amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-09 JOHANNESBURG 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53878&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110812_jhb_991109jb.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Good morning. We want to start the proceedings, it is Tuesday, the 9th of November 1999. We are continuing with the amnesty application of L.E. Mohale. The panel and the appearances are as have been indicated earlier on the record. Mr Knopp, have you managed to consider your position in regard to the other possible witness? MR KNOPP Mr Chairman, I have consulted with him and decided to call him to testify. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KNOPP I would therefore request permission that the present witness, Mr Radebe, stand down for the meantime and that I be given the opportunity to call Ashley Sesing. CHAIRPERSON I assume there is no objection to that course of action? MS MTANGA No objection Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS VILAKAZI No objection. CHAIRPERSON Could you give the name of that witness Mr Knopp? MR SESING It is Ashley, A-s-h-l-e-y Sesing, S-e-s-i-n-g. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Will Mr Sesing come forward please, come and take the witness stand. Please put on the headset. Is it working? Very well. You are going to have to take the oath, so I am going to ask you to stand. Are your full names Ashley Sesing? MR SESING Yes. ASHLEY SESING (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated, thank you. Mr Knopp? EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Sesing, how old are you? MR SESING I am 30 years old. MR KNOPP Do you know the applicant in this matter, Linda Enoch Mohale? MR SESING Yes, I know him. MR KNOPP Did you grow up in the Tembisa area? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP You went to school there until standard 9? MR SESING That is correct, I attended school there. MR KNOPP And you are still residing in Tembisa? MR SESING Yes, that is correct. MR KNOPP Now, the applicant has told the Court that he went into exile in the 1980's, 1980's and he returned from exile early in 1992, did you meet the applicant in early 1992 or in 1992? MR SESING Yes, I did meet him at the beginning of 1992. MR KNOPP In 1992, were you still at school? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP Were you politically active in 1992? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP Did the applicant recruit you for training in MK? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP Did the applicant train you? MR SESING Yes, he did. MR KNOPP These operations of the MK in 1992, were they underground or not? MR SESING Yes, according to the training that I received, all the operations had to be underground operations, that is how he told me. MR KNOPP How did you know that the applicant was in the MK, number one, and number two, how did you know that he had in fact returned from exile where he had received training? MR SESING After he had recruited me, he told me that there were people who sent him to me because he did not know me and thereafter he referred me to somebody else and he said to me if I would not be able to be an MK soldier, he would send me to George. I did go to George and I enquired about the applicant and he told me that it is true. MR KNOPP Was George Bila connected to the ANC? MR SESING I beg your pardon? MR KNOPP Was George Bila connected to the ANC? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP Are you saying that George Bila confirmed what the applicant had told you? MR SESING That is correct. ADV SIBANYONI And George Bila was the applicant's brother-in-law, did you know that? MR SESING I knew that after I met George Bila, from the beginning I didn't know that he was the applicant's brother-in-law. MR LAX Just one thing, you said George Bila was, you knew him as ANC, what was he in the ANC? What was his office or position? MR SESING He was working together with SANCO at that time, while he was still a member of the ANC. But he was also the member of the TRA, he was also in the Executive of the TRA. MR LAX What is the TRA? MR SESING Tembisa Residents Association. MR KNOPP All right, I want to get to a specific, focus on a specific weapon, a certain .38 revolver which revolver was used in the shooting of the victim, Songo, Mr Songo. Just briefly, what is the origin of this weapon? MR SESING That is the weapon that we disarmed from other people in Soweto. MR KNOPP Whose property did it then become once it had been acquired from that instance in Soweto? MR SESING It did not belong to anybody, it was used by all of us. MR KNOPP Would I be correct in saying that it became part of the cache of arms of the MK? MR SESING Yes, that is correct, it became part of the weaponry that belonged to MK. MR KNOPP I want to come now to the instant of ... MR LAX Just before you do, just said all of us, who is all of us? MR SESING I refer to those people who were trained by Linda. MR LAX Yes, I want to know who they were. MR SESING It is myself and Simon. MR LAX Is that it? MR SESING There were also others who were not working with us necessarily, but we would also collect them, but the people who were using this weapon was myself, Mr Mohale and Simon. MR LAX Were you and Simon and Mr Mohale an MK unit? MR SESING That is correct, we were a unit that was trained by Mr Mohale. MR LAX Were you a Self Defence Unit or were you an MK unit? MR SESING He recruited us from the SDU, he came to me, I didn't know him, he was only referred to me and he was told to come and recruit me, and I in turn recruited Simon. MR LAX You haven't answered my question, were you a Self Defence Unit or were you an MK unit, didn't you make that distinction at all amongst yourselves? MR SESING There was no difference because when Linda recruited me, I was a member of the SDU, he gave me training and I worked with him in his operations. MR LAX Did you remain a member of your own SDU, did you carry on with patrolling duties and guard duties and so on? MR SESING That is correct. MR LAX How did you then get called on to other operations with Linda? MR SESING I have already explained that I was recruited by Mr Mohale, that is Linda. He recruited me into his unit, that is an MK unit, but at that time I was also a member of the SDU in that section where I lived, that is how I joined the MK unit. MR LAX Yes, the point that I am trying to understand is when you became a member of his unit, as you put it, did you stop being a member of the SDU and then exclusively worked with Mr Mohale or did you carry on with SDU activities and only from time to time join him in the operations? MR SESING I did not terminate my services as an SDU member, I was working on both sides. MR LAX Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Knopp? MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Sesing, some time more or less in June - sorry not June, August 1992, there was an operation concerning the victim Songo, are you familiar with that? MR SESING Yes, I do. MR KNOPP And are you familiar with that operation because you yourself were involved in it? MR SESING Yes, I know it because I was involved in that operation. Pardon me, can you please explain when you say I was involved in that operation, what do you mean by that? MR KNOPP I will get to the details presently, I am just starting off with generalities at this stage. Was this operation supposed to be an assassination on a certain person? MR SESING That is correct sir. MR KNOPP That person was the victim, Mr Songo? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP Where did the orders come from to carry out this operation? MR SESING They were from Mr Albert Tleane. MR KNOPP Can you tell the Court something about Mr Tleane, what position did he hold in society and was he considered a leader and so on? MR SESING Mr Tleane was a leader in the community, he was a member of the TRA, he was regarded as a leader in the community and that is all. MR KNOPP Was he respected, a respected community leader? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP Can you tell the Court about this operation concerning Mr Songo? MR SESING Should I start at the beginning sir? MR KNOPP Well, yes, start with the beginning but just confide your evidence to the Songo incident. MR SESING What happened with regard to Mr Songo is that my Commander, that is Linda, he was the person who used to be in contact with the Tleane and then one day he came to me and he told me about the operation that we have to undertake, although he did not give me the details about that operation. As the time went by, we had to go and fetch the car that we would use. He came to me and then we went together to Mr Tleane, from there we started with our mission, we went to Mr Songo's place, we went to see whether he was at his house. We were supposed to assassinate him that day if we had the opportunity. We failed because of the circumstances and then we left. On the second day we went back again. In all those days, I was the person who was supposed to shoot Mr Songo. On our second day, it was on Sunday, that is when we heard that he was a person that used to jog, run, so I was standing next to his gate, I was waiting for him. Unfortunately Mr Songo appeared, I saw him, when I was about to prepare myself to shoot him, I saw a lady who used to teach me at school, that is Mrs Mbethe, that is how that operation failed, because when I saw this woman, that woman would recognise me. Then we left, I went back to the car and reported that to my Commander. We left to our house. While we were at Mr Tleane's house, we also went to Linda's place, when we arrived at Mr Tleane again, he told us that the owner of the car wanted his car back and he told us to hurry with the mission so that we could return the car. The following day in the morning, we left to see Mr Songo at school. We were waiting outside, he did not appear and then we decided to enter the school waiting for Mr Songo to appear and the Commander went into the offices, trying to look for Mr Songo. By that time we thought that he was already at school. He went back, when the Commander came back, he said Mr Songo was not at school, we waited in the car and when he appeared, he went straight to the office, he went to put his books and then he came back to the gate because it appeared that his job was to monitor the school children at the gate, and then from the gate, he came to us, he talked to my Commander, he was outside the car. Then we went out of the school yard, we waited for him outside. That time the gun was with me, because I was supposed to use this gun. When Mr Songo came to us, approaching the car, I was ready to shoot him but I had a problem, I don't know what happened that moment, and then the Commander took the gun from me, and he used that gun, and then thereafter we left. We left Simon at a certain place in Sedibeng Section and then we went to Mr Tleane's place, we gave him the car and then we left together with the Commander to our hiding place. ADV SIBANYONI Did Simon also try to shoot Mr Songo? MR SESING No sir. ADV SIBANYONI While you were in the car, did Simon ever have this gun in his possession? MR SESING No sir, the gun was always with me because I was supposed to have shot Mr Songo. ADV SIBANYONI Thank you. MR KNOPP This gun that you had with you, is this the .38 revolver about which you have testified? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP The original plan was that you yourself, was supposed to do the shooting? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP The car which was used as transport in this operation, I just want to clear that up, was that acquired for you by Mr Tleane from another person? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP It was supposed to be used specifically for the operation, and afterwards returned? MR SESING Yes, that is correct. After the operation, it was supposed to have been returned to Mr Tleane, but what my Commander told me that the owner of the car was not told how this car was going to be used, he was only told that it was going to be used for the ANC activities. MR KNOPP Was there a problem with petrol for the car at any stage? MR SESING Yes, we had a problem. MR KNOPP What was the problem? MR SESING We didn't have money to buy petrol at times. MR KNOPP So, where was this money obtained from? MR SESING We were given this money by Mr Tleane. MR KNOPP Can you confirm that Tleane gave instructions for Mr Songo to be eliminated? MR SESING That is correct sir. MR KNOPP What reason was given to you why Songo should be eliminated? MR SESING I was never told the reason. MR KNOPP Did you not think of enquiring? MR SESING The person I asked was my Commander, because he asked me about Mr Songo's position in the community of Tembisa. I explained that to him, I told him that he was working together with the old apartheid councillors and thereafter I would say he is the only person whom I asked why we should eliminate Mr Songo. MR KNOPP Would it be correct to say that the old apartheid councillors were regarded as enemies of the ANC? MR SESING That is correct sir. MR KNOPP And would the enemies of the ANC would then be legitimate targets for elimination? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP I want to consider another aspect now. Mr Alli Tleane was not as far as you knew, a military functionary in the ANC? He wasn't a member of MK, he wasn't operational in MK? MR SESING According to my knowledge Mr Tleane was not a soldier, but I didn't know his influence because he was a leader in the community, so I didn't know his influence. MR KNOPP Yes, but what I am getting at, can you explain to this Committee how it is that MK members would take instructions from a community leader to assassinate somebody? MR SESING I cannot say that with certainty, because I was not one of the leaders in MK, I was only taking orders from my Commander, so I cannot say with certainty about that issue. MR KNOPP As far as you were concerned, you were taking your instructions from the applicant, Mohale? MR SESING That is correct sir. MR KNOPP Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOPP CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Knopp. Ms Vilakazi, any questions? Where is the Technician? Are you all right. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI Yes, I have a few questions. Mr Sesing, in your evidence you have indicated that you got involved with MK operations and your Commander was Mr Mohale, did I understand you well? MR SESING Yes, that is correct. MS VILAKAZI Besides Mr Mohale, did you have any other connections within the MK unit? MR SESING No, I did not. MS VILAKAZI Do you know if Mr Mohale was reporting to any person, and if so, who was he reporting to? MR SESING Myself and Mr Mohale were reporting to Mr Albert Tleane. MS VILAKAZI Were there other senior persons besides Mr Tleane that you knew of? MR SESING No, not in my unit. There was no other person that I knew except Mr Tleane. MS VILAKAZI Okay, evidence has been put before this panel that there was a ban of MK attacks in the 1990's, did you know if any ban of such a nature? MR SESING I am not sure about that, because we were also operating, I was also operating under the instructions from Mr Mohale and Mr Tleane, so I don't have facts about that. MS VILAKAZI Are you saying you don't know if there was any ban at any time of MK attacks? MR SESING I know of that ban, but I am referring to the unit I was in, but I know nationally the armed struggle was suspended. I do not know the extent of that suspension. MS VILAKAZI At the time of the attack on Mr Songo, was that ban effective? MR SESING I cannot recall clearly. MS VILAKAZI So you are not sure as to exactly when the ban was imposed? MR SESING That is correct. MS VILAKAZI I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Ms Mtanga, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Go ahead. MS MTANGA Mr Sesing, I would like you to tell us more about your first meeting with Mr Tleane, when the applicant, Mr Mohale was present, and you had these orders being given that Mr Songo must be assassinated. Can you tell us where did you meet with Mr Tleane? MR SESING We met at his place, that is when he was telling us that we were wasting time, because the owner of this car wanted his car back, and then he was telling us that we should hurry with the mission, so that we can bring the car back. MS MTANGA How many times before Mr Songo was shot, did you meet with Mr Tleane, can you recall how many times you met with him? MR SESING Before Mr Songo was shot, I think we met twice or three times. But sometimes I used to go there, but I never entered the house because I was not in a position to receive instructions from him. Sometimes I would just go there and sit outside, I would not enter the house. MS MTANGA According to the evidence of Mr Mohale, the first time you met with Mr Tleane and you were present, it was, you met with him at Tembi Shopping Centre? Do you recall meeting Mr Tleane at Tembi Shopping Centre, or do you recall meeting him at his house? MR SESING The first time that we met with Mr Tleane, it was at his place. I don't know whether I am making a mistake, but I remember that we met him the first time at his place. MS MTANGA Do you remember meeting him at Tembi Shopping Centre? MR SESING No, I have never met Mr Tleane at Tembi Shopping Centre. MS MTANGA Mr Songo was shot on the 26th of August 1992, that was on a Wednesday, do you remember how long before that day did you meet with Mr Tleane, when you got to learn about the planning to kill Mr Songo, when was that? Was it a week, was it some days, or can you remember the specific date when you met with him? MR SESING I would say it would be a week and some few days, if I remember well. MS MTANGA Can you tell us what exactly took place, what did he say to you and what was your response. I need to know the contents of that meeting, what exactly was said by Mr Tleane to yourselves? MR SESING He had already discussed many things with my Commander, what I heard at that meeting he was saying that we should hurry about this mission and we were also explaining the problems that we encountered on our mission, problems such as the petrol. Our meeting was just to remind us that we have to hurry with this mission. MS MTANGA This took place at Mr Tleane's house? MR SESING All the meetings in which I was present, took place in his house, that is Mr Tleane's house. MS MTANGA According to your evidence in court, that appears on page 44 of the judgement, from paragraph 20, you gave evidence in court that after the killing of Mr Namane, Mr George Bila was instructed by Mr Tleane to discipline the applicant who was behaving in a loose and irresponsible manner, that was the reason for him being disciplined, do you recall this evidence by yourself? MR SESING Yes, I do remember. MS MTANGA Was the applicant ever disciplined after the killing of Mr Namane as per your testimony in court? MR SESING Can you please repeat your question? MS MTANGA Was the applicant ever disciplined as I had indicated that you had said in court, Mr George Bila had to discipline the applicant acting upon instructions from Mr Tleane, that was your evidence in court, because they found his behaviour very loose and he was behaving in an irresponsible manner? MR SESING I cannot say that he was disciplined, but I told him because I was told by Mr Tleane as well that Mr Mohale kept company with people that he did not understand and some of them were from Maputo so he did not understand his company with those people. He used to go to his place with those people and then he asked me to discuss this with Mr Mohale and he also indicated that he would also tell George that he should tell the applicant that he should not come with these people at his place and his behaviour was also not satisfactory to him. I did indeed tell Mr Mohale about that. MS MTANGA Besides Mr Mohale being in the company of these people from Maputo, was there anything else that he had done which had caused him to be disciplined or required him to be disciplined? MR SESING The other thing that I was told was our regular going to Mr Tleane's place, because we were sent to kwaNdebele, while we were at kwaNdebele, sometimes we would come back to Tembisa to try to get some money, so Mr Tleane told us about that, he told that to my Commander because he was the person who was responsible for me. MS MTANGA When did you go to kwaNdebele, was it before the killing of Mr Songo or after the killing of Mr Songo? MR SESING That is after we had killed Mr Songo, that is after we had shot Mr Songo. MS MTANGA Why were you sent to kwaNdebele? MR SESING Because Mr Songo did not die and Mr Tleane thought that because Mr Songo knew Mr Mohale as somebody that once taught him, it would be easy for us to be caught by the police, so we went there to hide ourselves there. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Does the panel have any questions? ADV SIBANYONI Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. So you didn't go to kwaNdebele to hide immediately after the death of Rev Namane, but you only went after the attempted killing of Songo, is that so? MR SESING Myself and Mr Mohale, we went there after we had shot Mr Songo. ADV SIBANYONI Do you know whether Mr Mohale went to kwaNdebele to hide to the underground, after the killing of Mr Namane? MR SESING Yes, I heard that in court. ADV SIBANYONI You were not close to him during the killing of Mr Namane, him, I am referring to the applicant? MR SESING I was close to him, that is the time he was actually recruiting me into MK. ADV SIBANYONI But you were not aware that he had to go to kwaNdebele after the killing of Rev Namane? MR SESING No, I did not. I don't know whether there is something that one of us is hiding, because according to the information that I have, it is that he did not go to kwaNdebele after he had killed Mr Namane. What I know is that he went with me to kwaNdebele only after we had shot Mr Songo. ADV SIBANYONI Did you stay at Vilapi's house or at Ephraim Mogale's house when you were in kwaNdebele? MR SESING We arrived at Mr Mogale's place, but because of the circumstances at his home, we were taken to Mr Vilapi's place. I would say we were staying at those two places, sometimes we would sleep at Mr Mogale and the other times, we would sleep at Mr Vilapi's place. ADV SIBANYONI The applicant told this Committee that immediately after Mr Songo was shot, you and Simon were tossing a gun amongst the two of you, in other words there was a stage when you wanted to shoot Songo and there was a stage where Simon also wanted to shoot Mr Songo. MR LAX Sorry, you just said immediately after, in fact you mean immediately before? ADV SIBANYONI Thank you, thank you Mr Lax. The applicant told this Committee that immediately before Mr Songo was shot, you and Simon were tossing a gun amongst each other and it is when the applicant decided to take the gun from you and shoot at Mr Songo, but you said something different, the gun was always in your possession. What do you say about the applicant's version that in fact you tossed the gun, you were shivering, you were hesitating to shoot? MR SESING What I said before is that I was the person who was supposed to have shot Mr Songo, so at all times when we go out for that operation, the gun would always be with me. That day when he took the gun from me to shoot Mr Songo, the gun was with me. I never gave this gun to Simon. ADV SIBANYONI And then you also said yourself and the applicant were always reporting to Mr Tleane, was there no stage where you were reporting to Mr Thwala or Mr Radebe? MR SESING No. ADV SIBANYONI The activities, I am referring now to the activities of the unit, were they only in relation to Songo or did you have any other activities as a unit? MR SESING We had other activities, we were involved in the campaign called "Disarm the Enemy and Arm the People", sometimes we would disarm policemen and then take their guns and give them to the unit, that is Self Defence Unit. That is why I said I was working as ... (tape ends) ... ADV SIBANYONI ... to eliminate Mr Namane, you were not part of that, you were not involved? MR SESING I was not part of that operation. I was not supposed to have gone to shoot him, but I remember one day I was with him, that is Mr Tleane and Mr Mohale, that is when Mr Tleane was reminding him about that operation, that is before Mr Namane was shot, that is why Mr Tleane was reminding him that he would not forget about that operation. ADV SIBANYONI The applicant told this Committee that in so far as the killing of Namane was concerned, the order came from Mr Thwala or in other words, he is not involving Tleane in the killing of Namane, what do you say about that? MR SESING Where he got the order, I cannot say that with certainty, but the only thing that I remember is that he was reminded by Mr Tleane, so I don't know the dealings of Mr Tleane and Mr Radebe. The only thing that I know, I know our dealings with Mr Tleane. ADV SIBANYONI Did your MK unit have a specific name? MR SESING We did not have a name in our unit. ADV SIBANYONI What made your unit to stop operating, how did it come to an end? MR SESING That is when we came back from kwaNdebele, my Commander was arrested somewhere in Johannesburg for an armed robbery case, that is when we stopped carrying out such operations. But sometimes I would visit Mr Tleane and we would arrange to go and see Mr Mohale and Mr Bila at Modabi. ADV SIBANYONI Mr Radebe, that is my last question, told this Committee yesterday that each and every MK unit had a name for the purposes of keeping proper control, reporting, etc, etc. Why did your unit never have a name? MR SESING I don't know. I don't know why our unit did not have a name, the only thing that I remember was that I was recruited by Mr Mohale, maybe he knows something that I did not know then. ADV SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. What was your MK name? MR SESING I did not have a name, they referred to me as Ashley. MR LAX So you didn't choose as literally every other MK member chose, a war name, a fighting name? MR SESING We used to use one common name, that is calling each other Chief. MR LAX And within your unit, you didn't have a particular office? MR SESING No, we did not have an office. MR LAX No, no, what I mean is you didn't have a particular rank? In other words you were not for example the Political Commissar or the Treasurer or the Commander or whatever, some sort of office of that nature? MR SESING I did not have a rank, but my responsibility was to identify other members of the SDU in my section, those whom we could use in other operations if need be. My responsibility was just to identify those people that I knew that have discipline. MR LAX I just want to go back to this .38 Special and what were you actually doing in Dube at that time? MR SESING We visited one of Linda's friends, he met him in exile, I did not know him. We visited him with Linda. MR LAX Did you spend quite a lot of time travelling around the place, visiting people in other areas? MR SESING Do you mean in Soweto sir? MR LAX Well, in Soweto, in other areas? MR SESING No sir. The only places that I went with Mr Mohale to, was in Soweto and kwaNdebele. MR LAX I just want to be clear about this one thing, and this is the reference you made about Mr Tleane and the death of Mr Namane because I heard you say two different things, I am not sure whether it was just a mistake in the interpretation, or you might have made a mistake. Who reminded who about the killing of Mr Namane? MR SESING It was Mr Tleane who was reminding Mr Mohale. MR LAX And why was he reminding him about that killing? MR SESING I did not know the reason, maybe there was another operation that he was supposed to have carried out, because that day he reminded him that he should not forget about that operation. MR LAX You see when you first testified about this thing, you were saying and I thought you were saying that Mr Mohale was reminding Tleane about this matter? MR SESING No, I did not say that, maybe I made a mistake. MR LAX You don't know why Tleane was reminding Mr Mohale about this matter at all, or what the context was? MR SESING I did not know the reasons. MR LAX Do you remember why you were even at Tleane's place on that day, where this reminding happened? MR SESING I did not know why we went to Mr Tleane's place, my Commander, before he met me, he used to visit Mr Tleane, so that day we didn't go there for serious matters, we were just holding general discussions and that is when Mr Tleane reminded him about the mission. MR LAX This previous mission, not the Songo mission? MR SESING That is Mr Namane's mission. MR LAX Yes. If I listen to your evidence clearly, I haven't - it seems to me that you were not present when any direct instructions were given by Mr Tleane to Mr Mohale, regarding this matter. Have I heard correctly? MR SESING Yes, that is correct, that is what I said. I was not present when they started the planning of this operation. The only thing that I know is that I was present when he was reminded about this, but I don't know who planned this operation. MR LAX Yes. The point I am making is that Mr Tleane was concerned about getting the car back, he wanted you to hurry up so that the car could be returned to the owner, because the owner was complaining about it? MR SESING Are we talking about Mr Songo or Mr Namane? MR LAX I am talking about Mr Songo, sorry if I am confusing you. MR SESING Okay. Can you please repeat the question again? MR LAX Just so that we are clear about this, I am talking about the Songo incident and I am saying most of the time you say you sat outside, you didn't hear what happened, you didn't hear the discussions between Tleane and Mr Mohale. The only time you appear to have heard him say anything about Songo or about the Songo matter was when he was complaining about the car not coming back quickly enough and he wanted you to hurry on the operation. Is that right? MR SESING That is correct. MR LAX Your SDU that you were part of, what area was that called? MR SESING That was in Sedibeng Section. MR LAX And that is the same area that Mr Namane lived in, Rev Namane? MR SESING That is correct, he stayed at that Section. MR LAX And if I understand you correctly, you were not yet part of the unit at the time that incident took place? MR SESING I was already a member of the unit, because at Sidebeng, I think I was the first person who was recruited by Mr Mohale and my task was to recruit other people that I knew in that Section. MR LAX Did you, having been recruited, did you ever register with any MK structure and there were MK local structures all over the place, for example Mr Mohale says that Mr Radebe was the local MK Commander for that area that you were living in. Did you ever register with them, did you ever contact with them? MR SESING I never registered, can you explain when you say that Mr Radebe was a Commander of that Section I lived in, can you please explain that, I didn't understand. MR LAX Mr Radebe testified yesterday and Mr Mohale says in his own evidence that Radebe was an MK Commander, a Senior Commander in charge of a whole lot of areas, including the area of Tembisa. MR SESING That is correct. I think he was the Unit Commander, but the only person that I knew was Mr Mohale. I didn't know how they worked together with Mr Radebe. MR LAX The only thing you knew about Mr Songo was that he had contact with the Councillors? MR SESING That is correct. MR LAX And he appeared to work with them? MR SESING That is correct. MR LAX Was that a good enough reason to kill him in your own mind? MR SESING Like I have already explained, all the people who were against the ANC activities, we regarded those people as our enemies. I think it is one of the reasons why it was decided that Mr Songo should be eliminated. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you, at that stage did you know Mr Patrick Thwala? MR SESING No, I did not know Mr Thwala then. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Tabiso Radebe? MR SESING No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON At that time when all this was happening? MR SESING Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Knopp, any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Sesing, I would like to revisit this issue whether you were present when Mr Tleane either discussed a mission or gave instructions for a mission concerning Songo with the applicant, Mr Mohale. We have heard from Mohale and yourself that the Songo mission consisted of three stages. The first stage was when you went to his house, the second stage was when you tried to do the mission whilst Songo was jogging and the third and final stage was at the school. Is that correct? MR SESING That is correct sir. MR KNOPP When you and Mohale went to Mr Tleane to discuss about the mission, was that before the final stage, the school incident? MR SESING Can you please repeat that question again? MR KNOPP That contact with Mr Tleane, yourself, Mohale with Mr Tleane, was that before the shooting? MR SESING Yes, that is correct, that was before he was shot. MR KNOPP Am I correct in understanding from your evidence that Mohale was reporting back to Mr Tleane concerning the steps which had been taken already and the difficulties in carrying out the mission? MR SESING That is correct, he was reporting back to Mr Tleane. MR KNOPP And you were present when this happened? MR SESING I have explained that not at all times, because sometimes I would sit outside in the car and then sometimes I would sit with them inside the house. To enter, I would be told by my Commander, and sometimes he would tell me to remain outside. MR KNOPP Yes, but I am interested to know what happened when you were present and what you heard between Tleane and Mohale. Is there any doubt that they were discussing the mission concerning Songo? MR SESING I do not have any doubt that they were discussing the mission regarding Mr Songo, because I remember that he was reminding us about the mission, and we were also telling him about the problems that we encountered, sometimes we wouldn't have money for petrol. That is why I say I do not have any doubts, they were discussing about Mr Songo. MR KNOPP Was Songo's name specifically mentioned? MR SESING That is correct. MR KNOPP Did Mohale explain to Tleane the difficulties in killing Songo up to then, in your presence? MR SESING Mohale did not explain that to him, I also contributed. We, both of us explained that to Tleane. MR KNOPP What did you explain to Mr Tleane? MR SESING I was telling him about the problems that we had, we had to borrow money from other people, we would borrow money and say to people that we would bring back the money so that we could buy petrol. Sometimes I would be unable to go home, because we were all the time busy. In his unit, he was afraid that he would come across the police, so it was difficult for us to borrow money from other people in places where we lived, that is why we had to go back to him and explain the circumstances to him. MR KNOPP Was it not explained to Mr Tleane that you had been to his house first and you tried to intercept Songo whilst he was jogging? MR SESING We reported everything to Mr Tleane, we would tell him that we have failed because of the reasons, and we explained all those reasons to him. This is one of those things that we explained to Mr Tleane. MR KNOPP Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOPP CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Knopp. Mr Sesing, thank you very much, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR KNOPP Mr Chairman, that is the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Is that the case for the applicant? MR KNOPP That is the case for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Will Mr Radebe come back to the witness stand please? Good morning Mr Radebe. Mr Knopp, just switch off that microphone please, thank you very much. TABISO RICHARD RADEBE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Very well. Mr Knopp, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairman, I have. Mr Radebe, is it correct that in 1992 there was an MK structure in Tembisa? MR RADEBE No, maybe may we be specific, when you say MK structure, are you referring to the underground structure or the above structure? MR KNOPP Well, let's start with in a general fashion, was there any MK structure in Tembisa in 1992? MR RADEBE Yes, when I came back to Tembisa, generally throughout the country, the ANC had ordered that MK structures should be open where all MK members can go and re-register for CPR purposes and - yes, mainly for CPR purposes. MR KNOPP Was MK not meant to establish SDU units? MR RADEBE As far as I know, no, because the SDU units generally, these were structures which were formed by the Civics Organisations throughout the country, from around 1987 when the apartheid government banned the then United Democratic Front, then because of the violence in other areas, for example Duduza, people were forced to form Defence Units, so the issue of Defence Units were formed by open structures. By open structures, I am referring to those organisations which were not banned in the country. MR KNOPP Mr Chairman, I want to refer to the ANC statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission which was presented. I don't know if the panel has a copy, I am referring to page 65 of the statement. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do you want to put it to the witness? MR KNOPP Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do that, we are aware of the submission. MR KNOPP Mr Radebe, I am now referring to the ANC statement to the TRC on page 65, this deals with the period 1990, 1991 and so on and specifically to SDU's. I quote "... some members of MK military HQ, were asked to attend to issues relating to the SDU's, their organisation, training and the provision of weaponry. It was however made clear that overall control of SDU's was to remain with community structures and MK cadres were to participate as members of the community. MK command was to play a secondary role. Various clandestine units for the training and organisation of various SDU's were set up and some cadres were asked to provide weaponry where possible." MR RADEBE Yes. If you listen carefully in that statement, it states clearly that in those areas where SDU's were problematic because I think the reason why the ANC decided, the position I am putting is not an official position, but I am putting it the way I understand it as a member of the ANC, the ANC found SDU in place in most of the areas where there were violence, and that is when then the ANC decided that in those areas which had problems, MK cadres should get in and assist in training those SDU's in defence of their areas. I think that is my understanding of that document you are having. MR KNOPP Isn't that what the applicant Mohale was doing, as an MK cadre, he was establishing MK units in Tembisa? MR RADEBE MK units or SDU's? MR KNOPP SDU's. MR RADEBE As I am saying, the issue of SDU's and members of MK coming in, depended on the conditions of that area. For example if you can look, go back and look at the issue of SDU's in Tembisa, the situation was totally different from other areas where we would say MK maybe did supply weaponry. I mean there was never a situation of violence in Tembisa during those time, referring to 1992 specifically. MR KNOPP What are you saying about MK supplying weaponry? MR RADEBE I am saying - well, I am not an ANC official, I am not standing here, because that question in terms of supplying of units, I think I am not the one that is supposed to answer it, but for the purpose of clarification, I might assist that in those areas where violence was problematic, for example like Katorus, Duduza then, yes MK could have taken a decision to supply weapons in those areas, but as I am saying I am not an official of the ANC. MR KNOPP Mr Radebe, let's not beat about the bush. In Tembisa in 1992, SDU units were established, they had to get weapons from somewhere. MR RADEBE Yes. MR KNOPP They did not get those weapons from the SANDF. MR RADEBE Yes. But I don't think, because I was not party to that, I don't have knowledge of that. Sorry, I think the other thing we should be clear of is that I am not disputing that in Tembisa there were SDU or whether they were there or they were not there. What I am saying, since I was not party to the formation of SDU's in Tembisa, I don't have knowledge of any MK structures supplying units there. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe, do you dispute that the applicant was engaged in setting up and giving military training to members of Self Defence Units in Tembisa as he testified? MR RADEBE I can say I don't know. I mean he is the only one who can confirm that. CHAIRPERSON You won't dispute that? MR RADEBE No, I don't. CHAIRPERSON All right. Mr Knopp, can you carry on? MR KNOPP Thank you. Do you know Mr George Bila, brother-in-law to the applicant? MR RADEBE Yes, I know him. MR KNOPP You knew George Bila before you knew the applicant? MR RADEBE Yes, I mean as a political activist, I knew all the members in the structures, Women's League, Civic Organisations, even the ANC itself. MR KNOPP And what function or office did George Bila hold in the ANC? MR RADEBE In the ANC during those time, I don't remember him being a member of - meaning a member in the official positions. MR KNOPP Member, connected, member of MK, anything? MR RADEBE Pardon? MR KNOPP Anything, any connection? MR RADEBE In terms of MK? MR KNOPP MK or ANC? MR RADEBE No, I don't remember. I don't remember him being a member of MK. MR KNOPP Wasn't it through George Bila that you met the applicant when he returned from exile? MR RADEBE I don't know. MR KNOPP You see, that is what I am putting to you, that soon after the applicant returned from exile to Tembisa, early in 1992, he was staying with George Bila and George Bila then introduced the two of you? MR RADEBE No, that is not true. MR KNOPP I put to you further that there was a fairly close relationship between yourself and George Bila. MR RADEBE What do you mean by close relationship? MR KNOPP For instance, you often used to visit George Bila's home? MR RADEBE No, that is not true. MR KNOPP Not only you, but Mr Thwala as well? MR RADEBE I don't know for Mr Thwala, as far as I am concerned, myself, I had no relationship with George Bila. MR KNOPP George Bila's, I am putting to you that George Bila's motor vehicle would be borrowed by yourself and Patrick Thwala for ANC purposes? MR RADEBE No, I mean I have never been formally in ANC structures in Tembisa, meaning not even the underground, in relation to the Branch itself. I only joined the Branch in 1992 when I arrived. MR KNOPP I am putting to you that it was not at the registration office where you met the applicant as you testified, it was early in 1992 at George Bila's place? MR RADEBE No, that is not true. MR KNOPP My instructions are further that once the applicant had been arrested, you and George Bila went to visit him in prison? MR RADEBE No, that is not true. MR KNOPP You are denying that? MR RADEBE No, I am denying that, that is not true. MR KNOPP The applicant has testified that when he returned from exile, yourself and Patrick Thwala then gave him certain instructions and duties to perform in Tembisa, what do you say to that? MR RADEBE I mean, the way I heard the applicant, he said he arrived in the country during 1992, and I arrived in 1990. Even Pat Thwala had not yet arrived at that time, so what time is he referring to when I arrived or maybe I am mistaken. Are you saying when the applicant arrived? MR KNOPP Yes, when the applicant arrived early in 1992? MR RADEBE No, that is not true. MR KNOPP Patrick Thwala was a Commander in MK at that time? MR RADEBE Which time? MR KNOPP 1992? MR RADEBE At the ANC offices, yes, he was appointed Commander at ANC offices. MR KNOPP And you were also a Commander? MR RADEBE No. MR KNOPP What was your function in MK? MR RADEBE You mean the MK structures I was serving, I was Chief of Security and Intelligence. MR KNOPP The applicant has testified that he was issued with a weapon or weapons by yourself and Thwala? MR RADEBE No, that is not true. MR KNOPP He referred specifically to the Stechkin pistol with ammunition? MR RADEBE No, that is not true. MR LAX Did he not also refer to the AK47? MR KNOPP Sorry and the AK47? MR LAX What is your answer with regard to the AK47? MR RADEBE No. I had never given the applicant a weapon at any given stage. MR KNOPP Can you say where the applicant was supposed to have obtained these weapons from if not supplied by MK? MR RADEBE I think if everyone listened very carefully here, the applicant did state categorically here that he was capable of disarming so he might have got those weapons through disarming. MR KNOPP Are you saying he would have to commit attacks and robberies in order to obtain weapons, he wouldn't obtain them from MK? MR RADEBE No. CHAIRPERSON A Stechkin, what is the origin of that weapon? MR RADEBE A Stechkin is Russian made. CHAIRPERSON Who would he have had to disarm in order to lay his hands on a Stechkin for example, would he be able to get it from the police? MR RADEBE No, that is why I think somewhere the applicant might be trying to protect somebody, because that is why initially I wanted to know the name of his Commander, wanted to know the structure he was operating in, so somewhere he had to tell this proceedings where did he get hold of that gun. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Knopp. MR KNOPP Thank you. What do you say about the applicant's evidence that the victim, the late Rev Namane was a problem to the ANC and MK and for that reason the applicant was given instructions by yourself and Patrick Thwala to eliminate the victim? MR RADEBE Maybe to clarify things here, for example, when I heard the evidence yesterday, I heard that Rev Namane, I didn't even know about this Rev Namane. I only heard yesterday as it was said seemingly he was a member of the ANC. I mean within the ANC it is healthy to have differences because if we differ, we differ to argue in order that we must develop. If Rev Namane was the member, I wouldn't see a reason for MK to regard him as an enemy. MR LAX If I can just clarify for you, nobody said yesterday that he was a member, there was some confusion about that and I asked some questions to try and clarify that. At no stage was it said that he was actually a member, although there may have been some confusion alluding to that. MR RADEBE Okay. MR LAX So, just to clarify that. MR RADEBE Okay. MR KNOPP Can you suggest any reason why the applicant would confess to the murder and the attempted murder on the one hand, be prepared to undertake the risk of a long term of imprisonment for the offences, and then on the other hand, falsely implicate yourself and Patrick Thwala? MR RADEBE Yes, I think from what - what I say might not be factual because it is an assumption on my side, it is that during 1992, I was attending a trial and the people of Tembisa were flooding with buses to attend that trial, and that is where my profile was known in Tembisa, and that is where my position with MK was known. What I see here is that the applicant is trying to politicise the case and for him to politicise that, to say the act that he did was political, he has to find somebody strategic in the ANC, especially in the area, to say he took the instruction. That is what I think, that is my assumption because I was attending trial for the whole of 1992. That is when my political profile was known in Tembisa. MR KNOPP Mr Radebe, that would imply that he just chose you out of the blue because he saw your picture somewhere in a newspaper, on TV, and decided I will now blame this person for my acts? MR RADEBE I said that is how I assume that I was picked up for that purpose. MR KNOPP Mr Radebe, from your evidence it appears that you have been in and out prison many times? MR RADEBE Yes. MR KNOPP Can you say whether the other person mentioned in a mission by the applicant, a policeman by the name of Sithole who was in the CID, was involved in any of your cases? MR RADEBE If Mr Sithole, if I am right, is it Mr Sithole? MR KNOPP Yes. MR RADEBE If he was a CID, there is no way that he could handle my case, because my case was directly handled by the then Special Branch. The CID and the Special Branch is two totally different compartments. MR KNOPP Did you not give the applicant instructions also to eliminate Sithole? MR RADEBE No. CHAIRPERSON Do you know Sithole, who was apparently a problematical policeman? MR RADEBE In Tembisa? CHAIRPERSON Well, he had some or other contact with the activists, he seemed to have been causing some problems? MR RADEBE Yes, I know Sithole, I know almost all the police in Tembisa, as an Intelligence Officer, that was part of my duties. CHAIRPERSON Was he causing problems for the activists? MR RADEBE I don't know how that can be linked to activists, because as it said, he was in the Special Branch, in the CID department which has nothing to do with political activities. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but from your knowledge of Sithole's activities, was he a problem from the point of view of the activists? MR RADEBE No, from my knowledge no. CHAIRPERSON Mr Knopp, thank you. MR KNOPP I put to you that the applicant's killing of Rev Namane was not a personal matter, it was a matter which was, an act which was politically motivated, are you in a position to dispute that? MR RADEBE No, I am not in that position. MR KNOPP Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOPP CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Knopp. Ms Vilakazi, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI Yes, I do have questions, thank you Chairperson. Mr Radebe, in your evidence, you stated yesterday that at some stage an instruction was issued by the ANC nationally that no further attacks should take place, can you still remember that? MR RADEBE Yes. MS VILAKAZI When was that? When was that instruction issued? MR RADEBE I think immediately after the signing of the ceasefire with the government then. MS VILAKAZI Can you recall what year it was? MR RADEBE I think it is 1990, I think August, I am forgetting the dates and the months. MS VILAKAZI But you said it was in 1990? MR RADEBE Yes. MS VILAKAZI And how long did that ban last, was it ever lifted? MR RADEBE No, it lasted until MK was disbanded. MS VILAKAZI When was that? MR RADEBE In 1993. MS VILAKAZI So between 1990 and 1993, the attacks by MK operatives were banned, is that what you are saying? MR RADEBE Yes. MS VILAKAZI Can you say with certainty that no MK led operations took place during that period? MR RADEBE Yes, no, none. MS VILAKAZI None at all? MR RADEBE Sure. MS VILAKAZI Is that what you know or is that what you think? MR RADEBE It is that what I know within my units. MS VILAKAZI So you know that within your units no such attacks took place? MR RADEBE Yes. MS VILAKAZI But nationally do you know if any such attacks took place? MR RADEBE No, I don't remember of any. MS VILAKAZI Is it that you don't remember or you don't know? MR RADEBE Let me say I don't know if there were other, but officially from the MK office, I doubt there were any. MS VILAKAZI But you are not, if I understand you well, you are not in a position to say no MK operations took place in that period? You cannot say that with certainty? MR RADEBE No, I am saying that with certainty, no MK operations took place. MS VILAKAZI Well, I am putting it to you that some other applications had been made where MK operatives were involved during that period, what is your response to that? MR RADEBE My response would be that I think there were merit cases where maybe MK - let me take for example the Shell House shooting, it happened spontaneously and MK had to take responsibility in saying "yes, MK operatives did shoot" so that is how I would phrase it. In other areas, maybe for defence purposes, MK maybe were seen defending, only in defence purposes I think it might have happened. MS VILAKAZI Well, I made reference to attacks, not defences. MR RADEBE Which attacks are you referring to which was after 1990? MS VILAKAZI No, I am saying that there are applicants who have made applications, MK cadres who have made applications for attacks around that period? MR RADEBE Yes, I think if there are any, I am saying that would be up to the motivations that they would give, and they will say who issued those instructions, but from my knowledge no MK operatives carried orders from direct MK office to carry operations. MS VILAKAZI Yes, but then from what you are saying now, you cannot say with certainty that no MK operations took place in that particular period? You can only say that they were not ordered, but you cannot say that they did not take place? MR RADEBE Yes, correct. MR LAX Sorry, can I just ask a question? Are you saying that MK operations ordered by High Command or other Commanders down the line, and that these applications relate to those kinds of operations? MS VILAKAZI Yes. MR LAX Or are you saying that these are MK people who have applied for acts, omissions or offences? Do you see the difference? Are you saying these people committed these things as members of MK under due command of whatever, of MK? MS VILAKAZI That is what I am saying. MR LAX Or are you saying that they have applied for amnesty for acts they may have committed, but they just happened to be MK members, there is a difference? MS VILAKAZI No, I am talking about operations that took place under command. MR LAX No, that is fine. I just want to be clear. MS VILAKAZI Yes. Okay, let us move on to something else. You were staying in Tembisa, is that not so? MR RADEBE Yes. MS VILAKAZI What was the - and you were active in Tembisa? MR RADEBE Politically, yes. MS VILAKAZI Yes. What was the relationship between the ANC and the PAC in Tembisa? How was the relationship, let me put it that way? MR RADEBE In Tembisa, well, throughout the country maybe not separating it, there was never a formal relationship between the PAC and the ANC. In Tembisa I don't know whether the PAC did exist as an organisation, unless as individuals in Tembisa. I don't remember of PAC in Tembisa, organisationally. MS VILAKAZI So, would you say that there were no relations between the ANC and the PAC in Tembisa, whether those relations were friendly or hostile? MR RADEBE No, I cannot say. MS VILAKAZI Did you know if there were any people who belonged to the PAC in Tembisa? MR RADEBE Yes. Yes, I know a lot. MS VILAKAZI Did you know Mr Namane? MR RADEBE No. MS VILAKAZI You have never known Mr Namane, is that what you are saying? MR RADEBE I knew him as a Councillor, not as a PAC member. MS VILAKAZI You knew him as a Councillor? MR RADEBE Yes. MS VILAKAZI And what was the attitude of the ANC towards Councillors at that particular time? MR RADEBE From my memory during 1992 there were in Tembisa - the only Councillor who was active, was - no, not Mr Mteba, yes, I think it was Mr Songo who was active Councillor at that time, if I remember very well. MS VILAKAZI My question is what was the attitude of the ANC towards Councillors at that particular time? MR RADEBE Well, depending on area by area, in some areas Councillors had co-operated with the ANC and relations were built up, so in Tembisa for example, there were some relations with some Councillors. For example, Mteba was by then recruited within the ANC at that time, so the relationship was not that bitter between Councillors and the ANC. MS VILAKAZI Was the - you are saying that the relationship with Mr Mteba was a good one? MR RADEBE Yes. There was a relation with Mr Mteba. MS VILAKAZI By that, does that mean that you accepted all Councillors? MR RADEBE As I am saying, the campaign in Tembisa, it was that of recruiting Councillors back, hence I am saying the first person that I remember who was officially approached, was Mteba himself. MS VILAKAZI Is there any reason why others were not approached? MR RADEBE No, I would say maybe they were in the process, because I was not directly politically involved. I don't know how far was the process at that stage. MS VILAKAZI Okay, let us move to something else. You have denied ever giving instructions to Mr Mohale? MR RADEBE Exactly. MS VILAKAZI And you were saying, you said yesterday in your evidence that the only time you saw Mr Namane was when he registered? MR RADEBE Mr Namane? MS VILAKAZI Not Mr Namane, I beg your pardon, Mr Mohale? MR RADEBE Yes, when we were going to - all members of MK were called to come and re-register for CPR at the ANC offices. MS VILAKAZI Were you responsible for the registration? MR RADEBE No. MS VILAKAZI You were not responsible? MR RADEBE Yes. MS VILAKAZI So how did you get to know Mr Mohale then? MR RADEBE What was happening, we were called in a sort of conference room, all MK members were to report there because the then Regional Commander who is now Col Zakes, was visiting the area. We all had to go there and then we were introduced to one another, because we did not know each other as members of MK around the area. Everybody would stand up and say "I am so and so, I am so and so", that is how I knew him. MS VILAKAZI Roughly how many were you? MR RADEBE I don't remember the number, because I mean as we were being introduced, we were introducing each other, some people kept on coming in. MS VILAKAZI Yes, but just an estimate, were you more than 100 for example? MR RADEBE No, no, no. No, no. MS VILAKAZI Would you have been less than 50? MR RADEBE It would be very misleading for me to come with a figure now. I mean after such a long time, you see. I don't remember how many. CHAIRPERSON You said it was a conference room? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON That you were meeting in. MR RADEBE Yes, we were meeting inside a conference room, yes. CHAIRPERSON And was the room full? MR RADEBE No, it was not full yet, by then, it was not full. CHAIRPERSON But was it eventually full? MR RADEBE Yes, at the end it was eventually full. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS VILAKAZI And, okay, that conference room, comparing it to this room that we are in, was it bigger or smaller than this room? MR RADEBE No, it is smaller, actually maybe you can take this part, this portion, it is not a big area. MS VILAKAZI So Mr Mohale was among the first people that you met, is that what you are saying? MR RADEBE Yes, exactly. MS VILAKAZI What is it about Mr Mohale that made you to remember him? MR RADEBE I don't understand the question. MS VILAKAZI You said you remembered Mr Mohale from the people that you introduced yourself to? MR RADEBE Not only him, not only him, most of the people who arrived earlier at that place, were introduced to me. As an Intelligence Officer, I mean, for example I know a lot of people, even if I don't know their name, immediately when he appears, I can tell that this person, I am associating him with one, two, three, four. MS VILAKAZI Okay, but then you said previously that you did not know each other? MR RADEBE Yes. MS VILAKAZI So you had to introduce yourselves to one another? MR RADEBE Exactly. MS VILAKAZI Are you saying that you remember all the people that you were introduced to on that particular day? MR RADEBE Exactly, I still remember them. MS VILAKAZI And do you remember them by name, can you say that? MR RADEBE The majority of them, yes, I remember them by names. MS VILAKAZI I assume that the work that you were doing within the MK and within the ANC as an organisation, has led you to meeting a lot of people, is that not, is that correct? MR RADEBE Not meeting them directly. MS VILAKAZI But coming across a lot of people? MR RADEBE Others I know them, I know their CV. MS VILAKAZI No, I am talking about meeting people, coming across people like in this place, you would come across a number of faces. MR RADEBE Yes, but you must understand in relation to the task that I was doing, I was not meeting people physically. MS VILAKAZI So the only people that you met, were people that you worked with, is that the case? MR RADEBE Yes, exactly. MS VILAKAZI So, are you saying that you have such a good memory that you are sure that you saw Mr Mohale at that time ... MR RADEBE At the register, yes. MS VILAKAZI And at no time at all? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Ms Vilakazi had asked you earlier was there anything special about Mr Mohale that made you to still recall having met him on that particular occasion amongst these other people who were in this conference room? MR RADEBE I think almost all the people in that conference room were special, because I mean it was exciting for the first time to know each other, oh, so and so, were you also involved. Oh, you and you, so that is why you are special in that sense. CHAIRPERSON But was he more special, was there anything more special about him than the rest of all these people? MR RADEBE No. CHAIRPERSON So he was just one of a number of colleagues of yours that you were introduced to? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Vilakazi? MS VILAKAZI Well, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Does the panel have any questions? ADV SIBANYONI Mr Radebe, you say Mr Songo was involved in the Council. Did his activities clash with the operations of the ANC or the activities of the ANC? MR RADEBE No, if one can remember very well, during 1992 the ANC was not involved in things that could directly sort of make then to be in contradiction, because it was more on building organisation, more on forming projects for MK cadres who had arrived in the country. At that time, I don't think, I don't see a situation where it could have made contradictions between the ANC directly. ADV SIBANYONI You said Mr Songo was the ... MR RADEBE Councillor. ADV SIBANYONI The only Councillor who was more active, what was he doing? ADV SIBANYONI Songo? ADV SIBANYONI Yes? MR RADEBE Yes, because I mean in terms of maybe Council activities, he was involved in projects. If you remember during that time, there was this issue of building houses, the issue of - it was building houses, the issue of taxi ranks which were developed in the areas, it was more on developmental issues. ADV SIBANYONI Okay, and then was it maybe also on the question of the two-sided table, the old Councillors coming together with the new structures, the residents' organisations or you are not aware of that? MR RADEBE I don't understand you very well, can you ... ADV SIBANYONI You remember there was also a stage where the old Councillors started a process of talking to organisations? MR RADEBE Yes. ADV SIBANYONI NGO's, the residents' organisations. My question is, maybe was he also involved in that or you are not aware of that? MR RADEBE No, I am not aware then. ADV SIBANYONI Did you grow up in Tembisa? MR RADEBE Yes, I grew up in Tembisa, but most of my youth, I was more an underground activist, so I didn't grow normally, playing games and being free, moving freely in Tembisa. ADV SIBANYONI Mr Mohale says he is very much bitter in the sense that you people from the organisation, from the structure, instructed him to carry out these operations, but today you are disowning him, what do you say about that? MR RADEBE I would say in this Commission, if Mr Mohale was instructed by our structures, there would be no way that we would dispute him or reject him. I am definitely sure this hall would be full with supporters from the organisations in Tembisa. ADV SIBANYONI Is it not maybe that you are embarrassed because it is people who you are staying with like Mr Songo or Rev Namane, it is people you were staying with, now maybe you are shunting or you are afraid of standing up and owning this operations? MR RADEBE What I am trying to show here is that if any action was legitimate, irrespective of me coming here, the people of Tembisa would be here to come and support this case, to show support for the applicant. I am saying this was not the instruction of our structures, and if - there would be no reason for me to defend this case politically. I would stand here in front of this Court and motivate why the case was political. ADV SIBANYONI If you gave instructions and maybe you didn't apply for amnesty, you wouldn't come and stand up here because you would be opening up yourself to criminal prosecution? MR RADEBE I don't think I wouldn't, I would have applied because the ANC had instructed all the people who were directly involved in combat actions to make applications. It is for that matter that I did not apply, because I was only dealing with Security and Intelligence matters. When did you know for the first time that Namane was killed and there was an attempted murder on Mr Songo? MR RADEBE I think when I was in prison, the comrades who were visiting me, then they told me about these incidents. ADV SIBANYONI When was that, 1992 or later than that? MR RADEBE From 1992, I was sentenced in 1992, throughout, on a monthly basis I would be informed about the development throughout the area. ADV SIBANYONI Did you apply for amnesty for any incidents or you only received indemnity or the pardon from the previous government? MR RADEBE No, in this case, the last case, the second one, I applied for amnesty and then because they said it was only for possession, so they granted me amnesty. I did apply. ADV SIBANYONI At that time when you applied, had you already known about the Namane and the Songo incident? MR RADEBE Yes, I had already known. ADV SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. You have told us that you were Head of Intelligence and Security and as such, when you heard about these killings in your area, even though you were in prison, did you do anything about it, did you try and make sure that something got done, did you ask questions about it? MR RADEBE Well, I did ask questions, but I mean I didn't do anything about it. MR LAX What sort of questions did you ask? MR RADEBE I mean I wanted to know what was the reason, why - what was the reason. MR LAX What was the reason that you heard of? MR RADEBE Unfortunately the people who came to me, didn't have the inside information because they read it on Tembisen. MR LAX That is a newspaper in your area? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX You said earlier that you cannot deny that these killings and attempted murders may have been politically motivated? MR RADEBE Yes, I said that. MR LAX Yes. What kind of motivation could in your view, have justified those killings? MR RADEBE Because I don't know the essence of the motivations, it would be difficult for me. MR LAX Well, as an Intelligence Officer you would have known about anti-ANC operations? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Both at a physical, violent level, in other words the Security threat to the ANC and at the level of Information and Intelligence gathering about potential counter people, people who might pose a threat? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Did Namane or Songo ever come up in that kind of evaluation as possible threats, as people who may mobilise against the ANC? MR RADEBE No. MR LAX If you will just bear with me Chair, there was just one other small thing. The applicant has said that you and Mr Thwala made arrangements for him and now we have heard from Mr Sesing, Mr Sesing as well, after the Songo incident, to be sheltered or harboured in kwaMshangu? MR RADEBE What is your question? MR LAX Did you do anything of that kind? MR RADEBE No. MR LAX Did you have links with people in those areas? MR RADEBE No. MR LAX Let's assume for a moment that what the applicant says, is in fact correct and he was part of an MK structure, was it normal that people would be spurted out to another area through channels and organised that they be able to stay there, would that have been something if it was a bona fide action that might have happened? MR RADEBE Sorry can you repeat it again? MR LAX Let me try and put it a bit more simply. If this was an MK operation and people wanted to be out of the area to go to another area, would it have been organised through MK structures that somebody be kept in another place? Would that have been a normal routine sort of thing, to organise? MR RADEBE Yes, within MK yes, that would be a normal routine. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga, have you got anything? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA One question Chairperson. Mr Radebe, you were asked about the attitude of the ANC towards Councillors and your response to that was it would depend on the co-operation of the Councillors towards the ANC. You made an example of a Councillor that was co-operating with the ANC. What happened to the Councillors that were not co-operating with the ANC at that time? MR RADEBE If you heard me very well, I said this was differing depending to the areas and in Tembisa in particular, there was that process of recruiting Councillors back into the ANC. I quoted the incident of the Mayor, the then Mayor, who is this guy now, Mteba. MS MTANGA Mteba? MR RADEBE Yes, an example. Because in all the areas, they had started with the Mayors, then after that, they would go down and recruit other members. I said in Tembisa so far, I don't know how far they had gone then in terms of that process, because that was conducted within the ANC because by then I was attending a trial you see. MS MTANGA All right. So you wouldn't have known what would have been the attitude of the ANC towards Councillors like Mr Namane who was a Councillor and a PAC member? MR RADEBE No, I wouldn't know. MS MTANGA No further questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Just one more Chair, if I may. What, and I am asking you to speak from your general understanding now, you don't know how far the process went, but let's assume some Councillor refused to join the ANC and in fact began to organise against the ANC, what might happen to that person? MR RADEBE Maybe I will specifically again make reference to Tembisa because after I came back from prison, that was the only area where political engagement could be experimented. For example Mr Songo himself, had differences with the ANC, had argued with the ANC, but today as I speak, I think he is now the member of the ANC. Usually there would be persuasion, there would be continuous discussion, because if you differ, in the ANC politically, you weigh other persons and check what is his weak points, so I think the debate with that particular person would have been continuous, like as it has happened with Mr Songo. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Would it be unheard of for such a person to be even eliminated? MR RADEBE I doubt, if there were no physical threats amongst themselves. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but the point is I mean is it totally unthinkable that an obstreperous Councillor could be eliminated, was that something that would never, ever happen under the sun? MR RADEBE No. CHAIRPERSON Or is it one of the many possibilities given the situation that prevailed at that time? MR RADEBE Yes, hence I am saying during 1992, it would differ in terms of the areas. In terms of the quality of leadership you would get in that area. CHAIRPERSON But would it be something that would never ever be contemplated or is it a possibility as many other, as one of many other possibilities? MR RADEBE Yes, it is a possibility. CHAIRPERSON Given the background that we come from, we don't come from a picnic in this country? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON We had seen conflict here, it is not ... MR RADEBE Yes. I mean everything is done on chance and possibility. CHAIRPERSON Yes, all right. Thank you Mr Radebe. You are excused. MR RADEBE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We are going to take a short adjournment, we intend to finish off early today. One of the panel members has another engagement that couldn't wait for another time, so we are forced to stop earlier, and for that reason I am going to call upon you to give your co-operation. We want to adjourn and reconvene very promptly, we will take a short adjournment for 10 minutes, and then come back and we will continue. We are adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Mtanga, who is next? MS MTANGA The next witness Chairperson, is Mr Patrick Thwala. CHAIRPERSON Mr Thwala, would you come forward and take the witness stand? Just switch on your microphone Mr Thwala please, the red button. MR THWALA Qolo Patrick Thwala. QOLO PATRICK THWALA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please be seated. Yes, Ms Mtanga? EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Thwala, will you tell the Committee whether you are employed or not? MR THWALA I am employed, I am working for an East Rand waste water treatment company. MS MTANGA At the time of the death of Mr Namane, what job were you doing? MR THWALA At that time, I was in the local Branch of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, do you need that light on, that light? Please, because we have to look in that direction and it is standing right in our eyes, I see there is nothing on this side, so I don't know why there was a special reason to have a light there where we have to look all the time, it is really killing my eyes, speaking for myself, I find it very difficult with that glaring at us. If you don't need that light there, then please it would help us if you can do something about that. Yes, I will leave you to do that. Go ahead Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA You were answering my question as to what sort of a job were you doing in 1992 at the time of the death of Mr Namane? MR THWALA In 1992 I was not employed, I was in the ANC, I was coopted into the structure of the ANC on my return back from exile. From the beginning, I cannot say exactly which month, but I remember the person who was the then Secretary General of the Branch, he is a principal, he resigned, and then I was asked to step in into his position. I had been there, and then in the following year, later in the year, I subsequently became the Chairman of the Branch up to present, I am still the Chairman of the ANC Branch in Tembisa. MS MTANGA What were your duties and responsibilities when you took up as the Secretary General? MR THWALA Well, mainly dealing with organisational matters, but as well we subsequently there was a directive from our then - well, it was the higher command, which is the province, they came with a directive that there is a need for ANC Branches to set up MK structures locally to deal one, with the issue of identifying all comrades who were in exile, and specifically in MK, two, they would be then, those people, projects should be formed which would enable those comrades to generate some income, because at that time when we came in, there was that problem, and three, the issue of the negotiations which were ongoing, they were related to the question of possible integration of comrades into the higher, into the structures, which would be the SADF then and even maybe Intelligence and whatever structure which was in accordance with the training of those people, and specifically that was why the directive was issued, that every Branch should make means that the structure should be formed, and we duly did that in Tembisa. I became the interim Chairperson, and then later on, a formal structure was established and then I did not stand, because I subsequently became the Secretary General of the ANC in the local, other comrades became Commanders and so on, occupied all those positions in the MK structure locally. MS MTANGA In your handling of returnees' matters or MK matters, were you ever involved in operations that were carried out around the country or in Tembisa at that time, by MK? Were you ever involved in the operations? MR THWALA In 1990? MS MTANGA In 1992? MR THWALA MS MTANGA In your knowledge, as the person who had been working with MK's in Tembisa, were you aware of any operations that the MK's were involved in, maybe together with the SDU's, but were you aware of any operations, political operations in the country? MR THWALA Not to my knowledge. MS MTANGA When did you first meet the applicant, or do you know the applicant? MR THWALA Yes, I know the applicant. I met him during that process when they were returnees in the office, because most of the time as the Secretary General of the ANC, I was sitting in the office and even before that as an interim Chairperson of the command, of the ANC MK structure locally, I would interact with comrades and so on, and I got to know a lot of people, including him and subsequently through his brother-in-law. MS MTANGA In your affidavit, you mention something about the commanding structure, the MK commanding structure, how many people were involved or were members of this commanding structure in Tembisa? MR THWALA Commanding structure would be the Commander, the Deputy Commander, Chief of Logistics, the Political Commissar, Chief of Security and Intelligence and so on, officer, that was basically the office bearers let me put it that way of that structure, that would be the format, but it is not a fixed, but the Commander, the Deputy, the Chief of Staff and the Logistics, because he would be important in terms of projects and so on, would be there, and then other people. There was a Committee, I cannot recall whether there were 12 or 10 of those people in that structure, 8 to 12, something like that, I cannot recall. MS MTANGA Would you say in Tembisa you had about 8 to 12 people in the commanding structure? MR THWALA In the commanding structure, yes. MS MTANGA And do you recall when you first met Mr Mohale? MR THWALA No, I cannot recall, but I subsequently got to know him that he is the brother-in-law of comrade George Bila, who was the Publicity Secretary of SANCO. MS MTANGA You have heard the evidence of the applicant that you were one of the people, you and Tabiso Radebe gave him instructions to kill Mr Namane, whom you had found troublesome or obstructing the development of the ANC within the Tembisa structures, what do you say to this? MR THWALA No, I don't think that is correct. At no stage, let me put it this way, was as far as I recall, Mr Namane a threat to the ANC. In fact there was an MDM forum in Tembisa, there was the Youth, the Women, the Civic, then Civic and I think the workers and so on, everybody had their, they had those meetings. When we came in, there was this uneasy relationship between the MDM and my, when I recall there were these people who were developers, I think L.B. Mshangu, Mr Namane and others, there was a lot of saying that they were obstructing and so on, but I personally took a decision that, in discussing this with the Branch Executive, that we cannot be involved with the boycotting of other people's businesses, including the then Tembisen, the local newspaper. The ANC has to take an opportunity that is offered by the availability of that newspaper to publicise its programmes so rather than dwelling with the issues of boycotts. It was not the ANC per se that was involved, it was these other structures which had the problem with those people, because later on I subsequently gathered information that there has been a lot of uneasiness because they were competing in terms of projects that were to be implemented, because at that time, I think the business community as well as, because the Council then was not functioning, it was resolved that the Minister, I think there was a sort of an Administrator who was functioning in the Tembisa Council itself, and all the Councillors were sort of suspended, and given the problems that had been there in the past, the community and at that time, there was this person who was an Administrator, Johan Eybers, I think he is still a Councillor now, who was then running the administration of Tembisa. Then there were these projects that came through peace structures and other business and it took time to normalise the situation in townships, which came up with projects. That is when those problems started and the ANC was not involved in those things. We were not involved with projects which related to the community. MS MTANGA Is it your evidence that there were tensions in Tembisa especially against the people who were involved in projects that were developing? MR THWALA Definitely, and they themselves were also issuing threats to the very same people in those structures. There were those sort of attacks, it was a known fact in Tembisa. MR LAX Sorry, if I may interpose, you mentioned other structures competing. What were these other structures? MR THWALA The Civic and those, the Civic, there was the what is called TRA and then the Tembisa Civic Association of which the late Rev Namane belonged to. He was on the other side of the so-called progressive Civic movement. MR LAX So there was the Civic and there was a Residents Association? MR THWALA Yes. MR LAX And they were in competition with one another? MR THWALA Yes. MS MTANGA Was the ANC ever involved in trying to resolve this differences between the two Associations? MR THWALA Well, at that time when this thing started, we found them, people like myself, when I came in, it was an ongoing problem, and then there was some sort of attempt to try and resolve this matters, but there was no immediately any commitment from those people. MS MTANGA What was the relationship between the TRA and the ANC at that time? MR THWALA Because some of the comrades were in the TRA, the card carrying members of the ANC, but before there was, I think 1990, I was not around, was when the ANC was unbanned in Tembisa, there was a decision, when the ANC Branch was formed, I think subsequently there was a decision that people should not hold positions both on the ANC and the Civic. That in itself also was a problem within the very same ANC, and those comrades who were in the Civic, felt that they were being marginalised and so on. That was also that tension within, which was manageable. MS MTANGA You have mentioned that in the MK commanding structures, there were more or less 8 to 12 people working there. MR THWALA Sure. MS MTANGA And you have heard the evidence of the applicant that he knew you and Tabiso Radebe to have been the people who gave him orders ... (tape ends) ... that commanding structure, in the light of your denial, why do you think he would have specifically picked you and Tabiso Radebe as the people who gave him orders, why you? MR THWALA I do not know, you can ask him, because the problem is that at some point in time, this is something that I did not want to go into. He was becoming a problem in terms of discipline you know, locally. There were all sorts of complaints coming into our office and people were coming specifically to the office and to me because they knew me as an exile, and a senior person within the structure, to level this allegations. I was trying to show him you know, that this is putting us in a bad light as an organisation, and even as MK. He should try and mend his way, but apparently he did not want to listen and he went his way, and those people that directed him, possible to do those things that he did. ADV SIBANYONI To mend his way from doing what, what were the complaints? MR THWALA For instance, specifically there is one chap, he is a lawyer, Ogti Magunda, he apparently went into this comrade's place, pointed a gun at the family, took their younger sister, took a van and disappeared, and the comrades got hold of him, come into the office and asked him to surrender that van and so on. He promised that he would do that and he did not, he went away. Those were the sort of problems, you know. Even his brother-in-law was complaining specifically, because that is the other problem, you know, he was giving him all sorts of problems. As an activist you know, as an office bearer, he would put him, his brother, even in the organisation, in a very unfavourable state, because then there was also this sort of the police were looking for an excuse to pounce on comrades and so on. That was the sort of problems he was involved in. MS MTANGA My last question, how well did you know Mr Namane? MR THWALA Before I left the country, I was young, I left the country in 1984, 1985, and Mr Namane we worked together at 3M and I was the Organiser of the Union, he was part of the people in administration, because I was working in production, I started as a machine assembler, then I went on to quality assurance, that is a quality service department. Mr Namane and others (indistinct) and so on, people in the administration who were keen to join the struggle of the factory workers, and that is how I came to know him, we were colleagues, you know, but he was a senior to me and so on. MS MTANGA When you came back from exile, did you ever work closely with Mr Namane? MR THWALA No, as I indicated, I came in around early 1992 and during that short time, I was unable, I have not been able you know, I have never been able to discuss with him, because I also, you know I wanted to assess the situation and so on, I did not have the time to go and visit him personally and so, there was nothing to discuss with him. MS MTANGA Chairperson, that ends my chief-evidence with the witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga, Mr Knopp, questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP Mr Chairman, might I take instructions from my client on one aspect of this evidence, it comes as a bit of a surprise to me. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KNOPP Should we adjourn or ... CHAIRPERSON Is it just one issue? MR KNOPP Yes. CHAIRPERSON If we don't need to adjourn, it will assist me. Perhaps you just want to switch off your microphone first and just indicate to me if it is possible for you to deal with it from there. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR THWALA Personally? MR KNOPP Yes. MR THWALA That was done by the ANC. I was part of the ANC Executive yes, in that context, but that was not my initiative, it was a directive. MR KNOPP Yes, but you played a part in that? MR THWALA Yes, I played a part. MR KNOPP Was that in 1992? MR THWALA Yes. MR KNOPP That is the same year that the applicant returned from exile? MR THWALA I don't know when he returned from exile, but he was around. Later on I got to know him. MR KNOPP He testified he returned in early 1992, and that is when he got, you and him got to know each other. MR THWALA I don't understand you. MR KNOPP The applicant has testified that he returned from exile to Tembisa in early 1992. MR THWALA Right. MR KNOPP And that is when he met you? MR THWALA When he returned from exile, from Jan Smuts he came to me to meet me, he met me? MR KNOPP Yes, well shortly after his return. MR THWALA What is shortly? MR KNOPP I am not saying exactly from Jan Smuts, I don't even know if he came from Jan Smuts. MR THWALA Which month did he return from exile? MR KNOPP It was early in 1992. MR THWALA What is early 1992? MR KNOPP I don't know the exact month, are you disputing that he came back early in 1992? MR THWALA I am not disputing that, but I am disputing the fact that you say that he came to meet me. CHAIRPERSON I think his evidence was that soon after his return from exile, you are not sure when he returned, but soon after that, he came to know you. MR THWALA Fine. CHAIRPERSON Is it possible? MR THWALA Yes, I agree. CHAIRPERSON All right. Mr Knopp? MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairman. Was the objective of establishing an MK structure to co-ordinate the activities of MK local soldiers? MR THWALA In the three issues that I related earlier on, yes, organising them to make sure that there is a proper register of everybody, two the question of welfare is addressed through projects and other means, three, the issue of preparing for integration of all those people so that you recognise all their skills and so on, where they could fit in in the whole scheme of things. MR KNOPP Did you not meet the applicant through George Bila? MR THWALA No, I got to know subsequently that he is the brother-in-law of George Bila. MR KNOPP You see the applicant has told us that George Bila introduced you? MR THWALA No, that is wrong. MR KNOPP You were acquainted with George Bila before you met the applicant? MR THWALA George Bila, I was serving as a Branch Secretary, the BC, of the ANC, George Bila is serving in the BC of SANCO as a Publicity Secretary obviously, I knew George at that level. MR KNOPP You used to visit George Bila at home? MR THWALA Yes, sometimes. MR KNOPP And sometimes you used to borrow his motor car for ANC activities? MR THWALA Not only ANC, even for personal purposes, I didn't have a car. MR KNOPP Yes. CHAIRPERSON Where is he now, George Bila? MR THWALA He is around. CHAIRPERSON Is he still living in Tembisa? MR THWALA He is living in Kempton Park now. CHAIRPERSON Kempton Park? MR THWALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON But he is still very much around and available? MR THWALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Knopp? MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thwala, the applicant has told the tribunal that he left for exile as an ANC member and received MK training in exile. Do you dispute that? MR THWALA No, I don't dispute that, that is a fact. MR KNOPP When he returned to Tembisa, he returned to continue with his duties as an MK cadre? MR THWALA What am I supposed to do to respond, is that a question or what? MR KNOPP Are you disputing that? MR THWALA I don't know. I don't understand what you are driving at, that is my problem. MR KNOPP Well, you received training in exile as MK cadre, he now returns to Tembisa to carry out his duties as he was trained to do. MR LAX Sorry Mr Knopp, that wasn't his evidence. He said he didn't even know what he was going to do when he got back. MR THWALA That is it. MR LAX He certainly has never said his intention in coming back was to carry out his activities as an MK operative, as he had been trained? He may have ended up doing that, but that wasn't his intention on coming back, and he has not testified to that effect at all. MR KNOPP May I rephrase the question then? Did you know why the applicant came back to Tembisa? MR THWALA I didn't know the applicant before, I knew him later on, I don't know why he came back, but he says he is from Tembisa, so that is why he came back to Tembisa. MR KNOPP The applicant has testified that at the time when he came back, you were the MK Commander and under you was Mr Radebe, is that true? MR THWALA Tabiso was never in the MK command, the people who were in the commanding structure of the ANC then, which was established by the Branch, was not part of that, he was not part of those people, whether they were 8 or 10 or 12, he was not in that command. In any case around that time, he was in prison, I think. He was serving a sentence for possession of arms and so on. He was never in that, he was never involved in that. MR KNOPP The applicant has said that you provided him with firearms and ammunition? MR THWALA I provided him? MR KNOPP Yes? MR THWALA No. I still don't provide, I have never. Where was that, with whom was I with? MR KNOPP You and Radebe? MR THWALA But Radebe was in prison? When was that? MR KNOPP This was early in 1992. MR THWALA When is early, that is what I wanted to establish from you initially, you have been evasive about that. MR KNOPP And you told the applicant that Rev Namane was a problem to the ANC, and you instructed the applicant to eliminate Rev Namane? MR THWALA No, Rev Namane was never a problem to the ANC, and I never instructed him, why would that be the case, he was never a problem to the ANC. MR KNOPP Did you know that Rev Namane was a member of the PAC? MR THWALA I heard later, I knew that he was in the TCA, Tembisa Civic Association, the other side of the Civic, a break-away splinter from the TRA. CHAIRPERSON That was not an establishment structure, was it a break-away from the original Residents Association? MR THWALA Initially there was a Tembisa Civic Association and then later on, there was a problem and then other people, comrades moved out of that and formed the TRA and TCA, I think those people remained there, and part of those people were there, Mr Qoba (indistinct), Mr Namane and others. CHAIRPERSON So that, the Tembisa Civic Association that originally represented the community in Tembisa? MR THWALA That was the name that was used, yes. CHAIRPERSON And then there was some internal dispute? MR THWALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And a group of the members of the TCA ... MR THWALA The majority of the comrades there ... CHAIRPERSON They broke away to form the ... MR THWALA They were inclined towards the ANC, formed the TRA. CHAIRPERSON The TRA? MR THWALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON So the Civic Association, Tembisa Civic Association, would it be incorrect to label it as an establishment body? MR THWALA The TC? CHAIRPERSON Yes. That was very much, as I understand what you are saying, that was very much a community initiative, it was not an establishment body? MR THWALA It was not an established body. CHAIRPERSON An establishment body, you know, in other words ... MR THWALA By the government? CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR THWALA No, when it was formed, it was formed by the community. CHAIRPERSON By the community? MR THWALA Yes, correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Knopp. MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairman. The old Councillors that worked under the apartheid structures, they were not favoured by the ANC? MR THWALA That is a known fact. MR KNOPP Was Rev Namane a old Councillor? MR THWALA No, as far as I know, I don't think he was a Councillor, he was in the Civic Association, this other Civic Association. He was never a Councillor as far as I can recall. MR KNOPP Are you disputing that Rev Namane was eliminated for political purposes? MR THWALA I don't know what Rev Namane was eliminated for. MR KNOPP Were you surprised at all when the applicant came up with the story that he killed Rev Namane on your instructions? MR THWALA Obviously. What would you say if I came to you and say the same thing, you instructed me to do a certain deed? MR KNOPP Why do you think the applicant on the one hand would falsely implicate you in the killing and on the other hand, confess to the act himself? MR THWALA He probably wants to politicise it and get amnesty, I don't know, I don't know. MR KNOPP May I just refer to my notes, I want to check up on a certain date? CHAIRPERSON Yes. Whilst we are waiting, Mr Thwala, have you ever been involved in the re-integration of the applicant into the local structures in Tembisa? MR THWALA Personally? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR THWALA No. I have not been, it is just that everybody, you know people will come into the ANC office - at some stage, there was a register as well of people who were, when the MK was formed locally, it was, there were rules that were set that if a person in the event that a project is successful and so on, if you don't pitch up into those meetings wherein issues related to those projects and certain tasks are given for people to do, and so on, there is a register, if you don't appear in that, you won't be able to be given whatever is accrued in that project. There was one particular project, you know, selling of crates for cold drinks in the informal settlements and so on, that was one major project that did take off, albeit later on, because of maladministration, it collapsed, and people who did not attend those meetings and did not and I think he was one of those people who was not, because we had all those problems, running around and so on. CHAIRPERSON Now, if I understood the applicant's version correctly, he was testifying that almost as the means of re-introducing himself into the local structures in Tembisa, his brother-in-law George Biela arranged a meeting where he then met you, so that if I understood his evidence correctly, you were virtually his first port of all in order to get into the Tembisa local structures? MR THWALA No. CHAIRPERSON You say you met him in the office? MR THWALA As one of, I didn't even know that he was George, because I didn't even know George Biela. I knew George Biela, because I then subsequently became a member of the Executive Committee and he was the Publicity Secretary of our so-called TRA, SANCO, then the fore-runner of SANCO and I got to know him then. Then later on because of his conduct and so on, I got to know that he is related to him. In trying to address some of these issues, I would appeal through George and so on to assist, because of the problems he was creating for himself personally as a person. That was my first concern about him, I had a responsibility as well to try and make sure that our people don't get into trouble, into mischief and so on. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Knopp? MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairman. Did the applicant register at the ANC office? MR THWALA Register, what do you mean register? MR KNOPP Didn't you just testify that the returnees was supposed to register themselves? MR THWALA I am saying all MK exiles, they had the whole office, the whole structure, people who were accountable, where they would register and when they attend those meetings as and when they were called, they would go and attend there. The ANC office was different, it is catering for everybody locally, unless you are saying he joined the ANC formally as a member, came in with his R12-00 whatsoever, and that is something else, I don't recall that. But it could be because I was not per se sitting in the office every day. There was, you know, there were three people at a time, when I was in the office, who were assisting me as administrators in the office, because we would deal with matters of the community and so on, negotiations and so on, besides sitting in the office, and also liaising with Shell House and so on, because that was what I was doing. MR KNOPP Do you know if the applicant registered with MK? MR THWALA As MK? MR KNOPP When he returned? MR THWALA He was one of the people who came in, I said so. Later on, he was one of those people who had been questioned as not being available, but also I knew because I was sitting in the office, he had those problems, trying to run away, because we wanted to call him to order. He did not want to be accountable to the organisation, he became a loose force so to say. MR KNOPP What do you mean when you say he was not available? MR THWALA People were coming into the office and say "Linda did this and that", you know, you would try and trace him around, ask people "can you call that comrade to come and account", he doesn't pitch up, he will duck and dive and so on. You will see him after some time and so on, you know. That is the sort of thing I am referring to. MR KNOPP My instructions from the applicant concerning this alleged ill-discipline is that he doesn't know any lawyer, he wasn't involved with any lawyer in Tembisa. MR THWALA He was not involved with the lawyer, yes he was involved with the family's lawyer, he went there, threatened them with a gun, took their van, took their daughter, that is how he became involved. I am not saying on a client and a lawyer basis, but on that issue, that is how they came to have a problem with the family of that lawyer and the lawyer personally because his family was threatened, and he appealed to me, because he knew me that I must appeal to this comrade, they don't want to go and open up cases and so on at the police station. MR KNOPP My instructions are that the applicant had a girlfriend by the name Bertha Magunda. MR THWALA Yes, that is the sister, if he calls her a girlfriend, that is the sister, Magunda. MR KNOPP My instructions are further that this was a personal matter, it was not either an MK matter or an ANC matter and the applicant therefore does not know why you are raising this issue now. MR THWALA It was a personal matter when he did that, but when the people come and complain to the ANC, it becomes an ANC matter, because he is supposed, the people know him as an ANC person and know us as ANC, and it is creating a bad image for the organisation and ourselves. People point us and say we are doing this and that. That is the problem. That is not personal when it comes to that, it becomes a problem. MR KNOPP My instructions are that whilst the applicant was at his own home, or his family's home, together with the girlfriend Bertha Magunda, the brothers of his girlfriend came to the house and insulted him. MR THWALA I was not around, I don't know that. I cannot dispute what you are saying. MR KNOPP And that led to a misunderstanding. The applicant specifically denies that any firearm was involved in that instant. MR THWALA And the van was not taken? MR KNOPP The applicant will say that he did use the van, the family's van. MR THWALA They gave it voluntarily? MR KNOPP Together with the girlfriend, but that was returned later on. There is no such thing as the van having been robbed, and a firearm? MR THWALA Well, that is your version Chief. CHAIRPERSON Did you interview the applicant about this particular incident? MR THWALA He ducked and dived, I asked him, the Chief, he was standing on the door of the office, the Chief was walking around the passage, "where is the car", where is the family's car, people came and reported there is a problem, "why don't you bring back that car" and so on, "you are going to be arrested because of that", and that girl as well, because it is abduction. It might later on turn to something else if you are not careful, then he promised that she would come back, they will come back, they will talk about this and up to now. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Knopp? MR KNOPP My instructions are that the misunderstanding or the dispute was settled amicably between the applicant and the family of Bertha? MR THWALA I don't know what later transpired, but that is what happened initially Chief. MR KNOPP Mr Thwala were there SDU units established in Tembisa in 1992? MR THWALA There were people who called themselves SDU's when we came there, I don't know when they were established. MR KNOPP The applicant has testified that he participated in establishing SDU units in 1992 in Tembisa. MR THWALA He established them as what, he as what? MR KNOPP Well, as part of MK activities. MR THWALA As far as I know, MK did not establish SDU's, SDU's were already there. Some, you know, SDU's, not everywhere. Where there were pockets of problems and so on. MR KNOPP Where were the firearms and ammunition for the SDU's, where was that obtained from? MR THWALA The community would club together and they would organise their own like everywhere else. MR KNOPP Did MK not provide the firearms for the SDU's? MR THWALA MK came through the airport, they didn't carry guns with them. MR KNOPP I want to refer you to page 65 of the ANC statement to the TRC, where Nelson Mandela emphasised at the 1991 national conference of the ANC "... where MK can, it must of course make its experience available to those communities that are engaged in the process of establishing Self Defence Units." MR THWALA Yes? MR KNOPP And also "... some members of MK Military HQ were asked to attend to issues relating to SDU's, their organisation, training and provision of weaponry." Is that not the position? MR THWALA Where was this thing issued, this directive, this MHQ people, with whom were they liaising? Did they liaise with Mr Mohale? MR KNOPP I am just putting to you the ANC statement to the TRC, I am quoting verbatim from the statement. MR THWALA That is the statement, you know that in Katorus, kwaZulu Natal and in other areas in the Vaal and so on, there were all sorts of problems and the community, because the ANC of its own volition decided to suspend the armed struggle, people were putting pressure on the organisation to relieve them from this onslaught which was being carried out by the government of the day and its proxies and so on. Naturally as a political organisation, Mandela is a politician first and foremost, his colleagues, they have to issue a political statement which would try to, because they had their own objective when they went into this process, they knew exactly what they wanted to come out with. From time to time, they were putting their heads together and understanding what at the end of the day they wanted to achieve with this process of suspending the armed struggle and engaging in negotiations. That is in the context of that, that the statement was issued. MR KNOPP Mr Thwala, getting back to the motive for the killing of the Rev Namane, the victim, the applicant has told us that originally he didn't know Rev Namane, he had never heard of him, he didn't know where he lived, is it then possible, if that is true, is it possible that he would go and seek out Rev Namane and kill him for personal reasons, a person who is a complete stranger to him? MR THWALA Just tell him to be frank and open to this Committee and say exactly who ordered him to do all those things, so that he can get out of the problem that he is in and not try to implicate other people as he is doing now. MR KNOPP Well, he has testified that it is yourself and Mr Radebe. MR THWALA No, that is not correct, I am not involved in that. I am not even sure because Mr Radebe sometime was in prison. MR KNOPP Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOPP CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Knopp. Ms Vilakazi, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI Yes, I do have questions, honourable Chair. Mr Thwala, you have made an affidavit in which you said that immediately after you came back in 1992, you were incorporated into the Tembisa ANC Branch and that you served in the commanding structure of the MK in Tembisa? MR THWALA Yes, correct. MS VILAKAZI In which position did you serve? MR THWALA In the interim structure, I was the Commander of that structure. MS VILAKAZI Would you say that it is an accounting position? MR THWALA Accounting position? MS VILAKAZI Yes. MR THWALA What do you mean by that? MS VILAKAZI Is it a position that would make you accountable for the operations of the structure? MR THWALA The structure was not set up to involve in armed activities or operations, it was designed specifically to look at three areas that I alluded to earlier, the registration and to make sure that who is who in the MK in Tembisa, because other people, we left at different times when we did not even know that other people, who came from the same area because it is a big area, and then to look at the issue of welfare as well as the issue of is it possible to check the data in integration for people in the future in the new Force. That was that, it was not designed for operations. MS VILAKAZI As the Commander within that particular structure, operating as you have explained, what were your responsibilities? MR THWALA I was not operating as an individual, I indicated that we had a sort of commanding structure which was responsible for day to day activities if I may put it, whatever issues that arose that affected MK cadres locally, the structure was designed to deal with that. MS VILAKAZI Okay, now as part of the commanding structure, were the other members, the ordinary members within the structure answerable to yourselves? MR THWALA Answerable to, yes, that is basically, the structure, if you are in the army, there is a command structure and there are subordinates, and subordinates in military, but this was not strictly, this is not a camp, this is not a war zone, it was designed, why it was formed, it was specifically to deal with the issue of checking who is who in Tembisa and so on, and then other issues. MS VILAKAZI Issues of discipline, were they also part of your responsibility? MR THWALA No, not discipline per se, it is not a camp. In the camp, if you are a soldier misbehaving, every army, there is a way of dealing with it, so we did not have the facilities to deal with that. People were on their own, assumed to be accountable and mature enough to conduct themselves in a manner that would be not bring the organisation into disrepute and so on. MS VILAKAZI Are you saying that if any member of the structure misbehaved or behaved in a manner which would bring the organisation or the structure itself into disrepute, no disciplinary measures would be taken? MR THWALA What sort of disciplinary measures would be taken? MS VILAKAZI Whatever type of discipline that had to be ... MR THWALA We did not have a disciplinary tribunal or committee within the structure, not to my knowledge. MS VILAKAZI But you have testified to the effect that you called Mr Mohale to ask him about certain reports that you had received, why