amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-03 EAST LONDON 3 DUMISA MDLULWA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53836&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110103_el_991103.htm ON RESUMPTION MR MGIDLANA May I then call Dumisa Mdlulwa, Judge, to come over? CHAIRPERSON Mr Mdlulwa, what language would you prefer to use? MR MDLULWA Xhosa. CHAIRPERSON What language, I didn't get the answer? INTERPRETER The witness is going to be testifying in Xhosa. DUMISA MDLULWA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA Mr Mdlulwa, could you give us your full names and where you reside? MR MDLULWA My name is Dumisa Mdlulwa, I reside at Zimbane. MR MGIDLANA Where is Zimbane, which town? MR MDLULWA In Umtata. MR MGIDLANA During the time of this incident, were you a member of any organisation, that is the incident of the shoot-out at the school? MR MDLULWA Yes, I was a member of the African National Congress. CHAIRPERSON Were you a member of MK as well? MR MDLULWA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is it correct that you were part of the Security section of the ANC at that time, of the incident? MR MDLULWA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And were you one with Mr Matshaya that was deployed to Port St Johns on that day? MR MDLULWA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you listen to Mr Mashaya's evidence as to what happened there that day? MR MDLULWA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you agree with that or don't you? MR MDLULWA Yes, I agree with his testimony. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything that you would like to change? MR MDLULWA No, there is nothing I would like to change, except for the fact that there is a minor detail that he has left out. CHAIRPERSON I was going to ask you, if there is anything that you wish to add. MR MDLULWA The cars that were there, our car was at the back and the other car was, the car that was in the front, it was shot at and that is actually the proof that they were shooting at the direction of the school. The driver was inside, but inside the car he was not hit and he tried to reverse and he left and his shoe was left inside the car, and we tried to get some spades to take our car, to try to remove our car, and we left the scene. That is what I wanted to add. CHAIRPERSON Is that all? MR MDLULWA No, there is nothing else. He mentioned everything. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mgidlana? MR MGIDLANA Were you carrying any firearms, yourself personally? MR MDLULWA Yes. MR MGIDLANA What firearm was that? MR MDLULWA It was an Uzzi. MR MGIDLANA Amongst the - did you notice anyone else other than the ones that Mr Matshaya has mentioned, as having participated in this shoot-out from your side? MR MDLULWA There was a lot of confusion, full of people, I cannot remember who else was there. During this shoot-out there was a pandemonium, the others were crying on the other side as we were also returning fire, we also had to save them, try to remove them and try to calm them down. MR MGIDLANA From your own firing, did you see anyone amongst the people who were struck by a bullet from your firearm? MR MDLULWA No, I do not remember seeing anyone, because the area was bushy and people would see only shadows because even if you would try to peep through and you would hear a bullet hitting nearby and you would try and take cover. MR MGIDLANA Did you have a license in respect of this firearm that you were using? MR MDLULWA Yes, we got the licences - we got the firearms from the Commander, I did not have my own license for the firearm. MR MGIDLANA You have already indicated that you confirm what has been stated by Mr Matshaya regarding the incident? MR MDLULWA Yes, I confirm that. MR MGIDLANA That is all Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGIDLANA JUDGE POTGIETER When did this happen? MR MDLULWA If my memory serves me correctly, I think it was around March, but I cannot remember the date. JUDGE POTGIETER In 1994? MR MDLULWA Yes, in 1994. JUDGE POTGIETER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malusi? MR MALUSI Thank you Judge, no questions for this witness. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALUSI CHAIRPERSON Mr Mgxaji? MR MGXAJI No questions, Judge. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MGXAJI CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Just one Chairperson. Mr Mdlulwa, in your application, I just want you to clarify this point, on page 52 of the paginated pages, you say on paragraph 9(b) where the question is "state whether any person was injured", you say "yes, TDF soldiers and some people killed by the bandits", what do you mean by that? MR MDLULWA Will you please repeat your question, sir? MR MAPOMA In your application form there some part where you say that TDF soldier was killed and you say and some "people killed by the bandits". MR MDLULWA You want to know more about the bandits? MR MAPOMA Yes. MR MDLULWA I think that is the language used by the person who was helping me writing this statement, because I never mentioned that term, bandits. Poswa, the person who was helping me writing the statement, may have used his own language. MR MAPOMA I see. Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mgidlana, I don't suppose you have any re-examination? MR MGIDLANA There is none Judge, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED