amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-23 PRETORIA 6 EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53910&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991123pt.htm MR SIBANYONI Mr de Kock, your full names please. MR DE KOCK Eugene Alexander de Kock. MR SIBANYONI Do you have any objection to taking the prescribed oath? EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK (sworn states) MR SIBANYONI Thank you, be seated. He is sworn in, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr de Kock, you are an applicant with regard to this incident and your application appears from page 1 to 7 of the bundle, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And in as far as it was possible for you to study your application, I see here on page 3 it is very difficult to decipher everything, do you confirm the correctness of the allegations contained therein? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, my attorney undertook - and it's just as well that he's not here at the moment, undertook to get more legible copies of this particular page, unfortunately he'd forgotten to do so, we will let you have them in due course. CHAIRPERSON I have had great difficulty trying to read the bottom half, the top half is alright. MR HATTINGH Yes, Mr Chairman, we'll let you have better copies. Mr Chairman, might I at the same time refer to these documents, I assume that they are going to be handed in as exhibits, the documents that we were handed this morning. If we could just number them so that I could refer to them during the evidence of Mr de Kock. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before we do that, there's one other matter which I would like to clear up with you, and that is on the document page 4. The last sentence in paragraph 8A, is that that he accepts full responsibility for the death of this MK member's death and the operation - and then I can't read ... "... wat deur ..." MR LAX "... wat deur ons uitgevoer is." I think it is. MR HATTINGH Yes, I think that is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Right. I've got two bundles, have you got two bundles? MR HATTINGH I've actually got two bundles and then the post-mortem ... CHAIRPERSON Ja, three. The post-mortem, shall we call that A. That is the post-mortem report and an affidavit by the doctor who performed the post-mortem, well I take it it was going to be an affidavit. My copy is unsigned. Oh, the original hand-written one is signed and attested to. The next one is a bundle starting with - "Kasper Johannes Schoeman" We'll call that B, it already has a B on the first page, and that is paginated. MR HATTINGH Yes, I see, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And finally, the bundle starting off "To the District Commandant SA Polisie dated the 24th of February 1989". That will be C. That is also paginated. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Very well, Mr de Kock ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We had yesterday the affidavit of Mr Bosch, but I think that is to form part of his application, which would then be 49A. Right. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr de Kock, in your application you could not recall the date and we have obtained documentation indicating that the incident took place on the 7th of November 1988, are you prepared to accept this as the correct date? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Now on that particular date, were you involved in the incident which took place in the Vosloorus area? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Just for the purposes of the record, Vosloorus is a residential area near Alberton, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Who was involved in the operation and how did it come to be that Vlakplaas became involved in the operation? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the Germiston Security Branch directed a request to Vlakplaas and they requested assistance, among others also askaris. The information which was conveyed to me was that between the Germiston Security Branch and the Witbank Security Branch, between those two branches they were occupied in monitoring the telephones of suspected ANC/MK members who were operating in the Germiston area as well as the Witbank area. They requested that we, Vlakplaas, assist them with the detection of these members and askaris and I also co-opted the Special Task Force of the SAP, to assist us in the event of us requiring more fire power or a larger group. MR HATTINGH So ultimately a group of persons went to a particular house in Vosloorus, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, all of us, the Witbank Security Branch as well as the Germiston Branch, me and my unit as well as the Task Force, converged at the Germiston Security Branch offices, with the Task Force for the purposes of services, under my command. MR HATTINGH Was any information conveyed to you with regard to the identity of the persons who you would be looking for? MR DE KOCK A variety of information was conveyed to us, that this was an operational group of the ANC which was operating there. Among others, the information indicated that there was a plan - and this was specifically stated, there was a plan to bomb a Wimpy Milk Bar, among others. And reference was made to this group as a hard-core MK group. In other words, a hardened core of operatives. MR HATTINGH Was any mention made of any possible involvement of this group in previous incidents before this date? MR DE KOCK It may have happened. I've noted in the other applications something to this effect, but with the composition of my application I did not have an independent recollection of this and that is the reason why I did not mention this. It may have been mentioned to us. MR HATTINGH Do you recall whether any photos were shown to you of possible suspects before you departed for the area? MR DE KOCK I don't have an independent recollection of that either. However, I would foresee that this would have happened because the briefing which was given to us was conducted by the Witbank Security Branch. MR HATTINGH And there in the offices of the Security Branch of Germiston, did they have any photo albums of persons who were suspected of having been involved in terrorist activities? MR DE KOCK Yes, they had such capacity. MR HATTINGH Now you had a specific address to which you would have departed, can you recall the number today, or would somebody have pointed out the place to you? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I cannot recall the number, but I would accept that this was the number which was given here in the other reports. What did happen was that the address was provided by the Witbank Security Branch. They undertook tapping at an address in Witbank in the black residential area, from which calls came from the Germiston area and Vosloorus and by means of the number which they picked up, the address was determined. MR HATTINGH And who showed you where to go? MR DE KOCK The Germiston Security Branch members that accompanied us and who were quite familiar with the area and knew the streets, they accompanied us to this address. In other words, they showed the address to us in that vicinity. MR HATTINGH And it was daytime when you went to the house, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Later we will deal more thoroughly with the time, but could you estimate for us whether or not it was in the morning or in the afternoon when you went there? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I believe if my recollection serves me correctly, that it was in the middle of the morning, of the afternoon. MR HATTINGH And was there any unrest in the Vosloorus area at the time of this incident? MR DE KOCK Yes, it was quite serious, to the extent that the Vosloorus area as well as surrounding areas were regarded as liberated areas. MR HATTINGH And was this one of the reasons why you regarded it as necessary to enlist the assistance of the Task Force? MR DE KOCK Yes, we went with quite a large Force, because aside from the MK members we could also have expected other attacks. MR HATTINGH Very well. And what was your experience with regard to such house penetrations? Was it sufficient to take precautionary measures against attacks from within the particular house that you wanted to search? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, the ANC had a certain standard procedure, they would usually give the number of the house which was actually next-door to the house that they were using and I know that there were cases, particularly in Vryburg, where the address which they had provided was not in actual fact the address where they were residing, they were actually residing in the house on the opposite side of the street. So when the police penetrated the house of which they had the number, shots were fired at them from the back and there were policemen who were killed and injured. That was a standard precautionary measure against being trapped. MR HATTINGH And which counter-measures did you take in this regard? MR DE KOCK I took enough members along with us, so that with the deployment of the penetration of the house which is done by the Task Force, we would surround the house and then the additional members, among others the askaris, would then give us coverage from the outside parameters. So you had two groups, one looking in and one looking out. MR HATTINGH Is that how you planned the operation with this house? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Tell the Committee what took place when you arrived at the house. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the minibus in which I was travelling contained me and perhaps another member, I think one of my members drove the vehicle, and there were also Task Force members from the Special Task Force, who would undertake the house penetration. My group would then strike the house, so to speak. Upon the arrival at this house and the address which was pointed out to us, a vehicle drove away from the front gate of this house and I gave the driver the instruction to follow this vehicle and the vehicle which followed me was instructed to strike the house. MR HATTINGH Did you have radio communication? MR DE KOCK Yes. I then opened the sliding door of the kombi and leaned out and shot out the left back tyre with the R5. MR HATTINGH Did the vehicle come to a standstill? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH How far away was this from the house that you were supposed to penetrate? MR DE KOCK I would say approximately 30 to 40 meters. MR HATTINGH So it wasn't very far away? MR DE KOCK No, it wasn't. MR HATTINGH And you say that the driver of the vehicle was detained. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Do you know what happened to him later? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, he along with a number of other persons who were in the vicinity of this house in this street but did not reside there or have any business there or any people to visit there, all these persons were collected and detained. And as far as I can recall 11 to 12 of them were detained under emergency regulations for further interrogation and possible identification or clearance, in order to determine whether or not they were not there as collaborators. MR HATTINGH And do you know whether the driver of the vehicle was one of these persons who was further detained? MR DE KOCK No, but I assume that he would have been. MR HATTINGH After this vehicle was stopped and the person was detained, what did you do then, Mr de Kock? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, we then moved back. Myself and the group that were with me went back to the house that was pointed out to us. MR HATTINGH May I just interpose here before we continue. Can you recall which members from Vlakplaas were all involved in this operation? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, that would be impossible. MR HATTINGH Could you recall some of their names? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, amongst others the persons who applied here and of the Task Force members I can recall two persons, one was a Capt Louw and the other was W/O Floors de Jongh. MR HATTINGH And the other Security Police members? MR DE KOCK I recall a Lt Lotz and a W/O van Dyk, I recall him specifically. MR HATTINGH This was not Paul van Dyk from Vlakplaas? MR DE KOCK No, he was from Germiston Security Branch, this van Dyk. And then from the Witbank Security Branch I have a recollection that Capt Rorich who was the Commanding Officer of the Security Branch at Witbank, had briefed us at the Germiston Security Branch, but I cannot place him at the scene during the shooting and the rest. There were two other members from the Witbank Security Branch who were at the scene, I cannot recall their names however. MR HATTINGH And the askaris who came along with you? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I cannot recall any names, but it was quite a group. MR HATTINGH You then returned to the house with this group who was in your vehicle, and what happened then? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, when we entered the premises one of the members, I cannot recall who, informed me that they had shot a person who had tried to run away from the house, when we drove past the house and were pursuing this other vehicle. MR HATTINGH Can you recall whether you heard that shot or shots? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I was firing my own shots and it was, in that limited space of the vehicle it would have been impossible to hear any other shots. MR HATTINGH The report was made to you, and did then find a person who was injured there? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, when I met the person he was already on the front side of the house, from where he ran away in other words. I did not visit the scene where he lay. MR HATTINGH Can you recall who brought him to the front, around the front of the house to the front garden? MR DE KOCK No, I cannot. I do know that I spoke to Mr Flores and he told me that he fired at the person and that he had struck the person. W/O van Dyk however later came to tell me that he shot the person. MR HATTINGH If you say "thereafter", how long thereafter? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I would say it was just a few minutes afterwards, because Mr van Dyk disputed this and said that he shot the person. MR HATTINGH Could you see that the person was injured? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, he had a wound to his leg, I cannot recall which leg, but he had an injury to his leg and the bullet entered from the back of his leg. I did not see an exit wound if I can recall correctly. And the Task Force members, there were some of them who were trained paramedics and I asked some of them to apply a tourniquet and to strap the leg in and that they had to give him intravenous blood, which they then did. MR HATTINGH Where was this person when this was done, Mr de Kock? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, as far as I can recall he was in the front garden of this house which we had penetrated. MR HATTINGH Yes, and was an intravenous drip put on him and what happened to the man then? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, he remained lying down there in the garden. There were guards put with him. By nature of the situation the members had to watch him. MR HATTINGH Yes, but what happened afterwards? MR DE KOCK And after he was there, Chairperson, we then penetrated the house and searched the house and I gave instructions that this house be searched thoroughly and if it was necessary and they could not do otherwise than to damage it during this search, then they just had to report all this damage because I wanted all equipment, explosives or possible addresses or weapons cache stockpile points, I wanted all that information ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH Is that what you suspected you would find there? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. And they then continued to search the house, so much so that there was much damage done to some of the things in the house and we carried some of the things out of the house and put it on the lawn and I went so far as to tell the Task Force members to remove the laminating from the doors of the house because it is made out of compressed wood, even to remove those laminated slabs to see if there were any plans hidden in there. I wanted to go as far as having the floors and the garden dug up if it was necessary. MR HATTINGH Did you find anything? MR DE KOCK Yes, W/O de Jongh called me and in the bathroom of this house we found a Makarov pistol of Russian origin with a magazine and there was also a handgrenade. MR HATTINGH Very well, Mr de Kock. With your years of experience you have a thorough knowledge of Eastern Block firearms. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, you could probably mislead me with items such as diamonds or painting, I am not an expert there, but with weapons not you or not anybody else will try and beat about the bush with me. MR HATTINGH Was it a Makarov that you found there? MR DE KOCK Yes, it was a brand new, brand spanking new firearm and it was Makarov 9mm short barrel. MR HATTINGH And was ammunition found for this particular weapon? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I have a recollection of one magazine that was loaded with ammunition because I was present when this weapon was secured. MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock, this morning before the Commission and the proceedings commenced, a document was handed to us and I gave it to you to read and comment on it and a further statement from one, Karel van Dyk, which appears in Exhibit B on page 3, where he says that a paper bag with arms - he received a paper bag with arms and that the pistol was covered in a cloth but later when he checked the pistol he found that it was an FEG pistol and not a Makarov pistol as he thought and that the two were quite similar in appearance. What do you say about that? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, it is perjury in its purest form, that is not so. I was personally present when W/O de Jongh handled the weapon in order to secure the weapon, and I have a clear recollection that we found the weapon in a particular place in the bathroom and it was a Makarov and nothing else. MR HATTINGH Very well, while we are dealing with this, maybe we should deal with other relevant factors. Later you were asked to make a statement with regard to this incident, is that correct? MR DE KOCK That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And the statement, did you write it yourself or was it written down for you? MR DE KOCK Was this in regard to the inquest? MR HATTINGH The post-mortem inquest. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I never wrote out a statement. I have now signed a statement here, I could not even recall that I made any statement there. MR HATTINGH Very well, we shall arrive at that, but let's just deal with the Makarov part of this incident. Was it ever asked of you to sign a statement or to make a statement to the extent that an FEG pistol was found in this house? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, Lt Lotz who also worked or was in control of the ANC Desk at Germiston, at that Security Branch, came to see me and wanted an independent statement from me with regard to this particular Makarov and he wanted me to sign a statement that a pistol of foreign origin, which was not even in working order, that I had to say that this was the firearm that was found there. MR HATTINGH And the pistol that you had to identify, did he show this pistol to you as the one that was found there? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you handle it? MR DE KOCK Yes, one could not even cock this firearm and the working parts would not work on this firearm. MR HATTINGH Did you try to determine whether this pistol's firing chamber was suitable for firing Makarov ammunition? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I later told Lotz. And what irritated me was the fact that he thought that I must believe that it is this weapon, and I went and I took a Makarov round and I told him "You try and fit this into this firearm" and the Makarov round did not fit, it did not even want to go in. MR HATTINGH And you were not prepared to make such a statement? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I refused. MR HATTINGH And the Makarov that was found was in a very good condition? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, it was in exceptional condition. MR HATTINGH Was it practice for members of the Security Police to collect mementoes, specifically with regard to Eastern Block firearms? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, this did happen. There are many of them who legally went and registered these firearms in their names and obtained licences. MR HATTINGH Was this a wanted item amongst police officers? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, personally the Makarov had no value for me because it was of ordinary velocity and it was not really practical. MR HATTINGH Very well then. Mr de Kock, you have earlier said that you cannot recall that you did make any statement eventually. This morning a statement was shown to you that was signed by you and this appears in Exhibit C, from page 11, the statement starts on page 11 and the attesting and signature of it appears on page 13. Is that your handwriting? MR DE KOCK Yes, it is. MR HATTINGH Did you before today have an independent recollection that you had made this statement? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I cannot even recall this statement. Well up to the point that this statement was shown to me, I believed that I did not make any statement at all. MR HATTINGH We will deal with the contents thereof later. Can I refer you to paragraph 4, there you've described the firearm which was found in this house as a Makarov pistol. MR DE KOCK That's correct. MR HATTINGH And not this other type of pistol. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH We shall return to this statement later. You say that in the house the Makarov pistol, magazine and rounds and a handgrenade was found, can you recall what else was found in the house? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, when I saw the statement it did jog my memory. As far as I know there was a smallish boltcutter found, or something similar. I don't have an independent recollection of what else was found there but there were this thick plastic gloves that one would use while working with chemicals or working in the garden. Somewhere I have a recollection of that. MR HATTINGH After these items were found in the house, what did you do then? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, we did not find any other items, I did not also have any other information which could give me tangible evidence, like a chart for any weapons cache point. MR HATTINGH Did you find any other persons in the house? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, the house was empty. MR HATTINGH What did you do then? MR DE KOCK I then decided, Chairperson, that in order to obtain information and to prevent further bomb explosions, that I will interrogate this injured person and if my memory serves correctly, and I do believe that I am correct, I asked the Task Force to apply a second intravenous feeding to this injured person, but not to open it. There was a drive-up truck there, this is a type of a 5-ton truck that one uses for the transportation of troops and members of the Force, as it was practice during that time. Then I loaded this person into the truck and I tied his hands to the two sides. One has a seating system on either side where the troops can sit and I cuffed his hands to the welded bars which served as the legs for these seats and I found a cloth in the house and I wet this cloth ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH What type of fabric was it, can you recall? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I am not certain, I cannot recall the colour, but it was a thickish cloth. MR HATTINGH What was the texture like, fine or coarse? MR DE KOCK It was course, and if one wets it less air would come through. And I then was assisted by a member of the Witbank Security Branch, I can however not recall his name, I can give you a description of what he looks like, and also by W/O van Dyk, and then we closed the door to this truck ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Which van Dyk is this? MR DE KOCK It's the one from the Germiston Security Branch, Karel van Dyk, Chairperson. And I then sat on the chest of this MK member and I closed his mouth with this wet cloth ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH Only his mouth or his nose as well? MR DE KOCK No, it was only over his mouth. And as far as I can recall the person from the Germiston Security Branch squeezed his nose shut ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH With his bare hand? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. ... and we started smothering him. MR HATTINGH Did he offer any resistance? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, he was injured in his leg, he couldn't use his leg and his hands were cuffed on both sides of him to the legs of the seats in the truck and I sat on his chest. MR HATTINGH May I refer you to Exhibit A, the statement from Doctor Holloway, which is attached to this, paragraph 3 he says "The lineal chafe marks on his wrists could have been made by rope or cuffs ..." MR DE KOCK It was cuffs. MR HATTINGH He was cuffed with handcuffs. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. This is the first time I see this statement. MR HATTINGH It was only handed to us when the Committee walked in. And then he says "Lineal chafe marks on the right thigh could have been caused by a rope or a tourniquet fastened around the leg to stop the bleeding." MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. And then W/O Karel van Dyk took notes of what this person said to us. MR HATTINGH And for how long did you continue with this questioning and the torturing which accompanied it? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it was between 15 and 20 minutes, and I depend on a vague recollection, but this is my idea of it. It was not easy for him by nature of the situation, I believe that he endured pain. MR HATTINGH Did he give any information? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, he gave us between four and five addresses with numbers of houses. In the one instance he mentioned that this is where the weapons and explosives would be found. And I had these addresses followed up. I and W/O van Dyk from Germiston, and members of the Special Task Force, then went and we departed. I know I took some of my members along with me, and I'm not mistaken there was a group of askaris with as well for the possible identification of persons as we moved through. And a member of the public who we rounded up there at the scene, I asked him if he knew where this address was, he said "Yes", I told him "Climb into the minibus", he didn't have a choice. The reason why I took him along was to show these addresses to us in order to save time, but in the black residential areas many of the names of the streets, the name boards were removed and I did not want to work according to a chart. MR HATTINGH Before you continue, may I just hear from you, you say you had these addresses checked and now you are saying that you and your group went to one address, did you delegate anybody else to go to any other addresses? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, the persons doing this penetration was myself and my group, the other group had to remain with this person because of the condition in the black residential areas and we wanted to have enough of our people around if a crown would congregate there. MR HATTINGH So you left from the scene where the deceased was. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was the person still alive when you left there? MR DE KOCK Yes, definitely. MR HATTINGH Did you give any instructions to the persons remaining behind, to continue the interrogation? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did you tell them not to? MR DE KOCK No, I did not tell them not to, but I just did not give any instructions for them to do any interrogation. MR HATTINGH When you arrived at the other address, what did you find there? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the first address where we arrived at, the Task Force penetrated the house, not in the main bedroom but in one of the smaller bedrooms according to my memory and as I described it here, I found these items here. There were indeed handgrenades if I recall correctly, and up to today I have a recollection that we found this amount of explosives, demolition charges and an AK47. I may be incorrect. Because of the total of other scenes that we had visited, I might be confusing this, but I do have a recollection that we did find these demolition charges there. And I then ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, when he says "We found these articles", is he looking at paragraph 6 at page 12 of Exhibit C? MR HATTINGH No, Mr Chairman. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I'm on page 4 of my application. MR LAX So that's the last sentence of the first paragraph you're referring to on that page? MR DE KOCK Yes, it is the last four lines, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Now there you mention 2 SPM limpet mines. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH How clear is your recollection about this? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, my recollection is quite clear because I say this because the two cardboard tubes which were sealed with a type of water resistant substance, it was a cherry coloured substance, I found this with the two limpet mines. MR HATTINGH The problem that we have, Mr de Kock, in the later statement which you made, and I will show this to you on page 12, paragraph 6 thereof, no mention is made of limpet mines. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I won't dispute this whole thing but because of the volume of other incidents I may be confused, but I would go into my grave and know that these things were there. I will not dispute it here. MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock, was your unit involved in other similar house penetrations in so-called black residential areas? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, many. MR HATTINGH Where houses were searched and weapons were found? MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So do you say that it is possible that you may be mistaken in this regard? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But what you do recall is that arms and explosives and equipment was found in the house that this person supplied the address of? MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. We however did not find any persons in this house, Chairperson, and we then continued checking the other addresses which were given to us and we penetrated these premises and we did not find anything there and no persons were found there either. MR HATTINGH Did you then return to the initial scene where the deceased had been shot? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And when you arrived there was he still at the scene? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, yes, he was still in the truck. MR HATTINGH Was he still alive or was he dead? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, it was reported to me, and I cannot recall whom it was, that this person had died. MR HATTINGH Did you see if this was the case? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I went and had a look and it was indeed so and among others, I then removed the intravenous feeding. MR HATTINGH Speaking of this, do you have any training and experience in the application of intravenous feeding? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, during my service period in Ovamboland, I would not say hundreds but I applied many of these devices as well as the application of sosegrim(?) which is a substance similar to morphine I think, I think it's a derivative of morphine. I also had training with 5 Recce Commando, as well as a month's training with them, and I know how to set up and apply these devices. MR HATTINGH You say you removed it, what happened to the deceased then? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, he remained in the truck. MR HATTINGH Was he taken away, and to do you recall by whom? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, what had indeed happened was that the Germiston Security Branch contacted the Detective Branch and a Lieutenant or a Captain arrived there along with two other members of the Detective Branch and I made a short report to them that we had shot this person, that he had been an ANC terrorist and that we could not get him to hospital in time - the language was ambiguous, and that he died of his shot wound. MR HATTINGH Very well. MR DE KOCK I did not inform them that we had tortured this person in any manner. MR HATTINGH Did you have any other dealings with the further course of the investigation into his death, or anything in connection with that? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, the Germiston Security Branch continued with their investigation and kept their files up to date. And as I have said to you now, I only heard here this morning that I made this statement and it was not with the same Detective, because I don't even know who took the statement from me. MR HATTINGH It is apparently Lotz, it would appear it was Lt Lotz. - the attestation of it in any event. MR DE KOCK Lotz never sat next to me and took a statement from me, it could be a statement that was harmonised like the others and put before us to sign, but Lotz never sat next to me and wrote out a statement, I did not even write out a statement. MR HATTINGH Very well, let us deal with the statement, you don't have a copy of it so we shall use mine. In paragraph 3 thereof, on page 11 of Exhibit C you say "During the cordoning off of the particular house, a black man appeared in the front door of the house and ran away around the house in a southerly direction." Did you see something like that? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I was busy with the car at which I shot and it would probably have been a report that was made to me, but I did not see something like this. And as I said, I never drew up such a statement. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR HATTINGH And then it reads further "And I heard that someone shouted at this person in Afrikaans and English, to stand still and briefly afterwards I heard four shots." MR DE KOCK Chairperson, we are a counter-terrorist unit, you don't warn a terrorist before you shoot him. MR HATTINGH And you also did not hear this warning shouted in Afrikaans and English? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you were approximately 30 to 40 meters away from there at that stage? MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. I would just like to mention, this might diverge a bit, but I read the victim's statement or the next-of-kin of the victim, and reference is made to a Lt Loots. That Loots is not Loots, that's Lotz. I just wanted to point that out, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then in paragraph 5 you say you received a report about a black man that was injured and you say "I informed the members to keep the black man under observation because I regard the place where the shooting incident had taken place, as unsafe." Did you do this or did you say this? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, we already had an outer circle which - in other words, it was a situation where the outer circle were with their backs to the inner circle and this would have been in an adjacent street. MR HATTINGH Very well. Then you say "Because of information which we had, it was necessary to search the houses in the surrounding area for terrorists and arms." Did this happen? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, we did not search any of the houses next-door or opposite. The askaris did move around there to see if they could see any familiar faces or do identifications. MR HATTINGH And you say in paragraph 6 "During this search ... (in other words, the searching of the houses in the immediate vicinity) ... the equipment was found." The equipment which you just mentioned in your evidence, namely the AK47 firearm, the AK magazines, the rounds, the handgrenades and the detonators and so forth. Were these found in one of the directly surrounding houses? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, because we had to left in minibuses and I would not have had my members walk in groups of two or three, where they could be surrounded by very large crowds. MR HATTINGH And in paragraph 7 you say "At approximately 13H30 ...' ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just before you go on, in paragraph 6 you did give an address of where the weapons were found, which was not in the same street. MR HATTINGH That is correct, yes, Mr Chairman. In paragraph 7 you say - "At approximately 13H30, after the search was done, I declared the area safe and gave instructions that the wounded man receive emergency treatment there." Did you say this? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, two trained medical orderlies attached to the Task Force Pretoria, gave this man emergency treatment. MR HATTINGH This was done, but this was not done at this stage. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, no, it was just after he was shot. MR HATTINGH Then in paragraph 8 "After emergency treatment was given to this man, they reported to me that this man had lost lots of blood because of this wound and I gave instructions that this man be placed on a stretcher and be taken to Bembu Street, approximately 60 metres away. I gave instructions that the wounded black man be made as comfortable as possible in a police minibus, upon which he was taken to Natalspruit Hospital by Lt C J Lotz, attached to the Security Branch Germiston." Is any of that true? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, this was not true for several reasons. We did not drive around with stretchers to carry around terrorists because we did not know whether we would find anybody and the Task Force also did not drive around with stretchers. And furthermore, we would not have taken him to Natalspruit Hospital, but probably to one of the hospitals in Pretoria or Johannesburg. If we took him to Natalspruit he would once again be amongst his people and one could not guard him there. MR HATTINGH And then you say later you heard that the black man upon his arrival, was certified as dead. MR DE KOCK He may have bee certified dead, Chairperson, but I can assure you that he died at the scene. MR HATTINGH And in paragraph 9 you say "Up to this stage the black man could not be identified, the only particulars which were known about him was his MK name and this was Valdez, and that he had received military training under the banner of the African National Congress in Angola." Did you have this information? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I did not have his names, but one our askaris, and I'm trying, I will give his surname to you, it was Lucky - I will get to his surname, but he said that this was MK Valdez, but we didn't have a name, I didn't have a name or surname for him. MR HATTINGH And then furthermore "From the investigation, it appeared that the black man was part of a group of terrorists who were responsible for the Witbank motor vehicle explosion on the 24.10.1998, at 08H14, where two black men were killed and 42 persons were injured." And the Witbank number is given. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, we were completely and thoroughly informed by Witbank's Security men, and I have this recollection that Capt Rorich gave us this information because it was his area, and this is most probably true. MR HATTINGH And then the penultimate paragraph "I found that W/O van Dyk, attached to the Security Branch Germiston, and Sgt L W J Flores, attached to the Security Head Office Pretoria, fired one shot and three shots on the person running away." Is this true? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the person who reported to me that he had fired shots was Sgt Flores, but shortly following on the report which Flores gave to me, van Dyk came to me and told me that he shot the person. MR HATTINGH Did any of them mention any number of shots which were fired at this person? MR DE KOCK Flores mentioned that he had fired one shot at this person, that he had struck him in the leg, van Dyk mentioned more shots, but I cannot recall how many he mentioned. But van Dyk's situation at that stage was - and I will tell you what happened here, it's that he wanted the credit that a terrorist was shot and apprehended here because the moment when it appeared that MK Valdez was dead, van Dyk came to me and said but he did not shoot him. So it's one of those cases. MR HATTINGH I see that in this paragraph reference is made to Sgt L W J Flores, attached to Security Head Office, Pretoria, is this a correct description of his position at that stage? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was Vlakplaas part of head office? MR DE KOCK Yes, Vlakplaas was the base where we worked from but we were attached directly to Security Head Office. MR HATTINGH But would it have been a problem to refer to Vlakplaas, should people want to know at that stage what is Vlakplaas? Was Vlakplaas known at that stage? MR DE KOCK No, it was known to certain members of the Security Branch, but if some of the members gave evidence, they stated that they were based at head office, not at Vlakplaas. MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock, this morning I showed the statement to you which Mr Flores made and the one of van Dyk, it would appear as if the same person was responsible for the use of language in this statement. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, my use of Afrikaans might be old-fashioned as it was when I grew up and then it is not what was used during that time that was normal usage. MR HATTINGH After we've dealt with contents of your statement, would you describe it as a cover-up operation? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, these statements were harmonised in such a manner that the court came to another finding in our favour and in the favour of the State, and this is a different finding to what would have been made if we told what exactly had happened here. MR HATTINGH And such a favourable finding was made in the court in the post-mortem inquest which was held, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is what I saw this morning. I never even made any enquiries about the investigation, I never heard about this aspect whatsoever. MR HATTINGH You cannot recall this statement, but if such a cover-up statement, if I may put it as such, was put before you in March 1989, would you have signed it? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was this a foreign phenomenon amongst you, that such cover-up operations be executed? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, this was standard procedure. MR HATTINGH And the Committee has many-a-time heard of this course of action? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is the signature disputed? MR HATTINGH No, Chairperson. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH The political objective which you put forward for your application is what, Mr de Kock, with regard to this incident? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it was the prevention and combating of terrorism. In this regard persons were sought who had already been trained abroad militarily, with the objective to kill and also in this regard, to prevent that other premises, amongst others as it was mentioned, milk bars where only children go, where they would once again be blown up. I took these steps knowing that it was not right, but that I would strangle this information and these explosives and these weapons out of this man at whatever cost. MR HATTINGH Very well. You did not know MK Valdez before this? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH No personal ill-feelings or feelings of malice towards this person? MR DE KOCK No, none whatsoever, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You also did not gain personally from this operation? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Do you know, Mr de Kock - you say you did not have anything further to do with this matter, do you know what happened to the body of the deceased in the end? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I don't know who handled the person or where this person was buried. MR HATTINGH Were you ever informed about any inquest that was held? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You were also not asked to be present to identify your statement or anything in that regard? MR DE KOCK No, not at all, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON As I understand the arrangement, we will now adjourn the matter, there will be no further questioning, no cross-examination until the various investigations have been completed and until everyone else is ready to continue. We have no fixed date as yet. I understand from the attitude of all of you, when we were discussing this matter, that you were all as anxious as we are to complete it and to finalise it, and I will ask the Evidence Leader to make every effort if any date should become available, to communicate with you, gentlemen, so that we can make arrangements. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, should any further or new information emerge as a result of the further investigations, then obviously I may have to ask you for leave to deal with that in the evidence-in-chief before cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON Oh yes, quite clearly you have only led the evidence you have, on the basis of what is before us at the present time. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything further anyone else wishes to say? We now adjourn till tomorrow morning - or Thursday? Thursday. MS LOCKHAT Thursday, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What time? Nine thirty, gentlemen? I've warned you that I may be a little late on Friday, if we're still going on, but we'll now adjourn till nine thirty on Thursday morning. MS LOCKHAT All rise. MK VALDEZ MATTER ADJOURNED TO A DATE TO BE ARRANGED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS