amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-03 PRETORIA 14 JOSE ANTONIO TYIXYIVA DOS SANTOS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53857&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110212_pre_991103pt.htm JOSE ANTONIO TYIXYIVA DOS SANTOS (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Sworn in, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Malan. EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr Dos Santos, your amnesty application is contained within bundle 1. The formal application form appears from page 380 to 382. Annexure A, which deals with this particular incident, appears from page 383 to 386, and then we have your political motivation which appears from page 387 to 399. Is that correct? MR DOS SANTOS Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT You were also a member of the South African Police during the years 1986, or at least '87 and '88. MR DOS SANTOS Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT At which branch were you stationed? MR DOS SANTOS The Northern Transvaal Security Branch. MS VAN DER WALT And what was your rank at that stage? MR DOS SANTOS I was a Warrant Officer. MS VAN DER WALT And who was your commander? MR DOS SANTOS Capt Crafford. MS VAN DER WALT And Capt Prinsloo, was he from the same division? MR DOS SANTOS Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT You've heard the evidence of the three previous applicants. I just want to refer you to certain aspects in your application on page 383 and 384. There you make mention of information which was found with regard to the person by the name of Comrade, you yourself were not involved with the interrogation. How was this information conveyed to you? MR DOS SANTOS It would have been by Capt Crafford or Capt Prinsloo. MS VAN DER WALT Is it correct that at the Security Branch there was always a series of lectures during which the information would be conveyed to you? MR DOS SANTOS It wasn't really a lecture basis, it took place on the need-to-know basis. MS VAN DER WALT But there were such information sessions during which the information would be conveyed to you? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT There was evidence that you were with Mr Prinsloo after Comrade had been abducted in a vehicle there by Klapperkop. Do you have any knowledge thereof? MR DOS SANTOS I cannot recall it, but it has been testified to by two persons, therefore I would accept that I was there. MS VAN DER WALT And then there has been further evidence that you are the person who blew up the body of the deceased with explosives. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Who gave you the order to do this? MR DOS SANTOS Capt Crafford. MS VAN DER WALT And what sort of explosives did you use? MR DOS SANTOS I used two limpet mines, which I detonated with Pentolite Cortex and a shell. MS VAN DER WALT Did you offer any input when it came to administering the beer containing the sleeping drug to the deceased? MR DOS SANTOS No. MS VAN DER WALT But you know about it? MR DOS SANTOS Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Furthermore, you heard that it would appear as if Mr Strydom would testify about it that all the persons there on the farm on that particular day, were drinking. Did you have anything to drink at all? MR DOS SANTOS Before I worked with explosives I would not have had anything, afterwards it is possible that I may have had something to drink. MS VAN DER WALT Were you continuously present on the farm during the interrogation of Comrade? MR DOS SANTOS No, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And you state in your application on page 386, that after Comrade was placed in the hole and shot by Capt Crafford, you destroyed the body of Comrade with explosives. You have heard that evidence has been given about two explosions, what do you have to say about that? MR DOS SANTOS It is correct. MS VAN DER WALT You just did not specify this in your application. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Why did you cause the second explosion? MR DOS SANTOS There were clues which had been picked up and placed in the hole again and explosives were once again placed on this evidence and they were blown up again. MS VAN DER WALT You mentioned limpet mines during the first explosion ...(intervention) MR DOS SANTOS No, I spoke of landmines. MS VAN DER WALT I beg your pardon. What did you use during the second? MR DOS SANTOS A commercial explosive, which we as demolition explosives experts used quite often. MR MALAN I beg your pardon. You were asked what did you use afterwards, you say that afterwards you would have used Pentolite. MR DOS SANTOS I definitely used it. MR MALAN When you were asked initially by Mrs van der Walt - and I apologise for interrupting because this is a key aspect which we might as well deal with right away, when you were asked whether or not you were involved in the explosion you stated "Yes", and when you were asked what you used, you said "Two landmines". MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Then why didn't you mention what you used during the second explosion? MR DOS SANTOS I didn't think about it. MR MALAN Very well. Thank you, Mrs van der Walt. MS VAN DER WALT Just with regard to Mr Malan's question, I would like to know from you, would there have been any specific reason why you would tell the Honourable Committee that there was a second explosion if there wasn't a second explosion? MR DOS SANTOS I cannot think why. MS VAN DER WALT And then yesterday the Honourable Chairperson stated that there was evidence before this Committee that a person's body would be blown up by explosives to create the impression that he had blown himself up. What was the purpose with this explosion? Firstly with the landmines and then with the other explosives? MR DOS SANTOS To obliterate the person completely, because I used two landmines in the beginning which contained quite a lot of explosives. MS VAN DER WALT And in this case was the order not given to you to create an explosion which would make it appear that he had blown himself up? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct, there was no such order. MS VAN DER WALT You had to obliterate the body completely? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Where did you obtain the explosives from? MR DOS SANTOS From our office. We always had explosives there which we had obtained by means of arrests or caches. We used the explosives for demonstrations or tests which we conducted at the office. MS VAN DER WALT Furthermore, do you confirm the evidence of the other applicants inasfar as it has bearing on you? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And you also confirm your application as it appears in bundle 1. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Did you commit this act out of any sense of personal gain for yourself? MR DOS SANTOS No. MS VAN DER WALT Did you commit this act because you had any lust for revenge against this person called Comrade? MR DOS SANTOS No. MS VAN DER WALT You did not know him before the time? MR DOS SANTOS No. MS VAN DER WALT Did you commit this act in the course of your police duties and under the order of a higher officer? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Therefore you request amnesty for any offence or delict which may emanate from the death of Comrade? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Nothing further, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms van der Walt. Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN No questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo? ADV PRINSLOO No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT No questions, thank you Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Mr van Heerden? MR VAN HEERDEN No questions, thank you Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No questions, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN Chairperson - I have a number of questions for you Mr Dos Santos. You confirm the content of your application, but if I understand you correctly, you state that you did not have the knowledge which you state in your statement, you did not know about the details of your application from paragraph 1 leading up to at least paragraph 6, because you were not directly involved. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN Then let me put it as such, so that we can have clarity about this between each other. It became the practice that when there were more than one applicant who was being represented by the same legal representative, the statements would appear in the same written form, with the same choice of words, but that the details would differ from person to person. That is the case here. There are many persons who are applying with the same words. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN You confirm the correctness of this statement. Now I want to know from you, do you have any knowledge of the content of paragraph 1 on page 383, any personal knowledge of what appears there? MR DOS SANTOS Only what I was told. MR MALAN When were you told this, Mr Dos Santos and by whom? MR DOS SANTOS I cannot recall precisely. I would have been informed by Capt Crafford and Capt Prinsloo. MR MALAN Let me just repeat this before you answer, because I just want an honest answer from you because I want to know what information was at your disposal. And I will repeat that I understand that the application was drawn up, it is one application which has appeared in the names of there persons. It is not information which was shared by all three persons, you have just confirmed this. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN So some of the information was presented because it related the entire story and you signed it, but you did not have knowledge of some of this information? MR DOS SANTOS Not personal knowledge. MR MALAN And some of this information was not conveyed to you by Capt Crafford or Capt Prinsloo, it simply emanated in the compilation of your application. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Now what I want to know is, which aspects of this information was part of your personal knowledge or not. I will repeat the question because I do not wish to trick you, I just want to know honestly what you know. And I will not blame you if you confirm something that you didn't really know. MR DOS SANTOS It is difficult to remember, Chairperson. I was informed about Wachthuis, but I didn't have personal knowledge of all the details about it. MR MALAN Yes, Mr Dos Santos, you were also not informed about some of these aspects by Mr Prinsloo or Mr Crafford. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN It was only via your legal representatives who inserted this during the composition of your application, because they had obtained the information from Crafford and Prinsloo at that stage. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Then I will begin again. I will deal with the content without referring to the document. When you applied or when this incident took place, did you know that Kenny More was handling the informer? You didn't know that at that stage? MR DOS SANTOS I don't believe so. MR MALAN That's correct, you didn't know. You didn't know that the man had received instant training and that he was trained in explosives and AK47s. MR DOS SANTOS No. MR MALAN You didn't know that he was acting as a courier, you were not on the farm during the interrogation and during the assault and you were not involved in these actions, you were called in to destroy a body. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN And in your evidence-in-chief upon a question from your own legal representative, when you she asked you about information, you said that this took place on a need-to-know basis. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN You didn't have lectures, you were not informed on a daily basis of everything that had come to knowledge. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Therefore you didn't know about Kubuza and that he was acting as courier between him and an MK unit? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN You didn't know that he was recruiting new members. MR DOS SANTOS No. MR MALAN You didn't know that he had reconnoitred Wachthuis and that he had set up sketch plans. MR DOS SANTOS No. MR MALAN And that this was never conveyed to you. MR DOS SANTOS I was simply told that they had planned an attack on Wachthuis. MR MALAN When were you informed about this? MR DOS SANTOS I cannot say. MR MALAN Before you killed him or afterwards? MR DOS SANTOS I think it may have been before the time. MR MALAN You think it was before the time, but you are not certain. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Very well. So if you say that he confirmed all the information that you had about him in paragraph 5, it is simply a reiteration of Prinsloo and Crafford's statements because you don't really know anything about that. MR DOS SANTOS Correct. MR MALAN You didn't know that he posed a veritable threat in terms of that information, you just knew that this man was dangerous, that you were going to kill him, you were going to drug him and then blow him up and that your job was to obtain the explosives. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Very well. You didn't know that he was not prepared to act as an informer, it was not your decision, it was the decision of Prinsloo and Crafford. MR DOS SANTOS Correct. MR MALAN You were not aware that Crafford had obtained permission from Cronje, you just got the order to destroy him. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Very well. Up to and including paragraph 7, you are confirming to us that this is not knowledge which fell within your personal knowledge, this is just something which emanated from the compilation of the affidavit. I don't have a problem with that, but my dilemma is that you are confirming something as if it was within your personal knowledge, but in actual fact it wasn't. MR DOS SANTOS Correct. MR MALAN Well let us just deal with paragraph 8 then. And this is the point from which your affidavit differs from the others and this has to do with the one or two explosions. And I will ask you once again, are you completely certain that a second explosion took place? MR DOS SANTOS Yes, I am certain of it. MR MALAN Are you completely certain that you did not bury any remains, even if they were partially buried? MR DOS SANTOS If they refer to bury, I think it may have been that as they picked up the remains with the spades and tossed the remains back into the grave, they may have been referring to that. MR MALAN But then why would you pick up pieces of flesh and toss it onto a heap and simply leave it there? MR DOS SANTOS But that is when I destroyed it with the explosives. MR MALAN Mr Dos Santos, you have heard the evidence from both More and Mathebula, who state that they did not hear an explosion, not a first nor a second, and they don't know whether or not there was one or two explosions. When they arrived at you, from that moment onwards there was not another explosion. You heard their evidence. MR DOS SANTOS That is not correct, there was definitely a second explosion. MR MALAN No, listen carefully to what I'm saying. They say that whether there was one or two explosions, they were not present during either one of the two. MR DOS SANTOS That may be so, Chairperson. MR MALAN Do you have any recollection that they were present during the explosions? MR DOS SANTOS As far as I can recall, after they returned they helped to pick up the pieces of evidence and tossed these pieces of evidence into the hole. Naturally they would have moved away because that was the custom when we were working with explosives. MR MALAN Yes, and you would have moved away as well. MR DOS SANTOS Yes, but when I commence with a detonation I would have been there alone. MR MALAN They must have heard the explosion then once the explosives were detonated. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN But their evidence is that they never heard such an explosion, that evidence was never placed in dispute, in actual fact it was confirmed that were sent away. And you heard that according to the best of Capt Prinsloo's recollection, the explosions took place before they returned. MR DOS SANTOS I cannot recall whether this was before or after. No, they returned and they assisted us with tossing the evidence into the hole. After that they departed and I destroyed the remains. MR MALAN Did you tell your legal representative that Mathebula and Matjeni were present during the second explosion? MR DOS SANTOS They were on the farm. MR MALAN Had they not been sent away to purchase goods? MR DOS SANTOS That was with the first explosion. MR MALAN And you state that after the second explosion you did not collect any evidence, you then just left things where they fell. MR DOS SANTOS Well nothing would have remained. MR MALAN Can you tell us why you have just stated that nothing would have remained? MR DOS SANTOS Because there was so little and the explosives which I used were quite powerful. MR MALAN Did you know from the beginning that you would have to conduct two explosions, was that part of your plan? MR DOS SANTOS No. MR MALAN Then why did you bring the second set of explosives with you? MR DOS SANTOS I was a demolitions expert and I also always drove around with explosives in my vehicle and sometimes it would be necessary to make use of explosives when we were clearing a scene. We always had explosives in our vehicle. MR MALAN I don't know if I've misunderstood your evidence, but when you were asked from where you obtained the explosives, you stated that you fetched it from the office. MR DOS SANTOS Yes, those were the landmines. MR MALAN And the others were in the vehicle with you? MR DOS SANTOS Yes, we always had Pentolite and other forms of explosives that we used for destroying things. We would also have explosives which had been picked up by people on their property. We had many sorts of explosives which we would make use of. MR MALAN I just wish to refer you to paragraph 10, and I also want to ask you why in your original application did you not also refer to two explosions? MR DOS SANTOS I didn't think about it. MR MALAN Just look at the third line in paragraph 10, why did you state expressly "More, Mathebula and Matjeni were not present during the killing and desecration of the body." MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN But you have just told me that they were there when you blew up the last remains, as I can recall it. Now would you like to make up your mind and tell us. Can you recall that they were there or can you not recall that they were there? MR DOS SANTOS During the first explosion they were not present. MR MALAN And are you now certain that they were present during the second explosion? MR DOS SANTOS They must have been there. MR MALAN No, I'm not asking you if they must have been there. MR DOS SANTOS I'm certain that they were there. MR MALAN Therefore your statement that they were not present during the destruction of the body is not entirely put to us in clarity, because they then further destroyed an already desecrated body. MR DOS SANTOS Well there really wasn't much of a body left to destroy, only a few remains. MR MALAN Paragraph 11 then. Did you state that or is this something which was inserted with the composition of your statement? Did Crafford tell you specifically that he had informed Cronje after the time? MR DOS SANTOS No. MR MALAN He didn't tell you this? MR DOS SANTOS No. MR MALAN Because it wasn't the custom to report back to a subordinate officer. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Well then if we return to your application, then the only aspects of which you really had any personal knowledge would be paragraph 8, 9 and a section of 10. Of the others you don't really have any personal knowledge. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN And in fact paragraph 11 is incorrect, it is false, because you were never informed. MR DOS SANTOS No, I was not informed. MR MALAN Now Mr Dos Santos really, I just want to ask you, this is a process during which people come to say what they have done and what they know and one would expect that you would be honest with the Committee and simply tell us what you know. And if there is anything that you wish to clarify, emanating from my questions, you should best take this up with your legal representatives and come clean. Please do not confirm things to us which you don't really know. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you wish to respond to that, Mr Dos Santos. MR DOS SANTOS Nothing, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Malan. Mr Motata? I note that Mr Jansen wants to say something. MR JANSEN Yes, sorry Chair, I know I didn't have any questions when it was my turn, but I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Can I allow Mr Motata to ask questions if he has any, then give you an opportunity if you so wish? MR JANSEN Yes, certainly, thanks. CHAIRPERSON To ask one or two questions. MR JANSEN Yes, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata, do you have any questions? ADV MOTATA Just one, Madam Chair. Mr Dos Santos, for how long were you at this farm near Rust-de-winter before the destruction of the body? MR DOS SANTOS It was on that day when it took place. ADV MOTATA In other words, only one day. MR DOS SANTOS I had visited the farm on a previous occasion as well. ADV MOTATA How many days had you spent there? MR DOS SANTOS If I recall correctly, I had been there twice. ADV MOTATA Twice. Thank you, Madam Chair, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN Yes, thank you Chair. With your permission, may I just ask some questions about this issue of the presence of Mr Matjeni at the second explosion? I hadn't picked it up in his viva voce evidence. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it wasn't that clear. I will allow you to ask that question. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN Thank you, Chair. Mr Dos Santos, could you perhaps assist us regarding when you recalled this second explosion again? MR DOS SANTOS I'm aware of the second explosion, I've always been aware of it, it is just that I did not set it out that clearly in my application. MR JANSEN Thus, according to you it is a faulty omission from your application? MR DOS SANTOS That would be correct. MR JANSEN You would agree with me that the most important reason why More, Mathebula and Matjeni were sent away was precisely that they would not be eye witnesses to the explosions and the desecration of the body. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR JANSEN Can you recall where this farm was situated and where the shop was to which you had been sent? MR DOS SANTOS No. MR JANSEN Matjeni's recollection is that the shop was situated quite a distance away from the farm. MR DOS SANTOS I don't know. MR JANSEN You are also aware of Matjeni's version that he was not at all present during any explosion and that he had not heard any explosion either. MR DOS SANTOS Yes, I am aware of it. MR JANSEN Can you think of any reason on earth which would indicate why he would be lying about it? MR DOS SANTOS I don't know. MR JANSEN Therefore you say that he is mistaken if he states that. MR DOS SANTOS As far as my recollection goes, they, or some of them were present at the scene. I cannot say whether he was present, but some of them were there. MR JANSEN Yes, but there is quite a large difference. Can you recall which other persons were present on the farm? MR DOS SANTOS Capt Crafford, Capt Prinsloo, me, Sgt Bester. MR JANSEN You were on that farm for a number of days, or at least the other members had been there for several days. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct, Chairperson. MR JANSEN Were you only there on that day? MR DOS SANTOS The second time on that day, yes. MR JANSEN I don't understand. Was it the second time that day or was it your second time there on the farm? MR DOS SANTOS My second time there on the farm. MR JANSEN So you have Matjeni, Mathebula and the others on the farm on the previous occasion that you had been there. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR JANSEN Would you not be prepared to concede that it is a possible faulty reconstruction of yours to say that Mathebula and Matjeni and the others were there during the second explosion? MR DOS SANTOS Yes, that may also be possible. MR JANSEN Thank you, Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Jansen. Mr Dos Santos, how soon after the first explosion had taken place did the second one occur? In terms of minutes? MR DOS SANTOS Approximately half an hour. CHAIRPERSON And approximately how long after the first explosion had taken place, did you observe Mr Matjeni, Mr More and Mr Mathebula on the farm? MR DOS SANTOS I think it took place while we were looking for remains after the first explosion. That is when they arrived there. That is according to what I can recall. CHAIRPERSON Who gave you authority to cause the second explosion? MR DOS SANTOS I cannot recall precisely, it is simply a decision which was taken there. CHAIRPERSON Was this a decision which had been taken prior to the first explosion? MR DOS SANTOS No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So it was the decision that was taken after the first explosion? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What was the reason for making that decision after the first explosion? MR DOS SANTOS In order to obliterate all clues completely. CHAIRPERSON Were you aware of the reason advanced, or were you aware why Mr Matjeni, Mr More and Mr Mathebula had initially been sent away to the shops to buy some items? MR DOS SANTOS I assume that they were not present with the first explosion, with the destruction. CHAIRPERSON I know that, I want to know if you were aware of the reason why they had been sent away from the farm. MR DOS SANTOS According to me it was so that they would not be present. CHAIRPERSON Was this explained to you by Mr Prinsloo? MR DOS SANTOS No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now what was the basis of your assumption? MR DOS SANTOS That they were not present, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That they had been sent away in order not to be present. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now on what did you base that assumption? MR DOS SANTOS I don't understand the question. CHAIRPERSON Let's come back again to my initial question. Did you know why Mr Matjeni and Mr Mathebula and More had to go to the shops? MR DOS SANTOS I knew that they had been sent to the shops and I assumed that it would be so that they would not be present when we were busy with the destruction of the body. CHAIRPERSON Why did you think it was important for them not to be present when you were busy with the destruction of the body? MR DOS SANTOS Probably so that there would be fewer witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Yes. So this is what you assumed at the time when they were sent away to the shops? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now when you caused the second explosion in their presence, why did you do that? Bearing in mind that this is what you had already assumed why initially they had been sent away to the shops. MR DOS SANTOS I assumed that they knew what was going on and that it didn't make a difference anymore. CHAIRPERSON Now at which stage did you assume that it no longer mattered whether they had to be around or not? Because I thought I understood your evidence to say that you assumed that they had to be away because they didn't need to witness what you were going to do in the destruction of Mr Lubane's body. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now when did you then start believing that it didn't matter whether they were around or not? MR DOS SANTOS When they returned and we were still busy. They saw us in the veld. That is my only response, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was this after you had been given authority to cause the second explosion? MR DOS SANTOS I wouldn't say that there was authorisation. After the first explosion we searched the area for clues and I think it was during that process that they arrived and assisted with this. That is when I once again placed explosives on the remains and destroyed the remaining remains, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So the second explosion occurred at nobody's authorisation, you used your own initiative. Is that what you are saying? MR DOS SANTOS No, the person in command would have authorised it. I cannot say that he specifically gave me that order. The order was for use to search for evidence and to destroy the evidence, so inherently it was actually an order. CHAIRPERSON You have read the affidavit of the other applicants in relation to this incident, is it not so, Mr Dos Santos? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You are aware of the affidavit of Mr Strydom, amongst others. MR DOS SANTOS Yes, I am aware. CHAIRPERSON You are aware that he refers to the explosion wherein two landmines were used in order to destroy the remains of Mr Lubane. That's on page 415. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And that he says that immediately thereafter the grave was filled and that you left after the grave had been filled up. You are aware of that? MR DOS SANTOS I see it now, but it is not correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You say this is not correct? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MALAN Just following from these questions. You say that after the first explosion you searched for remains. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN And you also participated in this search? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Why were you searching for remains? MR DOS SANTOS In order to remove all evidence. MR MALAN And then you said that after the first explosion the decision was taken to launch a second explosion. This was not part of the prior planning? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. Perhaps I could just put it as such, if with the first explosion we had not found any remains, we would not have conducted the second explosion. MR MALAN Or if it was so small that you could simply have buried it, you would simply have done so? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN In either event there was not many remains. Can you recall for how long you searched for remains in the area? MR DOS SANTOS It was not long. MR MALAN Very well. And when you decided to conduct this second explosion you had to fetch the explosives which you had in your vehicle, I would assume. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Then you had to return to the house to fetch the explosives. MR DOS SANTOS I would have to fetch the explosives in the car. MR MALAN Yes, but the car wouldn't be near the quarry, it would be near the house. MR DOS SANTOS Yes. I think I moved it closer to where we were, if I can recall correctly. MR MALAN So that you wouldn't have to carry the landmines all the way, or why? MR DOS SANTOS That would be the reason. MR MALAN But you would in either event have gone to the vehicle? MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR JANSEN Do you think that you moved the vehicle closer to the quarry or is it in actual fact the case? I don't wish to create any further problems for you than what I have already created. MR DOS SANTOS Chairperson, as far as I can recall I would have drawn the vehicle closer. It is not that I am trying to tell lies. MR MALAN Yes, I know, but I am not certain of what is in your memory and what are constructs. As far as you can recall, these are constructs. But let us not dispute this. You can recall that you returned to the vehicle to obtain the other explosives for the second explosion. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. MR MALAN Can you recall who instructed you to conduct a second explosion? Was it Prinsloo, Crafford or was this your initiative? MR DOS SANTOS I cannot recall. MR MALAN And you cannot recall that they asked you specifically whether you had any more explosives to conduct the second explosion with? MR DOS SANTOS No. MR MALAN But you are certain that there was a second explosion. MR DOS SANTOS Yes, I'm completely certain of that. MR MALAN Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Emanating from that, Mr Dos Santos, do I understand you to say that a person in command would have authorised the second explosion? You've already testified to that effect and what I want to know is, the person in command would have been Crafford, as opposed to Mr Prinsloo, is it not so? MR DOS SANTOS The senior person on the scene was Capt Crafford. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now when you in your evidence say that a person in command would have authorised the second explosion, who are you referring to, Mr Crafford or Mr Prinsloo? MR DOS SANTOS Probably Capt Crafford then. CHAIRPERSON Yes. He had been the one to give you the initial order for this - he gave you the order for the first explosion. MR DOS SANTOS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you wish to conduct any re-examination, Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Dos Santos, you are excused as a witness. MR DOS SANTOS Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I think this would be an appropriate time to have the tea adjournment for 10 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We have been advised in chambers that Mr du Plessis would like to call Oom Struis as the next applicant to be heard. MR DU PLESSIS I think Brig Cronje first and then ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Oom Struis next. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Madam Chair. May I call Brig Cronje please.