amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-13 JOHANNESBURG 1 PETER SHABANGU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53807&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101315_jhb_991013.htm PETER SHABANGU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Honnorat. MR HONNORAT Yes, Mr Chairman, I will lead Mr Shabangu's evidence. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR HONNORAT Mr Shabangu, is it correct that you have made an application for amnesty concerning the incident which took place in 1993 resulting in the death of Mr Jacob Manoto? Is it correct that you are applying for amnesty concerning that incident? MR SHABANGU That's correct. MR HONNORAT Have you got knowledge of that incident? MR SHABANGU Yes. MR HONNORAT Can you explain to the court your knowledge of the deceased, Mr Jacob Manoto, prior to the incident of his killing? MR SHABANGU I didn't know him. MR HONNORAT Can you explain to the court, whether at the time of the incident, you were a member or a supporter of any political organisation or liberation movement involved in the struggle against apartheid? MR SHABANGU Yes. MR HONNORAT Can you give details of that to the house. MR SHABANGU I was a member of the ANC Youth League. MR HONNORAT For how long had you been a member of the ANC Youth League prior to the incident? MR SHABANGU I joined ANC in 1990. MR HONNORAT What was your reason for joining the ANC in 1990? MR SHABANGU I joined the ANC in order to fight against the political discrimination. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Honnorat, just a minute. Adv Bosman hasn't got any sound over her headset here. Where's the technician? Can you just attend to this headset here, please? MR SHABANGU Yes, you said you joined in order to ...(intervention) MR HONNORAT Fight against political discrimination? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR HONNORAT Can you explain to the Commission what was the attitude of the ANC and in general of the liberations movements towards people perceived in the community as being police informers? MR SHABANGU The ANC didn't accept that. They used to work in collaboration with the police and at the time we didn't trust the police. MR HONNORAT Now from your personal experience of your connection with the ANC Youth League since 1990, what was the attitude concerning what should be done with a person found to be a police informer. MR SHABANGU He should be killed. MR HONNORAT Have you got any knowledge of a meeting which took place on the 19th of April 1993, attended by members of the ANC Youth League in the Diepkloof area? MR SHABANGU Yes. MR HONNORAT Can you give some details of what happened at that meeting to the house. MR SHABANGU It was on the 19th, on Monday when we had a meeting. MR HONNORAT What was the meeting about? MR SHABANGU It was the ANC Youth League meeting. MR HONNORAT And what was discussed at that meeting? MR SHABANGU We were discussing about one boy who raped a woman. MR HONNORAT Yes, apart from that? MR SHABANGU And thereafter we had to discuss about two ladies. MR HONNORAT Who were these ladies? MR SHABANGU I don't know their names, I know that one of them is Sipho's sister and the other is Sipho's wife. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Honnorat. Did you say two ladies came in or did you say you discussed about two ladies? MR HONNORAT He said they discussed. MR SHABANGU MR HONNORAT What happened after that? MR SHABANGU Sipho's wife explained to us that Mr Manoto has requested the police to come and search their place because Sipho was suspected to have a firearm in his possession. MR HONNORAT What happened further at that meeting? MR SHABANGU We discussed the matter and we suggested that it should go to the Civic which was supposed to solve the problem. MR HONNORAT Was there any decision taken by the ANC Youth League at the meeting concerning this issue? MR SHABANGU No, we didn't take a decision. However, we referred them to the Civic Organisation to help them. MR HONNORAT What did the Civic Organisation do? MR SHABANGU I wouldn't be able to know. MR HONNORAT Was there somebody mandated by the ANC Youth League at the meeting, to go and speak about this problem to the Civic Organisation? MR SHABANGU No, the two complainants were supposed to go there because they were the people who had the problem. MR HONNORAT Did you attend any other meeting subsequent to the 19th of April 1993 in which the issue of the deceased as being a suspected police informer was raised and discussed? MR SHABANGU We were informed that there would be a meeting and that we are required to attend the meeting. MR HONNORAT Where was the meeting supposed to be held? At which venue? MR SHABANGU At Lutheran Church. MR HONNORAT Where is that, in which area is that? MR SHABANGU It is at Diepkloof Zone 5. MR HONNORAT What was the time of the meeting more or less? MR SHABANGU It was supposed to be 6 o'clock. MR HONNORAT In the morning or in the afternoon? MR SHABANGU In the afternoon. MR HONNORAT So what happened at that meeting? MR SHABANGU Before I went to this meeting, I first went to a lady who was an ANC Youth League member and thereafter I went to the Lutheran Church. MR HONNORAT Okay, what happened at the Lutheran Church? MR SHABANGU I found a lot of women in the church. MR HONNORAT Was there any discussion taking place? MR SHABANGU It was even before we entered the Church itself, we were standing outside. Yes, it's correct that they were discussing about someone else. MR HONNORAT What was the discussion about? MR SHABANGU The first lady to speak was Ms Tshabalala. MR HONNORAT Was she one of the two people who attended the 19th of April meeting, Sipho's sister, Sipho's wife, was she one of these two? MR SHABANGU No, she didn't attend that meeting. MR HONNORAT So who is she any relation to Sipho? MR SHABANGU This is Sipho's mother. MR HONNORAT So she was the first to speak and what did she say? MR SHABANGU She told us that police arrived at her home, they were looking for firearms. MR HONNORAT And then? MR SHABANGU And she explained that they were sent to her home by Mr Manoto. MR HONNORAT Did she say something else? MR SHABANGU No. MR HONNORAT You say she was the first to speak, who else spoke? MR SHABANGU It was Mr Makoba. MR HONNORAT Who is he in relation to political organisation, Civic Organisation, any organisation ...(indistinct). Can you establish the relation for the purposes of the house? MR SHABANGU He belonged to the Civic Organisation. MR HONNORAT Can you say more or less what his age was, Sir? MR SHABANGU He's an elderly person. He said that he saw the police cars at the place and he was busy preparing the, he was working at the garden and while he was doing that, preparing his garden, he did see the cars which were in Manoto's place, which left to go to Sipho Tshabalala's place and he further asked Ms Tshabalala what happened and Ms Tshabalala explained to him that the police were looking for firearms and they were sent there by Mr Manoto. MR HONNORAT Did he say anything further, Mr Makoba? MR SHABANGU No, he sat down thereafter. MR HONNORAT Did anybody else speak at that meeting? MR SHABANGU Yes. MR HONNORAT Can you say who? MR SHABANGU It was Themba Zondo. MR HONNORAT Did you know him before? MR SHABANGU Yes. MR HONNORAT Was he a supporter of the ANC? MR SHABANGU I wouldn't be able to know whether he was, it was just a person whom I knew. MR HONNORAT What did Mr Zondo say at the meeting? MR SHABANGU He explained that the relevant time he was coming back from work and his mother told him to go to a neighbour to ask as to what were the police doing at Sipho Tshabalala's place. He went to Sipho Tshabalala's place and he found Sipho's mother and he inquired, saying that his mother asked him to go there to find out what were the police doing at the house. CHAIRPERSON Tell us the whole story and I assume he's going to come and testify in any case so I don't know what the value of this is, but tell us what he said. MR SHABANGU And Ms Tshabalala explained that the police were looking for firearms and it was explained that these police were sent to the home by Mr Manoto. Themba went back home to report to his mother that Manoto told the police that Sipho had firearms in his possession. Themba sat down. MR HONNORAT Did anybody speak at the meeting, anybody else? MR SHABANGU Thereafter a certain man spoke. He suggested that we should try and elect elderly people who would go and speak to Mr Manoto. After that Mrs Gumede stood up. Mrs Gumede told them that those people inside, they didn't know anything about the struggle. MR HONNORAT And then? MR SHABANGU And she suggested that this person should be pursued or should be looked after and killed and that was the stage where we had to leave the place, to go to Mr Manoto's place. When we arrived at Mr Manoto we found him on the roof of the house and we started fighting with him. He was throwing stones at us and we were throwing stones back to him and we were great in number. Some entered in neighbours' houses, others entered Mr Zwane's house. Myself, I followed the group which entered to Mr Zwane's house. MR HONNORAT What did you do in Mr Manoto's house? MR SHABANGU After entering the yard, Mr Manoto saw us and he ran into the house and I was the first one in front to kick the door. In his bedroom, that's where we found him, inside, it was myself, Hector and Thobele. I'm the one who caught him. MR HONNORAT What did you do after catching him? MR SHABANGU We dragged him out and we took him out to the comrades who were outside and there were a lot of comrades outside. They started kicking at him and assaulting him. I plucked out an iron and I hit him three times on the head. MR HONNORAT What happened after that? MR SHABANGU Some comrades were assaulting him with stones and we pulled him to the vicinity of the gate and at the vicinity of the gate, I did hit him again. MR HONNORAT How did you hit him? MR SHABANGU I was hitting him on the head with the iron. MR HONNORAT And then what happened? MR SHABANGU And the other comrades continued to hit him with stones and a pickaxe and they started suggested, calling saying "Pete, there is paraffin, here is petrol" and the person who dosed him with those items was comrade Mandla and I set him alight and thereafter we left. MR HONNORAT Now you have explained to the house what you did during that particular day at the house of Mr Manoto. Can you explain I mean to the house why you did that? Why you took part in the assault together with those comrades? MR SHABANGU I will say that Mr Manoto was an informer and at that time, I mean, informers were not wanted in the townships. MR HONNORAT Was there any doubt in your mind that he was an informer, in fact? MR SHABANGU I wasn't, I didn't know, or I was aware that he was a "impimpi" and I didn't even know him myself personally. MR HONNORAT But when you went there to his house, were you convinced that he was a police informer? MR SHABANGU We had information from other comrades that the police would visit his place at night. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but the question is, when you went to kill him, did you have any doubts in your mind that he was an informer or did you accept that he was an informer? MR SHABANGU I was fully convinced that he was an informer. MR HONNORAT Now Mr Shabangu, if you were to go back to those days of the struggle, and you have to deal with a political opponent in the form of a police informer or a spy, what would be your political action as part I mean of a liberation movement in those days? MR SHABANGU To kill them because they were not wanted in the township. MR HONNORAT Was there any other reason why you attacked Mr Manoto, you did what you did on that night, other than the reason connected to the struggle you have explained to the house? Was there any other reason? Personal animosity, envy, financial gain, anything? MR SHABANGU There wasn't any other reason. We attacked him because he was an informer. MR HONNORAT I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HONNORAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Honnorat. Mr Chelopo, have you got any questions? No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CHELOPO CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair, I do have questions. Is it correct Mr Shabangu that you used an iron bar and poured paraffin on the deceased? MR SHABANGU Yes. MS THABETHE Why did you kill Mr Manoto? MR SHABANGU He was an informer. MS THABETHE And how do you know this? MR SHABANGU We were told by his neighbours. MS THABETHE So what you are saying is you acted on what you were told by the neighbours, is that correct? MR SHABANGU Yes, that's correct and also from other comrades we gathered that he was an informer. MS THABETHE Before Mr Manoto was killed, did you know him personally? MR SHABANGU No. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Honnorat? MR HONNORAT No re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HONNORAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Shabangu, you're excused, thank you very much. MR CHELOPO Maybe if I could ask one question, on second thoughts. I thought maybe I don't have a question, then on going through my minutes I see that I've got a question. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You're not excused yet, just hold on a minute, Mr Chelopo's got a question. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CHELOPO Mr Shabangu, you mentioned one Ms Gumede who was at the meeting, who said to you, who seemed to me she was the last speaker in that meeting. Can you recall her exact words? What did she say, the exact words, that led you to go out of the meeting? Can you recall the exact words please? MR SHABANGU She said that the women in that church didn't know anything about the struggle. MR CHELOPO Yes. MR SHABANGU She said we should go to this man and kill him and that's the time when we had to leave the church and go to Manoto's place. MR CHELOPO Were there only women in that church, who were supposed to be sent to Manoto, or were there men also because I hear you talk of Civic is Civic not composed of men and women? MR SHABANGU There were women and men in the church. MR CHELOPO Then why now women only, because if ever you posed the question, you asked people to go and represent you, I don't think the question referred to the women. Why did she specifically, I answered, directed a question to women. MR SHABANGU I won't be able to know. MR CHELOPO Were sent there at the time, women only or was there - okay to put it the other way, was the request forwarded directly to women only, or to the Civic? MR SHABANGU She was telling all the people in the Church and the comrades knew what they were supposed to do. MR CHELOPO They just acted even though Mrs Gumede couldn't have said those words, they would have just continued with their action, is that correct? MR SHABANGU I don't think so. MR CHELOPO Did Ms Gumede give the instructions? MR SHABANGU Who? MR CHELOPO Mrs Gumede. MR SHABANGU If Mrs Gumede didn't say that this person should be pursued and killed. Maybe it wouldn't have happened. MR CHELOPO You said the comrades would have just gone on with their mission, because they knew what they wanted to do. You are saying even though Mrs Gumede couldn't have said those things, is that correct? MR SHABANGU No. I'm saying that a comrade did inform us about Mr Manoto but we didn't have proof of that and after the neighbours came to tell us the same, we thought then this could be true because they couldn't just, I mean, start out any rumour which is false about him. MR CHELOPO In one of the statements that I read even though it's not yours, Mr Shabangu, I'm sorry, it says that the meeting was chaotic. Can you explain why that really, can you confirm why that really the meeting was chaotic? MR KOOPEDI Could I object, Mr Chairperson, related to that question, because that question relates to another applicant and that statement was not mentioned by the present applicant? CHAIRPERSON Yes, well he didn't say that, Mr Chelopo. MR CHELOPO Okay, I withdraw the question. Mr Shabangu, in that meeting, in the Church meeting, can you tell us the situation in that meeting? What was the situation according to your own direction? MR SHABANGU I believe that he stayed in Soweto and, but you should have known that in Soweto that if you're an informer, you were not wanted. MR CHELOPO Mr Shabangu, I'm asking your own perspective on the situation at the meeting, whether the meeting was a free flowing meeting or not? Your own perspective on the meeting, I'm not asking whether I'm from Soweto or not from Soweto, can you maybe explain on what I'm asking? CHAIRPERSON Mr Shabangu, somebody else apparently said that the meeting was chaotic, now what is your comment on that, do you agree or disagree with that observation, with that opinion, because it's somebody else's opinion in any case. MR SHABANGU I'd say people were angry. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV BOSMAN Just one question, why did you act in such a particularly savage way? You testified that you hit him with an iron bar and you hit him again with an iron bar and then you got petrol and you said you put the petrol over him and you lit the petrol, why did you act in such a savage way? MR ZULU Point of correction, Mr Chairperson, the applicant said initially that one of the comrades brought petrol and doused the victim or the deceased with petrol and the applicant set him alight. ADV BOSMAN Perhaps I could just refer to paragraph 11 on page 40, where it says" "I went in his house and found the paraffin in a bottle. I took it and poured it on Mr Manoto." I was actually referring to that, perhaps I should draw your attention to that first. If you could have a look Mr Shabangu on page 40. MR ZULU That's correct. In fact, on taking instruction, it was actually clarified that it is not the present applicant who actually poured petrol or doused the deceased with petrol, but it's one of the applicant who is still to adduce evidence to this Committee. ADV BOSMAN Chairperson, with respect, I think that the applicant should then clarify that to the Committee because the Committee has before it the statement that "I went in his house and found paraffin in a bottle." MR ZULU As the Committee pleases. ADV BOSMAN On page 40, paragraph 11. Mr Shabangu do you see that on page 40, paragraph 11? MR HONNORAT Perhaps Mr Chairman, the question is to be asked whether this present applicant can read English properly, whether the statement in English reflects that what he saw as having been written down. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR HONNORAT ; Because I think that has to be established first and then. CHAIRPERSON Yes, just a minute, Mr Shabangu, did you go into the house of Mr Manoto and find a bottle of paraffin in there? MR SHABANGU Yes, I went to Mr Manoto's house. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR SHABANGU The comrades came with a bottle of paraffin not myself. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't find the petrol, paraffin, sorry? Alright. ADV BOSMAN Sorry Chairperson, I am sorry, I thought you'd finished. CHAIRPERSON No, I was just going to repeat your question to him. The question is why did you act in that particular fashion towards Mr Manoto? Why did you hit him with the iron bar and all that? MR SHABANGU As I've already explained that Mr Manoto was an informer. Chairperson, as you might know that, I mean, we were living in difficult conditions and an informer was not wanted in the township. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV BOSMAN I just want to rephrase my question. Was it necessary to act in such a particularly savage fashion, to kill Mr Manoto? MR SHABANGU I would say yes. ADV BOSMAN Why? MR SHABANGU Because he was an informer. ADV BOSMAN I won't pursue this any further, thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ZULU Chairperson, just one question to the applicant. Mr Shabangu, now that you've related whatever you did at that time, do you regret your actions, do you feel sorry about what you did at that time? MR SHABANGU I am deeply sorry about it. MR ZULU Why at this stage do you feel sorry about it? MR SHABANGU What we did, or things that we did were bad and at this time I would like to ask the family of the deceased to forgive me because it was a bad thing that we did. MR ZULU Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ZULU CHAIRPERSON Yes, you're now excused Mr Shabangu. MR HONNORAT Mr Chairman, can I have a question resulting from ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, no, please, I mean either you or Mr Zulu handle the re-examination of the witness, we can't ping pong. I mean really, we're not ...(intervention) MR HONNORAT This is just a question resulting from Adv Bosman's previous question. CHAIRPERSON Well you see you'll have to make up your minds which one of the two of you are appearing for a particular witness, because I'm not going to allow you both to be jumping around and asking questions, it will make just a mockery out of this process. I won't accept that, so you've got to decide who is leading which of the applicants, or which witness and that person will deal with that evidence. So please. MR HONNORAT Yes, Mr Chairman, that's was interrupted when I was going to ask a question that was directly related to Adv Bosman's former questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now please deal with that and let's get done with this witness's evidence. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HONNORAT Mr Shabangu, in the political circumstances of the time, would you feel that politically it was the right option to deal with the police informer by killing him in a public open way or by doing it in a secret way, in a hidden way that nobody would know about it? MR SHABANGU We would have to kill the person in public. MR HONNORAT I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HONNORAT CHAIRPERSON Yes, now you're excused Mr Shabangu. Thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED MS THABETHE Mr Chair, may I approach please? CHAIRPERSON Sorry? MS THABETHE Can I approach? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I was about to, I was told that the people in custody have to depart at 4.30, so I was about to adjourn. Do you have to approach us before we adjourn, or can you do it after we've adjourned? MS THABETHE Before you adjourn Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Alright, let's hear. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF CHAIRPERSON Yes, we've come to the end of the day, and of today's proceedings. We will now adjourn and we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS