amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-03 JOHANNESBURG 3 HOFFMAN BOY MHLONGO AM4456/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53853&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110103_jhb_991103.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We commence with the application of Mr Hoffman Boy Mhlongo. I would at this stage kindly request the legal representatives please to place themselves on record. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN I am Anina van der Westhuizen, appearing on behalf of the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. MR NYAUZA O.P. Nyauza, appearing on behalf of the victim. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyauza. MS LOCKHAT Lynn Lockhat appearing on behalf of the TRC. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Lockhat. Ms van der Westhuizen? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you honourable Chairperson. The applicant requested me to point out one or two things appearing on his application form, which is not correct. The first one ... CHAIRPERSON We are getting some sort of whaling sound in the earphones, it is - sorry, it is screaming, the earphones are making a noise. Okay, let's see how it goes now, thank you. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you. The first one is the date of the incident for which he is applying for amnesty for, that appears on page 1. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I picked that up when I was reading the papers, yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, the applicant informs me that he cannot remember the exact date on which this incident occurred. He however clearly remembers it was during 1993 and towards the middle of the year. It was also - the record of the court proceedings or the parts attached thereto was shown to him and the date of the 9th of July 1993 is indicated on those documents and he confirms that if that ... CHAIRPERSON That could be the date? He does not dispute... MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN That could indeed be the date, he is not disputing that date. CHAIRPERSON Nothing really turns on what the actual date is? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN He is however applying for all the incidents that happened on that day, specifically the hijacking of a minibus as well as the killing of the taxi-driver, a certain Mr Ngwenya, which took place on that day. Then there is just also on page 1, in which he is asked, it is 7(b) to state the capacity he served in the IFP, it is stated there that he served as Secretary, Jeppe Hostel. He indicated to me that he was in fact the Assistant-Secretary to the Youth Branch at Jeppe Hostel. Thank you honourable Chairperson, those were all the ... CHAIRPERSON Is that all? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN That is all, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Assistant-Secretary of the Youth Branch? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Of the Youth Brigade of the Jeppe Hostel. CHAIRPERSON Of the Youth Brigade at the Jeppe Hostel? Just while we are on this Ms van der Westhuizen, perhaps if you could just give us his date of birth, I see it is not here, date of birth and age, just to get an idea. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN I think I will just go through it under examination, I am planning to lead him on the personal bit. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do you want him sworn in? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN He has not yet been sworn in. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I will swear him in. HOFFMAN BOY MHLONGO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen? EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mhlongo, where and when were you born? MR MHLONGO I was born in Ladysmith. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN How old are you now? MR MHLONGO I am 33 years old. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Did you attend school in Ladysmith? MR MHLONGO In Nkandla, that is where I went to school. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Were you married? MR MHLONGO Traditionally, yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Do you have any children? MR MHLONGO Yes, I do. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN I just want to question you now a bit on your political background and your affiliation with the IFP. Can you remember when you joined the IFP? MR MHLONGO In 1975 at school, I joined the organisation. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Was it a party then or was it some other sort of organisation at that stage? CHAIRPERSON Was that the stage when the IFP was still a cultural organisation, before it had become a political movement or party, when you joined it in 1975? MR MHLONGO It was then the ... INTERPRETER Inkatha weSizwe, that is how you call it, it is a bit difficult to interpret that. CHAIRPERSON Were you nine years old when you joined it? MR MHLONGO I wasn't nine years, but the entire family is Inkatha. CHAIRPERSON Because why I say that is because you say you are 33 years now, 1975 was 24 years ago, 24 and 9 makes 33, so that makes you nine years old? What year were you born in, do you know? MR MHLONGO The reason why I say that is because that was my first year at school. JUDGE DE JAGER Can you perhaps remember your ID number? MR MHLONGO No, I don't know that off-hand. CHAIRPERSON So anyway, when you went to school, you became involved with the IFP as it then was? Is that correct? MR MHLONGO Yes, the school you will join in your capacity as a student. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And you stated, is it correct, that your whole family actually supported the IFP? MR MHLONGO Yes, that is true. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN When you moved to Johannesburg, where did you obtain work? MR MHLONGO I worked in Braamfontein hotel. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN From which year more or less, until which year did you work at the Braamfontein hotel? MR MHLONGO 1987 until 1993. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Were you still working there when you were arrested for this matter? MR MHLONGO Yes, I was arrested on duty at work. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN After you moved to Johannesburg, were you still involved with the IFP in any, maybe formed part of their structures and can you just explain to the honourable Committee? MR MHLONGO I have been playing this role ever since. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN What role, can you just describe that for the Committee please? MR MHLONGO Because when I got here in Johannesburg, I was a follower of the organisation and always interacted with the people, or with the fellow members in the organisation. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And your position as Assistant-Secretary, which Branch was that? MR MHLONGO Jeppe Hostel. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Mhlongo, did you used to live in the Jeppe Hostel? MR MHLONGO Sometimes yes, because I had my bed there. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Can you just explain to the Committee as well, you informed me that you also had another place of residence. Can you just give that address? MR MHLONGO In Mofolo South, 457 Ndaba Street. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Is it correct that you resided at both addresses at intervals? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN ... (tape ends) ... Chairman or can you give us names of other leaders of the IFP structures in the hostel? MR MHLONGO People who would be leaders were Mkhize. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN What - was he a leader of the IFP? MR MHLONGO Yes, he was the one leader in charge of the entire Johannesburg area. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Who was the Chairman of your Branch? MR MHLONGO The Chairman of the Branch was one man who lived there in the hostel by the name of Mr Ntuli. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And the Secretary of your Branch, who was that? MR MHLONGO Mazibuko. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Is that the same Mazibuko who you claim gave you a certain order? MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, when we are talking about Branch, Ms Mhlongo, are we talking about the Jeppe Hostel Branch or the Youth Brigade Branch within that, what are we talking about? Mr Mazibuko was the Secretary of what Branch of the IFP? MR MHLONGO Youth Brigade, Jeppe Branch, he was the Secretary for that particular Branch. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Good. Now, I just want you to in general tell the Committee what was the political climate as you experienced it during 1993 and with specific reference between the situation, or the conflict between the ANC and IFP. MR MHLONGO What used to happen, people were being killed. When we attend or go for rallies or meetings, we would encounter some disturbance from the opposing organisation, the ANC that is. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You describe certain events that took place on trains, please enlighten the Committee as to that? INTERPRETER The applicant cannot hear. CHAIRPERSON If you could just repeat your question Ms van der Westhuizen, let's see if he can hear now. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you. Mr Mhlongo, you also described certain incidents that happened on the trains between ANC and IFP supporters, will you just briefly tell the Committee about that as well? MR MHLONGO It would happen that on our way to work, there will be stay-aways that will be launched and there will be toy-toying in the trains and people would be thrown out of the windows from the trains, whilst the train is in motion, and those things would happen in our full view. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Did you believe that those people were attacked by the ANC? MR MHLONGO That I knew for a fact, because they would explain before they undergo, or do something. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You referred to stay-aways and you also described to me certain ... JUDGE DE JAGER Ms van der Westhuizen, I think we could accept, we had evidence before about it, that there was a conflict situation between the ANC and the IFP at that time. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you honourable Chairperson, I will therefore not waste unnecessary time on that. Maybe just one point on that issue, is it correct that you also personally was travelling in minibuses, were attacked by ANC members? MR MHLONGO Yes, that is true. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And during that period, it is the half of 1993, that was the build-up to the elections the following year and because of that, there was also extra tension between the two political parties, can you confirm that? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, I want to ask you about specific meetings that prior to this incident, this fatal day of the 9th of July, there was - you informed me there was a meeting at the Jeppe Hostel. Will you please inform the Committee what happened? MR MHLONGO There was going to be a conference, an Inkatha Conference in Ulundi, then we had a meeting prior to the conference in the Jeppe Hostel. We were also organising the logistics around getting things like transport and so on. The followers of the IFP got highly upset because of the fact that things were not getting in order and in place in so far as it relates to the transport arrangements and we had to excuse ourselves from the big meeting to have our own caucus on the side. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, you as part of the leadership, were you confronted by the hostel people about the transport arrangements? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And did you make certain promises to the people about the transport? MR MHLONGO Yes, we did promise them. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN After that meeting, did you have another meeting and can you describe where and how that happened and who do you remember that was present there? MR MHLONGO Mr Mazibuko was present and others, Mkhize as well as Lamula from (indistinct) were present. JUDGE DE JAGER Was that sort of a Committee meeting, a leadership meeting? MR MHLONGO It was a leadership meeting, or people who held positions. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN What did you discuss during that meeting? MR MHLONGO We discussed ways in getting transport for the people. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN What was decided, how were you going to go about that? MR MHLONGO Well, Mazibuko had an opinion that we could attempt to hijack a car, that will help a great deal. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You say ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry before you proceed Ms van der Westhuizen, what was your responsibility, how many people were you expected to transport from the Jeppe Hostel to Ulundi for this meeting, what sort of numbers are we looking at? MR MHLONGO We thought if we could gain about three cars, that would be quite ideal. CHAIRPERSON When you talk about a car, are you talking about a vehicle or a minibus. MR MHLONGO I am referring to kombis. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Sorry Ms van der Westhuizen. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you honourable Chairperson. Mr Mhlongo, you say that Mr Mazibuko suggested this way of getting vehicles. Were you specifically instructed to get a vehicle and was it only you alone or were the other people also instructed to do the same, meaning hijacking a minibus? MR MHLONGO We were two, and we were given the order separately. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, if you say separately, it was at the same meeting, is that correct? MR MHLONGO It was at the same meeting, but we were going to take our own respective routes afterwards. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Did you have your own firearm at that stage? MR MHLONGO No, the firearms that we would have used, belonged to Mr Mazibuko. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Can you just on this point also, tell the Committee what you know about firearms that were used or that were stored in the hostel, whatever you know about that? MR MHLONGO Well, what I know about that firearms was that Mkhize and others would collect money from the hostel dwellers to purchase more firearms in an attempt to defend or protect ourselves. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed, hostel dwellers made contributions to buy firearms. Was it ever contemplated that they make contributions to hire a kombi? MR MHLONGO Well, we did not have sufficient funds even then, we were just under pressure and we did not have money. CHAIRPERSON So it wasn't considered? MR MHLONGO No, as leaders, we will not have even considered that, because we had limited time at our disposal. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Can I just maybe clarify one point or just get it across to the Committee, the bigger meeting that took place, let's call it the general meeting, the people at that meeting, how - what was the attitudes like? Were they angry at you, was it just a normal meeting, how did the people respond to the shortage of transport? MR MHLONGO There was no way we could even present ourselves in front of them, but because we were so brave as the leaders, we did try to go and stand in front of them, but they were highly infuriated, those people that is. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN After ... JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, he told us "I and somebody", but he didn't mention the name "were separately given orders". Who was the other person? MR MHLONGO This other person was a hostel dweller as well, he also lived there, by the name of Buthelezi. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you. ADV SIGODI Sorry, just on that aspect, what position did this Buthelezi hold? Did he have any leadership position? MR MHLONGO No, he was just one of the men there, he was not hold any specific position as such. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you. I want to take you - now, can I just confirm, were you then handed a firearm by Mr Mazibuko? MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON What sort of firearm was it? Was it an AK47, a pistol, a revolver, what sort of firearm? MR MHLONGO A firearm, 38. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Just to get a bit of a time sequence right here, when were the buses to leave to Ulundi, can you remember on which day were they to depart? MR MHLONGO The day was supposed to be Friday, around ten, passed ten to eleven o'clock. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And this meeting where you discussed about the transport problems, can you estimate how long before the Friday did this meeting take place? MR MHLONGO Approximately it could have been two days prior to the day of departure. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, after you left that meeting and I assume that you also took the firearm with you, when did you go out and attempt this hijacking? MR MHLONGO I left the meeting and I went to the location where I was residing, to wake up the following day and go to work. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN On which day did you actually continue to commit this hijacking? MR MHLONGO It was on a Friday. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now will you please describe the events on that day, let's start, what time did you leave your work? MR MHLONGO I left at two o'clock in the afternoon, I went to the residential area in the location. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN What did you go and do in the location? MR MHLONGO I was going to fetch my firearm that I had left in my room. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Yes, and after you got your firearm, where did you go to? MR MHLONGO I went to get my friend by the name of Ndlandla Zondi. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Yes, and where did you two go to? MR MHLONGO Well, we boarded a taxi and went to Bara and connected, and took the other taxi that we had already identified as a target, or our target. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now ... CHAIRPERSON So you went with Zondi, you went by taxi to Bara, is that Baragwanath? MR MHLONGO Baragwanath Hospital, yes. CHAIRPERSON Because you say there was another taxi that you had already identified? Is that right, did I hear you right, I just want you to confirm what you said? MR MHLONGO After alighting from the first taxi, we looked around as which taxi we will possibly hijack and that is the one we went into. CHAIRPERSON Okay, so you identified it then, when you got there? Thank you, I had the impression it was previously, before going there identified, thank you. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you honourable Chairperson. Just to ask about Mr Zondi, have you seen him since that day and do you know his whereabouts at this stage? MR MHLONGO Well ever since my arrest, I haven't seen him to date. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN What happened after you and Mr Zondi boarded this specific taxi? MR MHLONGO We joined the other passengers in the taxi, the taxi took off. Inside the taxi, I could hear that the passengers were discussing and talking about the situation in the area, the conflicts, but we were quiet, we kept very quiet inside, listening to the other passengers discussing and talking until they all got off the taxi and we were the only ones remaining. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, where was this taxi going to Mr Mhlongo, when the other people got off, where was it that they got off the taxi? MR MHLONGO Well, how the taxi operate is that they will, it will get the passengers and once it is filled, it will drive all the way to its destination. Now in this case, the destination was Umdini. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Umdini? Is that U-m-d-i-n-i? MR MHLONGO Yes. It was going to Umdini terminus. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Mhlongo, you must forgive me, I am not familiar with these places. I know where Baragwanath is and I know where Jeppe is, but I do not know where Umdini is. Where is Umdini in relation to either of those places? MR MHLONGO Well, that is the last part, the southern most part of Soweto, Umdini. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Before you continue Mr Mhlongo, you say that you overheard the people having discussions in the taxi and talking about the situation. What did they talk about, can you remember? MR MHLONGO Although I don't quite remember well as to the details, but they were talking about the killing of people that was rife at the time between the two organisations, Inkatha and the ANC as it was nearing the election. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Was there anything said about the hostels? MR MHLONGO They disliked the people that were in the hostel. They were also alluding to the fact that the hostel dwellers should be, should vacate the location and leave the area. In other words the hostel should cease to exist. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, I notice that it is one o'clock. I do not know whether you would like to adjourn. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we can take the lunch adjournment now, thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen, just before lunch, Mr Mhlongo was testifying, saying that they were in the taxi, and he described the conversation that he heard from his fellow passengers. HOFFMAN BOY MHLONGO (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN (cont) Thank you very much Chairperson. Mr Mhlongo, now after all the people got off from the taxi, or let me call them passengers, who remained in the taxi? MR MHLONGO The two of us remained, as well as the driver. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And what happened, did you speak to him, what happened? Or did he speak to you, what happened after that? MR MHLONGO He enquired as to where we were going to get off. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Yes? MR MHLONGO We responded, saying that we were going to get off near Hladi. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Anything else that was said? MR MHLONGO Thereafter I questioned him on the discussion that had taken place in the taxi as to what political organisation he was affiliated to. The then revealed that he was in the ANC camp. I then pointed my firearm at him. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Before you continue, can I just ask you, did you ask him his name and what can you remember he said to you? MR MHLONGO If I recall, I think he said he was Mr Moloyi. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN But you know today that the man that you killed surname was Ngwenya, is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is what I heard in court. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, you say that after he told you that he was from the ANC, you produced your firearm, can you just explain to the Committee, just in your own words, what happened then? MR MHLONGO After producing the firearm, I moved him from the steering wheel and instructed Ndlandla to point his firearm at him, so that I could drive the vehicle. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Where did you drive to? MR MHLONGO We drove to Jeppe Hostel. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And did you reach Jeppe Hostel? MR MHLONGO Yes, we did. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN What happened at the hostel? MR MHLONGO I left him with Ndlandla in the vehicle, to report that we had acquired a vehicle. On my return, I discovered that there were a lot of people surrounding the vehicle, and at that point there was a discussion held, that because the man had seen us, he could easily identify us, that is why it was better to kill him. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN The people around the vehicle at that stage, in the Jeppe Hostel, what were their mood like? Can you describe that? MR MHLONGO They were very happy that a vehicle had been acquired. CHAIRPERSON Sorry before you proceed, sorry Ms van der Westhuizen, why did you take him to Jeppe Hostel where you stay? Why didn't you when you pointed the gun at him, when you got into the driver's seat, why didn't you just leave him outside the vehicle and drive off? Why take him to the very place you come from? MR MHLONGO The reason why we did not leave him, was because we were not certain whether he had been telling us the truth and because of the reason that there were hostel residents who had families who drove taxi's, they could perhaps identify him if he was really an ANC person. CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Westhuizen? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Chairperson. Now what did you decide, what happened after that? MR MHLONGO Thereafter when it had been decided that he had to be killed, we drove off. We proceeded towards Denver and came up on an open veld, where we off-loaded him and where he was also killed. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Before you proceed, if you say "we took him to Denver Hostel", who was with you? MR MHLONGO I was with Ndlandla and some other members who were also driving with us in the car. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN What happened in the open area that you described at Denver? MR MHLONGO I parked the vehicle, Ndlandla alighted the vehicle with him, at the time, he was still pointing the firearm at the man. That is where he shot at him. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that Zondi shot him? MR MHLONGO Yes. He fired the first shot. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And you yourself, did you fire any shots at the deceased? MR MHLONGO No, I did not. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And what happened thereafter, what did you do? JUDGE DE JAGER Ndlandla fired the first shot, then you proceeded and said you didn't fire any shots. Were there a second shot fired, and a third shot, how many shots, and who fired the other shots? MR MHLONGO He was shot at three times. CHAIRPERSON All by Zondi, Mr Zondi? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, after that, what did you do? MR MHLONGO Thereafter I returned to Jeppe, to report that we had completed the task. That was where Mr Mazibuko informed me that we had to go and collect firearms, using the vehicle. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Did Mr Mazibuko tell you where to go to fetch firearms? MR MHLONGO He informed me that it was at Jabulani. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And where did you go from the Jeppe Hostel? MR MHLONGO We first went to Jabulani township, to a friend of mine, whom I promised to give a lift, that is Jabulani Majola. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Just on that aspect, this Jabulani Majola, is it correct that he worked together with you at Braamfontein Hotel? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You say that you promised him a lift. Where was he going to? MR MHLONGO There was a religious ceremony that was to held at his home at Nqutu. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And you say this Jabulani, he stayed in the area Jabulani, is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN What happened there, when you went to his house, was he there, did you speak to him? MR MHLONGO We parked the vehicle and sounded a horn and a vehicle approached. I think it was a Skyline. That is when we encountered problems and we therefore could not find out whether Jabulani was home, because after that, we were involved in a chase with this car. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You say this car was chasing you, is it correct that you then made an accident and fled from the scene? CHAIRPERSON Just carry on, sorry. MR MHLONGO Yes, I did get involved in an accident where I hit the pavement upon which time we got off the vehicle and fled. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, can you tell this Committee why do you regard this whole incident as being politically motivated, or one with a political objective? MR MHLONGO Please repeat? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You yourself, why do you regard this whole incident and the events that happened as one with a political objective, or trying to reach a political objective? MR MHLONGO Because whatever I did, was under the banner of the organisation. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Mr Nyauza, do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant? MR NYAUZA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, how many of you were in this motor vehicle when you were involved in the accident after the chase? MR MHLONGO There were three of us, and Jabulani would have been the fourth one. CHAIRPERSON Was that yourself, was Zondi still there? MR MHLONGO Yes, he was still present. CHAIRPERSON Zondi and who else? MR MHLONGO Just myself, Mr Zondi, Mazibuko as well as somebody who had come with Mr Mazibuko. CHAIRPERSON So that means there were four of you? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA You have been given instructions, according to your testimony you had been given instructions by Mr Mazibuko to go and collect arms at Jabulani, is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA And he accompanied you, he gave the instructions and he decided to be part of the people that he had instructed, is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is not the same Mr Mazibuko who was the Secretary. It is just a similar surname. MR NYAUZA From - let's suppose you had gone to collect the firearms, what were you to do after you had collected? MR MHLONGO We would have taken them to Ulundi, to safeguard against whatever problems we may encounter along the way. MR NYAUZA Where would you have driven from? Would you have driven from Jabulani to Ulundi or what was your next stop after the collection of the firearms? MR MHLONGO From Jabulani we would have gone via Mofolo to pick up my clothes and then we would then drive to Jeppe to pick up the other members. MR NYAUZA In your testimony you told this Commission that at some stage you addressed a meeting of very agitated members who were disappointed that you could not arrange transport for them, is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA And in your testimony as well, you testified that at least three kombis would have been appropriate for these members, is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA How many kombis did you get at the end of the day? MR MHLONGO We managed to get two. MR NYAUZA You got two? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA And you were still short of one, is that correct to please the members? MR MHLONGO Yes, that is why ultimately we were not able to reach the place. MR NYAUZA No, we haven't arrived there yet. You decide to pick Jabulani up at Jabulani, when he was not part and parcel of the people who were agitated. What about the feelings of the other people? CHAIRPERSON You see, I think what Mr Nyauza is getting at Mr Mhlongo is, you said you needed three vehicles to satisfy the dwellers of Jeppe Hostel, you only got two, so in other words you won't be able to satisfy all the people who required transport, yet, despite that, you pick up your friend, Jabulani who has got nothing to do with the hostel. Why take up space when you are short of space to start off by somebody who is not from the hostel, that is what Mr Nyauza is asking you? MR MHLONGO He had requested me as a friend who was also my co-worker, to give him a lift. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, we are in a political scenario. You are amongst the leaders of your followers in the IFP, and despite the fact that your followers are not happy with the fact that you and the other leaders could not get them transport, you leave others behind. Explain that, it beats me, I cannot understand. MR MHLONGO I was not going to leave them, but because I had promised him, I went via his place to pick him up, but we were still going to go to the hostel to pick up the rest. MR NYAUZA But you wanted three kombis, is that correct, to pick everybody up? MR MHLONGO Yes, that was our opinion at the time. JUDGE DE JAGER Would you take this friend of yours to Ulundi or where did you want to, where did he want to get off? CHAIRPERSON He wanted to get off at Nkandla. Whereabout is Nkandla in relation to Ulundi? MR MHLONGO I was going to leave him at Nqutu and then he would have to board taxi's to Nkandla and I would go on a different route to Ulundi. CHAIRPERSON I think, is Nkandla near, sort of down to Pietermaritzburg, that way? MR MHLONGO No. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, you have testified before this hearing that you were a member of the IFP since the age of 9, according to your testimony. When did you start becoming a card-carrying member of the IFP? MR MHLONGO Previously the system of membership cards was not in use, but when we arrived in Johannesburg, that is when we received membership cards which had identity photo's. That is when I came to Johannesburg for employment purposes. MR NYAUZA When did you arrive in Johannesburg? MR MHLONGO In 1980. MR NYAUZA In 1980? MR MHLONGO Yes. MR NYAUZA And you were presented with this card in Johannesburg, is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA It had a number? MR MHLONGO Yes, it did. MR NYAUZA You carried this card since 1980 to 1993, is that correct, when you were arrested? MR MHLONGO They system changed in 1993 and the new system was no longer plastic, but paper cards. MR NYAUZA The system changed, did the numbers change? MR MHLONGO No, it did not. I just renewed my membership. MR NYAUZA So the number remained the same for 13 full years, is that correct? MR MHLONGO Yes, I am certain of that. MR NYAUZA And in your application for amnesty you were asked to supply the Amnesty Committee with your number, which you failed to do. Didn't you know your number by heart, Mr Mhlongo, you had it for 13 full years? MR MHLONGO Yes, even up to this day, I do not even know if off my head. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, how far did you go with your schooling, we know you went to school at Nkandla, but it was not taken further as to how far you went with schooling. How far did you go in schooling, Mr Mhlongo? MR MHLONGO Standard 7. MR NYAUZA Standard 7? MR MHLONGO Yes. MR NYAUZA What was your criteria in the IFP, of appointing office bearers? MR MHLONGO It was your commitment in the organisation. MR NYAUZA You were staying at - at some stage you mentioned somebody by the name of Mr Masimola and you stated that he was from some other IFP Branch, is that correct? MR MHLONGO Masimola? MR NYAUZA Yes, there is some name that you mentioned that went nearer to that, you said "... we subsequently held a Committee meeting ..." after you had made promises about transport and you mentioned some members, some people were at this particular meeting, you said Mazibuko was amongst them and there is a guy, apparently you said Mr Masimola who was from the Soweto Branch. Who else was at that meeting, after you had made promises that you would go and get transport? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Mr Chairperson, may I just assist, it is actually Ndula Lamula from Morafe Hostel, just to assist my learned colleague, Lamula, Morafe Hostel. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. MR NYAUZA Did you have a Branch at Morafe, or did the people in Denver have jurisdiction, did they control people living in Morafe? MR MHLONGO We were still talking about somebody who had resided in Morafe prior to moving to Denver and the person was a leader in the Soweto area. MR NYAUZA So this Lamula was a leader in Morafe, is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA What did he have to do with the meeting that effected people in Jeppe? MR MHLONGO For the reason that he was also a leader who would come to resolve a problem that we encountered. MR NYAUZA Where is Mr Mazibuko, the one that gave you orders? When was the last time that you saw him? MR MHLONGO I last saw him before my arrest and he was residing at Jeppe. MR NYAUZA After you were arrested, he never pitched up? MR MHLONGO He last came when I was still on trial. MR NYAUZA And when you were convicted, he never pitched up? MR MHLONGO No. MR NYAUZA And you were doing this whole thing in the name of the organisation, is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA Isn't it sinister that you did something in the name of the organisation, you are convicted, you don't get any moral support from the people that you are trying to tell this Commission, that you were helping, isn't it funny? MR MHLONGO It did surprise me, even today, I am still shocked as to why. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, the house that you went to in Jabulani, isn't that a Priest's house? MR MHLONGO It belongs to Jabulani's father. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, the question was isn't it a Priest's house? Do you know whether Jabulani's father is a Priest? MR MHLONGO He is a Priest. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, why didn't you make mention of affiliation to the IFP during your trial? MR MHLONGO Please repeat that. MR NYAUZA Why didn't you make known to the Presiding Officers at your trial, that you were an IFP member? CHAIRPERSON And that the whole hijacking was committed under instruction? MR NYAUZA I am indebted to yourself, Chairperson. MR MHLONGO I did not tell the truth in court. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyauza wants to know why. MR MHLONGO Because I was denying the offence. I was fearing for my life as well, that I may be killed if I mentioned that these are the people that gave me the order. MR NYAUZA Who was going to kill you? MR MHLONGO People like Mazibuko from the hostel. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, we are not kids here, you are arrested, you are incarcerated, you tell the police officer that "guys, I am an IFP member, I plead guilty to this thing because I did it in the name of the struggle, our struggle against the ANC" as it more fully appears in your papers here. Naturally you would be sentenced. When are you going to be killed? JUDGE DE JAGER I think it is rather common cause that at that stage, on both sides of the political spectrum, people denied that they were involved in politics, because they thought it may have repercussions on the sentence, etc. MR NYAUZA I would withdraw that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, also from our experience in these matters, Mr Nyauza, it is very common for us to hear that people in courts lied because they denied guilt and they were in the first instance endeavouring to get themselves free, so they told a completely different story. MR NYAUZA That is what I was leading at, Your Honour. Mr Mhlongo, what is going to make us believe you today, that you are not lying? MR MHLONGO It is because of the reason that I realise that I should admit what I did and tell the truth. MR NYAUZA What is it that you did? You didn't kill the deceased, what are you admitting to? MR MHLONGO It was to hijack the car, take the deceased to the hostel and lead ultimately to his death, because if I had not hijacked him, he would not have been killed. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, who is this Agrip Ncuncu, I never heard you saying anything about him in your evidence-in-chief? MR MHLONGO He is my cousin. MR NYAUZA I would wish to refer this Commission to pages 9 and 10 of the record, number 2 in his affidavit. Mr Mhlongo, you say in your affidavit that "... Mr Agrip Ncuncu is my cousin, he is my witness who can testify for my behalf, he knows what happened and saw everything." What is it that he knows and what is it that he saw? You never said anything about this in your evidence-in-chief? MR MHLONGO He was one person I used to visit at the hostel, and when I left the hostel, he took up my room, so whenever I went to the hostel, I would go to his room. So he knew everything. MR NYAUZA What is it that he saw? MR MHLONGO He saw the car as I arrived at the hostel. MR NYAUZA You have testified here today that you arrived at Bara, Baragwanath Hospital taxi rank, you identified the motor vehicle that you wanted. How did you identify the motor vehicle that you wanted because my experience tells me that cars queue there to ferry passengers to different destinations? CHAIRPERSON Is it the usual taxi ranks where there is taut and when the first one is filled, the next one comes into the front, fill, the next one? MR NYAUZA Yes, Your Honour, it is like that. CHAIRPERSON You cannot pick and choose which one you want? MR NYAUZA The first one - you cannot. MR MHLONGO We identified a car that looked a bit new, so when the queue was moving up, we also joined it, so that we could get onto that car. MR NYAUZA Had the driver of the motor vehicle according to your testimony, not have been an ANC member, just an ordinary member, would you have killed him? MR MHLONGO No, we would not have killed him. Our intention was not to kill. ADV SIGODI Sorry Mr Nyauza, on that aspect, but didn't you say in your evidence, that you killed him because he had identified you? You took him to that place and you killed him because he had seen you and would be able to identify you? Wasn't that the reason he was killed? MR MHLONGO I did say so, because he had been in our company for quite a while. ADV SIGODI In other words he would have been killed even if he was not an ANC member? Is that not the case? MR MHLONGO Yes, but I cannot be absolutely sure about that, because it is not that we had problems with every organisation. The only people we had problems with, was the ANC. ADV SIGODI Yes, but the point I am trying to understand is that you said yourself that he was killed because he had identified you? MR MHLONGO Yes, I did say so. CHAIRPERSON Just before you proceed Mr Nyauza, central to what you said to us today, particularly relating to the actual killing of Mr Ngwenya is Mr Zondi. I mean he is the man who went with you, he was with you the whole time, he is the person who actually pulled the trigger and executed the victim. Why did you not make any mention of Mr Zondi in your application form? MR MHLONGO It is because I did not know his whereabouts, where I could get hold of him. CHAIRPERSON Is that the only reason why you did not mention him? MR MHLONGO Yes, that is correct. MR NYAUZA I want us to go back to the IFP membership number. How many numbers does it comprise of? CHAIRPERSON You mean the IFP ... MR NYAUZA IFP membership number. How many digits does it comprise of? MR MHLONGO It is something that I did not really notice. I do not want to assume, so I cannot respond. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, I get the feeling that you are evading my questions. Is that so? MR MHLONGO No, that is not so. MR NYAUZA you are quite aware that you've got to tell the truth here so that you can get amnesty, is that so? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, you lived for the IFP, you killed for the IFP, but you didn't give a thing for your membership number, which I believe it is extremely important to you, because you are carrying the IFP banner? CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Nyauza, do you have any idea how long the digits are because you know, if you had to ask me what my ID number was, I might battle to tell you and I have had it for longer than 13 years. If it was a three or four number, digits, you know, then of course it is easier to remember, but if it is one of these ... MR NYAUZA That is what I wanted to find out from him because he can approximate and say about six or seven. CHAIRPERSON Yes, yes. MR NYAUZA But he doesn't even respond. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but do you know? MR NYAUZA No, I don't. I don't, Your Honour. JUDGE DE JAGER Well, I can remember my ID number, but I cannot remember any political party's number and I have been a member of quite a few. MR NYAUZA I think the reason is that you have been a member of quite a few, that is why you cannot remember. JUDGE DE JAGER That may be so, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Nyauza, you can continue. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, you know your home telephone numbers off my heart, is that so? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA And you don't know your IFP numbers off by heart? MR MHLONGO Such numbers are not used regularly. CHAIRPERSON I think it is quite clear, he hasn't got a clue about the IFP number, he doesn't know. I think it is quite clear that he doesn't have a clue about it, he doesn't know whether it is four digits, six digits, a whole number of digits. I think it is quite clear that he doesn't know it is. MR NYAUZA No, the point taken. Mr Mhlongo, let's go back to the question why the driver was killed. Why specifically was he killed? MR MHLONGO We had discovered that he was a member of the ANC as well as for the fact that he had identified us, so he could recognise us and get us arrested. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, Jabulani, your friend, you have been so his place many times, is that correct? MR MHLONGO I did not usually go to his home, but I worked with him. CHAIRPERSON But you have been there before? Have you been to his place before that occasion when the chase happened? MR MHLONGO Well, if we knock off work at night, we would normally drop employees off at home, so that is how I knew where he stayed. MR NYAUZA So you agree that you had been to his place many times, is that correct? MR MHLONGO Yes, I do. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, would you visit him even on weekends? Sometimes? MR MHLONGO I was working on weekends. MR NYAUZA You were working every weekend of the year? MR MHLONGO It did not happen that we would both be off at the same time, because if I was off during weekends, he would have been off during the week, so he would be working during the weekend. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlongo, the question was very simple. The question was did you visit him at his home over the weekend, then you answer saying "well, I worked the weekends". That is not an answer, the answer is either yes or no. Did you visit him at his home over weekends, anytime, ever over a weekend? MR MHLONGO No, I did not. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, what time was it when you went to Jabulani's place at Jabulani? MR MHLONGO Around ten o'clock. MR NYAUZA And you knew the route quite well because you were used to dropping him off at Jabulani, is that correct? MR MHLONGO Yes, I did know the route. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, you were working at Braamfontein, is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MR NYAUZA And you have told this Commission that when you knocked off late, you dropped Mhlongo at his residence? CHAIRPERSON Jabulani. MR NYAUZA Jabulani - excuse me. You dropped Jabulani at his place. Whose car were you using? MR MHLONGO It was cars that had been hired by the company. MR NYAUZA And you would be in the same motor vehicle as Jabulani, but you would not have the same weekends off, how funny? Is there any comment on that? MR MHLONGO That is so. We worked, doing duty from 3 to 11 pm, but we worked in different departments, because the hotel itself had many departments. MR NYAUZA But when you knocked off, you used the same transport, irrespective of the different departments? That is your testimony? MR MHLONGO That is so. MR NYAUZA But you want to tell this commission that you would not have the same weekends off? Mr Mhlongo, you want amnesty here? MR MHLONGO The fact is we did not get our leaves on the same days. He would be off on a certain day and I would be off on another, we worked in different departments. MR NYAUZA Mr Mhlongo, I put it to you, I don't know how to - my criminal, court background ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, no, that is the way to go. MR NYAUZA I put it to you Mr Mhlongo, that you had been to Jabulani's place of residence on some weekends, what is your comment on that? MR MHLONGO I never went to visit him during weekends. MR NYAUZA I further put it to you Mr Mhlongo, that during your visits to this place, to Jabulani's place, you once, you spotted this kombi being washed at the next door of Jabulani, what is your comment on that? MR MHLONGO I never saw it before. CHAIRPERSON When you say the kombi, the self-same one that was hijacked? MR NYAUZA The one that he hijacked. And Mr Mhlongo, I further put it to you that you killed the driver of this kombi because he knew you well, he saw you on weekends when you were there? Not that he was an ANC member, but because he could tell that you hijacked the motor vehicle from him? MR MHLONGO I cannot comment on that, because if he saw me or if he knew me, I cannot tell because I did not know him. MR NYAUZA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyauza. Do you have any questions you would like to put, Ms Lockhat? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT I just have one question Chairperson. Earlier you said that you didn't mention Mr Zondi's name in your application form and your further submissions was because you didn't know his address, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON He didn't know his whereabouts. MS LOCKHAT His whereabouts? MR MHLONGO That is correct. MS LOCKHAT But in your amnesty application form, your initial one, on page 3, you mention Mr Mazibuko as the person who had instructed you and then on page 6 you state that - the Commission asked you a question as to Mr Mazibuko's whereabouts and your response was on page 6, paragraph 2 that you do not know the address of Mr Mazibuko. You didn't know his whereabouts. Can you comment on that? MR MHLONGO I do not know his address up to this day, but I know that he resides at Jeppe Hostel, although I am not aware of the room number. MS LOCKHAT So you put his name in the application form although you didn't know his whereabouts, but you excluded Mr Zondi's? CHAIRPERSON I think the follow up is, if, if - take for example you didn't know Mr Mazibuko's address or where he lived, would you also have not mentioned him in your application? MR MHLONGO I mentioned him because my cousin resides with him at Jeppe Hostel. JUDGE DE JAGER On page 9 he says "... Mr Mazibuko can be found at Jeppe Men's Hostel, room number 8." MS LOCKHAT That was later, yes. But I am talking about his initial application form, when he just mentions about the instructions and so forth, and then he gives us further information as to the questions we asked as to who was involved in the incident and so forth, and he does not mention Mr Zondi. He mentions Mr Mazibuko, but he says - well he still does not know, but he gives us another person we can contact to get the address. I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Westhuizen, do you have any re-examination? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN None, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager, do you have any questions you would like to ask? JUDGE DE JAGER No. CHAIRPERSON Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you would like to ask? ADV SIGODI A few. Mr Mhlongo, as you were the Assistant-Secretary of the Youth Brigade at the hostel, do you know roughly how many people resided in the hostel? MR MHLONGO You are referring to IFP members. ADV SIGODI The Jeppe Hostel? Yes. All the people, or the IFP members who resided at Jeppe Hostel, the IFP? MR MHLONGO The hostel was occupied by only IFP members because the Xhosas had been driven out. CHAIRPERSON The question was how many people stayed in the hostel then, approximately, a ball-park figure. MR MHLONGO I think there may be 300, 400. ADV SIGODI Thank you. And now for this conference that was going to be held in Ulundi, what provisions did the IFP make for its people at Jeppe Hostel, to transport them? MR MHLONGO We had arranged to collect funds, contributions, so that we could get transport, but for the reason that many of the hostel residents were unemployed ... CHAIRPERSON Did the IFP take it upon itself, when I say the IFP, I am going beyond the Jeppe Hostel, take it upon itself to provide buses or whatever for people not necessarily only at Jeppe, but for people in the Reef, on the Reef, in the Rand area to say "look buses, we've got this big conference, IFP people are encouraged to go. If you want to go, go to such and such a place, there will be buses you can hop on", was there anything like that that you know of, to get people to the conference? MR MHLONGO That is not the practice of the IFP, we normally pay for our trips. ADV SIGODI In my experience with the other matters, even if the people paid, but the IFP would provide buses for people to go and attend conferences as big as the ones that are usually held at Ulundi. You mentioned that you sought to get three kombis for this conference. How many, I man how much transport was there besides the three kombis that you sought to get, was available? MR MHLONGO There were buses that were going to ferry amabutu. ADV SIGODI All right, how many buses were available? MR MHLONGO Five. ADV SIGODI Do you know roughly how many people a bus can take, if you had five buses? MR MHLONGO I am not certain, we just get into the bus, as long as there is space. CHAIRPERSON These, are these, talking about the normal single storey bus, the Putco type bus? Those are normally, if it is that sort of us, they are normally 65 or 70 seaters. ADV SIGODI 70 people? MR MHLONGO Yes, I am referring to such buses. ADV SIGODI So if you had about five buses, at least about 300 to 400 people would be able to get into those buses? What do you say to that? MR MHLONGO These buses were not only for the Jeppe Hostel, but we were going to carry members from other hostels as well, such as George Koch. ADV SIGODI Okay, and then for the Jeppe people, how many buses were available? MR MHLONGO I am not sure as to how many were going to be transported from Jeppe. That is why we felt that the transport was not sufficient. ADV SIGODI Yes, but I mean as a member of the leadership group that was concerned with transport, how can you not know how many buses are available in order to be able to determine how many people will not be able to get transport? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think what Adv Sigodi wants to know is how did you arrive at the conclusion that you needed three extra kombis, why not one, why not 15? MR MHLONGO It was clear that the people who were not going to get spaces in the bus, were not that many. ADV SIGODI They were not that many? How many were they? MR MHLONGO I should think about 50 or so. That is the youth. ADV SIGODI All right, and you say you managed to get two kombis. Where did the second kombi come from? MR MHLONGO I am not sure about the other kombi. But I only learnt of it on our return. ADV SIGODI On your return from Jabulani? MR MHLONGO After returning from Ulundi. But I was not able to go to Ulundi myself. ADV SIGODI You were not able to go to Ulundi, after all the trouble that you went to to try and get a kombi, to get people to Ulundi? MR MHLONGO Our kombi sustained an accident and it was already in the evening at that time. When we arrived the following day, in the morning, we realised that the other members had already left. ADV SIGODI So these people were not so angry, the people that you sought to get the kombi for? MR MHLONGO They were angry, but the thing is I did not get to see them again, because I was arrested shortly thereafter. ADV SIGODI Do you know how the second kombi was obtained, and who obtained it? MR MHLONGO It was obtained by Mr Ntuli who had also been given an instruction. ADV SIGODI Was it also hijacked? MR MHLONGO I would say so, because he had been issued with the same instruction. ADV SIGODI Do you know where Mr Ntuli is today? MR MHLONGO I do not know. ADV SIGODI Was he not arrested? MR MHLONGO No. ADV SIGODI Okay. The third point which I want to come to is, I still want to understand why you did not leave the driver in the township, why did you have to take him back to Jeppe? There were two of you, you could have easily pushed him out of the vehicle, why did you have to take him back to Jeppe? MR MHLONGO That was part of the instruction that we should return with the person. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying to us Mr Mhlongo, that you were ordered to go and hijack a vehicle and bring the victim, the owner back? Is that what you are saying? MR MHLONGO No. CHAIRPERSON So what did you mean then to say that you were told to bring him back? MR MHLONGO I am trying to explain that we had been told that if we encounter a person who is from the opposing camp that we were fighting, we should either kill him or return with him to the hostel. ADV SIGODI To do what? To do what with him at the hostel? Why was it necessary to bring him back to the hostel if you could have killed him immediately? MR MHLONGO I did this so that I could show the other persons at the hostel that I have conducted the task satisfactorily. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't the vehicle itself be evidence of that? MR MHLONGO I do not know, but they were satisfied when I arrived with the driver. ADV SIGODI What happened when you arrived at the hostel? Because in your evidence you mentioned that the people came around and they were very happy that you got the kombi and then you decided to take the driver away to kill him because he had identified you? Is that all that happened? MR MHLONGO That is what happened. ADV SIGODI Is that all that happened? MR MHLONGO I don't remember anything else. ADV SIGODI If I recall your evidence clearly, you mentioned that you brought him back because you were not sure that he was ANC. CHAIRPERSON Earlier you said you brought him back because you thought he may not have been telling you the truth when he said he was ANC, and you brought him back to the hostel in case somebody could identify him as being an IFP person? MR MHLONGO That is correct. ADV SIGODI What measures were taken to identify him there? Nowhere do you tell us that measures were taken to identify him as either IFP or ANC or some other political party? MR MHLONGO We gathered that from what he told us. ADV SIGODI Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you, none, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyauza? MR NYAUZA None Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAUZA CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT None, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mhlongo, that concludes your testimony. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Westhuizen? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Mr Chairperson, we do not intend calling any further witnesses, so that is the whole application for Mr Mhlongo. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nyauza? MR NYAUZA Mr Chairperson, we wish to call the uncle to the deceased who was residing with him at his address. He is seated next to me. Let me just check the name. CHAIRPERSON Can I have the full names please? MR MABIZELA Edward Mabizela. CHAIRPERSON Edward? MR MABIZELA Mabizela. CHAIRPERSON Mabizela? MR MABIZELA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyauza, he is going to give evidence? MR NYAUZA Yes, he is Your Honour. INTERPRETER I don't think the witness hears. CHAIRPERSON I think just check the volume there, Mr Nyauza, the ... Can you hear now, Mr Mabizela? MR MABIZELA Yes, I can. EDWARD MABIZELA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nyauza? EXAMINATION BY MR NYAUZA As it pleases you. Mr Mabizela, are you related to the deceased, Vuzi Ngwenya? MR MABIZELA He was my nephew and he resided at my home in Jabulani. MR NYAUZA How long did you reside with him? MR MABIZELA More than 16 years. He was born there, attended school there until he finished, completed his schooling. MR NYAUZA Do you know of his political alliance? MR MABIZELA He was not affiliated to any political organisation. MR NYAUZA You have told us that he grew up at your home. What is the address? MR MABIZELA 7070 Jabulani. MR NYAUZA Do you also come from Jabulani? MR MABIZELA Yes. That is correct. MR NYAUZA Do you know Jabulani Wilson Mzokono Majola? MR MABIZELA Yes, I know him, he is Pastor Majola's son. MR NYAUZA How far are they resident from your home? MR MABIZELA We are neighbours. MR NYAUZA Neighbours in what sense? You know, is he your next-door neighbour or is he the third street from where you are resident? MR MABIZELA There are a few houses between our homes. MR NYAUZA Are you in the same street? CHAIRPERSON Yes, if you could perhaps just get it more clear. MR NYAUZA Are you on the same street? MR MABIZELA No, there is one street separating us. MR NYAUZA For how long have you known the Majola's? MR MABIZELA For a long time, we grew up together. We have known them ever since. CHAIRPERSON If you are at the Majola's house, can you see your house? MR MABIZELA No. There are houses in between. MR NYAUZA Your nephew, how long had he been a taxi driver? MR MABIZELA I cannot remember, but it has been quite a while, he used to drive for a Mr Moloyi from Moletsane. MR NYAUZA Do you know of his girlfriend? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR NYAUZA Where was she residing? MR MABIZELA She resided next to the Majola home. MR NYAUZA And earlier on, when I consulted with you, you told me something about him washing the kombi at some place, what place was that? MR MABIZELA He had friends who resided in the same street as Mr Majola, so he would wash the car at his girlfriend's. MR NYAUZA You had known the Majola's and I would assume that you knew Jabulani. Do you perhaps know some of his friends? MR MABIZELA I knew the family well, as well as their son. I grew up with them and they were religious people. CHAIRPERSON The question was did you know some of Jabulani's, that is the son's, friends? MR MABIZELA No, I did not. MR NYAUZA Do you know the applicant before this hearing today? MR MABIZELA No, I do not. MR NYAUZA When was the first time you saw him? MR MABIZELA I am seeing him for the first time today. I just learnt that he is Mr Mhlongo today. MR NYAUZA What would you wish to tell this Commission today, are you happy with what has been said in this Commission today? MR MABIZELA It worries me because when I arrived I was questioning as to why this person is seeking amnesty. MR NYAUZA Yes, proceed? MR MABIZELA Because this act was intentional and there was no violence in Jabulani as he claims. We grew up in that area, there was no violence in Jabulani. Up to this day, there is no violence. We were even close to the Majola's. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Nyauza, you say that the deceased drove taxi's for Mr Moloyi. Do you know which route he operated on, what - whereabout did he drive taxi's? If you don't know, just say so. MR MABIZELA It was a route from Zola (indistinct), to town. CHAIRPERSON He drove from Zola to town? MR MABIZELA Yes, from Zola to town. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, could you tell me please where Zola is, and to town, do you mean Johannesburg? MR MABIZELA Zola is in Soweto. CHAIRPERSON And to town, do you mean Johannesburg, CBD? MR MABIZELA Yes, it is correct. MR NYAUZA Mr Mabizela, do you - you have told this hearing that you grew up with Jabulani and you know that he was not at all affiliated, sorry, let me rephrase that question, were you aware of his political affiliation? CHAIRPERSON This is not Jabulani, this is ... MR NYAUZA Jabulani? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, you are asking now not about the deceased, Ngwenya? MR NYAUZA No. CHAIRPERSON You are asking about Jabulani? MR NYAUZA Jabulani, do you know perhaps of Jabulani's political affiliation? MR MABIZELA I know Mzokona Majola Jabulani. MR NYAUZA No, his other name is Jabulani Wilson Mzokona Majola. Did you know of his political affiliation? MR MABIZELA No. They were not politically affiliated, they were very religious people. CHAIRPERSON But some religious people have political affiliations? The fact that they are religious people, does not mean that they don't have a political affiliation? Are you saying that you believe that he was - did not have any political affiliation because he was religious? MR MABIZELA Yes, I believe so. There would be religious ceremonies even at the Majola home. I never heard any political discussions, we just worshipped together. MR NYAUZA So Mr Mabizela, you have given testimony before this Commission today that the deceased had friends at the street where your nephew had a girlfriend and where Jabulani Wilson Mzokona Majola was resident, is that correct? MR MABIZELA That is correct. MR NYAUZA And you have stated that he would wash his kombi on that street? MR MABIZELA That is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Have you seen him washing the kombi? MR MABIZELA Many times. JUDGE DE JAGER Many times? At that place? At that house? MR MABIZELA Yes. MR NYAUZA And he would do this even on weekends when Jabulani was home, is that correct? MR MABIZELA Sometimes he would wash it during the day and even weekends when it wasn't so busy, he would wash the car. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Nyauza, this kombi belonged to Mr Moloyi? MR NYAUZA Yes, Your Honour. CHAIRPERSON And - sorry, I am going to ask your witness now. Did the deceased keep it full-time, he would go to sleep with it, you know, take it home, take it to work the next morning, or did he have to when he is not driving as a taxi driver, leave it at some sort of depot? MR MABIZELA He would take the vehicle to the Moloyi home if he was not working, but he used it most of the time. MR NYAUZA So he used this one kombi only? MR MABIZELA That is correct. MR NYAUZA And invariably Jabulani would have known, Jabulani Majola would have known that, would have known this kombi well because he used to wash it at the street, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Nyauza, this line of evidence, we know subject to what Ms van der Westhuizen is going to cross-examine, but on the evidence of this witness, he washed the car in the street quite often. We know from Mr Mhlongo's evidence that sometimes he went there when he dropped him off from work, but the witness says he has never seen Mhlongo before. He says he is seeing him for the first time today. So, I mean we know it is cleaned there, etc, this is sort of a question of argument now, I think. I don't know what more the witness can say. MR NYAUZA Yes, what else can you tell the Commission to sum up your evidence? MR MABIZELA What I can say is that the applicant is not telling the truth with regard to the political situation. As I said before, my nephew was not politically affiliated and moreover the Majola's were religious people. His intention was to rob that vehicle and when my nephew did not return on that day, he himself, told us that my nephew was somewhere around, so what I am trying to say is that the applicant is not telling the truth. His intention was to rob that vehicle, unfortunately he had to take a life too. MR NYAUZA Is that all Mr Mabizela? MR MABIZELA With regards to the political conflict, there were no problems in Jabulani, so he is not telling the truth. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mabizela, the witness wasn't, Mr Mhlongo wasn't necessarily confining, saying that there was political violence in Jabulani. He was saying it was around Jeppe Hostel and that sort of area. In any event, we hear what you are saying. MR NYAUZA Is that all? MR MABIZELA It was discovered later that he removed the person and the Majola's were not even aware what was happening, because there was this altercation going on. Even the people who were there at the Majola home, were surprised as to what that vehicle's business was at their home. What I am therefore saying is that Mr Mhlongo knows why he killed that person. It had nothing to do with politics, but it was just a criminal act and that was a kombi that they had already targeted before. Even Mr Nala informed me that he had heard from Mhlongo that Mhlongo already had a kombi to use and Mr Nala is also a Priest. MR NYAUZA Mr Mabizela, are you telling this Commission that there were women passengers in this kombi? MR MABIZELA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you see the kombi yourself, with your own eyes? MR MABIZELA People were chasing the kombi. CHAIRPERSON No the question was did you see it yourself, the kombi? MR MABIZELA They only came to my home to enquire about my nephew, as to where he was, because the kombi was seen on the street, and there were women inside the kombi. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mabizela, please just listen to my questions, it is a very easy question, it is a very simple question, did you see the kombi yourself, with your own eyes? MR MABIZELA I did see the kombi. CHAIRPERSON What did you see, who did you see, did you see anybody in the kombi with your own eyes? MR MABIZELA Mr Mhlongo. CHAIRPERSON And were there any other people that you saw in the kombi? MR MABIZELA The women. CHAIRPERSON How many women? MR MABIZELA It was not full, maybe four or so, because they had bags around with ... JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, did you see him that night in the kombi? MR MABIZELA I saw the driver. JUDGE DE JAGER And you recognised him? MR MABIZELA (Indistinct) said it was Mhlongo. JUDGE DE JAGER But you only saw him today for the first time? MR MABIZELA I recognised the voice. ADV SIGODI I am listening to the Zulu and the English interpretation. I think, can I clarify that with the Interpreter? MR NYAUZA Mr Mabizela, are you saying you heard people saying it is Mhlongo or you heard Mhlongo's voice? MR MABIZELA I heard people saying that it was Mhlongo. I did not know him. CHAIRPERSON I think it is common cause that he was in the vehicle, he said so himself. MR NYAUZA Yes. MR MABIZELA No, I did not know Mr Mhlongo. MR NYAUZA Mr Mabizela, let's not confuse issues here. Let's take issues step by step, don't rush, listen to questions, and respond correctly. Mr Moloyi's kombi is missing, he sends about two or three boys according to the testimony that prevailed at the trial. These two boys go out, did they come to pick you up first or they went to the kombi? Let's clarify issues? MR MABIZELA They first came to me, then we went towards the kombi. MR NYAUZA So you were one of the occupants of the Skyline that we are being told about in the records here? MR MABIZELA That is correct, I was. MR NYAUZA How many of you were in the Skyline? MR MABIZELA Moloyi's sons, two of them, plus Mr Moloyi himself. MR NYAUZA And you drove to Mzokona Majola's place in Jabulani? MR MABIZELA That is correct. MR NYAUZA Who got off the motor vehicle? MR MABIZELA Moloyi's sons. MR NYAUZA You remained in the motor vehicle, is that what you are telling this Commission? MR MABIZELA Yes, I remained in the vehicle. MR NYAUZA And who else? You told us there were four of you? MR MABIZELA They were with my nephew's friend, so I remained with him in the car. MR NYAUZA Mr Mabizela, you parked behind the kombi. Take this Commission through what happened, they got off, they did this, they did that, we did this, we did that, steady? MR MABIZELA Okay. As we arrived there, there was an altercation that ensued and that is when the kombi drove off, fled, and we chased at the kombi. MR NYAUZA Those boys came back. Who was the driver of your Skyline? MR MABIZELA Moloyi's son. MR NYAUZA And he had gotten out to speak to the driver, is that so? CHAIRPERSON I don't think we need all this sort of, but the fact is they chased it. MR NYAUZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we don't need ... MR NYAUZA And how many people were in the motor vehicle, in the kombi that you chased? MR MABIZELA There were four people, the kombi was idling at that time. It looked as if they were there to collect some people. MR NYAUZA Mr Mabizela, it is at night, it is about ten o'clock. You are telling this Commission that there were about four people in the kombi. Did it have dim windows, or was there a light that showed you that there were about four people in the kombi? How do you know that there were four people? MR MABIZELA The windows were not dimmed. MR NYAUZA And it is ten o'clock at night, it is not as simple as during the day. How did you see them, with the lights, were your headlights on, or whatever, give us, put us through that? MR MABIZELA When the kombi drove off, because it was supposed to go and collect some other people from the Majola home, and that was when there was this confusion that ensued. MR NYAUZA And then were these women inside the kombi or they were about to board the kombi? When this kombi was chased, did it have women passengers inside or not? MR MABIZELA They were inside. MR NYAUZA Mr Mabizela, testimony given by the applicant today is that there were four of them, males only, no females, what is your comment on that? MR MABIZELA I would dispute that. He had come to Jabulani to collect people who were supposed to go to church. MR NYAUZA So, how many males, you say there were four people, people are makes and females. What are you referring to when you say there were four people? Is he included or not? MR MABIZELA Others had just loaded their property onto the kombi and were not as yet inside the kombi. When the altercation ensued, that was when the kombi drove off and it was chased. MR NYAUZA Mr Mabizela, my question is simple and straight forward, you are saying there were four people, my question is was he the fourth person or not? MR MABIZELA No, I am not counting Mr Mhlongo. There was a driver. JUDGE DE JAGER He said it was about four people, so it could have been five, it could have been three. I don't know how we figure out whether he was the fourth if there was about four people there? MR MABIZELA It was also dark, but there were four women inside. MR NYAUZA So when you say there were about four people, you are referring only to the women? CHAIRPERSON We know that, he said Mr Mhlongo was in the kombi. Are you trying to get Mr Mhlongo out of the car? MR NYAUZA No, no Your Honour, no. These women were inside the car, you chased the car, it stopped and he ran away, left some items in the motor vehicle that he was subsequently identified about, is that so? MR MABIZELA That is correct. MR NYAUZA Is that your testimony then today? MR MABIZELA Yes. There were items that remained in the vehicle and the women also got off because they did not know anything, because at that time we were enquiring from them as to where was the driver, the person who drives this car. We did not know what was going on. MR NYAUZA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyauza. Ms van der Westhuizen, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Chairperson, just in short, one or two questions. Mr Mabizela, your nephew, was he much younger than you, the deceased? MR MABIZELA Yes, he was very young. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You didn't go out with him on a social basis to the theatre or something like that? MR MABIZELA No. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN I am not going to pursue this, I just want to put it, you might not necessarily know his political affiliation on the basis that you are a much older person, you didn't use to go out with him, you were much older than him. Do you have any comment on that? MR MABIZELA This nephew was fond of me, we were close and I will sometimes send him to the bank, but he had never mentioned anything about politics, he just loved soccer. On his way, on his return from work, he would also play soccer and also during weekends, on Sundays, he would play soccer, but he never participated in political activities. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And it is on this basis that you say that he was not politically affiliated, because he never mentioned it to you, is that correct? MR MABIZELA That is correct. He used to play soccer with his friends, he never mentioned anything about politics. He used to tell me about things, he used to confide in me. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mabizela, did he actually live with you under your roof? MR MABIZELA Yes, at my home. JUDGE DE JAGER ... place where he was killed? INTERPRETER Please repeat that question. CHAIRPERSON At the time of his death he lived with you? MR MABIZELA Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Didn't he stay there up to the age of 16? MR MABIZELA No, he used to reside at my home, he never left. His home was in Diepkloof, but he spent most of his time at my home. JUDGE DE JAGER So he had a home in Diepkloof? MR MABIZELA Yes, he did. JUDGE DE JAGER With whom was he staying in Diepkloof? MR MABIZELA His parents as well as his siblings. CHAIRPERSON From the time that he was killed, for how long had he been staying at your place? When did he last stay at Diepkloof prior to his death? MR MABIZELA He didn't stay at Diepkloof, he stayed at my home. He would maybe go there during the day to see them, but he didn't spend time in Diepkloof, he spent most of his time at my house. Even when he was attending school, he was staying at my home. CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Westhuizen. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mabizela, regarding your evidence just on that night and the people inside the kombi, I am not going to ask you detail about that, but wouldn't you agree with me that things happened very quickly, it was very dark at night and you could easily get confused as in making a mistake between men and women inside the kombi? MR MABIZELA Please repeat that. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Let me tackle this from another angle, you at some stage testified that there were four, about four people inside the kombi, then at a later stage you testified there were four women in the kombi. This is a clear indication that you are not exactly sure whether you indeed saw women in the kombi or not, would you agree with me? MR MABIZELA There were women in the kombi. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Well, you have heard the evidence of Mr Mhlongo and he will still maintain that there were only men inside the kombi. I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT No questions, thank you Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Nyauza? MR NYAUZA No re-examination Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAUZA CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager, any questions? Adv Sigodi, any questions? ADV SIGODI Yes. Did the deceased have any children? MR MABIZELA No. ADV SIGODI So his closest relatives would be his parents? MR MABIZELA That would be his parents and the closest members of the family. ADV SIGODI Okay, and are both his parents still alive? MR MABIZELA Yes. ADV SIGODI Do you perhaps have their names? MR MABIZELA Kenneth and Eva and the father is also present. ADV SIGODI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any questions arising? Thank you. Thank you Mr Mabizela. That concludes your evidence. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyauza? MR NYAUZA I was wondering as to whether it is argument time or not? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I just asking if you've got any further evidence? MR NYAUZA No, I don't. CHAIRPERSON No, okay. MR NYAUZA That will be the case for the victims. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it is argument time, now. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Chairperson. Just before we proceed, the applicant, it is not part of his application, but indicated that he would just express how he felt about what he had done. CHAIRPERSON Certainly Ms van der Westhuizen. Ms Mhlongo, Ms van der Westhuizen has indicated that there is something that you would like to say about what you had done. You are free to say what you wish. MR MHLONGO Well, there is one thing I would like to say regarding what I have done. I do regret for all the acts I have committed. I would like to extend my apologies to the family of the victim. I feel this great remorse in me as a result of my acts. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mhlongo. Ms van der Westhuizen. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN IN ARGUMENT Thank you honourable Chairperson, just in short, I will submit that the applicant's application comply with all the formal requirements of the act, it is an act associated with a political objective and that full disclosure was made by this applicant. Honourable Chairperson, if I say full disclosure was made, that should be seen in view of the fact that this applicant has been in prison for quite a long time, and obviously will not be in a position to specifically state addresses and details where people involved, or people he knew at that stage, is still residing. As far as the political objective is concerned, I want to submit that from the background of the applicant, it is clear that he was part of the political struggle. He experienced attacks on himself, people got injured very close to him, it is clear that he came from a family, he was brought up within the IFP, support - in that group, he became part of the leadership of the IFP Youth at the Jeppe Hostel, he acted there as Assistant-Secretary of the IFP. He did not act on his own in this matter, he followed the instructions of a person whom he regarded as his leader, namely Mr Mazibuko. It is also clear that there was further pressure from the community in the Jeppe Hostel to obtain transport and that they felt under the circumstances very pressurised. It is clear from his evidence that he did not gain anything personally from committing this act. The transport that he was seeking was to be used at the hostel for the IFP and to go to the specific conference and also to transport guns. The applicant bona fide believed that he was acting in the furtherance of the political structure. This whole incident took place during a period in which there was basically a war between the IFP and the ANC and it was the middle of 1993, leading up to the elections in 1994. It was a very tense climate and it should be seen against that background and I will humbly request this Committee to grant the applicant amnesty. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Mr Nyauza? MR NYAUZA IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chairperson. Testimony has been given before this hearing that, by the applicant, that he wanted this kombi to be used to transport arms and members of his political affiliation. There was agitation from his own members about them not getting them transport, but despite that, he had the nerve to get a friend of his whose political affiliation he did not support, he did not say he was an IFP member, he just said "he was my co-worker and a friend". So he is compromising the, if we are to believe his version, then it means he is compromising the seat that is supposed to be used by a bona fide IFP member to attend a meeting that is extremely important to them, for somebody who is not politically affiliated to the IFP. CHAIRPERSON For somebody who was not going to the conference? MR NYAUZA Yes, he was not going to the conference. Somebody, that seat could have been used by somebody from his political affiliation. CHAIRPERSON I think the idea of the transport was to shuttle people to the conference, you know, so even if somebody was an IFP and got a lift, who wasn't going to the conference, it would be taking up a seat of a conference goer? MR NYAUZA Exactly. CHAIRPERSON So you are saying it is improbable, his version is improbable? MR NYAUZA It is improbable. CHAIRPERSON Taking into account that? MR NYAUZA That is what I am saying. And as regards him not having gained anything out of the whole thing, we have heard testimony from Mr Mabizela and I would kindly submit to this Committee that despite the problem that we had with Mr Mabizela to adduce evidence, testimony has been given that there were women in this motor vehicle, and these were church women and we know that they were going to religious ceremony somewhere in Natal. That has not been disputed, it was actually not contested further. CHAIRPERSON It would seem, just on this whole aspect, that it would have been, it must have been on the applicant's version, an incredible coincidence that he goes to Baragwanath taxi rank, which is busy, picks a taxi to hijack, hijacks the taxi and it turns out to be a taxi which gets washed next door to his friend's house in Jabulani. It is just an incredible coincidence? MR NYAUZA Exactly. CHAIRPERSON That the taxi was found by Mr Moloyi and his sons, right there at Jabulani, when it was hijacked at Baragwanath? JUDGE DE JAGER But it is also a fact that in the meantime, they had killed the man, dropped him in the veld, so that happened, it is a fact, they found the body there and then came back by coincidence, next to the house where the girlfriend was living? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, if you could just tell me and that is not evidence, but we can always look it up, Jabulani, where is Jabulani in relation to Baragwanath for instance? Mr (indistinct) can just tell me. MR MABIZELA Next to the Fire Brigade, Jabulani Fire Brigade. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, next to where? MR NYAUZA I think Jabulani is about eight kilometres, eight to ten kilometres from Baragwanath Hospital. JUDGE DE JAGER And how far from the place where the body was found? MR NYAUZA More than 25 kilometres, it is in town, it was found in Denver, just when you are on the M2 East. CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr Nyauza. MR NYAUZA Honourable Commissioners, we have heard numerous applications before this hearing, and members who were politically affiliated, have been supported with affidavits by people who gave instructions, and they would state that there was political turmoil at the time, but what we did not give these people were rights to take people's lives. We are today faced with a situation where the applicant is the only person who knows, who tells us that he was an IFP member. As regards the addresses of people who gave instructions to him, he does not know. He only knows that they stay at Jeppe Hostel. It is common cause that IFP members stayed at hostels around the country, and any person, you know, if I were to for want of a better word, I could have committed an offence in 1993 and then become a loose canon and say "no, I was acting within the ambit of a particular party." CHAIRPERSON It is always very easy to just say that. MR NYAUZA Exactly. So, we needed him to support his version, that he is an IFP member, we needed him - I asked him questions regarding his membership number. This is a gentleman who was Assistant-General Secretary. CHAIRPERSON Assistant-Secretary. MR NYAUZA Assistant-Secretary, and we expect a person would be in the know-how more than his other followers, but a lot of things we wanted from him, we would have to dig it out of him, to say "why didn't you mention X, why didn't you mention Y"? My argument is this thing was done, it is a criminal offence, it is not an offence that falls within the ambit of the Truth and Reconciliation Act, it is something that he did and with this friends and failed to achieve whatever he wanted to achieve. It is just that we did not want to get into the nitty-grittys of the criminal trial in that they don't have that much weight here, but based on what has been said before this Commission today, Mr Mhlongo's version cannot be corroborated by anybody. He has referred us to a lot of people. Where is his cousin, Agrip Ncuncu that he has referred us to? He is not in this court today, he has not made an affidavit to support that "yes, I know he did", he calls him his witness, but he is not here. JUDGE DE JAGER Have we any evidence that contradicts what he said? MR NYAUZA Yes, we do Your Honour. He stated that there were four males in the motor vehicle. The guy who went with the Moloyi's to the car that was parked there, has given testimony that there were women in that motor vehicle which supports the version that he had told those people that "I will organise a kombi to take you to that religious ceremony in Natal." JUDGE DE JAGER He also stated that Mr Moloyi, the father was in the Skyline and according to the evidence at the trial, he wasn't in the Skyline. MR NYAUZA No, he said Mr Moloyi's son. JUDGE DE JAGER Was the driver? MR NYAUZA Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER But he also referred to Mr Moloyi? MR NYAUZA I didn't pick that up Your Honour. JUDGE DE JAGER ... notes, that we can ... MR NYAUZA In essence I would make an application to this Committee to dismiss the application for amnesty. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyauza. Ms Lockhat, do you have anything? MS LOCKHAT I have no further submissions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any reply Ms van der Westhuizen? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN IN REPLY Maybe just as to further support or the lack of further support as indicated by my learned friend, the applicant is in prison, he has supplied whatever detail he could to the TRC. He is hardly in a position to find these people himself. CHAIRPERSON We understand that, yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And that is - I would just make one comment on the fact that he didn't know his membership number, as rightly stated by you honourable Chairperson, a lot of people go through life without knowing their ID numbers, so I would respectfully submit that that cannot hold any water. Furthermore as to the evidence of Mr Mabizela and women getting in and out, his evidence is on record, and I will just submit that he wasn't a very good witness and there cannot be placed any reliance on his evidence. As the honourable Committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. We will reserve our decision in this matter and we will get out a decision as soon as possible. I would like to thank Ms van der Westhuizen, Mr Nyauza, Ms Lockhat for your assistance in this matter. Ms Lockhat, is that the roll for the week? MS LOCKHAT That concludes our roll Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON For - yes, thank you. We have now come to the end of our roll, there were nine matters set on it. One was withdraw, we have heard eight, and we have finished two days ahead of schedule, so we didn't do badly at all. I would like to, before we adjourn, just thank everybody who made these hearings possible. The people at JISS for providing this venue, which is very convenient and very nice, television, sound technician people, the interpreters who have worked very hard all week. All the matters that we have heard, involved a lot of interpreting. The logistics officers, our secretaries, the caterers, everybody, security people, Correctional Service for bringing the people, thank you very much. We will then be adjourning now. I believe there will be another Committee here next week, even again the week after, I will be back in two weeks time. Thank you very much, we are now adjourned. MS LOCKHAT All rise. HEARING ADJOURNS