amntrans AMNESTY COMMITTEE 1999-11-12 PRETORIA 20 KIMPANI PETER MOGOAI AM3749/?? MURDER OF MNGOMEZULU MATIE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53874&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110212_pre_991112pt.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Good morning to you all. We want to convey our humble apologies for not having been able to start timeously. We had arranged that we would commence at ten o'clock, unfortunately Mr Motata was delayed in court. KIMPANI PETER MOGOAI (s.u.o.) MR MOGOAI Thank you Chairperson. MR LAMEY Madam Chair, if I may interrupt, there is a request again that the gentlemen remove their jackets for today if it is possible. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LAMEY Thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Du Plessis, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mogoai? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Yes, thank you Madam Chair. Mr Mogoai, how did it come about, please explain how did it come about that you had to go to Piet Retief? MR MOGOAI I was working at Head Office, under Stratcom Unit in the Intelligence Services, under Brig McIntyre. I don't remember the day, he called me and informed me to prepare myself for three days to four, to a week. I have been living with Mr Beeslaar. He did not tell me where we were going. CHAIRPERSON I am sorry Mr Mogoai, we are not getting any translation. INTERPRETER Apologies, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is there a technical problem? INTERPRETER It is solved, the microphone was off. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Mogoai, just go back a little bit and carry on from where you said you received an order from Brig McIntyre. Would you please continue from there? MR MOGOAI The arrangement was made that I should meet Mr Beeslaar at Wachthuis so that I would be able to live with him. I was not told where we were going. It happened on that particular day, I met Mr Beeslaar, the day which I am not able to remember, then we left. We went to Piet Retief. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. Mr Mogoai, I asked you this specifically because as it appears to me on page 40, as I read your statement, you were first contacted by Mr Beeslaar because you put that first in the paragraph and then you say afterwards, you received instructions from Brig McIntyre to go along with Beeslaar. Shall we accept that you firstly received instructions from McIntyre and then you went with Beeslaar? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And your evidence is that you drove along with Mr Beeslaar to Piet Retief? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Very well, because you have heard Mr Beeslaar's evidence that he said that as far as he can recall, he drove by himself. What do you say about that? MR MOGOAI I don't know whom I went there with, but I know that I went with Mr Beeslaar. MR DU PLESSIS Very well, can you recall anything about a rugby match that Mr Beeslaar had to go and watch? MR MOGOAI No Chairperson, I am not able to recollect that point. MR DU PLESSIS Very well, because you see Mr Beeslaar testified that when they arrived there at Piet Retief, along with Mr Pienaar and went to friends just outside Piet Retief to watch rugby before they continued onwards to Moolman, do you know anything about that? MR MOGOAI No Chairperson, I don't know anything about the rugby match. If it happened, it happened in my absence. MR DU PLESSIS Very well, Mr Mogoai. You agree with me that there is no reason why you would tell lies and there is no reason why Mr Beeslaar would tell lies, is that not so? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Therefore either you are mistaken or Mr Beeslaar is mistaken? MR MOGOAI I would not agree that one of us is making a mistake. I would say one of us is not able to recollect. MR DU PLESSIS That is what I mean, let me just put it to you as such. You understand what I mean, one of you, one of the two of your memory is failing you? Is that correct? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Very well, and do you then agree with me that it is possibly your memory and, or it is possibly Mr Beeslaar's memory failing him? MR MOGOAI I would not say it is the failure of my recollection, I remember very well that I went with him there. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. Mr Mogoai, the interrogation that had taken place at the house before he was taken to Josini dam, Mr Mngomezulu, may I just understand your evidence correctly, do you agree that he had been slapped there during that interrogation, but he was not severely assaulted there, or what do you say? MR MOGOAI I agree Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Do you also agree or do you know of Mr Beeslaar's evidence with regard to - maybe I should leave that. Madam Chair, I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Williams? MR WILLIAMS Thank you Madam Chair, I've got no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? Oh, that is your client, sorry. Mr Prinsloo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Mogoai, you have heard the evidence of Mr Pienaar as well as that of Mr van Dyk that Mr van Dyk had only called Mr Pienaar from his office to come into Moolman where the deceased had already been and was then interrogated, did you hear that? MR MOGOAI I heard that. MR PRINSLOO Do you agree with that evidence? MR MOGOAI I would not dispute nor agree with that, because I do not know when did he leave. I did not monitor his movements. MR PRINSLOO What I am putting to you is when he arrived at Moolman, that is Mr Pienaar, was the following morning, when Mr Mngomezulu, the deceased, had already been at Moolman where he had been questioned, do you agree with that? MR MOGOAI Please rephrase your question or repeat your question. MR PRINSLOO I will do that. According to Mr van Dyk as well as Mr Pienaar, Mr van Dyk contacted Mr Pienaar the following morning, the morning after the deceased had already been abducted from Swaziland and had requested Mr Pienaar to come to Moolman, in order to assist with the interrogation of the deceased. Do you understand the question now? MR MOGOAI Yes, I understand the question. According to my knowledge, I saw Mr van Dyk with Mr Pienaar on that very same day and Mr Beeslaar, but I do not remember the other person's name. That is when he - my response is over, you can continue. CHAIRPERSON Are you suggesting or are you actually saying that you saw Mr Pienaar on that day of the arrival of Mr Mngomezulu at Moolman? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO What I am putting to you is that the following morning, Mr van Dyk contacted Mr Pienaar from his office to come to Moolman. He saw him at his office and asked him to come to Moolman to assist with the interrogation. Do you agree with that? MR MOGOAI I don't have knowledge regarding that because I was not present when van Dyk went to that office. MR PRINSLOO Sir, did you see Mr Pienaar during the evening or during the day at Moolman? MR MOGOAI Your Honour, I saw him several times. I cannot be precise as to whether it was during the day or in the evening, but I saw him several times. I do not understand whether was it Moolman or not, but it was just outside Piet Retief, because I do not know that area well. I saw him timeously there. CHAIRPERSON When did you first see him? MR MOGOAI I saw him for the first time on that evening when Mr Mngomezulu arrived. CHAIRPERSON At night? MR MOGOAI Yes, it was at night. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Prinsloo. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Mogoai, your answer to the honourable Chairperson was that you could not recall whether it was during the day or in the evening, is that correct? MR MOGOAI That is correct. MR PRINSLOO It would then seem as if you are uncertain whether it was in the evening or in the day? MR MOGOAI It was in the evening, Your Honour. MR PRINSLOO I have already made the statement to you, I will continue with another aspect of Mr Schoon, that there at the farmhouse, close to Josini, he arrived there in the evening and had then interrogated the deceased, to you agree with that? MR MOGOAI I would like to make mention of this before I can respond to this question. Mr Schoon, I did not remember him at all. It is actually the first time that I can recognise him now, therefore I cannot recall as to when did he arrive there at that time. Therefore I cannot precisely say when did he arrive, because I did not recognise him and until when I saw him in these proceedings. CHAIRPERSON But do you recognise him as a person who was there at Josini? MR MOGOAI I cannot recollect seeing him anywhere before. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Prinsloo, you may proceed. MR PRINSLOO Thank you. Mr Mogoai, Mr Pienaar testified that he did not see Mr de Kock at Moolman, what is your comment? MR MOGOAI I do not know as to where was he at that time when I saw Mr de Kock, therefore I cannot dispute the fact that he did not see him. MR PRINSLOO And the same applies at the farmhouse at Josini and there Mr Pienaar also did not see Mr de Kock, do you have any comment to that? MR MOGOAI I would respond in the same manner like I did with the previous question. I saw him and the fact that I saw him, does not necessarily mean that he should have seen him as well, but I saw him. MR PRINSLOO No further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Prinsloo. Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Mogoai, I just want to put one thing to you. From your evidence I heard that you said that Mr Mngadi, my client is Mngadi, not Mogadi, but Mngadi, met you in Piet Retief on the day of your arrival there, with his kombi. I have taken that point up with Mr Mngadi, he does not dispute that, but he simply says he cannot remember that, that is the only thing I wanted to put to you. MR MOGOAI Your Honour, I will humbly say that I do not dispute that because there were two kombis and the other one was driven by Mngadi and the other one was driven by Mr Koole. Therefore I would not dispute what he is saying. There were two kombis and two different drivers. MR NEL Thank you Madam Chair, I've got nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Did you understand however, Mr Mogoai, what was being said by Mr Nel? Mr Nel says that Mngadi does not remember what you have alleged on page 40, paragraph 4, that on your arrival in Piet Retief, you accompanied Mngadi, Mbelo, Nzimande amongst others to Moolman in a kombi. MR MOGOAI Those are the people that I met for the first time when I was taken to that base. It was a caravan like house that I was taken to. Those are the people that I left with to that place. If I was in their company, then Mr Mngadi was the driver, because Mr Mbelo and Nzimande were not driving. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You are through with your questioning Mr Nel? MR NEL I am through, thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ramawele? MR RAMAWELE Just one submission. Mr Mogoai ... CHAIRPERSON We won't allow you to submit at this stage, we will allow you to ask a question. MR RAMAWELE I've got no questions then, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMAWELE CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Kgasi? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KGASI Thank you Madam. Mr Mogoai, I am only interested in the process of interrogation. You said Mr Mngomezulu was taken into a room, which was candle-lit and had two beds, is that so? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR KGASI Was it further your testimony that you were called by one white officer to come and ask questions? MR MOGOAI It was not only one person who called me, everyone kept on calling me timeously to come and interrogate. MR KGASI An impression has been created that you were the chief interrogator, is that correct? MR MOGOAI I would say that I was just called timeously, but I do did not know that that gave me status of being the main interrogator, but I do not see it that way. MR KGASI In which language then did you interrogate Mr Mngomezulu? MR MOGOAI As I have already mentioned yesterday Chairperson, I was just mumbling and mixing languages, because I did not know the Seswasi language, I was just mixing Zulu and Xhosa. I was just talking you know, the ordinary language that is spoken in townships. MR KGASI Do you know Zulu? MR MOGOAI I try, but I do not know it that well. MR KGASI What about Xhosa? MR MOGOAI I also try, but sometimes I could always use words from the language not knowing what actually they mean. MR KGASI It was your testimony that if Mr Mngomezulu's answers were not satisfactory, he would be slapped and kicked, is that so? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR KGASI Tell me Mr Mogoai, in that as you said you were just mixing Zulu and Xhosa, did your message come across to Mr Mngomezulu, your questions? MR MOGOAI Sometimes I would say that he did not understand, but I cannot be certain about that, but most of the time he was not responding. MR KGASI May it be because he did not understand your language? MR MOGOAI There is that possibility, Your Honour. MR KGASI And tell me, at that stage when you were interrogating him, was he blindfolded? MR MOGOAI Yes, he was blindfolded with a white cloth. MR KGASI As you have said earlier in your testimony that there was a time when the cloth was removed from his face, is there a possibility that he might have seen you? CHAIRPERSON There was never a time when the white cloth was removed from his face, it would fall during the assaults. MR KGASI That was a wrong choice of words, Madam, may I rephrase the question? CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may. MR KGASI Thank you. Mr Mogoai, as you have testified that during the assault, the cloth that he was blindfolded with, would sometimes fall off, is there a possibility that he might have seen you then? MR MOGOAI I would say Chairperson, that I do not think that he could have seen anyone or identified anyone, because whenever that cloth fell, he would hide his face, and he was terrified hiding his face, because he was scared of being beaten again. At that moment, the cloth would be replaced again immediately. MR KGASI Now tell me, when was the last time you saw Mr Mngomezulu? MR MOGOAI It was in the morning. MR KGASI Do you still remember his state? MR MOGOAI He seemed to be in a dizzy state, or rather, he had fainted and he was leaning against the wall and resting on the bed and he was just motionless, but just moaning. MR KGASI That morning when you last saw him, was it the very same morning when you were ordered to leave? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR KGASI Mr Mogoai, do you perhaps know the reason why you were ordered to leave? MR MOGOAI No sir. I think it was because we were not needed there any more, because they might have decided to pursue the matter in a different way regarding Mr Mngomezulu. As to whether they were going to continue with the interrogation, I did not know, but that is what I think. MR KGASI What do you mean they intended pursuing the matter in a different way? MR MOGOAI I say that they might have decided to interrogate him further, but I was not sure as to what they were going to do with him further. MR KGASI The time when you were ordered to leave, who remained behind? MR MOGOAI I did not see them well, because they were inside. The person I remember seeing is Mr Beeslaar. I was not able to identify others who were inside the house, because they were inside the house and we were outside. MR KGASI All right, thank you Madam, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KGASI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Kgasi. Mr Malan? MR MALAN Mr Mogoai, I would just like to go back to your recollection of Mr de Kock's presence. If I understand your evidence correctly, you say that Mr de Kock arrived and you saw him arriving there with his vehicle, is that correct? MR MOGOAI No Chairperson, I did not state that I saw him arriving with his car. I saw him after he had arrived, but I did not see him arriving with his car. MR MALAN And you saw him after he arrived there, but this was because you saw him on two occasions and you saw him the second time when he walked in while you were busy interrogating the deceased, the opportunity when he asked you "can you extract anything from this man", is that correct? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR MALAN Those were the only two times when you saw him? Where did you see him for the first time? Was this at Josini or was it at the place close to Piet Retief? MR MOGOAI For the first time I saw him at the place near Piet Retief. MR MALAN Very well. Did he speak to you when you saw him there for the first time? MR MOGOAI For the first time, he did not speak with us. MR MALAN And the second time, he only walked in and he asked you if there were any successes, he struck the man in his genitals and said he would be okay later to answer, and he walked away again? MR MOGOAI He arrived, then he enquired as to whether we were succeeding with the interrogation, then I informed him that we were failing. Then he said he would help Mr Mngomezulu to remember, he went near him and hit him on the genitals. MR MALAN I would just like to take you to page 41 of the Bundle, paragraph 8 of your statement. There you say "... de Kock joined us and said that Mngomezulu would be taken to another place next to the Josini dam. (You say) yourself, Chris, Koole and Mbelo then took him away." Do you see that? MR MOGOAI I do Chairperson. MR MALAN So according to your statement, it would appear that de Kock did speak to you the first time because he gave you that order? He joined you and said Mngomezulu had to be taken away? MR MOGOAI MR MALAN So how do you know it was delegated by him and why did you mention de Kock as the acting person there, is there a reason for that? MR MOGOAI I am not saying that he was speaking to me directly as a person, when he arrived, he saw that there as a confusion, then he gave an instruction that we should move there and that instruction didn't come from him directly, to me, or to that group. I am not able to remember who relayed that instructions which came from Mr de Kock to us. CHAIRPERSON May I interpose Mr Malan? If that is your version, Mr Mogoai, why then did you proceed in response to a question with regard to the instructions or orders obtained in relation to the act, offence or omission for which you seek amnesty? At paragraph 11(b), page 43 you again specifically says "the instruction to remove Mngomezulu from Piet Retief to Josini, you and you received from Mr de Kock?" MR MOGOAI Chairperson, on that point, when the instruction came to us, it did not come directly to us from the person who gave that order. It was relayed to us that a certain person says this should happen? CHAIRPERSON I understand that, but why is it reflected in your application as you having received such an instruction from de Kock if that is not what had happened? If I understand the thrust of your evidence, there hasn't been a suggestion that things were relayed by any person concerning Mr de Kock. You either observed on your own or Mr de Kock spoke to you about certain things. I haven't understood the totality of your evidence with regard to you placing Mr de Kock at the scene as having impinged upon anything having been said by a third party. It was either from your observation of Mr de Kock's presence or what Mr de Kock said to you personally at the scene. This is how I have understood the totality of your evidence in so far as Mr de Kock's presence at Moolman and Josini was concerned. MR LAMEY Chairperson, with all respect, could we just separate the situation from Moolman and Josini because we are busy with the situation at Moolman as I understand at this stage. His evidence in this regard is there are differences as to what he observed in connection with Mr de Kock in those two instances. CHAIRPERSON I don't see your problem Mr Lamey and I don't think Mr Mogoai is experiencing a problem with regard to what we are putting to him. If he is experiencing such a problem, we would appreciate if he brings us into that particular problem he is experiencing, so that we can be of assistance to him. Mr Mogoai, are you experiencing any problem with regard to what has been put to you? MR MOGOAI Yes, there is a problem as it has been explained Chairperson in regard to the instruction which came from Mr de Kock as it is explained that there is no third person. We were instructed directly by Mr de Kock as it appears on the statement. That is how I am able to explain, I have no other way to explain it. After he had arrived, there was an explanation that the confusion should cease which was happening there about the interrogation and the assault, without order. That is where he said that confusion should cease. After that, we learnt that we have been delegated that we should go to Josini. The way it is written on my statement, that is how I explain it. MR MALAN Mr Mogoai, let me just return to this, I just want to tell you and I am simply speaking out of my own impressions, I don't think that this is of the utmost relevance in terms of your own application, but it could be very important for Mr de Kock with regard to his application, and it may be that we will have to make a decision and find whether or not Mr de Kock was present. You state in your paragraph 7, and this is still at Moolman, the place which was situated near Piet Retief, that Mngomezulu refused to say anything, do you see that? MR MOGOAI Correct Chairperson, I do. MR MALAN You also told us that the first interrogation, and this is as per your viva voce evidence, it wasn't really an interrogation, it was more of an assault, which lasted for approximately 15 to 20 minutes, you had no instructions, you did not know what to ask and nobody had told you anything at that stage. You simply assaulted him? Can you recall this? MR MOGOAI I do, Chairperson. MR MALAN Very well, then you also stated in your evidence that you only saw de Kock upon two occasions, you saw him when he arrived there, but there was no conversation between you and him, can you recall that you told us this? That this was the first occasion upon which you saw him and I must also tell you that my impression of your evidence was that this took place at Josini and not near Piet Retief, but let us just accept that you intended to say that it was near Piet Retief. Can you recall that you told us that you saw him and that you didn't speak to him, nor did he speak to you? MR MOGOAI Chairperson, you have mentioned many things, so I am not able to find out where we are now. May you please rephrase your question. MR MALAN Let me just tell you something before the time. I do not want you to explain your affidavit, I want you to tell me truthfully what you recall. Do not return to what has been written and attempt to justify or explain it, I want you to tell me what you recall. I will put it to you again, you stated that you saw de Kock only upon two occasions, you saw him when he arrived and if I understood you correctly, then this would have been at Moolman, the place near Piet Retief. Can you recall that you saw him arriving there? Can you really recall this? MR MOGOAI I did not see him arriving, I saw him after he had arrived. I don't know when did he arrive, but I saw him after he had arrived. MR MALAN But then I don't understand why you needed to refer to his arrival, I must be very blunt with you about that. Of course you couldn't have seen him before his arrival, but you stated that you saw him at the place near Piet Retief, is that your evidence? MR MOGOAI I did Chairperson, I saw him. MR MALAN And did he speak to you there? MR MOGOAI No Chairperson. MR MALAN And you told us that you saw him only once at Piet Retief, did you see him more than once there or may I have misunderstood you with regard to Piet Retief? MR MOGOAI I saw de Kock, when you are a little bit outside Piet Retief, he came to the house where Mr Mngomezulu was brought to. Then for the second time, I saw him at Josini the following day, in the morning. Those are the two occasions where I saw Mr de Kock which I remember very well. MR MALAN You cannot recall that he spoke to you at the house near Piet Retief? MR MOGOAI No Chairperson. MR MALAN Very well. And then at a stage you received an order there to go to Josini, which you then carried out and you assumed that the order would have come from Mr de Kock, is that how we should understand your evidence? MR MOGOAI That is how I understood. MR MALAN You cannot recall who gave you this order? MR MOGOAI I am not able to recollect Chairperson. MR MALAN Very well. Then just to be completely certain, at Josini itself, the only occasion upon which you saw Mr de Kock there was when he walked into the room where you were with Mr Mngomezulu, there was no other occasion upon which you saw him there? MR MOGOAI Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MR MALAN Thank you Chairperson, I have nothing further. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? ADV MOTATA Thank you Madam Chair, just one. Mr Mogoai, did you see visible injuries on Mr Mngomezulu while he lay there motionless or unconscious or for instance when the white cloth fell whilst he was assaulted, could you see any visible injuries? MR MOGOAI I did see Chairperson. I saw the injuries on the face, on the hands and then on the forehead. He was swollen on the hands and even on the body. Yes, he had some injuries even on the body. ADV MOTATA Swollen eyes or a swollen eye, did you see a swollen eye? MR MOGOAI He was swollen all over the face, it is not only an eye, but the whole face was swollen. ADV MOTATA Could you attribute those injuries to any specific person who assaulted him? MR MOGOAI Yes, they were seen, that is because of the assault. ADV MOTATA Since you were all assaulting him at the same time? MR MOGOAI Please repeat your question sir? ADV MOTATA Since you all assaulted him at the same time, that is Mngomezulu? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. ADV MOTATA Now just briefly and in general, because you were directed as an interpreter to ask him questions, do you recall what you were asked to ask him? MR MOGOAI In short Chairperson, I was instructed to ask him about their discussion, his discussion with the senior officers of the PAC which he met them in Manzini. And then again as to whether does he have knowledge as to whether the PAC wanted to return to Swaziland. ADV MOTATA Thank you Madam Chair, I've got no further questions. Thank you Mr Mogoai. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mogoai, when you were instructed to put questions to Mr Mngomezulu, where were other black members? MR MOGOAI They were around there Chairperson, they were present. CHAIRPERSON I take it at that stage all of you were in that house? The people that you have mentioned, Mr Mbelo, Mr Mngadi, Moses Nzimande amongst others were with you at that time? MR MOGOAI Yes, we were all there present at that time, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And this request was conveyed to you at the house which you have described in your papers as being like a caravan type of a house, is that so? MR MOGOAI No Chairperson, at Josini. CHAIRPERSON To clear my confusion, when you first arrived in Piet Retief, did you spend the night in Piet Retief or did you leave for Josini? MR MOGOAI We left for Josini at that very same night. CHAIRPERSON Prior to your departure, was Mr van Dyk present in Piet Retief? MR MOGOAI Before we left for Josini, I do not recall whether he was there or not. I cannot verify whether he was present or not. CHAIRPERSON And to your recollection, was Mr Pienaar there before you departed for Josini? MR MOGOAI The time that you are referring to, are you referring to minutes before our departure or what, can you explain the time that you are referring to here? CHAIRPERSON Whether it be minutes before your departure, was Mr Pienaar around where you were in Piet Retief, at any given stage? MR MOGOAI I cannot recall that any more. He says that he was present that night, and he explained that Mr Mngomezulu was a PAC member, but as to whether he was there when we left, but he was present. We were there in the kombi with Mr Mngomezulu. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying he was present or not? MR MOGOAI Yes, he was present, but I do not know whether he left with us for Josini, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You got instructions to travel with Mr Beeslaar from Mr McIntyre. Did Mr McIntyre tell you who you would meet when you arrived at the place that you were to be taken to by Mr Beeslaar? MR MOGOAI No, he did not explain anything to me. He just told me that I should get in touch with Mr Beeslaar, because I would be leaving with him for a few days, but he did not give me any further details. CHAIRPERSON Did he suggest at that stage, that Mr Beeslaar would be the one to tell you what you would do on arrival at the place that you were to be taken to? MR MOGOAI He didn't explain anything Chairperson, he just said to me I am leaving with Mr Beeslaar, he didn't give me any further details as to Mr Beeslaar will give me further information or not. He just told me that I should be ready to leave with Mr Beeslaar. CHAIRPERSON When you arrived in Piet Retief, did Mr Beeslaar say to you "you are now part of this operation and you will have to participate in the interrogation"? MR MOGOAI Not at all Chairperson, he told me nothing. CHAIRPERSON Why did you then accept an order from a person that you have not been told you would be instructed by when you were requested to put questions to Mr Mngomezulu? MR MOGOAI Your Honour, as an askari I regarded all white officials as my seniors. I took instructions from all of them, because they regarded me as their subject, I had no choice. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lamey, do you wish to re-examine? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mogoai, there in Moolman you said that Mr de Kock did not speak to you directly, is that correct? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY Did you overhear him speaking? MR MOGOAI No, I didn't overhear him. MR LAMEY What is the basis for your conclusion that the instruction came from Mr de Kock that the person should be moved to Josini, why did you come to that conclusion? MR MOGOAI I assumed that he was the highest ranking officer that was present there. MR LAMEY So that is the basis for your assumption? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY Okay. CHAIRPERSON Isn't it your earlier evidence Mr Mogoai, that you were told by a third person that Mr de Kock had given such an instruction that this person must be moved to Josini? I am now getting confused with this version you are now giving? MR MOGOAI I said that Chairperson, but this question that has just emanated now, he is asking me whether did I hear or did I assume, but I am just simply trying to respond to his question. CHAIRPERSON But your evidence earlier on was that you were told by a third person that Mr de Kock had given such an instruction, it wasn't because he was the senior person there and then you assumed that because of his seniority, the instruction must have come from him? This is what you were told by somebody else? MR MOGOAI I agree with what you are saying Madam Chairperson, but it is just that Mr Lamey is just confusing me a bit now with his questions. MR LAMEY I am sorry about that, that was, my intent was actually the opposite, I will try and rephrase the question. When you received the instruction to take Mr Mngomezulu to Josini, is it your evidence that a third person conveyed this instruction, but you cannot recall who that third person was? MR MOGOAI That is correct Chairperson. MR LAMEY Did that third person say that Mr de Kock gave that instruction? MR MOGOAI I think he said that. I assume that he said that, but I cannot recall this person. MR LAMEY No, I am not talking, I am not concerned whether you recall the third person, I am just concerned if you could recall what the third person said in this regard. It brings me back to the reason, the question, the reason why you came to the conclusion that Mr de Kock gave the instruction for Mngomezulu to be removed to Josini dam. That is why I am asking the question. CHAIRPERSON Is it not going to create more confusion for him, Mr Lamey? Don't you think we have enough in relation to what you are trying to pursue further? MR MOGOAI I just want to - there must have been a reason for the conclusion or the assumption, and I just want to clarify that in re-examination Chairperson, and that is what I want to do. CHAIRPERSON Notwithstanding the evidence that is already before us with regard to another person having told him that Mr de Kock had given that kind of an order? MR LAMEY As it pleases you Chairperson, I will leave it there. Mr Mogoai, then during the examination on Mr Mngomezulu, did Mr Mngomezulu at any stage when you questioned him, indicate that he does not understand the question? MR MOGOAI No, he never told me that he does not understand. Most of the time, he was not responding to any questions put to him. MR LAMEY Was the impression by everyone present, including you, that he is not co-operative? MR MOGOAI I cannot clearly respond to that question, I cannot say that that was just the general feeling, but I myself, I noticed that he was not determined to cooperate, that is what I personally observed. MR LAMEY Okay, very well. Mr Mogoai, and then you have indicated to me, this is not following from, this is not re-examination Chairperson, it is just Mr Mogoai wants to make a personal address to the family and also the other applicants, and he has prepared something himself in this regard. Could he be afforded an opportunity to? CHAIRPERSON Yes, he is granted such an opportunity. MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson. MR MOGOAI Thank you Chairperson. I will try to use English if the Chairperson allows me to. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may proceed Mr Mogoai. MR MOGOAI Chairperson, I firstly want to emphasise my feelings in this hearing, in two phases. The first phase deals with us. By us I mean myself and my former colleagues at Vlakplaas, especially those who are present or who have been present in this hearing. My second phase will deal with my feelings towards the whole issue, towards the family. I have been saddened during this hearing to realise once more that the spirit of distrust that prevailed in Vlakplaas, is still lingering on our minds even today. Equally, I am optimistic that an anchor of reconciliation that persists here should to even further than to be reconciled with those we hurt, but should also be extended among ourselves as former colleagues. I therefore take this opportunity remorsefully to ask for forgiveness from the family of the late Mr Mngomezulu and the community at large, about my sinful and wasted years of impunity. Then lastly Madam Chair, I hope that my impression upon the Committee during my testification, was not contrary to this realisation. Thank you Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mogoai. You are excused as a witness. WITNESS EXCUSED