amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-02 PRETORIA 13 KENNY WILLIAM MORE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53855&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110212_pre_991102pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Who is the next applicant to be heard in relation to this incident? MR JOUBERT Madam Chair, I understand that Mr More should be the following witness to make the proceedings a bit more ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, we would prefer that. MR JOUBERT Mr More will be testifying in Tswana, Madam Chair. ADV MOTATA Please give us your full name? MR MORE Kenny William More. KENNY WILLIAM MORE (sworn states) ADV MOTATA Duly sworn in Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Motata. Mr Joubert? EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT Thank you Madam Chair. Mr More, you have testified before this Committee prior to today's hearing pertaining to your history, your involvement in the South African Police and your political objectives in acting in the different matters that are being heard, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT The application which is being heard today appears from page 104 through to page 108 of Bundle 1. Do you confirm the contents on these pages of your application? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT You have also heard the evidence given prior to yours, by Mr Prinsloo, is that correct? MR MORE Correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT I would like to just shortly take you through your evidence pertaining to paragraph 1, page 104, the question arising with regards to the informer. Was the informer your registered informer prior to Capt Prinsloo contacting you? MR MORE He came later Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Do you know who was the handler of this person prior to your involvement with the informer? MR MORE That is correct. MR JOUBERT Can you provide us with the name of the previous handler? INTERPRETER Please repeat your answer. MR MORE Libson Ndima. MR JOUBERT Was he a member of the Police Force? MR MORE Correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT What was his rank? MR MORE He was a Constable. INTERPRETER Just a minute Chairperson - we may continue Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Const Ndima, am I correct in stating that you knew him or that you were a friend of his, Const Ndima? MR MORE Yes, he was my friend and my co-worker. MR JOUBERT And that the informer as an informer of - I will repeat that - and that the informer as an informer of Const Ndima was ... INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. CHAIRPERSON Your microphone is off Mr Joubert. MR JOUBERT Thank you Madam Chair. That the informer of Const Ndima was also aware of who you were and what your position was? CHAIRPERSON Why don't you ask him without having to lead him, Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT I will do so Madam Chair. Your evidence so far is that the informer was the informer of Const Ndima, correct? MR MORE Correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And that you and Const Ndima were in fact friends or that you knew one another? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT The informer to which reference is made in this application, did you know of him prior to being introduced or having to do with him, pertaining to the matter of Petrus Lubane, have you met him prior to this? CHAIRPERSON Mr More, may I interrupt? There is a request that you must try and speak a little louder, because it is very difficult for the translators as well as the transcribers to pick up what you are saying, you are speaking a little bit soft. MR MORE Okay. May you please repeat the question sir. MR JOUBERT Did you know the informer or did you meet the informer prior to this particular incident, involving Petrus Lubane, had you met him prior to this? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Under what circumstances would that have been? MR MORE I was introduced to him by Mr Ndima, but at that time, I was not his handler. MR JOUBERT You have indicated in your application that you were contacted by Capt Prinsloo and requested to come to his office, whereafter you were informed of the information which had been received from this informer, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT You referred to the registration number of the informer as NTG402 in your application, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And I note that you have also indicated that you are aware of the name of the informer, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT On the request of Capt Prinsloo, you went to fetch the informer from Kromkuil near Hammanskraal, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And you took him to meet Capt Prinsloo, where would that have been? MR MORE We met at a certain place, but not at the office. MR JOUBERT This would have been at a different location where it would have been safe to meet with an informer, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson, outside town, Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Okay. And after you proceeded to attempt to infiltrate Petrus Lubane and you used the name Jeff? MR MORE Correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT The evidence has been led and I think it is quite clear from your application that there was a period of time during which your infiltration persisted, could you give an indication as to the exact period or a more or less indication of the period? Was it weeks or months? MR MORE I am not sure, but it may be months, some few months. CHAIRPERSON We already have your evidence on affidavit that it was a few months. Can you try and estimate the fewness of the months, whether it was two months or three months or three to six months, can you give us an estimate? MR MORE The way I infiltrated Lubane, it may be between four to six months, but not beyond six months. MR JOUBERT And then at some stage, you reported to Capt Prinsloo and you informed him that you were of the opinion that this Comrade X was not coming to light with any weapons or providing any training, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct, yes, I informed Capt Prinsloo. MR JOUBERT Did you have any suspicions at that stage why this was not coming to light? MR MORE I had a suspicion that time and again when he called me for training, he told me that the firearms were not there yet, so it is then that I started to realise that he is lying to me, or maybe he had a suspicion that I am a policeman. MR JOUBERT The matter was then left there for quite a while, is that correct? MR MORE Correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT In paragraph 6 on page 105 of your application, you indicate that a few weeks later, you were requested by Capt Prinsloo to arrange - or no, sorry let me arrange that, Capt Prinsloo requested the informer to arrange for an appointment with Comrade X. How do you know this, were you present during this request or were you informed of this request? MR MORE When Capt Prinsloo requested that the appointment should be made with Comrade X, I was present, we were three. MR JOUBERT Can you recall whether the exact location for the meeting was indicated or was this left to the discretion of yourself and the informer? MR MORE We did not discuss about the point of the appointment, but the informer phoned the following day to confirm that the person has arrived and would be at a particular place at a particular time, we will find him at a particular place. MR JOUBERT And this particular place, would that be Andries and Pretorius Streets as indicated in paragraph 6 of your application? MR MORE That is correct, that is corner of Pretorius and Andries Streets. MR JOUBERT In paragraph 7 you indicate that the following day you were requested by Capt Prinsloo to attempt to arrest Comrade X and not to draw any attention in this regard, correct? MR MORE That is correct, but before we went to arresting, Capt Prinsloo informed me in the office that the informer had phoned, that that person is on his way or he has arrived. Capt Prinsloo called me to his office together with Const Bafana Mbatha to go and arrest that person. After we arrested the person, we should inform him through the radio. MR JOUBERT In paragraph 7 on page 107 of your application, the second line from the top you indicate and I quote "... it actually meant that we were supposed to abduct him." Is this how you understood the instruction, to arrest him without drawing any attention? MR MORE That is correct, I thought that we were going to abduct him. MR JOUBERT After abducting Comrade X, you notified Capt Prinsloo accordingly? You personally or was that Sgt Mbatha? MR MORE It is myself who informed him, I informed him myself. MR JOUBERT Was it only at that stage that you were informed where to meet with Capt Prinsloo? MR MORE That is the time when he informed us that we should meet him at a particular place. MR JOUBERT This rendezvous was to take place on the road leading to Klapperkop Fort, is that correct? MR MORE That is at Klapperkop on the mountain. MR JOUBERT And when you met with Capt Prinsloo there, was there anybody with him? MR MORE I remember that Warrant Officer Dos Santos was present. MR JOUBERT Okay. Hereafter Petrus Lubane was handed over to them and you followed Capt Prinsloo, Dos Santos and Petrus Lubane onto the Pietersburg highway, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT With your arrival on the farm, you and Mbatha were requested to return to Pretoria, is that correct? MR MORE Correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Was this immediately upon your arrival on the farm or had you spent a period of time on the farm before being ordered to return to Pretoria? MR MORE We stayed a few minutes on the farm, we didn't stay a long time. MR JOUBERT Was any reason given to you for having to return to Pretoria? MR MORE No reason was furnished, we were just informed that we should return to Pretoria to go and do our work. MR JOUBERT And at that stage, what did you think was the purpose of having Mr Lubane taken to the farm? MR MORE I thought that Capt Prinsloo and others wanted to interrogate him. MR JOUBERT And then after a period of approximately a week, you were requested to return to the farm, is that correct? MR MORE Correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And upon your return there, did you find as indicated in your application, Warrant Officer Dos Santos, Const Smuts Mathebula, Jerry Matjeni inter alia? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Can you recall whether there were any other people present or not? MR MORE They could have been there, but I don't remember. MR JOUBERT Further on in paragraph 9 on page 107 of the application, you indicate that Capt Prinsloo handed a pen and a piece of paper to Comrade X, do you recall that? MR MORE Correct Chairperson, I still remember. MR JOUBERT In paragraph 9, the third line from the bottom, you indicate and I quote "... to write a letter to his wife." MR MORE Correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Can you specifically recall it as such or is this merely a deduction that you make as to what the reason was for the handing of the pen and the paper? MR MORE I don't know the reason behind the instruction that he should write a letter to his wife, maybe it was in connection with the abduction. MR JOUBERT You have heard the evidence of Capt Prinsloo that he gave the pen and the paper to Comrade X in order for him to draw a plan to determine whether this was in accordance with the documents which he retrieved from his motor vehicle, is that correct? MR MORE Correct Chairperson, I heard that. MR JOUBERT You also indicate in your paragraph 9 that you are not sure what this man referring to Comrade X, had to write in the letter, is that correct? MR MORE Yes. What I heard Capt Prinsloo telling is that he gave him a pen and paper and telling him that he should write a letter to his wife, then he said "wait, I will tell you of what you should write on that letter." MR JOUBERT Is it at that stage that you left the room? MR MORE That is correct, I went outside. MR JOUBERT In paragraph 10 you indicate that Capt Prinsloo requested yourself, Smuts which is Const Mathebula, Jerry and Mbatha to go to Pienaarsrivier to go and buy beer, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Can you recall where at Pienaarsrivier you had to go? MR MORE There is only one shopping complex there and it has a bottle store, then we went there. MR JOUBERT Can you recall how many beers you were to buy, or not? MR MORE I don't remember personally of the amount. MR JOUBERT Okay. Upon your return to the farm, or let me first, for how long were you absent from the farm when you left to go and buy the beer, more or less? MR MORE I would estimate more than an hour, because from the farm to Pienaarsrivier, is approximately 30 to 40 kilometres. MR JOUBERT Upon your return to the farm, you noticed that Warrant Officer Dos Santos and Capt Prinsloo were in the veld, your application uses the word "bos", would that be bush or would that be in the veld as such? MR MORE It is within that farm, it is just a small bush, it is not congested. MR JOUBERT You also testify in the same, or you indicate in the same paragraph that you were requested to have a look around whether anything was laying around there, do you recall this? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Can you recall whether anything was indeed found by any of the members while you were present? MR MORE Yes. Somebody fetched something, it was a piece of flesh. Attached to it was a hair, then he threw that piece of flesh into a hole. MR JOUBERT And what was done then thereafter with this hole, was it closed or was it left open or what? MR MORE The hole was closed Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Hereafter did you, or what did you do hereafter? MR MORE After that, we left and then they told us that the car should be taken to Bosplaas, Bosplaas West where it should be destroyed, that is the car belonging to Mr Lubane. MR JOUBERT Yes, but now from there where the piece of flesh were thrown into the hole and closed, did you immediately from that scene there leave to go and burn the vehicle or did you first return to the farmhouse or what happened? MR MORE After that we went to the farmhouse, then we ate and then we drank alcohol. MR JOUBERT Was it at this stage when the decision was made as to what had to happen to the motor vehicle? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson, that is when we learnt about the decision to destroy the car. MR JOUBERT The order, who gave the order for the vehicle to be destroyed or burnt? MR MORE That is Capt Prinsloo. MR JOUBERT And then you travelled, did you travel with Mr Mathebula in the vehicle? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And this would be to Bosplaas West near Hammanskraal, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Is this place where the vehicle was burnt, is this close to Babalegi or not? MR MORE I don't remember well as to whether it is near Babalegi, but there were no houses nearby, it was in the veld. MR JOUBERT After the vehicle had been burnt, what did you do? MR MORE We were informed to disperse. We went into various cars and then we left. MR JOUBERT Do you know what happened to Petrus Lubane? MR MORE Through my observations in the farm, he was not there in the farm, and when I saw that piece of flesh, I knew that he had died. MR JOUBERT Did you at any stage partake in any assault on Mr Lubane? MR MORE No Chairperson. MR JOUBERT And at the stage when yourself and Sgt Mbatha arrested or abducted him, was any force used, was it necessary for any force? MR MORE No Chairperson, we didn't use force. Mbatha showed him the police identity card, then he informed him to get into the car, then he handcuffed him and then we left with him. MR JOUBERT And then from page 108 onwards is where you request the amnesty for any deeds resulting from your acts in this matter, is that correct? MR MORE Correct Chairperson. MR JOUBERT I have no further questions, thank you Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I have been requested to adjourn for five minutes after Mr More's evidence-in-chief. We will take a five minute adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS KENNY WILLIAM MORE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Before we adjourned, I indicated that the adjournment would be for five minutes. MR MORE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON I hope you will be wearing your watch next time, just to make sure that five minutes does not extend to ten. MR MORE I will do so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions to put to Mr More? MR DU PLESSIS Madam Chair, I find it difficult to believe it myself, but I don't have any questions. CHAIRPERSON You may find it difficult to believe, but we are glad you have exercised your mind not to have any questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN No questions, thank you Chair. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON You don't find it difficult to believe that you don't have any questions? Mr Prinsloo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRINSLOO Thank you Madam Chairperson. Mr More, as far as it concerns the informer, this informer was handled by a co-worker of yours, Mr Ndima? MR MORE Before he came to our section, he was handled by Mr Ndima. ADV PRINSLOO Mr Ndima, he was a member of another unit? MR MORE That is correct. ADV PRINSLOO Was this Section B? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. ADV PRINSLOO And the Commander of that unit was someone else, not Mr Prinsloo, the applicant? MR MORE That is correct. ADV PRINSLOO And Mr Ndima would have to report to his Commander, not to Mr Prinsloo regarding his informer? MR MORE I don't know the reason why Ndima transferred the informer to our section. CHAIRPERSON The question is was Mr Ndima reporting to his Commander and not to Mr Prinsloo, yes or no? MR MORE I don't know as to whether he was reporting to his Commander. ADV PRINSLOO I am not attempting to trap you in any way, but you know that when there was an informer, the informer would be paid? You heard the evidence of Mr Prinsloo that reports had to be submitted by the handler of the informer? MR MORE That is correct. ADV PRINSLOO And according to your version, Mr Ndima who was the handler, would have to submit reports to his Commander regarding the informer? MR MORE The section where Ndima was, was not engaged in tracing the terrorists. It was working in connection with local political activists within the country. ADV PRINSLOO Whatever the information was that the informer provided to Mr Ndima would have to have been placed in writing by Mr Ndima, do you follow that? MR MORE That is correct, I follow you. ADV PRINSLOO And then Mr Prinsloo would not have had any control over that informer, because he was in a different unit? MR MORE Yes, that is correct Chairperson, Ndima was supposed to write a report and give it to his Commander, then that Commander would submit a report to Capt Prinsloo in regard to the information gathered by this informer. The reason behind that Mr Ndima handed that informer to Mr Prinsloo, I don't know the reason behind that. ADV PRINSLOO But he could not act alone without the approval of his Commander and transfer his informer to another unit where Mr Prinsloo would be involved with him? Do you follow? MR MORE It is in two ways. It may be so if the informer was not a registered informer, if he is a registered informer, you must via your Commander first if you want to transfer that informer to another person. But if that informer is not a registered informer, therefore on your own, you can decide to transfer him to any other person of your choice. ADV PRINSLOO An unregistered informer would also have reports, because he would also have to be paid and it would have been the same sort of case? MR MORE There were informers which are unregistered and they were not paid and there are those who were paid. ADV PRINSLOO Mr More, I am putting the question to you that you may be mistaken due to the fact that this took place a long time ago, that from the beginning this was your informer and that this other colleague, Mr Ndima, who was a friend of yours, and that this informer was known to both of you? Are you not confusing the situation that you were the handler and that Ndima simply knew about it? MR MORE No Chairperson, I am not making a mistake, Ndima was his handler. Even the informer, I knew him through Mr Ndima for the first time, before he came to our section. ADV PRINSLOO You see Mr More, in your evidence I understood that before this informer became involved in your division, Ndima handled the man, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. ADV PRINSLOO Just a moment please Chairperson. According to your version, Mr More, I just want to determine whether or not I was making an incorrect statement, according to your own version, you then began to handle that informer when he started at your division, is that correct? MR MORE Yes, that is correct. ADV PRINSLOO Therefore he would have been registered in your name, your informer, and you as his handler, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. ADV PRINSLOO And that also correlates with the evidence of Mr Prinsloo that you were the handler of that person? MR MORE We were co-handling this informer from the start, immediately he arrived at our section. After he was introduced to us about the information he had, then I became a co-handler with Capt Prinsloo towards that informer. ADV PRINSLOO After the informer was introduced to Mr Prinsloo by you, after that, you and Mr Prinsloo were the co-handlers of the same informer, is that correct? MR MORE If I understand your question well, immediately this informer was brought to Capt Prinsloo, then he called me, then he introduced me to this informer and asked me as to whether I know him, and then I said yes, then he said I should go and fetch him at his place. I fetched him at his place in Kromkuil, then I brought him to a point where we agreed with Capt Prinsloo. From that day onwards, I was a co-handler with Capt Prinsloo then. I didn't handle him first and then Capt Prinsloo came later, but from the beginning we were co-handlers of him. ADV PRINSLOO Mr More I understand your evidence that you knew the informer before Mr Prinsloo, is that correct? MR MORE Yes, I knew him merely as a person, but I was not handling him. ADV PRINSLOO And did you trust this informer? MR MORE Yes, I trusted that informer. ADV PRINSLOO The question is this informer trusted you? MR MORE Yes, he did Chairperson. ADV PRINSLOO Because the informer wouldn't simply go to Mr Prinsloo if he didn't know him, but you knew him? MR MALAN Mr Prinsloo, the evidence is that he was transferred from B to C, to Mr Prinsloo, not that he went to him of his own volition. ADV PRINSLOO Chairperson, with respect, he stated that he knew the informer beforehand. MR MALAN Yes, that is correct. ADV PRINSLOO I want to know whether the informer knew him and trusted him, but that he didn't know Prinsloo, that is the question. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean, whilst he was being handled by Mr Ndima? ADV PRINSLOO With respect Madam Chair, that is the version of Mr More that he was handled by Ndima. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV PRINSLOO According to Prinsloo's version, he was handled by Mr More. When he met him, when he saw the reports about him, the reports on his desk, that is Mr Prinsloo's version, and from that moment onwards, he was handled already, at that stage by More, the witness. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr More's version is that they co-handled the informer right from the beginning with Mr Prinsloo. That at no stage he handled the informer all by himself. That is his version. ADV PRINSLOO Mr More, in order to understand this aspect, the informer was not personally known to Mr Prinsloo, is that correct? MR MORE Yes, that is correct, he didn't know him earlier. ADV PRINSLOO He could not have handled him if he was not his informer, because he didn't know him, he simply knew him as a number on a piece of paper, is that correct? And he had not yet met the person to determine whether or not this person would accept him as his handler, is that correct? MR MORE That is not correct Chairperson, he knew him at the time when Ndima introduced the informer to him. ADV PRINSLOO So you are saying that the informer was introduced to Mr Prinsloo by Ndima, is that what you are saying? MR MORE Yes, that is what I am saying Chairperson. ADV PRINSLOO But that isn't your evidence-in-chief, that Ndima had introduced the informer in person, to Mr Prinsloo? MR MORE That is so, even in my statement I stated it that way. ADV PRINSLOO I don't wish to dispute this point any longer with you, and waste any further time, the fact of the matter remains that this person was an informer who had provided information regarding this person, Comrade, also known as Petrus Lubane, is that correct, and you knew him? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. ADV PRINSLOO And information was provided to you by this informer from time to time, that is your evidence? MR MORE I used to go with this informer to infiltrate Petrus Lubane. Time and again I was with him, at times he would go alone. I knew very well what was happening between the informer and Petrus Lubane. ADV PRINSLOO And you heard that Mr Prinsloo testified about what you said and that there is no difference in your evidence and his evidence, regarding the handling of the person and the information which was provided? MR MALAN Mr Prinsloo, there are essential differences in the evidence regarding at which stage information was given to Mr More? Isn't it Mr Prinsloo's evidence that Mr More obtained a great deal of information at a certain point and that this was his source of information? ADV PRINSLOO I do not understand what you say when you mean that there are essential differences. MR MALAN But you have just put it to the applicant that there is no difference between his evidence and the evidence of Mr Prinsloo. Are you referring to the content of the information? ADV PRINSLOO That is correct Chairperson. Very well. Mr More, upon this day when you "arrested" Comrade X, when you abducted him, Mr Prinsloo did not know where you would meet him, is that correct? MR MORE Before we abducted him, Prinsloo did not know where, then we contacted him through the radio then he informed us where we should meet him. ADV PRINSLOO I couldn't hear the answer, just a moment please. And according to Mr Prinsloo, you were in contact with this informer regarding where you would meet him and so forth, is that correct? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. ADV PRINSLOO And after you had picked up this person, you met Mr Prinsloo and you said that Dos Santos was also present? MR MORE That is correct. ADV PRINSLOO Now if one looks at what you have said regarding what took place at the farm, you state that Prinsloo, the applicant, gave this person a pen and a sheet of paper to write a letter to his wife. MR MORE That is correct. ADV PRINSLOO What language did he speak? MR MORE He used English Chairperson. ADV PRINSLOO And what did he tell him, what was he supposed to write? MR MORE He said to him he should write a letter to his wife, and then he would tell him what to write. ADV PRINSLOO What did he tell him to write? MR MORE That was the time that I left, then I went outside, I didn't hear. ADV PRINSLOO You didn't see him write anything or anything like that? MR MORE No Chairperson, I didn't see him writing. ADV PRINSLOO And you heard Mr Prinsloo's evidence during which he stated that he indeed gave this person a pen and paper, but the reason for that was for him to make sketches of sketches, which Mr Prinsloo had found in his vehicle. Can you dispute this? MR MORE I was not present, I was outside, I didn't know that. ADV PRINSLOO And you also heard that Mr Prinsloo denied that he told the man to write a letter to his wife? MR MORE I heard him. ADV PRINSLOO Just a moment's indulgence please, Chairperson. Mr More, do you say that Mr Prinsloo had a beer with you or are you saying that there were people who were having beers? MR MORE There were those who were drinking alcohol, I will not say that he was also drinking. I was drinking with others, I was not able to observe who were drinking and those who were not drinking. ADV PRINSLOO Can you tell the Committee whether Mr Prinsloo would have seen anybody drinking? MR MORE May you please repeat your question? ADV PRINSLOO Can you tell the Committee whether Mr Prinsloo saw anybody having beers, physically? MR MORE I don't know, he was supposed to tell this Committee. We were at a different place and we were walking around and about, it is possible that he saw them if he was not inside the house, but if he was not in the house, he could not have seen, because we were outside. ADV PRINSLOO Nothing further, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Prinsloo. MR MALAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr More, did you have any knowledge regarding the proposed attack and the sketch plans and the reconnaissance of Wachthuis along with the layout? MR MORE What I had personally, I didn't learn them from Mr Lubane, but I learnt from the informer, one day I was with the informer and with Capt Lubane, Capt Prinsloo and then he gave the report that he is from the Head Office and they made reconnaissance together with the informer and then they wanted to plant some bombs there. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr van Heerden? MR VAN HEERDEN No questions, Madam Chair. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, Madam Chair. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN No further questions, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? ADV MOTATA None Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr More, I just have one question with regard to how you came to be introduced to the informer. I am not clear as to when you were introduced to the informer and how you and Mr Prinsloo came to be co-handlers of the informer. Can you just try and assist us in getting some kind of clarity with regard to that. How were you introduced to this informer? MR MORE The informer was brought by Const Ndima, then he brought him to Capt Prinsloo in regard to the information around East Rand and other issues. I was only introduced to this informer for me to be able to infiltrate and then again to monitor the movements of Petrus Lubane, that is for the first time where I started to work with this informer closely from that particular day up to the day we kidnapped Petrus Lubane. CHAIRPERSON When Const Ndima brought the informer to Prinsloo, were you present? MR MORE I was not present Chairperson, I learnt later after I was called, the following day that I should go and fetch him at his place in Kromkuil, that he is Const Ndima's informer. Then I was asked as to whether I know him, I said yes. I was asked as to whether I know his place and I said yes, then I was instructed to go and fetch him, then after that I should tell them that I did, then they would meet me at a particular place. CHAIRPERSON I am having difficulty to understand how you and Capt Prinsloo became co-handlers as you have stated in your evidence, right at the beginning. I am trying to find out the beginning, what is the beginning of this beginning of you co-handling the informer with Mr Prinsloo. MR MORE When I speak of the beginning, I am mentioning the first day when I was introduced to this informer, that he has information about a person who wanted to form a unit and that person was from East Rand, he is only known as a comrade. CHAIRPERSON Who advised you that there was a certain kind of an informer who had information with regard to a person who was involved in the East Rand? MR MORE That is Capt Prinsloo. CHAIRPERSON So that would presumably mean that Capt Prinsloo knew about the existence of an informant before you? MR MORE Yes, in a section, yes. CHAIRPERSON Now, how did you learn that Const Ndima had introduced the informer to Mr Prinsloo? MR MORE When I was called, it was in the morning when they told me about this informer, the previous day he was brought to Capt Prinsloo. I am trying to say Ndima contacted Capt Prinsloo and informed him about this informer. That is what I am thinking, I am not saying that is what he said. It is because maybe I know this informer, I would be able to work with him. CHAIRPERSON The question is how did you know that Const Ndima had brought the informer to Mr Prinsloo? MR MORE Ndima informed me. CHAIRPERSON And you say that the introduction of this informer to Capt Prinsloo took place a day before you were called by Capt Prinsloo and requested to go and collect the informer for purposes of the meeting with him on that day? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When did you become a handler of this informer, if that is so? MR MORE On that day after I had collected him from his place, then after meeting Capt Prinsloo together with him, that is when I started to be a handler of that informer. CHAIRPERSON How did you become a handler, was this a position you assumed yourself, or were you assigned by anyone to become this informer's handler? MR MORE Capt Prinsloo informed me that I should start to work with this informer and that I should handle him from that day. Then he informed me again that he would be a co-handler of that informer because each and every report we were making, we would do it together, that is myself and Capt Prinsloo and the informer, if there is a report we are supposed to compile. CHAIRPERSON Was this informer aware that you were now his handler together with Capt Prinsloo? MR MORE Yes, he knew very well. CHAIRPERSON Was this explained at this meeting that you are referring to, which happened a day after Mr Ndima allegedly introduced this informer to Mr Prinsloo? MR MORE I don't know the content of the meeting of the previous day, I only know the content of the meeting when I was present, when I was informed about my responsibilities from that particular day. I didn't know the discussions from the previous day, but Ndima only informed me that he transferred his informer to Capt Prinsloo. CHAIRPERSON My enquiries are about the meeting that happened a day after Ndima allegedly introduced the informer to Mr Prinsloo, and my question is, I will repeat again, were you thereat informed about the fact that you will then begin to handle this informer in conjunction with Mr Prinsloo? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was this information relayed to you in the presence of the informer? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON For how long were you in that position as the informer's handler prior to the decision to abduct Mr Lubane? MR MORE From that particular date to the day when he was abducted, I was his handler. CHAIRPERSON I want you to estimate the period, how long were you his handler prior to his abduction? MR MORE It is about months, but not up to a year, but not, again not beyond six months. Not beyond six months Chairperson. I am not sure about the exact duration. CHAIRPERSON Did you submit reports to Mr Prinsloo emanating from the information that you obtained from the handling of this informer? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you know how frequently these reports had to be submitted to Mr Prinsloo? MR MORE I am not sure, but on a daily basis after I met,, we have met Comrade X, we would arrange a place where we would meet with Capt Prinsloo and explain to him about the whole events of that particular day. After that, I would go and collect his file and write something on the informer's file. CHAIRPERSON What kind of information did you compile in these reports about Mr Lubane? MR MORE My basis was on the issue of my training by Mr Lubane, because he wanted to start a unit in Pretoria, around Pretoria district to train youth members for military training in the use of AK47's and explosives. Then he told me that he would train me so that I would be able to train others this side. CHAIRPERSON Was that the only information you were able to compile in your reports that you prepared for Mr Prinsloo? MR MORE That is correct, that was my basis of my report. CHAIRPERSON Did it revolved around the training of youths in the area on AK47 weaponry? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And that was all? MR MORE I don't remember if there is any other issue, if there is, I forgot. CHAIRPERSON Were you particularly told by the informer about the reconnaissance that he conducted with Mr Lubane of Wachthuis and House of Coffees? MR MORE Yes, I was informed by the informer. CHAIRPERSON And when were you informed of this reconnaissance? MR MORE I don't remember when, but it was during those days when we used to meet with Mr Lubane. CHAIRPERSON It was during your infiltration process on Mr Lubane? MR MORE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Would you say this happened immediately prior to his abduction, you being informed about this reconnaissance? MR MORE I don't understand your question. CHAIRPERSON Did the information about the fact that the informer had reconnoitred Wachthuis and the House of Coffees together with Mr Lubane, come to your notice a few weeks prior to the abduction of Mr Lubane? MR MORE I don't remember well, but it was during that period when we were trying to infiltrate Mr Lubane. I don't remember as to whether it is weeks or two months before. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Joubert, do you wish to re-examine? MR JOUBERT I have no re-examination, thank you Madam Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr More, you are excused as a witness. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn our proceedings and we will resume tomorrow at half past nine, would that be appropriate to all involved in this matter? Half past nine, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS