amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-11 JOHANNESBURG 4 POKOMANE ALEX NDINISANE AM5906/97 ATTEMPTED MURDER ON JERRY NDEBELE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53889&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99110812_jhb_991111jb.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. On behalf of the applicant, Ms van der Westhuizen, do you just want to put yourself on record? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Anina van der Westhuizen, appearing on behalf of the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. And for the leader of evidence? MS MTANGA Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader. I will be assisting the families in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Chairperson, can I further place on record the names of the victims who have attended because we have encountered problems about other victims. The situation is that Mr Ndebele passed away. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, who's that? Who passed away? MS MTANGA Jerry Ndebele. He died in 1994 then the cause of death is unrelated to the incident here but he was shot at by unknown people. An advertisement was then placed in the Sowetan in October to try and locate his next of kin being the parents. That did not succeed because information was received that they had moved to KwaZulu and then in November another advertisement was place on ....(indistinct) trying to trace his parents. It was not known then that he was married and we've learned from the victims who have attended here today, Pendile Kabela that he was married to Pendile's sister and his wife is Happy Kabela. Because of this lack of knowledge Happy Kabela was not notified and she is not here today. The second victim who is in attendance is Nohlanhla Kabela who is the daughter of Kendile Kabela. They're both here, the mother and the daughter, they were shot at in the incident. The parents of Jabu Mbatha we were unable to locate. The same procedure was followed. An advertisement was place in the Sowetan and then they could not be located and information was obtained that they had moved to KwaZulu Natal, but the Kabela family could not confirm where they had moved to. Another advertisement was placed in the paper to locate them, that is the ...(indistinct). They have not contacted the TRC, so they have not attended the hearing. That is all I wish to place on record, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI May I just ask one question? In view of the fact that most of our people are not readers of newspapers and a request was made to investigators that also national radio stations and community radio stations broadcasting in African languages should be contacted to assist. Has that been done? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I carried over this matter. I was briefed about it and at the time of the briefing it was not indicated to me whether the victims were missing or not and according to the instructions I have here, no advertisement or no notice was given to the radio stations, only the newspapers were informed. MR LAX Do you have the details of the parents of Jabu Mbatha? Do you at least know their names? MS MTANGA Their names were not known at the time the advertisement was place, but I can ascertain that from the victims who are here because they do know the family. MR LAX Okay. CHAIRPERSON Happy Kabela, that you say is the wife, you only found out subsequently that she was married to Jerry Ndebele. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I've just gathered that information from one of the victims now. We were not aware. Even the office is still not aware that he was married and also that I had asked the family why did she not attend the hearing and I was advised that her employer refused to allow her to come here because she did not have any proof of notice being served on her. CHAIRPERSON There's no indication that she is in a position to shed any light on the merits of this application? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I've spoken to her on the phone and I asked her to write a statement about what she knows and then we agreed that I'd try and phone her over lunchtime and see if she'll manage to fax it because she'll try and - she said the only fax she can make use of that she has access to is a bit far from her work so she'll endeavour to have the statement faxed to me. CHAIRPERSON There is no indication whether she's got any ...(intervention) MS MTANGA Information? CHAIRPERSON Knowledge about the merits of what happened here? MS MTANGA When I spoke to her Chairperson, she works in an environment where she is rendering service to clients, to customers, she said she could not speak but she said she wanted, there is something she wanted to elaborate on, so I said whatever she wants to say she must just put down in writing and I told her what exactly would be, around the membership of her husband and what she knows was the cause of the attack in her knowledge. She has agreed to do that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, very well and you'll follow that up, you say, over lunchtime? MS MTANGA That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Ms van der Westhuizen do you want your client to be sworn in or is there anything else that you want to put on record? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Nothing, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. POKOMANE ALEX NDINISANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Westhuizen. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Honourable Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Mr Ndinisane, is it correct that you applied for amnesty for all the events that took place on the 16th of August 1993 at Zonkizizwe and more particularly the squatters hut at 1041? MR NDINISANE That is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN In your court trial, you were not convicted of attempted murder on Jerry Ndebele, is that correct? MR NDINISANE That's correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Is it also correct that you want to add this and also apply for amnesty for attempted murder on Jerry Ndebele? MR NDINISANE That is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, can you just briefly tell us about your political background when you lived in Thokoza? Just very briefly. MR NDINISANE I resided in Phola Park at Thokoza. There was violence that erupted and the conflict was between Zulu and Xhosa. Ultimately it led to political violence as well. Thereafter there was a full-scale war that went on and thereafter we were unable to remain at the hostel. The Zulus who had resided in Phola Park were driven out of that area and they fled to other areas because we had been defeated there. We then scattered to different places. I then left and went to reside at Thokoza Hostel. I remained there for a very brief time because after that I went to reside at Zonkizizwe. On my arrival there, I discovered that there was violence going on in that area because of the political dimension that had taken over the war between Zulu and Xhosa, the war there was between the ANC and the IFP. I resided there and that war was continuing. Ultimately the ANC was defeated and they were driven out of the area so as the IFP we remained in that area and it became an IFP stronghold. An argument, or some conflict erupted amongst the IFP members who remained in the area because of the money that was collected for firearms that we got for protection. The Chairperson of the organisation at that time was Mr Ndebele, but he had not been elected into the position, but it was because he had supported the organisation and it then seemed as if he was the Chairperson. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Just to interrupt you there, the Mr Ndebele that you are referring to, would that be Mr Jerry Ndebele? MR NDINISANE That is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Did you have any position at that stage in Zonkizizwe within the IFP? MR NDINISANE Please repeat that. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You yourself, did you have any position, for instance Secretary etc, within the IFP in Zonkizizwe? MR NDINISANE Yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN What is that? MR NDINISANE I was the Youth Leader. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You can continue to describe the dispute that erupted with Mr Ndebele. MR NDINISANE The dispute involved the monies that were collected and Mr Ndebele was advised to vacate his position because it appeared that his actions were now contrary to the policy of the organisation because for instance, the firearms that were bought could not be traced and on a particular day we went to him and requested to see the firearms. He produced only two firearms and he was asked as to why there were only two firearm, whereas monies had been collected all along. He said that some firearms had been confiscated by the police and he hadn't bought any other firearms. When we requested the balance of the cash that had been given to him, he could not produce it. He was then fired from that position and another committee was elected. After that election and the firearms had been removed from Mr Ndebele and entrusted to those people. After this incident he left the organisation and formed another organisation which he called the IFP. After that we did not really know what was happening with him. We then made attempts to reconcile with him so that there would not be these two camps within one organisation. He was not very keen to reconcile with us, instead he started attacking us. When these attacks occurred, we tried to contact people in senior leadership positions in the IFP and we did indeed call the leadership and this matter was discussed about Mr Ndebele, such that after that discussion at which he, Mr Ndebele himself was present, he then promised that he would no longer carry out his activities but these attacks carried on because some of our people were being killed. This led us to believe that Mr Ndebele was just fighting with us. In fact we believe that he did not wish for any reconciliation. At that time I did not feel that it would lead to him being attacked or killed but after several incidents where people were killed, he was involved and I learned of this after the death of Mr Ngobese, that he was indeed involved in the death of several people in the area. On the following day after Mr Ngobese's death, I managed to get one person who had been involved in that incident. I was with other people and we captured this person and we questioned him as to why we were being attacked. He then explained that they had been ordered and authorised by Mr Ndebele to come attack us because we had labelled him as an ANC member. This shocked me, but it did not shock me that much because I had once seen Mr Ndebele with an ANC member a Mr Prince who was an ANC leader at Phola Park. The same Mr Prince who had been responsible for our members being driven out of Phola Park. On questioning these people as to their actions, we inquired if they're soldiers, fit and proper to attack us and they said no, it was not so and they apologised for their acts. We then decided to take these people to the Induna because we wanted to inform our leaders of what was happening. We then took them to Mr Zitha, but we did not find him at home. We then went back with them. On our way back we met a certain person who was in cahoots with Mr Ndebele. We then stopped this person and informed him of what had transpired. After giving him that information, he told us that there was nothing he could do but we should not take any action. At that time it was not our intention to harm these people, so we let them go. On a Sunday we learned that Mr Ngobese had died in hospital. This affected me badly because already we were experiencing attacks on behalf of Mr Ndebele. After that I realised that there was no other option because had I gone to these Induna to inform them of my intentions, they would discourage me from carrying out my intended act. I then decided to just pick up my firearm and go to Mr Ndebele's house because there were many people who had been killed and on discussions with the Induna, they will just tell us to wait and not take any action and that did not help us but at the same time we were being slaughtered. Moreover the people who had been killed were very close to me because we were all members of the Youth Committee. Because this had affected me badly, I decided to carry out the act without informing the Indunas, I would do this after I had carried out the attack. I then went and carried out the attack. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Before you continue with what actually happened on that day, just to clarify it to the Honourable Committee, you mentioned, you actually testified very quickly here but what, did you believe that Mr Jerry Ndebele now joined the ANC, what was your thoughts on that and why did you think, if so, why did you think he was now an ANC supporter? MR NDINISANE I had seen him in the company of Mr Prince who was a leader in the ANC at Phola Park. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Where did you see him in the company of Prince? MR NDINISANE When I saw them they were on a road in Phola Park and I was in a taxi just passing past. It was not just the two of them, they were in the company of other people. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Okay. You can continue. What happened on that specific day? MR LAX Sorry. If I may interpose. When did you see this happen, this meeting between Prince and Ndebele? When was that, this incident where you saw them? MR NDINISANE I do not remember the date, because a long time has elapsed since. MR LAX Was it weeks before the incident, months before the incident, years before the incident, after it, whenever? MR NDINISANE It was less than a week before the incident. MR LAX Please continue. Sorry. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You can continue by telling what happened on that day when the shooting took place. MR NDINISANE I went into my room and I took a firearm that had been in my possession. I went to wait for him at a spot where I knew he would pass by. It was near the taxi rank. I waited there until the afternoon and he appeared at some point, I cannot remember the time. I then followed him. He was driving but his home was near the rank. He entered his house, parked the vehicle and then went inside the house. When he went into the house, I was at that time near the corner of that house. I was not aware that he had seen me following him and I went close by, I went to another corner of the house and as I approached the corner I saw about three kids outside the house. They were sitting around a fire. For the reason that I did not want to hurt innocent people I shot in the air so that the children could flee and I went right in front of them so that they would not flee in the direction of Mr Ndebele. They fled, scattered, towards the road and as they did so, I went inside. On my way in I heard gun shots which I did not know where they came from. I then realised that somebody was shooting at me. This made me angry and it shocked me. At that point I realised that I could not proceed further into the house, so I decided to just fire through the door, as I'd already realised that he was inside. I decided to then fire through the door and also go around the house firing so that he would think that it's not just me but there are a lot of us. That way I would then get the perfect opportunity to shoot at him if he flees from the house. I did not see him coming out but I started firing and everything happened very quickly. I was firing right around the shack and when I went back to the door to check if he's coming out or if he's running away, I did not see him. Because I was in shock, I fled after having fired those shots because I did not know whether there were other people who were in the house who had seen me ,,,(intervention) MR LAX Can you just slow down a little bit. I'm really struggling to keep up with your evidence and I'm sure the interpreter's struggling a bit and I'd hate us to lose some of the essence of what you're saying. So can you just go back a little bit please? I started losing you at the point where you were saying that you didn't see him coming out of the house and you were then looking through the doorway. Can you carry on from there please but just a little bit more slowly? MR NDINISANE As I had followed him, I saw him going into the house and at the time that he opened the door going into the house I was just around the corner and on my approach I saw children and I then fired in the air so that the children could flee and I went to stand directly in front of the children so that they do not flee into the house when I fire. This was to protect them from being fired at. I then proceeded to go into the house but on my way I heard gunshots and on hearing this, I was very shocked and feared that there might be other people inside the house or people who had seen me firing a shot in the air. I then started firing right around the shack. I then went back towards the door because I was expecting him to come out because when I fired around the shack I wanted him to gain the impression that there were a lot of people firing into the house and this would lead him to flee or come out of the house and when he did so, then I would be able to shoot at him. I then fired right around and when I returned to check, I realised that he had not come out and thereafter I fled because I thought that there could be people who saw me doing all this and maybe there were people who were inside the house who were his comrades. I then fled, went to my room. I then thought that I would get into trouble if I would be found with this firearm because it could be traced back to me but then I did not have any other firearm besides the one that is a big firearm. I then decided to remain with the firearm. On the following day the police arrived and I was arrested. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Before you continue, this firearm that you used, is it correct that that was an AK47 rifle? MR NDINISANE That is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now just to take you back a little bit. You say that you fired to scare off little children that you saw in the vicinity, how many shots did you fire? Was it one? MR NDINISANE Just once. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And from the trial I'm sure you learned that there were certain women coming out of the house that you actually injured and who, through your bullets, were hit by the bullets that you fired. Did you actually see these women coming out of the house? MR NDINISANE No, I did not see them because it all happened quickly and I was just firing wildly. Had I seen them, I would not have continued firing because my intention was not to kill or shoot them. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Therefore you didn't see any of them fall down or run away? MR NDINISANE No, I did not see any. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now can you explain to the Committee, what was your political motive for killing Mr Jerry Ndebele, or attempting to kill Mr Ndebele? What did you think were you achieving for the IFP? MR NDINISANE I would not particularly address myself to the IFP but the community would benefit in the sense that the attacks on the community would be ceased and the community would be free of those attacks. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You testified that you heard shots being fired at you, could you see where those shots were coming from and who was firing them? MR NDINISANE I do not know, I did not see where those shots were coming from. That is why I became very scared and started firing wildly, because I did not know what was happening at that time. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Would you agree with me that on that day when you set out to go to this house, you were going there to kill Mr Jerry Ndebele? MR NDINISANE That is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN So even if these shots weren't fired, you would have still tried to find him and kill him? MR NDINISANE Yes, I would have done so because my intention was to shoot him. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Am I right if I put it to you that this dispute that we're talking about first happened between, or it was first a dispute between IFP and IFP and it later turned into what you believe IFP/ANC? CHAIRPERSON Which dispute is that? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN This is basically the dispute started off by Mr Ndebele, his position, the question about money and him then breaking away and then later the applicant said he perceived him as now having joined the ANC. CHAIRPERSON No, but what has that got to do with the dispute? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN It's just what sparked off this whole incident. CHAIRPERSON Yes, no, no, I'm trying to understand what the perceived company of Mr Ndebele had to do with the dispute. I believe that he was seen, according to your client, he was seen in the street with a number of people including a certain Mr Prince. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Who was from the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now have you laid any basis for linking that to this dispute about the money? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN No, it's got actually nothing to do with the dispute about the money. It actually, the dispute about the money and the firearms actually led to Mr Ndebele eventually leaving the IFP according to this witness. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And then after he saw him in the company of the ANC representative or leader from Phola Park, a certain Mr Prince, I don't know if it's a name or a surname, and after reports about, after they captured certain people who gave them reports as well as where the instructions came from to attack IFP members, or some of their members, then he started believe it, it then in his mind became ANC. CHAIRPERSON No, I didn't know about that. Mr Ndinisane, these attacks that were launched on the members of the community where you were living, in your view, who was responsible for those attacks? MR NDINISANE Please repeat. CHAIRPERSON Were there attacks on the people who were living with you? MR NDINISANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON In your view, who was responsible for those attacks? MR NDINISANE As I've explained before, Mr Ndebele authorised those people to attack the community and the one person that we captured explained everything to us with regards to those attacks. He explained that they were responsible for carrying out those attacks on the orders of Mr Ndebele. CHAIRPERSON So was your view that Mr Ndebele was responsible for these attacks on the people that were living with you? MR NDINISANE I will say so because if I for instance send people to attack, I am responsible for those attacks. CHAIRPERSON So in your view it was Mr Ndebele that was behind these attacks? He ordered these people, these attackers to come and attack the people that were living with you? MR NDINISANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And is that why you went to attack him again? MR NDINISANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And if I understood you correctly, you said you don't want to speak about the IFP, you are speaking about the community and the objective of your attack was to benefit your community, to stop these attacks on your community. Did I hear you correctly? MR NDINISANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now, in your view, apart from Mr Ndebele, was there any organisation that was behind these attacks on the people that were living with you? MR NDINISANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Which organisation was that? MR NDINISANE The ANC. CHAIRPERSON The ANC. Which ANC is that, which - was it an ANC branch, was it, can you give us some more details? MR NDINISANE I'm referring to the ANC people who had been driven out of the area. They went and built shacks in the neighbourhood, in the neighbouring area and they would come in the evenings to carry out attacks. For instance the eNugeni place was attacked on one night. They were shot at and killed and they were all women and children. We tried to follow these people but we were unsuccessful because they fled into that very same area that the people who had fled Zonkizizwe resided. CHAIRPERSON So there was also a fight between the ANC and the IFP where you were living? In fact I think you have described it as a war, would that be right? MR NDINISANE Yes, there was violence but not inside our area. These ANC members lived in an area just close by. CHAIRPERSON Now what I can't understand and you must help me, where did Mr Ndebele fit into all this because he was also behind attacks you say. Now where did he fit into this picture that you have sketched to us? MR NDINISANE Mr Ndebele's problem started after we had encountered problems with him with regards to the mismanagement of the funds that had been collected for money and thereafter he was also seen in the company of ANC people. CHAIRPERSON Now at that time, when there was this problem with the money, about the money, were you already involved in fights between the IFP and the ANC? MR NDINISANE Yes, it had already started. CHAIRPERSON And was that why you had to buy those weapons that you spoke about? MR NDINISANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Right. Now then you had a disagreement with Mr Ndebele and he left and he formed his own organisation which he called the IFP as well. Am I still right? MR NDINISANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And then you had a meeting with the IFP leadership where Mr Ndebele was also present and where he said, Mr Ndebele said well he'll now stop the trouble, he'll now start working together. Is that still right, or what? MR NDINISANE Yes, he did not promise just me but the whole community as such. CHAIRPERSON But then there were further attacks on your community, is it right? MR NDINISANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Now you say that according to the people that you captured, Mr Ndebele authorised these attacks, right? MR NDINISANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Now apart from those attacks, were there still other attacks involving the ANC and the IFP, or was it only these attacks which Mr Ndebele was instigating? MR NDINISANE There were other incidents because there had been many instances where our members had been shot at. CHAIRPERSON Now those other instances, was that the fight that involved the ANC and the IFP? MR NDINISANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now, just explain if you can, did Mr Ndebele fight with the ANC or did he fight on his own against you, or what? What was the position? MR NDINISANE I would say these attacks that were carried out by Mr Ndebele, he did this in cahoots with the ANC because if that was not the case, he would not have continued and carried out attacks against members of the same organisation that he belonged to. That is why I say he was involved with the ANC although the people that he was close to, were not aware that he now collaborated with ANC leaders, but in my opinion, he now belonged to the other camp because he would not have proceeded and attacked his fellow members of the IFP particularly after we had had the discussion. CHAIRPERSON So in your view then, he was no longer IFP, he was no longer a break-away, he no longer led a break-away IFP group, he had now joined the ANC. Is that correct? MR NDINISANE That is correct. He was trying to make attempts not to alarm these followers, these IFP followers that he had not - he was trying that they do not catch up with him that he was now in cahoots with the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I'm not sure, but any case Ms van der Westhuizen. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Honourable Chairperson. I notice it is already 1 o'clock. I might just have one or two questions to clear up certain aspects. Would it be - can we probably adjourn at this stage? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn until 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION POKOMANE ALEX NDINISANE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms van der Westhuizen, you said you had a few questions left. EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN (cont.) Thank you Honourable Chairperson, there are actually no further questions left, but the applicant just said that he wanted to add something to his evidence. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Well Mr Ndinisane, you want to add something to what you've said, you can go ahead. MR NDINISANE I would like to say that with regards to what I did and to what happened to innocent people, I would like to apologise to them because it was not my intention to harm them. I would like to ask for forgiveness. It was due to the situation that I went out to carry out this act and it was directed only to the person intended, not the other innocent people. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Chairperson, we do not intend calling any other witnesses, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Ms Mtanga, have you got any questions? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson. Chairperson, before I commence with my cross-examination, can I place on record, the mother of Jerry Ndebele has arrived. Her name is Zishiela Dlamini. MR LAX Just repeat that again, sorry. MS MTANGA Her name is Zishiela Dlamini. Her contact address is 5395 Zone 5, Zonkizizwe, that's where the brothers of Jerry Ndebele live. And I am still waiting for the statement of Happy Kabela, she said she sent someone to fax it for her, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay, we note that. You can go ahead. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Ndinisane in your testimony today you testified that at the time the dispute arose within the IFP, Mr Ndebele was removed from his position, who removed him? MR NDINISANE He was removed by the Community. MS MTANGA What was the position of Mr Ndebele at that time? MR NDINISANE He was a community leader and he was also a leader within the IFP. MS MTANGA When you say he was a community leader, was there a structure in the community that he belonged to, that he also led, was there a structure? MR NDINISANE Please repeat the question. MS MTANGA Within the community, you said he was a leader of the IFP and the leader of the community, can you indicate whether there was a structure in both the IFP and the community that he belonged to? Was he just a leader on his own in the community and also a leader on his own in the IFP without any other people assisting him? Was there something like a committee or a structure within the community of the IFP to which he belonged as a leader? Can you explain that? MR NDINISANE No. At that time no person had been elected as a leader or had been assigned a portfolio. As I explained before he had not been elected into that office, but it was because of the assistance that he rendered to the community, but there were no structures at that time. MS MTANGA According to the family of Mr Ndebele, Mr Ndebele formed - he was a leader of a structure that dealt with the problems of the IFP at Zonkizizwe, so there was something like a committee which he belonged to, so there was a structure of leadership within the community or within the IFP that he was operating within. What do you say to this? MR NDINISANE As I explained before, I would agree with that assertion that he was a member of a certain committee, but that committee had not been voted into office, so no one had a distinct portfolio of the positions that they held within the community. MS MTANGA The family also goes on to say that he was known as the Mayor, do you know if Mr Ndebele was called the Mayor, or was he perceived as the Mayor by both the community and the IFP which was more or less one thing, because the community was an IFP stronghold area anyway? MR NDINISANE From the way things ran, I would say that yes, he was a leader, but I would not call him a Mayor. He was a leader within the community as well as within the IFP, but he was not a Mayor. MS MTANGA When he was removed from his position as a leader, who took over from him? MR NDINISANE It was Mr Samuel Ngobane. That was a person elected by the IFP. MR MTANGA According to the family of Mr Ndebele, Mr Ndebele was never removed by the IFP from his position, he was never removed. He stayed in that structure as a leader and what in fact took place, Mr Simon Ngobane formed his new structure which they referred to as committee, so at Zonkizizwe at the time, in 1993, there were two committees which were competing against each other, one led by Simon Ngobane and the other one led by Mr Ndebele. What do you say to this? MR NDINISANE That puzzles me because as I explained before, there were later two opposing groups after Mr Ndebele had broken away to form his own group and I was present as a Youth Leader and I witnessed and knew who did what and I knew what position a person held. With regard to that allegation that Mr Ngobane is the one who broke away to form his own group is not true. Maybe they were not aware of how things progressed when the other committee was elected. MS MTANGA The family further on says that the committee formed by Mr Ngobane came to be known as the new committee and Mr Ndebele's committee was known as the old committee and further that when they dealt with community issues, the people had a choice which committee they favoured, it was not an issue of whose side you are, you just decided which committee you would approach to deal with your problems but both committees were serving the IFP, or IFP followers in the area and were know to be IFP committees who were just competing with each other. What do you say to this? MR NDINISANE That is puzzling to me. After that split, the community was divided into two because as I explained before there were people who followed Mr Ndebele so it is true that some of the people would approach Mr Ndebele and others would approach Mr Ngobane but it was not for the reason that Mr Ndebele still held that position. It is just that his followers would contact him or would approach him, but those who were not his followers would not do so, but there was never a new or old committee. But after Mr Ndebele has split away to form his own group, that would be the new group, because we did not regard them as legitimate. MS MTANGA Mr Ndinisane I get your point. I further wish to put it to you, I won't lead evidence in this regard, but according to your evidence, Mr Ndebele was attacked on the 16th of August 1993 and according to your current councillor, when he arrived in the area that is after this incident had taken place, the two structures were still in existence and they were both known as IFP even though he doesn't know the source of the conflict but a long time the conflict was still in existence and I'm not going to lead this evidence, I'm just putting it to you for your comment, the two structures were still in existence and they were both known to be IFP structures and then later these were reconciled by Temba Xhosa, or attempts were made by, amongst other people, Temba Xhosa to bring together the two structures and that did take place. What do you say to this? MR NDINISANE I cannot comment on the reconciliation. INTERPRETER The applicant said he cannot comment on the reconciliation because he has been away in prison. MS MTANGA I am asking you Mr Ndinisane to comment about the fact that even after this incident in, your reason for attacking Mr Ndebele was that he had formed this new organisation and you had a suspicion that he was an ANC member. What I'm saying to you is that according to the councillor of Zonkizizwe, the person who is a current councillor of Zonkizizwe now, after the incident, he moved into Zonkizizwe after the incident where Mr Ndebele had been attacked and even at that time when he moved to Zonkizizwe there were these two structures and they were both known to be IFP structures even though they were not getting along or they were competing with each other but they were still viewed as IFP structures. I'm asking you to comment on that. MR NDINISANE I would agree with you that there were indeed two camps. As I mentioned earlier on, after Mr Ndebele had been removed from his position, he formed another group and in that way the community was divided into two. There were people who followed him and he called that group the IFP and that was the very same group that he led. MS MTANGA Mr Ndinisane what I'm trying to get at is that even at the time you attacked Mr Ndebele and even at the time after the attack on Mr Ndebele, he was viewed by some people, by the people in the area as IFP and your information that he was an ANC was not common knowledge in the area. What do you say to this? He may have been in conflict with another IFP group, but he remained IFP and his structure was well-known as an IFP structure, that's what I wanted you to comment on. I know you had removed him from his own structure, according to you, but that structure was still known as IFP. Do you dispute that it was known as IFP and viewed so by a majority of people in the area, but they were just in conflict with each other? MR NDINISANE It was known as an IFP group, but that was the perception amongst his own followers, that is the community that followed him, but we and the community that had removed him from office, did not regard him as a person who was still our ally or who was still a member of the IFP because of his activities. He did form that group and he did call it an IFP group, but it was no longer a legitimate group in the community because he had already been removed from the position that he held, by the community. MS MTANGA I wish to put it to you Mr Ndebele that there's a difference of opinion as to whether he was removed or another Committee was formed in a way to replace what his committee was doing but he was there operating in that old structure he was in. You can comment on that and then I'll move on, if you want to comment. MR NDINISANE It is difficult for me to comment because what I know is that we removed him from that position and he was no longer a leader in the community. MS MTANGA I understand your position. CHAIRPERSON Well, Mr Ndinisane, those people that supported Mr Ndebele, were they IFP members? MR NDINISANE Those people were the very same people who had been in the leadership with him in the IFP. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now the group, look you say that he formed his own group, now those people that were in his group, were they IFP members? MR NDINISANE Yes, they were IFP members. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson. You also testified that before you moved to Zonkizizwe you resided at Phola Park. When was this? In which year was it? MR NDINISANE ...(not translated) MS MTANGA When did you reside at Phola Park? MR NDINISANE It was 1988 and 1989 as well as 1990. MS MTANGA And when were you driven out of Phola Park by, your testimony was that there was, a dispute arose between Zulus and Xhosas and then Zulus were driven out of Phola Park and that's when you left Phola Park. When did you move out of, when were you driven out of Phola Park? MR NDINISANE The hostel and shacks were demolished in 1990. MS MTANGA At the time when you were driven out, were all Zulu speaking people who were alleged to be IFP, driven out or were there some people left behind? MR NDINISANE I am not in a position to clarify that because I do not know about the people who remained, so I'm not in a position to say who left and who remained. I can only comment on the people that I left with. MS MTANGA So you don't know if there were IFP or Zulu people were in conflict with the Xhosa at that time who were left in Phola Park, you don't know? MR NDINISANE No, I do not know. MS MTANGA In your testimony you testified that you saw Mr Ndebele in the company of Prince and this was on some street at Phola Park. What were you doing at Phola Park? MR NDINISANE As I explained earlier, I was in a taxi, travelling in a taxi and when we passed by there I saw him in the company of Mr Prince and others. He was there on the road. MS MTANGA Why did your taxi go past Phola Park? MR NDINISANE It was a road that was used from Thokoza to Zonkizizwe. MS MTANGA Were you the only person who saw Mr Ndebele with this person known as Prince? MR NDINISANE I was with Alfred Ngobese, the late Alfred Ngobese, when I saw him. MS MTANGA I will move on to the incident. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just a minute Ms Mtanga. I don't understand this. Were these people walking in the street, Mr Ndebele and Mr Prince and I assume from what you said, the group of people? MR NDINISANE When I saw them they were standing. CHAIRPERSON In the street, the group of people? MR NDINISANE They were standing as if they were deep in discussion. CHAIRPERSON The taxi was just driving past? MR NDINISANE Yes, it was driving past. CHAIRPERSON Like these taxis normally drive, they just go past? MR NDINISANE It was driving past, but it had stopped to off-load some passengers, in fact the taxi stopped just a distance after we had passed them. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't know what they were doing then? MR NDINISANE Yes, I'm not in a position to say what they were doing. It had just shocked me to see him standing with an ANC leader, people we were in conflict with. CHAIRPERSON But you didn't know what they were doing, whether they were arguing or whether they were debating or whether they were talking about the weather, you can't say what they were doing there. Wouldn't that be right? MR NDINISANE I am not in a position to explain what was happening, but it did not look as if they'd been arguing because it is possible to tell if people are having a debate or an argument. CHAIRPERSON And is this the reason why you say that Mr Ndebele joined the ANC, or he was fighting on the side of the ANC against you? MR NDINISANE That was the second reason because even within the township some of our members had been killed because of him. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Ms Mtanga. MR LAX Just one question while we're on this if I may Chair, before it gets cold, so to speak. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LAX Why didn't you contact the IFP leaders and say to them: "Look man, I've seen this man with this well-known ANC leader. Why don't you call him in and discipline him for this and ask him what on earth's going on here?" MR NDINISANE I did contact the IFP leaders. I went to the Induna Mr Mbatha and informed him that I had seen him at such and such a place. He then promised to discuss it with other leaders, but I never got any feedback as to what had happened. MR LAX So they never did anything about it? MR NDINISANE I would say they didn't do anything about it because nothing happened about it thereafter. I never heard of anything. MR LAX Please continue Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ndinisane I put it to you that you are lying about having seen Mr Ndebele with this person on his premises. What do you say to this? You are conveniently fabricating evidence to give an impression that Mr Ndebele was a political enemy. MR NDINISANE What I have said is what I know and what I witnessed. I would not come here to seek for forgiveness for something that is not true. I am talking about something that I know and something that I witnessed. MS MTANGA My next question is, you indicated in your evidence that you didn't tell the Induna of Zonkizizwe about your intended attack on Mr Ndebele, did I understand you correctly when I say that? You did not inform him or get an approval from him. MR NDINISANE Yes, that is correct, I did not inform the Induna. CHAIRPERSON The other part of the question is, and is it correct that you didn't get his approval, or her approval, I'm not sure? MR NDINISANE Please repeat that. CHAIRPERSON The second part of Ms Mtanga's question was, you didn't get the approval of the Induna for the action that you took. MR NDINISANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS MTANGA Why did you not inform the Induna? MR NDINISANE As I mentioned before, I had already realised that we were being slaughtered. I could even be the next victim. We would report these matters to them, but they did not want to take any action about it, that is why I decided to take the matter into my own hands because I could see that they had no intentions of doing anything about it except for contacting the leadership of the IFP when we needed to discuss the matter with Mr Ndebele. MS MTANGA Mr Ndinisane if I recall what your evidence was in addition to what you've just indicated now, you also said that you didn't tell the Induna because you knew he would not approve of your actions. I'm not sure if I took my notes correctly, but that's what I have on my notes. You said you knew he wouldn't approve of your actions in fighting that Mr Ndebele. MR NDINISANE That is so because he had not approved of my decision even before, that is why I decided to take it into my own hands. MS MTANGA Chairperson, can I just correct, it wasn't even before, he said from the very beginning, that's my interpretation. The interpretation, it was not before, he said from the beginning. CHAIRPERSON You said that the proper interpretation ...(intervention) MS MTANGA The Zulu that he used was ...(ethnic) and then the interpretation said even before, but the appropriate one would be "from the very beginning". CHAIRPERSON From the very beginning? MS MTANGA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you agree, does the interpreter agree? INTERPRETER Generally yes. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Generally we'll accept that. MS MTANGA Mr Ndinisane, when you went to attack Mr Ndebele, you've given evidence that you'd been following him and you followed him into his home. My question to you is, at the time you fired shots at the house, were you not concerned that there could have been people who had nothing to do with Mr Ndebele's actions, such as his wife, his children, or the family? MR NDINISANE That did not occur to me because I'd already fired a shot whilst I was outside, that is after I had seen the children playing there. MS MTANGA What was your attitude towards people who were in the same house as Mr Ndebele? What was your attitude about them getting injured or killed? MR NDINISANE Please repeat the question. MS MTANGA I'm asking you what was your attitude about the people who could have been in the house as there were indeed people in the house. What was your attitude at the time you were shooting or firing shots at the house? Did you care that they could get injured? What was your attitude towards them when you were firing shots? Did you care that they could get injured, or did you not care, or get killed by your shooting? Did you want them injured, what was your attitude towards them? MR NDINISANE No, I did not intend to injure or kill anyone else because my intention was to get Mr Ndebele. That is the reason why I fired a shot in the air, so that the children flee but when I heard gunfire, I thought that he was the person firing, because he had become a danger in the community, that is the reason why I started firing, but it was not my intention to kill anyone else inside. It did not occur to me that there might be somebody inside the house because when he went into the house, he opened the door that had been closed. I'm not even sure whether it was locked or not. Therefore I had not intended to injure or kill other people, just him. MS MTANGA Mr Ndinisane, you could not have thought that there were no people inside this house. You had followed Mr Ndebele and you had noticed children sitting around the fireplace outside, so you couldn't have thought that there were no people in the house if there was a fire on outside the very shack which you fired shots at. MR NDINISANE I do not understand that. MS MTANGA I am saying that I disagree with you when you say that you didn't think there were people inside. I am saying, you could not have thought there were no people outside when you had seen children sitting outside around a fireplace, around a fire that was on. MR NDINISANE It was difficult for me to have such thoughts, because everything happened very quickly, so you could not sit down and think about, are there people inside or not. My sole intention was to get this person and kill him, that was all. MS MTANGA Further to this point, Mr Ndinisane, one of the victims, Pumelele Sithole gave evidence in court that he had spotted you carrying a firearm and then when you noticed her, you pointed the firearm at her and fired a shot at her, which injured her. What do you say to this? You had seen her and you fired shots at her and she was a female and you, outside the shack and Ndebele was inside the shack. What do you say to this? MR NDINISANE I will say it is possible that she saw me, but I did not see her. She may have thought that I saw her but because of the situation that I had heard gunshots from elsewhere, I was very shocked and I did everything very quickly. I'll not dispute that she may have seen me, but I did not see her because had I seen her I would not have shot at her because she was not my target. MS MTANGA It was also noted by the court that you shot Pumelele at a distance of about 5 to 6 metres. MR NDINISANE As I said before, I did not see her. That is why I do not even know the distance that she was away from me. I didn't see her. MS MTANGA Another person Kendile Kabela, she's also a victim in this incident, she also saw you outside, these are people who heard the shots and ran towards the shack that you were firing shots at and when you saw her you fired shots at her and according to her, she's here to give evidence to that effect, you looked at her and you fired shots towards her direction, at her and she had used her arm to shield your shot. What do you say to this? And she was facing you and you were facing her. MR NDINISANE I would not dispute it, but I did not see her because after firing those shots I fled because as I said before, after hearing those shots, I was not sure who was firing. Was it Mr Ndebele or another person in the vicinity, so I did not see her as well. I will not dispute if she says so, but I did not see her. MS MTANGA Mr Ndinisane, I put it to you that you are lying when you say you never intended to kill other people who were living with Mr Ndebele. I put it to you that when you went to Mr Ndebele's house, you knew he could be with other people in that house and you fired shots in all directions of the house as this was evidenced before the court and further to that you fired shots at two females whom you had sufficient time to look at and see who they were and that you target was inside the shack at that time, so I put it to you that you didn't care who you were shooting, you were just there to shoot everyone, what do you say to this? MR NDINISANE That is not so, I did care because I knew very well who my target was. It is not true that I went out to kill any person I encountered because I knew very well who I had intended to kill. If my intention was to kill everyone, I would have shot at those children who were outside but since that was not my intention to kill innocent people, I fired the shots outside so that the children could flee. If my intention was to kill everyone and anyone, I would have shot at those children first. i fired that shot so that the children could flee so as not to injure innocent people. MS MTANGA Finally Mr Ndinisane, you testified that you learned from some people you had captured that Mr Ndebele was responsible for the attacks on your group. Do you recall that? MR NDINISANE Yes. MS MTANGA Why did you not take these people that you captured to the Induna? MR NDINISANE I did explain that we took them to the Induna's house but unfortunately he was not at home and we returned with them and on our way back we met the supporter of Mr Ndebele and after having discussed the issue with him, we set the people free. MR LAX May I just interpose here? Why didn't you take them to the police? You caught these people, they were busy with violent actions against you, they confessed to you that they'd been instructed by a certain person, why didn't you just take them to the police? MR NDINISANE At that time it was very difficult for us to take them to the police because the police were aligned to Mr Ndebele because in instances where something happened, it was our supporters who were generally arrested and imprisoned, so it was difficult for us to take them to the police because we could end up being arrested, particularly because our firearms were not licensed. MS MTANGA I put it to you Mr Ndinisane that this offence you are applying for could not have furthered the political objectives of the IFP because you had not received authority from the organisation to carry out this offence, that's number 1. What do you say to this? MR NDINISANE I would say it would have benefitted the IFP because were it not for my action, the IFP community would not have been free of these attacks because there had been many such attacks carried out by Mr Ndebele's people. I did this knowing well that the community would at least be free because this person was now a danger because of his activities against the community. MS MTANGA Mr Ndinisane, secondly, your attack on Mr Ndebele seems to be a one man action. You are the one who saw Mr Ndebele with this ANC person that you allege, the incident you allege you saw on the road at Phola Park. You are the very person who captured the people who told you that Mr Ndebele was responsible for the attacks and you are the very person who goes out and kills Mr Ndebele, admittedly against the approval of your organisation because you knew they wouldn't approve of it. How can you say this was furthering the political objective of your organisation when you knew they wouldn't approve? MR NDINISANE I am saying that what I did furthered the objectives of the community I resided, the IFP community of Zonkizizwe. This action helped the community in the sense that they were now free because they no longer lived in fear because Mr Ndebele had used these people to launch the attacks so that people would fear him and they would also turn to his group. MS MTANGA Finally, Mr Ndinisane, I put it to you that your actions at the most furthered the objectives of the one faction of the IFP that you belonged to and had nothing to do with the overall interest of the IFP. It was a faction fight within the IFP and you were furthering the interests of one faction. What do you say to this? MR NDINISANE I would not dispute that because the action helped the people who had been traumatised and been harassed by these actions and we, as the people who had been protecting that community. MS MTANGA I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ma'am. Has the Panel got any questions? MR SIBANYONI Yes, Mr Chairperson. Mr Ndinisane, on page 4 of the bundle, at the end of paragraph 9 sub-paragraph 4, which started on the previous page, but I'm referring to page 4 at the end of that paragraph which says "He then killed two friends of mine, Jabulane Kunene and Alfred Ngobese. I was very angered especially at the death of Alfred which was the last death." It seems what prompted you to take action was the killing of your friends. What do you say about that? MR NDINISANE That is true but those friends were not just friends but they were friends within the IFP committee and I was close to them because of our being members of that Youth Committee. This worried me greatly and that was the motivation why I took my firearm and went to approach him and confront him directly. MR SIBANYONI Apart from seeing the deceased in the company of Prince as you allege, was there anything which he did which made you suspicious that he was connected to the ANC? MR NDINISANE Yes. MR SIBANYONI And what is it? MR NDINISANE That was his sending people to attack and kill IFP members whereas he also is in the same organisation. MR SIBANYONI Those people he sent, do you know to which organisation did they belong? MR NDINISANE No I did not have knowledge to that effect. MR SIBANYONI Who taught you to use an AK47? Who trained you? MR NDINISANE No person trained me but I observed other people, other members like Ngobese who used to use these firearms and I do not know whether they had been trained or not, that is how I have learned how to use it. MR SIBANYONI As you were shooting, was your AK47 on automatic or was it on manual? MR NDINISANE It was on automatic mode. MR SIBANYONI It seems on the day you took action, you were not acting in your capacity as an IFP member, but you took your own initiative. What do you say about that? MR NDINISANE I cannot really elaborate on that, but I carried out the action to free the community which had been suffering therefore all that I did, I did to protect the community as well as within the confines of the organisation. MR SIBANYONI But you said you kept it a secret to the organisation, to the Induna because he wouldn't have approved of it. Do you remember saying that? MR NDINISANE Yes, I did hide it for the reason that there had been many instances and when informed about these instances, they did not agree, they did not approve that we take action to correct a situation, that was the reason why I was forced to take the firearm and do it on my own. It was difficult for me to go to the Induna because he would have refused. MR LAX Just to be fair to the witness ... MR SIBANYONI I am through. MR LAX Just to be fair to the witness, he did say in his evidence in chief that he had intended after he had shot this man, to go and speak to the Induna. He did say that in his evidence in chief. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Ms van der Westhuizen? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you, none, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is that the case for the applicant? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Chairperson, if I can just ask for an opportunity just to take instructions from him specifically relating to a witness who might be able to assist us as far as the structures of the IFP in the area is concerned, nothing further than that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you. Chairperson it seems that there might be a person present. May I ask just for a very short adjournment of 5 minutes, just so that I can speak to him and see whether he feels that he can contribute in it? CHAIRPERSON Yes. We'll stand down for 5 minutes, but I don't know if there's any dispute about the structures of the IFP. There might not be any dispute. You might be well advised to speak to Ms Mtanga and hear if there's any dispute about the structures of the IFP. I don't think there's very much that turns on that. It doesn't seem to be in dispute. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Chairperson except that the evidence under cross-examination, it was put to him that there was very much two structures, the old one which was led by Mr Ndebele and was basically still in place as it was and it's just on that aspect. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Your client seems to have agreed but he's just swopping the roles around. He says well Mr Ndebele's one would be the new one because he broke away from the establishment. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN If she's not going to take it much further, I'm gong to leave it at that and just conclude the evidence. MS MTANGA Chairperson, if I may add to that? The applicant also indicated that when, according to when Ndebele was removed, the other people were with him in the leadership so that could have been what was perceived as the structure. The leaders that were with him went with him. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MTANGA And he conceded that in his evidence. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it seems as if the applicant agrees that Mr Ngobane formed, led one and I think in his view it is the authentic IFP structure in that particular place and that Mr Ndebele was the break-away faction and in terms of labels it doesn't seem to be neither here nor there. He said when you questioned him, he said well if there was a new committee it would have been Mr Ndebele's one because he broke away. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, I'm going to not waste time then and leave it at that and that would be then the case for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Very well, Ms van der Westhuizen. Yes Mr Ndinisane thank you very much. You're excused. MR NDINISANE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga you were referring to a witness. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I'm reconsidering my position as to whether I should call the witness. I will not call any further witness. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Ms van der Westhuizen, have you got any submissions on the merits of this application? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN IN ARGUMENT Thank you Honourable Chairperson. I'm going to be very short. I'm first going to submit that the applicant complies with the formal requirements of the Act and then secondly that it is clear that from his evidence that he believed that he acted in furtherance of a political objective. His motive being that he wanted to kill this person whom he believed was now carrying on attacks on the IFP and whom he also saw in the presence of the ANC leader, a one Mr Prince, in Phola Park, who is actually a known, or was a known ANC leader in that area. On his evidence as to whether he wanted to involve other people apart from Mr Jerry Ndebele, it is clear also as it appears from the small portion of the record of the trial that is attached to this bundle, that he indeed fired one shot. From the evidence it's clear that the two women then went outside or especially the mother went outside to call the child and was thereafter shot, or was hit by some of the bullets coming from the applicants gun. As he indeed stated, if he didn't really care about who he was going to kill there, he could have easily shot these children. It might very well be that he acted very negligently in running around shooting at this shack, but one should look at how he perceived the situation at that particular time. He also testified that because of the attacks by, or the attacks on the IFP in that area, he believed that Jerry was acting in cahoots with the ANC since, if he was not in cahoots with the ANC, he would not have actually attacked his own people. And then I would further submit that he indeed made full disclosure of the facts and of the events as he saw it on that particular day and therefore beg the Honourable Committee to consider granting him amnesty. As it pleases the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Ms Mtanga, any submissions? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson. MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT Mr Chairperson it is my submission on behalf of the family that the applicant acted on his own without the approval of the IFP that he alleges to have been acting on behalf of. He acted without the authority or without any order from the IFP and he has testified that he knew the Induna whom he regarded as the person who could have been the authority would not have approved of his actions, but he went on without his approval and attacked Mr Ndebele. It is further my submission on behalf of the family that the applicant cannot be granted amnesty because the victim, Mr Ndebele was not a political opponent of the applicant. he didn't belong to an organisation that was publicly known to be an opponent of the IFP. He was still a member at the time of this incident, but he belonged to a faction within the IFP that was in conflict with the applicant's group. I further submit that the applicant cannot be considered for amnesty in respect of the attacks on the people who were inside the house and the persons who shot outside the house, those being Kendile Kabele and Pumelele Sithole, the death of Jabu Kabela, the reason being that in his actions, he cannot testify even if the Committee were to find that he was justified, there was a political justification in killing Mr Ndebele, there cannot be justification for killing these other people as their killing could not further the political objective of the IFP. They could not have been perceived by the applicant as political opponents of the IFP at that time. I therefore request the Committee to refuse the applicant's amnesty application. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Is there anything else that you wanted to add, Ms van der Westhuizen? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Nothing Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. That concludes the formal proceedings. We will have to consider the matter and we will endeavour to come to a decision on the application as soon as circumstances permit and in the circumstances we will then reserve the decision in the matter and express our thanks to Ms van der Westhuizen for your assistance and to Ms Mtanga for your assistance as well and we will excuse you if you don't have any further business here. Ms Mtanga there is one matter that remains on the roll if I'm not mistaken. MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, that is the amnesty application of Nkosi. CHAIRPERSON Nkosi. Very well. We're not going to rise. We'll give you an opportunity to just rearrange things and then we will proceed to do the third application. So will you bring Mr Nkosi forward and will the legal representatives also just take up their places? MS MTANGA Chairperson can I just get two seconds to speak to the family?