amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-02 JOHANNESBURG 2 GEORGE S. MOGAPI AM6037/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53846&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110103_jhb_991102.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. I see now, what I said earlier, has been proved wrong again. We won't be proceeding with matter number 6 on the role, Mr Nkosi's matter, but we will be concluding hopefully matter number 1 on the roll, proceeding with the matter that we finished with yesterday. Mr Kopedi? MR KOPEDI Thank you honourable Chairperson and Committee members. Yesterday when we adjourned, we were about to call Mogapi. He is here before you and ready to be sworn in. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. GEORGE S. MOGAPI (sworn states) MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, if I can just interrupt for a brief moment. Mr P. Viljoen, he is one of the victims in the incident Chairperson, and he was yesterday, he was looking for the place and he couldn't find it, and then today he arrived fortunately, so I will be acting on behalf of Mr P. Viljoen in this matter, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Lockhat. Mr Kopedi? EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mogapi, is it correct that you are a co-applicant in this matter? MR MOGAPI That is correct. MR KOPEDI It is also correct that you were present here yesterday when you fellow applicants gave evidence? MR MOGAPI That is correct, I was here. MR KOPEDI Now, Linda Mntambo, he gave evidence to the effect that you were a member of an underground MK unit, to which he belonged to, is that correct? MR MOGAPI That is correct. MR KOPEDI Now, when did you join this MK unit? MR MOGAPI It was in 1988. MR KOPEDI Were you also a member of the ANC? MR MOGAPI That is correct. MR KOPEDI Now, you have heard him explain to the honourable Committee members as to the operations which he was involved in together with yourself, is that correct? MR MOGAPI That is correct, I heard. MR KOPEDI Can you confirm the contents of his evidence? MR MOGAPI I agree fully with him. MR KOPEDI Is there anything that you would wish to add to what he stated here? MR MOGAPI There is nothing that I would say except to say all that he said, is true. MR KOPEDI Are you satisfied that you have complied with the requirement of full disclosure by confirming what he has said, you have fully disclosed to this honourable Committee, all the relevant and material facts? MR MOGAPI That is correct. MR KOPEDI And perhaps one final question, in all the operations you were involved in, did you receive any personal gain such as material or financial? MR MOGAPI Nothing of that sort happened, I never gained anything, not money, nothing. MR KOPEDI Perhaps finally, are you also satisfied that all the operations you were involved in, had a political objective? MR MOGAPI That is correct. MR KOPEDI Chairperson, that will be the evidence of Mr Mogapi. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Kopedi. Ms Lockhat? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mogapi, did you work for Soweto City Council? MR MOGAPI Yes, I was working at the Water Branch. MS LOCKHAT Did you have any contact with a Mr Monamodi at the City Council? MR MOGAPI I was working with Mr Monamodi at the Soweto City Council at the Water Branch, we worked at the same department. MS LOCKHAT Is it correct that you were the person that informed your other comrades in relation to the activities of Mr Monamodi? MR MOGAPI The part of the information came from my side, I gave it to the comrades about Mr Monamodi. MS LOCKHAT When you say part of the information came from your side, who contributed to the other part of the information? MR MOGAPI Other workers at the plant. MS LOCKHAT What information did you yourself deliver regarding Mr Monamodi? MR MOGAPI The information that in 1988 when we were on strike, Mr Monamodi was not co-operative, in other words he did not want the strike to go forward. He wanted the workers to carry on working, whilst the workers were complaining about their wages. That is the same strike that led to certain problems at work, some of the workers never got back to work, they went on strike. MS LOCKHAT Well, Mr Monamodi's instructions are that he always participated in the strike, that he was not non-co-operative, can you comment on that? MR MOGAPI That is what he said. I cannot stand against that, but I want to say he did everything under duress, he did not want to, because there was this thing that if a person did not take part in the strike, the workers would be putting their eyes on him as to what leads this person not to take part in the strike. MS LOCKHAT Mr Monamodi also said that he, the information that was given to your comrades and to your Commander, was that he was part of management, and that was also incorrect information, that he was actually a plumber there, can you comment on that? MR MOGAPI Yes, it is true, he was a plumber. He was a plumber and at the same time, he was promoted to a foreman. A foreman was part of management. MS LOCKHAT Did you know Mr Monamodi before this took place, did you know him personally, on a more personal level? Did you not grow up in front of Mr Monamodi? MR MOGAPI No, when I started working at the Soweto City Council, that is the time when I first knew him. If I recall the date, it was in 1984 when I started working at the West Rand, today it is called Soweto City Council. MS LOCKHAT So would you say that all the information that was given, in your mind, all the information that was given to your Commander was the correct information and that you were satisfied that when Mr Monamodi's house was going to be targeted, that you were satisfied that that was the proper action to take in the circumstances? MR MOGAPI I have mentioned already that I fully agree with all that Mr Mntambo has mentioned. Every step that was taken when we were together, discussing, and was given to us by the Commander, I would not in any way say to the Commander "no, we are not supposed to do it this way, we have to do it this way". I was not a Commander, the Commander gave us the order to go and execute according to how he saw it necessary. MS LOCKHAT I want to move on to the next incident, that is the armed robbery incident. What was your role in that specific incident, what was your orders and instructions, in your participation in that incident? MR MOGAPI I was the driver of my co-workers from the robbery point to the last point. MS LOCKHAT Did you have a firearm? MR MOGAPI I did not have anything, I just drove. MS LOCKHAT And did any of the other applicants have firearms? MR MOGAPI The person who had a firearm, was one. We were four, it is only one person who had a firearm, it was Linda Mntambo. The others did not have firearms. MS LOCKHAT Why I ask you this is because Mr Viljoen will say that more persons were armed on that day. Can you comment on that? MR MOGAPI Mr Viljoen is not right when he says many people were armed. When we arrived, it was - it was a lot of people, it was chaotic and the taking of the money happened in a very short time. I think he thought there might have been many people, yet it was only one person who had a firearm. MS LOCKHAT When you discussed the plan of this operation, what was the other people to do, where were they supposed to be situated at the Tattersalls, what was their location? You were going to be the driver, Linda was going to have the firearm, where were the others going to be? MR MOGAPI Our formation of attack provided us with four points, each one of us were supposed to be at a certain point. At the beginning of the incident, regarding to Mr Viljoen and them, everybody was supposed to move from his point to come closer and execute the order that was specifically given to him. MS LOCKHAT Do you know if anyone was positioned on the roof of the Tattersall building? MR MOGAPI Nobody among us, who was tasked to climb on top of the roof. According to my knowledge, I do not know of any who was on the roof. We were four and the four of us were on the ground, there was no time in fact to climb over the roof. MS LOCKHAT It is not a matter of the time, it is a matter of the well planning of the operation, don't you think so? MR MOGAPI I have mentioned there was nobody on top of the roof. JUDGE DE JAGER Would you perhaps assist me, how many storeys did this building have? MR MOGAPI It was one floor, and it is just like this building, but it is on the ground, it is one floor. CHAIRPERSON So it is not just like this building, in fact? It was just a single storey building? MR MOGAPI Yes, it is a single storey, there is no other top floor, that is what I was trying to explain, Chair. MS LOCKHAT Because Mr Viljoen will say that someone indeed was on top of the roof, surveying the security guards, and that that particular person also shot at one of the security guards, and the bullet did in fact injure the person, it went through his chest. Can you comment on that, you don't have to? MR MOGAPI I mentioned and I want to repeat, there was nobody on top of the roof, Mr Viljoen did not see clearly, there was nobody on top of the roof. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Mogapi, you said that there were four points and each person had a point and then on the command, they would move in. What point did you have? MR MOGAPI It is one of the four points, whereby I was tasked to drive a getaway car, to take the money out of that area. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't get out of the car, you just sat in the car the whole time? MR MOGAPI That is correct, I was in the car, I stopped next to Mr Viljoen and his co-workers and we loaded the money, and they ran away. MS LOCKHAT I just want to refer to page 63 of the Bundle, in your criminal trial, the third paragraph, the last paragraph, it is that Popo Tshabalala had given evidence and it was stated that yourself, Linda, Ronnie and Andrew came to her house and gave her R500-00 for assisting you. Can you comment on that, where did the R500-00 come from, why did you give it to her? MR MOGAPI There is a certain money that I know was taken out, I do not know who took the money to Ms Popi, to take care of the transportation of Linda to the hospital. JUDGE DE JAGER Was that after Linda was out of the hospital already, at that stage, when the money was taken out and given to Popo? MR MOGAPI I do not recall, but I think it was after he was released from the hospital. MS LOCKHAT But wasn't this for the transportation to take Linda to the hospital? MR MOGAPI It was money to take care of the transportation to and fro, or whether there is a problem when he is at home, he must be taken to the hospital. This money was supposed to be used for the health of Linda, but in terms of transport. JUDGE DE JAGER On page 60 at the bottom, according to the evidence of Popo, this happened about - well, after he was out of hospital, about two weeks, and according to the evidence, he, Mr Mogapi, Linda, Ronnie and Andrew were all together when this money was handed to Popo? MS LOCKHAT I am indebted to you, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Will you agree with that, Mr Mogapi? MR MOGAPI What I am saying is there is a money that was taken out, I do not remember, but it was me and Sazi and Linda. I do not remember a day where the four of us or the three of us took money to Sister Popo. Who took the money, I do not remember, but I do remember for a fact there was a money that was taken out. I heard that a money was taken to her. How much the money was, I do not recall. How much money was given to the hospital, I do not know. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Mr Kopedi, do you have any re-examination? MR KOPEDI Nothing in re-examination, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager, do you have any questions you would like to ask? JUDGE DE JAGER Do you know Veronica Mabuza? MR MOGAPI She is one person who gave evidence in court. JUDGE DE JAGER And she was Linda's girlfriend? MR MOGAPI Yes, that was Linda's girlfriend. JUDGE DE JAGER Can you still remember what she said at court? MR MOGAPI Even though I would not recall well, she was called into the witness box to give evidence against me. I - she was just mumbling, I do not recall exactly what she said. Chairperson, would you assist me as to what she said? JUDGE DE JAGER Yes. She told the Court according to the record, that you and Linda visited her and that you brought money in a bag of First National Bank, can you remember such an occasion? MR MOGAPI Chairperson, that is what she said in court, I remember she said that. That I visited Linda or we visited Linda at home with money in a bag, there is nothing of that kind, I have never done that. CHAIRPERSON I think what she said was that you and Linda visited her, coming with this First National Bank bag that contained money? MR MOGAPI I do not know that. That is her evidence in the court against me, I have never visited her. Where did we visit her, because she lived with Linda in the house? JUDGE DE JAGER And she further testified that Linda requested her to keep this money in a wardrobe, in your presence, can you remember that? MR MOGAPI I do not recall that. I do not recall anything relating to that. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, by that answer Mr Mogapi, I don't quite understand what you are trying to say, are you trying to say well, you cannot remember, it might have happened, but you cannot remember, or are you saying it did not happen? MR MOGAPI Chairperson, I mentioned that I never visited her, because Linda stayed with her in the room. I never visited Linda in that room, or I never accompanied Linda to that room. They were - they lived together, so how would I go there? I have never been there. We have never been together with Linda and instructed her to put it in the wardrobe, I don't know anything about the money. It is not a question of recalling or not recalling, nothing of that sort happened. JUDGE DE JAGER So although you and Linda operated together, you never visited him at home? MR MOGAPI We had our meeting areas. We did not want - who lives where at the end of the day. JUDGE DE JAGER And you weren't present when the money was handed to Popo, or were you? MR MOGAPI I was not present. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Can you think of any reason why Veronica Mabuza should testify as she did, why would she go to court and say that? MR MOGAPI There are many things that might have made her to give evidence against me in court. The first thing is when I was arrested, I never co-operated with the police. The second point is the person who was supposed to testify against us, was intimidated. According to how I saw that person giving evidence in court against me, he was not himself, he was, he looked scared. In other words what he was doing, he was doing forcefully, he was just doing it because he had been told to do so by the police. I thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you would like to ask? ADV SIGODI Yes Chairperson. At the time of the robbery, did you personally know what the money that you had obtained, was going to be used for? MR MOGAPI I had knowledge, a little knowledge though that this money was supposed to be used for the transportation, for releasing our Overall Commander who was at the Johannesburg Hospital. ADV SIGODI In your mind, was it necessary to obtain money to release him from the hospital? Wasn't it possible to just go in as an MK unit and just get the person out of hospital? MR MOGAPI It was necessary to do as planned, because we sat down with our Commander, Mr Bles, all of us, the comrades and the decision reached was that he must be released from the hospital through money, to avoid bloodshed, so that nobody gets injured at the hospital. Because a hospital is a very busy place, now if we carry guns and go to the hospital, and shoot at people, that would be no good at all. Our duty was not to bring hardship to the people who were supposed to protect lives. We needed money to avoid injuries. The police had already been infiltrated, those who were guarding our Commander, that is according to the information. ADV SIGODI Okay. So do you know who of the police, the name of the police who were supposed to be given that money? Who are the police who had been infiltrated? MR MOGAPI I do not know any of them, this is the information I got from my Command and that would be the way to follow, because some of the policemen had been spoken to. ADV SIGODI Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what happened to the money? MR MOGAPI After the money was handed over to Bles, I have never known, I never came to know what happened to that money up to today. CHAIRPERSON Who handed the money to Bles? MR MOGAPI It was Andrew Mathabathe. CHAIRPERSON What sort of vehicle was used, that you drove when the robbery was carried out? MR MOGAPI It is one of these small cars, it is a Conquest. CHAIRPERSON You were also involved in, just to confirm, the Monamodi incident, when a handgrenade was thrown at his house, is that correct? MR MOGAPI Yes, but I was not with the people who threw the grenade, I was a distance away, 300 to 500 metres from Mr Monamodi's house. CHAIRPERSON Were you driving again there? MR MOGAPI I was still driving. CHAIRPERSON You were also involved in the incident involving the attack upon Ms or Ma Sithole's place, is that correct? MR MOGAPI That is correct, I was involved. CHAIRPERSON And what was your involvement there? MR MOGAPI I was the driver. CHAIRPERSON And then, with the incident that took place at the premises of Dr Matsir? MR MOGAPI I am involved. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and what did you do there? MR MOGAPI I was still driving. CHAIRPERSON You were involved in one incident that took place at Mr Shomane's house, is that the first one, that was the attack upon Mr Shomane himself, is that correct? MR MOGAPI I am not involved in that one, where Mr Shomane was attacked. CHAIRPERSON Were you involved in any incident at Mr Shomane's house, either against the tenant whose name is not known, or else against Mr Shomane himself? MR MOGAPI I am involved in that one, where the tenant was attacked. CHAIRPERSON What role did you play there? MR MOGAPI Still sir, I was driving. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kopedi, is my note wrong here, or was it recorded wrong, because I've got it the attack, before we started the evidence, when you described who was involved in where, the first attack, it was Mr Mntambo, Mogapi and Ndlungwane, but now this witness says he wasn't in the second attack on the tenants, he said it was (indistinct), Ndlovu and Mabatha. Is that a mistake then, it should be Mr Mogapi involved in the attack on the tenants, but not in the first one? MR KOPEDI That is right. CHAIRPERSON I will change that then. Yes, Mr Kopedi, do you have any questions arising out of questions that had been put by the panel? MR KOPEDI Nothing, no questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions arising? MS LOCKHAT No questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mogapi, that concludes your testimony. Oh, sorry. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Mogapi, Linda gave evidence and said he himself, Sandile and George were involved in the attack on the tenant and you are George, your name is George, isn't it? MR MOGAPI I am George Mogapi. I think in consultation with our legal representative, there was a problem. You must have noticed that Judge Miller picked that up and it has been corrected. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mogapi, thank you, that concludes your testimony. WITNESS EXCUSED