amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-10 JOHANNESBURG 3 ERNEST MZAI FANIE HLONGWANE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53883&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110812_jhb_991110jb.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Hlongwane, are your full names Ernest Mzai Fanie Hlongwane? ERNEST MZAI FANIE HLONGWANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you may be seated. Yes Mr Koopedi? EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane, is it correct that you are a co-applicant in this matter and that your application appears on page 17 of the bundle of documents before this Honourable Committee? MR HLONGWANE That's correct. MR KOOPEDI Is it also correct that your application involves the attack on one, John Selai, and which occurred on the 29th of July 1992? MR HLONGWANE That's correct. MR KOOPEDI Could you briefly tell this Honourable Committee what happened on the evening of that day. MR HLONGWANE As far as I can recall it could have been two to three weeks after the Boipatong massacre. Those were very difficult times, we were always on guard, guarding our township. On that very same day, that night I was at the Checkers Tavern, we were sitting there. Many people were there and there were also other comrades from the township. While we were still sitting there, one of my friends arrived, that is Mvula Khumalo. When he arrived he asked me to accompany him to another shebeen at Mabaseka, the same street. He wanted to meet his girlfriend. We went there indeed. When we arrived there his girlfriend wasn't there. We didn't waste any time. On our way back - because my intention was to go back to Checkers Tavern because there were people that I left there, it could have been 200 metres away from Checkers Tavern, that's when I heard the gunshots. As we were looking around, we realised that these gunshots were coming from Checkers Tavern because there were many people standing outside the tavern and there was also a car there. Then we ran away. As we were running away - we ran to my home. From Checkers Tavern to my home is a very short distance. When I arrived at home we stood at the gate together with Mvula for about five minutes and then Mvula then decided that he'll go to those people. At that time it was known that if we heard a rumour that the Inkatha was present in the township or we heard gunshots in the township, ever person who was not armed at that time would go to his home to arm himself. So when Mvula left, I went inside the house and took my panga and thereafter I heard a noise from Checkers Tavern, then I decided to go back to Checkers Tavern to see what was happening there. Because in my mind I already knew that those were members of the IFP from Kwamadala Hostel. When I was in Baroleng Street, then I saw a large group of people. Fortunately when I arrived there I saw comrades from the township amongst them. Johannes was already taken outside, he was being asked questions and being assaulted. I asked him questions when I arrived, why they did what they did. He could not explain. What I heard from him was that he was in the company of other members of IFP and they've ran away with a car. That's how they survived. I did not ask more questions. I hacked him several times with my panga and the other group that I found there, they were doing the same, they were hacking him and dousing him with petrol. Then from that group a suggestion was made that he should be set alight. I also suggested that he should be burnt because he was a sell-out and at that time we knew that those people who were called ...(indistinct), they were members of the IFP. Unfortunately at that time the police arrived in a Casspir, together with the soldiers. That is how Johannes escaped, that is why he's still alive, even today. When the police and soldiers arrived tlere they dispersed our group and then we ran away to different places. MR KOOPEDI Did you anything personally for having participated in this action? MR HLONGWANE No, there is nothing that I got out of that. MR KOOPEDI Do you regard this attack as having being politically motivated? MR HLONGWANE Yes, because there was war at that time between the IFP and the ANC and the IFP people, like I've already testified, were people who were residents of Kwamadala Hostel and the ANC people were obviously residents of Boipatong. MR KOOPEDI Do you believe that you have fully disclosed all the relevant facts to this Honourable Committee? MR HLONGWANE That's correct. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that is the evidence from this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane, I have a similar problem with your application as that of Mr Mzumbe. You don't seem to have been part of the group that was attacked by Mr Selai, and in your evidence I understand that you were not at the tavern at the time they came to attack. But you further go on and say that it was alleged that he was apprehended by the group that he had attacked and that he was assaulted by them and set alight ultimately. Why is it that you never in your application, associated yourself with this incident, as it appears on page 19 of your application? MR HLONGWANE Like Comrade Mzumbe has already said, the conditions under which we filled these forms. The other thing that I realised is that the writing that appears here is mine. We filled these forms at the police station. I would ask this Committee to understand that we were under difficult conditions, it was not easy at that time to trust anybody and there was no other person who could help us concerning the filling of these forms. Because what I'm saying now before this Committee is the truth, but what is written here - like I said, we filled these forms at the police station and we were afraid that if we tell the truth that will result in us serving long sentences in prison. Or even those people who were present there could easily report that to the IFP and tell them that I was involved in the attack at Checkers Tavern. It was just a question of being afraid, but now I'm telling everything as it happened, there is nothing that I'm hiding here. MS MTANGA Your application is also slightly different from the two other applicants who have testified today, in that on page 18, paragraph 9A(4), you indicated that one of the reasons for attacking Johannes Selai is that he had rendered assistance to the IFP during the Boipatong massacre. Is this something you had heard or something you had direct knowledge of, that Johannes Selai had participated in the Boipatong massacre? MR HLONGWANE This thing regarding Mr Selai, I had already heard that, that he was a member of the IFP, he was a resident at Kwamadala Hostel. The day when I arrived at Checkers Tavern was when I realised that he was a member of the IFP. MS MTANGA Did you know Mr Selai before this incident? MR HLONGWANE Yes, I did. MS MTANGA Did you know him before the Boipatong massacre? MR HLONGWANE Yes, I had known him for many years because I attended school at Lebogang High School which was near his home. His home was facing that school that I was attending at that time. The other thing that made me to know him was that his younger brother who was a soldier at that time, that is Boy Selai, we used to play soccer together and we were attending the same school at Lebogang High School. So I knew his family, I knew him very well. MS MTANGA Did you know him as an IFP member at that time, that is before the Checkers Tavern incident? MR HLONGWANE Before the Checkers incident I had already heard that Johannes was already a member of the IFP, because people were changing their allegiance, today they will be comrades and on the other day they will be on the other side of the IFP. So when you see him on the other side, then you'll know that he's no longer on your side but he has now joined the IFP. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions? MR LAX Just one small thing, Chair. Mr Hlongwane, looking back now at this incident from where you sit today, how do you feel about it? MR HLONGWANE I feel very bad. All the time when I was outside, even in prison I've been troubled by this. This thing that happened at Checkers Tavern is something that I did not expect because those people of the IFP had already attacked the Boipatong people. I am not happy that we injured him and also I am not happy about what they also did at Boipatong. I feel very sorry to Johannes Selai and his family. MR LAX Thanks Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Re-examination, Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-exam, thanks Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Hlongwane, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, we beg leave to call the last applicant, Mr Patose.