amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-16 PRETORIA 2 JAKOB FRANCOIS KOK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53898&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991116pt.htm MR LAX Are those your full names, Mr Kok. JAKOB FRANCOIS KOK (sworn states) MR LAX You may be seated. Witness sworn in, Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Page 119, Chairperson. Mr Kok, to prevent any confusion on the record, you are Japie Kok. MR J F KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS You completed an amnesty application in the case of Dirk Coetzee and Bheki Mlangeni and you did not make use of a legal representative when you wrote this. MR J F KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm the content of this amnesty application as it appears in this application? MR J F KOK Yes, I do confirm it. MR BOOYENS Mr Kok, in short, you heard the evidence of Wal du Toit, you also read his application documents. Do you confirm that? MR J F KOK Yes, I do. MR BOOYENS Steve Bosch came to you at a certain stage with a request, is that correct? MR J F KOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Could you tell us in short what his request was and what you did. MR J F KOK Mr Bosch came to me on a certain day with an instruction from Col de Kock that a parcel must be prepared to eliminate Dirk Coetzee. They came with a suggestion or an idea of a tape recorder or a radio, but we had to see what was practical. MR BOOYENS After the request did you talk to anybody about it? MR J F KOK I said to him that we have to go and get some clearance from Col du Toit, to get authorisation before we can continue. MR BOOYENS Did he tell you who sent him to you? MR J F KOK He said that de Kock sent him. MR BOOYENS You then went to Wal du Toit. MR J F KOK Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And you then told him about the request. MR J F KOK Yes, I did. MR BOOYENS And what was du Toit's reaction, what was your conclusion? MR J F KOK That he already knew about the request that would come, and then he said that we can continue and start working on the package. MR BOOYENS You then had the authorisation to continue? MR J F KOK That's correct. MR BOOYENS Did you have any reason to doubt that Col du Toit considered it or that he had instructions from a higher level? MR J F KOK I had no reason to doubt him because he wouldn't have allowed me to continue without it being authorised. MR BOOYENS And just in short, although it was not within your discretion who the targets were or were not, in many cases you did not know who the targets were and as my learned friend said, sometimes you had a job card without knowing who the targets were. MR J F KOK That is correct, we were not involved in target analysis. MR BOOYENS But in this case it was told who the target was. MR J F KOK Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And it was not a type of target that made you surprised in any way, under the circumstances? MR J F KOK That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Your brother, Mr Kobus Kok and yourself discussed the practical aspects of this matter. MR J F KOK That is correct, Chairperson. Myself and Sgt Bosch first went out to go and buy a walkman. After Col du Toit gave us the authorisation we went to go and buy a walkman in order to look at the possibilities of the execution. MR BOOYENS And afterwards you started working on a practical way in which to do this and Kobus worked with you. MR J F KOK Yes, automatically I would draw Kobus in and we worked together and we planned it together and how we could practically execute this. MR BOOYENS And at a certain stage you got other responsibilities and you dropped out of this. MR J F KOK Yes, I was out of town for a few days and then Kobus continued with the project. MR BOOYENS And did you at any stage see the completed product, or the device? MR J F KOK No, I never saw the final product, just when I came back he just told me that he did complete it and executed it and the package is on its way. MR BOOYENS So do you apply for amnesty for any offence and that is the attempted murder on Mr Coetzee and the death of Mr Bheki Mlangeni? MR J F KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm your application? MR J F KOK Yes, I do. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions for this witness. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Kok, initially you said that the idea was to use a tape recorder, who came up with the walkman suggestion? MR J F KOK Chairperson, in the discussion while we talked about what our options were and we thought about what was the most practical and what would work the best, it came out at that stage that the cheapest thing would be a walkman. MR LAMEY Was that with the first visit from Mr Bosch? MR J F KOK Yes, that was the first visit to me, that was after we got the authorisation and talked about it, that was the discussion. MR LAMEY Was that now after the discussion with your commander, Wal du Toit? MR J F KOK That is correct. MR LAMEY Or did it happen in the office of Wal du Toit? MR J F KOK No, it was after we left du Toit's office and we came to my office and we started discussing the possibilities. MR LAMEY But did you say it was better to use a walkman? MR J F KOK It is difficult to say it was me, but it was a joint discussion and that's when we came up with this idea. It was a joint planning session. MR LAMEY Because Mr Bosch said that he remembered that at one stage he was requested to go and buy a walkman, but before that he cannot remember where it was mentioned, and then he in the end went to go and buy it. MR J F KOK That may be his recollection, but I remember that that same day we drove off to go and buy a walkman. MR LAMEY That same day? MR J F KOK Yes, out of my office we went, it was within ...(intervention) MR LAMEY But wouldn't Mr Bosch have to put in a false claim to get funds? MR J F KOK In practice it didn't work that you first get money and then go and buy it, if you had enough money with you, you could pay for it and then claim it back later. MR LAMEY Because I do not understand, he wouldn't have known at that stage that he had to go and buy something. MR J F KOK We had instructions to go and make this thing work. From Technical side we cannot do it if we haven't got something to work with. MR LAMEY How many walkmans were bought, one or two? MR J F KOK I think the first time we went we only bought one. It could have been that at a later stage there was another request for another one, and that could perhaps support Mr Bellingan's evidence that he went with Mr Bosch to go and buy a walkman. It could maybe confirm that. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR LAMEY Oh, I see. Do you know anything about the tapes? MR J F KOK No, I cannot remember anything about tapes. At that stage there was no mention made about the tapes, so I do not know what they are talking about. MR LAMEY Your brother, may he know something about that? MR J F KOK Yes, possibly. MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAUTENBACH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Kok, I have a few questions that I would rather ask your brother, but just in general I would like to know from you, people talk about so-called pseudo operations where an item is manufactured and then used afterwards when there is a forensic test done on it - maybe AK47 bullets were found on the scene and it is said this and this happened or that a handgrenade was from Eastern Europe origin, what I would like to ask you is, concerning your unit - I do not know in how many incidents you were involved in and I do not want the details concerning this, in how many instances you were involved in the manufacturing of a type of device that can be used by the Security Police or Forces, but is it not possible to say in general whether it was general practice to use material that would lead the investigators on a different route? MR J F KOK From our side we would definitely use - because we were in a war situation and the enemies from the Eastern Block countries weaponry was used, we tried as far as possible to use material and weapons that could not point fingers at the Security Branch. So you did make use of the Eastern Block countries, weaponry and materials from that country. MR RAUTENBACH At that stage did you realise that at the Technical Department, concerning the equipment that you had, whatever it was, the smallest or the biggest, part of the material that you used, that it could point a finger away from you? MR J F KOK Concerning weaponry and explosives we did not use the equipment within, we could go to the Explosives Unit, because it was something that was seized every single day and I think South Africa was at that stage one of the biggest, the country with the most Eastern Block weapons. And it was also mentioned in previous hearings that some of the weaponry was packaged by terrorists and in the onslaught they used material that was made in England. If we used to something like that, we had to get the same material from England. So it could be possible that we had that. MR RAUTENBACH I'm talking about detonators now. Would you also have had access to various types of detonators? MR J F KOK Yes, it was possible to get detonators. MR RAUTENBACH What was your rank at that stage? MR J F KOK I think I was a Captain. MR RAUTENBACH And your brother was also a Captain? MR J F KOK Yes. MR RAUTENBACH Just one aspect, Mr Kok. Did you ever, or did you have any contact with for example - I think it would be pure coincident, but with for example, Mr Kritzinger who investigated this case? MR J F KOK I knew him in another level, we were together on an officer's course, but I did not see him at that stage. MR RAUTENBACH And you cannot recall that he for example, came to investigate the offices or to do a search? MR J F KOK Yes, he came to do a search of the offices. MR RAUTENBACH Concerning the search, if he did search the offices one would expect that he would find material like as you said, had Eastern Block origin, or was it not there at that stage? MNR J F KOK MR RAUTENBACH I think it may be better if we take that point up with your brother. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAUTENBACH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Just one question, thank you, Chairperson. Did you expect that Mr Wal du Toit had the authority of Mr Helberg in this instance? MR J F KOK Chairperson, as Mr du Toit explained it, certain work which was allocated to our offices and which was compartmentalised in our office and we had responsibility to him, or received instruction from Mr du Toit. If he had clearance from Helberg, we never knew about that and we did not know whether it was necessary that he must clarify it with him. We believed that his instructions or his command position was enough for him to give us instructions to do this work. MS LOCKHAT But you believed that he had the authority to authorise this? MR J F KOK Yes, I believe so. MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) Sorry. When you bought the walkman, did they come packed up in a box? MR J F KOK No, it was in a blister pack. "Hierdie plastiek verpakte kaarte wat die walkman was met die oorfone wat oor die walkman is. So dit is in 'n plastiek, hierdie vinnig verpakte wat op die hakke hang. Dit was so 'n stel gewees". ...(no English interpretation) CHAIRPERSON So if it was ultimately packed in cardboard, you wouldn't know where that came from? MR J F KOK No. MR LAX Just while we're at it. Your recollection is only one walkman and one set of headphones at that stage. MR J F KOK Yes, Chairperson, because we started and we had to find out how to execute it. It would be no use to buy two walkmans at the beginning if we do not know what we are going to do with them. MR LAX As far as you know there was probably another bought at a later stage, although you're not sure about it. MR J F KOK I can confirm that it was conveyed to me. MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. Sorry, who told you that? MR J F KOK If my recollection serves me right it was my brother who told me. MR LAX Thank you, no further questions. MR BOOYENS No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR BOOYENS I call Jakobus Kok. Page 97, Mr Chairman.