amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-02 JOHANNESBURG 2 EPHRAIM M NKOSI AM3123/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53848&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110103_jhb_991102.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Are we now going to be commencing with the hearing of Mr E.M. Nkosi? MS LOCKHAT That is correct Chairperson. Amnesty number 3123/96. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, it is number 6 on the roll? Mr Motepe, could you just kindly place yourself on record? MR MOTEPE Adv Jabu Motepe from Pretoria Bar, appearing for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Motepe. MS LOCKHAT Lynn Lockhat, appearing on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Lockhat. Mr Motepe? MR MOTEPE Chairperson and members of the Committee, I have already submitted supplementary affidavits wherein we detailed the nature of the application and the offences so committed and at this stage, we have nothing further to add, unless if ... CHAIRPERSON Do you wish to swear Mr Nkosi in for him to confirm the contents? MR MOTEPE Should I do that Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I will do that. EPHRAIM M. NKOSI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE As I have already indicated Chair, I have already submitted supplementary affidavits wherein we detail the nature of the offences and the application itself. I don't know at this stage, if there is any point of clarification that is required? CHAIRPERSON I think if Mr Nkosi can confirm the correctness of his application, of his statements that have been filed in support of his application, and also the contents of the supplementary affidavit, just so that they then become evidence. MR MOTEPE Part of the record? Mr Nkosi, the supplementary affidavit that has been filed of the record here, do you confirm the correctness thereof, what you want to tell this Committee? MR NKOSI Yes, I do confirm. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motepe, I think we will mark the supplementary affidavit as Exhibit A. MR MOTEPE As it pleases the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nkosi, do you recall having filled in an application form when you made your application for amnesty? MR NKOSI Very well, yes. CHAIRPERSON And you also recall that subsequent to that, you have made certain statements which are contained in the Bundle of papers before us, do you recall having made those? MR NKOSI Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON And what do you say about those, that application form and statements, do you confirm their contents here again? MR NKOSI Yes, I do concur with every single detail contained in those applications, or in the Bundle. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything further Mr Motepe? MR MOTEPE There is nothing further that we wish to add at this stage Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions that you would like to put to Mr Nkosi? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Yes, thank you Chairperson. I just want to come to your first robbery, and that is on page 4 of this supplementary, Exhibit A, you said yourself and Piet Ncunu robbed an employee of Rosebank hotel. Did you plan that operation yourself? MR NKOSI The planning of the robbery itself, we sat down, myself and Ncunu after I had been shown the place, and I was part of the planning therefore. MS LOCKHAT What did you require that money for? MR NKOSI The Commission will be aware of the fact that I included or inserted in the affidavit, in my affidavit, the situation under which I was after I had been encountered, or after I had encountered the Security Branch and after they discovered that I am a member of the African National Congress. Now there were weapons and materials of the organisation which were harboured in some veld that I was supposed to go and collect. That is the very reason that I found myself in the robbery. MS LOCKHAT So for who would you have collected these weapons, for yourself? MR NKOSI My affidavit explains it quite clear, that the task I was given was to plan, arrange the network for the ANC underground in the Natal Machinery. Now, those firearms were not mine or for my use as such, but for the organisation at large. JUDGE DE JAGER Who gave you this instruction? MR NKOSI Well, as a member underground, I had my direct contact with the command structure of the MK, by the name of Maurice Siabelo and Jabulani Thumani as well. CHAIRPERSON What did you need money for to collect arms from caches and arrange for DLB's and that sort of thing? MR NKOSI I have explained crystal clear in my affidavit honourable Commissioner, that when I was at Iscor, I went to fetch the firearms and distributed them within, but they had not reached the ultimate place where they were meant to be, or to the end users so to say. Now, there were problems I encountered, namely the Special Branch, they discovered that I am well connected with the underground structure of the ANC, not that I was going to purchase the firearms, but I was removing them to another place where they were supposed, or where they were meant to be ultimately. CHAIRPERSON The question was why did you need money to move firearms from one place to the other? MR NKOSI When I was with Iscor, I worked for or under the Transport Department, I used the organisation's vehicles, I used the Iscor's vehicle to fetch these weapons or firearms. Now I was removed or moved from the Traffic Department, transferred to the other department, now I had no transport now to bring all my tasks to fruition. I had no contact as well with my Commanders, as a result I had now to make a plan to get or gather those weapons to the right or rightful place. CHAIRPERSON So the money was to be used to hire vehicles, and that sort of thing? MR NKOSI Certainly. CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson. Tell me, and this first robbery at the Rosebank hotel, Peter Ncunu was with you, right? MR NKOSI Yes. MS LOCKHAT That, did you give him money for this operation as well, did you pay him seeing that he was a common criminal as you have stated? MR NKOSI As I joined this whole agenda, Peter Ncunu had his own money because he had to use it for his own intentions. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, did you share the money that you got from the robbery, equal? MR NKOSI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER You stated that you had to hire a vehicle. Did you hire a vehicle? MR NKOSI After I had committed these offences, three of them, I think the money gathered there, the summation will not be more than R10 000. I bought ... JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry sir, I only asked you did you hire a vehicle? MR NKOSI I bought the money after I had collected and put together other funds as well. CHAIRPERSON So you say you bought a vehicle? MR NKOSI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Ms Lockhat, just one quick question Mr Nkosi, these three robberies you mentioned, these first three, what was the time period from the first one to the last one? MR NKOSI It would have been between two and three months. CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT I just want to go on to the Flamingo Dry Cleaners incident, is that okay Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON You can go wherever you like, Ms Lockhat. MS LOCKHAT It is the second robbery. The second robbery, Peter Ncunu and Dave was involved with you. Was there anybody else involved with you? MR NKOSI No. MS LOCKHAT And whose operation was this? MR NKOSI Ncunu was quite knowledgeable. You recall this one thing, at the time I was stationed in Natal, but Ncunu was quite knowledgeable and had this detailed knowledge in so far as it relates with the area of Johannesburg. So that all the information regarding this whole thing, he furnished to me and thereafter decide. MS LOCKHAT Did your Commanders know about this operation, that is the Flamingo Dry Cleaners' operation? MR NKOSI I did compile a report that incorporated into it, all other offences. MS LOCKHAT Who did you compile the report to? MR NKOSI I sent it to Siabelo Maurice, via Dumani. MS LOCKHAT Was this after all the incidents took place, this report, when did you compile it? MR NKOSI After the offences, after I had already collected the firearms as well and taken them where they were supposed to be and gave details as to where they were. MS LOCKHAT So, in the second robbery as well, you collected R6 000-00, right? Did you also share that equally amongst yourselves? MR NKOSI Yes. MS LOCKHAT Did you know that robbery was not part of the policy of the ANC? MR NKOSI Yes, I know that very well, but I would like to allude to this point. The task I had been given, you will also be given some way to sort of initiate and use your own discretion as the situation presents itself. Now you will have to use your own discretion in the furtherance of the task. This is why you will find things like robbery forming part of this whole thing, but the intention basically was to fulfil the objective politically. MS LOCKHAT And when you gave this report to your Commander, what did he say to you, did he get back to you? Did he say "carry on with all your robberies, carry on with your work?" MR NKOSI I had already explained briefly honourable Commissioner that I compiled the report after I had already bought the car and collected the weapons to a certain place where they were meant to be ultimately. If you take a look at my affidavit, it so explains that my connection with him was no longer as it used to be, because now I found myself in a different situation, but I did discover the fact that they had received my report, the report that I had compiled. MS LOCKHAT So your Commander did not get back to you? MR NKOSI The next time I was in contact with my Commander, was when I had been arrested after all the three offences that I have explained to you - also writing to them as well. MS LOCKHAT Who was your contact person to actually collect the weapons from, when you carried it from one place to another, who was your contact person? MR NKOSI Jabu was my immediate contact person in Swaziland. MS LOCKHAT What is Jabu's full name? MR NKOSI It is Jabulani Ruben Dumani. ADV SIGODI Where is he now? MR NKOSI A year ago or maybe a little more than a year ago, I did gather that he was killed, he died in fact due to natural causes. ADV SIGODI Where did he die? MR NKOSI May you please repeat your question? ADV SIGODI Where did he die? ADV SIGODI Where? MR NKOSI Here in the country. ADV SIGODI Where? MR NKOSI At Boksburg. MS LOCKHAT The third robbery, that was at the petrol garage in Daveyton, that was where you got, you got R8 000-00 in that robbery, you stated further that "... I used my share ..." That is on page 8 of Exhibit A. CHAIRPERSON Paragraph 8? MS LOCKHAT Page 8, oh, it is paragraph 8, thank you Chairperson, the last sentence there, the third last sentence "... I used my share to secure the DLB's, commonly known as arm caches, and distribute them to relevant operatives." Who are these relative operatives that you distributed these arms caches to? MR NKOSI As I have already explained earlier on, my major task was to set the network within the country and recruit as well. Other people I had already recruited, who were operating from within, are the ones I will give tasks to. One of them being Mathe. MS LOCKHAT Did you recruit, I see you participated in all these incidents, you didn't recruit any more operatives and got them involved in incidents that you were involved in, why not? MR NKOSI The affidavit will clearly show that the part of the situation that got me into trouble, was to recruit, so that I recruited a lot for the organisation, the ANC that is. JUDGE DE JAGER During the first robbery, apart from the R8 000-00, you also robbed the Mercedes Benz, the third robbery. CHAIRPERSON The third robbery. MR NKOSI Well, when we get to the third robbery, we had no transport. We used that car as a way of escaping or as something we could escape with. After we had been away from the area, we deserted the car. JUDGE DE JAGER What happened to the car you bought? You bought a car, what happened to that car? MR NKOSI I will request the Commissioner to understand this, I am attempting to explain about the offences or the incidents. The three incidents happened under one context, so that I bought the car after the three robberies as I had already said that these happened within two, three months earlier on. I did not rob or commit the first incident and then went to purchase the car and thereafter went on with the second offence. After I had done or committed the three offences, or after the three incidents and had obtained enough or sufficient funds, although it was not quite sufficient, I managed to get a car and was thereafter able to bring all the tasks or the work to fruition as intended. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nkosi, if one takes a look, I hear what you say, you embarked on, you together with Ncunu, embarked on three armed robberies? MR NKOSI Certainly. CHAIRPERSON Your intention, not Ncunu's, but your intention was to accumulate sufficient funds to purchase a motor vehicle so that you could carry out your functions, that was your motivation? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, if one just takes a look at the risk control, if you were arrested during the course of one robbery, armed robbery with a gun, you would have to agree that you were facing a serious charge, a very serious charge, that you could be put away for a long time. And if you were arrested in respect of three robberies, also with guns, you are facing a very serious situation, why not just steal a car? And if you are caught then, okay, it is still serious, but not nearly as serious as three armed robberies? MR NKOSI Yes, that is a fact. It could have been another option, but the risk involved in this thing, in the car theft, go get the first load of firearms, take them where they were supposed to be, keep the stolen car, again went back to the veld, gather the second load of weapons or firearms, all that following this procedure, keeping in my possession the stolen car, I thought that was now a greater risk than the one I settled for. CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT I want to move on to your offences after your arrest, that was your escapes from prison. You attempted to escape in 1979, 1980 and 1991 you finally escaped. What was your political objective, what were you trying to achieve when you were attempting to escape from prison? MR NKOSI For you to understand me, I will approach it this way - after the Special Branch was after me and realising that contacting my Commander, explaining to him that the situation has changed, things are bad, now my works are being brought to the surface, what should I do, must I escape or what and he said to me, I am talking about the time when I was still outside, then he said to me because the weapons are still there and intact, try to collect them first and afterwards we will talk about your escape. In other words, first things first. Unfortunately now I am arrested. Because I was there in prison and never was taken to the island, Robben Island, now it remained as an option for me to escape and go to exile. This is how it fits or my escape, this is how it fits in the whole picture. MS LOCKHAT But after your escape in 1991, you didn't go into exile, you stayed in Soweto and then you moved to Natal? MR NKOSI I escaped on the 12th of August, it was on a Wednesday. On Thursday, the 13th of August, the heroes of the MK went to hid the Voortrekkerhoogte in Pretoria. Now the situation got volatile, we had to hide, go in hiding because there were roadblocks mounted left, right and centre. Now we could not escape or go to exile immediately. MS LOCKHAT You were eventually caught in Natal while George Mntambo was trying to conduct another robbery, isn't that so? MR NKOSI Yes. MS LOCKHAT Did you also participate in that robbery? MR NKOSI You will notice honourable Commissioner, that in the affidavit I forwarded to you, I did not hesitate to tell the Commission the one part I participated in the robbery, in relation to the politics. The Standerton one, I did not participate in that robbery. But then again as George Mntambo being a person who got recruited by myself and set him free from prison, I got him out of prison, I therefore will take the responsibility in full. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just to go back a little bit, Mr Nkosi. You said that you escaped on the 12th of August 1991 and then on the 13th of August, Voortrekkerhoogte was attacked? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON That attack on Voortrekkerhoogte took place in the mid or early 1980's, it was not in 1991, because the armed struggle had already come to an end by August 1991? MR NKOSI No, I think the year is wrong, right there. On the 13th of August ... CHAIRPERSON If you look at paragraph 11 of your supplementary statement, there it says "On the 12th of August we finally succeeded to escape, we went to Soweto, we were to leave the country. Incidentally MK attacked Voortrekker base in Pretoria ..." etc, that attack on the Voortrekkerhoogte, I know, did not take place in 1991, because I personally sat in the amnesty application relating to that attack. MR NKOSI Yes, that is so. That is correct what you have said. What I think, it is a printing error here, on the 1991. CHAIRPERSON So when did you escape then? MR NKOSI 1981. CHAIRPERSON 1981? MR NKOSI Sure. Just one minute. CHAIRPERSON Do you want us to amend this? MR NKOSI On the 12th of August 1980 ... CHAIRPERSON So you want us to amend the 1991, to read 1981? Do you want us to amend 1991 to read 1981? MR NKOSI 1980, August 12. CHAIRPERSON 1980? MR NKOSI Sure. MR MOTEPE Chairperson, may I quickly clarify this point with my applicant? It has to be 12 August 1991, the reason being in paragraph 10, 1981 yes. As the Chairperson will note on paragraph 10, there was an attempted escape in 1980. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and then this one didn't take ten years later, it just took a few months later? MR MOTEPE No, immediately thereafter. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I accept that Mr Motepe, yes. MS LOCKHAT Just the last two aspects I want to deal with. It is just the attempted murder, that is at paragraph 10 of the policeman and you were never charged with that. Was that purely just for escape purposes, what was your political objective in relation to that? MR NKOSI It was to escape. MS LOCKHAT And then just the last one which you also apply for amnesty for, is at paragraph 3, it was June 1976, there was a boycott and I want to know what are you applying for amnesty here for, exactly, for burning of the buses or what? I am not too clear on that, can you just explain that to me? MR NKOSI Well, according to the boycott, a depot was set alight or was burnt including the buses at night. Now, that is the reason why I am seeking amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Did you play any role in that, in the arson? MR NKOSI Yes, I did play a role. CHAIRPERSON What role did you play? MR NKOSI This depot is not too far away where I was residing. It is myself who furnished the information of the situation regarding the security and it is myself as well, who gave the information about the petrol pump, that we took and used, got it from inside and set the whole, entire place, alight. That was the key role I played. MS LOCKHAT I have no further questions in relation to this. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Motepe, do you have any re-examination? MR MOTEPE I have no re-examination thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager, do you have any questions that you would like to put? JUDGE DE JAGER I see you have six previous convictions, is that correct? MR NKOSI Please repeat, because the first part of your question, I did not get. JUDGE DE JAGER Is it correct that you have six previous convictions? MR NKOSI Not the previous, but the very cases that I am arrested for, that I am serving a sentence for, now currently, in prison. JUDGE DE JAGER The first one, you hit a 60 year old black man with an iron on the head and robbed R10 000-00? MR NKOSI I think you are mistaken honourable Chair, except if you are referring to the situation or to the incident of Standerton which is the very case I have been sentenced for. I have received a life sentence for it. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nkosi, where Judge de Jager is getting this information from, is from page 93 of the Bundle, it is a prison, the computer print-out relating to yourself and at the bottom it says that the police station was Parkview, Southern Transvaal, description of crime, robbery black man, 60 year old, hit with an iron on the head, cash R10 000, you see, that is where that comes from. What do you say to that ... (transcriber's own interpretation) MR NKOSI I will request the Commissioner to be quite aware of the fact that there are so many things that were false, that went on and were not necessarily the truth or the position as I sit here, to an extent that the Investigator of the Commission, of the TRC, did discover that the information that was put into my file in the computer in prison, does not coincide or does not correspond with the things that I have been charged for and convicted for in prison. CHAIRPERSON So you deny this, you dispute this? MR NKOSI Completely yes. CHAIRPERSON Because there is also other matters here, one is - I can recall seeing it was robbing a fellow while under the influence of alcohol for R140-00, you hit somebody with your fist while drunk? MR NKOSI That is not true, it has nothing to do with me. I would also like to explain one more thing here ... MR MOTEPE Chairperson, can I just come in and just make sure, aren't you referring to George Mntambo? CHAIRPERSON You see if you take a look at the very last page, page 94. MR MOTEPE Page 93? CHAIRPERSON 94. MR MOTEPE 94? CHAIRPERSON Then you will see at the top right hand corner, it says "page 1", do you see, right under 94, page 1? MR MOTEPE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then it has got family name, Nkosi. First names Ephraim, Methodist Church, all that sort of stuff, you see, and then you go backwards, page 2 is 93. Page 92 is page 3 of that document, because I did think that that might be so, but it seems like it refers to Mr Nkosi? MS LOCKHAT Yes, and it refers to the accomplices, that is Mr Mntambo? CHAIRPERSON Yes, you see. They've just got it back to front here, page 90 should be page 94 and it should go the other way, but it is going backwards if you take a look at the page numbers. Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions? ADV SIGODI You mentioned in your affidavit that you were trained in Luanda in 1976, who trained you in Luanda? MR NKOSI My instructor in Luanda was Shekesheke and I received a crash course. ADV SIGODI Can you just spell that for me? MR NKOSI Shekesheke. ADV SIGODI Was that his code name or was that his real name? MR NKOSI Yes, it was the code name according to my knowledge. ADV SIGODI And what was the real name? MR NKOSI When I got into the crash course and I finished the course, I did not seem to get his real name. ADV SIGODI Did you also have a code name? MR NKOSI Yes. ADV SIGODI What was your code name? MR NKOSI Themba Dlamini was mine. ADV SIGODI How long were you in Luanda? MR NKOSI I was there for three weeks because I was on leave from Iscor where I was employed, the fourth week I left. ADV SIGODI You mentioned in your - what was the name of the unit where you were in Luanda, where you got your training? MR NKOSI Maybe I should explain briefly again. My position was different because I had to go there to receive a special training and subsequently come back on a special mission. Now, my position was quite different from the other normal ones who went through the transit camps and as the usual procedure went ... (tape ends) ... came back immediately. As it will be the case within the country, receive a crash course without joining any particular unit, that is how it is. ADV SIGODI And who recruited you to Luanda? MR NKOSI I joined the ANC in 1973 myself, so that when I went to Luanda, it had been quite some time I had had established contact with the ANC. ADV SIGODI Yes, but who recruited you, who told you to go to Luanda and told you what to do when you got there? MR NKOSI I had a contact person who was my Commander, the one I went on with, and communicated with about the situation prevailed within the country at the time. Siabelo Maurice was the person, my Commander that is, who also gave me the instructions. ADV SIGODI In respect of the three robberies, how were the targets identified, what criteria did you use to identify the targets? MR NKOSI The first time when Ncunu gave me information, and illustrated the whole thing or the whole process as how things were going on, the first criteria was the fact that we should ensure that no blood is shed. ADV SIGODI In other words, you got the information from Ncunu? MR NKOSI Ncunu, as I said earlier on, that he knew and had so much information regarding various robberies, but because I had this particular intention myself, I chose or settled for the ones I had identified, because to me they seemed quite easier. CHAIRPERSON I think what Adv Sigodi is just trying to find out, is what happened. We know that a robbery was held at the Rosebank hotel, we know that a man and a woman were robbed outside their premises of the vehicle, and we also know about the Standerton matter, which was a bit different from the other two. Was it Peter Ncunu who came and said "look, Rosebank hotel is a place to rob" or was it you who went and said, identified the target and went to Piet Ncunu and said "let's rob the Rosebank", this is what she is trying to establish. MR NKOSI Thank you. Maybe I shall first explain briefly that after it was clear that I am supposed to take a few, or have some initiative about the weapons that were kept there, my communication with Ncunu was one other way that I was going to put him to use myself, to be able to bring all my objectives, political, into fruition so that when he will identify places, that are supposed to be robbed, I pretty much agreed with him to follow all the criteria that was supposed to. In other words, I am trying to explain that Ncunu was one close person, I worked with him and I used him as well to implement all these plans I had, until such time that I got arrested. ADV SIGODI What concerns me is that if you look at the targets, or the people who were robbed, they would be according to ANC, what would be termed "soft targets", and at that time it wasn't ANC policy to attack soft targets? MR NKOSI Well, the situation we are in now, the applications I have made myself, I did not request amnesty for killing a person who is a target. I am here requesting amnesty because I have committed an act that had an intention, political, or had a political intention. By so saying, I am trying to say or explain that all the people who are implicated here, were not directly identified or pointed, that they were the ones ideally who were supposed to carry this, so that the question of whether they were being soft targets or hard targets, I would like to reiterate and emphasise the fact that I had no target and evidently no one died. ADV SIGODI I will leave it at that. Where is Peter Ncunu now? MR NKOSI Peter Ncunu has since died. I think after 12 years he was in prison. In prison he was discovered that he took some poison and thereafter died resultantly. CHAIRPERSON Just one point, Mr Nkosi, this cache of arms you talk about, you said that you had to move it from one place to another place. Where was this cache of arms that you had to move? MR NKOSI As I had already explained, honourable Commissioner, we wanted to strengthen the Natal, so that in places like Piet Retief, Wakkerstroom, Oshoek, it was the border, that is where these weapons were harboured, and they were intended to be taken to Natal. CHAIRPERSON So they were in various places? MR NKOSI They were in various places, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you were intending to move them to where, Newcastle? MR NKOSI To Natal, Pietermaritzburg, Midlands, in Natal. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you in fact succeed in moving some of them? MR NKOSI Partly because of, a partial amount of that money bought the car, deposited the car as it was my car, I was able now to fetch and distribute the different ... JUDGE DE JAGER Okay, where exactly did you fetch it, on which farm, the name of the farm, was it at Piet Retief and where did you take it and where did you dump it again? MR NKOSI The nature of my training and the way I was trained to sketch the maps, I was not necessarily trained or educated that I was supposed to learn first the owner of the farm, but what I would know is the fact that if I now want them, how would I get them. I managed to get them and forwarded them to Natal. After the whole thing was banned, the armed struggle, all those weapons were taken back to the ANC as per agreement of the Groote Schuur and Magnus Malan. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Motepe, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel? MR MOTEPE Chairperson, I believe everything has been clarified. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE CHAIRPERSON Do you have any questions arising, Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT No, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nkosi. That then concludes your testimony. MR NKOSI I would also like to thank you. The one thing I would like to state to you, amongst other summons or papers I got or documents I got to request me, that brings me here, it appears as though I committed a murder or some person there was killed somehow. I would like to explain that that also is not true. The last thing is I would like to explain or say to all the people who are implicated or who were victimised by my acts, I would like to ask for forgiveness. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nkosi. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Motepe? MR MOTEPE Chairperson, perhaps one should start with ... CHAIRPERSON You are not leading any further evidence? MR MOTEPE No, not at all. CHAIRPERSON No evidence Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT No, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Motepe? MR MOTEPE IN ARGUMENT Perhaps one can start with the convictions that are apparently linked with the applicant here. The applicant has already explained that even the Investigating Officer of the TRC did discover that there were some information that were not correlating with his file. At the moment we don't have the record of the proceedings of these particular convictions. My information is that they have all been destroyed. CHAIRPERSON I think that is apparent from the Bundle, various attempts have been made and there are various letters there, saying that they are not available, they have been destroyed in the normal procedure. You know they keep them for a certain amount of years, and then destroy them. MR MOTEPE That is correct. In the circumstances then, these matters really as there have not been so verified and the only evidence we've got is that of the applicant, my submission is that they should not prejudice the applicant in this application for amnesty. They should not even fall into the picture. Then when it comes to the offences that the applicant is applying for, firstly starting with the robberies, it is my submission that the motive was very clear, the arms were there. As in any war situation, arms have to be moved around for specific purposes. It is for that reason that the applicant sought to acquire finances in order to move these weapons around for the intended purposes. In my submission, he has given a full disclosure on those robberies. The nature of the acts themselves, are very clear, that they were politically motivated, there was no personal gain. Specifically that he was a member of MK, member of a well known liberation movement, and he carried his tasks as ordered and at times at his own initiative, but within the political objective. When it comes to the escapes, once more one will know that in a war situation, people are arrested and they attempt to escape, to further their war objective. Those are acts of war, and there was nothing sinister in the applicant trying to escape in all his attempts. It is in that vein that I submit that the applicant has satisfied all the requirements of the Act. His actions were clearly, clearly political. There was no personal gain, no personal malice of any sort. It is my submission that the applicant is entitled to amnesty, on all the offences that he has asked amnesty for. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT IN ARGUMENT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Nkosi's evidence, just generally, he was a very evasive witness in a sense, he could never give us any specifics. We would ask him for example where exactly was he supposed to pick up these weapons and he could never really give us conclusive answers. In relation to the armed robbery incidents, it seems that Mr Nkosi associated himself with criminal elements like Peter Ncunu for instance and they embarked on all these armed robberies and the money was shared between all of them, but in his instance, he is telling us that his intentions were different to all, to the other persons involved in the robberies and that his sole intention was just to move arms. It seems the only way he did fulfil one of his intentions was in buying his own car eventually, and it doesn't sound as if he did get to move any of the arms. He also mentions about him trying to recruit persons, but he cannot also tell us exactly tell us the persons that he was able to recruit as MK's, and even in his operations that he undertook, he still associated himself with the criminals, and there were no other operatives involved in any of the other operations. The escapes from prison, it just seems another attempt for him just to obviously be out of prison and there was no real political objectives in those instances. The fact that he does eventually escape, he still associates himself with George Mntambo and three other persons as well, who he also calls criminals, and he associates himself with that as well. And then unfortunately he is involved in another incident, another armed robbery with George Mntambo, and his reasons for - he said one of the reasons for him to leave the country, was to leave the country or to go into exile, but it didn't seem as if many attempts were also conducted in order for him to actually get out there. It is my submission that these armed robberies were done for personal gain, and that there was no political motivation or objectives obtained by them. There is one submission I would like to make in favour if Mr Nkosi, on a more personal level, that I was absolutely impressed by reading the documentation relating to Mr Nkosi, that he is such a star prisoner, and that he has embarked on higher education and he is also the Chairperson of education at the prisons and that for me, was really uplifting, when I read his application. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Lockhat. Do you have any response or reply Mr Motepe? MR MOTEPE IN REPLY I do have. Chairperson, my learned colleague has accused the applicant of being evasive in his answers, but if one looks at the totality of his answers, one will know that he attempted, and actually succeeded in most cases, to even give us the names, notwithstanding the fact that this incidents happened in the 1980's. To be honest and with respect to my learned colleague, I cannot remember any specific instance where Mr Nkosi did not, could not answer satisfactorily. I beg to differ with my learned colleague's observations in that regard. As far as association with criminal elements is concerned, it is very easy at the moment, while we are sitting with the benefit of airconditioners and all that, to say that one shouldn't associate ... JUDGE DE JAGER It is not working in this building. CHAIRPERSON The benefit of fans. MR MOTEPE At least the fan. We cannot then say that at the moment, when he had to commit these things, let us remember that he was in Johannesburg, he was not sure, he was not particularly aware of the surrounding areas, the person who had knowledge of the targets they could hit and the geographical areas, was this Ncunu. This was the perfect tool for him to use at the particular time and it is true, he was a criminal and the applicant has also disclosed that fact, that Mr Ncunu was actually a well known criminal, but he used him for political objectives and in my submission, there is nothing sinister, especially looking at the context in which it happened. About the names of the recruits that he couldn't remember, the people he recruited, once more the applicant has tried as far as he could, to give us all the necessary names, even his handlers. He cannot be expected to remember each and every single recruit that he ever controlled. Surely he cannot be expected to do that, but in the evidence that he gave, he gave sufficient information on which this Committee can make a favourable decision. As to the question of escape, that he in escaping he was in the company of criminals, it is only logical that while in prison, he especially in the common law prisons, not Robben Island as he explained, he will be in contact with criminals there. Some of whom will seek to turn away from their previous deeds and look at the political struggle. In his escape, he couldn't carry it alone, surely he needed help, and in his judgement at the particular time, he used his fellow inmates who were incidentally criminals, but it did set him free at the end, although momentarily, but he did manage to escape. The main thing is that all these escapes were an act of war, if one could say so. He wanted to escape in order to skip the country and in my submission, there is not even evidence on the side of the, of my learned colleague, to suggest that the applicant at least is wrong in his evidence, and in my submission, his evidence, it stands undisputed and he should succeed in his application, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, Mr Motepe. We will reserve our decision in this matter, and that brings this particular hearing to an end. Would this be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment and then after lunch, we will commence with another matter? After lunch we will proceed with the next matter, I am not quite sure which one it will be, but it will be either the application of Mr Madonsela or that of Mr Sithole, one of the two. MR MOTEPE The one of Mr Madonsela. CHAIRPERSON Is that the one, Mr Madonsela's application, thank you. We will take the lunch adjournment now. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS