amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-01 JOHANNESBURG 1 SANDILE S. NDLUNGWANE AM6064/97 INTIMIDATION OF MR MONAMODI, MS SITHOLE, DR MATSIE, MR SHOMANE AND UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF A MAKAROV PISTOL AND AMMUNITION https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53843&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110103_jhb_991101.htm SANDILE S NDLUNGWANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Kopedi. MR KOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI Mr Ndlungwane you have listened to the evidence given by Mr Mntambo. I would like to clear a few perhaps preliminary issues with you. At this point were you a member of any political organisation and if so, what organisation was that? MR NDLUNGWANE At this point I was a member of the African National Congress. MR KOPEDI Did you also belong to the armed wing of the ANC, MK? MR NDLUNGWANE I did. MR KOPEDI Your co-applicant Mr Mntambo has mentioned that there was a unit which was commanded by Simon Modise whose deputy was Bless and gave this Honourable Committee the names of yourself and the other members of this unit, would you confirm that? MR NDLUNGWANE I indeed confirm that. MR KOPEDI Okay. Your co-applicant has also told this Honourable Committee that you were involved in certain incidents rather and I would like to take you through them one by one and get your confirmation on that. The first one would be the attack on Mr Monamodi. MR NDLUNGWANE Indeed that is true, I was involved. MR KOPEDI Now as he explained to this Honourable Committee how the attack was launched, is there anything you would like to add or take away from what he has said, particularly in as far as you are concerned? MR NDLUNGWANE I indeed confirm everything that he said. MR KOPEDI The other incident refers to the attack on Ma Sithole's house or the throwing of a grenade in Ma Sithole's house. Do you confirm? MR NDLUNGWANE I indeed confirm that as well. MR KOPEDI And what about Dr Matsie? MR NDLUNGWANE I confirm everything, also that he actually alluded to. MR KOPEDI What about Mr Shomane? MR NDLUNGWANE I also confirm that as well. MR KOPEDI I see you were not involved on the SB, the tenant operation. Is there any other operation you were involved in with this unit that we have not talked about now? MR NDLUNGWANE I think all the operations that he alluded are the only ones that I was involved. MR KOPEDI Okay. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just on this point, just for information more than anything, Mr Ndlungwane. How did it come about, perhaps I should have also asked Mr Mntambo, how did it come about that not the whole unit was involved in all the operations? In other words you were only involved in some and some of your comrades were involved in others without you being there, how did that come about that you weren't involved in all these operations? Did that depend on what the operation was etc? Can you just explain to us? MR NDLUNGWANE Well the reason I was personally not involved in some of them is that I was out of the country at the time because I was also in the leadership of the Trade Union at national level so I went out quite often. MR KOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. Alright, during 1992 you were arrested, charged and convicted with possession of a Makarov pistol, is that correct? MR NDLUNGWANE That is correct. MR KOPEDI Where did you get this pistol from? MR NDLUNGWANE I got this from the MK. MR KOPEDI Do you know who in the MK gave it to you? MR NDLUNGWANE Well basically immediately after the unbanning of the African National Congress, there was this scourge of violence and those MK comrades who were back at the time, met at certain instances to discuss about the situation and a decision was then taken that people should be armed and SDUs should be trained and on a particular day an arms cache was actually brought to me by ...(indistinct) by a person who I could not identify, for reasons I would think that they were obvious from the people who sent them to me. MR KOPEDI Do you think that your possession of this pistol was politically motivated? MR NDLUNGWANE It was indeed, because it was not the only weapon that was actually brought to me, because there were others that were brought to also help train other people. CHAIRPERSON You used the pistol for training? MR NDLUNGWANE It was mainly for that purpose, even though it wasn't eventually used. CHAIRPERSON You never shot it in anger? MR NDLUNGWANE No, it wasn't. MR KOPEDI Now did you benefit anything financially or materially from the possession of this Makarov pistol? MR NDLUNGWANE I didn't benefit anything personally or financially. MR KOPEDI Do you think that you have fully disclosed to this Honourable Committee all the relevant facts surrounding this pistol and perhaps all other instances where you were involved? CHAIRPERSON And what sentence you got, could you tell us what sentence you got? MR NDLUNGWANE I actually got 6 months and there was a fine, R2 000 fine, yes R2 000 plus fine, I can't remember exactly. MR KOPEDI I believe two thousand you mean Rand? MR NDLUNGWANE R2 000. MR KOPEDI Yes. Chairperson, that will be the evidence of this applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Kopedi. Ms Lockhat do you have any questions you would like to ask? MS LOCKHAT Yes, thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT I see that you worked for, you were an admin officer for Soweto City Council, is that right? MR NDLUNGWANE That is correct. MS LOCKHAT Was that at the time of these incidents? MR NDLUNGWANE It was at the time of these incidents. MS LOCKHAT So you also knew Mr Monamodi and some of the other victims? MR NDLUNGWANE Well, Mr Monamodi personally I didn't but I knew Ms Sithole and Dr Matsie. MS LOCKHAT So you wouldn't know about the information that was gathered on him and so forth? MR NDLUNGWANE Well I know about the information that was gathered, but I didn't know him personally. CHAIRPERSON In your capacity as an admin officer in that particular city council, we've heard that Mr Monamodi says that he was employed as a plumber by the same City Council. Were you personally aware, although you didn't know him, of what role he played with regard, if any, the strike, this Municipal Workers' strike that was on at the time? MR NDLUNGWANE Well again, personally I don't know of the role that he played, but I know that he actually connived with the Directorate in terms of the Union bashing. CHAIRPERSON How did you know that? MR NDLUNGWANE This was the information we gathered which was being spoken about because the strike actually involved all the employees of the Soweto City Council including the workers who worked with him. MS LOCKHAT So who else gathered this information besides you, I mean you worked at this place, it seems obvious that you would know of him? MR NDLUNGWANE You're asking who else gathered? MS LOCKHAT The information on Mr Monamodi and others. MR NDLUNGWANE You will understand that at the time I was in the leadership of SAWU at national level so the information would actually you know, reach me as well as George Mogapi in particular. CHAIRPERSON Why George Mogapi in particular? MR NDLUNGWANE Because he also worked for the Soweto City Council as well. MS LOCKHAT I see you got indemnity. Is it correct that you got indemnity? MR NDLUNGWANE Yes. MS LOCKHAT For which acts did you get indemnity, for which incidents? MR NDLUNGWANE In 1990 or 91 I actually applied for my involvement within the MK activities but of course I didn't really specify exactly recruitment, reconnaissance, surveillance and all that, but I didn't really specify the activities as I have done now in this TRC. CHAIRPERSON It was a sort of a blanket indemnity ... MR NDLUNGWANE A blanket indemnity without specifics. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination Mr Kopedi? MR KOPEDI Nothing in re-exam thanks Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager, do you have any questions? JUDGE DE JAGER You were in a position to confirm whether Mr Monamodi was in fact conniving against the strike because you were working with him at the Council, isn't that so? MR NDLUNGWANE Pardon, is that a question, Sir? JUDGE DE JAGER Yes. Couldn't you ascertain whether this was this rumour or the information you obtained was in fact based on facts and that he did in fact work against the strike. MR NDLUNGWANE Well the person who really worked, not so close but who was really in a position to know that was my comrade George Mogapi because they almost worked in the same, even though it was not exactly the same, department, but very closely which is technical services, so because he almost really also confirmed to a certain extent this, so I had no reason also to probe into the matter. JUDGE DE JAGER I see. So you acted on the belief that the information was indeed trustworthy and correct? MR NDLUNGWANE Yes, because at least there was a person who worked not very far distant from him, so therefore he would give us concrete evidence. JUDGE DE JAGER We've heard today that Mr Monamodi, he's denying that, he said he participated in the strike, he didn't work against the strike. Can you comment on that? MR NDLUNGWANE Well, I wouldn't agree or disagree that he didn't but I'm saying that this is the information we gathered and obviously we had nothing against him personally because our intention was to ensure that we pursue the political objectives and the objectives of those of the workers who were on strike. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndlungwane, this particular strike, did all the workers participate in that or was it only sort of partial? I mean was it a shut-down? MR NDLUNGWANE It was a shut-down. CHAIRPERSON So, people participated in the strike, I'm just putting this to you, would people have participated in the strike, in other words by staying away from work or whatever, because they wanted to and because they agreed with it and also because they not necessarily agreed with it, but just because everybody else was doing it and they felt that they were exposing themselves if they came to work? Would that be the situation? MR NDLUNGWANE Well I don't want ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I mean it's been put that, I'm not commenting on what Mr Monamodi, the credibility of what he said, but he said that he participated in the strike. What I'm asking you, would there have been people who participated in the strike without necessarily being pro the strike? MR NDLUNGWANE Well, that is a possibility but I do not want to say that that was the case. I take it that the people who participated, supported the demands that were put by themselves, you know. CHAIRPERSON We also know, I think we've got to be quite open, we also know that there's a degree of intimidation, even if it's not direct, just peer pressure, put it that way. If I'm the only chap in my department to go to work now and everyone's striking there's a lot of pressure for me to do that, it takes a brave man to do that. MR NDLUNGWANE Well I would say that indeed that is human in such instance, even if it's indirect, it may be there, but I can't confirm that there was any that day. CHAIRPERSON I understand that. Adv Sigodi? ADV SIGODI I have no questions, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Ndlungwane, oh sorry, any questions arising? MR KOPEDI Nothing arising thanks Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOPEDI MS LOCKHAT No questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ndlungwane, that concludes your evidence. MR NDLUNGWANE Thank you very much. MR KOPEDI Mr Chairperson, I beg leave to call in the third applicant, Mr Andrew Mathabathe.