amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-25 PRETORIA 7 NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE NICK VAN RENSBURG https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53912&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991125pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Do we now hear from General van Rensburg? There's no one else that's going to give evidence before that is there? We've heard about Bellingan if required he'll be available tomorrow? MR VICTOR Thank you. Chairperson, before I advise my client to give evidence I would like to determine from you whether it is correct, according to our understanding of the subpoena that he is here to give evidence regarding the instruction which was supposed to have been given regarding the attempt to murder Mr Coetzee. In other words that would be no cross-examination of him with regard to any other matters in which may allegedly may have been involved? CHAIRPERSON I cannot give any such undertaking, he is being called to give evidence because he has filed an affidavit in this matter which conflicts directly with the evidence of Mr de Kock. It is impossible for us to adjudicate fairly on a matter where one witness has been subjected to cross-examination and the other merely submits an affidavit. For that reason we directed that General van Rensburg should be subpoenaed to give evidence. But if anyone has reason to wish to attack his credibility on those issues by asking other questions I do not see that one can say no. He then becomes a witness before us. MR VICTOR Yes but in that case Chairperson we would request that when questions are posed regarding other matters and there are records available we at least be placed in possession of those records. It would be expected of my client to delve into his memory regarding matters which took place at least 10 to 12 years ago and we would request that he at least be granted the opportunity to prepare adequately. CHAIRPERSON I don't know if anybody intends in fact to cross-examine about matters other than the present one, it may be that there are other matters because I think he made comments on Mr de Kock didn't he? Rather general comments. MR HATTINGH Yes Mr Chairperson, subject to your leave intend to cross-examine General van Rensburg on other matters than the Mlangeni matter inasmuch as it has a bearing on motive and on credibility, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But do you agree it's fair if you are relying on notes or records you have of those other matters that they should be made available? If you're merely relying on your client's instructions that is a different matter? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairperson, what I'm going to rely on that I can think of at the moment is the book or the so called manuscript written by Dirk Coetzee and then also possibly the affidavit of General van Rensburg which he deposed to in one of his amnesty applications. CHAIRPERSON I don't think there's any objection to him being referred to his own affidavit but on the other, I think, if you could make available the passages you wish to refer to. I take it that you haven't got a copy of this? MR VICTOR We do not have a copy of that and we would like that and we would like the opportunity also to go through it before we decide whether General van Rensburg will testify. CHAIRPERSON I don't want to commit myself, my recollection is that I have a copy of this upstairs...(inaudible) Mr Hattingh now about it and we will continue at 2 o'clock. MR VICTOR Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn till 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR BOOYENS We've got the two Kok brothers here, we are looking at ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON They've come to see us have they? MR BOOYENS But they're unfortunately very informally dressed, the one came off a building site. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we just thought it would be a good idea if they could see the exhibits which they weren't shown when they gave evidence so that if they had any comments or anything they can bring them forward. MR BOOYENS My attorney is still busy with them, Mr Chairperson, I will communicate with you in due course. CHAIRPERSON Now your attorney is not busy with something else at the moment. Yes if they have any information, I don't know, perhaps the others of you have thought about it, it may not be necessary for them even to give evidence if they just wish to comment on the exhibits that have now become available which they saw eight years or nine years ago. MR LAMEY Chairperson, may I also just say I have also checked on the date or asked that it be checked, the 15th February 1991, it was confirmed to be a Friday. MR VICTOR Thank you Chairperson, I call General Nick van Rensburg as a witness. NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VICTOR Mr van Rensburg, you are aware of the fact that you are implicated by the applicant in this matter in the alleged attempt to murder Dirk Coetzee and the consequent death of Mr Mlangeni, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR VICTOR You have already completed an affidavit which has been read into the record and a statement was made on the 9th November 1999? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR VICTOR Do you confirm the contents thereof as correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I can confirm it as correct. MR VICTOR And then the final question, did you give the instruction which lead to the death of Mr Mlangeni? MR VAN RENSBURG No, definitely not. MR VICTOR That is his evidence, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VICTOR CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairperson. General, may I just obtain some background information from you? Before you were stationed at Vlakplaas you were respectively in the Eastern Transvaal and thereafter stationed in the Eastern Cape, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And if I say in the Eastern Transvaal at which town were you stationed? MR VAN RENSBURG In Ermelo. MR HATTINGH Security Branch? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Were you in command of that branch? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And back then did you know Mr Coetzee? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I did. MR HATTINGH Where was he stationed while you were stationed in Ermelo? MR VAN RENSBURG After me he arrived there in the Eastern Transvaal and he was stationed at Oshoek Border Post. MR HATTINGH And while you - let's refer to the Eastern Transvaal as it was known then, while you were stationed in the Eastern Transvaal Mr Coetzee was only at Oshoek, stationed at Oshoek? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I think that's correct. I beg your pardon, may I just make a correction here, he insofar as I know before he arrived at Oshoek he was at Volksrust. MR HATTINGH So he was in the Eastern Transvaal at Volksrust and then to Oshoek and to which unit was he attached to at Volksrust? MR VAN RENSBURG He was a station commander of the uniformed branch. MR HATTINGH I assume that while you were stationed in Ermelo you had dealings with him from time to time? MR VAN RENSBURG When he was at Oshoek, yes. MR HATTINGH And thereafter would you be able to give me dates when did you take over command of Ermelo? MR VAN RENSBURG The 1st January 1974. MR HATTINGH '74 you say? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And how long were you stationed there? MR VAN RENSBURG For seven years. MR HATTINGH And can you recall when you departed from there? MR VAN RENSBURG I think it was the end of 1979 if I recall correctly. MR HATTINGH Or 1981? MR VAN RENSBURG No, '79. I think on the 1st January 1980 I started in P.E. MR HATTINGH And you have now said the 1st January 1980 you started in Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And in which capacity did you commence there, what was your rank then? MR VAN RENSBURG I think that I arrived there as a major. Yes, I think I arrived there as a major. MR HATTINGH But were you a commander of the branch when you went there? MR VAN RENSBURG No, not in Port Elizabeth. MR HATTINGH Were you attached to the Security Branch there? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Who was the commander there when you arrived there? MR VAN RENSBURG He was then Colonel, now General Erasmus. MR HATTINGH Was this Gerhard Erasmus? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH Were you second in command there? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH You were still lower down in the ranks? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH How long were you stationed in Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG I think for seven years as well. I think if I recall correctly up to the end of '87 I think. Yes, '87. MR HATTINGH So more or less in the beginning of '88 you started elsewhere? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is right. MR HATTINGH And was this at Vlakplaas? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I first went to Paarl. From '88, the beginning of 1988 up to March 1989. MR HATTINGH Very well and from there? MR VAN RENSBURG From there Security Head Office, Pretoria. MR HATTINGH Would that have been from April? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, the first of April 1989. MR HATTINGH And to which unit were you attached at head office, were you in command of a certain unit? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, in April when I started at head office I was in command of Group E which consisted of quite a few various units for example E1, E2, E3. MR HATTINGH And what was the subject that they dealt with? MR VAN RENSBURG The one unit dealt with control and monitoring of all security matters, relevant matters in the country, in other words matters that were ready for the courts or where there were suspects or persons who were charged to control how the investigation progressed through the courts. MR HATTINGH But these were security matters? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct and then there was another one of the units that dealt with - you have to excuse me, I speak of Section 29 detentions during certain times it was another section. MR HATTINGH Are you referring to detentions in terms of security legislation? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that unit dealt with that, to get the applications to the minister for detentions and so forth the administration work involved in there. MR HATTINGH And you were in command of Group E up to when? MR VAN RENSBURG Up to the end of 1990. MR HATTINGH Where did you go then? MR VAN RENSBURG I then went to Cape Town. Beginning of 1991 I went to Cape Town. MR HATTINGH Were you not at some stage in command of C Section? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that was during that time. From the 1st April 1989 up to the end of October 1989 I was in command of Group E and from the 1st November 1990 I was in charge of Group C and Group E and from 1989 Group C was also handed to me. MR HATTINGH And we know that C consisted of C1, C2 and C3, you were in command of all three of the sub-divisions of Group C? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And C1 was the unit that was stationed at Vlakplaas? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH For how many incidents have you applied for amnesty? MR VAN RENSBURG For six incidents. MR HATTINGH At this stage I do not want too much detail, would you briefly tell us what each incident is about or maybe I should ask this question, have they all been heard, the six that you have applied for? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH How many have to be heard? MR VAN RENSBURG Two. MR HATTINGH Let us start with the four that has already been heard, can you briefly tell us what this was about? MR VAN RENSBURG The one instance is the Siphiwe Mthimkhulu matter in the Eastern Cape. MR HATTINGH Yes briefly, what was this about? MR VAN RENSBURG This was a man who was detained and it was alleged that he was poisoned and then he was released and then sometime after he was released he was killed. MR HATTINGH By whom was he killed? MR VAN RENSBURG Well I applied for the killing. MR HATTINGH But did you kill him, General? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I did. MR HATTINGH You alone or you and others? MR VAN RENSBURG No, others along with me. MR HATTINGH And who gave the instruction that he was to be killed? MR VAN RENSBURG General Erasmus. MR HATTINGH General Erasmus? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes General Erasmus, then Colonel Erasmus. MR HATTINGH And what was the reason why did he have to be killed? MR VAN RENSBURG He was a person who incited the population to violence in the Black areas and there was a case where he wanted to kill a police officer. MR HATTINGH He was an activist? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes he was an activist, that is correct. And also the schools, he had an influence in the schools, in disrupting schools if I recall correctly. MR HATTINGH You will agree with me that the security police did not kill all activists who were involved in such activities? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I would just like to add that another reason was that after the poisoning story his stature grew immensely as an activist and as a person who could render the country or the Eastern Cape ungovernable. MR HATTINGH When was this? MR VAN RENSBURG It had to be either 1980 or 1981, I think it was 1981. MR HATTINGH While you were stationed in Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And I have made available extracts from a manuscript of Dirk Coetzee to your legal representative and he also refers to this incident in this manuscript, on page 78, his description commences. I do not want to burden this Committee with that whole incident and have them hearing the whole incident all over again. I would just like to compare the incidents which you have applied for amnesty for to the current one. On page 78 did you study his description of the incident during lunchtime? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I have. MR HATTINGH Do you agree in essence with it? MR VAN RENSBURG No I do not agree with it in essence. MR HATTINGH Is there an important aspect that you differ from him? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, with regard to the poisoning, I was not involved with the poisoning, I don't know who was responsible for it but I was an accomplice in the murder and death of Mr Mthimkhulu. MR HATTINGH And where in the country did you kill this person, this Mr Mthimkhulu? MR VAN RENSBURG It was a place close to Craddock. MR HATTINGH And in which manner was he killed? MR VAN RENSBURG He was shot dead and his body was then burnt. MR HATTINGH His body was then burnt? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH That gives us the Mthimkhulu matter. That is one incident that has already been heard, please supply us with the following one? MR VAN RENSBURG Kondile. MR HATTINGH Kondile? May I return to Mthimkhulu, who fired the shot that killed him, was it you? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And you shot him with your service pistol? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Do you still have that weapon? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH That is the information that Mr de Kock gave to me that you shot the person with your service pistol that you still have up to today, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And then Kondile? Also once again as described by Mr Coetzee in his book is that not so? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Chairperson, I think that you possibly may not have that section because I was informed that he had already been granted amnesty in respect of that one but may I ask the witness just to give us a brief background on what happened there? What were the facts of the Kondile matter? MR VAN RENSBURG Kondile was a trained what we called a terrorist, he was arrested and he was detained in the Eastern Cape. While in detention I was not tasked with his investigation or his questioning myself, I'm just telling you what I know of it. While he was in detention he promised that he would co-operate and he would bring information from Lesotho with regard to infiltrations of the ANC and so forth. He was according to my information, he was given a contact address in Lesotho where he had to take us information to and so forth and some day the investigative official went to visit him there and amongst his clothing while this man was in the toilet the investigating official found a note which he wanted to smuggle out to the ANC to warn them that the police had now recruited him as a type of double agent and on the grounds thereof it was decided because if we released him now that he would throw a spanner in our works and ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH Do you know who took this decision? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, we were together, General Erasmus, myself and the investigative police officer, Colonel du Plessis. MR HATTINGH And who executed the act? MR VAN RENSBURG Du Plessis and I and another man, he was a Sergeant Raath and Dirk Coetzee. MR HATTINGH This was the case where the person's body was burnt in a dry river bed in Komatiepoot or next to a river? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes next to a river bed. MR HATTINGH And you were present there? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I was. MR LAX Just one question, is this same Du Plessis that's referred to in this proceedings? MR VAN RENSBURG Herman Du Plessis? MR LAX Yes. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR LAX Thanks. MR HATTINGH You said that you were braaing and drinking there while the body was being burnt? That's what he said before the Goldstone Commission or the Harmse Commission? MR VAN RENSBURG No that was not correct, we braaied meat and we enjoyed some drinks. We first waited for it to become dark a little. MR HATTINGH How was he killed? MR VAN RENSBURG He was shot. MR HATTINGH Once again by whom? MR VAN RENSBURG By a man from Komatiepoot, Roy Otto. MR HATTINGH Rorich? MR VAN RENSBURG No, Roy Otto. MR HATTINGH Roy Otto, thank you. Let's continue to the next incident General? MR VAN RENSBURG Motherwell. MR HATTINGH Motherwell. Many of us know what Motherwell was about but I don't think any of the current Committee Members sat in the amnesty application in that case is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Motherwell, no. MR HATTINGH Can you briefly tell us what Motherwell was about? MR VAN RENSBURG Motherwell was about four police officers who according to information had clandestinely walked over to the ANC and had started giving information to them and they would also have pointed out a vehicle to the ANC, a Security Branch vehicle, where a bomb would be hidden in and they furthermore participated in the murders of Goniwe. MR HATTINGH The murders of who? Matthew Goniwe is that who you refer to? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, they were involved there. MR HATTINGH And you were afraid that they would disclose this information to the ANC? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH Were you involved in the Goniwe matter? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I was. MR HATTINGH We will arrive at that. So he could also incriminate you in the killing of people is that not so, these four persons could incriminate you if they relayed that information to the ANC? MR VAN RENSBURG Not directly. In this regard if I may explain if they did not know that I was involved and indeed they did not know they were involved up to a certain stage. MR HATTINGH But they could finger the other police officers who were involved there? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And who took the decision that they had to be eliminated? MR VAN RENSBURG Brigadier Gilbert. MR HATTINGH Was he also attached to the security police Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Was he in command. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes he was in command. MR HATTINGH Where was Erasmus at that stage? MR VAN RENSBURG I think Erasmus was either in Pretoria or in Johannesburg. MR HATTINGH He had already been transferred by then? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Who then planned the Motherwell operation? MR VAN RENSBURG I would say that Herman du Plessis and ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH Nieuwoudt? MR VAN RENSBURG No Nieuwoudt was not involved. MR HATTINGH Was he not? MR VAN RENSBURG No he was not involved there. Sakkie van Zyl, I think the two of them did the planning for that. MR HATTINGH And what role did you play in this matter. MR VAN RENSBURG My role was that Colonel Du Plessis - I beg your pardon, Colonel Snyman requested me to speak to Herman Du Plessis and Sakkie van Zyl to hear if they could do some planning with regard to Goniwe and his collaborators. MR HATTINGH I am busy with Motherwell, who did the planning for the Motherwell operation? This what you told us now has relation to Goniwe. Let us first deal with Motherwell. Who did the planning of Motherwell from Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG Nieuwoudt. MR HATTINGH Nieuwoudt? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And who else was involved? MR VAN RENSBURG From Port Elizabeth? MR HATTINGH Yes from Port Elizabeth. MR VAN RENSBURG Afterwards I heard who was all involved there that I did not know at that stage were involved but afterwards I heard who else was involved and with their applications I heard who these people were. You know the version and I was not involved myself here, I go according to what was told to me and I think Mr Booyens was involved there, he will assist me if I'm mistaken but the reason that was advanced was that these police officers were involved in fraud and theft of money that was intercepted from - just one moment Chairperson? MR HATTINGH: Very well, it was suggested that these policemen were involved in fraud and the theft of monies, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes there was something like that. MR HATTINGH And such a charge was investigated against them by other policemen? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I think that that is correct. MR HATTINGH And isn't it also so that it was suggested that these policemen then said well, if you want to prosecute us for this crime and this fraud we will then tell all about the things that we know about? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I don't know anything about that. MR HATTINGH And that was the reason they had to be eliminated? MR VAN RENSBURG No, no Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Whatever the case may be, General, according to your version the Motherwell Four as they have been referred to, had to be eliminated because they were busy defecting to the ANC and they possessed information which could seriously impede the security police, would that be a concise summary of the matter? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I would say so. MR HATTINGH And then an appeal was made to head office for assistance in this regard? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And who was consulted? MR VAN RENSBURG Brigadier Gilbert spoke to me. MR HATTINGH And you spoke to who? MR VAN RENSBURG I spoke to Mr de Kock. MR HATTINGH So you then approached Mr de Kock? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And you wanted him to assist you? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And he and members of the technical division of the police such as Wal du Toit and one of the Kok brothers as well as further members from Vlakplaas then went down to Port Elizabeth to assist with this matter? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And a bomb was planted in a vehicle in which these four persons would be travelling? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And by means of remote control this bomb was then detonated, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And the four gentlemen were then killed as a result of this explosion? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH Very well. When did the Motherwell incident take place Mr van Rensburg? MR VAN RENSBURG If you would just give me a moment, I will attempt to recall? I think that it was in 1990. MR HATTINGH The date of the 14th December 1989 has just been given to me. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that could be correct. MR HATTINGH Could that be correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And you were still in Port Elizabeth, that is where you were stationed? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH Were you already up here? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH So who from Port Elizabeth spoke to you? MR VAN RENSBURG Brigadier Gilbert. MR HATTINGH And you went to speak with Mr de Kock? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH So you actually gave him an instruction? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH Because you were then his commander? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR HATTINGH That would be the third incident for which you have applied for amnesty which has already been heard. Can we move to the fourth incident, General, please? MR VAN RENSBURG That would be the incident pertaining to the Craddock Four, Goniwe and others. MR HATTINGH Can you tell us when this incident took place? MR VAN RENSBURG I think that it was during 1985. MR HATTINGH And where were you stationed then? MR VAN RENSBURG In Port Elizabeth. MR HATTINGH Port Elizabeth? And very briefly, what are the facts pertaining to this incident? MR VAN RENSBURG These persons or at least Matthew Goniwe and another one of them were teachers in Craddock and they had brought the entire educational system there to a standstill. There were boycotts and it went over into violence at some of these places, there were also shop boycotts and general destabilisation of the area. MR HATTINGH They had rendered the area ungovernable? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Were they involved in any killings? MR VAN RENSBURG There was certain information. MR HATTINGH Very well. Their actions took the form of civil resistance, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that was part of it. MR HATTINGH And then it was decided to do what with them? MR VAN RENSBURG That they had to be eliminated. MR HATTINGH Who took the decision? MR VAN RENSBURG Well my instruction in that regard came from Colonel Snyman. MR HATTINGH Was he the then commander of the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And who executed the order? MR VAN RENSBURG Physically it was executed by someone who was not immediately known to me, it was only a few years later that I found out who participated on ground level operationally speaking. It was Sakkie van Zyl as I have stated, Gerhard Lotz. MR HATTINGH Was there a Taylor? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH Eric Taylor? MR VAN RENSBURG Eric Taylor yes that is correct and then there were Black members. The four black members whose names I can no longer recall quite well. MR HATTINGH Would those be the four Black members who were killed during the Motherwell incident? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Were they also involved in the Craddock Four incident? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Were there any Vlakplaas askaris who were involved in this matter? MR VAN RENSBURG I think that one was an askari who had formally served at Vlakplaas. I would imagine but I'm not certain. I think so, but I suspect that I may be mistaken, he may have come after me to Port Elizabeth, he doesn't really ring a bell in my mind but during the amnesty hearing I was led to understand that he was an askari but he doesn't really ring a bell in my mind. MR HATTINGH Very well and how were these members killed? MR VAN RENSBURG With a car bomb. MR HATTINGH Aren't you thinking of Motherwell now? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH To which members did you refer? MR VAN RENSBURG I'm referring to the Craddock Four, Goniwe and the others. MR HATTINGH I beg your pardon, yes. MR VAN RENSBURG Well according to the members who executed the operation somewhere they had apprehended these persons along the road and took them to a certain place and it was there that they were shot dead as I understand. Some of the bodies were also burnt there, some distance away from the scene of the incident if I recall correctly. MR HATTINGH Was some of them stabbed with knives? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I think that knives were used. MR HATTINGH So knives were used? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH In order to create a certain impression? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH That had been Black on Black violence? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I don't know, when I was present when this matter was discussed before it's execution still the plan was to make it appear as if it had been an ordinary robbery, in other words some form of a hi-jacking, a hi-jacking of vehicles, then the persons were stabbed to death and their wallets and items were removed to make it appear to be a robbery but that was not exactly how it worked out. MR HATTINGH Very well and then there are two further incidents for which you have requested amnesty which have not been heard. Can you tell us what they are very briefly? MR VAN RENSBURG Well both are cases which took place in Swaziland, the one has to do with an incident during which two so-called ANC safe houses were blown up in Swaziland. MR HATTINGH Would that be one of the incidents pertaining to Coetzee that he has described in his memorandum? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Very well, is this the incident during which the one house or structure contained a child which was killed and then the other an ANC member was killed and three were allegedly injured? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And this took place while you were still stationed at Ermelo? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH What gave rise to the action against these persons? MR VAN RENSBURG The fact that these houses, according to our information, were applied in order to accommodate trained infiltrators in Swaziland and then at the right time they were to infiltrate into the Republic in order to come and do whatever their orders were. Our information indicated that the Swaziland government protested to the ANC in connection with the arrest of these infiltrators who had weapons. They told the ANC, "please you are embarrassing us with the South African Government" and they then went over into the detection of such houses and to bring the weapons into the country and to establish stockpiles. The persons would then infiltrate via Swaziland without the weapons and there had been various incidents of terrorism by persons who had infiltrated via those routes. MR HATTINGH I beg your pardon to interrupting you, with regard to these two incidents, I would like to keep it as short and concise as possible because I do not wish to impede your application in any way. So you had information that they were involved in ANC activities and that these two houses were applied as transit houses for the purposes of infiltration by liberation fighters from Swaziland into the Republic of South Africa? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is completely correct. MR HATTINGH And who took the decision that an attack be launched on them? MR VAN RENSBURG Well I discussed this matter with my commander in the Eastern Transvaal in Middleburg. MR HATTINGH Who was this person? MR VAN RENSBURG Brigadier van der Hoover. MR HATTINGH Yes and what did he say, did he say that you were supposed to act against these persons? MR VAN RENSBURG Well I told him that things could not continue like this because a Black member of mine had already been attacked in Ermelo in his home with hand grenades and two of his children had been very seriously injured and it was during the same period that the SASOL incidents took place and I told him that things could not continue in this line because these persons had free access via Swaziland and we had to make some kind of a plan with this. He stated that he agreed with me and that he would notify me whether we could continue with any form of planning to deal with this matter and to combat it. MR HATTINGH Did you eventually receive an order from him to continue with the operation? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH You were involved with this, who else was involved? MR VAN RENSBURG There was a warrant officer, Dirk Coetzee himself, Warrant Officer Hattingh, Warrant Officer Rorich. MR HATTINGH Any Vlakplaas members? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH Did you rely in any way on the assistance of the technical division in Pretoria in this regard? MR VAN RENSBURG Not that I am aware of, I had no share in the manufacturing of the explosive device, I also never saw it so I cannot assist you in that regard. MR HATTINGH In any event events the attack was launched and we have determined that at least two persons were killed during this attack as well as three who were injured? MR VAN RENSBURG I think three persons were killed. MR HATTINGH Well there were two separate explosions. Did you report about your action in this regard once again? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH To your commander? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH Did he tell you whether you had obtained approval from head office for you to continue with this operation? MR VAN RENSBURG No, he didn't tell me. MR HATTINGH Very well. This gives us the fifth incident, can we proceed to the sixth incident? MR VAN RENSBURG The sixth incident was actually - how can one put this? It was a bomb which was put together but it was put together in such a fashion that it could not detonate and it was placed on a railway line. The purpose behind this was to attempt to make the Swaziland Government aware. The contents of the bomb if I recall correctly were of Russian origin. ...(inaudible) the Swaziland government that the ANC was quite careless with these explosives in their country in order to see whether or not the Swaziland Government would prohibit them thoroughfare and this was something which could never go off unless as I understood, it was detonated with other explosives. I'm not an expert in this field but the entire idea was not to cause damage or to injure anybody in that case. MR HATTINGH Was anybody injured or was any damage incurred? MR VAN RENSBURG No, none, the bomb was detected on the railway line and ironically enough the Swaziland Police enlisted our assistance to defuse the bomb which we then did. MR HATTINGH The incident that you have just discussed is the incident that Coetzee mentions on page 56, the Parker Railway Line Bomb? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And then just for purposes of the record, the previous incident that you discussed pertaining to the explosions in the transit houses is described by him from page 95 onwards, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Sorry, I've just seen the bundle you've given us, would that be F? MR HATTINGH There are actually two bundles, two sets of documents, one is the extract from the manuscript of Coetzee and the other one is the copy of General van Rensburg's application, his affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Then that would be G then. MR HATTINGH Thank you. Do I understand you correctly that the intention was for this bomb not to detonate? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH So no damage was incurred and no injuries were recorded? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH Now General, for how long altogether were you attached to the security police or the security division of the South African Police? MR VAN RENSBURG From 1 December 1968 to 30 June 1992. Am I correct? Yes. MR HATTINGH And in your affidavit which was submitted and which was marked Exhibit C paragraph 9 thereof on page 2 you state "I have applied for amnesty with regard to six incidents of serious gross human rights violations. If I was in any way involved in the conspiracy to kill Dirk Coetzee and the murder of Bheki Mlangeni, I would also have applied for amnesty for these cases." Do you wish to say by that, General, that because you applied for, or that you have applied for incidents in which you were involved in gross human rights violations? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH For this period, 1968 to 1992? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And therefore you are not afraid of being examined regarding other incidents because there is no danger that you would be incriminating yourself in those cases? MR VAN RENSBURG No I don't believe so. MR HATTINGH Very well, before I get to that just a few singular general aspects, the killing of political opponents or even of former colleagues who posed a threat to you as the security police was not a foreign principle to you? MR VAN RENSBURG A foreign concept, what do you mean by that? MR HATTINGH Well this wasn't something that was strange, you had been involved yourself in similar incidents? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And specifically in the case of Motherwell, these were colleagues who were killed isn't that so? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH Because they were a danger or a threat to their colleagues in the police? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH In that case for all policemen and possibly also for the public? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH But among others specifically to the police and the threat that they posed to the police was the fact that they were involved in crimes and that they could disclose or expose these crimes? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And would you then agree with me, General, that for you as a security policeman it was quite important that the security police's involvement in such deeds not come to light? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH Because you believed that it was not only in your best interests but also in the general best interests of the South African Police? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes and the government of the day. MR HATTINGH Yes and the government and the safety of the public and so forth? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH So if it was necessary according to your judgement you were prepared to issue instructions or alternatively to carry out instructions in killing people? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH Let us then deal very briefly with the following, I don't wish to spend too much time on these other allegations that Coetzee has embodied in his manuscript. On page 50 he states that you were accused of being involved in the theft of vehicles from Swaziland I think which would then be delivered to the former Rhodesian Police in order to replace vehicles of theirs which had been damaged. Are you aware of this? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH On page 52 he refers to theft from the offices of the United Nations for refugees in Swaziland and that you were involved in this? MR VAN RENSBURG I deny this, I really don't know. It was not necessary for me to break in there to obtain information. I had more than enough better agents and sources at my disposal. MR HATTINGH Does he allege that the thefts were committed in order to obtain information? MR VAN RENSBURG Well I cannot see any other purpose behind that, I cannot see any other purpose with breaking into the offices of the United Nations for refugees. The only purpose why the Security Branch would be interested in breaking in there was to obtain information about refugees. I can see no other reason why security personnel would have wanted to break in there or perhaps they wished to damage the property of political opponents. Yes, I suppose one could say that, there may have been persons who reasoned as such but to me there was no option to do something like that. MR HATTINGH Very well, we will leave that incident there. On page 54 he mentions a bomb at the Manzini Post Office? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH He states that his information was based upon what you and one Chris Deetlefs and Chris Rorich had told him? MR VAN RENSBURG Chairperson, I see what he has said, I would just like to say that on a certain morning the then commissioner of the Swaziland Police telephoned me and stated that he wished to see me and asked me whether I could drive up to Mbabane. I told him that I would go, I drove there directly, he discussed a case with me and while we were seated in his office the phone rang and there was a call that a bomb had exploded in a post office and after I had left the commissioner I went back through the Oshoek Border Post and I told Coetzee what had taken place while I was there with the commissioner, that a bomb had apparently exploded at their post office. If I recall correctly it was in Manzini and this is what I know about the incident, this is what I told Coetzee. MR HATTINGH You say that you had attempted to give Swaziland the impression that the ANC were irresponsible with explosives in their country, if I may put it as briefly as that? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes irresponsible and smuggling it through to the Republic. MR HATTINGH You wanted to cause the Swaziland Government to act against the ANC and to have them no longer make use of their area in order to infiltrate South Africa? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that was the reason for the bomb on the railway line. MR HATTINGH You deny the allegation of Coetzee on page 54? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH Very well, I won't spend any more time there. On page 55 he refers to the driver of a landcruiser who was led into an ambush and on the final paragraph of the page he says "Amongst those involved from Pietermaritzburg were Brigadier Hans Dreyer, Gerrie and Sakkie Fourie, Sergeant Basie Erwee and from Eastern Transvaal there were Brigadier van der Hooven, Major Archie Flemmington from Lebombo, some of Major Flemmington's men, Major Nick van Rensburg from Ermelo and his men as well as Captain Gert van Wyk from Nelspruit and his men." MR VAN RENSBURG I was not involved in this incident at all. MR HATTINGH Do you have any knowledge of this incident? MR VAN RENSBURG No I don't. MR HATTINGH If such an incident had taken place during which a person was lured into an ambush and killed there in the vicinity where you were stationed it would have come to your knowledge wouldn't it? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I did hear from Swaziland that a person that some or other incident had taken place there and I cannot recall whether it was a member of the Swaziland Police and it went according to some person who was kidnapped along the road and they don't know what happened to him. MR HATTINGH Can you recall who the person was that was abducted? MR VAN RENSBURG No I cannot. Something tells me he was an ANC member apparently. MR HATTINGH And who was he handed over to after he was abducted according to the information you received? MR VAN RENSBURG I do not know. MR HATTINGH Did you know a person by the name of Khela, K-H-E-L-A? MR VAN RENSBURG In all honesty I cannot say no and I cannot say yes. There was much information about many people and many couriers of the ANC and many of them used false names, Khela, Khela could be any, I don't know what the meaning of the word Khela is, I cannot say that I knew of him. I cannot give you an honest answer there. MR HATTINGH Would you say where Coetzee implicates you and incriminates you in this matter he is not speaking the truth? MR VAN RENSBURG No he is not. MR HATTINGH And then there are singular other incidents which are of a lesser serious nature in the sense that no deaths or injuries were recorded, I shall just briefly mention this to you on page 72. He tells of an activist from P.E. or from Uitenhage in whose vehicle was stolen and he alleges that you handed the key of the vehicle over to him and said that the vehicle belonged to an activist and then it had to be arranged that the vehicle be stolen, the vehicle was stolen. Is there any truth about that in that allegation? MR VAN RENSBURG I don't know if any truth is in there because I do not have any knowledge of this incident. MR HATTINGH And if he incriminates you there once again he is not speaking the truth? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes he is not speaking the truth. MR HATTINGH And then on page 76 - Mr Chairperson, it would appear that we haven't got a copy of this one, I think I gave a page reference to Ms Lockhat but I may have missed it. I shall refer to it in the manuscript and then perhaps we can make copies of that and include it in the bundle at a later stage? Page 76: "Theft of Union kombi. One afternoon Colonel Willem Schoon phoned to Vlakplaas to say I should urgently phone Colonel Nick van Rensburg at Port Elizabeth. I phoned Nick and he said that a number of Union members from P.E. were on their way to Harare for a Union Congress in a Volkswagen Kombi. They would stay overnight in Johannesburg where they would be joined by other Union members." And then he continues and says that it was asked of you to steal the vehicle so that they could not undertake this drive of theirs, do you know anything about that? MR VAN RENSBURG No I don't. MR HATTINGH And on page 77 he says "After the vehicle was stolen I phoned Nick from Vlakplaas and told him the good news. Nick was very pleased and suggested that we should sell the kombi in Swaziland." Is there any truth in that allegation? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH He concludes this chapter on page 78 by saying "Colonel Nick van Rensburg later told me of the chaos caused by this theft, the kombi was so new that it had not even been insured yet. On their return to Port Elizabeth the Union people tried to get a back dated insurance but Nick picked this up and through an anonymous call to the insurance company tried to thwart their efforts." Do you know anything about that? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH So Coetzee is here maliciously trying to defame you and trying to involve you in incidents where you were not involved? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, some of these allegations are not true and Coetzee went so far as to make an allegation that I was involved in Ruth First's murder and you can have a look, I think I understand that there were some people who applied for amnesty in that incident and I was really not involved there so he makes allegations, serious allegations. MR HATTINGH But some of these allegations that he levels against you is in essence correct to the extent that you applied for amnesty for these acts? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH So not everything that he said about you were lies? MR VAN RENSBURG No, not everything. MR HATTINGH Can you think of a reason why he speaks the truth with regard to your involvement in some things, serious things and then he lies about less serious offences? MR VAN RENSBURG I don't know what his motivation is but I have the impression that at some stage he impressed the ANC with what he knew and who he could implicate in incidents and that afterwards he tried to make the truth out of hearsay. MR HATTINGH Very well. Bear with me a moment Mr Chairperson, I'm just consulting my notes? May I just take instructions from Mr de Kock on one aspect Mr Chairperson? Thank you Mr Chairperson. There was also an incident which was described as the PEBCO Three, are you aware of that incident? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I am aware of it. MR HATTINGH Where did this happen? MR VAN RENSBURG In the Eastern Cape in Craddock if I recall correctly. MR HATTINGH And who was involved in this incident? MR VAN RENSBURG The persons who applied for amnesty in that case ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH No, I shall ask my question again, I do not want to know who applied for amnesty, I want to know whom according to you were involved there? MR VAN RENSBURG No Sir, I don't know. MR HATTINGH You don't know, you were not involved there? MR VAN RENSBURG No I wasn't. MR HATTINGH Then, when the incident had taken place, were you still stationed in Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And now I ask you, do you know who applied for this incident? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I hope I can still recall all the names. MR HATTINGH Please tell us these names? MR VAN RENSBURG Du Plessis. MR HATTINGH This is once again Herman du Plessis? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. Nieuwoudt, I think Sakkie van Zyl, Gerhard Lotz and then I think there were some Vlakplaas persons involved. MR HATTINGH Yes that is what I want to surmise, were Vlakplaas people involved according to the applications. I know I am asking hearsay information from you but let me ask you according to what you heard what was the reason for the action against these so-called PEBCO Three? MR VAN RENSBURG I would not be able to give you details as to the reasons in their applications but it boiled down to the fact of their activities as their activists in the Eastern Cape, the rendering ungovernable of the vicinity, the school boycotts, the general violence and so forth. MR HATTINGH And they were then killed? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And some of the members of the branch where you were attached to applied for amnesty for this matter? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And you say you had no knowledge of this whatsoever? MR VAN RENSBURG No I did not know about it. MR HATTINGH Who was the commander then? MR VAN RENSBURG Colonel Snyman. MR HATTINGH And after him? MR VAN RENSBURG I think I was also there at that stage. MR HATTINGH Yes, you were second in command at that stage and here were some of your members with the assistance of Vlakplaas members had killed three activists and they hide all information from you? MR VAN RENSBURG That is what happened. MR HATTINGH Did they also not tell Snyman about this, I forget what his rank was? MR VAN RENSBURG No I speak under correction but I think he also applied for amnesty for this. MR HATTINGH Do you not find it strange that your commander and the men subordinate to you were involved in such a controversial incident and you who were second in command of this didn't know anything about it? MR VAN RENSBURG No, this does not strike me as strange, this is how many of these things were done. I don't know what Colonel Snyman's motivation was for some or other reason he did not want to involve me in this incident, that's all I can think about. MR HATTINGH When did this PEBCO incident take place? May I just tell you my information says April/May 1985. MR VAN RENSBURG I won't dispute that. MR HATTINGH You will not dispute that and with that date in mind how long afterwards were you transferred to Pretoria? MR VAN RENSBURG Transferred to Pretoria? MR HATTINGH Yes. MR VAN RENSBURG I was not transferred directly from P.E. to Pretoria. MR HATTINGH I know you said Paarl but I specifically refer to the transferral to Pretoria, not necessarily from P.E.? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes then I'm following you, it was from the end of 1987 when I left Port Elizabeth and I arrived in Pretoria April 1989. MR HATTINGH Very well and then General, when did you hear for the first time that Vlakplaas members were involved in this operation? MR VAN RENSBURG What operation? MR HATTINGH This PEBCO Three incident? MR VAN RENSBURG No Sir, I did not ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH When for the first time, it doesn't matter whether it was in your official capacity or whether it was in amnesty applications, when was the first time that you heard that Vlakplaas members were with your colleagues responsible for the killing of the PEBCO Three? MR VAN RENSBURG I think with the application for amnesty. MR HATTINGH But you did not apply for amnesty? MR VAN RENSBURG No I did not but I cannot recall whether it was or while the persons were giving evidence, I cannot specifically recall on which occasion it was. MR HATTINGH You know who Joe Mamasela is? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I do. MR HATTINGH Did you hear whether he was involved with this PEBCO Three? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I think so, I'm not certain. MR HATTINGH Did he give evidence before the Harmse Commission, Mamasela? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And he would have spoken of it, not so? MR VAN RENSBURG I don't know whether he spoke about it. MR HATTINGH Let me ask you this question as follows, what did you know of Vlakplaas while you were station in Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG Sir I don't know in which regard you mean, I did not have an intensive knowledge of Vlakplaas and the circumstances there and who were all there. MR HATTINGH But what was Vlakplaas? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes as far as I knew at that stage Vlakplaas was a place where members who had been arrested or had returned trained ANC persons where they were turned to co-operate with the South African Police. MR HATTINGH The so-called askaris? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes the so-called askaris. MR HATTINGH And then once they were willing to co-operate? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes and then they were used to trace trained terrorists. MR HATTINGH Is that all you knew about Vlakplaas? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I was also aware that there were persons or there was capability to eliminate activists and terrorists. MR HATTINGH And you knew this while you were stationed in Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I did. MR HATTINGH And at that capacity to eliminate persons was available to branches of the Security Branch whosoever wished to make use of those services? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you - and I will limit my questions to the time when you were in the Eastern Cape while you were station there, did you make use of the services, you personally? MR VAN RENSBURG No, not that I can recall. Yes, there was the Kondile matter. MR HATTINGH The Kondile matter. Yes? MR VAN RENSBURG Or let me put it as follows, Dirk Coetzee who was at Vlakplaas, I used him. MR HATTINGH He was then the commander? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And you say you used his services? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you approach him? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I did. MR HATTINGH And your request to him was to be of assistance in the elimination of people? MR VAN RENSBURG Of Kondile yes. MR HATTINGH And back then you knew that Vlakplaas was an operational unit which was available to other units who wanted to act against activists and wanted to kill them? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And in the Kondile incident you made use of those services? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH Is this the only instance that you can recall that you used their services while you were stationed in the Eastern Cape? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I think so. MR HATTINGH Was the Eastern Cape during these times not one of the hot spots in the country? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes it was. MR HATTINGH And you thought that you could solve your own problems and is that the reason why you did not make more use of Vlakplaas' services? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I cannot tell you what my commander's attitude was regarding this but I don't know of any other instances. MR HATTINGH Who told you by the way that Vlakplaas had the capacity to eliminate people and that that capacity was available to Security Branches. Who conveyed that information to you? MR VAN RENSBURG Dirk Coetzee told me the first time. MR HATTINGH When he was still the commander there? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And how did it come about that he told you this? MR VAN RENSBURG It was sometime after he had taken over command at Vlakplaas. I cannot recall whether it was in the Eastern Cape or here in Pretoria, I think on occasion I went to look for him at Vlakplaas and that is when he informed me. MR HATTINGH And he was just a captain back then? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I think so. MR HATTINGH Did you accept his word that there was an official unit of the South African Police which was available to Security Branches of the South African Police which could be used to eliminate activists and terrorists? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I had no reason to doubt him. MR HATTINGH You did not try to determine this higher up? MR VAN RENSBURG No I did not. MR HATTINGH Just only on Coetzee's word you accepted that Vlakplaas was made available for that purpose amongst others? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Very well, let us just take a step forward. You were then transferred to Vlakplaas or to head office, C and E, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH When you took over command of Vlakplaas you told us this was towards the end of 1989 around the 1st November 1989, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And then you also became the commander of Vlakplaas? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, overhead commander. MR HATTINGH Yes, I assume at that stage Vlakplaas was better known to you because you were now at head office and Vlakplaas was just outside Pretoria? MR VAN RENSBURG I would not say that it was better known to me, it depends in which regard you mean. MR HATTINGH Did you before you commenced command of C Section did you ever visit Vlakplaas? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I did. MR HATTINGH On how many occasions? MR VAN RENSBURG I'm not able to tell you Sir. MR HATTINGH Many occasions? Social or official visits? MR VAN RENSBURG Social. MR HATTINGH Only social? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes only social that I can recall. MR HATTINGH So you knew where the farm was and you knew who was the commander, that's Mr de Kock, the operational commander? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR HATTINGH And this division of which you were the overhead commander, did you inspect it there and try and find out what we have here and what are our capacities and what are our manpower limits as any commander would want to know what his sources available to him are? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I informed Mr de Kock. MR HATTINGH While you were there socially did he not take you around, did you not ask somebody please show me this place? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I was shown around a bit. MR HATTINGH Yes and amongst others you would have been taken a storage room or two where there was a massive amount of arms and ammunition stored? MR VAN RENSBURG No, arms and ammunition were stored there but I cannot tell you how much or what the mass was, I did not have any weapons inspection. MR HATTINGH No but I do not refer to a weapons inspection, according to my information there were so much weapons that it would have taken you quite a few days to investigate all of this. Were you not taken into a room and you saw there were land mines, explosives, missile launchers, arms and ammunition, weapons of that nature? MR VAN RENSBURG I did not see that, it wouldn't have been strange to me if I did see it but I did not personally see it. MR HATTINGH Were you aware that they did have such weapons available? MR VAN RENSBURG Mr de Kock told me that they have such weapons or that they could get such weapons and that some of the people were trained as parachutists and some of them were trained for intricate tasks. MR HATTINGH You now call it intricate tasks, these are - you actually refer to tasks where action was taken against activists where they were attacked and killed, is that what Mr de Kock told you? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH General, when you took over in November of 1989 your predecessor, Brigadier Schoon, did you hear from him what Vlakplaas was about because at that stage you only knew and I understand your evidence you said that Vlakplaas was a unit where one could make use of the services of askaris, askaris were available for the identification and arrest of activists and secondly you knew that they were there and that they had the capacity to kill people? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And now you take command of this farm? I would think that if I took over command of a new unit or sub-unit that I would want to be up to speed as to exactly what is going on there and what these persons tasks there are and what my task is as an overhead commander with regard to this farm, is that not so? MR VAN RENSBURG Sir, the management of Vlakplaas itself was Mr de Kock's responsibility. It was impossible for me to regularly visit the place physically and then it served no purpose to have Mr de Kock there at all, he had to report to me what the situation was, what they were busy with, it was impossible for me to monitor them. MR HATTINGH But General, I do not refer to Vlakplaas in the months after you took over command, I refer to the moment when you took over command of a new unit, new to you. Did you not try to surmise exactly what is it that you were taking command of, what is your task and responsibility in this regard? MR VAN RENSBURG Sir yes, I held discussions with Mr de Kock at that stage. Their chief task was the tracing of terrorists. He did indicate to me that they had a programme which they followed, people went out where they were needed and where possible information was, where terrorists were and that they were deployed into groups and some persons who were on leave with rest days and some others went out with groups wherever they were needed and so forth. That was their primary task. MR LAX Sorry, if I could just intervene for a moment, Mr Hattingh? There was a question about whether you spoke to Brigadier Schoon and you didn't actually answer that. Did you ever speak to Schoon about what his duties entailed and what your duties would therefore entail? MR VAN RENSBURG Brigadier Schoon only told me that these person's tasks were to trace terrorists and weapons of terror and so forth. MR LAX If the average person takes over from somebody else, don't you ask that person listen, how often did you go in and inspect there, who do you report to, what are the proper channels? This is normal stuff that a commander would want to know from his predecessor? MR VAN RENSBURG As I have already said Brigadier Schoon did inform me what their tasks were insofar he informed me to the extend that their tasks were the tracing of terrorists and weapons of terror and that is basically what he told me about them. CHAIRPERSON You've told us you were in charge of E Section which had certain specific tasks and you then took over D and C and what other section? MR VAN RENSBURG No, only C. CHAIRPERSON C? How many units were there in C Section? MR VAN RENSBURG Sir, I cannot specifically recall. It was Vlakplaas - I think there were four, I'm not entirely certain. CHAIRPERSON So there were only four units you had to be told about when you took over from Schoon? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR HATTINGH In truth it was only three, C1, 2 and 3 not so? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes it could be three. MR HATTINGH I am just trying to refresh your memory, but can I just return to a question I asked you earlier and which Mr Lax also asked you about, I asked you if you asked Schoon and now you're saying that you did and he told you that Vlakplaas' task was the tracing of terrorists and arms, is that all he told you? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH But at that stage you already knew according to what you heard from Coetzee and what you accepted as correct that that was not the only task and that the unit was established also to be made available to other branches of the security police to kill people, to put it straightforward? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And that is if one takes over command over such a unit that would be quite a radical task that they had had? MR VAN RENSBURG Sir, as under those circumstances in the Security Branch during those years I assumed that Brigadier Schoon thought that I knew what happened there. MR HATTINGH But how could he assume that, you take over command of an entirely new section? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I speak of other things that were done there. MR HATTINGH What other things? MR VAN RENSBURG As you put it, the killing of activists and terrorists and so forth. MR HATTINGH But now how would he have accepted that you knew of it, how could he have accepted this? MR VAN RENSBURG I don't know, I cannot answer that question, I really do not know. MR HATTINGH But General please, now you take over as overhead commander of a unit that can kill people, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And you ask your predecessor what are the tasks of Vlakplaas and he tells you the tracing of terrorists and arms and you just leave it there? MR VAN RENSBURG I accepted and I felt that he assumed that I knew and you know, one does not discuss these things. MR HATTINGH General, did you accept at that stage that the commander, the operational commander of Vlakplaas and in this regard Mr de Kock had the authority to without approval from head office to assist other branches of the Security Branch to eliminate activists? MR VAN RENSBURG No I did not. MR HATTINGH Now who do you think had to give approval for such actions? MR VAN RENSBURG I accepted that depending on where the request came from, the request for assistance, that it would come to me and that I would have to go higher up. MR HATTINGH Why do you just accept these things, you do not even ask your predecessor, what is the secrecy between yourself and your immediate predecessor? MR VAN RENSBURG I would not say that there was something secretive, I felt that if he wanted to tell me then he would tell me if he did not want to ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH Then it had to be the other way, you had to ask him? MR VAN RENSBURG But I did not. MR HATTINGH But why not? MR VAN RENSBURG I assumed that it was part of the task and he assumed that I am aware of it. MR HATTINGH Every unit in the police has a written task description, is that not so? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you have a look at what Vlakplaas' C1 was? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH What was the written description? MR VAN RENSBURG As I have said the tracing of terrorists and weapons of terror, the gathering of information with regard to terrorists and terror. MR HATTINGH Nothing about the killing of activists? MR VAN RENSBURG No not in writing. MR HATTINGH And let us call it what it was, nothing about murder? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH And still you accepted what Coetzee had told you, that they had committed murders on request if I may put it as such and it's not written in the task description. Did this not cause you to ask any questions? MR VAN RENSBURG No it did not because where I had been previously these things happened, I accepted that it is so. MR HATTINGH Let us take a hypothetical example, General, let us suppose that De Kock arrived after you took over command of C1 and said listen here, we have to kill this person because he holds this danger for us and you say, very well, continue, kill him and this becomes general knowledge and to you questions are put from ministerial or commissioner level and the question is put to you where did you get the authorisation to authorise such a murder. What would you have said to that? MR VAN RENSBURG I would not have acted in that manner. MR HATTINGH But did you not? MR VAN RENSBURG Where? MR HATTINGH In the Motherwell incident? MR VAN RENSBURG I received an instruction from a senior. MR HATTINGH A senior who was attached to another unit of the police? MR VAN RENSBURG No he was not. MR HATTINGH Who was your senior? MR VAN RENSBURG It was Brigadier Gilbert. MR HATTINGH And where was he stationed? MR VAN RENSBURG In Port Elizabeth. MR HATTINGH And you were stationed where? MR VAN RENSBURG At head office. MR HATTINGH And how you accept that at head office you were subject to instructions of senior officers from other units? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH So why was this good enough for you? MR VAN RENSBURG Because he told me it had already been cleared at a higher level. MR HATTINGH Did he tell you where he cleared this? MR VAN RENSBURG No he did not. MR HATTINGH You just accepted it? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I did. MR HATTINGH Let us just conclude this matter, in other words you do not say excuse me, what about the killing of activists, you just assumed that it happens and he accepts that you know it happens and you will just act accordingly? MR VAN RENSBURG That is how I saw it. MR HATTINGH How would these operations be paid for if it incurred a great cost? MR VAN RENSBURG Money was available for operations. MR HATTINGH But somebody had to account for the application of that money? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And then how would you account for the application of the money in incidents where you became involved in murders? MR VAN RENSBURG Approval had to be obtained at a higher level. The Goniwe matter or the Motherwell matter where you were involved in, there were costs attached to this, Vlakplaas members had to go down to P.E., bombs had to be manufactured and everything that accompanied that, no so? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And how were those costs covered? MR VAN RENSBURG They had vehicles to their ability and they had petrol and explosives as far as I know. No one asked me where the money was, I just assumed that they can handle it in their running costs, the transport and so forth. MR HATTINGH Oh please, you must excuse me if I put this to you but the impression that you created is that you did not know what happened in this unit under your command? MR VAN RENSBURG Well at that stage I had begun there on the 1st November. The Motherwell incident took place somewhere in December I think, as we stated and I must say that I was not completely up to speed. MR HATTINGH And you also didn't attempt to bring yourself up to speed? MR VAN RENSBURG Not with regard to such operations at that point in time. MR HATTINGH Up to that point were you ever aware of Security Force action beyond the borders of the Republic and let us say more specifically there in Swaziland where you had been stationed during a certain period, any such actions during which you were not involved? MR VAN RENSBURG I cannot recall any incidents that I was not involved in. Yes, as I have stated what we have already mentioned here, there was the incident at the post office I think, I don't know who is responsible for it, these things happened. MR HATTINGH Very well, you assumed command of C1 and in your mind you were satisfied that this UnitC1 was also at the disposal of Security Branches to deal with or kill activists who posed a danger for the public and the police? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes with police, with permission. MR HATTINGH Permission of whom? MR VAN RENSBURG Well if the permission was requested by me I would have gone to the General. MR HATTINGH Did you ever apply on any higher level for permission to kill persons? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH Not in any one of the cases that you were involved? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH Very well, some of them you were involved in your capacity as a member of the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And was it sufficient to you that your commander there gave the order? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes it was. MR HATTINGH You didn't think that it had to go any higher to head office? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH Why would you as the commander of Unit C1 not have been able to grant sufficient permission if you did not regard the permission of your commander as sufficient? MR VAN RENSBURG Well that is my perspective. Nobody here at head office gave me such specific authorisation therefore if I have received such a request I would have consulted a higher level, I would have had to go to the general. MR HATTINGH While in P.E. you were satisfied when your commander gave you such an order and you willingly carried it out? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Why the distinction, why couldn't you do that here? Why when you were the commander of C1 did you regard it as necessary to go to the General? MR VAN RENSBURG Sir, in the Eastern Cape for example it was my impression that the commander of the Security Branch there had to solve his own problems as far as possible. He had to stabilise the region and maintain it as such, he was responsible for the region and due to this he could make decisions regarding such matters but I was at head office, I didn't have any region as such that I was in command of. I was in command of units here and I simply felt that if such requests came to me then it would be necessary for me to consult my immediate head at head office. MR HATTINGH When did Messrs Coetzee and Nofomela make their revelations? MR VAN RENSBURG I'm speaking under correction but I think that it was during October 1989 somewhere around about that time. MR HATTINGH That would mean it was in the month before you assumed your position as the overall commander of Vlakplaas? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH Did these revelations have anything to do with the fact that you were being appointed as the overall commander of this problem child? MR VAN RENSBURG No, definitely not as far as I know. I was not informed of this, in fact my memory would indicate that before these revelations were made I was called in by the General and I was asked whether or not I felt fit to handle both groups because he did not have anyone else at that time and at a later stage he may lessen my obligations. Yet at that stage he did not have the right sort of man who could take over that group from Brigadier Schoon? MR HATTINGH And who was second in command overall of C1 under you? MR VAN RENSBURG I don't know who was second. If you refer to C I don't know who the senior was. There was a Major Naude, I don't know whether he was the most senior officer. MR HATTINGH Herman du Plessis, where was he? MR VAN RENSBURG He was at the Security Head Office but he was with Group E. MR HATTINGH Group E? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And you were the commander of E as well? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH So he served under you? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And when was he transferred through to head office? MR VAN RENSBURG I think it was on the 1st January 1990. MR HATTINGH 1990? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I think it was 1990. MR HATTINGH So the both of you were transferred within a short period of time after each other from P.E.? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR HATTINGH And when you assumed the command of Vlakplaas, the revelations of Coetzee and Nofomela were widely known, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR HATTINGH And did you make any enquiries in this regard because you were assuming control of a unit whose members were accused of very serious acts, did you make any enquiries, did you conduct any investigations? MR VAN RENSBURG What do you mean by enquiries? MR HATTINGH Well allegations were made that Vlakplaas was involved in very serious murders of which you didn't have any knowledge and you were now assuming command of this unit, didn't you make any enquiries from the standing members in order to find out whether or not they were involved in these allegations which had been lodged by Coetzee? MR VAN RENSBURG Names had been mentioned by Coetzee and Nofomela, they had mentioned the names of members. MR HATTINGH And some of those members were still involved with Vlakplaas, they were still attached to that unit? MR VAN RENSBURG I think so, there were a few of them. MR HATTINGH Didn't you go to those members and ask them what do you have to say about these allegations made by Coetzee? MR VAN RENSBURG No I didn't. MR HATTINGH Why not. MR VAN RENSBURG I didn't deem it necessary to do so at that stage because there was virtually an immediate commission which was established, advocates had been appointed and persons who came to me whose names had been mentioned, I told them there were advocates and that they had to consult these advocates. MR HATTINGH Isn't the reason for your omission to make any enquiries contained in the fact that you knew that these persons were indeed involved in these matters but that you had to assist with the cover up? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I didn't know of everybody who was involved in such deeds. MR HATTINGH But you accepted that they were involved because you knew that that was the reason for the existence of Vlakplaas? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes for some of them then I would accept. MR HATTINGH Very well and what was your involvement if any in the Harmse Commission. MR VAN RENSBURG I did not have any specific involvement with the Commission except that the general of the commander had to be kept up to date during the sessions of the commission regarding what was taking place there. MR HATTINGH I beg your pardon for interrupting you, you said that you had to keep the general or the commander up to date, what do you mean by that? MR VAN RENSBURG General Smit. MR HATTINGH General Basie Smit? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH So you had to keep him up to speed with regard to what? MR VAN RENSBURG With regard to the proceedings at the commission, basically the day to day evidence and witnesses and what exactly was said more or less. MR HATTINGH Was it therefore necessary for you to attend the sessions of the commission? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR HATTINGH Then how did you succeed in keeping him up to date if you weren't there to hear what was being said? MR VAN RENSBURG Well I received feedback from some of the advocates regarding the days proceedings. The then Brigadier Engelbrecht attended most of the sessions, he could also give me feedback. MR HATTINGH To you? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes mostly to me. Sometimes he himself would go to the General and brief him. MR HATTINGH What about Herman du Plessis? MR VAN RENSBURG I think that Herman was also there but not very regularly, he wasn't there regularly there as far as I can recall. MR HATTINGH Well what was he doing there, what role did he have to fulfil with the Harmse Commission? MR VAN RENSBURG Well I suppose one could say that he had to see to the interests of the Security Branch members or at least monitor what was going on and give feed back. But as I've stated he did not attend these sessions very regularly. MR LAX Sorry, before you proceed Mr Hattingh? There was -again you asked a double question and the second part wasn't answered and that was the question of to use the Afrikaans word "die toesmeering" of the activities of Vlakplaas. You asked him, you knew about these acts, what did you do about it, did you ask any questions and how were you involved in the "toesmeer"? That aspect wasn't answered, if you wouldn't mind just covering that please? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I would say that with regard to the cover up it depends what exactly is meant by that but I was not involved in any cover up with the exception of my own allegations which were made against me. For that I made statements and denied them. MR LAX General, if I could ask you this, please let us not play around with words. You were the commander of a unit. You took over that unit. Prior to taking over that unit you had personal knowledge of some of these activities. Some you were involved in, some you'd heard about, correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR LAX Now these allegations are made in public, there's a commission of enquiry instituted to deal with it, you weren't going to go as commander of that unit and tell the truth? Not just your own personal activities but you knew exactly what happened? Not every infinite detail of every single instance but in general terms you knew enough that when you took over from Brigadier Schoon you didn't even have to ask him what to do? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR LAX So how can you say you only were involved in the cover up of those things you were personally involved in? MR VAN RENSBURG Well you are referring to the allegations which were made against me, I could not tell other members listen, Coetzee and Nofomela have made allegations about you, please keep quiet about it or please deny it. That is not what I told people to do. I told people there are allegations which had been made against you, they have been printed in the newspaper, you have read them yourselves, what do you have to say about this? Some of them said that they had denied these allegations and I said well, there are advocates which have been appointed and you could make use of these services. MR LAX But you knew they were lying because of to do the sorts of things that Coetzee and Nofomela were saying were done? So therefore the question was in a general sense you were involved in the cover up of those activities? MR VAN RENSBURG If you put it that way then that is correct. MR LAX Thank you. CHAIRPERSON It doesn't look as if you're going to finish in the next few minutes, Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Certainly not, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I have warned you gentlemen already that I am afraid that I have personal problems with my dentist tomorrow morning. I think the earliest I could be here is quarter past ten, even maybe that would be a little optimistic. I hope I will be here by then so we can start and you gentlemen get off for the weekend. Perhaps that's a bit too early for some of you? Quarter past ten gentlemen, I hope to be here but if I'm not please be patient. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS