amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-09 PRETORIA 17 THABELO JOHANNES MBELO AM3785/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53867&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110212_pre_991109pt.htm ON RESUMPTION MR STEENKAMP Madam Chair, if I may be allowed to interrupt just quickly? Madam Chair, Mr Ramawele is present here, he is representing Mr Nofomela. Just for the record purposes Madam Chair, I've handed the full set of the documents in relation to this hearing to Mr Ramawele for preparation. I've also handed him a transcript of the evidence that was led where there was reference to this matter by the testimony of Mr Nofomela. That's as far as I can take it. Thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ramawele, is it correct that you'll be representing Mr Nofomela in relation to this incident being the killing of Mr Mngomezulu? MR RAMAWELE Thanks Chair, yes I confirm that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WILLIAMS Madam Chair, I can just state that I've been requested to lead Mr Mbelo next. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WILLIAMS I think the idea would have been for Mr Schoon's evidence to be led and thereafter Mr Beeslaar but I think both the counsel requested that someone else be led before the two of them? CHAIRPERSON And you've acceded to their request? MR WILLIAMS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed to lead Mr Mbelo. MR WILLIAMS Thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON What language would he be testifying in? MR WILLIAMS Tswana. THAPELO JOHANNES MBELO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS Thank you Madam Chair. Madam Chair, before I start I just want to point out to the Committee that the wrong affidavit was inserted in this bundle of documents. I believe it was inadvertently put in here by the evidence leader. I've pointed that out to the evidence analyst and I believe that everyone here is sitting with the correct supplementary affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Yes we do have the correct affidavit. MR WILLIAMS Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Mbelo, do you confirm that you apply for amnesty with regard to this Mngomezulu incident? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Do you confirm your application contained on pages 51 to page 59 as well as the supplementary affidavit? MR MBELO I do Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Now Mr Mbelo, I want to ask you, before you filled in your application for amnesty did you discuss this particular incident with any of the people that were involved in this incident? MR MBELO No Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Do you know of anyone that was charged with the murder of Mr Mngomezulu? MR MBELO No Chairperson, I know nobody who was charged. MR WILLIAMS Did you ever testify about this particular incident before any committee or before any court? MR MBELO No Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Now Mr Mbelo, do you have a very clear recollection of the events pertaining to this matter? CHAIRPERSON They have a problem. MR MBELO My recollection is not that clear Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Now Mr Mbelo, I see in your supplementary affidavit you state that Warrant Officer Nortje was also involved in this incident but it seems from the statements and the testimony of the other applicants here that he was in fact not involved. Would you accept that he was not involved in this incident? MR MBELO I do, Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Can you explain to the Committee why you included his name in your statement? MR MBELO I was not able to remember at this instant correctly and the first name that came to my mind was this person because I worked with him for many years. MR WILLIAMS But do you accept that you are wrong with regard to him? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS You also state in your supplementary statement that this incident occurred during the course of 1985 but you've seen the application of someone else who said that this couldn't have occurred in 1985 and in fact it occurred in 1986. Would you concede that you could be making a mistake with regard to the date as well? MR MBELO Correct Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Now Mr Mbelo, from your application it is clear that after Mr Mngomezulu was abducted that he was only taken to one house or to one base and he was interrogated and assaulted there but it seems from the testimony of the other applicants and also from their statements that he was in fact taken to two houses or to two places where he was interrogated and assaulted. What did your response be with regard to that? MR MBELO I would not dispute the statement of other applicants as I've already stated that my recollection was not clear in this regard. MR WILLIAMS So would you then concede that it is possible or in fact that Mr Mngomezulu was in fact taken to two places where he was interrogated? MR MBELO I would not dispute that, Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Did you personally participate in the kidnapping of Mr Mngomezulu? MR MBELO I did Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS In paragraph 15 of your affidavit you state that yourself, Mr Nofomela, Warrant Officer Koole, Moses Nsimande travelled with a kombi to Swaziland. Would you accept that other people were also with when you went to Swaziland to capture Mr Mngomezulu? MR MBELO I would agree Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS In fact in paragraph 12 of your statement you say that these gentlemen and some other members whose names escape you were with but it isn't very clear that these other people were also with when the actual abduction took place but you confirm that they could have been with? MR MBELO I do Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Did you personally participate in the assaults on Mr Mngomezulu? MR MBELO That is correct, Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Can you explain to the Honourable Committee what was the nature of your participation? MR MBELO I slapped him with an open hand on the chest and at the back. MR WILLIAMS Can you also explain to the Committee where did you assault him, not relative to his body but in which vicinity, in which place did you assault him? MR MBELO We started assaulting him when we abducted him at his house because he didn't want to go with us and then again at the house where he was interrogated. MR WILLIAMS It seems also that it is clear that you don't have a recollection that he was in fact assaulted at two different places, the one being the house at Piet Retief and the other one being a farm, Leeuspoort I think. Is it possible that you could have participated in the assaults at both houses or at both places? MR MBELO That is possible, Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Now did you use any weapons to assault Mr Mngomezulu? MR MBELO No Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS We've heard testimony that inter alia a wet bag was used, a stick was used and a baton was used to assault Mr Mngomezulu. Do you have any recollection of this? MR MBELO Yes I know about the wet bag but I don't about the stick and the baton, I'm not able to remember the two. MR WILLIAMS But is it possible that he could have been assaulted with these weapons but that you simply can't remember or recall this? MR MBELO It is possible that those things were used but not in my presence. MR WILLIAMS Was Mr Mngomezulu ever blindfolded in your presence? MR MBELO We blindfolded him at the time when we abducted him at his house in Swaziland. MR WILLIAMS And at the places where he was assaulted did Mr de Kock ever arrive there according to you, or according to your recollection? MR MBELO Not in my recollection, Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Can you tell the Committee how did you get involved in this particular mission? MR MBELO I was one of the members who were deployed together with the group which went to Eastern Transvaal, that is in Mpumalanga area. I was one of the co-workers. MR WILLIAMS Did anyone give you this instruction to go and abduct Mr Mngomezulu? MR MBELO Our commander is the one who instructed us to do that. MR WILLIAMS And you accept that your immediate commander wasn't Warrant Officer Nortje but in fact Mr Paul van Dyk? CHAIRPERSON Won't you allow him to, without putting words into his mouth, ask him who is commander was? That's not common cause. MR WILLIAMS Sorry, sorry. Yes, can you just tell - thank you Madam Chair. Can you tell the Committee who your commander was, who your immediate commander was? MR MBELO According to the testimony I heard this morning, it is Paul van Dyk. CHAIRPERSON We don't want you to answer a question on the basis of the evidence you've heard this morning, we want to know who was your commander, that's something within your personal knowledge, it resides with you it's not dependant on the evidence you've heard? MR MBELO As I've already stated I forgot who was my commander. MR WILLIAMS If someone testified here before this Committee that he in fact gave the order that you should participate in this mission would you deny or dispute that? MR MBELO I would not dispute that fact, Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS In your statement you also said that and I think you seem to be the only one who states that Mr Mngomezulu was placed in cast iron chains. Can you enlighten the Committee more about this? MR MBELO From the house where we found him or at the place where he was interrogated he was leg cuffed with the chains which are used to ordinarily used when prisoners are taken to court. MR WILLIAMS Could Mr Mngomezulu move freely from one place to another place or even to the toilet for that matter? MR MBELO No person was able to do that, he could only do that with an assistance from another person. MR WILLIAMS And according to your recollection how many days did you spend in the presence of Mr Mngomezulu? MR MBELO According to my recollection it may be two to three days. MR WILLIAMS Were you present when he was eventually killed? MR MBELO No Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Did you know that there were plans or was it ever discussed in your presence that there were plans to kill Mr Mngomezulu? MR MBELO No Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Now Mr Mbelo, you've been before this incident, you've been based at Vlakplaas for a few years and based on your experience did you subjective foresee the possibility that if a captured person did not co-operate to the satisfaction of the handlers or the people who were in charge of the scene, then under those circumstances he could be killed? MR MBELO Correct Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS And did you in fact foresee the possibility that that could not be excluded in this particular instance? MR MBELO Correct Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS And is it correct that you're then also amending application to apply for murder for this particular incident? MR MBELO I make an application for abduction and for assault. MR WILLIAMS Now Mr Mbelo, the Committee understand that you were not present when Mr Mngomezulu was killed or that you had no part in the discussions when the plans to kill him, the Committee understand that and maybe it's purely a matter or technical legal argument at the end of the day but is it correct that you're also applying for murder just to cover you in the event of future or things which can happen in future? MR MBELO Correct Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Did you ever receive any money for this particular incident or any reward? MR MBELO No Chairperson. MR WILLIAMS Thank you Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Williams. Mr Hattingh? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mbelo, you gave evidence against Mr de Kock at his criminal trial, is that correct? MR MBELO That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH That was in connection with the Maponya incident, correct? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Now at the time of the abduction of Mr Mngomezulu, Mr de Kock was your commander at Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR MBELO Correct Chairperson. MR HATTINGH He was a very dynamic and strict commander, is that correct? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Now when you were sent to the Piet Retief area was that one of your normal deployments? You went there for a period of about three weeks together with other Black members including askaris of Vlakplaas and under the command of a White policeman, is that correct? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And your recollection is a bit faulty as to whom your commander for that specific period was, you seemed to think at one stage that it was Mr Nortje but you now accept that it must have been Mr van Dyk, is that correct? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH If Mr de Kock had been present at the time when Mr Mngomezulu was abducted and interrogated no doubt he would have taken charge of the operation, not so? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you would have recalled the fact that he had been there and that he had taken charge of the operation? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You have no recollection whatsoever of Mr de Kock ever being present during the time that you were in Piet Retief in connection with the abduction of Mr Mngomezulu? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson, I don't remember. MR HATTINGH Mr Mbelo, I would just like to read to you a passage from the affidavit of Mr Mgadi at page 19 of his supplementary affidavit. Perhaps I should start at the foot of page 18, paragraph 35. He states there that the arrested person was interrogated by Van Dyk and others "I recall that Mogai was also busy with the interrogation. I thought that he was the main interrogator." Was that your impression as well? MR MBELO I don't remember clearly, Chairperson, but I would not dispute what he is saying. MR HATTINGH Now the interrogation of Mr Mngomezulu took place over a period of some days, is that correct? Two to three days it would seem? MR MBELO In terms of my recollection, Chairperson, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Were you present throughout or did you at some stage leave the room or the area where he was being interrogated? MR MBELO There are times we would leave to town and go and buy things because we were many there. MR HATTINGH When you talk about town are you referring to Piet Retief or to Josini or both? MR MBELO I'm talking about Piet Retief, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Yes and did you travel to Piet Retief by car? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH If you were told the place where Mr Mngomezulu was re-interrogated was some 20 kilometres away from Piet Retief would you agree with that? MR MBELO It is possible, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Yes, so you were away for quite a long time on occasion? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hattingh. Mr Du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY I've got no questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO I've got no questions thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel? MR NEL Thank you Chair, I've got no questions NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Ramawele? MR RAMAWELE I've got no questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE CHAIRPERSON Mr Kgasi? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KGASI Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Mbelo, I'm only interested in the time when you were told to leave. When you last saw Mr Mngomezulu what was his state? MR MBELO I don't know his state of his health but we left him alive. CHAIRPERSON Do you want to know the extent of injuries if there were any? MR KGASI Yes. CHAIRPERSON That he had sustained? MR KGASI Yes Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON When you left Mr Mbelo, was Mr Mngomezulu in a condition which you could describe as having been severely beaten? MR MBELO I did not observe the injuries when we left for the last time. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kgasi? MR KGASI So you could not say with certainty whether he suffered severe injuries as a result of the torture that was inflicted on him? MR MBELO That is correct, Chairperson, I'm not able to explain. MR KGASI And during - you have testified that you personally took part in the assault, that you slapped him with an open hand on his chest and back, is that so? MR MBELO Correct Chairperson. MR KGASI And what about the other members? MR MBELO I don't remember who did what to him during the assault, I don't remember well who did what to him. MR KGASI Now tell me Mr Mbelo, who ordered you to leave the scene where Mr Mngomezulu was interrogated? MR MBELO That is our immediate commander who was responsible at that particular time. MR KGASI And it's your testimony that you do not recall who that commander was? MR MBELO Correct, Chairperson. MR KGASI And at that time when you were ordered to leave you did not observe the state of Mr Mngomezulu? MR MBELO That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kgasi, isn't it his evidence that he could not see any obvious injuries? MR KGASI It is your honour. Out of curiosity, Mr Mbelo, was he alive, conscious or unconscious? MR MBELO We left him alive the last time when we left him. MR KGASI Thank you Mr Mbelo. Madam Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KGASI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Kgasi. Mr Steenkamp? MR STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN No questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? ADV MOTATA No questions Madam Chair, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MOTATA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbelo, you are excused as a witness. MR MBELO Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Williams, I didn't come back to you, there was nothing for you to re-examine on. MR WILLIAMS That is correct, Madam Chair. WITNESS EXCUSED