amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-14 JOHANNESBURG 2 PATRICK MOOSA MADONDO AM3289/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53810&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101315_jhb_991014.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Madondo, just remain standing. Are your full names Patrick Moosa Madondo? PATRICK MOOSA MADONDO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, please be seated. Mr Koopedi? EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, we will proceed. Mr Madondo, is it correct that you are a co-applicant in this matter which involves the armed attack on a police vehicle near Katlehong on the 18th of April 1994? MR MADONDO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now you've heard your co-applicant informing this Honourable Committee that on this day he was together with you, can you confirm that? MR MADONDO That is true, I was with him. MR KOOPEDI Now can you also confirm what he has told this Committee, in terms of the events of that day? MR MADONDO Yes, I do confirm what he said. MR KOOPEDI I missed on the interpretation, sorry. INTERPRETER He said he does confirm what the previous speaker said. MR KOOPEDI Now is there anything you would want to add to the evidence he has given? MR MADONDO He put it exactly as it happened, so there is nothing I can add. MR KOOPEDI Did you benefit anything financially from this incident? MR MADONDO No, it was part of activities and duties of protecting the community. MR KOOPEDI Do you think this Committee has been told the whole truth about the incident on this day? MR MADONDO Yes, he did tell the truth. MR KOOPEDI And just for the record, Sir, were you a member of any organisation in the area, a political organisation? MR MADONDO Yes, I was a card-carrying member of the ANC. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Koopedi. Ms Thabethe, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair. Mr Madondo, in the whole shoot-out, exactly what was your role, what did you do? MR MADONDO I was firing as well as I was trying to get a way of escaping. MS THABETHE And can you explain where you got these firearms from that you were using to shoot or to patrol the area? MR MADONDO It had been bought by the community who had contributed to the purchasing of firearms, so as to protect the same community. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Has the Panel got any questions? ADV BOSMAN Just one, to clarify please Chairperson. Mr Madondo, what was your intention when you shot, was it to kill someone? Because you said something "that I planned to escape", but I mean, you shot to kill, or didn't you? You were convicted of attempted murder, this is why I want to clarify this. MR MADONDO It was a means of trying to escape. ADV BOSMAN Yes, but if someone got killed in the process, you would have been quite satisfied with that. MR MADONDO It would have concerned me if that had happened, because it was not exactly my intention for that to happen. ADV BOSMAN Yes, but you did realise that someone could get killed when you shot. MR MADONDO Where the incident happened it was such that I could not really tell where my firearm was pointing at. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON What were you using? What firearm were you using? MR MADONDO An AK47 rifle. CHAIRPERSON That's a dangerous weapon, not so? MR MADONDO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Because you don't play when you shoot with an AK47, if somebody is hit by that thing then a person could be killed, not so? MR MADONDO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And people were shooting at you too, so if you got up, if you didn't hide, if you got up, what would have happened to you if you exposed yourself? MR MADONDO I would have been shot, there were bullets flying all around me. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, I mean it was a shoot-out, it was a mini-war going on there, not so? MR MADONDO Yes, we were involved in a war with hostel dwellers, the ANC and the IFP. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-exam, Chairperson. That will be the evidence of both applicants, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Koopedi. ADV BOSMAN Can I just clear up something please? CHAIRPERSON Yes, yes of course. ADV BOSMAN Mr Koopedi, I notice in the application forms of both your clients, that they're applying for attempted murder. There's been evidence that they were arrested with the firearms, what is their position in regard to amnesty on the charge of unlawful possession of the firearms and ammunition, or the firearms? MR KOOPEDI My instructions, and perhaps I might have to check again, but my instructions are, after they shot back at the police and there was a lull in firing, they ran away and disposed of, threw away the firearms that they had and when they were arrested, they were not in possession of any firearm. And my understanding was therefore that they were only convicted of attempted murder, nothing was said about the possession of weapons. But I might have to check if they ...(indistinct) ADV BOSMAN I may be wrong in my reading of the - I didn't check the names and the charges, but perhaps you could just check, you could perhaps just check because somewhere I did see something about unlawful possession of firearms. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and besides, I mean are your clients not asking for amnesty for that in any event, whether they've been convicted or not? MR KOOPEDI They will ask for amnesty for possession of firearms, perhaps an unknown number of ammunition in that they used firearms to do this, but I think in their application forms all they put in was attempted murder because they were convicted of that and no other offence. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but it is clear that they were involved in a shoot-out. MS THABETHE That's right, and they were in possession, yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so I don't know whether you need to at this stage. Do you want to clarify anything? MR KOOPEDI I believe, Chairperson, it will be a waste of time to consult on the issue, it is common cause that they were in possession of firearms. My instructions are to assist them in applying for amnesty. I would therefore request this Committee to consider the fact that they were in possession of firearms and ammunition at that stage. CHAIRPERSON Yes. No, that's fine. Mr Madondo, you are excused, thank you. You can stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, have you got any submissions on the merits of this case? MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT A short one, Chairperson. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, I submit that these two applicants before you, as evidence has shown, they were members of a Self Defence Unit in Katlehong, charged with the protection of the community. The facts are that there was a belief that there would be an attack from the nearby hostel on the community. These two applicants before you are part of a group that went to check on whether this attack would occur or not and whilst they were at their posts near the hostel, they saw two kombis, well known to them to be belonging to the hostel dwellers, they immediately opened fire on these vehicles and I believe this is simply because they were seeing people with whom they were at war. Unbeknown to them there was going to be another third dimension or third factor to this incident, the police came on the scene, fired at them, they also had to fire back at the police. My submission is that the political objective is in a sense, very clear that this was in a war situation where one political organisation wanted dominance over the other, or perhaps one political organisation wanted not to be dominated by the other. It is my further submission, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, that these two applicants gained nothing financially at a personal level and it is my further submission that I believe that all the relevant facts have been fully disclosed to you. And it is on those basis' that I will ask that amnesty be granted to both applicants. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Koopedi. Ms Thabethe, any submissions? MS THABETHE ADDRESSES I have no submissions, Mr Chair, but maybe - there's a point on the date of the incident that maybe we need confirmation on. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS THABETHE Because Mr Madondo's application seems to be saying that it happened on the 16th of September 1994, and that's the date of the sentence. CHAIRPERSON Of the sentence? MS THABETHE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What is the date of the incident? MR KOOPEDI The 18th of April, Chairperson, 1994. MS THABETHE Which is correctly indicated in the amnesty application of the other applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Thabethe. Is there anything else that you wanted to add, Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, for what it is worth and without any attempt to pressurise a decision on this matter, both applicants are in prison and have been advised that they may be released some time in February, and I thought I should bring this fact to the Honourable Committee, that the Committee should know that. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Koopedi, we've noted that. Is that February 2000? MR KOOPEDI I didn't get that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is that February 2000? MR KOOPEDI Yes, February next year. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR KOOPEDI May we be excused, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes, we are going to reserve the decision, we will endeavour to have it available as soon as circumstances permit, bearing in mind the tremendous pressure that the Committee is operating under, but we will do whatever is possible, in order to have a decision available as quickly as possible. So we'll reserve the decision in the matter. We thank you for assistance and you are excused. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Thabethe, I assume that's it only the matter that stood down since yesterday that is remaining on the roll? MS THABETHE That is correct, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I don't know, it might take you a minute or two to reset the place here, do you want us to just stand down for you to get the other people and the applicants? MS THABETHE They appear to be ready, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Are they immediately available or? MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair, they are. CHAIRPERSON Are they? MS THABETHE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Alright, then we won't stand down.