amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-14 JOHANNESBURG 2 MANDLA LAWRENCE THANJEKWAYO KILLING OF JACOB MANOTO - (CONT) https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53811&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101315_jhb_991014.htm CHAIRPERSON We are now continuing with the amnesty applications of Mandla Lawrence Thanjekwayo and others, which stood down from yesterday afternoon. We have heard the testimony of Mr Shabangu and that has been completed. Just for the record, the Panel is constituted as has been indicated, the appearances are as previously indicated. Mr Shilepo is not - is there a new appearance in the stead of Mr Shilepo? MR MASAGELA Mr Shilepo today unfortunately won't be available, so I'll be standing in for him, Mr Chair. My name is Morgan Masagela. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just again? MR MASAGELA Morgan Masagela. CHAIRPERSON And the surname? MR MASAGELA Masagela. CHAIRPERSON Masagela? MR MASAGELA Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Masagela. So you're on behalf of Ms Gumede? MR MASAGELA For Ms Gumede, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. So that is the one situation, and I see that Ms Vilakazi is just arriving. I was just going to enquire about her situation. Ms Thabethe, what is the position of Ms Vilakazi? Are you not sure? MS THABETHE I'm not sure, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Is it just that we have started too early for her? MS THABETHE Maybe, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON And she's lost her seat too! Yes, Mr Masagela, if you want to be a gentleman ... That particular table is reserved for the ladies. Yes, I think then we've got a full house, everybody is present. The appearances would then be as indicated previously on the record, except for the change in respect of the representation of Ms Gumede. Mr Honnorat, who is the next applicant? MR HONNORAT The next applicant would be applicant number 1 on the list, Mandla Lawrence Thanjekwayo. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Will Mr Thanjekwayo then come forward. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR HONNORAT I will be leading him, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You will be leading. MR HONNORAT Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MANDLA LAWRENCE THANJEKWAYO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please sit down. Mr Honnorat? EXAMINATION BY MR HONNORAT Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Thanjekwayo, at the time of the incidents which led to the murder of Jacob Manoto on the 61st of April 1993, were you affiliated with any political organisation or liberation movement? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes. MR HONNORAT Which was the organisation? MR THANJEKWAYO That was the ANC Youth League. MR HONNORAT What were you in respect of that organisation? MR THANJEKWAYO I would say that I took part in the assault and when I entered I could see that he was fighting to defend himself ...(intervention) MR HONNORAT One second, Mr Thanjekwayo, that was not the question. The question was, what was your position within the ANC Youth League at the time. INTERPRETER He says "Crime Committee", I don't know -he says Crime Committee. CHAIRPERSON Crown? MR HONNORAT Crime Committee. CHAIRPERSON Crime. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, Crime Committee. You're a member of the ANC Youth League's Crime Committee, would that be right? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, Crime Committee. CHAIRPERSON Yes, in Diepkloof township, Soweto, is that right? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, Diepkloof, Zone 5. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now we understand you. Thank you. MR HONNORAT Okay. Were you summoned to a meeting at the Lutheran Church on the 21st of April 1993? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, I was invited to the meeting. MR HONNORAT Did you attend it? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, I did. MR HONNORAT What was the outcome of the meeting, just briefly, the outcome. MR THANJEKWAYO A decision was taken that an informer should be killed. MR HONNORAT Okay. What did you do after that? MR THANJEKWAYO After that, since the place was full of the community members I was standing outside the gate, watching whether the police were coming or not and the comrades were busy with the meeting inside and when they finished to meeting, to go and attack, that's then when I joined them. MR HONNORAT What did you do in the course of the attack? MR THANJEKWAYO I took a stick which is for a pick axe and I followed the comrades into the yard. The comrades were already in the yard and one lady from that house was throwing at us with hot water and I hit her with the pick stick and I also participated in the assault. I ran, I saw a Smirnoff bottle, I took it to collect some petrol to put into it and when I arrived he was already dead and I poured petrol over him and Pete Shabangu set him alight. INTERPRETER Sorry, I will have to ask him to speak a little bit slowly, it's too fast. MR HONNORAT Yes. And the lady that you hit with that pick axe, could you see what was her relation to the deceased? MR THANJEKWAYO I think it was the deceased child. Her name was Beverley. MR HONNORAT So why did you take part in the attack against the deceased and why did you do the things which you've described to the house? - you did on that night. MR THANJEKWAYO He was said to be an informer in that he was working in corroboration with the police. MR HONNORAT Who communicated this information to you? MR THANJEKWAYO That was the community where he was staying and the person who told me about the meeting, that there would be a meeting, also informed me that he was an informer and I knew that they were going to discuss issues involving informers. MR HONNORAT When you participated in the attack and you committed the acts you have described to this house, were you convinced that in fact the deceased was a police informer? MR THANJEKWAYO I would say I didn't know this person very well, but I've already heard from the people who were staying with him, or next to him, that he was an informer. MR HONNORAT Okay. As part of the liberation struggle and as part of the Crime Committee of the ANC Youth League, what was your personal attitude, political attitude towards informers in your community? MR THANJEKWAYO We used to burn them. MR HONNORAT Did you obtain any financial gain from the acts you were involved in and associated with on that night? MR THANJEKWAYO No. MR HONNORAT Did you do anything that night against the deceased and the deceased child, Beverley, as you called her, because you had a personal grudge or spite and against the deceased and his family? MR THANJEKWAYO No. MR HONNORAT What was the political reason for the liberation movements to deal with police informers the way you have described to this house? MR THANJEKWAYO We were further - we were actually furthering the struggle, that was part of it. MR HONNORAT Okay. In retrospect, do you feel remorse about your participation in the attack that night and you feel like asking for forgiveness to the deceased's family? MR THANJEKWAYO I feel very sorry about it and if the family of the deceased was present here, I was going to ask for forgiveness and even in this present moment I am sorry for having committed the acts which landed me up in jail. MR HONNORAT Did you feel at the time of the act that politically you were justified in doing that? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, at the time when we went to attack it was necessary, because it was known that all other informers have to be burnt, you don't have to even discuss anything with them. MR HONNORAT I've got no further questions for this applicant, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HONNORAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Honnorat. Ms Vilakazi, perhaps I should start with you. Have you got any questions for this applicant? MS VILAKAZI I have a few questions, Honourable Chair, but firstly let me convey my apologies for - I was in the media room, I was not aware that the proceedings are starting. CHAIRPERSON Oh yes, we will consider that apology, Ms Vilakazi, we'll let you know. MS VILAKAZI Thank you, Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON No, it's perfectly in order, no problem. And whilst we are at it, Mr Shabangu gave evidence yesterday, not very dissimilar to the evidence has given now, but obviously you couldn't attend yesterday afternoon, so if you wanted to deal with anything that he had testified or if you've got any questions that you want to put to him, then you must just give us an indication, we'll get him back, he is available if you want to ask him anything. MS VILAKAZI As I indicated yesterday, Honourable Chair, that I would have some problems with regard to structuring the cross-examination, seeing that my clients are not part of the proceedings. So I would not be able to be well informed with regard to what to test actually. So it was on that basis that I indicated that with regard to the recordings, then I would use the right to cross-examine later on. CHAIRPERSON Yes, no, that is perfectly in order. I'm just saying that in the same way that you would be able, I assume, to deal with some issues that would be relevant for your client's case with this applicant if you want to deal with anything that you are able to at this stage, in respect of Mr Shabangu, then he's also available to come back for you to deal with that at this stage. Your client's rights have been reserved in any case, so that's not taken away at all you know, you would always be entitled to deal with further cross-examination at a later stage if it's necessary. MS VILAKAZI Thank you, Honourable Chair for that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but for the moment then you will deal with Mr Thanjekwayo. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI Thank you. Mr Thanjekwayo, you said that on the 21st of April, when the meeting was held at the Lutheran Church, you were standing outside, did I heard you correctly? MR THANJEKWAYO That's correct. Switch on your mike. MS VILAKAZI And you've also said that you were at that time a member of the Crime Committee, is that correct? MR THANJEKWAYO That's correct. MS VILAKAZI And you've also said that you knew that matters concerning informers were going to be discussed in that meeting, is that correct? MR THANJEKWEYO Yes. MS VILAKAZI Matters concerning informers, are they not - were they not part of the responsibilities of the Crime Committee? MR THANJEKWAYO No, there were other issues like rape or robbery in the township. Those are the issues that we will deal with. MS VILAKAZI Now which committee was responsible for looking at the questions of informers? If there was any. Or perhaps I could rephrase my question. Was there a committee which dealt with informers and if there was, which Committee was that? MR THANJEKWAYO I would say we used to call them Street Committees. Those were the people responsible for informers' issues. MS VILAKAZI Okay, then let us move on. You've also testified that while you were at the house of the deceased there's a lady who was throwing you with hot water. Did I heard you correctly? MR THANJEKWAYO ...(no English interpretation) MS VILAKAZI Who was throwing you with hot water. MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, that's correct, it was so. MS VILAKAZI Do you know who she was? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, I know her. MS VILAKAZI Who was it? MR THANJEKWAYO She was called Beverley. MS VILAKAZI Did you know her before? MR THANJEKWAYO I didn't her, I only came to know that she's Beverley while I was in prison. MS VILAKAZI Now where was she from, where did she get the water from? MR THANJEKWAYO She got the hot water from the house, her own house. It was at the time when we were coming to attack. MS VILAKAZI Was she inside the house at the time when you went to attack or was she outside? MR THANJEKWAYO We found her inside the yard. It was at the time when we were entering the gate. She was inside the yard. MS VILAKAZI Oh so you mean she was outside the house, but within the yard, with the water when you entered the gate? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, inside the yard but next to the door to the house. MS VILAKAZI Okay. I want to refer you to your application, on page 10 of the bundle. I beg your pardon, I seem to have made an incorrect reference. Okay, on page 10, it's your hand-written document. Was this written by you? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, I can see it. MS VILAKAZI In the fourth paragraph, the one that starts with "Thus, I justify this case politically ..." ...(intervention) MR HONNORAT Mr Chairman, can I intervene. The question was when it was hand-written, it was written by him and he says "I can see it", he did not answer the question. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I was going to intervene but I wanted to allow Ms Vilakazi just to finish that sentence. What is his response, just ask his response, did he write this statement here? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, I wrote this statement. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Sorry, Ms Vilakazi. MS VILAKAZI Thank you. Paragraph 4, it starts with - "Thus, I justify this case ..." Can you see that? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, I can see that. MS VILAKAZI The second sentence says "I was not when this crime was committed" Can you explain what you wanted to say there. MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, I can see that. I wanted to say that I didn't enter the hall while they were discussing the issue. That's what I was trying to say. MS VILAKAZI But it says "I was not when this crime was committed" It does not refer to the hall. MR THANJEKWAYO No, I was present when he was attacked. MS VILAKAZI So why did you say "... when this crime was committed" MR THANJEKWAYO I would say maybe this is a mistake because I was present when we attacked the man, I was present. CHAIRPERSON Mr Thanjekwayo, is this your handwriting? Is this your handwriting here? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, it is my handwriting. CHAIRPERSON You can write English? Are you able to write English? MR THANJEKWAYO I would say no, I can't. CHAIRPERSON What language do you normally speak? MR THANJEKWAYO I speak Zulu. CHAIRPERSON And have you been to school? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, I attended school. CHAIRPERSON What standard did you complete at school? MR THANJEKWAYO Standard two. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you write this in Zulu? MR THANJEKWAYO I would just say that this was a mistake. CHAIRPERSON Yes, alright. Ms Vilakazi? MS VILAKAZI Can I refer you to the letter that is dated 13/11/95, written to the Truth Commission. CHAIRPERSON Where is that? MS VILAKAZI It starts on page 7. I want to refer him to page 8 of the bundle. The tone of the letter is that there are some people who were found guilty, but who were not there when this thing happened. Is that correct? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, that's correct. MS VILAKAZI Then on page 8, the second sentence "Only I, Peter Shabangu, Patrick ..." ... I suppose it's supposed - it meant Nyaluka ... "... and Thobile Tshabalala, were comrades and those who were not caught but involved ..." Can you clarify that please. MR THANJEKWAYO I wanted to say that there were people involved in the incident who were not caught. MS VILAKAZI Are those the people that you are referring to by name? MR THANJEKWAYO No, not those ones I quoted there, but there were other people who were involved in the attack. Most of them were not arrested. MS VILAKAZI The problem is that the sentence is not very clear, so I'm just trying to get the message of the sentence. You're referring to yourself, Peter Shabangu, Patrick Nyaluka, Thobile Tshabalala "...were comrades and those who were not caught but involved ..." Would I be right to interpret it to mean that yourself and those that you named were comrades but you were not caught? MR THANJEKWAYO You'll be correct. MS VILAKAZI Would I be correct to say you were not involved - you were not caught, but involved? MR THANJEKWAYO That's correct. MS VILAKAZI But then you were sentenced, is that not correct? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON Doesn't this sentence mean that this applicant and those others were comrades and the others who were not caught were also comrades? MS VILAKAZI Honourable Chair, I've been trying to get the sense of the sentence and the applicant ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, it's a typed version of something which is not before us, I don't know, I haven't seen the original of this thing but at least this typed version of course you know is not as clear as it could possibly have been, but it looks to me as if, just taking that sentence, that that is the kind of sense that the writer of this letter was trying to convey, that there were other comrades who were involved but who were not caught, apart from these comrades who were caught. MR THANJEKWAYO Yes. MS VILAKAZI But with due respect, Honourable Chair, I have tried to get the explanation from him and I said would I be correct to say that he was not caught, but he was involved, and he said I would be correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I don't know, he says he passed standard two. So I don't know what sort of weight can be attached. It's obviously nonsensical, he's sitting, he was arrested, he says he was involved. So you know, we must take the objective facts here you know, otherwise we go around in circles. MS VILAKAZI I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI ADV BOSMAN Ms Vilakazi, perhaps I could just assist you here. If you look at it in context, he gives the names of people who were not caught, but involved, in the following paragraph. "Hector Thobile, Ice Mafike and Bongani Sifa" In the context it's quite clear what he meant there. MS VILAKAZI I'm indebted to you. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF CHAIRPERSON Yes, have you got any other questions, Ms Vilakazi? MS VILAKAZI No further questions, thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Oh I'm sorry, I thought that you still had something else. Yes, Mr Masagela? MR MASAGELA Thank you, Mr Chair. I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MASAGELA CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair. As a by-the-way, Mr Chair, on page 7, on the issue that was canvassed by my learned colleague, paragraph 3, it would appear that the applicant clearly stated that he was fully involved in the killing. I just wanted to draw that to your attention. ADV SANDI Yes, in his evidence-in-chief as well he places himself fully in the scene of the incidents. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Thanjekwayo, why did you assault the daughter of the deceased? MR THANJEKWAYO She was throwing hot water at me and the other people when we were entering the place. MS THABETHE How would you justify that politically, or to the political objective that you wanted to achieve? MR THANJEKWAYO ...(no English interpretation) MS THABETHE I'm not sure whether ...(intervention) MR THANJEKWAYO I would say that we didn't actually aim to assault but we had to threaten her a little bit before we can proceed to attack the father. MS THABETHE Maybe let me rephrase my question. You see you've indicated that from the meeting the order was that you should go and attack the informer, the police informer, that was Mr Manoto, and I understand you justifying that politically, but now I want you to justify why Beverley was assaulted by you and how is that political. MR THANJEKWAYO I will say we only assaulted the lady because she poured water at us and we didn't seriously assault her, we just I mean, assaulted her to get out of our way and we continued. MS THABETHE I'll leave it there, Mr Chair, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Sorry, Mr Chair, can I indicate that I do have the hand-written statements, if you need them. I have them in my possession. CHAIRPERSON Of this thing that we ...(intervention) MS THABETHE Of all the typed versions, yes. CHAIRPERSON Of all the typed versions. MS THABETHE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I assume you would have checked them. MS THABETHE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON And I would assume that you're happy with the typed version. MS THABETHE So far I am. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Then I don't think we're going to strain our eyes to try and decipher the hand-written versions. We are doing irreparable damage to our eyes through doing that, you know we have to read through such a lot of hand-written stuff that we must decipher, that it's not a pleasure at all. I thought my handwriting was bad. Are you done, you have no further questions? MS THABETHE I have no further questions, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Has the Panel got any questions? ADV BOSMAN Yes, thank you, Chair. Mr Thanjekwayo, if I may just refer you to page 8 of the bundle where you state that you are deeply worried about the following because they are innocent and then you give the names of Vusi Fakude and Sipho Tshabalala and Themba Zondo and Mandla Mbatha. Are they all here, these four people? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, they are present. ADV BOSMAN And now why do you say that they are innocent, were they not there? MR THANJEKWAYO When we were attacking I didn't see them myself and that's the reason why I say they were innocent. ADV BOSMAN Mr Interpreter, can you just repeat that, I didn't quite follow. INTERPRETER When we were attacking the deceased they were not present, I didn't see them. He says when they were attacking the deceased he did not see them. ADV BOSMAN Were they comrades? MR THANJEKWAYO I will not be sure, but I can only state that I didn't see them when we were attacking the place. ADV BOSMAN Did you see them at the meeting? MR THANJEKWAYO As I've stated that I was outside, I didn't enter the place. I could see comrades coming into the church and I didn't see them. ADV BOSMAN Did you speak to them in prison at all? MR THANJEKWAYO I didn't get a chance to talk to them or ask them where they were. ADV BOSMAN Have you never spoken to them since you've been charged? MR THANJEKWAYO I did speak to them after their arrest. ADV BOSMAN And what did they tell you, were they there? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, they said they were present. ADV BOSMAN Do you know them well? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes. ADV BOSMAN Now if they told you they were present, why do you say you are deeply worried because they are innocent and they deserve to be free? MR THANJEKWAYO I regarded them as people who were innocent. I mean despite the fact that later I discovered that they were present, after I have had a discussion with them and they told me so. ADV BOSMAN Did you discover this before you wrote the letter or after you'd written the letter? MR THANJEKWAYO I had already returned the letter. ADV BOSMAN Now I'm not clear on this. You told me that you spoke to them after you were charged and you said you did not have time to speak to them in prison, now when exactly did you discover that they were present there? Can you just clarity that please. MR THANJEKWAYO I would say that I spoke to them after I have written this statement of mine and then thereafter I met them and they started telling me that they were present in the Lutheran Church during the meeting, but when the other comrades proceeded to go and attack, they didn't got to the place of the attack. ADV BOSMAN So is this what you still believe now? They told you that they did not go to the place of the attack, is this your final information from them? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, that's correct. ADV BOSMAN And just one more question, Mr Thanjekwayo. Why do you want Hector Thobile, Ice Mafike and Bongani Sifa to face the law? Why do you specifically ask the Committee to make it possible for them to face the law and to be prosecuted? MR THANJEKWAYO It is painful because I was arrested myself, but I mean, they were present when we did commit the act, unfortunately they were not arrested and brought to book. ADV BOSMAN But do you feel they should be arrested now? MR THANJEKWAYO Yes, I would say so. ADV BOSMAN Did they testify at the hearing perhaps? MR THANJEKWAYO They were not present. ADV BOSMAN Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Honnorat, any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HONNORAT Just one question, Mr Chairperson. When the statements were written up for the application for amnesty, were they written up on behalf of the applicants because they were uneducated? INTERPRETER Can you repeat your question please. MR HONNORAT At the time that the statements were written up on behalf of the various applicants for amnesty, were they written up on behalf of them because the applicants themselves were uneducated? MR THANJEKWAYO They completed most of the form. MR HONNORAT Just one last question. Do you know where Mr Fakude and Mr Tshabalala stay? Where do they reside? MR THANJEKWAYO I don't know. I heard that Fakude stayed next door to the deceased, but I didn't know that myself personally. MR HONNORAT I've got no further questions in re-examination. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HONNORAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Honnorat. Mr Thanjekwayo, you are excused, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED