amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-28 PRETORIA 12 JAKOB FRANCOIS KOK AM3812/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53803&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101228_pre_991028.htm JAKOB FRANCOIS KOK (sworn states) MR MALAN Thank you, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr Kok, your amnesty application is embodied in bundle number 3, and on paginated page 50 up to and including 58, is that correct? MR J F KOK Yes, that is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE You confirm that you submitted this application on your own during 1996, without the assistance of an attorney, is that correct? MR J F KOK Yes, that is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE You then confirm the truth and correctness of that application, as it is contained therein and you request that the Amnesty Committee will consider this along with your viva voce evidence that you will give today. MR J F KOK Yes, that is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE You also state in that application, and also then - excuse me, Madam Chair, maybe just for practical purposes, I have placed another statement before you of Mr Jakob Kok. That will be Exhibit H. You then also state in your initial application on page 50, as well as here in Exhibit H, that you request that the amnesty application of Brig W A L du Toit, will also be considered and evaluated when they consider your own application. MR J F KOK Yes, that is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE If we can go to your application on page 50 of bundle 3, you also request that the Committee, as far as 7(a) and (b) is concerned, grant you the amendment to replace the "Not Applicable" with "National Party" and "Supporter", respectively. Is that correct? MR J F KOK Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON The amendment is similarly granted, Mr van der Merwe. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Chairperson. You may then proceed and briefly sketch your involvement as you have done in Exhibit H, from the bottom paragraph, 1. Please submit this to the Committee. MR J F KOK "My amnesty application stated clearly that we in the Security Branch, operated on a need-to-know basis. As members of the Technical Unit of the Security Branch, we received regular requests to assist operatives on ground level with approved operations and specifically with regard to technical assistance. We as members of the Technical Unit, were already involved in a previous occasion with the adjustment of detonators for handgrenades and a limpet mine, upon the direct instructions of Gen van der Merwe, the Commissioner of the SAPS, during the so-called Zero-Zero incident in 1985. After I had been notified by my legal representative on the 20th of October 1999, that Lt-Col Anton Pretorius had stated in his amnesty application that I would have been involved in the provision to him of three zero time delay detonators, it reminded me of the incident. I confirm that Anton Pretorius approached me on an unknown date with a request for three VZD1M detonators. He informed me that he needed these detonators for an operation which had already been approved by one of his commanders. I understood and accepted that these detonators would be used against the so-called liberation movements and that persons would most probably be killed. I associated myself with this and felt that it was part of the struggle which we waged against the liberation movements who wished to topple the State with violence. After this, I approached Lt-Col J Kok and requested him to assist me in preparing the detonators and to hand these over to Anton Pretorius, which he then did. Because our Commander was not present at that point in time, either Lt-Col J Kok or I informed him shortly hereafter of our action and he ratified it. At a later stage, Anton Pretorius contacted me and informed me that two of the detonators had malfunctioned and had created problems for them during the operation. He did not provide further details. During this action I realised that I was making myself liable for offences and delicts, including conspiracy to murder, murder and illegal possession of explosives and/or devices." MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you. You then also confirm the rest which appears on page 3, from paragraphs 10 to 14, which would incorporate your motives with regard to this matter, is that correct? MR J F KOK Yes, that is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE You then request that the Amnesty Committee would grant you amnesty as you have just requested and that it be dealt with as such. MR J F KOK Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE MR VISSER Visser, Madam Chair, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Loader? MR LOADER I have no questions, Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LOADER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Loader. Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY No questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr van Heerden? MR VAN HEERDEN No questions, Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN Mr Kok, I would just want to know, did you ever make any enquiries as to why these detonators had malfunctioned? MR J F KOK We discussed it amongst each other. Me and my brother discussed it between the two of us and we could not say with certainty, because we had provided these items in sealed containers, so it is possible that they may have been confused with other items which had been rendered harmless. One cannot really say what happened. MR MALAN Can you specifically recall, because you said that your brother handed it over to Pretorius? MR J F KOK Yes, he did the work, he worked with the detonators and he handed it over to Pretorius. MR MALAN But did he hand these over with other items as well? MR J F KOK No. It may be. He was busy with the modification of detonators at that stage. We took them out of the containers as they had been packaged, modified them and repackaged them. So it is possible that one of those containers or forms of packaging may have become confused. MR MALAN Do you mean with other detonators, that the wrong detonators may have been used for the operation, or have I misunderstood you? MR J F KOK No, the need would sometimes arrive that the detonating mechanism, not the detonator itself, but the detonating mechanism, had to be adapted so that it would not work at all. Kobus was busy working on an existing set of detonators and he had already replaced it into the cardboard boxes in which it have been originally packaged, so it is possible that the other detonators may have become mixed up with the original detonators. In other words, that he mistakenly modified detonators which had been modified already to never work properly. MR MALAN Is that the closest explanation that you can arrive at? MR J F KOK Yes, that is the closest explanation that I can offer as to why these detonators malfunctioned. MR MALAN Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? ADV MOTATA I've got none, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON You are excused as a witness, Mr Kok. MR J F KOK Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VAN DER MERWE The following applicant, Chairperson, would be Jakobus Kok.