amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-26 PRETORIA 8 WILLHELM RIAAN BELLINGAN - RECALL https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53916&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991126pt.htm MR LAX Mr Bellingan, do you confirm that you are still under your previous oath? WILLHELM RIAAN BELLINGAN (s.u.o.) MR LAX Thank you, you may be seated. MR LAX EXPLAINS WORKING OF MICROPHONES CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VICTOR Mr Bellingan, I have had the opportunity to listen to your evidence, your evidence-in-chief, on tape and in the beginning of your evidence you mention an incident where Mr de Kock had discussed the possible elimination of Mr Coetzee with you, is that correct? MR BELLINGAN Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR VICTOR And then later in your evidence you mention of one morning when you were at head office and that you were asked by Mr de Kock to accompany him to the office of Gen van Rensburg. MR BELLINGAN That's correct, Chairperson. MR VICTOR Are those two different incidents? MR BELLINGAN I would not say it is two incidents which one could dichotomise, at some stage we followed Mr Coetzee and we were listening in on his telephone calls, but that morning Mr de Kock told me that we would just go to Gen van Rensburg's office. I cannot definitely say that those are two, the same incidents or two different incidents, Chairperson. MR VICTOR Can you tell me specifically, was the discussion of Mr Coetzee's possible elimination, did this take place before you went to the office of Gen van Rensburg that morning? MR BELLINGAN Yes, I believe it would have been discussed before the time, Chairperson. MR VICTOR That morning with your visit to the office, why was it necessary for you to accompany Mr de Kock to the office if on your own version you said you did not even go into the office, it would not be fitting? MR BELLINGAN Chairperson, many times Mr de Kock would have said to "come along" and then we would also have sat there with the General and drank coffee, regardless of whether you were a Warrant Officer or a Sergeant. I mean it wasn't a stereotype of procedure that you may not enter there by the General, or by the Brigadier at least, that time. So he said "come along" and I went with him to his office. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR VICTOR You waited outside in the hall? MR BELLINGAN Yes, I came in and I know Gen Nick for many years, I said good-day to him, we have must respect for him, he is a quite person, and I walked back and he and Col de Kock had a discussion inside the office. MR VICTOR You have already testified that you do not know what the subject of the conversation was. MR BELLINGAN No, I did not hear. MR VICTOR And from your evidence it also appears that you cannot recall how long Mr de Kock was in the office with Gen van Rensburg. MR BELLINGAN That's correct, Chairperson. MR VICTOR You even make mention of "it could have been a few seconds", I think that is what you say. MR BELLINGAN That is also possible, Chairperson. MR VICTOR And then you say Col du Plessis was also there. MR BELLINGAN No, I did not mention Col du Plessis, Chairperson. MR VICTOR Was anybody else in the office with Gen van Rensburg? MR BELLINGAN Not that I can recall. If there was somebody, I cannot recall who this person is. MR VICTOR Then I would just like to put it to you that Gen van Rensburg will deny that this incident had taken place in his office as you described it. MR BELLINGAN Chairperson, as I have said, I have much respect for Gen van Rensburg, I will not argue. That is my recollection of that morning and someone was killed here, so that is my recollection, I am here to tell the Committee what I can recall and I do not want to argue with the General about that. MR VICTOR Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VICTOR MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR BOOYENS No thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You are also excused from further attendance unless given notice that we want to see you again. MR BELLINGAN Thank you, Sir. WITNESS EXCUSED MR BOOYENS I'm indebted to my learned friend, Mr Hattingh, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Right, we revert to the cross-examination of Gen van Rensburg.