amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-14 JOHANNESBURG 2 CHARLES FAKUDE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53814&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101315_jhb_991014.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Honnorat, who is the next applicant? MR HONNORAT Mr Chairperson, the next applicant is Mr Fakude, Mr Charles Fakude. CHAIRPERSON Mr Fakude, I want you to please stand and give your full names for the record. CHARLES FAKUDE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please be seated. Mr Honnorat? EXAMINATION BY MR HONNORAT Mr Fakude, at the time of the incident which resulted in the killing of Jacob Manoto, in 1993, were you an actual member or a supporter of a political organisation, liberation movement involved in the struggle, committee, which had a relation to a political organisation or liberation movement at the time? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MR HONNORAT Can you explain what was your position. MR FAKUDE The ANC. MR HONNORAT Were you part of any committee? MR FAKUDE I was a member of the Street Committee. MR HONNORAT Do you know the deceased, Mr Jacob Manoto? MR FAKUDE Yes, he was my neighbour. MR HONNORAT Did you attend any meeting on the 21st of April 1993, at the Lutheran Church in Diepkloof, in Zone 5? MR FAKUDE Yes, that's correct. MR HONNORAT Can you say anything which happened at the meeting as you saw it, or any participation on your part at that meeting? MR FAKUDE I did participate in the meeting. The meeting was called so that the Street Committee and the elders could resolve the problem with regards to Mr Manoto. MR HONNORAT What was the problem? MR FAKUDE The problem was that Mr Manoto was an informer. MR HONNORAT How was the problem solved? MR FAKUDE A person in his condition was punished the same way that he was punished, by death. MR HONNORAT As a neighbour of Mr Manoto, did you see anything suspicious which made you believe, before the incident, prior to the date of the incident and prior to the date of the meeting at the Lutheran Church, that he was in fact a police informer? MR FAKUDE Yes, there were instances. MR HONNORAT Yes, can you tell us about that. MR FAKUDE In most instances Mr Manoto did not associate himself with the community, instead the police used to frequent his home, their vehicles would be parked outside his home. And it then happened that later on he sent the police to go to the Tshabalala home to search for firearms. MR HONNORAT As far as your participation in the incident which led to the eventual killing of Mr Manoto at Mr Manoto's house, what contribution did you make? MR FAKUDE If it had not been established that he was an informer he would have not suffered the fate that he did ...(intervention) MR HONNORAT Wait one moment, the question was, the incident which resulted in his killing, at the house of Manoto, now are to the house of Manoto, did you participate in those events which led to his killing and if so, in which manner? MR FAKUDE It was permitting the comrades to use my yard to gain access into the Manoto house and also that I assisted in them gaining that access, but I did not really physically assault him. Moreover, I could have assisted Mr Manoto by telephoning for help, but I decided against it because of what he was. That is the role that I played. MR HONNORAT So was your reason for permitting the comrades to use the yard of your own property to gain access to the house of the deceased, based on the fact that he was a police informer and that you hated him for that? Was that your reason? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MR HONNORAT When you were permitting them to gain access to his house, did you know that that would probably result in his death or might result in his death, considering the large size of the group? MR FAKUDE I knew that already, from the moment that they left the meeting, proceeding to his home. It was known to me as to what was going to happen to him. MR HONNORAT And did you reconcile yourself willingly and supportively with that almost foregone conclusion, as you put it? MR FAKUDE That is correct, because if I did not associate myself I would not have also given the testimony that he was indeed an informer. CHAIRPERSON Where did you give that testimony, at the meeting? MR FAKUDE Yes, I was the second person to testify. CHAIRPERSON And you say that you allowed them to use your yard but you also helped them to gain access to the property of Mr Manoto. Is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON In which way did you help them to gain that access, apart from allowing them to use your yard? MR FAKUDE I opened the window so that they could use it to get onto the roof. CHAIRPERSON Was that the only way that they would have been able to get onto the roof? MR FAKUDE There was no other way because his wall was very high and it has a razor wire on top. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Honnorat? MR HONNORAT As a neighbour of the deceased, did you see him usually locked inside the house, with the house locked and well protected? MR FAKUDE Please repeat that question. MR HONNORAT As a neighbour of the deceased, Mr Manoto, did you see him usually with the house door locked and well protected by things? MR FAKUDE As I mentioned before, he distanced himself from the community because his gate was always locked and his family would always be inside the yard, locked in. MR HONNORAT Now was there any chance of gaining access also via the property of accused number 2, Sipho Victor Tshabalala? MR FAKUDE No, it is too far. MR HONNORAT Were there any family members of yours present at your house and your yard at the time of the incident? MR FAKUDE No, there were no members of my family in the yard, but it was just the other people in the community who were present. MR HONNORAT Now would it have been easy for a whole group of comrades to gain access of the deceased without your assistance of letting them in through the yard and opening the window so that they could get onto the roof? Would it have been easy for a huge group of people to do so without that assistance? MR FAKUDE No, because he had a burglar gate which was chained, the walls were also very high. MR HONNORAT Now is there anything else you want to say about your participation in the incident of that relevant date, which you haven't said so far to the Honourable Panel? MR FAKUDE Yes. I want to state that I am very deeply sorry for what happened to my neighbours. I have spent a lot of time in prison and I have thought about this matter and will request the family to forgive me. What prompted this whole thing was the situation at the time, an informer was not wanted in the township. MR HONNORAT Mr Chairman, if I can just have one word with the applicant concerning his application, because it was brought to me at the time that the applicant has been actually I mean, to the table? CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. MR HONNORAT I'm indebted to you. CHAIRPERSON Won't you just switch off the microphones. MICROPHONES SWITCHED OFF MR HONNORAT I've got no further questions for this applicant, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HONNORAT CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I didn't have the headset on. What is the position, Mr Honnorat? MR HONNORAT I've got no further questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You've got no further questions, alright. Ms Vilakazi, any questions? MS VILAKAZI I have some questions, Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI Mr Fakude, your house is, or your house was at the time of the incident, in the immediate neighbourhood of that of Mr Manoto, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI And your house and Mr Manoto's house were joined, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI And Mr Manoto had a wall surrounding his house, he built a wall to surround his house, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI And at some stage you had a dispute with him concerning that that wall encroached on your property, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI How did you relate with Mr Manoto generally? MR FAKUDE We were on good terms because we discussed this matter because when I used to close my gate, Mr Manoto complained that it made a noise for him, ultimately I ended up not being able to close my gate. But we discussed this matter and he even offered me help, he gave me a pole with which I fixed my gate. MS VILAKAZI Did you have good relations at all times, particularly after the incident concerning the wall and your gate? MR FAKUDE We were not very close except that we would greet and ask after one another's health, because as I explained earlier he did not really associate himself with the people. MS VILAKAZI But you have just said that you used to greet each other and talk to each other, wouldn't you say that's relating well? MR FAKUDE We were no longer able to discuss matters of general interest as neighbours, our only interaction was limited to just greeting. That is why I say our relationship was not that good. MS VILAKAZI You have said in your testimony that Mr Manoto was an informer, is that what you knew or what you were made to believe? MR FAKUDE It was something that I was informed of and I was convinced of it because I used to witness police vehicles parked at his gate and moreover, when he sent the police to the Tshabalala home he confirmed my suspicions that yes, indeed he was an informer, because of his closeness to the police. MS VILAKAZI How many times did you see police vehicles parked at his place? MR FAKUDE Several times, because when I return from work I will see these cars parked and sometimes I will see the police - I would see him taking the police to the gate. So I used to see these cars often. MS VILAKAZI Did they go to his place during the day? MR FAKUDE ...(no English interpretation) MS VILAKAZI Did the police go to Mr Manoto's house during the day? MR FAKUDE Normally they would be there during the day, but they sometimes, once in a while maybe you would see one vehicle parked at night, but I would normally see them during the day. MS VILAKAZI So he was freely relating with the police, he was not hiding that fact, is that correct? MR FAKUDE Yes, he was free. MS VILAKAZI Is that not inconsistent with the behaviour of an informer? MR FAKUDE I beg your pardon? MS VILAKAZI I mean relating freely with the police, is that not inconsistent with the behaviour of an informer? MR FAKUDE He did not hide his close relationship with the police. At that time we would hold meetings at different houses in the community because we did not have a venue for our meetings, but there was never a meeting held at his home and he was very open and free in his relationship with the police. MS VILAKAZI But you have not answered my question. My question was, the conduct of Mr Manoto relating freely with the police, not hiding his relations with the police, is that not inconsistent with the conduct of an informer? MR FAKUDE I do not know because he himself as a community member, he was aware that if you were close to the police and you were seen to be close to the police, what implications that has. MS VILAKAZI Did you at any stage alert him to the fact that his relations with the police are inconsistent with the wishes of the community? MR FAKUDE He was the sort of person that there was no way I could have discussed such a matter with him. MS VILAKAZI Do you mean to say that he was not approachable? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI I see. Now talking about the date of the incident, you were at the meeting - I'm talking about the 21st of April 1993, were you at the meeting at the Lutheran Church? MR FAKUDE Yes, I was present. MS VILAKAZI What decision was taken concerning Mr Manoto? MR FAKUDE A decision was taken to go call him and return him to the church, but on arrival at his home he was in a fighting mood and therefore the fight broke out between him and the comrades. MS VILAKAZI So are you saying the decision was not to kill him, but to call him to the meeting? MR FAKUDE He was supposed to be fetched and be brought to the meeting and answer to these allegations and the decision would have been taken thereafter, but when people arrived at his home he started fighting with the comrades. MS VILAKAZI Who was sent to collect him, or who was supposed to collect him? MR FAKUDE We elected certain people to go out and fetch him and it became apparent that we as the elders were not taking this matter as urgently as we should and the comrades suggested that he should be fetched and that is when everybody went out. MS VILAKAZI So are you saying the whole group that was attending the meeting was the one who was supposed to go and collect Mr Manoto? MR FAKUDE That is so. MS VILAKAZI Then you said in your testimony that you knew already when you left the meeting, that the action that was going to be taken would result in his death. MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI So why did you think that the action would result in his death, if the purpose was to go and take him in order to talk to him? MR FAKUDE I say this because of the manner in which the comrades left as they went to fetch him. MS VILAKAZI Now arriving at the place of Mr Manoto, the impression that I gained from your testimony is that you went to your place, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI So you did not go into Mr Manoto's house or yard, is that correct? MR FAKUDE I went into my own yard, not his. MS VILAKAZI Why did you not go into Mr Manoto's house, because you were part of the group that went to take him out? MR FAKUDE It was becoming dark and I wanted to light up the house so that I could check and see if the stones that were being thrown at Mr Manoto's house did not damage my own house. MS VILAKAZI Are you saying when you arrived there he was, the stones were already being thrown around? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI Does that mean that you arrived after the people who were throwing stones? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI Okay. And then, after you assessed the damage, what then did you do? MR FAKUDE I only left my house when they were already outside and they had dragged him out of the house and they were setting him alight. MS VILAKAZI I want to understand the sequence correctly. When you arrived at the scene stones were already being thrown around and you went into your house to check whether your house has been damaged, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI And then you only left your house when Mr Manoto was being burnt, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI Between those two periods, what were you doing? MR FAKUDE As mentioned before I was just safeguarding my home, that it does not get damaged. I even reprimanded some comrades who wanted to throw a petrol bomb into the house. MS VILAKAZI So you were concerned with your house, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI You were not taking part in the attack on Mr Manoto and his family, is that correct? MR FAKUDE I did not take part physically. MS VILAKAZI I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Vilakazi. Mr Masagela? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MASAGELA Thank you, Mr Chair, I just have a few questions. Mr Fakude, in your testimony you said you were present at the meeting of the 21st of April 1993, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MR MASAGELA Do you know the lady by the name of Anna Gumede? MR FAKUDE Yes, she's my neighbour. MR MASAGELA Did you see her in that meeting? MR FAKUDE Yes, we were together as members of the Street Committee. MR MASAGELA Did she at any stage address the meeting? MR FAKUDE Yes, she did, because seemingly we were delaying in sending people out to collect this person and she expressed the opinion that we were delaying these proceedings, but this person should be fetched there and then. MR MASAGELA Tell us exactly what she said in that meeting. MR FAKUDE She said "You elders do not know anything about the struggle, this person should be fetched". That is when the comrades left. MR MASAGELA So that's the only thing that she said? MR FAKUDE Yes, when she uttered those words the comrades went out rushing to the Manoto's home. MR MASAGELA Mr Fakude, in your testimony you said that the decision that was taken in that meeting was that Mr Manoto should be taken from his home and brought to the meeting, is that correct? I mean, ja, to the meeting at the church, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. MR MASAGELA Did Ms Gumede at any stage say that Mr Manoto should be killed? MR FAKUDE No, she did not say he should be killed, she said he should be fetched. MR MASAGELA No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MASAGELA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Masagela. Ms Thabethe? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Fakude, in your amnesty application form on page 4, I would say it's the last paragraph 10(b), you say - "I was not part and parcel of the people who took part in the incident. According to what I heard from the comrades, was that the deceased was a police informer, so they had to do away with him." My question is, when did you hear this from the comrades? MR FAKUDE ...(no English interpretation) MS THABETHE Yes. MR FAKUDE I learnt of it on a Monday evening. MS THABETHE What I'm asking is - maybe let's start here. At what date did the incident take place where Mr Manoto was killed? What day was it? MR FAKUDE It was on a Wednesday. MS THABETHE It was on a Wednesday. MR FAKUDE Yes. MS THABETHE And when did the comrades tell you, was it before the day of the incident? MR FAKUDE I learnt of it on the Monday before the incident. MS THABETHE Maybe let's start here. At what day did the incident take place, where Mr Manoto was killed? What day was it? MR FAKUDE It was on a Wednesday. MS THABETHE And when did the comrades tell you? Was it before the day of the incident? MR FAKUDE I heard of it on the Monday before the incident. MS THABETHE And then you also say on page 4 first paragraph, you say "On the above-mentioned date, time and place, the comrades occupied my house and I assumed that it should be told that I should not do anything that I should later regret, for trying to save my neighbour, because they were going to attack my next-door neighbour." When did the comrades tell you this in relation to the incident? Was is before or after the incident or during the incident? MR FAKUDE Please repeat your question. MS THABETHE I want to know when did the comrades come to your place and tell you that you should not do anything that you would regret, for trying to save your neighbour? MR FAKUDE On the same day that he was killed. MS THABETHE Was it after the meeting or before the meeting? MR FAKUDE After the meeting. MS THABETHE And then on the next page you say "I only did", unfortunately I can't read your handwriting very well, it reads something like: "I only did what I was told to do because they threatened me with my life, that if I did not come they were going to cut off my electricity and my life was going to be endangered" When were you told this? When were you threatened with your life? MR FAKUDE I do not know about them threatening me. What I do know is that at the time there was no other way that I could do. MS THABETHE Can you please show him the form? MR FAKUDE It was filled in by Mr Nkosi. MS THABETHE So are you saying that you did not tell Mr Nkosi that you were threatened by these people? MR FAKUDE No, I did not tell him about me being threatened. MS THABETHE Did you tell this to your attorneys? MR FAKUDE About this incident? MS THABETHE Yes, that what is written here is incorrect, you never said that people came to threaten you. MR FAKUDE I am saying this now. MS THABETHE So on the day of the incident, what would you say your attitude was? Did you support the act that was about to happen of killing Mr Manoto and did you associate yourself with it? MR FAKUDE I did associate myself with the act because of the relationship that he had with the police and also for the reason that I had received reports from the neighbours that he had sent police to their homes. MS THABETHE Coming to the Judgment on page 95, I just want to ask you, because you've indicated that you spoke at the meeting about Mr Manoto, I just want to find out a few things. Did you, at the meeting, speak about the dispute that you had had over the wall and the fact that it encroached on your property? MR FAKUDE Yes, I did. That was in addition to what Mr Makoba had expressed at the meeting. MS THABETHE Did you also, at the meeting that day, address the meeting about the fact that the deceased had accused you of making noise in your home? MR FAKUDE Yes, I did. MS THABETHE And what was the motive for you to talk about that dispute between you and your neighbour? What did you want to achieve by telling the meeting that because it had nothing to do with whether he was a police informer or not? MR FAKUDE That was to the effect that he should rather go and stay with the police instead of the community. MS THABETHE But would you agree that your dispute with him had nothing to do with the fact that he was a police informer or not? MR FAKUDE Yes I would agree with you. MS THABETHE On page 98 of the Judgment, it's indicated there that Mrs Manoto says she saw you entering the dining room from her roof and you were one of those people who took her out. Do you agree with this? MR FAKUDE I dispute that. MS THABETHE Also the son, Marvin, testified to the fact that he saw you in the yard and you were armed with a stick. Do you agree with this? MR FAKUDE I was in my yard, this is true, as I was assessing the situation. MS THABETHE Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Thabethe. Has the Panel got any questions? ADV BOSMAN Mr Fakude, in your application form, there are also other statements, but before I put that to you, who filled out the form? Did you say Mr Nkosi? Who filled out the form for you? MR FAKUDE Mr Nkosi. Ephram Nkosi. ADV BOSMAN Who is he? MR FAKUDE A comrade who is the chairperson of our structure in the prison. ADV BOSMAN And you affirmed this form under oath, before a Commissioner of Oaths, is that right? If you turn to the last page. MR FAKUDE Yes, I did sign when I was told to do so. ADV BOSMAN And it says there that you knew and understand the contents of the declaration. MR FAKUDE Well, I did not read what he had written down because we were under time pressures. ADV BOSMAN Did you know what was in it? You did not read it, but did he tell you what he had written? MR FAKUDE Yes, he did. ADV BOSMAN So why did you sign it? MR FAKUDE I signed after he had told me what he had written in the form, but I have just learned of the other things that I do not agree with. ADV BOSMAN It is stated in the form that you tried to stop them, not to, I think it's ".....murder my neighbour. That that could solve the matter in a good way, but my plea fell on deaf ears." Did you know that was in the form? MR FAKUDE That is something that I mentioned in Court, but not in my application form. ADV BOSMAN No, but it is in the application form. My question is, did you know that it was written in the application form? MR FAKUDE No. ADV BOSMAN What did Mr Nkosi tell you, what did he write in the application form? MR FAKUDE I did not get that question. ADV BOSMAN What did Mr Nkosi tell you, what had he written in the form? MR FAKUDE He just informed me that he was finished and that I should sign. ADV BOSMAN So where did he get this information from? MR FAKUDE I did tell him about what I said in Court. He questioned me as to what I said in Court and I told him. ADV BOSMAN And did you then tell him that that what you said in Court was not right, it was not the truth? MR FAKUDE Yes, I did tell him. ADV BOSMAN And what did he then say to you? MR FAKUDE Well he seemed to agree with me that you are likely not to tell the truth in Court and I should tell the truth to the TRC, but I don't understand now why he wrote all of that, but unfortunately I did not have time to go through it and read it because we were under pressure. Mine was the only application form left. ADV BOSMAN Okay, if I can just get this - it's more a statement than a question. He told you that you must tell the truth, is that correct? MR FAKUDE That is correct. ADV BOSMAN But in spite of that, he told the untruth in the form, is that correct? MR FAKUDE It surprises me that he wrote this on my form, because that is exactly what I explained to him, as to what I said in Court. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination, Mr Honnorat? MR HONNORAT Just one aspect. CHAIRPERSON Yes. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HONNORAT Ms Vilakazi mentioned about two periods, Sir, the time you were assessing a possible damage to your property and your exit into the yard when you noticed that he already grabbed the deceased and burned him to death. In between those two moments, did you continue allowing the comrades free access to the house of the deceased? MR FAKUDE Yes, I did continue because ultimately they dragged him out of the house and then they set him alight, then that was when I left my own yard. MR HONNORAT Did you do that, I mean, out of malice, spite, ill feeling towards the deceased, personal rancour, because of the previous disputes? Any reason other than a political reason? MR FAKUDE I did not hold any personal grudge against him except for that action that he took which involved the whole community, the action of bringing the police to the Tshabalala home. MR HONNORAT I've got no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HONNORAT CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Honnorat. Mr Fakude you're excused. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, can you just give us an indication, according to the Correctional Services, until what time are we able to proceed today? Can you just get an indication from them? MS THABETHE Mr Chair, I've indicated to them that we have two more applicants who still have to testify. They say they prefer that they continue in testifying, instead of coming back tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Oh. MS THABETHE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So they're able to accommodate us later, we can carry on? MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Until what time? Oh, till we finish? Because we've got addresses and so, argument and everything else still. MS THABETHE Sorry Mr Chair, are we going to continue with argument, considering the fact that we've reserved the right for Adv Vilakazi and the victims? CHAIRPERSON Yes, no, we're going to continue. We're going to continue to wrap up this aspect of things. MS THABETHE Do we need, I'm just assuming, do we need the applicants during argument? CHAIRPERSON Presumably not, depending on what their legal representatives' views are, subject to their views. MR HONNORAT I don't believe it's necessary for applicants to be here for argument. CHAIRPERSON Yes, alright. MS THABETHE Mr Chair, I was going to suggest that if, maybe people are tired after the last applicant has given evidence and if we have to come back tomorrow, we just come back for argument, instead of coming back for evidence. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I suppose it will make little difference. I don't think we're going to be able to depart from the city in any case by the end of the night or the day, but let's proceed, let's proceed with the other applicants. Correctional Services seem to be in a position to accommodate us. Yes, the interpreters will just have to give us an indication if they are not able to proceed, or if they need to catch their breath or whatever. So we've got the two applicants left. I don't know whether the interpreters actually interpret argument, I'm not sure. I don't see any real serious need to interpret argument, so it might be that even they could stand down after we've heard the evidence, because I know they've been going on for some time. Is that so? Alright. Yes, I'm told that they, sometimes they normally - but they must give us an indication. I mean, I know they've been going on for some time. INTERPRETER Yes, maybe I should just come in here. It has been quite a long day and we were of the opinion that if there are two more persons still to give testimony, maybe it would serve everyone's interests better if we adjourn today and go on tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Won't it assist you if you only need to interpret the evidence and be released after that? INTERPRETER Yes, that might go some way in assisting. CHAIRPERSON And not being called upon to interpret the arguments. We're trying to accommodate the public as far as we can, but we also take into account other considerations, of which one of them is the capacity of our staff to deal with matters, so I'm quite sure the public would understand if at the end of this very, very long gruelling session in respect of interpreting the evidence, we were to excuse the interpreters from interpreting the arguments. INTERPRETER As the Committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think let's complete the evidence of the two remaining applicants. It will also accommodate the Correctional Services, to know that they don't need to physically come back to this venue. MR HONNORAT Mr Chairman, there is only one applicant available and that is Victor Sipho Tshabalala. CHAIRPERSON Oh I see, okay, well that's better then. MR HONNORAT And I call Victor Tshabalala.