amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-01 JOHANNESBURG 1 LINDA PRECIOUS MNTAMBO AM6135/97 ROBBERY AT TOTALISATOR AGENCY OF R76 052, INTIMIDATION OF MR RANAKE, MR SHOMANE, MR MONAMODI, MS SITHOLE AND DR MATSIE,ESCAPE FROM LAWFUL CUSTODY AND STABBING A POLICE OFFICER, LIMPET MINE EXPLOSION AT TURFONTEIN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53842&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110103_jhb_991101.htm LINDA PRECIOUS MNTAMBO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Kopedi. JUDGE DE JAGER Could you kindly assist us? We've got different incidents here in all, I think, 4 incidents. Could you just tell us, Mr Mntambo is applying for amnesty in connection with which incidents? MR KOPEDI My Lord, that was my immediate intention. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. MR KOPEDI If I could take you through the instances and who is involved in what instance and I have used the page 1 of the bundle of documents as a point of reference to which we will all be acquainted to. There's an incident marked 1, the ...(indistinct) Monamodi incident on the page 1 where they talk about victims. Yes on the Saki Monamodi incident, the people involved in this matter would be Linda Mntambo, George Mogapi, Sandile Ndlungwane and Jabu Mbatha. May I mention at this stage that this Jabu Mbatha had applied for amnesty and that his application has been denied, I believe on the basis that there hasn't been any political motivation. The second incident would be the one attack on Ms Sithole, an attack on her house actually. The persons involved would be Linda Mntambo, George Mogapi, Sandile Ndlungwane and Jabu Mbatha again. The third incident, I am instructed that in fact this refers to a Doctor Matsie not Matsike. CHAIRPERSON How would you spell that? MR KOPEDI Matsie would be spelled M-A-T-S-I-E. Yes and the people involved in this incident would be the same four, Linda Mntambo, George Mogapi, Sandile Ndlungwane and Jabo Mbatha. The fourth incident, we have here Mr Shumane. My instructions are that it's actually S-H-O-M-A-N-E and the people who were involved in this operation would be Linda Mntambo, George Mogapi, Sandile Ndlungwane and on this Mr Shomane's matter, and this will become clear with evidence, there are actually two incidents, not one. May I explain that the one incident was direct directly at Mr Shomane, the other incident, although this took place at Mr Shomane's house, was directed at a tenant of Mr Shomane, whose name we do not know and the people involved in this operation on the tenant would be Linda Mntambo, Andrew Mathabathe and Sazi Ndlovu, the fifth applicant. There is another incident which would be a robbery on Fidelity Guards. On page 1 we have victims listed as H C Janse van Vuuren and P Viljoen. We believe these two are linked to the one operation being the robbery and the people involved in this one was Linda Mntambo, George Mogapi, Andrew Mathabathe and Sazi Ndlovu. There's a seventh incident, it's referred to as unidentified traffic officers and I think it should have referred to an unidentified traffic officer who was attacked and the people involved in this were Linda Mntambo and Jabo Mbatha, only two. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, there are other instances which appear on the application forms that are not listed here and perhaps because there are no victims and we're talking about a list of victims. I have put an 8th item there and referred to it as a limpet mine explosion at Turfontein, at the sports ground in Turfontein. This occurred during 1988 and the person involved here was Linda Mntabmo on his own. No one was injured, to our knowledge no property was damaged but there was a limpet mine placed and detonated. I have a ninth which refers to an escape from lawful custody and this escape included the stabbing of a police officer and Linda Mntambo was involved, it's he who escaped and who stabbed the police officer. Those are about the offences for which these applicants come before you and perhaps before I lead ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER ...(indistinct - mike not on) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. JUDGE DE JAGER ... the one directed at the tenant, it was Linda, Andrew and ... ? MR KOPEDI Sazi Ndlovu. JUDGE DE JAGER Sazi. CHAIRPERSON And Mbatha. MR KOPEDI Yes. What I wanted to go to now was to ...(intervention) MS LOCKHAT Chairperson just before Mr Kopedi continues, I just want to place on record that I represent Mr Monamodi, one of the victims in the incident, Chairperson and my instructions are that we are to oppose that particular incident in relation to himself. CHAIRPERSON Which incident will that be of the listed ones? MS LOCKHAT That is the attack on Mr Monamodi, that's the first incident. CHAIRPERSON The first one, yes. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson. MR KOPEDI What I wanted to go to next, Chairperson, was to ask for an amendment to the application form of Sandile Ndlungwane. The application for amendment is to include, his application starts on page 9 of the bundle of documents Chairperson. The application I seek to make now is to include an offence of having possessed a Makarov pistol during 1992 for which he was arrested and sentenced. CHAIRPERSON Does that also include ammunition? MR KOPEDI Yes, it includes ammunition, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So you make an application to amend Mr Ndlungwane's application by inserting a further, call it an incident, of unlawful possession of a Makarov pistol and ammunition during 1992. MR KOPEDI 1992. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objection to that Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT No objection, Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER This is referred to, no the hand grenade is referred to on page 16, is that correct? MR KOPEDI I'm not with you My Lord. JUDGE DE JAGER On page 16 you've got the typed version and he says, he's referring to a hand grenade that's been hurled, ...(indistinct - mike not on) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. JUDGE DE JAGER He's also referring to a hand grenade thrown at Zondi's house. MR KOPEDI Yes. All these incidents that appear here and perhaps it's a question of naming them. Instances, for instance I believe that the hand grenade hurled through a dining room window at Zondi in Soweto, this was at Mr Monamodi's house. The hand grenade in Moroka, this would be at another victim's house, but he has not, in his application form or even in the further particulars, referred to this amendment which we seek to make now. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Kopedi. We'll grant the amendment and by adding in the further offence or offences namely unlawful possession of Makarov pistol and ammunition during 1992. MR KOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Having said all that I believe we are ready to proceed and with leave of the Committee I would like to proceed with Mr Mntambo. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, he has been sworn in so you can go straight into your questioning. MR KOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI Mr Mntambo, is it correct that you are co-applicant in this hearing? MR MNTAMBO That is correct. MR KOPEDI Now you have applied for various incidents or instances to which we have been talking to this Honourable Committee about. Now my question to you is, during the commission of all these incidents, where you a member of a political organisation? MR MNTAMBO Yes, I was. MR KOPEDI Which political organisation? MR MNTAMBO The African National Congress. MR KOPEDI When did you join the ANC? MR MNTAMBO In 1982. MR KOPEDI Whereabouts? MR MNTAMBO In Soweto, I was still a pupil attending school at the time. MR KOPEDI Now during your involvement with the ANC whilst you were a member, did you belong to a unit or a cell? MR MNTAMBO I was a member of a cell in 1988. MR KOPEDI From 1988. Would you tell this Honourable Committee who were the other members of your cell and their standing within the cell in terms of lines of command? MR MNTAMBO The Commander of our cell was Simon ...(indistinct) Modise. Second in command was Monde, that was the only name that I knew and we also called him Bless. Thereafter myself. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, who was second in command, I missed the name. MR MNTAMBO Monde, but we also called him Bless. Thereafter it was myself, Linda Precious Mntambo. Below me was Andrew Mathabathe. Thereafter it would be Sandile Ndlungwane and George Mogapi and well as Jabu Mbatha and Vusi Mshlekwa as well as Ronnie Sazi Ndlovu. Those were the people who comprised the cell. MR KOPEDI Now can we go to the incidents ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just before you proceed Mr Kopedi, when you say you were a member of a cell, were you a member of MK, was that an MK cell? MR MNTAMBO Yes, it was an MK cell. MR KOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Shall we go into the operations? This unit that you belonged to, in which area did it operate? MR MNTAMBO Around the Soweto, Johannesburg areas. MR KOPEDI And who did you report to you know, after having carried out operations, who would you report to? MR KOPEDI It was Monde. MR KOPEDI The second in command? MR MNTAMBO That's correct. MR KOPEDI Okay. Now let's go to the incident involving Mr Monamodi. Do you recall when this was? MR MNTAMBO Although I cannot be certain of the dates, it was in 1988. MR KOPEDI Will you tell this Honourable Committee what happened then and perhaps that by explaining why it happened? MR MNTAMBO Mr Monamodi's house is at Zondi. A decision was taken that a grenade should be thrown into his home, that was after discussions with unit members. That information was given to Mr Monde who gave the go-ahead for the operation. We surveyed the house and we discovered that Mr Monamodi lived alone with his wife, Sandile Ndlungwane and George Mogapi, who was a driver, myself and Jabo were on foot. CHAIRPERSON Before you proceed Mr Mntambo, Mr Kopedi asked you why, now you've told us you made a decision to attack the house and you did recce work, why was the decision made to attack the house? What was the reason? Why choose upon Mr Monamodi as a victim? MR MNTAMBO Okay. From the information that we received, I understood Mr Monamodi to be in employer structures whose task was to make sure that the SAMWO strike that was on at the time, does not succeed. The decision was taken because Mr Monamodi was on the management and he was an influential person and he tried whatever means that the strike that was on in 1988, a strike by SAMWO, that the strike does not succeed, that decision was then taken. CHAIRPERSON SAMWO is that the South African Municipal Workers Organisation? MR MNTAMBO Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER I think you said he was on the management, the management of? MR MNTAMBO He was an employee of UBC but it was a civic organisation that was involved with people who worked in local government and municipalities. MR KOPEDI Chairperson, if one may be of assistance, the UBC used to be known as the Urban Bantu or Black Council in Soweto. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Kopedi. MR KOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. I believe you've dealt with the why part, why him. Please go on and explain what happened. MR MNTAMBO The decision was then taken on the basis of the reasons I've outlined above and as I've already explained, we received information which we passed on to Monde. Monde then gave us the go-ahead to proceed with the operation to intimidate Mr Monamodi, for him to cease his actions if he was indeed doing what he was alleged to be doing. Therefore myself and Jabu went on the operation and I'm the person who threw the hand grenade through the window. George and Jabu were further were about 350 metres away and they were in a vehicle. The hand grenade was thrown just after the Monamodis turned off the lights. We were of the impression that they were going to bed at the time. I threw it into the dining room, not in the bedroom and the objective thereof was to intimidate them. MR KOPEDI Now after throwing this hand grenade, did you retreat? MR MNTAMBO After throwing the grenade we retreated. We got into the vehicle and left. MR KOPEDI That's all that happened in as far as your attack on Mr Monamodi's house? MR MNTAMBO That's correct. MR KOPEDI Okay. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, when you say you threw it in the dining room, was the window open or did you just throw it through the window, through the closed - through the glass? MR MNTAMBO It was closed. MR KOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Shall we move to the second incident, the attack on Ms Sithole. Would you briefly tell this Honourable Committee, perhaps start with the why part, like we just did, why and what happened. MR MNTAMBO The reason for the attack is similar to the previous incident. Ms Sithole was a social worker and she was influential in decisions taken by management. She also tried all in her power that the strike does not succeed. What happened was, myself, Sandile and George were present. George and Sandile were in their vehicle and I went to the house and threw in the hand grenade. I threw it just outside the door that I think was the sitting room because I could hear that there were people inside watching TV. Thereafter I fled and got into the vehicle and we left the area. I'd just like to correct something. Ms Sithole was a director. MR KOPEDI Okay. CHAIRPERSON Sorry. So you're saying that you threw the grenade outside the door, did you mean for it to land outside the house itself, rather than for it to go inside the house? MR MNTAMBO It would have fallen outside on the premises not inside the house, but it was close to the door that led into the sitting room where they were watching TV. CHAIRPERSON You didn't actually want to injure anybody, you were sending a message by throwing that hand grenade? MR MNTAMBO Yes, that was the reason why I threw it outside, to send a message similar to the one sent to Mr Monamodi. It was not an intention of mine to injure or kill anyone. MR KOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. We will move to the third incident, the attack on Dr Matsie and perhaps to assist you, who was Dr Matsie? MR MNTAMBO He was also one of the people in management structures and he was also influential in decision making and he also made attempts to stop or to make the aspirations of the workers fail, that's why he was also picked up and intimidated. With regards to the operation, myself and Sandile as well as Jabu Mbatha and George Mogapi were involved. Jabu Mbatha and myself went into the house. Jabu was armed with an AK47 rifle and I had a hand grenade in my possession as ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Please go a little bit slower, we're trying to write down what you're saying. CHAIRPERSON You said Mbatha had an AK47 and you were also in possession of grenades. MR MNTAMBO Yes. I then knocked on the door. A woman, an elderly lady, opened the door and on realising that Jabu was armed, she screamed in fear. A certain then approached from the house and he had a dog with him and he then released the dog and Jabu then shot at that dog. We then closed the door and fled to the car. Our intention of going there was for us to meet with Mr Matsie and discuss with him that he should stop his actions and on realising that we were armed, we had hoped that he would see that we meant business and he would therefore do whatever he could to support the workers' struggle, but we did not get that opportunity to intimidate or even discuss anything with him because of that incident of releasing the dog and subsequently shooting it. We then retreated to the car. CHAIRPERSON These three incidents that you've spoken about, how far apart were they from each other? Over what period of time from the first incident to the last of these three that you've spoken about, Mr Monamodi, Ms Sithole and Dr Matsie? MR MNTAMBO I cannot recall correctly but they were close to one another because if they had been too far apart the message that we intended to send, would not be felt, therefore they were very close to one another. CHAIRPERSON You've said that you wanted to speak with Dr Matsie face to face and tell him to change his ways as it were. Why did you decide on that modus in respect of Dr Matsie and not in respect of the other two persons who threw grenades at their house, why didn't you decide to also go and speak to Ma Sithole or Mr Monamodi? MR MNTAMBO With regards to the two incidents where we threw hand grenades, that was a decision that had been taken to throw these hand grenades. At the time our unit was running short of arms and ammunition, therefore to throw hand grenades for the sake of intimidating people all the time, would deplete our supply, therefore we decided on that occasion that we would discuss this matter with him, without having to throw any hand grenades. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Kopedi. MR KOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Let's move to the other incident, the one involving Mr Shomane and let's start with him and not the tenant. Why? Why him? Who was Mr Shomane, to your knowledge? MR MNTAMBO Mr Shomane was a policeman based at Protea police station. He resided at Dube. The general mandate of the ANC was that the police were our enemies and were legitimate targets. A decision was then taken to attack Mr Shomane, to attack and kill him because he was a policeman and his residing at Dube made him a messenger. He could supply information and we were also in danger of us being detected. MR KOPEDI What was done to him? MR MNTAMBO It was myself, Andrew Mathabathe and Sazi Ndlovu who carried out the operation. We went into his yard. I threw a stone through the window with the intention of getting him out of the house so that we would then be able to shoot him, but this did not happen. We waited outside until we had to leave. That is what happened. MR KOPEDI So other than breaking the window, nothing happened to him as a person? No attack was done, no grenade was thrown, only the window was broken? MR MNTAMBO Yes, that's the only thing that happened. I threw that stone. I did not throw any grenade or carry out any other attack. CHAIRPERSON Was he in the house at the time? MR MNTAMBO Yes he was. MR KOPEDI Let's move to ...(intervention). JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Kopedi just before you step off this one, wasn't there a plan or a conspiracy to kill him? Wasn't it more than only the throwing of the stone? MR MNTAMBO As I've already mentioned before, when we attack a place we do this after discussions and we would also share this information with our Commander Bless, therefore we had planned to kill him because he was a policeman. MR KOPEDI Now the second incident on Mr Shomane's house, the one that involves his tenant. Will you tell this Honourable Committee who this tenant was, that is to you? Did you know this tenant? Do you have a name? MR MNTAMBO From the information that we received about people who had been arrested and released, they informed us that this person was a policeman with the Security Branch. We followed this information and indeed established the truth about it. CHAIRPERSON Before you proceed, sorry Mr Kopedi to keep interrupting you. When you say that this person was Mr Shomane's tenant, was he a lodger staying in the house at the same time as Mr Shomane, or did Mr Shomane, after the attack upon his house when you threw the stone, leave the premises and rent the place out to this other person who became the sole occupant maybe with his family of the house to the exclusion of Mr Shomane, or did they live there together? MR MNTAMBO He was a lodger. Mr Shomane did not leave his house. MR KOPEDI How soon after the throwing of the brick at Mr Shomane's house did you decide to go for this other person, the lodger? MR MNTAMBO I cannot really recall when, I do not remember whether it was after one month or slightly less. MR KOPEDI You've just told this Honourable Committee that you had information that this person was a Security, a Special Branch of Security Branch member and then what did you decide to do? MR MNTAMBO A decision was taken to kill this person, because at the time the Security Branch was directly involved in our activities, they were the ones who were directly involved with the arrest of activists. MR KOPEDI What happened? What did you do to this person? MR MNTAMBO What happened was, I was with Sandile and George. George remained in the vehicle. We witnessed this Security Branch police parking his car and we alighted from our vehicle, approached him. As he had finished opening the gates and he was going back to his car, we approached and shot at him. Thereafter we returned to the car and left. MR KOPEDI You don't know if any, or do you know if any shot hit him? MR MNTAMBO I am certain that he was shot because I was close to him. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mntambo, could you indicate a distance more or less in this room? MR MNTAMBO About two metres. CHAIRPERSON Did you see him fall or anything like that, or did you just assume you must have hit him because you were so close to him when you shot? MR MNTAMBO I assumed that he must have been hit because I was close to him because after shooting we immediately retreated, we returned to the vehicle and fled. I did not see whether he fell or not. MR KOPEDI What time of the day was it, if you recall? MR MNTAMBO It was in the afternoon, maybe about 6 p.m. or after 6. CHAIRPERSON How many shots did you fire? MR MNTAMBO I cannot say, because I pulled the trigger once, it was on short burst mode, I can maybe estimate that there were two shots that were fired. CHAIRPERSON You had an AK47 is that correct? MR MNTAMBO That's correct. MR KOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. So do you know if this person was killed or injured for a fact? MR MNTAMBO On my arrest I received information that the person died. MR KOPEDI Okay. So after shooting this person, you went to the get-away car and you fled, is that correct? MR MNTAMBO That's correct. MR KOPEDI Okay. Chairperson I would like to move to the next incident and perhaps before I go into it, with leave of this Committee I would like to lead him through other instances before the robbery, where he was involved. Mr Mntambo, you stated in your application form that you are also applying for a limpet mine explosion at Turfontein, is that correct? MR MNTAMBO That is correct. MR KOPEDI Could you briefly tell this Honourable Committee what happened then? MR MNTAMBO I took a limpet mine, an SPM and proceeded to Turfontein. As usual Monde was aware of that operation and he had given the go-ahead. I then went to ...(indistinct). I planted that mine behind a bar that was on the sports grounds. There was an electric pole thereabouts and I place the mine between the pole and the wall of the bar and after that I left. It exploded after some time and no one was injured, as per plan. The people were on the other side at the grounds and there was no one at the bar area. CHAIRPERSON What short of sports club was this Mr Mntambo and why did you particularly select that sports club as a target? MR MNTAMBO It was a big complex. There were about three or four sports grounds inside that complex and the complex was surrounded by fence and I went through the main gate. The people who were playing sport were on the other side. The intention of placing that mine was to relay the message that MK did not exist only in the townships but all over South Africa. CHAIRPERSON Is this what you would call a propaganda operation? MR MNTAMBO That's correct. MR KOPEDI And to your knowledge you've stated that no one was injured. MR MNTAMBO No. MR KOPEDI Now let's go to another incident where you are the only applicant in this matter. At some stage you escaped from the ...(indistinct) police station, is that correct? MR MNTAMBO Yes, briefly and very briefly, please take this Honourable Committee through how you escaped. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps before, Mr Kopedi, what were you detained there for? MR MNTAMBO It was with regards to the incidents I've just outlined, Shomane as well as Mr Shomane's tenant, as well as the one related to Dr Matsie, the Monamodi and the Sithole incidents, as well as the Fidelity Guards and limpet mine explosion incidents. These were the incidents I was detained for. MR KOPEDI Please proceed and ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry and when was it, round about? MR MNTAMBO It was on the 31st of May 1989. MR KOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Please explain to this Honourable Committee what you did to achieve your escape. MR MNTAMBO What happened was, I had discussions with other detainees at the police station because I could see them through the cell. I could speak to them, therefore I could inform them that I was intending to escape and if anyone else was interested, I would then lead the police officer who would be on night duty, to their cells. We then agreed with other detainees who were in two other cells. When the police officer came on duty that night, I informed him that I had given someone some cash during the day to buy me food but that person had not returned and I informed him that I knew that ...(indistinct) person. The policeman then informed that he would have to lock up the ...(indistinct) first and thereafter he would come to me and I would go show him that person. That is how it happened. He came to my cell. I was in solitary confinement at the time. He took me to that other cell and I found a lot of detainees in the cell and I made as if I was looking for someone in the cell and then signalled to them using my hands that this was the opportunity to flee, but the were afraid and I told the policeman that this person I'm looking for was not in this cell, we should go and look in another cell. We did so and even in that other cell the inmates were afraid. On our way back to my cell I requested the keys from the policeman to open my cell. He then did so and when I opened the cell, I gave him way for him to go inside first and as I tried to close the door behind him, he realised this and he removed the keys from me and as we were still outside I requested to go drink some water. I went to drink water and on my return he had his back towards me and he was opening the door to my cell. I then took out a spoon which I had already sharpened because I had foreseen that if my plan doesn't go well, I would use the spoon. I stabbed him with that spoon and he tried to fight me but I continued stabbing him until he let go the keys. I then locked the policeman inside the cell and I went through a window and jumped over onto near a railway line and I then got onto a train and that is how I escaped. MR KOPEDI Let's move to another incident. ...(indistinct - mike not on). INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR KOPEDI Let's move to another incident, the incident of the traffic officer. Please take this Committee through what happened to this traffic officer. MR MNTAMBO Well as for the traffic officer, I was with Jabu Mbatha and that night in question we had in our possession this very firearm we had in our cell. The one mission that led us out was to hit just about anything that had to do with the government of the day, namely the police, soldiers, black jacks, traffic officers as well, just about anything that had to do with the government of the day. Unfortunately we met the traffic officer, had his car parked, in his official vehicle, the one decision we took, myself and Jabu that is, was to go, approach him and disarm him, take his car and go further our mission as the African National Congress and the MKs. We were approaching towards the traffic officer, knocking at the door. He pulled out his firearm immediately and we went towards the back and fled, or went backward and fled and I shot subsequently and that's how he was shot, the traffic officer, that is. Now that was what was carried out that day in question and we went back. CHAIRPERSON Did you have an AK47? MR MNTAMBO Yes, we did have one. CHAIRPERSON And how many shots again, can you just describe the shooting, your shooting? MR MNTAMBO Well I shot when I had already moved backwards, just once did I shoot. One other thing he did, he put down his window. One thing that crossed our minds was that he wanted to go after us and I shot just once and we disappeared from the scene. MR KOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Do you know what happened to this person? Do you know if he was injured or whether he died? Did you ever hear anything about him? MR MNTAMBO One thing I heard after I was arrested, information I gathered from the police was that he has since died. I don't know the truth as to what extent. MR KOPEDI Okay, let's move to another incident. The robbery of the Fidelity Guards in Dube. Where was this operation planned, let's start there. MR MNTAMBO The planning was in this nature. Bless Monde, the one who was our Commander, the one I was reporting directly to, brought the decision that such an action should be executed because the operatives were being faced with financial problems, bankruptcy, materially as well, they did not have enough. The one important thing that he said was, when he was telling this to me about this operation was that we must be able to get money, so to set free Simon Modise who was in custody or arrested, now who was kept in hospital, to set free. I'll run this by you one more time. He gave us the go-ahead or rather he brought this idea to us that we should execute this action towards the Fidelity Guards, so we may be able to fund raise and that will enable us to set free one of the other comrades who was kept in hospital. One other thing that he mentioned was that we could disarm those people if the situation presents itself conducible. MR KOPEDI Who was Simon Metseng? Just for the sake of clarity on this operation, who was the Simon Metseng? MR MNTAMBO Simon Modise Metseng was an overall Commander that gave over to Monde to be the one leading our unit, the members of the unit. He was a fine leader. Metseng now was the one responsible for the training within the country. This is how much I can say or divulge in as far as Metseng is concerned. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Kopedi. If you could just explain one thing to me. You keep talking about Bless, Monde, being your Commander and giving orders in respect of all these operations, why didn't he do anything himself, other than issue orders? Why didn't he participate in operations himself, or in any of these operations? MR MNTAMBO Well what I will say in so far as Monde is concerned about his non-participating in these operations was the fact that he was the one behind of the replenishment of the unit. Now, he also was the one who gave the go-ahead by Metseng to work together with us. The fact that he did not participate in these things, purely boils down to the fact that he was a facilitator but not necessarily on the ground, having to operate such things. He would give us orders and we'll give him back reports or he'll also say he will convey whatever thoughts we have to the senior. He was the one giving out the orders, instructions so to speak and we'll also give him report-back. As you are aware in this day and age, the Commanders are not practically involved on the ground, the people who take the work there on the ground are the foot soldiers. The Commanders decide on such things as information and furnish out the information and things like go-aheads, so in other words he was the brainchild behind all operations which were executed and all the mandates as well, we received from him, Bless, that is. MR KOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. Did any one of you know how much would be found in this robbery? MR MNTAMBO No one had an idea or knew. MR KOPEDI Okay. Briefly take this Honourable Committee through what happened. Who went there? Did you drive, walk and what happened at the scene? MR MNTAMBO Monde had a discussion with me where he explained the need for the operation and also with regards to our situation at the time, he informed me that we should try and rob that Fidelity Guards' vehicle and he would use that money to bribe the policemen who would then release Metseng who was in custody. On his explanation he thought he could do that. Secondly, I have already touched on the state of bankruptcy experienced by operatives, therefore this money would also assist other cells, for the operatives to be able to go to other neighbouring countries to render their reports, but the most important aspect was that of releasing Metseng. MR KOPEDI What happened at the scene? How did you go there? MR MNTAMBO It was myself, Andrew Mathabathe, Sazi Ndlovu and George Mogapi. George was the driver, Andrew, myself and Sazi as well as Ronnie Ndlovu were passengers. I had an AK47 rifle and I was the only person who was armed. The others were unarmed. Andrew had a knife in his possession. Sazi was unarmed. We arrived on the scene and parked the vehicle. Sazi had already been dropped off earlier on and Andrew Mathabathe had also been dropped off at a point close to our target. He would be able to communicate with me through the window, to inform me that the guards were about to step out, so that I will carry out the operation, so on arrival, there was just the two of us, myself and George Mogapi. Two people alighted from the vehicle and went inside and on coming back Andrew signalled to me that they were about to come out. One carried steel trunks and the other carried a firearm. I came out running and I started shooting. The vehicle went around so that it would only come for me after I had completed the mission. These two white men fled and they left the trunks behind, but they also returned fire so there was an exchange of fire as they were fleeing. Andrew Mathabathe then approached and I then covered him and he retrieved the two trunks and put them in the vehicle. Sazi also approached to assist him. They got into the vehicle and I also did the same and we left. That is how it happened. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR KOPEDI Do you know if anyone died or anyone was injured? MR MNTAMBO No one was killed, we would have been informed if that had been the case, but the police informed us that some people did sustain injuries. MR KOPEDI After getting into the car and retreating, where did you go to? MR MNTAMBO After retreating, we proceeded to Meadowlands, Zone 2. On our arrival we parked the vehicle. That was George Mogapi's old friend's house. It hadn't been in the plan to go there, so we just asked if the person was present. I cannot remember whether the person was indeed at home, but we then realised that I'd also been shot at, I had sustained some injury. George and Andrew then took me to Dr Tshivulu in Meadowlands. On arrival there we discovered that they were just about to close and the doctor examined me and he could not find the bullet although there was a wound. He then suggested that we go to the clinic. We then returned to Zone 2 where we had left Sazi and on our arrival there, we had already discussed with Andrew that he should go somewhere, approach somebody we knew to be a nurse, Hope Tshabalala. Andrew went to this person to inquire as to which private hospitals she knew that we could approach. She then informed him about ...(indistinct) clinic. JUDGE DE JAGER Which clinic? The name of the clinic again. MR MNTAMBO Glenmed. Andrew and Hope then came to me and they picked me up, took me to the hospital and on our arrival there, I gave them false information and I was admitted. I was operated on and released after some time and returned home. MR KOPEDI Do you know what happened to the money, after you were taken to the hospital, do you know what happened to the money? MR MNTAMBO Well firstly I think I paid about R4 000 for the clinic. Monde came to see me at the hospital. He had received that information that I was hospitalised from my girlfriend, Nomvula. He then asked me how he could get into contact with Andrew because he is the person who had the money and he requested that I arrange for them to meet. They were then going to meet at a certain park in Dube, so when Andrew came to see me, I informed him that Monde would meet him at such and such a place. They did so and the information that I received at that stage, the money had been given to Monde and Monde gave Andrew R5 000 so that my medical costs would be covered. He further instructed that we should take about R1 000 to take to Hope Tshabalala for the assistance she had rendered. Therefore there was about R4 000 remaining after we had given R1 000 to Hope Tshabalala and that R4 000 was confiscated by the police. I do not know what happened to it, but the rest of the money was given to Monde. CHAIRPERSON Did you learn what the haul was, how much money was robbed? MR MNTAMBO What I read from the papers was that it was R76 000, that is what I learned from the papers. MR KOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. Now do you think that there is anything that you have left out, not only on this robbery operation but on all the operations which you have just told this Honourable Committee about. Do you think there is anything you have left out? MR MNTAMBO I do not think that there's something still outstanding except for the attempts that were made by myself and Andrew, such attempts were not successful. For instance we tried to explode a limpet mine somewhere but we did not go ahead with that operation because we realised the danger to the people, the general public. Another incident involved a Mr Ranaga where I and Andrew booby-trapped a gate so that if he opens the gate, the pin would go off and he would be killed, but that mission was unsuccessful, so there's other things that maybe I did not mention. MR KOPEDI But in as far as the operations that happened and where you believed there was damage to property, death or even injury to persons, do you think there's anything that you have left out? MR MNTAMBO The only thing I can mention now is that besides the damage to property, the loss of life also happened because of the situation that prevailed. Then to the people who lost their fathers, their relatives, I request forgiveness. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Kopedi, if I could just ...(indistinct) Mr Mntambo, were you trained, did you receive any form of military training? Hand grenades, explosive material, firearms? MR MNTAMBO Yes, I did receive military training, that is besides the one provided by Metseng. Metseng provided me with the theoretical part but I did undergo training in Uganda, that is after my escape from prison. Therefore I was trained under the auspices of MK. MR KOPEDI Do you believe that you have fully disclosed all the relevant facts to this Honourable Committee, necessary for you to obtain amnesty? MR MNTAMBO Yes, I believe that I have told the truth and nothing but the truth. MR KOPEDI Did you benefit anything personally in any of these operations? Is there an operation where you benefited personally? CHAIRPERSON Materially, that is. MR KOPEDI Yes material, financially or otherwise? MR MNTAMBO No, I did not gain financially, except for the political objective. JUDGE DE JAGER What happened to the balance of the money, the R71 000? MR MNTAMBO What happened was on the 27th of January 1989, not long after my discharge from hospital, there was an operation that was undertaken. The money was with Bless and the rest of us were arrested and I do not know what happened to the money thereafter. MR KOPEDI Chairperson, that will be the evidence in chief for this applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Kopedi. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant? MS LOCKHAT Yes, thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT I just want to go back to the incident of Mr Monamodi. Can you just tell us, where did you receive the information regarding Mr Monamodi, that he was working for the UBC, that it was just him and his wife and so forth, who gave you this information? MR MNTAMBO I received that information from George and Sandile. MS LOCKHAT Because Mr Monamodi says that he never worked at UBC. He said that he was a plumber for the Soweto City Council, can you comment on that? MR MNTAMBO That is what he says, but the information that I received, the information that we received was that he colluded with the management, particularly in working to the failure of the strike. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, if you could just perhaps clear up my ignorance. Soweto City Council and the Urban Black Council or the Urban Bantu Council, I don't know what they were called, were they two separate, completely different things? What was the difference between them? Perhaps I can ask Mr Mntambo whether he knows? MR MNTAMBO The UBC was part of the Soweto Council. CHAIRPERSON So from yourselves point of view, Mr Mntambo, or the ANC's point of view, was there any distinction between the Soweto City Council and the UBCs, in so far as they constituted targets. MR MNTAMBO I mentioned that UBC was part of the Soweto City Council. They worked hand in hand, there was no difference. CHAIRPERSON Now, Mr Monamodi has now said that he was a plumber in the employ of the City Council. Can you dispute that or not, or do you dispute that? MR MNTAMBO The only information that I had was that Mr Monamodi co-operated with the management in stamping out the strike. He was not on the workers' side, he collaborated with the management and he was also a foreman as far as my knowledge goes. CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat. MS LOCKHAT In your examination in chief as well you stated that Mr Monamodi was part of management and he was an influential person. My instructions are that he was never part of management and that he, whenever there was a strike, he participated in the strikes, he was never on the side of management and that is my instructions to you. Can you comment on that if ...? You don't have to. MR MNTAMBO Yes, I can comment. When I say he worked with management, that is the information I received and that is the information we worked with. The fact that he was a foreman was also transmitted to us. He was a foreman, co-operating with the management and he was against the workers' struggle. There was no reason to just target him for nothing. CHAIRPERSON Sorry and you say, did you receive this information from George and Sandile? MR MNTAMBO That's correct. MS LOCKHAT And whose idea was it to throw the hand grenade at Mr Monamodi's house? MR MNTAMBO As I mentioned earlier, before such an operation we would not do it without discussing it first. I was informed of this and I passed the information to Monde and he realised that we could attain our political objectives by supporting the workers, that was mobilising their support for the ANC and he gave the go-ahead to carry out the mission, but he instructed that no one should be killed. MS LOCKHAT Mr Monamodi says he's got a 15 year old son as well. His son was 15 at the time of the incident and in your examination in chief you said that your information was that it was only him and his wife living there, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON Yes, ...(intervention). MS LOCKHAT I just want to place it on record. CHAIRPERSON I think he said it more than once, it was just him and his wife. But are you putting it to him that ...(intervention). MS LOCKHAT I'm putting it to him that my instructions are that in fact the information that these comrades had, was incorrect. CHAIRPERSON It's put to you, Mr Mntambo, that it wasn't only Mr Monamodi and his wife at the house at the time of the attack, but he also had a 15 year old son, who was in the house at the time. What do you say to that? MR MNTAMBO Even if there was such a son, the important thing is that when this incident took place, the son was not there. If by coincidence the son was present when the incident took place, the son would not have been injured because I threw the grenade into the dining room after they had just switched off the lights to go to bed. MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, that's the questions that I have in relation to Mr Monamodi. ADV SIGODI Sorry, can I just ask one? This strike with the workers, what were the workers striking for? MR MNTAMBO It was an industrial dispute regarding the wages. The workers realised that they were not satisfied with their wages, therefore they went on strike. CHAIRPERSON Was it a big strike? MR MNTAMBO It was a big strike, to such an extent that a decision was taken to support that strike in the way that we did because it did happen that during the times of apartheid, MK operatives did participate to mobilise the support of the workers. For instance, during the strike of the railway workers, limpet mines would be planted at trains, therefore for swelling the number of Cosatu and mobilising support for the ANC we did participate in the strike. MS LOCKHAT Can I go on to another incident Chairperson? Do you know where you got weapons from to use in all of these instances? Can you tell us where you got it from and from whom? MR MNTAMBO I do not have information as to where Monde received the weapons from. He would give me whatever weapon that he did, but I do not know where he received them or where he got them from. MS LOCKHAT Do you know that it was not, I'm going on to the armed robbery now, do you know that it was not part of the policy of the ANC to commit robbery? Can you comment on that? MR MNTAMBO As I have stated before, our unit operated under orders. CHAIRPERSON I think the question was, do you know that it was ANC policy not to commit robbery? That was the question. MR MNTAMBO I did not know that. MS LOCKHAT Well I just want to inform you that that was in fact the policy of the ANC and whenever we had written to the ANC asking them whether it was their policy, they always came back to us and informed us that no, indeed it was not so. It was also in the ANC submissions as well, just for your information. MR MNTAMBO What I can say is that the ANC knew their policies, but as an operative you would be ordered on what to do and reasons would be furnished that would convince you of the political objective of the situation, therefore when Monde explained that there were tactics that were used to attain the objectives, he informed me that he could not leave South Africa and go to other countries to obtain firearms, therefore I operated under orders. MS LOCKHAT I spoke to one of the victims, Mr van Vuuren, early this morning and he said that in the armed robbery incident, someone was standing at the top on the roof of the building, is that true or can you comment on that? MR MNTAMBO Please repeat that. MS LOCKHAT In the armed robbery incident, he said that, Mr van Vuuren, one of the victims stated that there were four people involved and he said that one of the applicants was standing on the roof of the build, of the Tattersalls and with a weapon as well. Can you comment on that? MR MNTAMBO I do not know thereof that you are referring to but there was not such, I was the only person who was armed with a firearm. CHAIRPERSON Why, when you went on an operation of that nature, when I say of that nature, you know that you're going face to face with security guards who will no doubt be armed, why only one of you go with a firearm? Why didn't you go there with hand grenades and more fire power to ensure the success? MR MNTAMBO We did have a firearm and I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON There were four of you and you were going to attack a Fidelity guard wagon, you must have known the people would have been armed, so the question was, why not take more fire power than you did, seeing that you were a unit and there were more than one of you? MR MNTAMBO As I explained before, we were running short of material. Even other units were running short that is why Bless also said if we could disarm these people, we should do so and in all those operations it's only one AK47 rifle that was used, therefore the reason why we had only one AK and not hand grenades is that with a hand grenade many people can sustain injuries and it is not very accurate and the reason why there were many of us, is because we also wanted to create the impression that we were many whereas only one person had a firearm. Even the police on investigating, they discovered only cartridges from one firearm. JUDGE DE JAGER You also had a Makarov pistol? CHAIRPERSON Well not you personally but we know that during 1992 at least, that was 1992 it was a Makarov pistol. This was in 1989 was it? 88 sorry. JUDGE DE JAGER Didn't you have the Makarov pistol in 1988? MR MNTAMBO We did not have anything. If somebody did have a Makarov then it was not during that time. CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat. MS LOCKHAT You said that you dropped Sazi off, where did you drop him off? What was his role in the whole incident? MR MNTAMBO He was dropped off in a position that would enable him to see these people coming out of the building therefore he communicated with Andrew who, in turn, communicated with us through the window. Therefore the important thing was signalling to one another and for them to create the impression that there are many of us and that we are all armed. MS LOCKHAT Was it possible that Sazi actually went onto the roof? MR MNTAMBO I do not know anything about the roof and I did ask before if they referred to the rooftop of a vehicle or of a building, but there was not time at that time to get onto a roof, because I think this operation took about five minutes. MS LOCKHAT Yes, but surely you must have planned this operation to the finest detail, even if it had taken 5 minutes? MR MNTAMBO That is true. MS LOCKHAT So then it was possible for you to organise yourselves in such a way that you could have sight over the premises there, isn't that so? MR MNTAMBO That is so. MS LOCKHAT So it is possible, as Mr van Vuuren said, that someone was actually at the rooftop? MR MNTAMBO I do not know about that, maybe my co-applicants can shed more light, but I do not remember seeing anyone on the roof. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Lockhat. Mr Kopedi, do you have any re-examination? MR KOPEDI Nothing in re-exam thanks Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager, do you have any questions you would like to ask? JUDGE DE JAGER Did you ever meet Mr Monde afterwards, after you'd been arrested? MR MNTAMBO No, because on my arrest I managed to escape. Thereafter I fled to exile, so I did not meet him. CHAIRPERSON Is he still alive? Do you know where he is? Is he around? MR MNTAMBO I am not certain, but the rumour is that he passed away. JUDGE DE JAGER So you never learned what happened to the R71 000 left? MR MNTAMBO That is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Whether he took it for himself or what did he do with it? MR MNTAMBO What I can say about Monde is that I believed and had faith in him as an MK operative, he would not order such an operation to use us, that is the faith I had in him. CHAIRPERSON Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you'd like to ask? ADV SIGODI What happened to Simon? Was he ever rescued? Because the money was supposed to be used to rescue him. CHAIRPERSON Simon was Monde's responsibility. What I learned later was that Simon was removed from Johannesburg and he was taken to another hospital in Pretoria but therefore I'm speculating that Monde's plan did not succeed because of that reason. ADV SIGODI And this Fidelity Guard robbery, how did you know that this Fidelity Guard van would be at that particular place on that particular time? Did you get any information from anyone? MR MNTAMBO I resided close by as well as Mr Mathabathe. On the issue of the order, we had to survey the place and check how many people do the delivery and what time, so normally there would be four to six people. We did this surveillance and we discovered that they usually travelled in the M4's and we also established the times that they would come to collect the cash. That was the information that was passed on to Monde. Even though the times were not as strict, but we were going to wait to fulfil that mission. ADV SIGODI ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR MNTAMBO No. ADV SIGODI Thank you Judge. CHAIRPERSON Were you ever charged and tried in respect of any of these incidents, Mr Mntambo? MR MNTAMBO I was arrested but I was never charged, nor went to trial until the time that I escaped. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kopedi, do you have any questions arising? MR KOPEDI No questions arising, that you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat, any questions arising? MS LOCKHAT No questions thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Mr Mntambo, thank you, that concludes your evidence. MR MNTAMBO Thank you. MR KOPEDI Chairperson, I beg leave to call the next applicant who would be Mr Sandile Ndlungwane.