Branch Northern Transvaal, at that stage with the rank of Sergeant, is that correct? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And then during 1996, you were discharged due to a medical disability. MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Now at the stage when you were in the service of the Security Branch, and more specifically in this case, during 1987/'88, your job description or the job that you to perform, was that in relation to Security matters? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And from whom did you receive instructions or orders? MR MORE From Capt Prinsloo. MR JOUBERT Capt Prinsloo was your Commanding Officer. MR MORE That is correct, he was my commander, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And the actions that you took, and more specifically this incident today, was that done in accordance with instructions provided to you from your Commanding Officer? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And insofar as you were involved in certain actions, did you receive any remuneration therefore, financially or any other way? MR MORE No, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And the actions that you took, were they taken on the understanding that you were acting on the instructions of your superiors, and in order to maintain the government of the day? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Now Mr More, I will now turn to page 98, annexure A to your application, pertaining to the matter of Mr Moses Morudi. You have heard the evidence that Mr Mathebula gave previously, is that correct? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT I'm just going to point out certain minor issues, whereafter your evidence will be completed. If I refer you to page 99 of your application, paragraph 4, in the second line you "They confirmed that Moses was visiting there" When the word "kuier" is used, what are you referring to here? Was he a resident there or was he merely visiting there for a period of time, or what precisely was the situation? MR MORE He was staying there only temporarily. MR JOUBERT And then on page 100, paragraph 6 of your application, in more-or-less the middle of the paragraph you say "Dos Santos and the others stopped behind us and walked over to our vehicle, where they wanted to determine whether or not this was the right person. After they had determined that this was the right person, by means of a photograph, they loaded him into their car and drove to Pretoria" MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Did you witness this incident as such, the fact that they were checking whether this was the correct person? MR MORE That is correct, I witnessed that, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And at that stage Mr Mathebula, was he present at the motor vehicle, or was he urinating in the veld? MR MORE He was at a distance, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT The Committee has questioned Mr Mathebula on whether any force was used and he was quite clear that there was no force used in the taking of Mr Morudi from the Peugeot to the Skyline. Do you confirm that? MR MORE He was taken by one person from the Peugeot to the Skyline and he did not resist. MR JOUBERT Then in paragraph 8 on the same page, this is now after you had returned to the Compol building, it's the following day, you say that you were conducting other duties and that you did not participate in the interrogation of Moses Morudi, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT You furthermore then make the statement "Capt Prinsloo managed the interrogation" Did you in fact witness this or is this merely an assumption which you are making? MR MORE I took it that he was the one responsible because he's the one who instructed us to go and fetch him from Potchefstroom, and then when we arrived at Compol building, Capt Prinsloo was present at the place where they worked, Compol, then he told us to leave. So I thought he was the one responsible for the interrogation. MR JOUBERT So this is in fact an assumption which you make, correct? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson, I don't have the full facts. MR JOUBERT Then on paragraph 9 on page 101, you state from the second sentence onwards "Smuts Mathebula told me that Moses Morudi was also interrogated further on the farm." MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And at this stage you were there to remove the tents, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Am I then correct in saying that the last time that you had any contact with Mr Morudi was when you saw him at the Compol building on the same day of the abduction? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Do you have any idea what became of Mr Morudi? MR MORE I've no knowledge, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Did you have any personal conflict or problems with Mr Morudi? MR MORE No, Chairperson, I did not know him, I only began to know him on the day when we fetched him from Potchefstroom. MR JOUBERT And then, you are here today to apply for amnesty pertaining to any possible abduction or any crime that may result from the abduction of Mr Moses Morudi, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT You furthermore also request amnesty for any civil proceeding which may be instituted in this regard, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT I have no further questions, thank you - sorry, Madam Chair, I may just also raise the question that I did at the end with my re-examination of Mr Mathebula. Mr Matjeni states in his application on page 78 of the bundle, paragraph 9(a)(1), more-or-less the third/fourth sentence from the bottom - "I can recall that Smuts Mathebula and Chenny More told me that they had gone to fetch the man somewhere ..." Now up to there, do you concede that that is ...(indistinct) MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And the sentence then further continues "... and brought him there" Insofar as that may be interpreted as meaning that you and Mr Mathebula transported Mr Morudi to Compol or to the farm, that interpretation would not be correct. MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson, we last saw Mr Morudi, we handed him over from between Potchefstroom and Johannesburg, then after we met him at Compol building. MR JOUBERT Thank you, Madam Chair, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON For the sake of just completing his evidence-in-chief, won't you just canvass shortly the contents of Exhibit A and B with Mr More as well. MR JOUBERT I will do so, thank you, Madam Chair. Now Sir, you confirm that you saw Annexure A and B earlier this morning, that is the statement of Mr Prinsloo and Mr Dos Santos. MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson, I saw them. MR JOUBERT With reference to Annexure A, in paragraph 1 of paragraph 3 thereof, you will note that Mr Prinsloo indicates that he does accept any involvement in the abduction of Moses Morudi and that this person was handled by W/O Putter and Const Botha. Do you have any comments to this? MR MORE Prinsloo is the one who instructed us to go and fetch Mr Morudi. We were three, it was myself and Smuts and him in his office. MR JOUBERT In your application you also refer to Dos Santos and Ludick, as well as a further white male person, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Do you recall whether W/O Putter or Const Botha was present in this white Skyline? MR MORE I don't remember the third person, but Putter was not present. MR JOUBERT Okay. And with reference to Annexure B, that's the affidavit of Dos Santos, you will note in paragraph 3 thereof he denies any involvement with the abduction of Moses Morudi. Do you have any comment on that? MR MORE He was the one who fetched him from our car. MR JOUBERT I have no further questions, thank you, Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Do you refer to Dos Santos, Mr More? Are you saying Dos Santos is the one who fetched Morudi out of your car to put him into the white Skyline? MR MORE I'm referring to Dos Santos and the other two. Those are the people responsible for taking Morudi out of our car to their car. CHAIRPERSON Yes. In your earlier evidence you said only one person took him out of your car and put him into the white Skyline. Now what I want to know is, who exactly took Mr Morudi out of your car? MR MORE The three of them were surrounding our car and one of them took him out of our car, but I don't remember which among the three. CHAIRPERSON Now you also stated that Dos Santos is the one who approached you and he's the one who identified him from the photograph. Am I correct? MR MORE One of them said "it's him". I don't know which one among the three. CHAIRPERSON So you don't know who confirmed Morudi's identity, you can't say whether it's Dos Santos, Ludick or another white man? MR MORE I'm not able to certify that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON For how long have you known Dos Santos? MR MORE When I started working at Security Branch. CHAIRPERSON Which is when? MR MORE '84. CHAIRPERSON Had you been working closely with Dos Santos from 1985, until about '87/'88? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Jansen, do you have any questions to put to Mr More? MR JANSEN Thank you, Chair, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Jansen. Mr van den Berg, do you have any questions to put to Mr More? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you, Madam Chair, I do. Mr More, the instruction that was given to you by Capt Prinsloo, I understood you and if I understood Mr Mathebula correctly, it was just the three of you who were present at that time, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG What exactly was the instruction? MR MORE He told me that the person who they are looking for is Moses Morudi, he's hiding in Potchefstroom, then he gave us an address, then he told us "When you arrive there you use a certain name", but I don't remember that name. He told us that "You should tell him that that person instructed us to come and take you to exile, so that you will undergo military training". MR VAN DEN BERG Now we've heard from Mr Mathebula that there's a possibility that he might have used a name other than his name to introduce himself. Do you have a recollection of that? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG So is it correct then that you would have used a false name or an alias to introduce yourself to Mr Morudi? MR MORE Yes, it was not our practice to use our true identity in this kind of particular mission. MR VAN DEN BERG Do you recall the name that you used to introduce yourself? MR MORE I don't remember, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And the name that you used as the person who had sent you, you say you don't recall that name. MR MORE Yes, I don't remember that either, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG I've put certain suggestions to Mr Mathebula, you were present when I put to those suggestions to him. Is it possible that you might have used one of those names, Masina, Masango? MR MORE I don't remember, Chairperson, at all. I don't remember the name we used. MR VAN DEN BERG Were you armed when you went to fetch Mr Morudi? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you display the weapon to Mr Morudi? MR MORE No, Chairperson, he did not see them. MR VAN DEN BERG What was his response when you told him, when you told Mr Morudi that you were to collect him to go for military training? MR MORE He seemed prepared. MR VAN DEN BERG Had you been looking for Mr Morudi previously? Had you had instructions to see if you could find Mr Morudi, previously? MR MORE Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And had you been looking for him in Mamelodi? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson, we were looking for him in Mamelodi. MR VAN DEN BERG The name that you were told to use, that name was given to you by Prinsloo, is that correct? MR MORE You mean the name used in Potchefstroom or where? MR VAN DEN BERG That's correct. Prinsloo said "Go to Potchefstroom, use this name, say this person has sent you". MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you know that Dos Santos and Ludick would accompany you or would be following you? MR MORE Yes, we were informed that they would follow us. MR VAN DEN BERG Before you departed for Potchefstroom, did you discuss how this matter would take place with Dos Santos and Ludick? MR MORE Yes, we discussed that immediately we leave town they would wait for us there, then they would take him from us. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you travel down together in a convoy? MR MORE No, they were at a distance from us, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON May I interpose, Mr van den Berg. When this arrangement about how you were to travel to Potchefstroom and back was made, was Mr Prinsloo present? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson, he was the one who was giving instructions. CHAIRPERSON Was he the one who was responsible for arranging that you would go ahead and Dos Santos would follow you to Potchefstroom? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So at all times, Mr Prinsloo was aware that Dos Santos would be accompanying you, though not until Ikageng, but shortly before Ikageng, outside Potchefstroom. MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson, he was responsible for the arrangements. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you, Mr van den Berg. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you, Madam Chair. When did Mr Morudi realise that you were in fact not from the ANC, that you were in fact not there to take him for military training? MR MORE At the point when they took him at Potchefstroom. MR VAN DEN BERG Can I understand this correctly, did you stop when you saw Dos Santos or did it happen the other way round, that you had stopped and Dos Santos arrived? MR MORE I did not see them. I saw Smuts going beside the road, then he told me that they are coming. MR VAN DEN BERG So they arrived at the rendezvous point after you. MR MORE They came behind us. I saw only at the time when they were flicking their lights, but Smuts saw them before they passed, or when they slowed down. Then they parked their car behind my car, then that's where Smuts stopped the car. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you know what Mr Morudi looked like, had you seen a photograph of him previously? MR MORE No, Chairperson, I did not. MR VAN DEN BERG What did you know about Mr Morudi, what had you been told about him? MR MORE What I knew is that he was involved in the explosion incidents in Mamelodi and then again that he was military trained internally by MK. MR VAN DEN BERG And what did you think would happen to him once he had been handed over to Dos Santos? MR MORE I don't understand your question, Sir. MR VAN DEN BERG What did you think would happen to Mr Morudi once he was in the detention of Mr Dos Santos? MR MORE I thought they were taking him to Compol for interrogation. MR VAN DEN BERG And the last time that you saw Mr Morudi was at Compol, was it that day or the next day? MR MORE On the same day, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG On the same day. And you never saw Mr Morudi after that? MR MORE That is correct, that was the last time. MR VAN DEN BERG And the last time that you saw Mr Morudi, he was in the company of Capt Prinsloo, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Dos Santos? MR MORE Correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Ludick? MR MORE And together with Ludick. MR VAN DEN BERG Anybody else? MR MORE Yes, there were others, but I don't remember their identity. MR VAN DEN BERG Were you present when Mr Morudi was interrogated? MR MORE No, Chairperson, I was not present. MR VAN DEN BERG So the last time you saw this man he was in the custody of three policemen at Compol, is that correct? MR MORE That's correct, Chairperson, there were three together with others who were just at a distance, at the cars. They would be with something. MR MALAN Mr van den Berg, is this leading somewhere? This is the fourth time you've asked him this question. MR VAN DEN BERG I apologise, Chairperson, I'll move on. Was anything said to you as to where Mr Morudi was going to go? MR MORE I was not informed, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you anticipate that he would stay at Compol, or did you think he would be taken somewhere else? MR MORE I did not know because immediately we arrived, Capt Prinsloo released us to go home. I did not know their plans at that particular time. MR VAN DEN BERG You say you didn't know their plans at that particular time, did you find out what their plans were later? MR MORE Yes, I learnt later, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG What did you ...(intervention) MR MORE I learnt from Smuts that he saw him at the farm and then he was interrogated there. MR VAN DEN BERG And did Mr Mathebula tell you what he was interrogated about? MR MORE He only informed me that he saw him at Smit's farm, he did not tell me about the subject of the interrogation, but he told me that he was interrogated there. MR VAN DEN BERG Did he tell you who was responsible for the interrogation? MR MORE He did not tell me, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG You heard when I explained to Mr Mathebula that the family expected Mr Morudi to go into exile and so that when they didn't see him they were not overly concerned. Did you hear that? MR MORE I was not attentive at that particular time, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG But that when Mr Morudi did not return in the 1990s, when things changed in South Africa, they began to search for him. You obviously don't know that, but I'm telling you now. What do you think became of Mr Morudi? MR MORE I don't know what happened to him, but during our discussions, myself and Mr Smuts and Mr Matjeni, we suspected that he was murdered. Because he was not detained in the cells as was the procedure, he was taken to the tents and then the way he informed me that he was handcuffed and leg-cuffed, so we suspected that he was killed. MR VAN DEN BERG No further questions, Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr van den Berg. Mr Steenkamp. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you, Chairlady, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN Sorry, Chair, if Mr Motata could go please, I've got to check something. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? ADV MOTATA I've got none, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr More, ...(intervention) MR MALAN There's only one question, Chair. On page 101, Mr More, paragraph 9, your last sentence you say - "I recall indeed that during this time we were still working on his file" Now this seems to refer to a time after he had been seen on the farm. What are you saying with this sentence? MR MORE I was referring to his file, that the file was present even before he was abducted. So we were busy with his file before he was abducted. MR MALAN Well if you could read the whole paragraph, or maybe from the end of the fourth line. You say you went to take down the tents, you saw nobody else on the farm, you don't know what happened to Morudi, but you remember that you were still working on his file. MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. After this incident his file was not closed, so we were given his file after. MR MALAN Now can you tell what kind of work did you do on his file, can you tell us that? MR MORE That file was supposed to be taken to the activist's families to find out his whereabouts. MR MALAN Even after he had been abducted? MR MORE That is correct, his file was not closed after the abduction. MR MALAN So you had knowledge that he had been abducted, but you were still enquiring about his whereabouts with the family, is that what you're telling us? MR MORE That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN To what end or purpose? MR MORE We were not able to enquire from Capt Prinsloo, we did not know his intention when he gave us this file. MR MALAN Would my suspicion be correct that this was simply to confirm with the family the idea that he had gone into exile and that he was not in the hands of the police and therefore people were still looking for him? MR MORE That may be possible, Chairperson. MR MALAN In other words, a kind of cover-up. MR MORE That may be possible, Chairperson. MR MALAN Did you report back to anyone specifically on these activities? MR MORE We would report back to Capt Prinsloo, that would be the one who would give us further instructions after that, after reporting. MR MALAN Did you not tell Capt Prinsloo, but why are we asking these questions because we had already brought him to you, he was taken by Dos Santos and delivered at Compol and then taken to the farm? MR MORE At that time we did not have the prerogative to ask such questions because we were trying to save our lives. If you continue asking questions something may happen to you. MR MALAN Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Just on a follow-up on what has already been put to you by my colleague. Who instructed you to conduct these enquiries to Mr Morudi's family about his whereabouts, was it Mr Prinsloo directly? MR MORE They would write those instructions from the file, then they would book that file, then you'd get it on your pigeonhole, then from there you would read the instructions that you should go to a particular place to look for the whereabouts of a particular person. Then at times he would give those files to his juniors and those would refer those instructions to us. So I don't remember well as to whether it was himself or his assistants. CHAIRPERSON Would he have been aware of such instructions or enquiries having been made to Mr Morudi's family? Would you expect Prinsloo to have known that such enquiries were being made to Morudi's family? MR MORE He had full knowledge, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that? MR MORE Because if the file is supposed to be close it passed through him, it would be referred to him before it is closed. CHAIRPERSON You also stated that you had also received instructions from Capt Prinsloo to look for Mr Morudi prior to his abduction. Do you recall saying that? MR MORE I remember, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Can you estimate how long prior to his abduction you had to look for Mr Morudi? MR MORE It would be months. It would not be many months, it may be approximately three to four months. I don't remember well about the duration, but it was after some time. CHAIRPERSON Were you instructed by Capt Prinsloo to do the search on your own as Mr More, or were you instructed to conduct this search in the company of Mr Mathebula? Do you recall? MR MORE We were instructed together with Mr Mathebula. CHAIRPERSON Was anyone else also instructed to conduct the search of Mr Morudi? MR MORE I don't know, Chairperson, maybe he could have instructed others without my knowledge. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mathebula has already given evidence that to his recollection such instructions were given two to three weeks prior to the abduction of Mr Morudi, and you are saying that such instructions were given to you about three to four months prior to his abduction. MR MORE Because it's a long time I'm just making an estimation. It may be three to four months, but I'm not sure about that. CHAIRPERSON What did you do to conduct a search for Mr Morudi, subsequent to instructions and in compliance with the instructions of Capt Prinsloo? What did you do to effect such a search? MR MORE We used to go his house to look for him, then we'd find him not present. CHAIRPERSON Now where was his home where you conducted the search? MR MORE In Mamelodi, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you aware that Mr Mathebula was also using an informer to assist him in locating Mr Morudi? MR MORE I did not know, Chairperson, because if one uses an informer that would be his secret between him and his informer. CHAIRPERSON Did you have sight - you've already given evidence that you did not know Mr Morudi, you didn't know what he looked like. MR MORE Yes, I did not know him, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now how did you conduct a search on someone you didn't know what he looked like? MR MORE Even when we'll go to his place we would not identify ourselves as members of the police, but we would identify ourselves as friends to Moss Morudi. CHAIRPERSON Were you not given a photo of Mr Morudi by Capt Prinsloo? MR MORE I don't recollect being given a photograph, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So if you went to his home and even if he would have been there and he said Mr Morudi is not in, you wouldn't have known. MR MORE I would not know, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert, do you wish to re-examine Mr More? MR JOUBERT I have no re-examination, thank you, Madam Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr More, you are excused as a witness. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON The next applicant to give evidence is Mr Matjeni. MR JANSEN Correct, Madam Chair. Jansen on record. With your permission I call Mr Matjeni as a witness.