did you do that? MR THWALA Why did I do that, because I was concerned about him and even the organisation. I am a senior, if I may put it that way, and I was the most senior MK activist in Tembisa and besides, I was Branch Secretary of the ANC, and that in itself, when these reports come in to me, I have to act, I cannot just fold my hands and say, I have to talk to people and appeal to them through that hoping that people through that military discipline and political understanding, they would be able to behave. MS VILAKAZI So are you saying that the action that you took began and ended with talking to them and appealing to them to behave properly? MR THWALA Yes, not only him. There were instances, yes, that is how, not only myself, even other comrades to appeal to people, you know. MS VILAKAZI Are you saying that if a person did not respond positively to your requests, then nothing else would be done? MR THWALA What would we do? Nothing. MS VILAKAZI Okay. Let us look at - you have also testified about the tension that existed at some stage between the MDM and the developers and that the ANC tried to defuse the tension. Were you involved as part of the ANC? MR THWALA They did that before I was, I came in. MS VILAKAZI So at that particular time, you were not involved, is that what you are saying? MR THWALA No, I got reports, yes. MS VILAKAZI Okay. When exactly did you get to know Mr Mohale? MR THWALA During that process 1992. MS VILAKAZI When exactly in 1992? MR THWALA I cannot say the date, but during that process of all these projects and integration and so on, forming of MK and so on, local, I got to know him and other people, not only him. Those that I did not know. For your information, most of the people that were MK in Tembisa, they are still intact and so on, most of them, they came through my hands. I trained them, some of them left the country through myself and so on. I knew a lot of the people, there were others that I did not know myself, which I got to know later. MS VILAKAZI I am referring specifically to Mr Mohale, and my question still stands, when exactly did you get to know Mr Mohale in that year of 1992? MR THWALA During that process, yes. MS VILAKAZI When exactly? MR THWALA I don't know, but during that process, it is a process, it is not an event. MS VILAKAZI So you cannot say specifically that this is the particular time? MR THWALA I cannot say it was Tuesday at ten o'clock, no. MS VILAKAZI You cannot even say the month? MR THWALA I cannot say, I don't know when it was, I cannot recall. MS VILAKAZI When did you become an Executive member of the TRA? MR THWALA I have never become a member of the TRA. MS VILAKAZI You have said - let me just read it - let me just... CHAIRPERSON Are you referring to the testimony Ms Vilakazi? MS VILAKAZI Yes, he said he became a member of the Executive. CHAIRPERSON I don't think it would be the TRA, just the ANC Branch in Tembisa. MS VILAKAZI Okay, when did you become a member of the Executive of the ANC Branch? MR THWALA I was coopted sometime in 1992, during that process and later on when there was a AGM, I was formally elected, the Secretary. I was acting as the Secretary, because the then (indistinct), he was a principal at the local high school, then they asked me to stand in and take that position. MS VILAKAZI Are you able to say in which month exactly, even if you don't give us a date, did you become involved with the ANC Executive before you were elected? MR THWALA I cannot say whether it was March or April, somewhere around there. MS VILAKAZI But the ... MR THWALA I don't know the date, that is the month, I am just telling you about. I having a guess, but that is the time. MS VILAKAZI So it was early in the year? MR THWALA Yes. Because the AGM is normally held towards the end of the year, September, October, that is when I was confirmed in that position. MS VILAKAZI Okay, I am sure you aware that I am representing the Namane family. MR THWALA Yes. MS VILAKAZI And the family really wants to know why Mr Namane was killed, and their expectations is that after this hearing, they will have answers to their questions. Mr Mohale has implicated you and he said he has said, that you are one of the people who instructed him to kill Mr Namane. You have denied that flatly. You have made references to some tensions which existed between some structures and organisations in Tembisa. Can you assist the family in all honesty with the answers to the questions, the main question being why was Mr Namane killed? Do you have any information even if it means implicating somebody, I think in all fairness, they deserve to know why Mr Namane was killed. Are you in a position to provide any answer. MR THWALA I don't have that information. MS VILAKAZI Or any clues that you could give as to why Mr Namane possibly could have been killed? MR THWALA I don't know. Mr Mohale is here, he could be able to account. Maybe after this, he would be able now to go back and think afresh and come up with the answers to those questions that were raised. MS VILAKAZI I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Does the Panel have any questions? ADV SIBANYONI Just one or two Mr Chairperson. Mr Thwala, did you know Ephraim Mogale and Velapi staying at kwaMshangu? MR THWALA No. ADV SIBANYONI The applicant said you people made arrangements that he should go underground, hide in kwaMshangu and you were against him coming back now and again to Tembisa, what do you say about that? MR THWALA I have never at any stage, because in any case, he had so many problems around there, but I had never made any arrangements. I think he testified that he was taken by Thabiso at some stage, I cannot know, I was not involved in that, I don't know. ADV SIBANYONI You never issued any order or instruction that he should go to kwaMshangu? MR THWALA No. ADV SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Thank you Chair, I would be brief. During the period that you were back from exile, in other words from the beginning of 1992 and as somebody involved in the Executive of the ANC Branch, what sort of violence took place in Tembisa at that time that you are aware of? MR THWALA At that time there was no violence, political violence, except later on there was a gangster which terrorised the community which was, I think, what happened was that in Mtandela Section, comrades organised themselves into Street Committees and so on and they resolved that if you transgress, if you kill a person, let me go straight to the point, you are going to be killed as well. One of the members of the Committee, apparently, it is alleged, he killed somebody and when he was supposed to be dealt with, his friend within that, refused and then there was a split and this youngsters who were not happy with that, decided - they were sort of threatened and victimised, and they left the place and then at the end of the day, they ended up saying in Vusimusi hostel where they were organised later on by Inkatha and so on. That was the only people who were problems, that area is just opposite the hostel. The area, the other area is adjacent to it, which was the problem later on with violence in Tembisa. That was the area. MR LAX What timeframe was that approximately? MR THWALA Pardon? MR LAX Approximately? MR THWALA I think this thing started early, probably 1991, I am not sure, because when I came, there was this problem of Mtandela, that was the only area which had a problem with violence in Tembisa, hence the birth of the Toaster Gangsters and so on, those were some of the youngsters who left. MR LAX Okay. Now, just as an estimate, the question was put to you, Mr Radebe, he wasn't sure, approximately how many MK cadres were there in the general Tembisa area of that time that would have formed part of the projects and would have been registered for possible integration and so on, rough figures, 50, 100, 200, who knows? MR THWALA Possibly 100 or 50, but at the given time, you know people come, others decide to leave, others get deployed in Headquarters and subsequently they move, so there is no fixed number that I would say today, it was so many people, but it was just - but there was of course people who stayed there in Tembisa. MR LAX During that 1992 period that we are talking about here, June, August, pre-June, post-August, as ANC General Secretary of that Branch you would have known about the SDU activities, because SDU's should have been accountable to the ANC Branch? MR THWALA Yes. MR LAX And was there a great deal of SDU activities? MR THWALA No, except in areas where there was a problem like I indicated around Mtandela, what is it called Qupa, the (indistinct) section, and then a sprinkling of individuals you know, who called themselves SDU's, but that was the, it was confined mainly to those areas where there were problems. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Have you got anything, Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No questions Chairperson, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Thwala, you are excused. MR THWALA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA The next witness is Mr Tleane. CHAIRPERSON Tleane? Can Mr Tleane come forward? Can you switch on the microphone and give you full names for the record? MR TLEANE Albert Sello Tleane. CHAIRPERSON What is the second name, sorry. MR TLEANE Sello, S-e-l-l-o. CHAIRPERSON Tleane. How does one spell that? MR TLEANE T-l-e-a-n-e. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ALBERT SELLO TLEANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tleane, will you please tell this Committee whether you are employed or not and if you are employed, what sort of job are you doing? MR TLEANE At the moment I am not employed. The last time I was employed, was last year in June, when I was - in May -when I was the Provincial Secretary of SANCO, that is the South African National Civic Organisation. I resigned for reasons that will be explained later on during this tribunal. I am currently a full-time volunteer of NARCO, that is the National Association of Residents and Civic Organisation, under the National Secretary, it is a new Civic body that was formed in August last year, by people who left SANCO for various political reasons. MS MTANGA What job were you doing in 1992? MR TLEANE In 1992 I was a full-time employee of the Tembisa Residents Association, which transformed during that year to become the Tembisa Branch of SANCO. The thing is the then Branch Secretary who should have manned the office, was already employed elsewhere, it was therefore decided that as the President, and as the person that was available, I should then step in and man the office. MS MTANGA Can you briefly explain to the Committee what the TRA was? MR TLEANE With pleasure Ma'am, that is what I have wanted to do, because I have realised that the tribunal is not very clear about what was happening, the relationship between the various organisations that has been referred to, during that period. Precisely what was happening is that there were two camps, the two camps did not only exist in so far as the Civic movement was concerned, the two camps existed beyond the Civic movement, they existed in the Student bodies, in the Trade Unions, everywhere. I think there was always a need for political parties then, or political organisations to retain or to maintain or to win the strategic initiative or influence within those particular communities at that time. Now, there were these two camps, there were the Chatteries, what we used to call the Chatteries, and on the other side, there were what used to be referred to as the Amazinze. The Amazinze used to be the PAC aligned organisations and the Chatteries, used to be those organisations that were aligned to the African National Congress. That is even before political parties were unbanned. Initially the Civic body in Tembisa was the Tembisa Civic Association, unfortunately it constituted of members coming from across political lines, you had within the TCA people coming from the unity movements, the PAC, the ANC, etc, etc. I think that led to contradictions happening within that particular formation, which led ultimately to those comrades that were aligned to the ANC or to the UDF then, the United Democratic Movement, pulling out of the TCA to form the TRA. The strategy that was then used to actually form this TRA, was to go into the various sections of the township and to establish structures there, finally the TRA became a dominant force in Tembisa because they could call meetings in the various sections that could call the community to the stadium. The TRA became the voice of the people in the TRA, and I think politically speaking, the TCA you know, faded and it died out naturally. I think I may be correct to say died a natural death politically speaking, they were not a force to reckon with. Mr Thwala was correct to say people like Mr Gubandlo, people like the late Rev Namane, were members of the TCA, so the TCA, yes it was there, but it was not effective in the township. It did not become necessarily a threat per se to ourselves as a Civic movement, but generally in the township, it was always associated with PAC aligned organisations. There were always those tensions between ourselves and themselves, not necessarily because they were a threat, that could take over and influence the community, but simply because they were known to be coming from the other side. MS MTANGA Can you ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry, what was the time period of this split approximately? MR TLEANE This split happened around 1983, 1984, so from that period up to around 1996, we were involved in Tembisa, in this noble exercise of ensuring that we build this formidable Civic movement that was to be the voice of the people. CHAIRPERSON In 1992, was the TCA still in existence and still active? MR TLEANE It was in existence sir, you know, just by name. We used to see them every time we engaged for instance the old Transvaal Provincial authority and the local councils in discussions and so on, about the local situation, they would also pitch up, but they were not a threat to us. Invariably in all those situations, finally, our proposals, our views, were the ones that were taken. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Sorry Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Can you say when exactly was the TRA formed, when did you break away from the TCA? MR TLEANE We broke away from the TCA, I am not sure about the exact date, but I would suggest that it was around 1984, somewhere there. Between 1984 and 1986, the TRA was known as the Working Committee. The Working Committee was the fore-runner to the Tembisa Residents Association, and the TRA was formally launched around 1986, 1987, somewhere there. MS MTANGA You have heard the evidence of Mr Patrick Thwala who indicated that he arrived, he came to the country in 1992, and according to his evidence, even at the time he had arrived in Tembisa, there were such, his description of the tension between the TRA and the TCA or the Civic Organisation, was not a subtle one as you would say, and it seemed to him that at this time, the tension was still rife. What is your view about this? MR TLEANE I think it is important for us to put this in a proper context and perspective. As I have indicated, political parties dominate and influence communities, you don't have one community that is referred to as a Civic community and then another community that is referred to as a community for political parties, that is not the case. You've got one community and within that community you will then have political parties or organisations, then vying for power and control. What I want to say is that at that time, there were two types of tensions that were happening in Tembisa. The first one was the general one that was ANC vs PAC, by ANC I am referring to all organisations that were aligned to the ANC, including of course the TRA or SANCO. That was the first tension between ANC aligned organisations and for instance the PAC and other organisations such as the IFP, etc. But then just before 1990, before the exiles were to return, within the mass democratic movement itself, within our own structures, other tensions began to emerge, you know. There was a feeling that was shared by many members within the Civic movement and the ANC that for instance the Civic leadership that had been in control of the situation in the township for some years, who had engaged the old regime in discussions and negotiations about transformation and other things, should actually be allowed to lead the ANC once it was unbanned in the country. The other school of thought was that comrades who came in from exile or those who came in from Robben Island or things like those, you know, those who were involved in military activities and so on, who were perceived to be understanding properly the strategic objectives of the ANC, should be the ones to lead the organisation. From 1990 there were those tensions that began to emerge within the MDM itself. The Youth became more involved, they wanted to lead the ANC, not only the Youth League, but the ANC itself, you know. The Women also came in and so on, COSAS, student bodies and so on, finally there were tensions between the Civic activists or the Civic Organisation and the ANC, but we still could, we still could work together. There were those two levels of tensions and it is very important to understand that. As we proceeded, during the period of 1992 and beyond, the tension between ANC aligned organisations and the PAC and the others became very, very minimal because I think over and above, at that time, we had managed through various programmes of action by the democratic movement in the area and elsewhere, to project the ANC and its aligned organisations, as the major political force in that area. The tensions between ourselves and the PAC for instance, although they were still there, they were not as major as the tension that was beginning to emerge within the mass democratic movement. MS MTANGA Would you say in 1992 the friction between the ANC and the PAC had minimised? MR TLEANE Yes, my belief, not necessarily the ANC, the office bearers and so on, the ANC, I am referring to the general membership of the ANC which incorporated the Civics, the Trade Unions and so on, my understanding is that by that time, it was subsiding, because the ANC obviously appeared to have had the upper hand in terms of structures, in terms of activities, etc, etc. MS MTANGA And you also say that when this minimised, what came to the fore now was the tension between the people who came from exile and local, and people who were locally aligned to the ANC in terms of who should control the community? MR TLEANE Yes, the tension began in that fashion. MS MTANGA So in 1992, this was predominantly the problem? MR TLEANE Yes, yes. MS MTANGA You have heard the evidence that Mr Namane was PAC and how well did you know Mr Songo and Mr Namane? MR TLEANE I did not necessarily know Mr Namane as someone that was involved in housing and so forth, I knew Mr Namane as being a member of the TCA which was known to be a PAC aligned organisation. That is how I knew Mr Namane, but as I have indicated, he was neither a threat to myself, nor to the organisation. They were only seen as reactionary elements. The same applies to Mr Songo. Although I think Mr Songo's situation was very strange. Mr Songo was a Councillor in the old system, but Mr Songo simultaneously was embarrassing his own Council in the sense that he was encouraging homeseekers to invade Council land and so on and so on. I think Mr Songo was more of a problem to the Council than to ourselves. He had an organisation of homeseekers, it operated not necessarily in Tembisa, it started in an area that is called Ogmore, around Ogmore station. When you come from Pretoria to Johannesburg, there is a station in Tembisa called Ogmore. He started there with land invasion, but after a little while, he moved over to Ivory Park, that is Midrand, that is where Mr Songo popularised himself and so on, and so on, in Ivory Park, not in Tembisa. MS MTANGA Well, would Mr Songo in his activities have in any way an enemy or caused tension to the ANC or to SANCO? MR TLEANE Ma'am, as I have already indicated, Mr Songo was a Councillor under the old system, generally speaking in those days, the majority of the people, the democratic organisation, the liberation movement, was opposed to all apartheid structures, and Mr Songo was participating within an apartheid structure. I think from that premise he was seen to be on the other side, but he was not necessarily a threat per se because at that time, in 1992, the big fish of the Councillors in the area, Mr Mteba who was the Mayor, had already resigned. I think Mr Mteba if I am not mistaken, resigned somewhere in 1987 or 1988, and I think it is important for the tribunal to quickly also understand the reason that may have persuaded Mr Mteba to resign. Mr Mteba was shot at on a number of occasions, his business was bombed out and finally he resigned from Council, he approached Ms Albertina Sisulu and other people, the leadership of the then United Democratic Front through the assistance of the local mass democratic movement and he joined the progressive structures. Once Mr Mteba had resigned from the Council, I think all Councillors became discredited although some of them proceeded with their work, they were no longer as prominent as they were before, before the resignation of Mr Mteba, so they continued to be regarded as problems, as reactionary elements, etc, etc. But they were not longer as effective as they were when they were still working as a united force. MS MTANGA Can you briefly explain the relationship between SANCO and the TRA in 1992? MR TLEANE As I have indicated, we formed the TRA through the process of 1984, etc. But in 1992, yes, 1992 Civics across the country decided that it was important to come together to form one body that would represent all communities so that there is unity in action, etc, etc. The TRA, the Tembisa Residents Association, then became a part of the new body that was formed nationally during that course of, I cannot remember the month, but I think it was in 1992 when SANCO, the South African National Civic Organisation, was formed. We then transformed from being the TRA to being SANCO Tembisa Branch. MS MTANGA Mr Tleane, let's come to the matter before us. MR TLEANE Yes. MS MTANGA Do you know Mr Mohale, Linda Mohale? MR TLEANE I know Mr Mohale, but I knew him for the first time some time in 1992. MS MTANGA How did you get to know Mr Mohale? MR TLEANE When I first made contact with Mr Mohale, it was in the vicinity of the Tembe Shopping Centre. The Tembe Shopping Centre is the area where non-governmental organisations are situated, the TRA, the ANC, the Trade Union movement in Tembisa is housed in the Tembe Shopping Mall, so Mr Mohale was pointed out to me in the vicinity of that area by certain persons as being one of the persons that had just returned from exile. That was the first time that I set my eyes upon him. I think a few days thereafter or a week thereafter, I then met Mr Mohale when he had come to the Tembe Shopping Centre in the evening, driving Mr George Biela's car, I think Mr George Biela had two cars then. Mr George Biela was in the Executive Committee of the Tembisa Resident Association, he was the Publicity Secretary as indicated by Mr Thwala. I was the President. From time to time, when we had Executive Committee meetings, which were on Thursdays ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Tleane, can I just ask you, try not to move your hand, this is very, very sensitive and the interpreters are having a bit of a problem to deal with that. MR TLEANE I thank you sir, I thank you. CHAIRPERSON But go ahead please. MS MTANGA Do you know Ashley Sesing? MR TLEANE I was just in the process of explaining how I then met Mr Mohale. After he was first pointed out to me at Tembi, I was saying that usually Mr Biela, who was the Publicity Secretary for the TRA, official of the President, on Thursday evenings when we held Executive Committee meetings, he was one of the few comrades who owned cars. He would then make his car available to help us get home after the meetings, so on this particular Thursday, when we went to his car, we found a gentleman behind the steering. Mr George Biela introduced us, those Executive Committee members who had got a lift from his car, he introduced us to Mr Mohale as his brother-in-law and as someone who had just come back from exile. That is how Mr Mohale was actually introduced to me. MS MTANGA Did you see Mr Mohale after this day? MR TLEANE I saw him on and off around the Tembe Shopping Centre where I was working, as I have indicated. Our office is indicated next door to the office of the African National Congress, so from time to time, you know, the comrades would be coming in for various reasons into the Centre. Sometimes he would pop in you know, into the office, just to say hello and proceed. MS MTANGA Did any friendship or relationship come into place between you and him? MR TLEANE No, not at all. I was very, very close up to this moment with his brother-in-law. MS MTANGA Did you ever sit with him and had discussions with him? MR TLEANE Not at all, not at all. As I am saying he used to pop in sometimes, you know, there wouldn't be any serious discussions and so on. It would just be about the ordinary things that people talk about, generally speaking and then he would move out, because the office was busy. It was not like I was at home, you know, we could sit down and just talk in general terms. The office was busy, we would have people coming in with problems and so on. He would just pop in and proceed. MS MTANGA Mr Tleane, did you at any time in 1992 instruct Mr Mohale to go and assassinate Mr Songo? MR TLEANE I did not. I had no reason whatsoever to instruct either Mr Mohale or anybody else to go and kill Mr Songo. I was with Mr Songo at school, we were classmates. He may have been a Councillor, he may have taken another political line and so on, but as I have indicated already, he was never a threat to myself or to my organisation or generally speaking, to the community of Tembisa. He was seen as a reactionary element, but not to an extent where it would be considered that he had to be killed. I never gave the instructions to Mr Mohale to eliminate Mr Songo. In fact Ma'am, the person that was prominent in Tembisa, who was really regarded as some kind of a threat by the democratic movement in the area, is the gentleman that was mentioned here by Mr Thwala, Mr Goba Ndlovo. Mr Goba Ndlovo was highly influential in Tembisa, he was highly articulate and so on and every time we met with Councillors, with the officials from the Transvaal Provincial Administration, he would create problems and so on, and so on, and so on. But even then, I don't know of any attempts that were made on Mr Qoba Ndlovo. I never had any reason, I don't have a reason now to see Mr Songo killed. MS MTANGA Did you in your day to day life, when you met Mr Mohale, speak to him about things happening in the community, did you ever discuss the political situation? MR TLEANE It is common practice Ma'am, for activists, especially in those days, to engage in certain discussions which ultimately may end as some kind of political discussions. As far as that is concerned, yes, I think we did touch from time to time, when he passed by, we did touch on some issues relating to the general situation in Tembisa. MS MTANGA But you would not say there was a personal relationship between you and Mr Mohale? MR TLEANE Not at all. I remained a friend to his brother-in-law up to today. MS MTANGA In your statement to the police, there is an affidavit, in the affidavit in front of you, you should have it in front of you. MR TLEANE Unfortunately I don't have it now, Ma'am. I will get it as soon as it is offered to me. MS MTANGA I would like to refer the Panel to the statement on page 16 of the supplementary bundle, do you confirm that this is a statement made by you to the police? MR TLEANE Yes, Ma'am. MS MTANGA Do you confirm knowledge of the contents of that statement or do you want me to give you some time to go through it? MR TLEANE I assume it will be the statement that I made to the police in relation to the High Court matter, in which I was a co-accused, I don't think I need time to go through it. I assume it is the same statement. MS MTANGA In that statement you indicated to the police that you borrowed a car from Mr Mohale? MR TLEANE Yes. MS MTANGA From Mr Muhla? MR TLEANE From Mr Mathlo, yes. MS MTANGA What was the reason for you to borrow that car? MR TLEANE Ma'am, I was approached by Mr Mohale and he is not the only comrade from exile that had come into our office for assistance during those days, they were coming in for various forms of assistance, housing and other things, and so on, sometimes finance, and other things. Mr Mohale came in and indicated that he needed to take his mother to Standerton, I cannot remember what was the reasons. He had to take his mother to Standerton, unfortunately he was unable to utilise his brother-in-law's vehicles at that time, apparently they were being used by George and his wife, and he requested me, because he told me that he was unable to get transportation from elsewhere, he requested me to help him to acquire transport that he was going to utilise, I think he was going to leave on a Friday if I am not mistaken and he was supposed to come back the following day. He requested me to help him to find transport. I knew for a fact that Mr George Biela's wife from time to time also utilised the other family car belonging to Mr Biela, I assumed then that indeed Mr Mohale was unable to get transport from anywhere else. I then told myself that I should help Mr Mohale to get this transport vehicle, so that he could transport his mother to what is it, Standerton. MS MTANGA Standerton. MR TLEANE It used to be called Eastern something, you know before it became Mpumalanga. MS MTANGA Eastern Transvaal. MR TLEANE Eastern Transvaal, yes. MS MTANGA Mr Tleane, do you deny that you borrowed that car to assist Mr Mohale to go and kill Mr Songo as he had wanted? MR TLEANE No, I deny that. I deny that. MS MTANGA Do you know Mr Ashley Sesing? MR TLEANE I happened to know Mr Sesing as an activist within the Youth structures in the township, but I knew him as a young man, a little boy, he was never very, very close to me. We knew him as one of the young lions you know. MS MTANGA Did Mr Mohale and Mr Sesing ever come to your house at any time in 1992? MR TLEANE No. MS MTANGA Before the killing of Mr Songo? MR TLEANE No. MS MTANGA I have no further questions Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Yes, well, we have unfortunately run out of time, and I assume that you would have questions for this witness Mr Knopp? MR KNOPP Indeed Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Unfortunately under those circumstances, we are not going to be able to proceed further this afternoon, I have already indicated what the position is with one of my colleagues on the Panel with me. Unfortunately under those circumstances we are going to have to let the matter stand down, yet again until tomorrow morning, and hopefully we would then be able to dispose of the matter. We do have quite a number of other matters on the roll and we try our best not to inconvenience other applicants whose matters we must also deal with, but often unfortunately in practice, things don't work out as you plan, so we are not able to proceed beyond this point today, we must apologise to those other applicants and I see Mr Koopedi is there as well, who represents some of his remaining applicants. We would not be able to deal with your matters this afternoon, but we will get to them as soon as it is practically possible to do so. Under those circumstances, we are going to adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning. Yes, Mr Tleane? MR TLEANE Sir, with due respect, I wish to indicate to the tribunal that I was informed very, very late about the hearing. I was informed timeously about the initial date, I think it was a month or two ago, I was informed timeously, but this time, I think I was informed last Thursday or Friday that on Monday there is this particular procedure. I am in a situation of examinations and so on. I had made rudimentary arrangements so that yesterday I could be available, I also twisted things around so that today I could be around, but tomorrow morning I am definitely writing some exams. If I am to pop in, it can only be in the afternoon. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR TLEANE I regret that, I don't want to be a nuisance. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we appreciate that, we know that if things don't work out the way we planned, there are always other difficulties that do arise, so we are going to have to accommodate your problem. MR TLEANE I will appreciate it sir. CHAIRPERSON By about what time would you be available tomorrow? MR TLEANE I think I will finish around twelve and I would rush from twelve o'clock and be here at around one o'clock. CHAIRPERSON If we were to take this matter now, Mr Knopp, you must also listen, if we were to take the matter at two o'clock, would that accommodate you? MR TLEANE It would sir. CHAIRPERSON What is your position Mr Knopp, would that inconvenience you? MR KNOPP (Microphone not on) CHAIRPERSON Let me just hear what the position of the other parties are. Mr Tleane, perhaps I must ask you first, what is your position on Thursday? MR TLEANE I don't have my timetable with me sir, I am sorry, I cannot assist the tribunal. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR TLEANE But as soon as I get home, I can. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we don't want that to happen. Would you be available tomorrow afternoon, Mr Knopp? MR KNOPP (Microphone not on) CHAIRPERSON I think let's go for the certain, not the uncertain please. Ms Vilakazi, would you be able to be here at two o'clock? I don't know if you've got other matters? MS VILAKAZI I am involved in other matters, so I have reserved up to Thursday for this hearing, so I am flexible. CHAIRPERSON All right. But I think Ms Tleane would have a problem, she had to make arrangements. MR TLEANE Mrs Tleane? MS VILAKAZI Ms Namane, sorry, she had to make arrangements to be here tomorrow, but in any case if a need arises for her to make any, would the Panel be inclined to accept written submissions? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I don't hear? MS VILAKAZI If a need arises for Ms Namane to make any submissions, would the Panel be inclined, because I think that would cover the ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, if - yes, I think you have explained your position to us earlier, that it might be that there might be some submissions that your clients might want to make in the light of all the evidence, some of which they didn't really anticipate and so on. MS VILAKAZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON No certainly, that is possible. MS VILAKAZI Okay, then we won't have any problems. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga, we trust that you would be here tomorrow afternoon? MS MTANGA Yes, I would be Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well. And I assume that you have something else that can occupy us from the morning. MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, tomorrow we will start with the two matters that were supposed to be heard today. CHAIRPERSON Very well. So we won't loose any time? MS MTANGA No. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that makes us happy. Yes well, under those circumstances we are going to arrange for this particular matter to then stand down until two o'clock tomorrow afternoon, when we will hopefully then be able to deal with the remaining evidence in the matter and dispose of it. If you could please see that you get here by two, Mr Tleane, we will appreciate that very much as well as all the other parties. We will then adjourn the proceedings at this stage and we will reconvene tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. We are adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS