amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-16 PRETORIA 2 JAKOBUS KOK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53899&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991116pt.htm MR SIBANYONI Your full names please. JAKOBUS KOK (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Thank you, you may be seated. Sworn in, Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS You are known as Kobus Kok. MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And your application appears on page 97 of the documents. The background that you sketch there you have previously confirmed before the Commission, is that correct? MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS From page 105 you deal with this particular matter, is that correct? MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS So you are in a similar position to your brother and Mr Wal du Toit, you also compiled your documents independently. MR J KOK Yes, without the assistance of any attorney. MR BOOYENS You also confirm what is stated here with regard to Mr Wal du Toit's application. MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Is it correct as you have stated on page 107, that you and Japie were basically indirectly under the command of Col du Toit and that you worked on the explosive device which was used in this matter? MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS You have heard Japie's evidence that the two of your discussed the matter and came to the ultimate conclusion that the explosives be placed in the ear section of the headphones. MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Then with regard to singular aspects regarding the device which you ultimately manufactured, the stability of the specific explosive and the explosive device, we have to accept that this is an item which travelled quite extensively and returned quite extensively before its explosion. How stable was it, how secure did you render the device, or at least attempt to render it? MR J KOK The explosive device itself was very secure, we used military explosives and detonators. The charge was of such a nature that only if someone held it in his hand or if it was restricted, would it really cause any damage to the person himself. The device, the cassette player itself was adjusted to such an extent that it would delay the sound and send a current through to the ears. So it was safe, in the sense that it would not work on any other cassette player, it would only detonate on that particular cassette player. Furthermore, the packaging and the packaging of the headphone itself, it was surrounded by cardboard, the detonator itself and there was also a metal screen on the front, which was behind the sponge section. So in terms of explosive devices it was very safely manufactured. This was also proven by the fact that it moved through the postal system for about nine months before it came to detonation. MR BOOYENS The possibility of tracing this particular device by means of X-rays and so forth, would you have expected them to be able to detect such a device? MR J KOK Chairperson, due to the technique that we employed, I believe that nine out of ten trained persons would not have been able to trace it. I do not wish to give any further details of how this was done. MR BOOYENS I don't believe that it is really in the public interest to say which measures you took. MR J KOK But it is virtually impossible to trace this device by means of an X-ray machine. Perhaps a dog would have been able to trace the device under certain circumstances. MR BOOYENS It is correct that Japie, although he was initially tasked to deal with the matter, you and him co-operated and when he left you continued independently in co-operation with Steve Bosch, in the manufacturing of these devices. MR J KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS And is it also correct that at a later stage - or let us deal with this first. You knew that Coetzee was the target? MR J KOK Yes, that was presented to me by Sgt Bosch, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And it was not your decision. Despite this he was the sort of target that you would have expected the Security Forces to have at that stage? MR J KOK Well personally I didn't make any evaluation of any targets, I wasn't involved in target identification or evaluation. I would have expected that due to what he had done and the fact that he had acted as a traitor, he would ultimately have been a target. MR BOOYENS It is also correct - you have heard the evidence of Mr du Toit, that you manufactured a prototype and that this was tested at Vlakplaas. MR J KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS You were satisfied with the functioning of the prototype? MR J KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS And then you built the final type. MR J KOK Yes, that is correct, I manufactured the final type. MR BOOYENS Was it then repackaged? MR J KOK In what regard? MR BOOYENS Well you told us, and I just want you to tell the Committee, that when you purchased the item it was in bubble wrap. MR J KOK Yes, we replaced it into the bubble wrap and wrapped it up in brown paper. MR BOOYENS So basically it looked like a new product off the shelf? MR J KOK If you were to open it, yes it would appear to be a new product straight off the shelf. MR BOOYENS What can you recall of the cassettes? MR J KOK If I think back, at a certain stage there was a Neil Diamond and a BZN cassette which was mentioned to me. And with the benefit of hindsight I can recall that Steve Bosch and Bellingan, on the day when they came to fetch the package, it had not been completely wrapped and the cassettes were wrapped with that package in the brown paper. MR BOOYENS Did you make up the package? MR J KOK Yes, I did. MR BOOYENS And you wrapped it in brown paper. How did you seal it? MR J KOK I think we used the regular packaging tape, the packaging materials that one would have to moisten in order to paste it onto brown paper. I think that is what we used. MR BOOYENS And did you wrap it in any rope or string or seal it? MR J KOK No. MR BOOYENS And as far as you know, Bellingan and Bosch were there together? MR J KOK Yes, as far as my recollection goes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And they then left with the packaged and wrapped explosive device? MR J KOK They then left with the wrapped device, and what happened to it is unknown to me. MR BOOYENS But you do know that a number of months later it was detonated? MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Now is it correct that you confirm the entirely of your application? MR J KOK Yes, I do. MR BOOYENS And indeed in the final instance, you acted as a member of the Security Forces within a situation of war, you had an order which was authorised and you were authorised to act against this target. MR J KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS So you confirm the balance of your application? MR J KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS And you request amnesty for any offence, omission or delict which may emanate from the attempt to kill Mr Coetzee and the death of Mr Mlangeni. MR J KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR HATTINGH I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR LAMEY Mr Kok, from whom did you determine who the target was, who told you that Dirk Coetzee was the target? MR J KOK Chairperson, as I have stated in my application, I heard this from Mr Bosch the day after he came to find out what the progress with the project was. He clearly informed me of this. MR LAMEY You did not hear this from Mr du Toit or Mr de Kock, because Mr du Toit was already aware of it at that stage. MR J KOK I may have heard it from my brother, Japie Kok, but I wasn't involved in the operation at that stage and I regard the official time of being notified who the target was, the day that I began to work with Steve Bosch. MR LAMEY Yes, I understand that you worked with him, but there was a delivery from your brother to you, that is when you became involved, and I assume that you would have been informed about what you were about to do and why you were going to do so. MR J KOK Well if you have read my amnesty application, you will see that Japie Kok did not hand over to me, he was already out of town and he was busy with another operation. Steve Bosch made enquiries and he coincidentally spoke to me at that stage. I sent him to Mr du Toit, that is where he found out how far the project was, and at that stage I basically took over the project. MR LAMEY Oh, I see. So within your circles there wasn't any hand-over after your brother left, it was only upon enquiry? MR J KOK Yes, it was only when the matter was enquired about and the urgency of the operation was stated, that this took place. MR LAMEY Very well, I will not go into any further detail about that. The tapping action which was launched, instruction from Mr Bosch is that you knew about this previously, this is not something that he told you specifically. MR J KOK Chairperson, may I just reiterate. In my application I have stipulated what Mr Bosch informed me about. MR LAMEY Didn't you know about any tapping beforehand? MR J KOK It was very compartmentalised, I was not informed that the line was being tapped, I was not interested in that, I had other tasks to continue with. MR LAMEY Very well. And then, do you know anything about a second walkman? MR J KOK Chairperson, my recollection is not very clear about this. According to my recollection, when I took over at that stage all the acquisitions had been conducted, there were already two players available and the headphones were also available. So I cannot say at which stage the one or the other was purchased, because I wasn't involved in it in the first place. MR LAMEY But there were two? MR J KOK Yes, there were two. MR LAMEY And then something else which I don't really understand so well. The ultimate packaging, after the explosives had been inserted into the headphones and the test had been run on Vlakplaas, it was replaced into the packaging as it appeared to be when it was purchased in the shop. MR J KOK That is correct. MR LAMEY Because Mr Bosch recalls that it was in some form of a box or something like that. MR J KOK Chairperson, I replaced it into its original wrapping. It came in a set, the player was in the middle and the headphones surrounded the player and these were wrapped in plastic. And as far as I can recall, I wrapped it in regular brown paper and he assisted me with it. MR LAMEY And no addresses were inscribed on the wrapping? MR J KOK No, none whatsoever. MR LAMEY Now where were the cassettes inserted? MR J KOK They were inserted with the package. The packaged cassette player with the headphones, we placed them together, fitted them together and then this formed a parcel on its own. MR LAMEY So it was inside the plastic wrapping? MR J KOK No, the cassettes were in the cassette holders which were then placed on top of the plastic covering and then wrapped up in brown paper. MR LAMEY So you had the plastic container containing the walkman and then the cassettes on top. Was this placed in anything else? MR J KOK It was wrapped in brown paper. MR LAMEY Only brown paper? MR J KOK Yes, that is all. MR LAMEY But the brown paper would have been easily damaged. MR J KOK It was simply a temporary packaging from my perspective. I delivered the package, what happened to it afterwards, how it was supposed to be wrapped, I don't know. Personally I wouldn't have wrapped it and posted it such, that is why I have referred to it as temporary packaging. MR LAMEY Very well. Thank you, Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON How long do you think you'll be? MR RAUTENBACH It's difficult to say, but maybe I should ask a couple of questions in case it's necessary to do some follow-up on some of the thing I've put to other witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Okay, that's why I've asked you the time because you indicated you had quite a lot of things you wanted to take up here. Right, start now and then when you reach a convenient stage when you think ...(intervention) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAUTENBACH Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Kok, the first thing I want to ask you is with regard to the package. As I understand your evidence you're actually saying that you put it in brown wrapping paper, this modified walkman and you gave it to them in that fashion and I deduce from that that you assumed that they would make up their own parcel in whatever way they wanted to and that they would send it in the way that they deemed the most favourable. MR J KOK That is correct. MR RAUTENBACH So you would not have the responsibility of packaging this parcel in order to render it suitable for postage? MR J KOK I did not do that. MR RAUTENBACH So it was not expected of you to package this item into a postal item? MR J KOK No, I was only supposed to prepare the explosive device. MR RAUTENBACH Very well. So the brown paper that you received you basically just wrapped it up in this brown paper. MR J KOK It formed a parcel on its own, if one wants to see it as such. MR RAUTENBACH Now this brown paper which you used, which brown paper was it? MR J KOK General brown wrapping paper that one would cover school books in. MR RAUTENBACH So this was something which was easily available anywhere, one could buy this in any shop? It wasn't anything sinister, it didn't have to be obtained from a specific place so that it would not be identified? MR J KOK No, the brown paper was not a serious issue. MR RAUTENBACH Then I just want to ask you before we adjourn just with regard to the machines, I assume that both machines were identically prepared in order to test the one to see if the other would work similarly? MR J KOK That is correct. MR RAUTENBACH Now just with regard to the modifications that you brought about to the machines and the wiring, did you change the wiring? MR J KOK I did change the wiring and I also added certain other aspects of wiring. MR RAUTENBACH Now these modifications that you made to the machine led to the fact that a certain amount of amps would be led to the headphones. MR J KOK Yes, there would be an amp difference. MR RAUTENBACH Now if we look at amps, I understand that it would have required a very low amp level to detonate the explosives even though they were very stable explosives. MR J KOK Yes, that is correct, but it wasn't only about the current, it was also about the potential difference. MR RAUTENBACH What would you say about the current? MR J KOK It was quite difficult to say, it would depend upon the resistance of the spring shells. These were military shells which were very stable, which came from weaponry. It's very difficult to say. MR RAUTENBACH But it was a relatively low current? MR J KOK No, it wasn't 3, 4, 5 amps. MR RAUTENBACH No, I understood from somewhere that someone told me when we were discussing the matter, that 3 would be sufficient. MR J KOK Yes, 3 was more than sufficient. MR RAUTENBACH Then just with regard to the wiring that you say that you changed and added to. That which you added, where did you obtain this from, the wiring? MR J KOK These were wires from an obsolete piece of equipment which had been imported from England I think, these were not wires which were locally purchased or obtained. MR RAUTENBACH So it was not locally obtainable? MR J KOK No, it wasn't. MR RAUTENBACH So the forensics expert who would have investigated these matters and attempted to determine from where the device came, where it was purchased, what make it was, would not have been able to trace it to South Africa? MR J KOK That is correct. MR RAUTENBACH Very well. It would then appear to me at this stage that it would be advisable to stand down until tomorrow morning, but I would like to say that according to your evidence that if there had been evidence that the packaging or the cardboard which was used was not at all available in South Africa or manufactured in South Africa, you would then say that this isn't anything that you really orchestrated. MR J KOK No, I didn't have anything to do with that, I simply used the brown paper. MR RAUTENBACH Mr Chairman, will that be a convenient time? CHAIRPERSON Nine thirty, gentlemen? We now adjourn till nine thirty tomorrow morning. MS LOCKHAT All rise. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS