amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-23 PRETORIA 6 JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT MURDER OF MK VALDEZ https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53909&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991123pt.htm CHAIRPERSON I feel I should once again make certain explanations. Those of you who were here yesterday, will recollect that we adjourned to obtain certain other documents. In this regard I would like to express my thanks, and I think the thanks of all of us, to Lynne Lockhat and to Huet(?) Kok who spent yesterday rushing from place to place, from the Attorney-General's office to Middelburg, to Alberton, to obtain further documents which are relevant to the present proceedings. We will now start dealing with the evidence of certain of the applicants, but the representative of the victims has not had an opportunity to consult them about the new information that has emerged from the papers we now have, and after we have heard two of the applicants, the matter will probably be adjourned again. I think we can now start as arranged, dealing with the applicants, leading Mr Tait on the basis that it should be possible to dispose of him and then dealing with Mr de Kock in-chief, his cross-examination to stand over. MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, the parties haven't placed themselves on record yet. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR BOOYENS The various legal representatives haven't placed themselves on record yet, I presume ... CHAIRPERSON The Committee remains the same. Will the legal representatives please put themselves on record and say a few words for the sake of those transcribing the record. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is P A Hattingh, I'm instructed by Mr Schalk Hugo, and we appear for Mr de Kock. MR BOOYENS May it please the Committee, Mr Chairman, and gentlemen. Kobus Booyens, I appear for the applicant, Mr J H Tait. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Wim Cornelius, I appear on behalf of the fourth applicant, Leon William John Flores. MR LAMEY As it pleases you, Chairman. Lamey, I act on behalf of applicants Bosch and Nortje. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi, I appear for the victim in this matter, Ms Tandi Shongo(?) MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson. Lynne Lockhat on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. CHAIRPERSON Is your client here? MR KOOPEDI My client is here, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If I could say to her that we have asked our Leader of Evidence to cause further enquiries to be made to ascertain if we possibly can, the whereabouts of your husband's body and that you will be informed as soon as we obtain any such information. MR BOOYENS May it please the Committee, Mr Chairman. I call the first applicant to give evidence, Mr Johan Hendrik Tait. He will be giving his evidence in Afrikaans. MR LAX Mr Tait, your full names for the record. MR TAIT Johan Hendrik Tait. MR LAX Do you have any objection to taking the oath? JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT (sworn states) MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson, sworn in. You may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Tait, your amnesty application appears on page 50 of the bundle, is that correct? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS You have on previous occasions given evidence about your background and some of your more senior colleagues will be able to give more thorough evidence about this, but do you confirm the evidence regarding your background, as it appears on page 50, 51, 52 up to and including the top of 53? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Now with regard to this particular incident, there are just a number of aspects. At the stage when the incident took place you were not familiar, and even when you compiled your application you did not really know who the deceased person was with regard to the incident. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS But you accept that the person who is named is indeed the person who was killed during this incident? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Now is it correct that during 1988 you were stationed at Vlakplaas? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS And your amnesty application makes the statement on page 53 "On an unknown date during 1988, while I was a member of the Special Task Force ..." ... that isn't exactly correct, you were a member of Vlakplaas and you were with members of the Special Task Force, is that correct? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And were busy following up certain information regarding an MK cadre who found himself in a particular residential area? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You arrived at a house, is that correct? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And there were quite a few people there among others, Mr de Kock and some of your colleagues as well as Task Force people, people that you didn't know? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Now the Task Force people, as you've stated on the top of page 54, encircled the house and were busy penetrating the house, is that correct? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And where were you at that stage? MR TAIT I was in a plot at the back of the house. MR BOOYENS Who was with you? MR TAIT As far as I can recall, Mr Flores was also there at that stage. MR BOOYENS And tell us briefly what took place. MR TAIT The person apparently escaped from the house, he jumped over the wall and saw us where we were in the adjacent plot. He tried to jump back over the wall, upon which Mr Flores fired at him with his uzzi and struck him. MR BOOYENS And I assume that the person fell down. MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Did you yourself fire any shots? MR TAIT No. MR BOOYENS Can you recall how many shots were fired by Mr Flores? MR TAIT No. MR BOOYENS Could it have been one or more than one, or are you not sure? MR TAIT I cannot say. MR BOOYENS This person then fell down, is that correct? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And after that he was arrested so to speak and placed in the back of a police van, is that correct? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Did you have anything further to do with him? MR TAIT No. MR BOOYENS Did you and some of the other Task Force members depart from there to follow up other information? MR TAIT Yes, there were other houses that we searched in order to obtain further information. MR BOOYENS Just for the sake of clarity, the other houses that you searched, this had nothing to do with any information that was obtained with this particular incident, these were separate operations? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct, these were predetermined operations. MR BOOYENS Thus you say that you were aware that an ambulance was called in but you never saw any ambulance arriving. MR TAIT That is correct. After the incident I departed, we went to the other houses. MR BOOYENS And you never again had anything further to do with the deceased. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Later you heard that he died during interrogation. MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And have you heard now that it is possible that he was assaulted and so forth during interrogation, however you do not know anything about this particularly? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS So Mr Tait, the basis upon which you have requested amnesty is your involvement in an incident during which one of your colleagues shot someone under circumstances which could be regarded by prosecuting authorities as unnecessary violence and you know that the man died during interrogation and you did not report anything about this. MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You confirm the rest of your application? MR TAIT Correct. MR BOOYENS That is the evidence, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions for this witness. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. Wim Cornelius for the fourth applicant, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. Lamey on behalf of Nortje and Bosch. Mr Tait, I just want to be certain regarding the question of the ambulance which was called. Are you not certain whether this was done or were you no longer there or what is the situation that you recall? MR TAIT As far as I can recall an ambulance was called. MR LAMEY I just want to put it to you that Mr Nortje's recollection is that an ambulance was not called at any stage. MR TAIT Yes, Chairperson, I would not be able to make any statements about Mr Nortje's recollection, but as far as I can recall it was said that an ambulance should be called. MR LAMEY Was this before the commencement of the interrogation, or could it have been after his death? MR TAIT I cannot recall at which stage this request was put in. MR LAMEY You cannot recall at which stage, very well. I've got no further questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON You only came back after his death, as I understand it. MR TAIT Yes, Chairperson, after he was shot I departed and I cannot recall whether I did indeed return or whether the person was already gone, but I have no further recollection of that. MR SIBANYONI Who said the ambulance should be called? MR TAIT I cannot say with certainty who it was, I can no longer recall. MR LAMEY No further questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. One question for Mr Tait. This wall, where was this wall, was the wall surrounding the house from which the deceased came from? The wall you say he jumped. MR TAIT Yes, it was an adjacent wall. As I can imagine the wall was directly behind the house. MR KOOPEDI So one could - if I understand you well, one could say that wall served as the boundary between that house and perhaps other houses all to the street. MR TAIT Yes. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson. How far from the house did the deceased fall when he was shot, was it a distance away from the house, was it nearby? Can you give us some information regarding that. MR TAIT As far as I can recall he had jumped over the wall and he fell on the other side of the wall. CHAIRPERSON The same side as you or back on the house side? MR TAIT On the side of the house, on the other side of the wall. MS LOCKHAT And then just from the time that you all surrounded the house and the time he was shot, how long did that take place? MR TAIT Unfortunately I would not be able to say. MS LOCKHAT You can't guess, five minutes or twenty minutes or ...? MR TAIT Unfortunately I cannot say. MS LOCKHAT And then just your initial instruction, was it just to effect arrest, as you mention in your amnesty application form? MR TAIT That is as far as I can recall. MS LOCKHAT And on page 54 in your amnesty application form, at the second paragraph you stated that Mr de Kock started questioning the deceased, did you see that yourself or is that just what you heard? MR TAIT I did not see this myself because the person was taken and Mr de Kock was in charge, so it would have been logical that he would be the one to commence the interrogation. MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson, I have not further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT MR SIBANYONI But Mr Tait, why did you put it in your statement that as far as you can remember, de Kock started the questioning, if you didn't see it? MR TAIT As I've stated, Mr de Kock was in charge of the operation, so it would have been automatic that he would be the one to begin the interrogation of the man. I assumed that he would be interrogated by Mr de Kock. CHAIRPERSON Why do you think he was interrogated, this man who had been shot and collapsed? MR TAIT There would certainly have been more information which could have been obtained from him regarding whether or not he was alone or whether there were other persons with him. MR SIBANYONI I've got no further questions, Mr Chairperson. MR LAX Just one thing. As I understood your evidence-in-chief, and it was really the way it was put to you by your counsel, you left the scene of the shooting ...(intervention) MR TAIT That is correct. MR LAX ... to fulfil other enquiries. MR TAIT That's correct, Chairperson, there were still more places which had to be investigated and I departed immediately after the shooting incident with some of the other members of the Special Task Force. MR LAX Where were these places in relation to this house? MR TAIT Chairperson, I cannot make any statements about this, but as far as I can imagine it was in the same vicinity because I don't believe that we actually drove to these other places. MR LAX So it would have been adjacent houses, surely? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Was this not as a result of information obtained from the questioning of this person? MR TAIT No, Chairperson, according to my recollection these places had already been identified as places that had to be investigated. MR LAX You see, Mr de Kock in his application, makes it clear that people were sent off to other places as a result of information obtained from the deceased. MR TAIT Chairperson, I cannot recall it as such because I did not remain at the scene. I would have had to remain at the scene for quite some time before my departure and as far as I can recall I left the scene of the incident virtually immediately. MR LAX You see if one looks at the general tenor of this operation, it was to attempt to arrest this man. The whole operation was to go to a particular place, to penetrate that house and to find this man Thabang that's mentioned in all the papers. There's no mention made of other houses that needed to be searched as well as part of the operation or anything else, as part of the original planning of the operation. Do you understand what I'm saying? MR TAIT Yes, I understand you. MR LAX And yet on your version that was part of the plan. MR TAIT Chairperson, when I made this statement it may be that I was mistaken with regard to previous actions and I may have confused various incidents. MR LAX Now just one small little thing. Just bear with me one second, Chair. You said that there were Task Force people present and Vlakplaas people present, who else was present as far as you can recall? MR TAIT I can recall the Task Force and then also the Vlakplaas members. Unfortunately I cannot give you any names, I just know that the Task Force was applied, but I don't know who these persons were by name. MR LAX My question if I can be more specific is, were there members from any other areas there, in addition to, or units, in addition to Task Force and Vlakplaas, as far as you can recall? MR TAIT It may be so that I have not mentioned this because it would be logical that the Security Branch members who produced the original information, would also have been present. MR LAX And where was that from as far as you know? MR TAIT Chairperson, yesterday morning I read my statement and I read about Germiston Security Branch members. I did not mention this in my statement but it would have been so that they would have been there if this was their operation. MR LAX Yes. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON There are various matters which I'm afraid I'm going to introduce. Firstly, who was in command of the unit that left the scene and went off to other houses? MR TAIT Chairperson, unfortunately I cannot tell you, I can no longer recall who was in command. CHAIRPERSON Was it Mr de Kock? MR TAIT No, Chairperson, I would have remembered if it was him who accompanied us to the other houses, but I cannot say with one hundred percent certainty that it is or isn't him. There is a possibility, but I cannot recall anything like that. CHAIRPERSON Did you see Mr de Kock fire any shots that day? MR TAIT No, Chairperson, because the only shots that I saw at the back of the fence where I was, were those which were fired by Mr Flores. CHAIRPERSON And I'm going to ask you about that because we have got statements from Mr Flores and Mr van Dyk, in which they say that they pursued this man for a long distance down the road, round other houses and it took about 20 minutes before they caught up with him and shot him. What do you say to that? MR TAIT I cannot recall this. As I have said, what I can recall is that Mr Flores and I found ourselves at the back of the house at a certain stage. It may be that he ran around there, but as far as my memory allows, he and I at that stage were at the back of the fence. This is what I've stated in my affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and you say he climbed over the fence at the back of the house, he saw you two, he tried to get back again and Flores shot him and he fell into the yard at the back of the house. MR TAIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And there he was arrested and taken away to the house. MR TAIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you see van Dyk there at all? MR TAIT Not as far as I can recall, Chairperson. It may be that he was there, but as far as I can recall when I made my statement, I could identify Mr Flores due to the fact that I saw him firing shots at the person. CHAIRPERSON Did you see any warning shots being fired? MR TAIT I cannot recall that any warning shots were fired, but I cannot exclude the possibility that they were indeed fired. I would not be able to elaborate on this. CHAIRPERSON Was any warning shouted? MR TAIT Chairperson, I cannot say with certainty. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Just one thing, Chair. With regard to van Dyk, you say you didn't see him and you can't remember him being there, but surely if he had fired shots or a shot, you would recall that, it would have been right next to you or nearby you. MR TAIT It would have had to have been near to me, but I cannot recall that I saw Mr van Dyk there or that he fired any shots there. MR LAX Mr van Dyk says he was with Flores and you say you were with Flores. MR TAIT That is correct. MR LAX And van Dyk says he saw Flores shoot the man and you say you saw Flores shoot the man. MR TAIT That is correct, Chairperson. I just cannot recall seeing Mr van Dyk shooting the man or that I saw him there. It may be possible, but at the time of making my statement it was about 12 to 13 years of the fact and I couldn't recall everything in precise detail. MR LAX Yes, no, no, I understand it's a long time ago, I don't expect you to remember everything. Were other members present there with you or were you just, just the three of you? Or just the two of you. I mean let's assume you're mistaken and it's only the two of you. Were there any other members present there at the time of the shooting? MR TAIT According to me Chairperson, and my recollection, at the back of the wall where the man jumped over I can only recall me and Mr Flores and the fact that Mr Flores fired at the man. It may be possible that other people were present there, but I cannot recall this. MR LAX And then just one final aspect. Did you and Flores take this man back to the place where he was loaded into the vehicle? MR TAIT No, Chairperson, I had nothing further to do with the man. MR LAX So did you just leave him lying there? MR TAIT Chairperson, I don't know about the other persons who were also present there, but I did not carry him to the vehicle, it must have been some of the other persons whom I cannot recall. MR LAX After the man was shot, what exactly did you do? Did you just stand and watch, did you radio for help, did you call for help? MR TAIT No, Chairperson, as I have stated, we withdrew and we went to the other houses. There were other members there, quite a few other persons who were present there who would then have assisted the man, but I did not assist in providing any further help to the man and we departed immediately. MR LAX Who told you to leave the scene? Somebody must have given you an instruction. MR TAIT Yes, that would have been so, but I cannot recall who the person was who told us to deal with the other houses. MR LAX And you're quite sure this person was just over the wall at the back of the property? MR TAIT That is how I recall it, that he was on the other side of the wall. That is where he collapsed. MR LAX Did you actually look over the wall to see him there, or are you just assuming this? MR TAIT I cannot say, I may have looked over. I believe that I must have looked over, but I cannot say with certainty. MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was it a solid wall? MR TAIT As far as I can recall it was a solid wall. CHAIRPERSON And how high, approximately? MR TAIT It was the regular style of concrete wall. If I had to give an estimate I would say just over six to seven feet high. If I had to give an estimate. CHAIRPERSON Higher than the average man, a little bit higher than the average man. MR TAIT Yes, that is correct, one couldn't simply peer over the wall. If one was standing in front of it, one would have to climb up the wall in order to see over to the other side. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Yes, I would just like to clarify a few things, Mr Chairman. You were referred to Mr van Dyk. You had a colleague at Vlakplaas, Mr Paul van Dyk, is that correct? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And I think that the Mr van Dyk to which you were referred was a Mr Karel van Dyk from the Germiston Security Branch. Do you know this man? His name was Karel, he's also known as Kallie. MR TAIT Yes, I'm aware of a Kallie van Dyk from Germiston. MR BOOYENS But you cannot recall that he was there. MR TAIT No. MR BOOYENS And then just something else. Upon various occasions you stated that you could not recall and so forth, for which reason did you leave the Police Force? MR TAIT Post-traumatic stress disorder. MR BOOYENS And indeed you are instituting a claim for injury in service in this regard. MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Does this affect your memory? MR TAIT That is correct, my memory is affected by the disorder. MR BOOYENS Are you receiving medical treatment for your condition? MR TAIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Have we seen anything in this regard, on an earlier occasion? I think we have, haven't we? MR BOOYENS I think you did. In fact I think it was in the Chand matter, Mr Chairman, that's my attorney's recollection. We've got the medical certificate in any case, I'll ask my attorney to bring a copy and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well my recollection is we have all seen it in one of the ... Thank you. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Does that conclude the evidence which you wish to lead? MR BOOYENS That concludes the evidence on behalf of this witness, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well as we have agreed, and I think everyone present agreed to this, we are at this stage prepared to release the applicant from further attendance, subject to the fact that if it should become necessary that he be recalled, you will make arrangements. It's subject to that he is otherwise released from further attendance. MR BOOYENS I'm indebted to the Committee, Mr Chairman, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, may I call Mr de Kock as the next applicant.