amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-26 PRETORIA 8 JAKOBUS KOK - RECALL https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53914&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991126pt.htm MR SIBANYONI Mr Kok, you are still under your previous oath, do you understand? JAKOBUS KOK (s.u.o.) MR SIBANYONI Thank you, please be seated. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Mr Kok, you have already given evidence in this incident. You were under the impression that tape player was in a - you have already given evidence in this matter, is that correct? MR J KOK Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS And your evidence was initially that as far as you can recall the tape recorder was in a so-called blister pack but a see-through, is that correct? MR J KOK That is as far as I can recall, yes. MR BOOYENS But however that may be, after you worked on the package, did you place it back into the original packaging? MR J KOK Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS And packaged it in such a manner so that it could be closed and it would still look brand new, is that correct? MR J KOK That's correct. MR BOOYENS You have listened to the evidence of your brother and these are the tape players that were bought. Could it be that you are mistaken about the outside packaging of the package? MR J KOK Specifically in terms of this or ...? MR BOOYENS Yes, that it could have looked like this, yes. MR J KOK No, I cannot differ with that. Although I cannot recall this one specifically, it doesn't ring any bell, but I accept that if that was the original packaging then I would have put it in there. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BOOYENS You would have put it in there in any case? MR J KOK Yes, definitely, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Very well. Now we have already heard what the original packaging looks like and the tape player will be inside the blister packaging with the earphones on the other side and then slid into the box, is that correct? MR J KOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And did you wrap the package in its original packaging in brown paper? MR J KOK Yes. MR BOOYENS I would like you to - it is unfortunately a bit difficult because the Committee does not have it at their disposal, but if you look - Chairperson, I'm now referring to the photos which are marked Exhibit 16E and firstly to photo number 5. You see on photo number 5, there next to what looks like a desk, there's a brown cardboard box. Do you see that? MR J KOK I see that, yes. MR BOOYENS It's possibly the lid of such a cardboard box. Do you know that? MR J KOK No, I don't. MR BOOYENS And if we look at photo number 8 in the same exhibit, there you see firstly the Unisef box, which is now before the Committee, is that correct? MR J KOK Yes, I do see that. MR BOOYENS And then directly next to that, it looks like a brown cardboard box. MR J KOK I see that. MR BOOYENS In this cardboard box - I beg your pardon, let me just continue. When looking at it it would appear that the Unisef container would fit into the cardboard box. MR J KOK I agree, yes. MR BOOYENS And on this photo that we see here, inside the brown cardboard box there is something white inside the brown cardboard box, which has such ridges on it. Do you see that? MR J KOK I see that, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And there's a tape lying on there. MR J KOK That's correct, yes. MR BOOYENS Does this look like the same as the polystyrene packaging which is here before the Committee? MR J KOK Yes, it does. MR BOOYENS The one that I have in my hand now, the so-called blister pack. So it would appear as if someone - we know that at that stage when the photo was taken the earphones had already exploded, but it would appear that the person had removed the cassette player out of the Unisef box, out of the polystyrene packaging and put the polystyrene wrapping into the brown box ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR J KOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS ... and that is what we see on the photo. MR J KOK I agree with that, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS With regard to this cardboard box you say you don't know of it. MR J KOK No, this is not my work. MR BOOYENS But you are aware when the investigation was ongoing, you received instructions to destroy all your staplers, is that correct? MR J KOK Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS And later it appeared that this cardboard box is, let us call it a home-made box, which was made by folding cardboard and stapling it together and applying cellotape. MR J KOK I didn't have information about this. It was unclear to me as to why the staples had to be removed, but I assume that's the reason. MR BOOYENS And just one further aspect. The Neil Diamond cassette still has cellotape attached to it, do you see that? MR J KOK Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And it would appear that this tape was taped to something else. MR J KOK I agree with that. MR BOOYENS When you placed the tape in the package, did you attach it to the package or did you not attach it, or can't you remember? MR J KOK I cannot recall that I attached it to the box, but I can recall the specific shape of the package and I know that the cassettes were on top of the container and it was wrapped like that with brown paper. So the uneven shape is still very clear to me. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BOOYENS Very well. When you wrapped, that would be at the Technical Division, who was present? MR J KOK As far as I can recall I can definitely remember Steve Bosch, because he helped carry the item and as far as I can also recall, Riaan Bellingan was present. MR BOOYENS So Mr Bosch would have seen when you covered the parcel and he would also have seen that you placed the BZN and Neil Diamond tapes in the parcel? MR J KOK Yes, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And both these tapes, these are commercial tapes, were they packaged in the normal plastic packaging which would indicate whose music it was? MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, perhaps I should at this stage hand up to the Committee, Exhibit 16E together with the box. I think that is probably what the Committee will need, and the Neil Diamond tape. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR HATTINGH No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Looking at this photograph, photograph 8, Mr Kok, it looks to me as if there are six or seven strips of some white substance in there, wider than the strips on the cover that we have been given. What do you say about that? MR J KOK Chairperson, I'm not certain what you are referring to at the moment. CHAIRPERSON The photograph number 8 that shows the cardboard box with some white substance in it, I am suggesting to you that that white substance does not, in my view, look to be like the cover found inside the box when it was bought, it looks to be like stiff strips of something. MR J KOK Chairperson, I cannot comment on that, at face value it appears to be the same thing, but I did not count the ridges or anything like that specifically. CHAIRPERSON It seems there were at least six. And the other tape which is photographed there, could we have that tape please? MR BOOYENS The other tape? CHAIRPERSON Yes. Or will you look at it first. MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, that photograph is not in this, as far as I know it's not in this one. CHAIRPERSON No, the tape itself. MR BOOYENS The cassette? CHAIRPERSON The cassette tape. MR LAX No, not the player, the individual cassette, the Sony one. CHAIRPERSON As I understand it, that is not one that you packed into your package. MR J KOK That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And that is the one that appears to be on the top of this white substance in the box when it was photographed. MR J KOK Yes, that appears to be so. CHAIRPERSON It's not ... And I think it's clear from one of the photographs, that the Neil Diamond - in fact photograph 9, that the Neil Diamond tape was in the cassette player. MR J KOK I saw the photo, Chairperson. MR LAX Thank you, Chair. Mr Kok, my recollection of your evidence, and you were very clear on this point, was that the package that you made up had no cardboard in it whatsoever. MR J KOK That is correct, Chairperson, as I recall the packaging, I placed it back into what I had found it in. So if I made a mistake with regard to the cardboard container in which the original cassette player was packaged, that is possible, but I definitely replaced it into what I had received it in. MR LAX You see the reason why I'm suggesting to you that you were so clear was because you indicated the unevenness of the packaging. MR J KOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX If it had gone into a cardboard box, it would have been flat, there would have been no difficulty in how you'd positioned the tapes on top of it. MR J KOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX And I distinctly remembered you talking about the tapes forming a flat surface, forming a flat surface on top of an uneven surface. Or words to that effect. MR J KOK Yes, not entirely to that effect though. The cassettes themselves were placed above the container, or the container in which the cassette player with the earphones was. I wrapped that in brown paper and the brown paper formed an uneven surface. So whether it was the packaging below which was the problem, I don't know, perhaps I did not set it out perfectly but I cannot recall that it was in a well-shaped square container, it was uneven. MR LAX Well that is my recollection of your evidence, I haven't looked at the record to find the exact words you used. MR J KOK That is correct. MR LAX The other thing was that you spoke not of cellotape at any stage. MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR LAX You spoke of the gummed paper tape. MR J KOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Now these photographs are not very clear, but if one looks at the package it looks as if the tape that was used to bind it together with whatever staples may have been used, isn't that gummed sort of tape, but more or a plastic kind of tape? I wonder if you could just look again at the photographs and see whether it is, 'cause you will have had experience of that gummed tape. CHAIRPERSON Can I have the other volume please, the photographs. Sorry, while you're doing that, I think you have looked at the box, the Unisef box and it is quite clear that on the sides of, at least three sides of the box there are pieces of cellotape. It appears clear that something was stuck onto the top of this box, do you agree? MR J KOK That is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Through you, Mr Chairman, is Mr Lax referring to photograph number 6 in 16E, as pointed out to my attorney? MR LAX Correct, Chair. Just your comment on that, Mr Kok. MR J KOK Chairperson, it is difficult to surmise from the photo, but it would appear that it was buff tape or packaging tape. It appears to be similar to a broad version of cellotape. It's quite difficult to say, it could be either one of the two, I don't know. MR LAX On my looking at it again, it's not as clear as I originally thought it was. But in any event, you didn't have anything to do with that? MR J KOK I had nothing to do with this parcel. CHAIRPERSON But what is quite clear I think, I think we must - I don't know if anybody disputes that, that the parcel as found at the scene of the death and as shown in the photographs, was not the parcel as wrapped by you. MR J KOK Not as I packaged it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any other questions? MR HATTINGH No thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Chairperson, just one or two. Mr Kok, you already had the cassettes in your possession when Bosch wrapped the parcel that morning. MR J KOK If he says so I would go along with it, but I cannot recall the particular state at which I received the cassettes, but they were there when we wrapped the parcel. I don't know whether it was brought there earlier or on the day that we wrapped the parcel. MR LAMEY His recollection is that you already had the tapes, the BZN and Neil Diamond tapes. He says that he arrived there and you were already busy wrapping the package and he helped with the final aspects of it. MR J KOK Yes, that could be so. MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY MR LAX Just one tiny thing. In one of these photographs there's a picture of some string with some sealant on, red sealack, that sort of stuff that you burn and use to seal string. It might be in this album that's up here. MR J KOK I may have seen it yesterday, I cannot recall clearly, I didn't use any such substances. MR LAX Thanks. So you didn't use string or sealing material? MR J KOK Not at all. MR LAX Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR RADITAPOLE Mr Chairman, just on this point. I'm not sure I understood what was put. I'm happy to accept that the description of the packaging by Mr Kok is not the same as what was found at the scene, but at this stage I'm not sure that we are ready to concede that the packet that he packed is not the one that was found on the scene. Just to make that point. CHAIRPERSON Well, we have heard other evidence about the brown paper wrapping that was found at the scene, the writing on it and matters of that nature. Which do not accord with the evidence that he gave earlier, which was not challenged. MR LAX I think the most important issue that's not in dispute, is that somebody or some person or persons whose names have not emerged at this hearing, repacked that parcel, either partially or totally at some point and introduced inter alia the tape "Hit Squad - Evidence" and so on. MR RADITAPOLE No, I appreciate the point, Mr Chairman, and I'm not pushing it, I'm just making the point simply that we not necessarily conceding that Mr Kok was not involved in the final packaging. That's the only point. CHAIRPERSON I think somewhere I saw that this tape that was found there, the alleged "Hit Squad", was in fact a blank tape. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, may I just - I think I've already mentioned this, but apropos of Mr Lax's question about the string and the sealing, a Mrs Smith was called to give evidence at the inquest and her evidence appears on volume 12 of the record of those proceedings, and on page 434 of the record the following was put to her by the prosecutor who led the evidence "A photo was also shown to you, can you say whether you applied this wax yourself or whether it was applied by the person who sent the parcel?" To which she replied - "I cannot say with certainty." And then she was asked - "Am I correct when I say that you worked with many parcels on a daily basis?" "Yes, that is correct." "When you were still working at the post office." "Yes." And in the cross-examination by Mr Rautenbach, the following was put to her - "Is it correct Mrs Smith, that when she showed you the photograph, she showed you lines which were attached to each other with red wax, some form of a seal which was applied, is that correct?" "Yes, that is correct." "And then furthermore, is it also correct that she asked you, and that you told her that you recognised that seal as the seal which you applied? It is a seal that you applied, is that correct?" "No, I said it may be so." And then she went on along those lines, she ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well that's got nothing to do whatsoever with what Kok prepared, has it? This is at the time the parcel was posted. MR HATTINGH Yes, yes, that's all I'm trying to put on record, that the string and the wax might have been applied in the post office and not by the people who prepared the package. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) WITNESS EXCUSED MR BOOYENS Thank you, Chair. MR LAMEY Chairperson, I can also Mr Bosch. I don't know whether I should move over to that microphone or just ... CHAIRPERSON I think move to there, they will start unplugging everything, I think rather move. MR LAMEY As it pleases you, Chairperson.