amntrans AMNESTY COMMITTEE 1999-11-03 JOHANNESBURG 3 FOREMAN MNGOMEZULU AM0187/96 MURDER OF A MUNYANKENI & P NKUMALO ABDUCTION AND ASSAULT OF B NGABO AND M DUNGA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53850&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110103_jhb_991103.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. This morning we will be starting with a new application. Mr Motepe, is this the application of Mr Sithole? MS LOCKHAT It is the application of Foreman Mngomezulu Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mngomezulu? MS LOCKHAT That is right. CHAIRPERSON Okay. We will be doing then the application of Mr Mngomezulu, which is number 7 on our roll. Mr Motepe, you are appearing for Mr Mngomezulu, is that right? MR MOTEPE That is correct, Jabu Motepe from the Pretoria Bar, appearing for the applicant. MS LOCKHAT Lynn Lockhat, appearing on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Motepe? MR MOTEPE Chairperson, I thought the Chair would swear the applicant in. CHAIRPERSON I will swear him in. FOREMAN MNGOMEZULU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Motepe? EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE Mr Mngomezulu, you are the applicant in this matter and you have made your application for amnesty, can you kindly explain to this Committee what your application is about, what are you applying for? MR MNGOMEZULU It is for murdering certain people. These people had murdered the Secretary of the Youth League, and we went to fetch them and on arriving at their home, we discovered that there were weapons and knives. The murdered comrade had parts of his body removed. MR MOTEPE Mr Mngomezulu, do you still remember the date when this thing happened, when they killed this comrade of yours? MR MNGOMEZULU It was on the 20th and we killed them on the 21st. CHAIRPERSON Of what month and year? MR MNGOMEZULU 21st of March 1992. MR MOTEPE The month? INTERPRETER March. MR MOTEPE You say on the 21st of March you took them to the sports ground, where did you take them from? MR MNGOMEZULU We picked them up from their houses. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Motepe, Mr Mngomezulu, whereabout was this, which town was it in? You say you fetched them from their houses? MR MNGOMEZULU Daveyton, Mandela Section. CHAIRPERSON And you took them from their houses to the sports ground? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, that is correct. We assaulted them with sjamboks while we were at the sports ground, and that is where we burnt their bodies. MR MOTEPE Who were you with at that particular time? MR MNGOMEZULU It was a large crowd of comrades and the community. MR MOTEPE But I see at your trial there were only four of you appearing, why is that? MR MNGOMEZULU When we were arrested, there were 29 of us. The others were given bail and they were never recalled. MR MOTEPE Mr Mngomezulu, can you explain the particular role that you took from the time that you removed them from their homes, to the sports ground, what were you doing? CHAIRPERSON That is you yourself, not you the crowd? You yourself personally? MR MNGOMEZULU I assaulted them with a sjambok and we then went to the sports ground. MR MOTEPE When you say we burnt them, are you saying you also partook in burning them, and can you explain ... MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, I did personally take part in that. CHAIRPERSON What ... MR MOTEPE Was there anything that you ... MR MNGOMEZULU I was present all the time when they were being burnt. MR MOTEPE But who burnt them, was it yourself or was it somebody else in your company? MR MNGOMEZULU The person who burnt them was Samuel Nigene, one other comrade. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Motepe, just before you proceed, if I could just get a bit more information. You keep talking Mr Mngomezulu that you took them from the houses and burnt them. How many people were abducted, were taken from their houses and taken to the sports ground and sjamboked and burnt? MR MNGOMEZULU There were two who we killed and burnt and there were some other girls that we just assaulted and left. The people whom we did not kill were those who were innocent of the crime of killing the other comrade. CHAIRPERSON And sorry who were these people? Do you know their names and if not ... MR MNGOMEZULU I do not recall their names. CHAIRPERSON Did they belong to any group or movement or did they have any particular political affiliation? MR MNGOMEZULU They were the people who collaborated with the police, such that each time that we had meetings, the police would be after us all the time, and they also admitted that they collaborated with the police. That was one of the reasons that prompted us to carry out this action. CHAIRPERSON What was your particular political affiliation, if any, at the time? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, I was a member of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Motepe. MR MOTEPE Mr Mngomezulu, as the elder in the community, what position were you holding in the ANC? MR MNGOMEZULU I was just responsible for protecting the community, I was in the Self Defence Unit. MR MOTEPE I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Before I hand over to Ms Lockhat, the burning of these two people who died, how was that done? Was petrol used or was it the so-called necklacing with rubber tires? How were they burnt? MR MNGOMEZULU They were doused with petrol. CHAIRPERSON And the size of the crowd that had gathered at the sports stadium when this happened, can you give some indication? You said 29 people were arrested, but was that the total amount of the crowd or was there more, were there more people there? MR MNGOMEZULU It was a large crowd, I cannot estimate, but it was just the whole community. CHAIRPERSON Do you know how it came about that those particular people, the two that were killed as well as the others that you said some girls were just assaulted, how those particular people were identified by the group or persons in the group as being collaborators? Why were they particularly chosen as victims? MR MNGOMEZULU We approached them in the morning and on arrival at their homes, we discovered firearms and knives that were smeared with blood. On discovering that the comrade's body had some parts missing, we enquired from them or questioned them, and they admitted that they were responsible for his death. CHAIRPERSON What was the name of the dead comrade ... MR MNGOMEZULU His name was Mzibinzi and he was from Umtata. CHAIRPERSON Umtata, where I come from, the same place? MR MNGOMEZULU I think so. CHAIRPERSON You mean Umtata, Transkei? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Okay, sorry what did you say his name was? MR MNGOMEZULU Mzibinzi. CHAIRPERSON Mzibinzi? Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions you would like to ask? MR MOTEPE Chairperson, before Ms Lockhat comes in, may I ask just a last question? CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly Mr Motepe. MR MOTEPE Mr Mngomezulu, during your court trial, you testified that you were in Pietersburg when this whole thing happened, that you never took part in burning the people. Why now are you giving a different version? CHAIRPERSON Also Mr Motepe, before he answers, he also said that in a statement submitted to the TRC, after he made application. MR MOTEPE About the Pietersburg? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MOTEPE That is correct. Mr Mngomezulu, during your court trial and in some of your papers, your application papers, you mention that you were in Pietersburg when this incident took place. Now you have just explained to us that you were present, you actually took part, why is there a difference in explanation? MR MNGOMEZULU At that time we were trying to free ourselves from being in prison and at the time, we were being assaulted by the police as well, that is why I did not tell the truth. CHAIRPERSON But - I understand that, but when you made some submissions to the Truth Commission in one of the statements you made, you - in a letter in 1997 I think - you said the same thing? MR MNGOMEZULU I have realised that this Commission is where I should tell the truth. CHAIRPERSON Because you see on page 6, at the bottom, this is in a letter addressed to the Amnesty Committee, you say "... when this crime was committed, I was not present, I was in Pietersburg on my duty as a traditional doctor." Why would you want to tell that to the Amnesty Committee? MR MNGOMEZULU I wrote so, but I was prepared to come up here before the Committee and tell the truth as it happened, because this is where we must tell the truth and reconcile. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motepe, do you have any ... MR MOTEPE I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, could I just, also on page 10 you made an affidavit stating under oath "... I was not even near the scene." MS LOCKHAT That is the affidavit of Samuel Nkosi. CHAIRPERSON Samuel Nkosi. JUDGE DE JAGER Oh, is that Samuel, oh, it is Samuel Nkosi, the other one, yes. CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? JUDGE DE JAGER It is okay, you need not comment on the statement that I made to you, because that is a statement by Mr Nkosi, not by you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Tell me, who assisted you in drawing up these letters to the Commission and your amnesty application form? MR MNGOMEZULU Somebody, an inmate wrote the letters for me. CHAIRPERSON When you say an inmate, a prisoner? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes. MS LOCKHAT In your application form you said your were the Commander of the Self Defence Unit in 1992, is that correct? MR MNGOMEZULU I was not a Commander. The Commander was shot and killed. MS LOCKHAT So why did you put this in your amnesty application form, that you were the Commander, it is on page 1 of the Bundle? MR MNGOMEZULU That is not true, the Commander was murdered whilst he was still on bail. CHAIRPERSON I know, you have said that, but what Ms Lockhat is asking you is why did you describe yourself in your application form as being the Commander of the SDU? MR MNGOMEZULU I think it was the mistake of the person who wrote on my behalf, I was his deputy. In his absence I would take up the role. MS LOCKHAT Tell me, did you as his deputy, did you call for any meetings in the area in Daveyton area, when he was not there? MR MNGOMEZULU That is correct. We would call meetings if there was a need. MS LOCKHAT Just regarding these victims, who identified them, who informed you that they were collaborating with the police, how did you get that information? MR MNGOMEZULU After we discovered the death of our comrade, and his body had been taken to the mortuary, we approached these people because on the Friday, the day that he was killed, he was in their company, so on Saturday morning, we went to their houses and the evidence that confirmed that they had indeed killed him, was the weapons, the firearms and the knives that were stained with blood and they also themselves admitted that they had killed him. MS LOCKHAT Did they admit to you as well, were you in the presence of the victims when they admitted to you that they had killed this comrade of yours? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, I was present. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, who admitted it, the two people who were killed? Who admitted? MR MNGOMEZULU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So how many other people were taken to the sports ground, besides those two who eventually were killed? Who else was taken to the sports ground for punishment? MR MNGOMEZULU There were two others persons, so in total there would be four that were taken to the sports ground. CHAIRPERSON Those two other persons, were they the girls you referred to? MR MNGOMEZULU It was one girl and one boy, his name is Mongezi and the girl's name is Brenda. CHAIRPERSON And they were just assaulted there? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, they were just assaulted. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS LOCKHAT Why did you take Brenda and Mongezi along if they didn't admit to committing that crime against your comrade? MR MNGOMEZULU They were the persons, they were the family that had hosted these two individuals. MS LOCKHAT And whose decision was it to burn the two victims? MR MNGOMEZULU All the comrades took that decision. CHAIRPERSON Sorry to interpose Ms Lockhat, Mr Mngomezulu, I see from your application form, page 1, that you are applying for amnesty in respect of two murders, assault and also two robberies. What is the situation relating to the robberies? MR MOTEPE Perhaps I can come in. I believe it was a mistake, it was supposed to be kidnapping, not robbery. In Afrikaans it is "menseroof", so it was ... CHAIRPERSON So, it is just the abduction? MR MOTEPE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Of the four people to the sports ground? MR MOTEPE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you confirm that Mr Mngomezulu? There is no robbery, there wasn't any robbery? MR MNGOMEZULU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. So, can we then amend that to read - I will delete robbery and that will read kidnapping. MR MOTEPE That will be in order. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Motepe. Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT Tell me, this comrade of yours that was killed, was he also your son-in-law? MR MNGOMEZULU That is correct and he had two children. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, you say that - what was he, was he the Secretary of the Youth League? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes. MS LOCKHAT Perhaps you want to clarify, was he the Secretary of the Youth League? MR MNGOMEZULU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON That is the ANC Youth League? MR MNGOMEZULU That is correct. MS LOCKHAT In the criminal trial it was stated that yourself and accused 3, were the persons who actually decided to get the petrol and to actually initiate the burning of these people, is that correct, and that it wasn't really the community? MR MNGOMEZULU The Street Committee can explain better about the fetching of the petrol, because they are the people who fetched the petrol and everybody was agreed on the burning of these two individuals. MS LOCKHAT Is it true that it was your initiation, yourself and accused 3? It is fine that the Street Committee fetched the petrol, but was it your idea? MR MNGOMEZULU No, it was the community. I was part of that. CHAIRPERSON I know, but the community doesn't - when you've got 100 people or 200 people, they don't all, like a choir singing the same thing at the same time, somebody suggests it and then the rest agree, so although at the end of the day it might have been a decision of the community, you need somebody to spark the idea. What Ms Lockhat is asking you is, at the trial you said that you were one of the people who came up with the idea, go and fetch petrol, is that correct? MS LOCKHAT It wasn't that the applicant suggested it, but witnesses in the criminal trial said ... CHAIRPERSON Witnesses in the criminal trial said it was you who suggested that petrol be fetched. What Ms Lockhat is asking you, is that correct or not? Somebody must have made the initial suggestion, which was then agreed upon by all the people present? MR MNGOMEZULU It was the Street Committee that came up with the idea, and we all agreed. CHAIRPERSON Are you a member of the Street Committee? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, I was a member. JUDGE DE JAGER And were you the leader of that Street Committee, the Chairperson? MR MNGOMEZULU No, it wasn't me. JUDGE DE JAGER Who was the leader? MR MNGOMEZULU It was Mr Rasta Mawhela who is deceased now, and we do not know who killed him. MS LOCKHAT Would you say, this is - would you say that the death of your son-in-law was an avenge because it was your son-in-law or because he was the Secretary of the Unit? MR MNGOMEZULU It was not revenge, but it was because of the situation that was initiated by those people. We realised that after killing this comrade, they would also target us, so we realised that they were killing our comrades and we went out looking for them, and we found them and decided that we must deal with them. MS LOCKHAT Were they involved in any other incidents prior to this, the killing of your son-in-law? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, lots. MS LOCKHAT Can you elaborate on those incidents? MR MNGOMEZULU Sometimes they would stab and kill people. We were always on the lookout for them, but because they did not reside in the township, they would move from where they came and they will come to the township to conduct their affairs, and on this particular day, we were able to get hold of them and we questioned them, and they admitted to their crime. MS LOCKHAT In the criminal trial, it was also said that these people were also targeted because they didn't want to belong to your group, is that true? MR MNGOMEZULU That is not true, we did not know those people. MS LOCKHAT Tell me, how did you come to find out that these two people actually killed your comrade, how did you come to know that it was them? CHAIRPERSON I think he said in response to an earlier question that the deceased, the comrade was seen in their possession on the Friday and then they went there on the Saturday and found the blood-stained weapons. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson, I am indebted to you. MR MNGOMEZULU Initially that comrade had informed us that they wanted him to collaborate with them, and he did not wish to do so. He had informed us of this three days prior to his death, and that is why we had very strong suspicions that in fact it was them who killed him. That is also why we went to that house and approached them and found those weapons and questioned them further and they admitted their act and that is when we started assaulting them, after they had admitted the act. JUDGE DE JAGER I've got a problem. You have told us that you suspected them of previous killings, is that correct? MR MNGOMEZULU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Why did the deceased, your comrade, go to them and join them and spent time with them, if he and you people knew that those people are murderers? MR MNGOMEZULU We tried investigating on what their business was at the township, and we learnt that they wanted him to join them and it was evident that they collaborated with the police, because each time we had meetings, the police would shortly thereafter, arrive to disturb us. This we got from the comrade. MS LOCKHAT Tell me, did you also hit the deceased with iron bars? CHAIRPERSON When you say you, do you mean you, plural, the group or him personally? MS LOCKHAT The applicant personally. CHAIRPERSON You yourself, did you use an iron bar to assault the deceased persons or one or both of them? MR MNGOMEZULU No, I had a sjambok in my possession. JUDGE DE JAGER Could you tell me, did you - were they still conscious when you poured the petrol on them and burnt them, or were they in a coma or unconscious at that stage, what was their physical state when you started the burning? MR MNGOMEZULU They were still alive. JUDGE DE JAGER Still standing upright? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, they were still conscious. JUDGE DE JAGER Now who lit the fire? Who struck the match? MR MNGOMEZULU Samuel Nigene. MS LOCKHAT Tell me, wasn't it you, you also, I think one of the deceased asked for water and you said that they should give them petrol to drink rather? Is that true? MR MNGOMEZULU No, it was the Street Committee. ADV SIGODI Who is the Street Committee, who said that? MR MNGOMEZULU Agnes Nkosi. MS LOCKHAT I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Lockhat. Mr Motepe, do you have any re-examination? MR MOTEPE I've got no re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTEPE CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager, do you have any questions that you would like to ask? JUDGE DE JAGER It is still not clear to me why you also lied to the Amnesty Committee, in writing these letters or instructing somebody to write it on your behalf. Why did you not tell the truth in the letters? MR MNGOMEZULU Well, at the time I thought that they were not dissimilar to the police, but I have realised that that is not so, now that I am here. ADV SIGODI Sorry, I still don't understand, I didn't get the answer clearly. What did you think of the TRC? MR MNGOMEZULU I thought they were also working with the police and I have learnt that that is not so, but it is a forum where we should all tell the truth. ADV SIGODI If they were with the police, if you thought that the TRC was in (indistinct) with the police, then why did you apply for amnesty? MR MNGOMEZULU I was not aware of the functioning of the TRC, that is why I did so at the beginning. ADV SIGODI I still don't understand why you would apply for amnesty to the TRC if you did not understand how the TRC operated, or what it stood for. MR MNGOMEZULU The police informed us that there was a TRC through which we could apply and tell the truth about everything that happened. ADV SIGODI And apply so that, what did you expect to get in return if you apply? MR MNGOMEZULU I thought that we would approach the victims of whatever actions that we had to take, and approach them and seek for their forgiveness and reconcile with them. Because whatever happened then, was because of the situation. ADV SIGODI So you thought that you would be able to approach the victims and try to reconcile with them? But if you kept on denying that you were involved, how did you expect to reconcile with the victims? MR MNGOMEZULU If it were not for the TRC, I would not be in a position to meet with those victims, therefore this is the proper forum where we can meet and discuss whatever happened in the past. It was because of the political situations, the fact that we belonged to different organisations, that prompted that situation. ADV SIGODI So you knew that when you filled in your application for amnesty? I am trying to understand? CHAIRPERSON If I may just interject here, you say in your actual application form, the form that you filled in, you indicate that you were involved in the killings, etc, political objective was to achieve, you put it down as if you were a perpetrator, then you write two letters to the Amnesty Committee, one appears on page 5 and the other on page 6, both in 1997, where you deny it, saying you were in Pietersburg, you were not there? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, I did deny the crime in the letters, but I knew that I would be called before this Committee where I would account and I do seek forgiveness. CHAIRPERSON I see from your application form, Mr Mngomezulu, that you say that the deceased, your son-in-law, who you said here was the Secretary of the Youth League, you describe him in the form as "the brutal murder of one of the Umkhonto weSizwe cadres", was he an MK member? MR MNGOMEZULU That is correct. ADV SIGODI Your co-accused, have you been in contact with them, the people you were accused with at the trial? Samuel Nigene, Agnes Nkosi and Simon Ncuna? MR MNGOMEZULU We were placed in different prisons. They are in Benoni, in Modabi, one of them is in Boksburg. Simon Ncuna and myself are in the Maximum prison. ADV SIGODI So are you together with Simon? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes. ADV SIGODI Do you know if he has applied for amnesty in respect of this? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, he is also present. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motepe, do you have any questions arising? MR MOTEPE I've got no questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions arising? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT I just want to check, just in relation to the amnesty application form, your first amnesty application form, I see you signed it there at the bottom on page 3, I don't know if you can just check, is that your signature on page 3? MR MNGOMEZULU That is correct. MS LOCKHAT And the others, page 7, there is the letter as well, and page 5, who signed that for you? Is that your signature on page 5 and on page 9, if Mr Motepe can just show him the signatures. MR MNGOMEZULU No, that is not my signature on page 7. MS LOCKHAT I can see that on page 3, that looked more or less like your signature. Can you read or write? MR MNGOMEZULU I can read Zulu a bit, and I can write the language, not very well. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT JUDGE DE JAGER Could I, you said Simon is here, is it Simon Mnyankene or Simon Ncuna, which one is here? MR MNGOMEZULU Samuel Ncuna. JUDGE DE JAGER Is he present in the hall today, at this hearing? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, he is present. JUDGE DE JAGER Is he still in prison? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, we are both in prison. The four of us are still in prison. JUDGE DE JAGER Do you know whether he has applied for amnesty? MR MNGOMEZULU Yes, he informed me that he had applied. JUDGE DE JAGER And the others, do you know whether they have also asked for amnesty, or do you not know? MR MNGOMEZULU I do not know. MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, if I can just come in here, I see on page 9, there is the letter and I see someone has made an amnesty number 141/96 and I think that it could be next to Simon Ncuna's name, I don't know if you can just - of the Bundle, so I would like to just follow that up as well, after this application. CHAIRPERSON Yes, perhaps you can establish it from the person himself, if he is here. JUDGE DE JAGER And can you perhaps tell us, are there any of the family of the victims present? MS LOCKHAT None of the families of the victims are present. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mngomezulu, that concludes your testimony. MR MNGOMEZULU Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Motepe? MR MOTEPE IN ARGUMENT Chairperson, the applicant here is an illiterate person. It is clear that there are some mistakes that happened during the filling of forms. Myself, during consultation with the applicant, it was very difficult to get through him and one can understand why there are such mistakes. In my submission, he has associated himself with the murders, it is clear that he was there during the kidnappings and the assaults. He clearly associated himself and this incident itself, it is as a result of the killing of their cadre, it was in retaliation of the killing of the Secretary of the Youth League, and that in itself, it does indicate that there was, it was not - let me rather say that there were suggestions that Mzibinzi, the person who was killed, was his son-in-law, it is clear from his evidence that that particular fact, did not play part in deciding the killing of these particular people, it was purely on a political basis that he was a member of the Youth League, and he was killed by the people who they perceived as working with the system at that particular time. In my submission, it is very clear that the applicant did commit those particular acts, in pursuance of a political objective at that particular time as the situation at that time was very volatile. The applicant here has been very clear in his answers, he has sought to answer very directly. It is my submission that he gave us all the information that is required for him to get amnesty. In my submission, he does qualify, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Motepe. Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT IN ARGUMENT Thank you Chairperson. The only issues in relation to this application is indeed the previous application form of the applicant that was submitted to the Commission in 1996 and then the previous letters from the applicant, which is also, which is in contrast to that initial application that he makes. It was in the Commission's view that he was denying guilt to this, after receiving the subsequent letters, but we were still uncertain as to what his position was, because of the criminal record that we received. I think we have to take into account the fact that the applicant is not that, although he says he can read and it seems to me that the signatures are not the same and other people did write these for him and I think the initial application was, I don't even think that was written by him, he just signed it. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think it is quite clear if you take a look at the signature, the rest of the writing, it is not the same person. MS LOCKHAT Yes, exactly. I think the applicant did not take the Commission into his confidence. CHAIRPERSON That is quite clear. MS LOCKHAT That is quite clear. CHAIRPERSON He has admitted he lied? MS LOCKHAT Yes. But we must also look at the fact that people do tend to stick to the story that they used in the criminal record, and my experience with older folk, it just seems that I had previous applications where they stuck to the same story as well that they used in the criminal trial. CHAIRPERSON Well, he was found guilty in the criminal trial, the Court found that he was there and that he lied to the Court. Now he has come and he has said well, he did lie and he also lied to us the same story. He is not a very good liar, but he has at least admitted to lying. MS LOCKHAT Yes Chairperson. And it seems that the applicant also didn't have a clear idea as to what the Commission was all about, he thought he was only going to come to reconcile with the victims. CHAIRPERSON He was suspicious with it, because I think if he was told by the police of it, he thought maybe there is some sort of link. MS LOCKHAT Exactly, by the police, correct. Correct Chairperson. That is basically my submission in this respect. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Motepe, do you have any response? MR MOTEPE I have nothing further Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, we will reserve our decision in this matter and hope to get out a decision as soon as possible. Mr Mngomezulu, thank you Mr Mngomezulu, that concludes your hearing. MR MNGOMEZULU Thank you Chair.