amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-27 PRETORIA 11 SAREL PETRUS NIENABER AM4391/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53799&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101228_pre_991027.htm SAREL PETRUS NIENABER (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER General you are an applicant for amnesty in this matter. You amnesty application is embodied in bundle 1 page 314 to page 322 (where you deal with this matter 315 to 317) is that correct? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER In your amnesty form you have also referred to paragraph 7(a) and (b) as not applicable, the same amendment to be granted in this case as well. CHAIRPERSON Accordingly done. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Do you confirm the contents of Exhibit A that you have studied and do you request that this be incorporated into your evidence? MR NIENABER I do so. MR VISSER And you have Exhibit B which is the evidence before this Committee. Do you confirm the correctness thereof except for certain mistakes which we will point out momentarily? MR NIENABER I do so. MR VISSER You have referred in January 1988 you were appointed as Divisional Commander of the Security Branch Soweto. Is that date 1988 correct? MR NIENABER No Chairperson, that is not correct, it was in 1989. MR VISSER And below you was Pretorius in the Intelligence Division? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER You have heard the evidence of Col Pretorius and you have beforehand had opportunity to read his statement. You say in paragraph 5 that you agree with these statements from paragraphs 4 to 27 of Exhibit B is that correct? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER In paragraph 6 you were also referred to the slaughter amongst police officers that you experienced during that time and you have said you have no statistics to support you but according to your memory two police officers on average died in the area of Soweto? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER In general, van der Merwe's evidence which was heard by the original Amnesty Committee on page 3 of the Judgment of Brig Cronje, Gen van der Merwe said that during the struggle of the past 989 police officers were killed country wide. Would this concur with your impression of what was ongoing at that stage? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER With regard to police officers? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER You have referred to the intelligence which the Security Branch depended upon and which you have referred to instances which gave rise to penetration operations which you referred to as false flag operations with regard to Mr Nceba and his unit and the members whom we are aware of here now. Do you confirm the information in Exhibit B, paragraph 28 to 42? MR NIENABER Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you say, according to the information that you had, you say in paragraph 11: "It was clear that the AK unit in Mofolo, Amakatadra was a hard nut to crack." Is that correct? MR NIENABER Yes, that is so. MR VISSER And the persons amongst whom Mr Nceba and of course his comrades you regarded as trained terrorists? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER And that information was indeed confirmed later by Mr Peter Lengene that they indeed received training in the use of AK47s and hand grenades, is that correct? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER You gave authorisation for this action. You have listened to the evidence of Col Pretorius and you confirm his evidence in Exhibit B and in your paragraph 14, paragraph 44 to 57. MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER Did you agree with him word for word as to what you had considered court orientated action, the possibility of a turning their heads and the regarding of the potential danger and all other options which you considered. MR NIENABER These were all the options we considered, yes. MR VISSER And did you come to the conclusion that in order to combat the danger, there was no other option than to eliminate them? MR NIENABER That was my opinion. MR VISSER And you say that in paragraph 23? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER You then gave the instructions and you left the execution thereof to Pretorius. MR NIENABER I left the execution entirely to Pretorius. MR VISSER Did he beforehand propose to you that the operation be executed with limpet mines, of which the delaying mechanism or the detonators were tampered with. MR NIENABER That's correct. MR VISSER Did you agree with that? MR NIENABER Yes, I did. MR VISSER And this was to prevent any suspicion and to act as a deterrent. MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER But these were aspects which came about after you had decided on the elimination, is that correct? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER And consequently you don't know anything of the practical execution of the operation and briefly it was reported to you, you say in paragraph 27 that one limpet mine had exploded. You cannot recall what the particulars were which were conveyed to you, but you know the operation was concluded. MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER If it was not completed successfully, you accepted that you would have heard of this. MR NIENABER Yes, if it was not successful, I would have been informed. MR VISSER And then consequently you made yourself guilty of the offences which you have described in paragraph 29 with regard to Grobelaar. Are you aware whether he was involved in the operation? MR NIENABER Not at all. MR VISSER As far as you know. MR NIENABER Yes. MR VISSER And then in paragraph 32 to 35, you mentioned your stance with regard to how you experienced the situation during that time and what your political motivation was. Is that correct? MR NIENABER That is correct. MR VISSER And then you request amnesty. MR NIENABER That is correct, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr van der Merwe. MR VAN DER MERWE I have no questions Madam Chair thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Mr Loader. MR LOADER I have no questions Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LOADER CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey. MR LAMEY No questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr van Heerden. MR VAN HEERDEN No questions thank you Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan MR MALAN Chair, I just want to cover one aspect. In your evidence summary you say that paragraph 27, that Col Pretorius had reported to you that only one limpet mine had exploded and that Nceba had died. MR NIENABER That is correct. MR MALAN Did you not ask him what happened to the other two? MR NIENABER I was afraid to ask him, MR MALAN Can you explain that to me? MR NIENABER I accepted that the other two persons had died, but I did not know how. MR MALAN So you accepted that they had been shot? MR NIENABER No, I accepted that they were dead, but I did not know that they were shot. MR MALAN Because in your application on page 7, you put it as a positive that you were not aware that the other two persons of the unit had been shot dead. MR NIENABER I was actually not aware and I was not informed but I had a good idea that they were dead and how they had died, I did not know, I did not ask. MR MALAN It is a strange world. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Gen Nienaber, why would a person in your position be scared to make inquiries about the other two persons who were part of the order that you had given Mr Pretorius? Why should you be scared to ask what had happened? MR NIENABER Honourable Chairperson, it is so that we acted entirely illegally, I did not even have the authority to give that authorisation. This was entirely unlawful and I did not want to complicate matters even further if there were any problems. All that Pretorius told me was that: "I sorted out this story" and I accepted thereby that he had sorted out this thing and what I thought by that was that the persons had to be killed as originally believed that we had to do, that we had to eliminate them and that they had been eliminate. In which manner, whether it not be by land mines, then it must have been in another manner and I did not want to ask him because it was an illegal story and I could cause further trouble if I knew exactly what had happened. CHAIRPERSON I understand that you left the execution of the operation to Mr Pretorius. That I can understand, but what I still don't understand is, why should you not proceed to find out how the operation was executed, now that you knew how one person out of three had been eliminated. MR NIENABER Honourable Chairperson, I must tell you that I just did not ask him, however strange that may sound, I did not ask him. CHAIRPERSON That's strange, isn't it? MR NIENABER ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON What's even stranger is what you have just intimated, that you didn't have authority to give such an order. Who was authorised? Who should have given such an order to have these persons eliminated, if not you? Who should have been the right person to have issued the order? MR NIENABER I believe no one. No one had the right to give such an order, it was unlawful. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you are saying you didn't have authority to give such an order because you had no right as a human being to take the life of another human being? Are you saying that in those terms? MR NIENABER I think I quite agree with you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but now I'm interested in the chain of command. Let's come back to the chain of command. Were you authorised, were you the person to have been able to give such an order, were you the right person? MR NIENABER Yes, I would be able to have given that order. CHAIRPERSON Now your order was based on the information that you had obtained from Mr Pretorius and no one else? MR NIENABER Correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was Mr Pretorius a reliable person? MR NIENABER Yes, he is a reliable person. CHAIRPERSON For how long had he been working under your command? MR NIENABER Well I arrived there in 86 and then I was second in command there, so to 89 it's about ... CHAIRPERSON Three years. MR NIENABER Three, four years. CHAIRPERSON So you trusted that what he said about his information and how he had tried to infiltrate, would be honest and reliable? MR NIENABER Correct, correct, because he usually gave me briefings on all aspects, not only on this specific. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You may respond to me in Afrikaans if you are more comfortable. MR NIENABER I'm sorry. CHAIRPERSON How many times, to your recollection, had you been briefed about the activities of this group, the Nceba group or as it has been previously called the AK Zone unit? MR NIENABER I cannot tell you exactly Chairperson, but let us say for at least four, five, six times from time to time I was briefed. MR MALAN Fortnightly? CHAIRPERSON Were the briefings done by Mr Pretorius directly to you? MR NIENABER Correct. CHAIRPERSON Were you aware of the system of verification Mr Pretorius was using in verifying the information of his sources, that would include the agents and the informers he was using? MR NIENABER Yes, yes I knew about that. CHAIRPERSON Were you aware that Mr Pretorius had caused Mr Lengene to infiltrate the so-called Nceba group? MR NIENABER Correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know how many members constituted the Nceba group? MR NIENABER I don't know how many members the whole unit encompassed but I only knew of three and it was this three that had been killed here. CHAIRPERSON But at all material times, at all briefings you were told of these three members that Lenyene had infiltrated? MR NIENABER Correct. CHAIRPERSON Were you told of the danger they posed in the township or the so-called AK Zone? MR NIENABER Correct. CHAIRPERSON And it was as a result of the two to three briefings that you've referred to that you became aware of the activities? MR NIENABER That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata. ADV MOTATA I've got non, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON And re-examination Mr Visser? MR VISSER Very briefly Chairperson. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER General is this the only amnesty application or the only incident for which you apply for amnesty? MR NIENABER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was this experience, was this an unpleasant experience? MR NIENABER Yes, it was. MR VISSER Did you want to know in finer detail? MR NIENABER No, I would like to forget about it entirely. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Nienaber you are excused as a witness. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER The question is are you going to excuse us Chairperson? MICROPHONE TURNED OFF MR VAN HEERDEN No I'm afraid not Madam Chair, I think it's the late hour that makes us do things like that. CHAIRPERSON You can be assured that my eyes are never affected by the lateness of the hour. This will bring us to the day's close of our proceedings. We'll commence tomorrow at 9 o'clock. Is that convenient to everyone? Thank you. Will that be convenient for the victims, Mr van Heerden, if we commenced at 9 o'clock? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure? Just find out. MR VAN HEERDEN They were present at 9 today. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We'll adjourn now and commence tomorrow at 9 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS