amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-10-19 CAPE TOWN 2 JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO AM6368/97 MURDER OF MR HENRY GEORGE BEETON AND MR FREDERICK CASPER JANSEN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53822&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99101828_ct_991019.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning, we want to start the proceedings. For the record, it is Tuesday the 19th of October 1999, we are continuing with the amnesty hearings at Cape Town. The Panel is constituted as has been indicated on the record earlier. The matter that we'll be hearing this morning, is the application of Johannes Africa Hlapo, amnesty reference number AM6368/97. Mr Crossley, do you want to put yourself on record for the applicant? MR CROSSLEY Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. My name is Malcolm Crossley, I'm the legal representative for Mr Johannes Africa Masweng Hlapo, in his application for amnesty, under amnesty reference number AM6368/97. This is an application by Mr Hlapo, for amnesty arising out of his actions which resulted in his conviction of the charges of participation in terrorist activities in contravention of Section 2.1(a) read with 1.2.2, 4.5 and 9 of Act 83 of 1967, as amended, and the murder of Mr Henry George Beeton and the murder of Mr Frederick Casper Jansen. The facts and circumstances surrounding the events of 11 August 1980, are set forth in the judgment of Williamson J, which forms part of the bundle and the affidavit of Mr Hlapo, which is file of record with the TRC. I ask leave to call Mr Hlapo to give evidence. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Crossley. Ms Patel, do you just want to put yourself on record before we proceed with the application. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence. For the record, both the next-of-kin of the deceased, Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen, are present. They are not formally opposing the application at this stage, but reserve their rights to do so. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Patel. Yes, do you want to present the evidence of your client, Mr Crossley? MR CROSSLEY Yes, I call Mr Hlapo. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Hlapo, will you please rise. Your full names are Johannes Africa Masweng Hlapo, is that correct? JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Yes, Mr Crossley. EXAMINATION BY MR CROSSLEY Mr Hlapo, you filed an affidavit in support of your application for amnesty. Could you please take the Commission through your affidavit. My client, Honourable Chairperson, has elected to read through his affidavit in support of his application for amnesty. MR HLAPO Thank you. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, Mr Hlapo, just before you do that. The affidavit doesn't form part of the bundle before us, so for housekeeping purposes we will call the affidavit Exhibit A. Sorry Mr Hlapo, you can proceed. MR HLAPO Thank you. "My name is Johannes Africa Masweng Hlapo. I am an adult male, currently 39 years of age, with ID number 6010160540881. I currently reside at 12782, Ravel Street, Delft South. My telephone number is, though Your Worship it's not working presently, is 955-3761. I am currently employed as an organiser in the organisation known as Kumbula, the Centre for Healing, an organisation charged with the duties and responsibilities of the exhumation of the bodies of freedom fighters who were killed in and during the struggle for the liberation of South Africa, which bodies are currently buried in various African States. I am competent and authorised to make this affidavit and the facts deposed to herein are within my personal knowledge and belief and are true and correct. I am domiciled and resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Province of the Western Cape. My application for the granting of amnesty in terms of Section 18(1) and Section 20(1), the exhubic ...(indistinct) of my criminal record in terms of Section 20(10) of the Act of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, number 34 of 1995. The act stems from the gross violation of human rights committed by me together with a number of others, though the killing of two adult white males, namely Mr Henry George Beeton, Mr Beeton and Mr Frederick Casper Jansen at Klipfontein Road, Crossroads on the 11th of August 1980. The facts and circumstances which are set out herein below are a true copy of the court record, together with the sentencing record, will be furnished to the Committee and collated with the bundle of documents submitted to the Amnesty Committee, for ease of reference. At the time of the death of Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen, I was a supporter of the political organisation and a liberation movement known as the African National Congress (ANC), and acted at all times bona fide in furtherance of a political struggle which was waged by the African National Congress against the former State. I associated myself with the acts and omissions committed for the purpose referred to in (a) of Section 20(2) of the Act. The motive, context and legal and factual nature, objectives and relations between my act, omissions or offence and the political objective pursued will be set out herein below. In and during 1976, I joined the struggle against the former State of the Republic of South Africa, at the age of 16 years, Your Worship, and I was more inclined towards the aims and objectives of the Pan Africanist Congress (PAC). In and during the early part of 1979, I changed my allegiance from PAC to the ANC, due to the fact that I believed that the political objectives of the PAC was stagnant. I did not support their broad and radical objectives to send all white people back across the sea from whence they had allegedly come and the fact that the PAC assumed that all white people were oppressors, which belief I found to be unacceptable. Arising out of the killing of Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen, I was arrested on the 5th September 1980 and imprisoned pending and during the course of my trial, together with 18 others in the then Supreme Court of the South Africa Cape of Good Hope Provincial Division, before the Honourable Mr Justice and assessors. In the trial I was named accused number 12. I was found guilty of three counts with I was charge and sentenced to the below-mentioned terms of imprisonment - Charge 1 - The participation in terrorist activities and contravention of Section 2(1) read with Section 1.2.2 and 4.5 and 9 or Act number 83 of 1967, as amended. In that charge I got five years imprisonment, Your Worship. Charge 2 - Murder of Mr Beeton. For the murder of Mr Beeton, I got 20 years imprisonment. Charge 3 - The murder of Mr Jansen. I also got 20 years imprisonment. Which sentences were ordered by the court to run concurrently. A true copy of the court record, together with the sentencing record will be filed of record and collated with the bundle of documents submitted to the Amnesty Committee, for ease of reference. Pursuant to my conviction and sentence as set out above, I was in prison on Robben Island, under prison number 26/83. Where I served as a prisoner until May 24, 1991, when I was released from prison. Just to remind the Commission or the Commissioners, that during my release we were on hunger strike, the hunger strike that took us almost 24 days and I was released from Somerset Hospital and then we were on Robben Island. The historical and political facts and circumstances preceding, during and surrounding the death of Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen, are summarised broadly in the judgment of Mr Justice Williamson at the trial. However, I refer herein and highlight certain facts and circumstances relevant to my application for amnesty, in order to illustrate and comply with the requirements of Section 20(1) and 20(2)(a) and 20(3) of the Act. At the time of the incident in which Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen were killed, there were bus boycotts, school boycotts as well as ...(indistinct) boycott in Guguletu, Nyanga and the surrounding townships. At that time, Your Worship, I was living at NY112, number 149 at Section 3 in Guguletu. At the time, as a result of the aforesaid boycotts, there were no buses operating from Nyanga East. On 11 August 1980, I first attended the Nyanga East bus terminus in order to assist people to board private taxis in furtherance of the bus boycott. Thereafter, together with certain other supporters of the ANC, we proceeded to the Assembly of God in Nyanga East where we were to hold a commemorative service in commemoration of deaths of certain supporters of the ANC who were killed on August 11, 1976 in the Cape Town area. Whilst we were waiting at the church, the priest refused to open the church in order to allow the crowd to have the commemorative service. I approached the priest, a Reverend Werner, and I remonstrated with him and told him that his refusal to allow the crowd to commemorate the death of comrades who were killed on August 1976, showed sympathy with the apartheid regime. Thereafter he relented and gave the crowd permission to hold a commemorative ceremony. The commemorative service was held and there were many speeches by supporters of a number of organisations, including the ANC, the PAC and AZAPO. I also spoke at the service. The crowd at the church was excited and volatile. During the service I reported back to the crowd as to my efforts in finding out what had happened to a number of comrades who had been tortured in prison in the Cape Town area. I advised the crowd that the apartheid oppressors of the people were killing the liberators and that the people of South Africa should increase the struggle in order to liberate South Africa from the oppressive apartheid regime. After the meeting the crowd left the church and moved along ...(indistinct) Drive, towards Klipfontein Road. There were supporters of many opposition political organisations, namely the ANC and the PAC and AZAPO and they were singing freedom songs. As they were walking along the road, when we reached Klipfontein Road and barricades had already been erected in Klipfontein Road, the crowd was stopping buses and all government motor vehicles and other unauthorised motor vehicles from entering Crossroads. At approximately (I will dwell on this, Your Worship). At approximately 15H15, a white motor vehicle driven by Mr Beeton, appeared along the road and travelled towards the barricades. The motor vehicle stopped shortly before the barricades. The driver did not get out. The crowd, including me, began throwing stones at the motor vehicle, but the driver remained in the motor vehicle. The stones damaged his motor vehicle extensively and a number of stones hit him, rendering him unconscious. Various members of the crowd pulled the driver out of the motor vehicle, however I did not help to pull Mr Beeton out of the vehicle. After Mr Beeton had been pulled out of the motor vehicle, the crowd dragged him onto the road. After Mr Beeton had been pulled out of his motor vehicle, various members of the crowd, including me, threw heavy stones at him whilst chanting and singing freedom songs. After Mr Beeton was stoned, he was left for dead on the road. Shortly after the incident in which Mr Beeton was stoned, a bakkie driven by a Mr Jansen, drove along Klipfontein Road towards the barricade. The motor vehicle stopped a short distance before Mr Beeton's motor vehicle and the driver attempted to reverse and turn the motor vehicle around. The driver of the motor vehicle appeared to miss a gear and the motor vehicle stalled. Shortly after the motor vehicle stalled the chanting crowd surrounded his motor vehicle and the motor vehicle was stoned with heavy stones and bricks. The driver of the motor vehicle refused to get out. I, and together with other members of the crowd pulled him from his motor vehicle and threw him to the ground. Mr Jansen sat on the road next to the driver's door of the motor vehicle. The crowd including me, continued to stone Mr Jansen. A member of the crowd opened the petrol cap of the motor vehicle and a paper was inserted into the opening of the petrol can. Set alight, the petrol ignited immediately and set Mr Jansen alight, as a result of which Mr Jansen jumped up and ran and jumped into a pool of water near the road. Shortly after Mr Jansen had jumped into the pool of water, an Army motor vehicle approached the barricade along Klipfontein Road. The crowd also stoned the Army motor vehicle, using the trees next to the road as cover. The Army motor vehicle then turned around and drove off without picking up the two men who had been stoned. Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen were left in the road with Mr Jansen's burning motor vehicle and the crowd left the scene and proceeded to Nonxolo Lower Primary School in Crossroads, which was our meeting point for the making of petrol bombs. After we have made petrol bombs at Nonxolo Lower Primary School, groups of people moved out with the petrol bombs with the intention of stoning an petrol-bombing government motor vehicles in Lansdowne Road. I was arrested on 5th September and convicted in the aforesaid trial. In participating in the death of Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen, I was acting as a supporter of the ANC, an organisation which was involved in a struggle for the liberation of the people of South Africa. My actions were bona fide in furtherance of such political struggle waged by the African National Congress against the State, with the objectives of establishing a legitimate government of the people of South Africa. I am truly remorseful for my actions which led to the death of Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen. My actions were not motivated by criminal purposes and objectives, but were motivated by political reasons and objectives set out above. I have no way of knowing how painful it must be for the families of Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen to lose their loved ones. I offer my deepest apologies to the families of Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen. I ask for forgiveness for my actions. In the circumstances, I humbly pray that the Committee on Amnesty, grant my application for amnesty and the expunging of my criminal record as set forth in the application to which this affidavit is attached. Here it's my signature with all my names printed on this paper. This affidavit was signed yesterday, on the 18th October 1999. I certify that before administering the oath as it is known to the Commission, so I am satisfied that everything that has been said here it's true, but nothing else true. And to just round up the whole thing. It has been my wish and I have taken an initiative to ask for this amnesty to be granted for me. I came to the TRC to meet the families of Mr Jansen and Mr Beeton because I believe that all South African people, we need to come together and be open to each other about what we did and we did not do. So it has been my wish and hope that one day even before I die, that I should meet these two families and say to them honestly and openly that I apologise for all what happened. And I want them to understand what I did, I did, not because I wanted to satisfied my ego, I did it because there was a pressure on our shoulders as black people who under oppression at that time, we were suffering at that time. A black person was oppressed. South Africa created two worlds, a white world and a black world right inside the country, within the same borders. So therefore with this I would like to promote the spirit of reconciliation to the families and to every South African. I thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Crossley, is there anything else? MR CROSSLEY Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. May I just ask Mr Hlapo to elaborate on certain aspects, in particular in regard to the choosing, the choice of those people who were the victims of the violence on that particular day. Could you please elaborate. MR HLAPO It will be known that on the 11th of August - let me first start back in 1976. When the uprising started in South Africa, it was precisely because of the Afrikaans which was introduced to black schools. In 1980 in particular what had happened, during that year there were these events which political events and what had happened on that particular day on the 11th of August, an old woman which I don't known the woman, was assaulted in Nyanga Station in Guguletu, by a white policeman, which this policeman was very young to that woman. And this was the day where we were supposed to hold a commemorative service at Nyanga East in particular. So when the youth of that time got this report they were angry. And it should be known that at that time every white man was an enemy to the black people and every white man which was seen around the area at that time, so he was a target. So targets were not chosen according to military operations as it is known, targets were indiscriminate. Every white man, as long a that person is white he will be attacked at that time. MR CROSSLEY Can you - in the record of the proceedings, as set out in the judgment of Mr Justice Williamson J at the time, there was a reference to an incident in which there was a stabbing of one of the victims. Could you please elaborate on that. MR HLAPO Yes, Sir. There is a saying and there was a saying even in my trial in court, that I personally took a knife from accused number 17 and stabbed Mr - between Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen. I want to put it straight, I was there personally, I was involved in the accident, there was no knife involved there. What I saw there it's stones and some knopkieries and some sharp instruments, but I personally I never took a knife from accused number 17 and stabbed one of the two victims which were attacked on that time. MR CROSSLEY I have no further questions at this time. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CROSSLEY CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Crossley. Ms Patel, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Hlapo, on the 11th of August there was a meeting at the church, can you tell us who organised this meeting? MR HLAPO On the 11th of August, first of all in the Western Cape, or all over South Africa it is known, like in Jo'burg and Soweto, the 16th of June it's known that it's the day the youth started. Those people who were operating on the bus boycott and myself involved, we went to the church and met spontaneously at the terminus and went to the church and said that this our day, we need do commemorate our fallen comrades, so let us go to the church. We didn't have a specific venue, but because Mr Werner's church was so close to the terminus we went there. MS PATEL So who exactly is it that decided that everybody should go to the church? Who decided that everybody should go to the church? MR HLAPO We decided. MS PATEL Who is "we", Sir? MR HLAPO I mean myself and some other people like accused number 17. MS PATEL And his name? MR HLAPO In the name of Bongani. He was there, but we were discussing as we were many there as a crowd, that we should take that church. In fact, I personally came with the suggestion that there's a church next to us. The church which were nearer to us, to where we were, it was the Dutch Reformed Church. The Dutch Reformed we deliberately, in fact I deliberately said that they should not go to the Dutch Reformed Church because it is being associated with the apartheid regime. So I said let us take the Assembly of God, instead of going to that church. MS PATEL Okay. Sorry, accused number 17, what was his name? What was accused number 17's name? MR HLAPO ...(inaudible) MS PATEL You must switch on your mike please. You can leave it on, Sir. MR HLAPO Sorry, sorry. It's Bongani Mpondo. Raymond Bongani Mpondo. MS PATEL Is it Richard? Is it the same person? MR HLAPO Ja, ja. MS PATEL Richard Mpondo. MR HLAPO Sorry, the name was written wrong. His real name is Raymond, instead of Richard. MS PATEL Okay, fine. At that stage were you merely a supporter of the ANC or were you a member of the ANC? MR HLAPO Yes, at that time I was the supporter of the ANC and it should be understood every politician in South Africa becomes first, starts first from a black consciousness, which is more inclined to the PAC and then as years develop, or as you become more involved in the struggle, you develop and see that this position it's no more applicable, or it's no more factual, then you change your allegiance to another organisation. Of which I did, because I realised that saying that the white people must go the sea, it's practically impossible. In fact, it's a daydreaming thing, you can't take practically the white people to the sea. As the PAC slogans or objectives, they believed that the white people should go to the sea. ADV SIGODI Sorry, Ms Patel. What was your position in the ANC at that time? Did you hold any leadership position? MR HLAPO Thank you. At that time I was just merely a supporter, not even a member at that time, merely a supporter. And a supporter, it's anything. You can support an organisation without you being known by that organisation. For instance, I was working very close with the later Oscar Mpetha, who died in the '90s. So Oscar Mpetha was known as being an ANC member. So I liked the ANC ideas because ANC believed in the non-racial society. So that's why I said no, it is better as South Africans, to live together in peace and harmony. MS PATEL Mr Hlapo, can you tell us, if you were merely a supporter at the time and you didn't hold any official position in the organisation, on what basis did you take the decision that the crowd should move over to the church? MR HLAPO I repeat that at that time I was a supporter of the ANC and in the church when we took this decision that we must go an attack all government vehicles, we took this decision and then after taking the decision ...(intervention) MS PATEL Sorry, Mr Hlapo, I don't want to cut you short, my question was, on what basis did you take the decision that everybody should move over to the church? Can we deal with that first, Sir, we'll come to the events at the church later. MR HLAPO We took the decision on the basis of what had happened at Nyanga, in the morning of that same day. I have said here when I started that a white policeman beat an old woman of 79 years old, at that time in 1980. And in our culture you can't, being young as that particular policeman at that time, beat an old woman. In our culture you don't even argue with an old person. That went straight to the youth and the youth argued that this should be stopped. The white people are doing this, we need to do something now. MS PATEL Did this discussion take place - you can leave your mike on, Sir, you don't need to switch it on and off. MR HLAPO Sorry. MS PATEL Did this discussion about the old woman being attacked, did that take place prior to the meeting at the church? MR HLAPO Yes, because the news came with the taxi pirates. Because the taxis, there were no taxis during that time, we were using cars as pirate taxis. So the people who were from the station came with the news and said that the police are doing this in Nyanga Station. So the decision to go and do something on that particular day was taken, it was a spontaneous decision, not a planned thing. But we hold on that we must before anything happened, hold a commemorative service. MS PATEL So the commemorative service that was held on that day, was it planned prior to the 11th of August or was also a spur of the moment commemoration service? MR HLAPO Ja, services that are being held in all these years are things that are known, even they were known by any Dick, Tom and Harry in the township that on this particular day something must happen. Sometimes even the organisation which were involved in the township were also involved in organising these commemorative services. So that was a known thing. MS PATEL Were you involved in the planning of this commemorative service? MR HLAPO Not directly involved per se, but I was part of the commemorative service because at that time we were busy trying to get people into their work and busy with the pirate taxis. MS PATEL So who planned the service, do you know? Who planned the service? MR HLAPO The service which was held in Assembly of God, as I've said we were in the terminus, we decided on the spot on the terminus that they must hold this service as Assembly of God, instead of Dutch Reformed Church, which I've said that it is being associated with the apartheid regime. MS PATEL So this wasn't a service that was planned beforehand, it was a spur of the moment service, is that what you're saying? MR HLAPO Come again? MS PATEL I'm just trying to get clarity on the service, whether it was organised prior to the date or not. MR HLAPO No, the service as I've said that it was a thing that was going to happen, but this thing of an old woman being beaten in Nyanga Station, it was a spark to the whole thing, to a thing that was going to happen in any way. Meaning that the service. ADV SIGODI Did you know where the service was going to be held? MR HLAPO Come again? ADV SIGODI As you say that you knew that on the 11th a service would be held, did you know where the service would be held? MR HLAPO Before the service was held, as I've said that we decided about the venue at the terminus. ADV SIGODI Did you know that you were going to meet at the terminus? MR HLAPO Ja, exactly that we knew because we were operating, assisting people to board pirate taxis. ADV SIGODI Where to? MR HLAPO To their work places because buses, the bus fares were so high our people couldn't afford to board buses. So they were using pirate taxis and they were paying R1 at that time. ADV SIGODI Ja. I hear you, but what we want to know is, how did the people know that they must meet at the terminus, or did the people know that there was going to be a service and if so, where was that service going to be? Before you decided at the bus terminus that it must go to the Assembly of God church. MR HLAPO Ja, I have said that a question of venue, the venue we decided on the spot in Terminus Road. Terminus, why I'm saying that we decided at Terminus Road that there would be a service, in the morning of that day, prior to the incident of an old woman, in the morning of that day we have already decided that there will be a service in this place you see. As I've said before that it is a known thing that on this particular day services are held right throughout the country or right through Western Cape, that there must be a service on this date. Though you might not know the service but you know that there must be a service and you will get the information as you move on where the service will be. So what we did, we decided about the venue at the terminus, we went to the Assembly of God, to Mr Werner's church. MS PATEL Did you decide alone about the venue, or were there other people who made that decision with you? MR HLAPO Sorry, can you raise your voice a little bit. MS PATEL Did you decide alone about the venue, or did other people make that decision with you? MR HLAPO I am very sorry, the question seems to be ambiguous because I don't understand when you say "alone" you mean myself alone. MS PATEL Yes. MR HLAPO Did I personally decide alone? MS PATEL Yes, make the decision. MR HLAPO About what? MS PATEL About the venue, the church, about the use of the church. Did you make that decision on your own or was it a joint decision by you and other people? MR HLAPO I have said earlier here that we were discussing at terminus about the venue, so we were ...(intervention) MS PATEL Sorry, Mr Hlapo, it's a very simple question. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Patel, just give him a chance please, be patient. Explain what you want to explain, Mr Hlapo. MR HLAPO Thank you. What I'm saying, I have said here we discussed at the terminus. I even mentioned about two churches. I said Dutch Reform was rejected. I am the one who said Dutch Reform must be rejected because it's a church that is associated with the apartheid regime. I influenced the course of decision, but I cannot say that I was the only, because the decision which was taken there was a collective one. MS PATEL Who was involved in this collective decision? MR HLAPO We were involved in this collective decision. MS PATEL Can you give us names please. MR HLAPO I have mentioned accused number 17, that he was there in the terminus. As I've said, we were many, so other people, their names I don't know them. But a person who was very close to me, it was him. MS PATEL Alright. MR HLAPO And I know him from Guguletu. MS PATEL Once you were at the church, who was the meeting chaired by? Who chaired the meeting at the church? MR HLAPO ...(inaudible) a little bit raise your voice because I have a problem with my right ear here. MS PATEL Don't you want to put your headset on, it will help. MR HLAPO Okay. MS PATEL Okay, is that better? MR HLAPO Very much better. MS PATEL Okay good, thank you. Mr Hlapo, can you tell us who chaired the meeting at the church, at the Assembly of God church? MR HLAPO The person who chaired the meeting at the Assembly of God church, was my friend Bongani. MS PATEL Mpondo? MR HLAPO Yes. MS PATEL Okay. MS PATEL And who were the other speakers present? MR HLAPO I was one of them. MS PATEL Ja, and who else. MR HLAPO And many other people, like Diba was a speaker there. And others I wouldn't know them because they were from different places. MS PATEL Okay. ADV BOSMAN Ms Patel, may I just interpose here. Mr Hlapo, this Bongani, what was his position in the ANC? Did he have any leadership position? MR HLAPO No. I think I will have to clarify this. There are political organisations which were known in our country, so one will decide ignorantly or not ignorantly that the organisation that I feel that it's better, it can serve what I want, is this organisation. One might decide on PAC, others might decide on the ANC. So what I'm trying to say, I didn't know Bongani's position, but I knew that he was a staunch supporter of the ANC and to be a supporter it's not automatically being a member and holding a position in the organisation. It's just like Chiefs and Pirates. I am the supporter of Chiefs, but I'm not involved in the procedures and things of Chiefs. As a supporter I can do something wrong there in the name of Chiefs and say that no, I did this in the name of Chiefs, while I am not a Chiefs member, but being only merely a supporter. ADV BOSMAN But Chiefs only has one captain, so who made Bongani the captain that day? MR HLAPO ADV BOSMAN You may continue, Ms Patel. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. The people who spoke at the meeting, who addressed the crowd? How was that decided, did people just spontaneously get up and say what they wanted to say or how was it organised? MR HLAPO People didn't speak in that particular meeting spontaneously, it was not an anarchic thing this thing, there was no anarchy in that church. What was happened there, the chairperson or the master of ceremonies who is in front of us there, will call somebody and say "Can you come in front and address the crowd and say whatever you want to say to the crowd". Like myself, I went in front and addressed the crowd and I talked specifically about Mr Loza who was detained and tortured in Bishop Lavis. So I spoke about Mr Loza there, who died in the '70's, between '77 and '78 he was buried in NY5. MS PATEL Can you perhaps, I mean we weren't there, can you tell us how Mr Mpondo decided who would be the speakers at that meeting? How did he choose them? MR HLAPO Raymond Bongani, as I have said he was the master of ceremonies of that particular meeting. He will call a person to come in front and speak with the people. As I have said that was a simple thing. If you are gathered in a place, in our - let me quote about my own situation because we might not understand this. In our situation, in our own townships, we do things in a manner that befits us or befits that particular situation or event at that time and people will be as much as disciplined as they can. So the master of ceremonies will call people, or before the opening starts, the person will come to you "Do you want to say something in this meeting?" Like myself, Bongani came to me while I was standing outside the church that "Look broer(?), you are going to talk here, you see. So I agree and I said "No, I will talk". MS PATEL Can you tell us, if you can remember, who else spoke at the meeting, who else addressed the crowd? MR HLAPO I have said that I addressed the crowd and the name that I've just mentioned here, it was Diba, Vincent Diba. I think he's accused number something. It's there in the court records. MS PATEL Can you recall what the content of his address was, what he said? MR HLAPO What I recall about Diba is that Diba made the poem and that poem is titled, it says "When the white men came, our fathers became ..." and then it dwells on and one to other paragraphs. MS PATEL Okay. Was there a decision taken at the meeting about what course of action should be followed from that point? MR HLAPO In the meeting, or during the meeting proceedings or the service, because the word meeting will mean something else, in the service, during that service there were no decisions taken there, a decision was taken outside. MS PATEL Outside where, Sir? What do you mean by "outside"? MR HLAPO When I mean outside I mean outside of the building which we were. MS PATEL And what decision was that? MR HLAPO A decision which was taken was that we need to do something. As I've mentioned earlier, that an old woman was beaten and we felt that we are young, we need to defend our fathers and mothers, they can not be treated like this, so we said we must go outside the meeting, discussing as many people you say. Said that we must go and attack government cars and in particular any white man's car which is found in the vicinity or in these areas must be attacked. For your own information like in Terminus Road, when this thing happened a white man was delivering some goods in Silwane's shop, a man who is late now, that white man was attacked and was being defended by Silwane. Silwane because he's highly respected in the community, he was playing for Cape Town Citizen, which is based in Nyanga East, he managed to stop the crowd. And of which - at that time I was not part of that particular that attacked that white man who was delivering some goods to Silwane, but he managed to defend and call the crowd to calm down. MS PATEL Is this the same day or is it a separate incident entirely? MR HLAPO Let me say that in that particular day many things happened and some of them, they were not even mentioned in court you see. Like the thing of the police, the soldiers who were involved there, it was never mentioned. We fought tooth and nail with those police for a period that can take us a week from that particular day, which police were unable, even with the soldiers, were unable to penetrate Crossroads at that time. After the death of Mr Beeton they were unable. The way they penetrated Crossroads was through their spies and traitors. But physically fighting with our own bare hands and our own stones the police I can assure you, they were unable to enter at Crossroads for a period of a week because that was our centre. We were using the Klipfontein Road and the Lansdowne Road. So it was very impossible for them. MS PATEL Okay. From what I understand you're saying there was a decision taken after the service that government vehicles should be stoned. Was that the full decision or was there a decision taken as to who would do what or, was there any planning around this decision? MR HLAPO I think I will have to explain again. The decision was taken outside of the church that we need, because of the spontaneous action that took place in Nyanga where a white, an old woman of 79 years of age was beaten and this was a spontaneous - there are spontaneous decisions, there are planned decisions where you sit down and plan thoroughly and look for the consequences. This type of decision didn't care for consequences, we said just that we are going to hit the white, the government cars and white people who are found within the vicinity. MS PATEL Okay. You've stated in your affidavit to us that the crowd was stopping buses, all government vehicles and other unauthorised motor vehicles. That's on page 6 of your supplementary affidavit. The government vehicles that you referred to - it's on page 6, the top of page 6, Sir. MR HLAPO Top of page 6. MS PATEL Ja. MR HLAPO Yes, I'm listening. MS PATEL Okay. Those buses and government vehicles that were stopped, do you have any idea whether there were any white people in them? MR HLAPO What was happening, the buses that are driven in our townships are driven by black people or a Coloured person or an Indian person. MS PATEL Alright. MR HLAPO In South Africa no white man in those days will go to the township and drive a bus. MS PATEL Yes, sure one accepts that. And the government vehicles? MR HLAPO The government vehicles which were driven in the township were driven by also coloured people, sometimes accompanied by a white person, but as long as you are black - if you are a white person you must be within the vicinity of people who will be able to protect you at that time. But if you are a sole or a lonely white person roaming around in the township, then you are making yourself a serious target. MS PATEL Okay. And the reference to other unauthorised motor vehicles, what is that a reference to? MR HLAPO What I wanted to say in this affidavit when I was talking about unauthorised motor vehicles, I was talking about these white vehicles, it's an unauthorised, it was not supposed to be there at that time. Like for instance - I just want to mention an event here in 1976, why we decided that any unauthorised vehicle. In 1976, my friend who stayed at NY114, who was shot in front of me by the police who disguised themselves as the post office workers. So that gave us an experience from the age of 16 up until to the age of 20 years that was an unmemorable thing that I can forget, a man who was shot behind his head. And he lay in the mortuary, his people thinking that he is dead and yet he was not dead, he is alive even today. MS PATEL Mr Beaton, was he the first white person that the crowd had come across that day? MR HLAPO Yes, exactly. MS PATEL Okay. Can you recall - I accept that it was a spontaneous action, but if I can take you back, can you recall whether there was any decision amongst the crowd or whether people - what were people saying when they saw his vehicle come? MR HLAPO As I have said, a white man was an enemy and I'm saying this honestly and openly. Any black person, be it an Indian person or a Coloured person who lives in South Africa, at that time will know that a white man in that vicinity was known as nothing else, as an enemy. I have said here, I have mentioned that I come from a political school that once believed that every white person is an enemy, up until I changed that and I adopted a non-racial ..(indistinct) belief, entering into a new political school. MS PATEL This change in your belief, it took place prior to this incident taking place, not so? MR HLAPO Yes, I have said so. MS PATEL If all white people then were not seen as targets, that according to you the approach of the African National Congress was a non-racial one, can I ask you why didn't anybody approach Mr Beeton to ask him anything, why he was there, what he was doing there? MR HLAPO Ja, exactly, your question is very objective. This was what was supposed to happen, but now objective as it is, your question, the event at that time, the situation at that time, you being an ANC supporter or anything wouldn't have helped because of the anger. I won't lie and say here that I have stopped the crowd. I didn't stop the crowd, I in fact assisted the crowd, I helped the crowd because we were sending a message across to white people that even without guns we can make a difference. MS PATEL Okay. If I can just put to you my instructions from Mr Beeton's son, who is present here. MR HLAPO Thank you. MS PATEL He says his father was in the area because he was dropping off some co-workers and he wouldn't - he says his father was that kind of person, he wasn't going to drop at the edge of the township and make them walk home, he would rather, despite you know what was going on, he would drop them off at home and he was on his way back out of the township when this incident occurred. MR HLAPO Ja, I would agree with him, but what is happening here is that the situation at that time it's just like being at the wrong place at the wrong time. This is what. Mr Beeton was caught in the crossfire, simply just like that. It was not planned that Mr Beeton will come this way and when Mr Beeton per se, when he comes we will do 1, 2, 3. He was just an ordinary white man who was caught in a crossfire during that time. MS PATEL Do you say the same for Mr Jansen? MR HLAPO Exactly the same. Those people - just to add more. Those people were South Africans and South Africans who were living in the other part of the world within the country. Hence I have come forward and said that I apologise, I ask for forgiveness. I am not saying the families they must forget what happened to their loved ones, but at least to forgive me for had happened, because what we are interested in now is to build this honest country. MS PATEL If I can just take to one or two of these specific allegations that you've made in your supplementary affidavit and what is stated in the judgment by the Honourable Williamson, Judge Williamson. You've stated regarding Mr Jansen, that he was pulled out of the vehicle first, then the vehicle was set alight. MR HLAPO That's correct. MS PATEL If I can just refer you to page 88 of the bundle. There was a certain Lilian Umsotho who testified at the trial, can you recall that? I know the trial took a long time, over two years. MR HLAPO Ja, it was 19 years ago. Ja, but I can still recall some of the State witnesses who gave evidence in our trial. MS PATEL Okay. Can I just refresh your memory for you. According to her, she says first of all, the crowd stopped the vehicle, then she says it was stoned and then set alight. "... Mr Jansen climbed out through the window, all aflame and then he sat in the puddle, trying to extinguish the flames" That is different to what you have said to us here today. What is your comment on that? MR HLAPO Ja. On that, this Ms Umsotho was a State witness, that I want to mention before anything and it is a known fact in South Africa, State witnesses were literally being taught how to talk even if they don't know you. Like in the case of - in my case, Carol Plaatjies didn't know me, Carol talked about me in the court because they were shown photos which were taken in detention you see. So that when you talk about this person, when you point that person you must point a person whom you were shown before. So what she is saying I dispute it and I was there. I am the one who pulled with other people Mr Jansen out of the car and he sat next to a petrol can. MS PATEL Okay. And you deny that Mr Jansen was stabbed. MR HLAPO Yes, I deny the fact that Mr Jansen was stabbed by me. As it's being said in the court records. I totally deny that. MS PATEL And was he stabbed by anybody else there, can you recall? MR HLAPO No, I can't recall, but I have never seen anybody stabbing Mr Jansen. There were stones, it might have been a sharp stone because there are different stones, there's a round stone, there's a sharp stone. It might be - there were all sorts of ...(indistinct) that people had on that particular day. A sharp stone can possible cause a deep scar from the head. MS PATEL Ja, in fairness to you, the medical evidence was inconclusive that he was in fact stabbed with a knife, but there was an incision on his head that was commensurate with that of a sharp object. You say that after Mr Jansen was left there the crowd moved off and you then went off to the primary school, which was the meeting point for making petrol bombs. What was the purpose of this? MR HLAPO We were in a state of war. As I've said that when we moved away from Mr Jansen's car, the soldiers were approaching and we attacked the soldiers and they ran away. And then after that we withdrew from where we were to Nonxolo and make some more petrol bombs because we needed to go to another area and take the attention of the police and the soldiers to that other side while we'll be coming back on Klipfontein Road for another thing. MS PATEL Okay. Do you have any idea whether those petrol bombs were then used in Lansdowne Road that day? MR HLAPO Ja, they definitely were used. I used one too. The one that I used, it even nearly burnt me because when I was trying to throw it, it came at my back and then I was wearing a "jas", I had to pull the jacket out. MS PATEL Okay. Sorry, Honourable Chairperson, I'm almost through, I'm just double-checking my notes. If you'll grant me a moment. Just regarding the testimony of Carol Plaatjies against you at the trial. You say she never knew you. Can you deny though that she was part of the crowd? MR HLAPO Let me begin here. Why I believe that Carol Plaatjies didn't know me, I was staying in Guguletu and I was not frequenting Nyanga East regularly. First of all, why I am saying that Carol Plaatjies was lying, it is because she lied about Oscar Mpetha. She said that Oscar Mpetha went to Crossroads and he was there and he raised his fists and said "Amandla". The fact of the matter is, what made Oscar Mpetha become a part of our case, it is because Oscar Mpetha on the 12th, he made a statement to the Cape Times, or Argus and said "It is not the youth that is provoking the police, it is the police that are provoking the youth". And Oscar Mpheta on the 13th of the same month, he was arrested and something was made up that Oscar Mpetha should become part of this trial. And I will say and I am still saying that Carol Plaatjies was a very intelligent State witness and indeed she was very intelligent at the age of 15, the way they taught her because she definitely lied. I was there, there was no old man there, not even a single old man, let alone Oscar Mpetha. Oscar Mpetha is known all over Nyanga East and Guguletu. CHAIRPERSON The question is, do you accept she was part of the crowd? MR HLAPO To answer that question, Your Worship, I cannot deny that she was part of the crowd, she might have been there. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Ms Patel. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Her testimony, together with that of a certain Monwabise and Mr Fufu, was that you had addressed the crowd at the church, which you've admitted to us, that you assisted in building the barricades, which you haven't mentioned to us. You've stated that by the time you all came to Klipfontein Road, the barricades had already been built. Can I just get your comment on this difference? MR HLAPO Yes. First of all, I didn't help in building the barricade in Klipfontein Road. And secondly, if you read the very same records there is somewhere where Monwabise or Fufu says that I went to Russia with a car. Can any normal person from South Africa go to Russia with a car? It is here in these records where it was said that I went together, myself, Fufu and Monwabise to Russia with a car. MS PATEL Well unfortunately I haven't read the complete trial, but it's not mentioned in the judgment. Be that as it may. It is also said that you told accused number 2, who is Christopher Siglahia, he's the one who had the impediment, he was cripple I think or he used a walking stick, that you were one of the people who told him to stand in the middle of the road to stop the cars. MR HLAPO That too I deny, that I have never ordered anyone to lie in front of the road because if you do that you are rising that particular person's life, so you cannot say that to - Chris is late now and he was limping. A limping man, if that particular person or that particular target which arrived at that time, take an immediate decision to run off over him, how I was going to answer that? I never gave orders to Chris to lie on the road. Yes, I agree, there was a barricade. How was it made I really don't know because that was a crowd. MS PATEL Okay. How big was the crowd? Can you give us an estimation? MR HLAPO If I will estimate, I will say the crowd was approximately more than 2 000 people, because when we a certain section of the crowd was at Klipfontein Road other people were still coming from behind. So there were many people, particularly the youth. MS PATEL MR HLAPO Yes I did. I did overturn, not Mr Beeton, Mr Jansen's bakkie. MS PATEL No, Mr Beeton. The allegation was against Mr Beeton. MR HLAPO No, Mr Beeton's car was never overturned. The car which was overturned it's a bakkie of Mr Jansen. What happened with Mr Beeton, Mr Beeton was pelted with stones and all sorts of ...(indistinct). Mr Beeton was, he was just stunned, he couldn't do anything at that time. He was just holding the car. He stopped the car gently I must say. He stopped the car unlike Mr Jansen who tried to reverse back, which he missed a gear. But Mr Beeton when he saw the crowd he stopped in front of the crowd. So I didn't overturn the car which was coming from Cape Town's direction, which was driven by Mr Beeton. I agree to the bakkie that I overturned. MS PATEL Okay. Can I just, for purposes of the record, state to you that nowhere in the record is it stated that you actually stabbed Mr Jansen yourself. If I can refer to page 114 of the bundle, it's merely stated by Fufu that you took the knife from number 17, right, from accused number 17 and said that you were licking the blood of a dog and you then hit Mr Jansen with a brick on the head. The allegation is not that you stabbed him but that you hit him with a brick on the head. MR HLAPO Okay. That I hit Mr Jansen with a brick on his head, that is true because I used a stone. That I stabbed Mr Jansen, that is totally untrue. That I licked the blood of a human being, that is also totally untrue. MS PATEL Okay. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, bar if there's anything else from the family at this point in time, I'm through. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms Patel. We'll take the tea adjournment at this stage and we'll reconvene in 15 minutes time. MS PATEL Would everyone please rise. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO (s.u.o.) MR HLAPO I think I will have to say something here before we go any further. I've just asked my lawyer here to make an arrangement so that I can meet with the families. I think that will be proper, if they agree that I meet with them. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR HLAPO With the understanding of the family. CHAIRPERSON Yes, possibly it is a matter that should be explored between your lawyer and Ms Patel, and hopefully it is possible to make an arrangement in that regard, but they will investigate that particular question. MR HLAPO Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR HLAPO I want to say that, especially to the two families, I wish that they join in the building of South Africa and I also wish that even others who might not have come forward to the TRC, I want them to come forward to the TRC precisely because it will be necessary, as South Africans, both black and white, that we build our country. No-one will build this country except us South Africans. And thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Hlapo. Mr Crossley, have you got any re-examination? MS PATEL Sorry, Honourable Chairperson, before my learned colleague proceeds, I said before the adjournment that I was through, bar anything from the families. There's just one final thing that I would like to put or place on record in respect of Mr Jansen. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. MS PATEL And Mr Hlapo, just to let you know that Mr Jansen, my instructions are, he was a building contractor and often worked in the townships and that is how he found himself in the area on that specific day. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, that is all. MR HLAPO Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Patel. Yes, Mr Crossley, have you got any re-examination? MR CROSSLEY Honourable Chairperson, I have no re-examination of Mr Hlapo at this stage. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CROSSLEY CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Hlapo, you're excused. Thank you very much. MR HLAPO Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Have you got any other evidence that you intend to present? MR CROSSLEY Honourable Chairperson, we have no further evidence to present to the Commission at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Is that the case for the applicant? MR CROSSLEY If I may make some brief submissions to the Commission. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but in terms of the evidence, that's his case? MR CROSSLEY There's no further evidence to be led. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, do you intend to lead any evidence? MS PATEL No, I do not. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Crossley, have you got any submissions on the merits of the application? MR CROSSLEY ADDRESSES Thank you. I have very brief submissions to make, Honourable Chairperson. This is a very unique application. In my submission, Mr Hlapo has come forward, having served his term of sentence. He's come forward of his own free will, in the spirit of reconciliation and the building of a new and prosperous South Africa, to say he's sorry, ask for forgiveness and apply for the amnesty and the expunging of his criminal record. My submission is that he has complied with the requirements for amnesty as set forth in his affidavit and is amplified by his evidence today, and I accordingly ask that amnesty be granted as prayed and that his criminal record be expunged. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Crossly. Ms Patel, have you got any submissions? MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. My instructions are to leave the matter in your capable hands, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Ms Patel. I assume you wouldn't have anything further to add. MR CROSSLEY I have nothing further to add. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. That does conclude the formal proceedings. The Panel will consider the application and will notify the parties once the decision in the matter is available. We have noted, Mr Hlapo, your desire to make contact with the next-of-kin of the deceased in these matters. This is obviously one of the many difficult matters that come before us, in terms of the grief and the suffering that is involved and we know it's often complex matters to deal with. We express the hope that it's possible to explore the possibilities of making some contact between the parties. We trust that Mr Crossley and Ms Patel will do their best endeavours to possibly facilitate that process and hopefully there is some potential for something positive to be done in this regard. But in the interim the decision of the Committee will be reserved and will be announced at a later stage. Mr Crossley, we thank you for your assistance at this stage. Ms Patel, is that the roll for the day? MS PATEL That's the roll for the day unfortunately, Honourable Chairperson. We're not able to bring tomorrow's matter forward to today because the attorney for the applicant is not available today. So that's the roll, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we have assumed that there would be a difficulty in bringing the next matter on the roll forward. So under those circumstances we will adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS