amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-30 PRETORIA 10 CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS AMBUSH AT NERSTON/AMSTERDAM ROAD https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53919&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991130pt.htm CHAIRPERSON We will now go on with today's hearing. The first of them is one which I feel I should apologise to you all about, and that is that my colleague Mr Lax was phoned from our Cape Town office late last night and told that the hearing on Monday won't be going on on Monday it will be going on on Thursday, and not in Nelspruit but in Johannesburg, subject to your approvals. Can you rearrange your lives? Yesterday I asked you all to arrange, those of you appearing to be available, not sit on Monday now our offices have finally discovered that the arrangement is somewhat different. Will you gentlemen be able, those of you who are engaged in the Monday matter, can you make arrangements. I am very much obliged to all of you for that. And the second is a matter which Mr Rossouw wishes to raise with us. MR ROSSOUW Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I represent Mr Douw Willemse and last night after the proceedings yesterday I was contacted by the family of my client who informed me that he has experienced some problems and that the psychologist who treated him in the past has also been contracted. He has consulted with Mr Willemse and as a result thereof the psychologist has expressed the opinion that Mr Willemse is not at this point in time in a position to testify or to be subjected to cross-examination in these proceedings. Mr Chairman I have handed to everybody a letter that was faxed to me last night by the psychologist, Dr van der Merwe, in which that opinion is expressed. Mr Chairman I also place on record that in previous hearings it has been recorded and letters by Dr van der Merwe have also been handed in to other panels of the Committee and Mr Chairman my application is at this stage that the application of Mr Willemse be adjourned, partly-heard, and that it be completed Mr Chairman either in the sense of a finding on the facts after these proceedings, or if there is some aspect that the Committee needs to clear with Mr Willemse then after he has received treatment and he is in a position to testify Mr Chairman, we can make the necessary arrangements for that to take place. CHAIRPERSON Mr Rossouw have you been completely frank with the members? I understand that this happened not after the proceedings yesterday, but after a subsequent (microphone not on) MR ROSSOUW Yes Mr Chairman that was my subsequent consultation with Mr Willemse again. So I do have to take responsibility for that Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON It seems to me it's a perfectly reasonable request, Gentlemen. We have heard the evidence already of - the different versions, nothing further there, and it seems -I don't want to pre-judge the matter in any way but from what we have had before us he seems to have been one of the foot-soldiers and his absence here will not materially affect the application in respect of any of the other applicants. If there's any point they wish to raise specifically they could mention it now. MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman may I perhaps just also place on record that there is a precedent for this in what happened to Brigadier Cronje when he had his heart attack at the beginning of the year it was exactly the same situation. MS LOCKHAT Chairperson can we mark this letter, should we mark it Exhibit D, the letter from Dr van der Merwe. Exhibit D. MR ROSSOUW Thank you Mr Chairman. If there's no opposition to that application for the adjournment of Mr Willemse's application, Mr Chairman I have also instructions from my client to place certain things on record at this point in time, while he is still present here and Mr Chairman my instructions are that after Mr Willemse had the opportunity of listening to the testimony by Mr de Kock yesterday, and the cross-examination that his recollection, having listened to the testimony, is that there was indeed a final instruction that all the persons infiltrating the country had to be eliminated. Secondly, Mr Chairman, as far as the aspect of the arrest is concerned my instructions are that he is experiencing some difficulty and uncertainty in that regard and my instructions are that he has got a recollection of such a plan and it might have taken place during the discussion prior to the final decision that the cadres all had to be eliminated. CHAIRPERSON Right. MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman may I then ask that Mr Willemse be excused from these proceedings. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. (microphone not switched on) I trust you will advise him to listen carefully to what his medical advisor tells him to do. MR ROSSOUW Thank you Mr Chairman. MR WILLEMSE EXCUSED MS LOCKHAT Chairperson the next amnesty is Mr Christo Deetlefs. CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs you are the applicant in this particular incident which refers to the Nerston incident? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO You have applied for amnesty for the death of these persons who are mentioned in the application? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And your application appears on page 117 up to page 119, that is the formal part, and then with regards to the incident itself this goes from page 120 to page 123. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs at the time of the event as the date appears to be, it was the 14th of August 1989, and at this stage you were stationed at Ermelo and you were the branch commander and you occupied the rank of captain? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, your fellow applicant, was stationed at Piet Retief and occupied the rank, at that stage, of warrant officer and he was also the branch commander of that branch? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And he was your subordinate? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And did you work with him? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs in this particular case what was the order, what was supposed to take place at the scene of this Nerston incident? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson it was that the infiltrators, in this case the persons occupying the bakkie, would be eliminated. MR PRINSLOO Was there any talk of arrest? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson it may be so because this took place a long time ago but under normal circumstances one would consider arrest against the death of such persons, so it is possible that at some stage there may be talk of arrest but ultimately we decided that these persons would be eliminated. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs as the evidence appears use was made of an informer? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Now in your application, on page 120, the following appears in paragraph 2, and this is approximately the fourth line from the bottom. "It was agreed with the informer that he would stop at a determined place along the Amsterdam/Nerston road with these persons upon which an arrest would follow". Did you agree on this with the informer or what was the case? MR DEETLEFS No this was according to what Mr Pienaar had told me regarding what he had agreed with the informer what the informer would have said after the bakkie came to a standstill the arrest would have been conducted. So that refers to what the informer had said. MR PRINSLOO And in your application itself you do not state directly that a shooting would ensue but that at the scene itself shots were fired and after that the persons were shot. Could you state this expressly to the Committee. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson the application was submitted at a very late stage. Everything had to be completed hastily in order to reach the cut-off date. Everything was compiled rather cryptically so there is a lot of semantics, nonetheless the order was for the persons to be killed. MR PRINSLOO On page 122 of your application Mr Deetlefs in the first paragraph the third line from the top, Chairperson, it says "The driver jumped out immediately and ran around the back of the bakkie while the one passenger jumped out of the left side wielding a pistol". You heard that Mr de Kock testified there was no such person who jumped out wielding a pistol. What is your recollection? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson this took place a long time ago and for the purposes of the post mortem inquest at that stage we said that a person had jumped out wielding this hand-gun. But I could not say later with certainty whether it was so or not. It was my recollection but I would concede if some of the other applicants say that the person did not disembark but this is indeed possibly so. My recollection is that he attempted to disembark and that he held a hand-gun. MR PRINSLOO Was it true that a pistol was found on the left side? MR DEETLEFS On the floor of the bakkie near the person who was seated on the extreme left a weapon was found, but this was on the floor of the bakkie between his legs. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman I have handed to the evidence leader an album which contains one photo. It's referred to on the document as "Bewysstuk AO" if I recall correctly. I only have a photocopy in my hand of the photo itself. I also have in my possession the judgment of his Lordship Mr Justice Daniels, and that is in the matter of S v Maseko and 2 others which included Ebrahim, Ismail Ebrahim, and also one Dladla, and this particular case of Dladla and Maseko and Ebrahim they were charged also with the infiltration and also of the deceased in this matter. It's referred to in the judgment. The judgment is available. It's a very lengthy judgment Mr Chairman, but I have it available. I only looked at this last night and I haven't had the chance to photocopy it. CHAIRPERSON You can tell us what page to look at. MR PRINSLOO I will do that Mr Chairman, if necessary. May I then refer to the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You are not handing that in as an exhibit, but the photograph will be Exhibit E. MR PRINSLOO As you please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You didn't manage to get one of the others - the driver's side? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman the purpose of that photo when it was handed in to court, if my memory serves me correctly, I perused the judgment very quickly, one could probably locate the court record of the Ebrahim saga. The reason for that was it was alleged that Dladla made use of this particular bakkie, and for that reason it was handed in. It is also referred to in the judgment of his Lordship Mr Justice Daniels at page 70 of the judgment where it is stated there "The accused also admitted that the entries contained in Exhibit AQ 1-7 correctly reflected and recorded his movements across the Swaziland border, and analysis of the information thus recorded reveals that...." and I am omitting the others and get to point 1.5.3 - "He entered the Republic again on the 8th of June 1986 in a beige Datsun, SD 314, and returned to Swaziland on the 10th of June 1986". And the reason for that photograph was handed in to show which bakkie was used Mr Chairman. So it wasn't to do with the actual shooting or an inquest or anything of the kind. That pertains to a charge against the accused at that stage. CHAIRPERSON And we still don't know where the bakkie is? MR PRINSLOO No Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PRINSLOO That's the best we could do in the circumstances. CHAIRPERSON We are obliged to you for having managed to do that. MR PRINSLOO As I say Mr Chairman, I haven't checked the court record itself, maybe we could find something else in there because it was a long time ago when this trial was conducted. MS LOCKHAT I will check that. CHAIRPERSON I can assure you that it will be done. Thank you Lynn. MR PRINSLOO May I proceed Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman may I have sight of the original document as I would like to show that to the witness, the applicant, please Mr Chairman. As you please Mr Chairman. Mr Deetlefs Exhibit E before you is the original photo, do you see the bakkie on the photo? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Do you recognise that bakkie or not? MR DEETLEFS Yes I recognise it. MR PRINSLOO What do you have to say about it? MR DEETLEFS It is the same bakkie that we fired at during the ambush. MR PRINSLOO If one looks at the photograph it would appear that there are marks on the left side of the vehicle. MR DEETLEFS Those are bullet marks. MR PRINSLOO And then if one also looks at the rear of the vehicle, on the panel itself, near the rear lights, what do you see there? MR DEETLEFS Those are also bullet holes. MR PRINSLOO And it appears as if the back window of the canopy has been shot to pieces. MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Can you see whether or not the front window has been shot out? MR DEETLEFS I cannot really make out very clearly with the photograph. I can see that the side window on the door has been shot up. I cannot see properly. It would appear as if the front window has been shot out, but I cannot say for certain. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs, on this particular evening when this ambush was set up which position did you occupy, can you recall? MR DEETLEFS I was next to the road, against the shoulder of the road on the left side, as the vehicle would approach us from the right, I lay on the left. If one looks at the vehicle I would say that I was more-or-less just behind the left front door, just opposite that pillar the vehicle stopped from me. MR PRINSLOO You have heard Mr de Kock's evidence and his application, and you have also seen a plan that was submitted by him, Exhibit B, in which it was alleged that persons were positioned on both sides of the road. What is your recollection? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson, it is possible that during the planning we discussed the possibility of placing others on the other side of the road. We always discussed all possibilities but when we went to occupy our positions on that night we all lay in one straight line along one side of the road. MR PRINSLOO Now if one would drive from Nerston, the border post itself, there is a road which turns out to the left in the direction of Amsterdam? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Now if one turns left from Nerston on which side of the road was this place? MR DEETLEFS I cannot say for certain at this stage but it was approximately five to six kilometres from the point where one turns off left to Amsterdam or in the direction of Amsterdam. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs, on this particular evening did you fire any shots? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR PRINSLOO With which firearm did you shoot? MR DEETLEFS I was armed with an R1 rifle. MR PRINSLOO And can you recall in which direction or how many shots you fired? MR DEETLEFS If one looks at the bakkie I would say that it would be some of the shots on the side of the door and at the pillar section, possibly if I recall correctly I had the "tap-tap" habit of firing two shots after each other. MR PRINSLOO Now the weapon that you made use of was this your own weapon or the weapon that you received? What was the position? MR DEETLEFS I received or borrowed the weapon from Piet Retief Security Branch. It was the custom that Security Branches always kept a quantity of weapons in their safes for possible actions. MR PRINSLOO And this particular Security Branch at Piet Retief was this building which was situated quite far away from the police station itself? MR DEETLEFS That is correct? MR PRINSLOO Was it a private building? MR DEETLEFS Yes it was a privately rented building. MR PRINSLOO And the police station was situated in a completely different street? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs furthermore, a photo was submitted, and this is referred to as Exhibit A, and the marked one is Exhibit C, which Mr de Kock has marked. The photos in the carry bags according to you can you remember if these are the same? MR DEETLEFS Yes, it appears to be the weapons which were found in the back of the vehicle. MR PRINSLOO Now in this vehicle, according to the evidence, there were two persons and a third person who was shot, one Sithole. MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Where was he shot? Where was he when he was shot can you recall? MR DEETLEFS My recollection is that he fell approximately a metre to the right at the back of the bakkie, from the right back point of the bakkie, a metre diagonally away from that point, that is where he fell. MR PRINSLOO Was he merely a passenger or was he the driver of the vehicle? MR DEETLEFS He was the driver. MR PRINSLOO Did you fire at him? MR DEETLEFS No, because when the vehicle stopped he jumped out rather hastily and ran around the bakkie. From my point I could not observe him and I did not shoot at him. MR PRINSLOO And there's also a person who is referred to as one Sindane, do you know anything about his later arrest? MR DEETLEFS Yes I do know about it. MR PRINSLOO And do you know that he was wounded? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Were you responsible for his wound? MR DEETLEFS No. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman at page 66 of the judgment of his Lordship Mr Justice Daniels, at paragraph 1.10.5, it is referred to by that honourable judge in his judgment "The infiltration of the persons known as Bernard, Tolman, Sithole and Sindane, known as Mahlaba Nkosi or Stan, who were at the time heavily armed". Now this person who is known as Mahlaba Nkosi or Stan, did you know him by those names? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is Mr Sindane's MK name. MR PRINSLOO And is it correct that Mr Sindane was charged in the regional court at Ermelo for this particular cache of weapons and other charges and that he was found guilty and sentenced to imprisonment? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Now you personally, were you involved in the investigation into the matter of Dladla and Maseko? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I was overall. I had knowledge but Mr Pienaar was the one who conducted the procedure or the investigation, but because I was his commander I had insight into the dossier and I was constantly in touch with him with regard to the progress of the matter. MR PRINSLOO And do you know how the tracks of the bakkie were taken in Exhibit E or not, do you know anything about that? MR DEETLEFS Yes with the interrogation of Dladla and Maseko it appeared that this vehicle had been used to transport people from Swaziland to the RSA to infiltrate them in order for them to plant landmines in the Eastern Transvaal. We obtained border post records and determined that this was indeed the case that the bakkie had upon various occasions upon which such incidents of terror had taken place in the country, entered the country from Swaziland and returned via the border post into Swaziland, that this had been driven by Dladla. And we also had the name of Sithole with Dladla as another driver of the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, do I understand from this that you got dates from the border post as to when they had noted the bakkie passing through and these dates coincided with when they had or - when I say "coincided" they might not have been identical, they might have been the day before or the day after, but they were at the same time as there had been terrorist attacks in the country. MR DEETLEFS In the Eastern Transvaal. CHAIRPERSON In the Eastern Transvaal, ja. MR PRINSLOO Now Mr Deetlefs during that period, which preceded, were there various landmine explosions in the Eastern Transvaal? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And Maseko and Dladla, as well as Ebrahim were prosecuted due to those explosions, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR PRINSLOO With the exception of an explosion which took place near Balfour on a farm where a landmine had been planted where one Sindane and another person were killed. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And for that incident Dladla and Maseko were not prosecuted. MR DEETLEFS No they were not. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs, did you also work closely with informers and so forth in Swaziland and did you have knowledge regarding the activities of the ANC from Swaziland to the Republic? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO In this particular action was there at that stage in time a high incidence of incidents in Natal and in the Eastern Transvaal as they were then known? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And there were also similar incidents on the Rand. MR DEETLEFS Yes, with regard to landmines particularly. MR PRINSLOO And there were charges brought against Dladla, Maseko and Ebrahim pertaining to infiltrations to the Rand. MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And consequent actions there. MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And on this particular point in time, when the action was launched, according to your opinion the situation was explosive or not for the police and society? MR DEETLEFS It was so, it was quite clear at that stage that the ANC had sharpened its armed struggle and it was a very critical situation for the police. MR PRINSLOO And the consideration that you gave, along with the person who was in command, Mr de Kock, did it include these aspects? Did you consider these aspects? MR DEETLEFS Yes we did. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, can I interrupt again. I am afraid I haven't got the papers before me so I am uncertain about the dates, but we have heard in another application, about a - they had divided the country, there was a uMkhonto military commander for Natal and there was an application I think we are going to hear next week, an uMkhonto commander for the Transvaal, that they were organised to that extent. They had definite people responsible for the areas in the Republic. Is that so? Had you got such information? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. From Swaziland, for example, the Natal machinery operated as well as the rural Transvaal machinery and the urban Transvaal machinery. MR PRINSLOO Were you familiar with what was known in Swaziland at that stage as the Regional Politico Military Committee. MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Of which Ebrahim was a member and various others such as Paul Dikeledi and others. MR DEETLEFS That is so. MR PRINSLOO Were there any actions launched from Swaziland about which you know which executed special operations? MR DEETLEFS Yes there were various such attacks which were launched by them, amongst others two attacks on Sasol and so forth during which they were indeed involved. MR PRINSLOO And according to your knowledge was the import of the weapons were any groups used who would conduct the import and other groups who would conduct the explosions? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. There were various occasions, with certain occasions they made use of trained groups who would establish DLBs and others employed collaborators or favourably inclined persons who would then assist with the establishment of DLBs, thereafter the actual persons who would conduct the actions of terrorism would fetch the weapons in order to conduct such actions. MR PRINSLOO Now these persons who were shot dead in the bakkie, known as Bernard and Tolman, they also had other names, did you fire at them as a result of malice or any grudge that you bore against them or any sense of personal gain? MR DEETLEFS None at all. MR PRINSLOO And at that stage, with regard to them, did you act in the execution of your duties, whether express or implied? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Well there's obviously no personal malice, but it has always caused me some little difficulty you see how you don't have malice to enemies of your country whom you are engaged in fighting and killing. MR PRINSLOO I take the point Mr Chairman. What do you say Mr Deetlefs? MR DEETLEFS Definitely from that perspective, Chairperson, I would agree with you, but this was the objective because they were the enemy. I regarded them as soldiers as my opponents, in that case, and I definitely had the intention and the objective to kill them but I did not draw any personal advantage from this. MR PRINSLOO And inasfar as it pertains to the other person, that would be Sithole, the person who drove the vehicle, according to you for which reason was he shot? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I regarded it, and this was my perception, as the situation that such a person could not really be trusted if he was allowed to return to Swaziland. The ANC would most definitely have taken him as the prime suspect and they would have taken him to Zambia for interrogation and then his role in this whole situation would have been exposed and then different things could have happened. It could have threatened our position in Swaziland. It could have placed our persons working in Swaziland at a disadvantage. They could have been lured into traps. So I couldn't trust them and I had experience of similar cases where informers were attempted to be recruited but they ended up turning against us and this created very dangerous situations for us. So with regard to me we certainly could not allow this person to return to Swaziland. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs there was also another person who was shot in the environment but not by you, do you associate yourself with this, with this action? MR DEETLEFS It was part of this very same action although they took place at different places it was all part of one and the same action. The one followed on the other. MR PRINSLOO And do you also associate yourself with the death of the driver of the vehicle, Mr Sithole? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is so. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs under those circumstances you then apply for amnesty for the death of these persons, their murder, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And there was also a post mortem inquest which was led informally, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And during that application you submitted an affidavit for the PMI? MR DEETLEFS That is correct? MR PRINSLOO Just a moment please Chairperson. MR LAX Page 1 and 2. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Deetlefs, in this particular affidavit to which you deposed is the truth embodied or not? MR DEETLEFS No there are a number of untruths. MR PRINSLOO Very briefly which paragraphs would you say are not true? MR DEETLEFS Paragraph 2, the word "observation service", I would rather have stated that "an ambush was set up". In paragraph 4 everything is incorrect. Paragraph 6 the second sentence - "He struggled to cock the weapon". that is incorrect. And the last sentence - "I noticed that the black man had a pistol in his hand". As I have stated that was a perception. It appears that in all probability it cannot be correct. That was my perception so I would prefer to be led by others in that regard. Paragraph 7 is incorrect in its entirety. Paragraph 8 the first sentence is not correct. The rest appears to me to be correct. MR PRINSLOO And inasfar as it affects the investigation into the PMI Mr Pienaar also made a statement. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO So under the circumstances you also request amnesty for perjury because there were false statements that you made as well as defeating the ends of justice? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Because you did not present the true facts of what really took place. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Or any other offence which may emanate from the evidence which will be presented before the honourable Committee. MR DEETLEFS Yes I do so. MR PRINSLOO Thank you honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well he can't ask for amnesty for any offence that he hasn't applied for amnesty within the time limit. If some completely new offence emerges during the evidence, that does not fall under his application. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. But for the offences that you have requested, which is put forward before this Committee as well as any other delict which might emanate from the evidence of persons who were killed or damage done to vehicles. MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Deetlefs if I ask questions of you which might be directed at Mr Pienaar you must tell me what knowledge if any did you have of the driver of the bakkie, Mr Sithole. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I did not deal with him myself. I left it to Warrant Officer Pienaar. MR HATTINGH So you think I should ask him questions about it. And may I just ask you in general, did you have a relatively elaborate network of informers who supplied you with information as to what was happening in Swaziland? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And did you, because of the information which you obtained from these informers, know who the MK members were who were in Swaziland and what their activities were? MR DEETLEFS Yes, to a great extent we knew who was in Swaziland, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH For example a Kaledi is mentioned, did you know of him? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH Who and what was he, according to the information which you had? MR DEETLEFS At that stage he was the commander of the so-called Transvaal Machinery, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And did you know who the other members of that cell were who served under him? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Arising from that it appears that the driver was questioned at the Piet Retief police station on a previous occasion. Do you know anything about that? MR DEETLEFS Yes Chairperson, I have to depend on hearsay here, what Mr Pienaar told me, but it is so that after when we arrived at the border post with regard to the bakkie when he came through the border post again the border post informed W/O Pienaar that the person had come through the border and W/O Pienaar detained the person for questioning. It was not really an arrest. I would rather call it detention for purposes of questioning, and then I would want to say, threatened the person that if he would bring persons through once again that he supply information to W/O Pienaar about it otherwise we would cease his visits to the RSA and would detain him if he would enter the RSA again. And that is how I have it, that he was basically threatened to supply us with information if he wanted to infiltrate more people. CHAIRPERSON And I think he was - well this I don't know if you were told about, he was also asked about certain ANC members that they had in detention. He was in fact taken into a cell to confront one. MR DEETLEFS I don't know but I think that is probably so, that he was questioned about Dladla and Maseko because they were part of the same group. CHAIRPERSON Do you know anything about any money offered? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson, I don't know about that. CHAIRPERSON And this is the sort of information that he knew who was in custody; he knew that you were now tightening up on the border; that you didn't want to go back to Swaziland. You didn't want him to go back and to tell the MK people there that two of their members were in detention being questioned and that they knew all about the trans-border visits? MR DEETLEFS That was part of it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Mr Deetlefs I represent Mr Labuschagne. Can we have a look at the post mortem inquest page 1 of Bundle 2. MR DEETLEFS I do have it before me. MR DU PLESSIS I made a clear note of what you had said of what is correct there and what is not correct there. There are some things that do not make sense to me. I would just like to clear that up. On paragraph 6 you testified, if you would study paragraph 6 please, as I understand your evidence you said that the second sentence there is not correct. And then the last sentence we shall arrive at momentarily. The second sentence are the words "he struggled to cock the weapon". May I just ask you about the first sentence. If we read it you say - "Before the vehicle stopped the driver, a black man, jumped out with an AK47 in his hand". are you saying that is correct? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson. Unfortunately I missed that sentence. That is not correct. He jumped out. Unfortunately I missed the AK there. He did not have a weapon in his hands when he jumped out. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. And if we go on the same point to paragraph 10 you will see there "After the fire had ceased I noticed that the driver of the vehicle was lying in the road and a cocked AK47 of Russian origin was under his body and this weapon was secured by W/O Pienaar". is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, no. I know that the firearm was either placed next to him by Mr de Kock or by Mr Pienaar. So at the time when I came around the back it could be that the firearm was with him at that stage, but originally he did not have a firearm with him. The firearm was planted on him and I cannot say at which stage the planting took place. MR DU PLESSIS So if this paragraph wants to purport that he had been shot with an AK47 in his possession, you are saying that is not correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is not correct. MR DU PLESSIS If we return to the final sentence of paragraph 6 I would just like to find out from you what is your evidence exactly. You say "One of the passengers struggled to open his door on the left-hand side of the bakkie and I saw that the black man had a pistol in his hand". I understood you to say that this was a perception - that you cannot recall it correctly, you are not certain, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is so Chairperson. I would want to half imagine that the door was in the process of opening. With regard to the pistol, I know we mentioned it as such in the request document. I can really not recall that when the door opened whether the person had a pistol in his hand or not. That is why I concede, that I accept if the other person said that he did not have it then I will accept it as such because I cannot recall it directly. MR DU PLESSIS So if I understood your evidence correctly you are saying that you cannot recall that you saw a person jumping out with a pistol in his hand on the left-hand side of the van? MR DEETLEFS Yes I cannot recall a pistol. MR DU PLESSIS And you are saying you saw the door opening slightly? MR DEETLEFS Yes it appeared to be that he was trying to get out but with the shots he fell back into the bakkie. He could not get out. MR DU PLESSIS Was this before the shots or after the shots that he tried to get out? MR DEETLEFS It happened so quickly that it could have been simultaneously with the shots or a fraction of a second before the shots were fired, or a fraction of a second after the shots were fired. It just happened in a fraction of a second. MR DU PLESSIS Your evidence is very cryptic about this. In your evidence-in-chief when - or when you drew up your amnesty application, may I ask you as follows, did you attempt to have it - adjust so it would fit in with the post mortem document? MR DEETLEFS No. MR DU PLESSIS If we study your amnesty document then if I can take you to, or if I may refer you to page 122, the second sentence of the sixth paragraph there the words "The driver immediately jumped out and ran around the back of the van". Now we know, from your evidence, and that is what you have testified, and that is correct, while the one passenger jumped out on the left-side of the vehicle with a pistol in his hand, where did you come by this when you drew up your amnesty application? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson as I have said up to this morning I still have this perception of the door opening and still I want to imagine seeing this person jumping out with this pistol, but after I heard the evidence yesterday I may concede that I might have imagined that, but it is still my perception that this person could have jumped out of the vehicle with a pistol in his hand. As I have said this is a long time ago. MR DU PLESSIS Is that a perception that he jumped out? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is so. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Deetlefs you realise that you are under oath? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR DU PLESSIS And your evidence is that up to this morning you were still under that perception. MR DEETLEFS Yesterday or this morning, during Mr de Kock's evidence. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Deetlefs either it was till you heard Mr de Kock's evidence or it was till this morning. You can't have it both ways. MR DEETLEFS Up to this morning. To put it as such Chairperson I imagine that this person wanted to jump out with this firearm in his hand, so that was my perception let us say till this morning. MR LAX It's your perception even till now. MR DEETLEFS Yes it is still so but I concede that I may be wrong. MR LAX Yes, yes, sorry Mr du Plessis. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, thank you. Because I just understood that you said that you could not recall it. MR DEETLEFS I did not say that I could not recall it. I said that it was a long time ago. I concede that it might have been different because I cannot recall it quite clearly. I do concede that it could not be so. MR DU PLESSIS What does it mean when you say "this is your perception"? MR DEETLEFS That is how I saw it and that is how I still see it Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS But then if you see it and you still see it then you recall it. MR DEETLEFS No, it is as I have said this was a long time ago, that is why I call it a perception. I do concede that I may be incorrect, that is why I say I do not put it as a fact, I state it as a perception. MR LAX Sorry Mr Deetlefs, surely this is your recollection? You are playing semantics here using the word "perception". Either you have a memory of something or you don't. If you remember that that's what happened, and even if you concede that your memory might be wrong, that's your memory of the thing. MR DEETLEFS I shall concede that, yes, then. MR LAX Yes, so let's not play word games here. That's what you remember. MR DEETLEFS Ja. MR LAX But you acknowledge that you might be wrong. MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You use the word "perception" as meaning "that is what I remember". MR DEETLEFS Yes, yes we could say so, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Right. Now Mr Deetlefs you also discussed it as such with your legal representative when you made preparations for this application. MR DEETLEFS That is probably so, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS If that is what you recall can you please explain to us why Mr Prinsloo, your legal representative, did not put this to Mr de Kock when Mr de Kock specifically testified that no-one jumped out of the left-side of the vehicle, why was your version not put to him? MR DEETLEFS I cannot answer on behalf of my legal representative. MR DU PLESSIS Is the conclusion that we draw from your evidence not that you could not recall it? MR PRINSLOO With respect Mr Chairman the witness testified and said his memory, he used the word "perception" at first and he has now conceded it means his memory, he has cleared this up in evidence and he said de Kock might even be correct. So what was there for me to put to Mr de Kock if that was his instructions to me, with respect Mr Chairman. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman his evidence this morning first was that he couldn't remember it, that he didn't remember it, then he testified after cross-examination that he did remember it, that perception is what he remembers and my question is, if that is so, if it is so that he does remember this and it is part of his amnesty application why wasn't that put to Mr de Kock? And I made a specific note of that Mr Chairman. You don't even have to go back, with respect, to your records. I knew this was going to be a problem and I listened specifically to what was put. It was not put. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman I respectfully submit what my recollection is to his evidence he did not say he did not remember. He explained it with regard to the perception as to what it was. I particularly led him on that point. CHAIRPERSON My note here, and I don't really see that it makes a great difference, the person - he was asked by his counsel "The person jumped out with a pistol. You say the person jumped out with a pistol, de Kock says nobody did". And the answer was - "It was a long time ago. I said this in the inquest affidavit. If others say it didn't happen I will agree, but my recollection is he did". MR DU PLESSIS That's what he testified in-chief, yes. CHAIRPERSON And that's what he's testifying to now. MR DU PLESSIS Well not when I started with cross-examination. He changed his version and then he changed it back to that Mr Chairman. But the fact of the matter is it was never put to Mr de Kock. CHAIRPERSON No. MR DU PLESSIS It was never put to Mr de Kock, this version. But you are saying you don't have an explanation for this Mr Deetlefs? MR DEETLEFS I beg your pardon will you repeat that? MR DU PLESSIS You say you did not have an explanation as to why this recollection of this person who jumped out of the vehicle was not put to Mr de Kock? MR DEETLEFS As I have said I cannot answer on behalf of my legal representative. MR DU PLESSIS And you told him that you would testify to that effect? MR DEETLEFS That is in my application as such, but I do believe, and I do not want to speak on behalf of my legal representative, but it is because I conceded that it is possible that my memory might fail me and it is because of this that, or my version or Mr de Kock's version could be correct. MR DU PLESSIS Very well then, if we have regard for the facts, if we accept that your memory is that this man jumped out with a pistol then I accept, as it says on page 122 that he jumped out. And then the second paragraph on page 122 - "Eugene de Kock immediately started firing and the other members followed him". So he jumped out with a pistol in his hand and then you started shooting, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson no, when I mean he jumped out I think I said he attempted to jump out and then at that stage I cannot recall whether Mr de Kock started firing first or who started firing but I know that we all started firing at approximately the same time. MR DU PLESSIS Very well then. Because as I understand it, as I read the amnesty application the shooting ensued after the man jumped out, that has to be. MR DEETLEFS No it was just about simultaneously. As I have said we are referring to fractions of seconds here. MR DU PLESSIS Do you recall now that he jumped out or that the door just opened slightly? MR DEETLEFS I cannot say with certainty whether he jumped out. It appeared to me as if the door was opening and he attempted to jump out and then he fell back into the van. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Deetlefs if you study the second paragraph on page 122 you say "I myself fired at the persons on the left-hand side of the vehicle because I was of the opinion that he was planning to fire at us". Do you stand by that statement? Is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson the words here might not be entirely correct. As I have said my recollection is that he attempted to jump out and my inference that I draw was that he might fire at us. MR DU PLESSIS Did you see him with a pistol in his hand? MR DEETLEFS My recollection is to that effect Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Then I put it to you that the door could not have been open slightly, it had to be open almost entirely for you to see him, this pistol in his hand. MR DEETLEFS Well then slightly ajar might just be the words I might be using incorrectly. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. You say that you fired at him because you thought that he was going to fire at you, and I put it to you, is that the only inference we can draw is that you fired at him after you saw him climbing out with a pistol in his hand? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson as I have said this was an inference I drew. We knew that these people would be armed and the recollection is that he had a firearm and the moment the door started opening I started firing, not only at him but also at the other passenger as well. MR DU PLESSIS Because you see Mr Deetlefs if we accept that this man, when you stopped there had jumped out of the bakkie and that you fired at him then, then the question arises, in my mind, for which or for what reason would this man there, in that position, why would he climb out of the vehicle with a pistol in his hand? Do you have an explanation for it? I will still put questions about it to you but please you now have an opportunity to explain. MR DEETLEFS I want to put it clearly because the man did not jump out of the vehicle, then he would be outside the vehicle. MR DU PLESSIS But he had a pistol in his hand? MR DEETLEFS That is my recollection, yes. MR DU PLESSIS Let's go back to the plan. The plan was that the informer would stop at this pre-arranged point, he would climb out and make as if he was urinating and then you would fire shots. Do you agree with that? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR DU PLESSIS If that was so and the informer did not let anything appear about this ambush and then would you agree with me is that the only inference one could draw is that the other two, who remained behind in the vehicle, while the other man went to urinate would not know anything about you people around there? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And if that was so then the question arises why this man had a pistol in his hand and also started climbing out. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson why he climbed out I don't know. Maybe he also wanted to urinate at that stage and the fact that he had a pistol in his hand at that stage I think he found himself in enemy territory. And I can only place myself in such a situation if you climbed out of a vehicle in enemy territory and you have a pistol with you you will keep the pistol with you for eventualities. MR DU PLESSIS You agree that this is speculation? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is speculation. MR DU PLESSIS Let us have a look at your statement in the post mortem inquest, this is paragraph 9, the paragraph you said that was incorrect. Paragraph 9 says the following, and you stood by this when you were asked what was correct and what was not the words were "It was very clear from the black man's attitude that they would not surrender without a fight". That is how I understood your evidence, that this man climbed out and it was clear that he would not surrender without a fight. Or am I not correct? MR PRINSLOO With respect Chairperson there is no such evidence. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman he was asked what was wrong in this affidavit and what was not wrong and this paragraph, paragraph 9 was specifically not corrected by him. MR LAX He went a bit further, he said he agrees with the rest of it. MR DU PLESSIS Correct. So he agreed with that paragraph. But now I am asking on the basis of that what does he say about that. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I agree. If we read the sentence as such, "from the black man's attitude...." then it is not correct. I have just studied this briefly. What I meant by that is that the fact that weapons were found with them was a clear indication, the firearm and the handgrenade in front of the van, and because of this I would concede that as it is put here it is not entirely correct, Chairperson. MR LAX The sentence says "It was very clear from the attitude..." not from the context of finding things after the event. You are talking about their conduct here. The whole context, if you read the thing in its totality, is you are justifying your actions in this affidavit. Isn't that so? MR DEETLEFS That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX So it's not about drawing conclusions from after the event, finding of explosives and so on, you are talking about a consistent pattern of conduct from which you drew the conclusion. And that pattern of conduct, which you are relying on in this affidavit is to justify your shooting these people. Isn't that so? MR DEETLEFS That is so. MR LAX Isn't that the same conduct as appears from your amnesty application? MR DEETLEFS That is so Chairperson. MR LAX So - please let's not play games here. That is what Mr du Plessis is putting to you. MR DEETLEFS That is so Chairperson, but I would say the word "attitude" here could lead to incorrect perceptions. MR DU PLESSIS But the question is simple Mr Deetlefs. You will recall that this man jumped out, that is your recollection or your perception, you can recall with a pistol in his hand; you can recall whether it appeared as if he wanted to fire at some people there or whether he wanted to urinate or can you not recall? MR DEETLEFS According to my recollection he attempted to climb out of the vehicle with a pistol. MR DU PLESSIS You will then agree that paragraph 9, in this post mortem inquest is not correct, do you agree with that? MR DEETLEFS That is so, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Now Mr Deetlefs if we accept that the informer did not tell these MK members that there is an ambush in front, I will stop in the middle of this ambush, I ask you again why would this man climb out of the vehicle with a pistol? That is simply improbable. MR DEETLEFS That is so Chairperson, I cannot speculate about that. MR DU PLESSIS If we accept that the informer told them that there was an ambush before them then they would not have allowed him to stop there, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR DU PLESSIS And according to all permutations and versions this story about the man who jumped out of the vehicle read to attack you with a pistol, is entirely improbable Mr Deetlefs. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I conceded that my memory might have failed me. MR DU PLESSIS But Mr Deetlefs would you not like to go further and concede that the black man on the left side of this van did not jump out, would you not like to do that? Let us get to the truth. MR DEETLEFS It appeared to me as if he wanted to climb out and the door was opening. As I said it is my recollection. I do concede that it could have been my imagination but if I would say that it was not so then it comes down to the same that if I would say that it was so, because I can really not.... MR DU PLESSIS But Mr Deetlefs this process is about the truth and full disclosure. MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR DU PLESSIS And you have heard what was put to Mr de Kock in my cross-examination, that my client, Mr Labuschagne whose application word-for-word is the same as yours, will come to tell this Committee that this man did not climb out of the van, that this man was shot in the van, and that he never attempted to climb out. And my client Mr Labuschagne will tell the truth before this Committee. Now I ask you once again, can we not get to the truth, here is what Mr Labuschagne will say is not the truth. MR DEETLEFS What Mr Labuschagne and I say we differ with what we say according to our perceptions and our recollections but I cannot state it as a fact that my recollection is that the door opened and the man tried to climb out, that that is the truth. I say it is possible that I may have imagined this because everything happened very quickly. It could be that the man did not have a pistol in his hand and it is my imagination. I do concede that any of the versions could be true. I see my version as the truth. MR DU PLESSIS Very well Mr Deetlefs when you drew up your application who was your legal representative? MR DEETLEFS Mr Prinsloo. MR DU PLESSIS And the other applicants whose applications served before the Committee, Mr Greyling, his application, who managed his application? MR DEETLEFS It was by the same person, Mr Prinsloo. MR DU PLESSIS And Mr van Dyk? MR DEETLEFS The same legal representative. MR DU PLESSIS Is this Mr Prinsloo and Advocate van der Walt present here? MR DEETLEFS That's correct. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Pienaar as well? MR DEETLEFS Yes that's correct. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Botha? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR DU PLESSIS And Mr Labuschagne at that stage was also represented by them, he was with them? MR DEETLEFS If I recall correctly on one occasion he was there but originally he was there with us. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Labuschagne changed legal representatives last year in July of 1998, are you aware of it? MR DEETLEFS Yes I am aware of it. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Deetlefs I shall not ask you about the contents of your discussion with your legal representative, but I do want to ask you, were you consulted about this incident when the amnesty application was drawn up? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR DU PLESSIS Can you recall how long it was? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson as I have said at that stage it was at the late stage. I cannot really recall how long we consulted because we were a whole group of persons. As I have said originally it was drawn up very quickly and it was a hasty process, so it was not a long discussion that we had. MR DU PLESSIS Did you consult individually? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR DU PLESSIS And did you sign statements on the same day that you consulted? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I cannot recall whether it was the same day or a day or two later, I am not entirely certain. MR DU PLESSIS And do you know who drew up the statements of these persons, the persons we mentioned who were present there? MR DEETLEFS I don't know which parts Mr Prinsloo and which parts Advocate van der Walt wrote. As far as I am aware Advocate van der Walt did the typing work. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. And you saw that the statements are all just about the same? MR DEETLEFS I did not study all the other applications. MR DU PLESSIS Except for small differences they all look the same, I shall put that to you. MR DEETLEFS It is possible, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And can you explain to us how it came about that everyone's factual versions are virtually the same? MR DEETLEFS I have to speculate because my legal representative may be able to give a better answer, but because it was in such a brief time, we had to complete it in such a brief time and we were a large group of people, that we actually delivered the same versions and it was done on the same word processor by the same advocate, it is probable that many of these statements would be similar. MR DU PLESSIS And you all decided beforehand that you would say the same thing? MR DEETLEFS No we did not caucus as to what we would say. MR DU PLESSIS Did you not speak to any of the other applicants beforehand as to what you would say? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson, everyone just gave his own version. We did not decide beforehand about a joint statement. MR DU PLESSIS So how shall we accept that this exact wording of this one basic statement arises? MS VAN DER WALT Chairperson may I interrupt. I find it very strange, Mr du Plessis has been involved in various applications along with us and the honourable Chairperson is one who had said previously that it is so that there are - if various applicants have the same legal representative then the same things are put on a computer and if it's the same story it would have the same wording. I think if Mr du Plessis has something against the legal representatives of the applicants he must have the professional decency to ask for an adjournment and then place it before the Committee, because I wish to place it here that the applicants must not be prejudiced because of Mr du Plessis' feelings towards a legal representative. I have had many times where in applications where the one would say I refer to the statement of this general and I asked that this be incorporated in my evidence and I just ask the question to myself, is this not exactly the same as - the same word-for-word. If Mr du Plessis wants to tell something to the applicant that anybody had done anything wrong he must say it directly so. I would request that the honourable Committee give a finding about this because I believe that we will never complete this application. I ask this out of fairness towards the applicant. It is not about me. It is about whether it is fair towards the applicants who here attempt to try and reconcile and not start a civil war. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman all I am doing is I am presenting my client's case and I am guarding my client's interests. As you would have noted up to now my client and his evidence is going to differ substantially from what is contained in his written application, because he told me what happened at the scene and that is the evidence that we will present to this Committee. I, however, Mr Chairman may I just please - I, however, have to explain to the above honourable Court how it came about that my client did sign this affidavit. I have got nothing, absolutely nothing against Mrs van der Walt or Mr Prinsloo even though they may think that I have. It is a question of fighting for my client and fighting for his rights. And I intend to place the true facts before this Committee and to do that I have to ask my client to differ substantially from the evidence in his written application and I have to lay a basis for the reason why he did so, Mr Chairman. My client told me that he cannot remember, and that is the reason why I am exploring this, he cannot remember if the applicants themselves, beforehand, decided on this version and did not tell Mrs van der Walt or Mr Prinsloo the true facts, or if they had told them the true facts and that this affidavit, however, was then drawn irrespective of the true facts. Now I don't believe and I never believed the latter mentioned was the probable one, but Mr Deetlefs testified in his evidence, when I asked him, that they never sat together and decided on a specific version. Now my client's evidence will be that he was consulted with for 15 minutes by Mrs van der Walt. He was not consulted in detail on the true facts of this matter and thereafter he signed the affidavit, this affidavit and he signed it on the same day as the consultation took place. I have got nothing against Mrs van der Walt and Mr Prinsloo, and I do not want to believe that anything untoward was done and I have got no motive or malice or anything in this regard, but the fact of the matter is, Mr Chairman, my client cannot remember if there was an agreement between the applicants beforehand to give the facts to Mrs van der Walt and Mr Prinsloo on this basis, or how this affidavit came about. And that is what I am exploring. If there's an ethical or a professional problem here Mr Chairman it is not for you or for this Committee to deal with it. That is a totally different situation and believe me I don't intend to explore anything in that regard and I have no intention to do so. All I want to do is I want to be able to explain to you why my client's evidence is going to differ substantially from this. If you want me to leave the questions I have been asking around this issue then I will do so. CHAIRPERSON Well it is clear, I think, that there basically is a great deal in common between the various applications. There are variations as well where one of the people said, "but as regards the incident itself a version was accepted and put forward", and that I think is quite clear they are word-for-word the same, but there are, as I have said, differences where one or other of the applicants indicated he did something different from the others, not as the incident itself perhaps, but that is something we have found in a number of other applications haven't we Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS I know Mr Chairman, and you yourself has mentioned that, and I am not making anything of that Mr Chairman. What I am trying to explore is the reason why my client signed an affidavit which he now says contains fact that are not correct. CHAIRPERSON Well isn't that something your client will have to tell us. Can this witness tell us the reason why your client signed an affidavit? MR DU PLESSIS Well Mr Chairman what this witness can do is he can tell us the circumstances surrounding the signing of these affidavits. That is what I am exploring. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he's done that. MR DU PLESSIS Then I will leave it and I won't ask further questions on this issue Mr Chairman. Very well. Mr Deetlefs you would probably agree with Mr de Kock's evidence that no-one was on the back of the bakkie? MR DEETLEFS No not on the back of the bakkie, there was no-one. MR DU PLESSIS And can you recall who the persons were who lay in the line of ambush with you? MR DEETLEFS Well I cannot recall all of them but I know as we lay from the front point of the bakkie and onwards, first it was Mr Fourie, then it was me, then Mr de Kock and if I recall correctly the next person was W/O Pienaar. I cannot recall the succession in possession of all the other persons there. I know that Mr Labuschagne was there. Mr Greyling was also there. The other persons from Vlakplaas and other persons I cannot recall precisely all the persons who were there and I cannot recall their precise positions either. MR DU PLESSIS Very well let me just put to you what Mr Labuschagne will testify. He will give evidence that the persons who were present there were Mr Pienaar, Mr Botha, you, Mr Fourie, Mr de Kock, Mr Greyling and then he is not certain of Mr Bosch. MR DEETLEFS That is correct so, Chairperson. I also cannot recall Mr Bosch nor Mr Willemse. It was only here that I realised that they were also involved, but I really couldn't even recall them any longer. MR DU PLESSIS And Mr Labuschagne will also give evidence that he was responsible for shooting the informer, that he shot the informer. Do you have anything that you recall about that? MR DEETLEFS I cannot say definitely but if he maintains that I would not find fault with it at all. MR DU PLESSIS Then I want to ask you, page 120 of Bundle A, the second paragraph, in the final sentence of the second paragraph there you gave evidence that it was your intention actually to say that it was agreed with the informer that an arrest would ensue. Did I understand your evidence correct? MR DEETLEFS That is how I stated. This is what I heard from Mr Pienaar. I never had a personal discussion with the informer as such. MR DU PLESSIS And I understand your evidence to indicate that the order was that everyone had to be shot during the ambush. MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR DU PLESSIS And at the border post? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I cannot say for certain but as I have it, it was decided that the persons who would come through also had to be eliminated but that we would leave this over to Mr van Dyk's judgement in order to see how things would develop on ground level, because we were not completely certain who would lead these people in and how many people there would be. So according to the current situation we had to make our decisions. Our viewpoints, however, was that if possible these persons also had to be eliminated. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. And if you look at the third paragraph on page 120 you will see the second sentence states that one group would take up position at the T-junction in an attempt to arrest the person who had led the other persons across the border before returning to Swaziland. That would not be entirely correct. MR DEETLEFS No it is not entirely correct. The arrest was not exactly correct. Shooting would have been better. MR LAX Can I just ask a question here, sorry, would you allow me to intervene. Mr Deetlefs the intention was to kill those people, to eliminate them, I am talking about the people at the border if it was possible. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAX Well how on earth would they be arrested because to arrest somebody means you get them in your hands? If the intention is to kill them then you kill them rather than arrest them, surely? MR DEETLEFS That is correct ...(intervention) MR LAX So how could arrest have been an option in that circumstance? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson because, as I have stated, we left it over to Mr van Dyk's judgement. The objective was to shoot but we knew that there were certain cases where the ANC made use of cattle shepherds to help them find the route across the border, and if something like that were to happen then Mr van Dyk would have to allow himself to be led by the situation because one could not simply shoot a child for example. The idea was for he, himself, to take these decisions at ground level. MR LAX But if the decision was to eliminate everybody, and that was the order, where does arrest come into it at all? Because either you would eliminate them or they would escape. You wouldn't get somebody in the hand thereafter, isn't that so? MR DEETLEFS That is probably so. MR LAX Thank you. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Deetlefs this PMI report ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry before you go on, as I understand what you are saying now and what you've said in answer to Mr Lax, was that if the people who came back were ANC or were thought to be ANC agents or members they should be eliminated? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON If it appeared they were not, they were shepherds or some innocent party who had only been involved in this incident, they should not be eliminated? MR DEETLEFS That was left over to Mr van Dyk. CHAIRPERSON Van Dyk then had a discretion not to eliminate. But if they were ANC he had no discretion. MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry Mr Deetlefs, and how would he exercise this discretion? MR DEETLEFS It would have been very difficult because it was dark, but as I have stated this was an option that was left over to him. We could not prescribe to him how he was supposed to act. MR LAX Wasn't his instruction to lay an ambush? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAX And how do you differentiate when you lay an ambush? MR DEETLEFS Well I don't suppose one could differentiate, especially not in the dark. MR LAX So I mean to all practical purposes this question of determining who was leading them back, surely that's really a long shot? MR DEETLEFS Yes I suppose it is so, because our order was to shoot, but I would imagine that an option was left over to Mr van Dyk and he would probably be able to testify much better about this. MR LAX Isn't the other question this, that you actually had information that there would be people guiding them, people you knew about? Your information was these people had come across the border on many occasions, not so? MR DEETLEFS Yes Chairperson, as far as I can recall the information was that one Knox would drop these persons off and that Sithole would pick them up on this side. As far as I can recall there was no information indicating precisely who would have led them over the border. MR LAX Yes but you knew the modus operandi. These were people who were carrying weapons for them and guiding them at the same time. MR DEETLEFS No it wasn't like that in all cases ...(intervention) MR LAX Weren't they bearers and guides? MR DEETLEFS Yes in many cases there were such incidents but there were also other cases where the ANC would make use of shepherds to indicate the route to these trained persons. So there wasn't a determined modus operandi as such. MR LAX Wasn't the issue that you didn't know how many people were being brought into the country, not that you didn't know who would be leading them? MR DEETLEFS I beg your pardon I didn't hear you. MR LAX Wasn't the only issue in doubt as to the number of people who might be brought into the country? MR DEETLEFS There was talk of three or four I think, who would have entered, and I cannot recall that we had any notion of who precisely would accompany them over the fence. We had information that Knox Dlamini would take them to the fence and that Sithole would fetch them on this side, but we didn't know who was accompanying them. MR LAX But let's get back to the real point in issue here. Their instructions weren't to arrest people. MR DEETLEFS Our instructions in the first instance was to eliminate them, that's correct. MR LAX So, the question is, your instructions were to them were not to arrest people. You didn't give them instructions to arrest people, you gave them instructions to eliminate people. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAX Well then why does your papers here talk about arresting them? MR DEETLEFS Because as I have said, we gave Mr de Kock the idea that he had to take an independent decision. We gave him the order that people had to be shot. But I could not expect of him, for example, if it appeared that there was a young child involved to shoot this person. So there was always room for his own discretion to decide about this himself. That was left open to him. MR LAX Well if there were children in that vehicle, together with these MK people you guys didn't even worry about that. You just opened fire. MR DEETLEFS Yes we would have probably. MR LAX Well so you didn't even make that consideration in your minds at that time. Isn't that so? MR DEETLEFS Yes it is, if they were in the bakkie then that would have been so. MR LAX So what difference would it have made if there were children leading them or not? Your object was to stop this cell. That was Mr de Kock's evidence. Stop this cell and anyone who supported it. Make sure their activities did not continue. That was his evidence. That was your intention. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAX So if there were children working with the cell you would have stopped them. MR DEETLEFS If they were in the vehicle themselves, yes. MR LAX Or if they were leading them in? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I don't know, that would have been speculation. I cannot speak on behalf of Mr van Dyk. MR LAX Yes I am wanting to know what was in your mind. MR DEETLEFS I myself, if there was an unarmed child I don't know if I would have gone through with it, it would have been against my nature to shoot at such a person. I don't know how I would have acted. MR LAX But it wouldn't have made any difference with regard to the main ambush because you wouldn't have known. MR DEETLEFS No that is so, then you probably wouldn't have known and it wouldn't have made any difference. MR LAX Sorry, I interrupted you. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Deetlefs in your PMI statement, and you do not have to consult it specifically, there is evidence or facts which have been incorporated to the effect that the driver had an AK47 in his hand and that the other black man wielded a pistol. And if we ask the question for the reason why those facts were incorporated in the statement would you agree with me that it is quite clear that this was done in order to create the scenario of self-defence for the purposes of the statement which was submitted to you, the PMI? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Then you agree with me. Then I would also like to put it to you, the reiteration of the fact that the one passenger on the left side jumped out wielding a pistol in his hand, this fact that was reiterated in your amnesty application, is exactly the same, it is just another attempt to create self-defence for yourself in a case that may be made against you if you were not to obtain amnesty? MR DEETLEFS No, this is just for the purposes of my amnesty application. I am not trying to justify myself in any way otherwise I could have added many other facts. I am admitting here that we acted unlawfully, that we committed murder and in no way am I trying to justify our actions during that incident. CHAIRPERSON Who prepared the affidavits for the post mortem? MR DEETLEFS It was W/O Pienaar. CHAIRPERSON For all of you? MR DEETLEFS As far as I am aware, yes. MR DU PLESSIS And then I just omitted to put this to you as well Mr Deetlefs. Mr Labuschagne will give evidence that the references to "arrest", as it appears on page 120 of your application - just a moment please, where it appears on page 180 of his statement, are simply not correct, and that the simple facts are that the decision was taken to eliminate everyone at the point of ambush as well as at the border. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman is Mr du Plessis' question is wherever the word "arrest" appears it is incorrect? It also refers to the informer as well? MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson I am putting the evidence of my client. His evidence will be that a decision was taken previously that everyone would be shot dead during the ambush, including the informer, and that an attempt would also be made at the border to eliminate everyone who was involved on the MK side. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson Mr Labuschagne probably has his own recollection and I cannot say what he saw or what he heard and what he didn't hear, therefore he is entitled to his own opinion. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. May I then ask you, from the objection raised by Mr Prinsloo now, I infer, and I did not understand your evidence as such, I infer that you say that there was no previous decision to shoot the informers? MR PRINSLOO No, no, no, Mr Chairman I never said that. I merely asked for clarity, with respect, is Mr du Plessis putting it to the witness wherever the word "arrest" appeared it's incorrect. Because if you read paragraph 2 Mr Chairman, with respect, on page 120 of the applicant's application he is clearly referring as to what was told to the informer, where the word "arrest" appears on the last line of paragraph 2. MR DU PLESSIS Well that was not what I was putting Mr Chairman. Can I just get some certainty Mr Deetlefs. Your evidence was that there was a decision beforehand to shoot the informer as well? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS You agree with that? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON You see what appears, as I understand it, on page 120 at paragraph 2, is what the informer was told, not what the intent was. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, no I understand it. But Mr Labuschagne will say that whichever way you want to interpret that, that any reference to a decision that there should have been an arrest that was never ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What you are saying is that was a decision amongst the police officers was that there would never be an arrest? MR DU PLESSIS Correct, correct. So we are not disputing ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What was said to the informer was a different matter. It wasn't a decision taken amongst them. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, yes, and Mr Labuschagne wasn't present when the informer was spoken to, so he can't testify about that. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding there. Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Mr Deetlefs there is just something that I wish to clarify with you pertaining to the points where the T-junction was where Mr van Dyk and the others were located, why wasn't the entire ambush set up there? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I cannot recall why the decision was taken as such, but if I have to speculate about it now it would be because the persons had to come from Swaziland on foot and we were not completely certain how many of them there would be and exactly what route they would use to approach the vehicle. So we may have occupied the incorrect position. That is why we wanted everyone in the vehicle first, so that we could bring the vehicle to a standstill in a controlled place. MR LAMEY But why not at the point where they would climb into the vehicle? MR DEETLEFS Because we didn't know whether or not they would arrive earlier and approach the vehicle from another direction and when we have taken up the incorrect position they could have approached us from behind instead of approaching us from in front. MR LAMEY Very well. You have testified that you knew about Dlamini on the Swaziland side, Dlamini who would drop them off. MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR LAMEY And then on the RSA side Cedric Sithole would pick them up. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAMEY You did not know who would bring them through as such? MR DEETLEFS No, we did not know who the person would be. MR LAMEY And is it so that from general experience, I am not saying in all cases but sometimes from within your security police experience with regard to border work local population members would act as guides for these persons? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY And is it also correct that you anticipated that armed members, and we refer to MKs, armed ANC members, you anticipated that all of them would enter in the vehicle. The persons who would be in the vehicle would be armed MKs and it wasn't expected that armed MKs would return to Swaziland. MR DEETLEFS No, we didn't know that. MR LAMEY Is it correct to assume that it would have been important if, for example, a guide was to bring these persons through and all the armed members climbed into the vehicle with just one guide who was unarmed, to have to find his way back to Swaziland, that in such a case van Dyk and the others would arrest the man in order to obtain further information from him regarding who he was, how many persons he had infiltrated; which infiltration route they had followed and so forth, because that information would have been vital to you? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is probably so. MR LAMEY But the situation was flexible. If there were other armed members they would have to be shot. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is so. MR LAMEY And then with regard to the situation of command, in Piet Retief there was a sub branch of Ermelo. MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY Mr Pienaar was in command of the sub-branch. MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY And you as commander of Ermelo was also then the overall commander of Piet Retief? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAMEY If you can recall correctly was Mr Fourie, at that stage, assisting with photo identification from head office for the Piet Retief sub-branch? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAMEY Is it also correct to say that he, while he was working there, was under the command of Pienaar? MR DEETLEFS Yes Chairperson, for disciplinary purposes it usually operated as such. MR LAMEY Yes, and with regard to daily activities and assistance and security work. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAMEY And then when you arrived at the scene with regard to the operation, were you then the commander if one could put it as such, of the Eastern Transvaal members? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY And then also members who were assisting Piet Retief or Eastern Transvaal, members such as Mr Fourie? MR DEETLEFS Yes, under those circumstances. MR LAMEY And then ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Fourie was under the command of Mr de Kock ...(intervention) MR LAMEY No, no, no, no ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Wasn't he normally? MR LAMEY No, no, no, no, Chairperson at that - he was previously a member of Vlakplaas ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LAMEY ...but at that specific point in time he was a member of C2 of head office. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, C2, yes. MR LAMEY Not C1. CHAIRPERSON C2, okay. MR LAMEY So where Mr Fourie then states in his application that he regarded you as the commander, the commander of the operation would this be incorrect? MR DEETLEFS No, I believe that if he regarded me as such, if that was his interpretation, he would most probably have been correct. MR LAMEY One could accept that Mr de Kock with his operational experience on ground level in any combat situation or operational situation would have played the primary role. MR DEETLEFS Yes, for the purposes of the operation Mr de Kock would be the commander. MR LAMEY But in the overall sense, in your area, the primary information came from you and so therefore you would have been the commander of Eastern Transvaal in the overall sense, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes, at that stage it was the arrangement that when head office people worked in a certain region they would then subject themselves to the decisions of the local commander and then carry out their actions in terms of this. MR LAMEY Very well. The decision pertaining to the elimination of the driver, Shadrack Sithole, Mr de Kock testified that this decision was taken in the circle of the planners of which you and Pienaar and he were all members. MR DEETLEFS Yes as far as I can recall. MR LAMEY Including Labuschagne? MR DEETLEFS I cannot recall that Labuschagne was specifically issued with an order. It is probable that Colonel de Kock did so, but I cannot recall that any specific order was issued to him. However the decision was taken within our group. MR LAMEY But Mr Fourie states that he, specifically, was a subordinate officer and one of the members on ground level and that this decision did not reach him before Mr Labuschagne informed him that he was to eliminate the driver. MR DEETLEFS Well I cannot put it that Mr Fourie was present when the decision was taken and the order was issued as such, so therefore I don't know whether he may or may not have heard about it. MR LAMEY Very well. Thank you Chairperson I have got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMAWELE Thank you Mr Chairman, just a few questions. Mr Deetlefs is it your evidence that you show where W/O Paul van Dyk was situated? MR DEETLEFS Yes, he would have been positioned at the point or near the point where the vehicle would pick up the persons for the first time. MR RAMAWELE I am asking you this because I thought you said that Paul van Dyk was at a T-junction. MR DEETLEFS Yes in that vicinity. I myself was not at the scene. I did not drop them off nor did I pick them up so I don't know precisely where he was situated. All I know is that the plan was for him to be in the vicinity of the T-junction. That is where he would have taken up position. MR RAMAWELE So you are not in a position to tell the hearing where Paul van Dyk or Almond Nofomele was? MR DEETLEFS No I cannot say. MR RAMAWELE I have got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE CHAIRPERSON Would this be a convenient stage? We will take a short adjournment now. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Deetlefs on behalf of Mr van Dyk I would just like to put it to you that are you aware that there was more than one group that was involved in the elimination of these persons? MR DEETLEFS At the bakkie itself? MS VAN DER WALT No in the whole operation. MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Mr van Dyk was in command of the other two groups who were not at the bakkie. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And he received this instruction from Colonel de Kock. MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT He also, during that time he was under the command of Colonel de Kock. MR DEETLEFS That's correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Mr van Dyk will testify that he was at the T-junction, that is the road that joins the road that goes from Amsterdam to Nerston, that's the T-junction with the Nerston road. MR DEETLEFS I understood that he would be there, Chairperson. I was not physically at the scene myself. MS VAN DER WALT But you have knowledge of the T-junction there? MR DEETLEFS Yes I do. MS VAN DER WALT And are you also aware of a dirt road that makes a kind of short-cut that comes from the border to the Amsterdam/Nerston road? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And then there are bushes there, some black wattle trees and eucalyptus trees. MR DEETLEFS Yes that is so. MS VAN DER WALT Mr van Dyk will also testify that there was a discussion before the operation and he decided that the persons who would come in - he was not aware of how many persons would accompany them, but he would have to "arrest the person because he needed this person to take him across the border to determine where the vehicle or the other person was". Do you have any knowledge of that? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson that is how I testified. Earlier Colonel de Kock gave the command to him so I cannot recall verbally what exactly the instruction was, but I know there was talk of the in-between elimination and "arrest" was also mentioned. MS VAN DER WALT And you were already asked by Mr Lamey, it was not always trained persons who brought the persons in? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And just a further point. The person that was shot by Mr van Dyk it was later determined that that was Sandile, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Did you make any enquiries in Swaziland in order to determine this friend's identity? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I had a photo and fingerprints of the deceased which I handed over to the Swazi police and asked their assistance in the identification of the person and they could not establish any identification. MS VAN DER WALT Just a further aspect following on a question from the honourable Committee with regard to this bakkie, what usually happens with such a van because it would appear that Dladla and Maseko said that they saw the bakkie at the police station, what happens usually with such a bakkie? Is it placed in the SAP 13 camp? MR DEETLEFS Yes it is usually placed in the 13 camp and after a while if no owner could be traced or ownership cannot be determined it is sold at a public auction. MS VAN DER WALT Do you know whether this bakkie was placed in the 13 camp? MR DEETLEFS Yes it was Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Following on a question with regard to children who may have been in such a vehicle, do you bear knowledge of children that were ever sent in with MK fighters? MR DEETLEFS No I don't know of any children. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTHAI Mr Deetlefs, did your legal advisor inform you that you are supposed to give full disclosure of all relevant facts here? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Did your legal advisor inform you that full disclosure cannot be perception, it must be facts of what happened? Did he tell you that? MR DEETLEFS That is so, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now I am going to ask you questions, I don't want you to give me perceptions. You must give me what happened. Are you going to do that? MR DEETLEFS That is so, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now just before I start with my questioning, there was a judgment involving Maseko and Dladla which has been referred to here, are you aware of that judgment? MR DEETLEFS I am aware of that matter. MR NTHAI Did you attend the trial? MR DEETLEFS No I did not. MR NTHAI But you are quite conversant with the facts? MR NTHAI To a reasonable extent. I did not have insight into the records and I wasn't at the hearing so I would not know everything. I am just aware of the facts in general. MR NTHAI Your legal representative mentioned here about the - in that particular case, the talk of people who were placing bombs in the Eastern Transvaal, did you hear him saying that? MR DEETLEFS Correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Are you aware of those facts? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR NTHAI Is that Maseko and Dladla were placing the bombs in the Eastern Transvaal? MR DEETLEFS Not in all instances Chairperson, in certain landmine explosions they planted the landmines and that is why they were charged and found guilty later. MR NTHAI Are you - let me refer you specifically to the incident which almost all of you referred to here. There is talk of a tractor driver who was injured; there is talk of a schoolboy who lost his leg; you recall that in some of the ...(intervention) MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR NTHAI Who was involved in that incident? Is it Dladla and Maseko? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, yes. MR NTHAI Now you agree with me that on the 14th of August Dladla and Maseko were already arrested, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI According to the documents that I have here they were arrested on the 21st of June, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS I cannot recall the date any longer but that was before this incident. MR NTHAI Well there is an affidavit here by Maseko, which I am going to refer to you later, where he talked about being arrested in June. Is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That could be, I cannot comment to that. He was arrested in Johannesburg. MR NTHAI Now if Mr Pienaar is going to tell us that the people who ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, can you try not to bang on the table, what it does is it bangs in our earphones, unfortunately. MR NTHAI If Mr Pienaar is going to come here and testify that the people who came on the 14th in the bakkie were the people who placed the bombs that injured the truck driver and the boy, that is incorrect, is that not so? MR DEETLEFS That will not be correct. MR NTHAI Well which means even the plan that you had, the plan that these people must be eliminated was based on wrong facts, not correct? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson, because I don't believe it emanated quite like that, not as I saw it. There was never a connection with these persons who would come through in a bakkie and specific incidents. They were just connected with the machinery of Paul Dikeledi who was responsible for landmine incidents in, amongst others the Eastern Transvaal, and that is why we assumed that they were in a mission to commit acts of terror in the Eastern Transvaal. MR NTHAI Mr Chairman I am just trying to check the portion, I don't know whether it appears in Mr de Kock's but there is a portion which says that one of the reasons why there was a plan to eliminate these people was that the two ANC fighters had placed the bombs. I just can't locate it immediately. MR LAX It wasn't just in his application Mr Nthai, it was in his viva voce evidence yesterday as well. So you can accept - he was very clear that that was the reason. MR NTHAI Yes. Now Mr de Kock, I mean one of the reasons why these people had to be eliminated was this incident in particular which, I mean there were other incidents, but this incident in particular, which according to Mr de Kock could not be allowed to continue. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I cannot comment about what Mr de Kock testified. I cannot really recall what he said yesterday, but the fact remains that these people who infiltrated, we did not know who they were so we could not connect them with specific incidents. MR NTHAI So if I put it to you you can't deny that one of the reasons why these people had to be eliminated was because of the injuries of these people that sustained, the two people I talked about, you can't deny that? MR DEETLEFS This was part of, because of all the incidents in the Transvaal, and amongst others those incidents as well. MR NTHAI But the young schoolboy losing his leg, and the tractor driver being injured was really a spark which led to this plan to eliminate these people, is that not correct? MR DEETLEFS Amongst others it was considered, yes. MR NTHAI Now you already told me that you are quite aware of part of what happened in the trial of Maseko and Dladla though you don't have all the details, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS It's correct, yes. MR NTHAI You are also aware that this decision, this decision that your legal representative is referring to, was ultimately overturned by the Appellate Division, you are aware of that? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, with respect, I think my learned friend should inform the court properly. The reason for that particular judgment and the Appellant Division argument was because of jurisdiction. It was alleged that Ebrahim was abducted, he was not properly before the court, and for that reason the judgment was given in favour of Ebrahim with regard to jurisdiction. It did not pertain to Maseko and Dladla. They were legally before the court. So my learned friend, Mr Chairman, with respect, must specify what part of the judgment was overturned. MR NTHAI Well Mr Chairman I am quite aware of my learned - I was coming to that. I am quite aware that the judgment of the Appellant Division involved Ebrahim, I am aware of that. I was coming to that. I don't really understand why..... CHAIRPERSON Well didn't you put to him that the judgment was overturned on appeal, indicating that the whole judgment was thrown out, and that is what the objection is. MR NTHAI Mr Chairman I didn't say the whole judgment, I didn't say the whole judgment ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You said the judgment. MR NTHAI Yes. CHAIRPERSON You didn't indicate that it was any specific legal grounds and that is why there has been objection taken. Carry on now, but confine yourself to what actually happened. MR NTHAI Yes. You are aware that I was coming to that, that was going to be my next question. You are aware that Ebrahim was ultimately released because he was not brought properly before the court? MR DEETLEFS I know that on certain legal grounds he was released, Chairperson. MR NTHAI I want to bring you to the affidavit by Dladla and Maseko, I am sure whether you have had a look at that? MR DEETLEFS No I haven't. MR NTHAI The one of Maseko appears on page 70 of Bundle 2. MR DEETLEFS Correct. MR NTHAI You will realise that on paragraph 4 there he is confirming that he was actually arrested on the 21st of June? MR DEETLEFS That could be so, Chairperson. MR NTHAI And you realise that he is also saying that on the 17th of July already he was being asked about the colour of this bakkie which was used, you realise that? MR DEETLEFS It is possible. MR NTHAI And paragraph 7 there he goes on to indicate that he was actually confronted with a photo of Sithole, do you see that? MR DEETLEFS I do see that Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now did you at any stage, as the person who was in overall command come to know about the facts around the detention of Maseko? MR DEETLEFS Yes I was aware of the detention. MR NTHAI And you were aware of his interrogation? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI And you were aware of what he was telling his interrogators? MR DEETLEFS Yes I was informed by Mr Pienaar from time-to-time about the information which emanated from that questioning. MR NTHAI And he was giving you written reports, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI And from what you read in your reports Mr Maseko did give information about cells that were operating in Swaziland is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That was usually standard procedure that he would be questioned about that Chairperson, so it is probably so. MR LAX Well the question wasn't what was normally asked, the question was were you aware that that is what information he gave to Pienaar, and did Pienaar report it to you? MR DEETLEFS I cannot now remember what information precisely "en alles" deur ...... MR NTHAI Mr Deetlefs, you were in charge, correct MR DEETLEFS That is correct, yes. MR NTHAI And there were these incidents that were giving you a lot of problems in the Eastern Transvaal, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI And obviously if you had a person like Maseko detained, who was part of this ANC operation you would be very interested, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR NTHAI I would take it that you would read those reports with much concentration and some intensity, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is so. MR NTHAI And you did exactly that, not correct? MR DEETLEFS That is so, yes. MR NTHAI Now just tell me what you recall about what was reported about what Maseko said. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson I cannot, it was a long time ago. We dealt with many questionings and detentions. I can really not recall each and everyone in detail as to what had emanated from the questioning there. As I have said this was standard practice that one would question him about his movements from the time he left the country and in his instance one would question him about who were the other cell members and that is where the information about the bakkie came out. But at this stage I cannot recall in detail what each and every one of Dladla and Maseko's questioning emanated. It was just too long ago, I cannot recall. MR NTHAI So you had knowledge of the information about the bakkie before Sidele was abducted, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS We had information about the bakkie, yes Chairperson. MR LAX Who was abducted, sorry? MR NTHAI Before Sidele, September, before Sidele was abducted. MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now while I am still on that, when did Mr de Kock come into your area? MR DEETLEFS I cannot say with certainty. The evening before this incident I met him in Swaziland. I don't know whether he came from head office before that time or whether that same day on the 13th, whether on that he came through. MR NTHAI So you only saw Mr de Kock, only you say on the 9th of - which date? MR DEETLEFS No on the 13th. MR NTHAI Yes. I will now like to take you to the affidavit of Dladla. It appears on page 73. You will realise that on paragraph 4 he is also confirming that he used the bakkie on the 10th of June. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI You also realise that on paragraph 5 he is confirming that he was confronted with Sithole and he says that he initially denied and that Sithole also denied, but later on they admitted that they knew each other, do you realise that? MR DEETLEFS I see that, that is the allegation which is made in his statement. MR NTHAI Now, on the 11th, on the 11th, or a day after that, where - Mr Pienaar did he report to you in particular this incident where Dladla was confronted with Sithole? MR DEETLEFS No, he did not mention anything like that to me. MR NTHAI You were not aware that Sithole was already, on the 11th, being handled by the Security Branch, you were not aware of that? MR DEETLEFS Not before the 11th. MR NTHAI On the 11th? MR DEETLEFS At a stage between the 11th and the 14th, I cannot recall exactly when, on which date it was, whether it was the day before the 13th or when it was, W/O Pienaar did mention to me that the person with the bakkie had once again come through and that the person was Sithole and that he had attempted to recruit this man as an informer. MR NTHAI Did he tell you that he succeeded in recruiting him? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson as I have testified earlier there was no certainty, but through a process of threatening him he sent the man back and told him that if he once again becomes involved in ANC activities and he had to bring people through then he had to report it. So there was no given that he would do it. At that stage it was only an attempt at recruitment and it would later appear if he would do so or not. MR NTHAI On the 14th was he already recruited, on the morning of the 14th was he already successfully recruited? MR DEETLEFS Not as far as I now. It stood as I have mentioned it now. MR NTHAI So you are telling us that this man who complied with the requests that he would bring people, he would stop at a particular point, and carry out the request as put to him, would only do that because he was threatened, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS As I have said this was a method of recruitment, for which reason he returned, or whether he decided to betray the ANC I would not know. I can only say what W/O Pienaar told me how he had tried to attempt to recruit the man, but it is indeed so that the man came back on the 14th with information. MR NTHAI Just while we are - I want to refer you to page 75, that is the affidavit of Vusimusi Sindane. I want to take you to paragraph 3. You will realise he confirms that he worked with Shadrack and others. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI They were under the command of Paul Dikeledi. MR DEETLEFS Yes I see that. MR NTHAI And Sithole has been helping them transport guerrillas on the other side of the South African border. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI And paragraph 4 there you will realise that he is now talking about the plan of Bernard and Tolman coming into the country, and he was supposed to be escorted by him and one Zwandele, you realise that? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI And they were going to meet Sithole who would then transport them with the bakkie, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is so. MR NTHAI Paragraph 5, which I want you to pay particular attention to, he then goes on to say that on the 11th Sithole drove his bakkie on a reconnaissance trip to check whether there were any other funny activities and then to return to report to Paul Dikeledi and the other members who were involved in the operation, do you realise that? MR DEETLEFS I see that here. MR NTHAI On the 11th, that is the day when you were informed by Mr Pienaar that they were already handling, that's the day when they got hold of Sithole, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS If the date is correct, then that is the date upon which W/O Pienaar attempted his recruitment, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now he goes further to say in paragraph 6 that he saw Sithole on the morning of the 15th at the house of Paul Dikeledi and Paul Dikeledi questioned Sithole as to why he returned late. And Sithole explained by saying that no, look, I was buying some spare parts for my tractor. And then he mentions that the final agreements were made. Do you realise that? MR DEETLEFS I see that here, Chairperson. MR NTHAI So it looks like on the 11th Sithole went back to Swaziland, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is how I have it. MR NTHAI And also that on the morning of August, that could be most probably before he met with de Kock to show them the spots and stuff like that, he was also in Swaziland, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That's correct. MR NTHAI And you will realise from this affidavit that Paul already was becoming suspicious of him, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now if that is the case, and in some way he was even confronted, do you still insist that this man was working for the Security Branch because he was threatened or because he was given the money, or promised the money? MR DEETLEFS I don't know what his motivations were Chairperson. I can only say what W/O Pienaar told me about his discussion with this man. What his motivation was to supply the information to us, whether it be for money or for any other reason I am not able to say. MR NTHAI Okay. Now let's go to your affidavit of the inquest. And you are also confirming that this affidavit was taken by Mr Pienaar? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Is that normal? Is that how it's normally done, that a person involved in an incident would they want to take an affidavit? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson not in all instances, but at that stage during those years it was practice that the Security Police handles its own post mortem inquests. In this case it was probably not correct but W/O Pienaar started with the investigation and nobody higher up in the hierarchy stopped him so we just went through with it. MR NTHAI So are you trying to tell us that Mr Pienaar was investigating himself, is that what you are saying? MR DEETLEFS Amongst others, yes, Chairperson, that is what it would boil down to. MR NTHAI But didn't you question that this is unusual Mr Pienaar, why should you be the one because we are together to take the affidavit, did you question that? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson no, because we in the inquest in this case the statements, wanted to compile the statements in such a manner that it would be a normal post mortem inquest so that there could be no issue of subsequent prosecution afterwards, so that no prosecution of any police official would continue, and it was regarded as a normal inquest. MR LAX Isn't it so Mr Deetlefs you were the one, you were his commander, Pienaar's? MR DEETLEFS His direct commander, yes. MR LAX So obviously no-one higher up would have raised it. It was for you to raise it. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson no, because we served under the regional commander of the Eastern Transvaal and it was his prerogative, because he was also aware of it so he could have stopped it. MR LAX Yes but the fact of the matter is that you were wanting to cover this thing up anyway? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is so. MR LAX I mean no prosecutor picked it up. No magistrate who ran the inquest picked it up. MR DEETLEFS No. MR NTHAI Mr Deetlefs if indeed it was your intention to cover up what had happened didn't you foresee that having Mr Pienaar, who was part of the incident taking the affidavit that might create problems for you, didn't you see that? As a man of that rank at the time. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson not during those years because it was abnormal circumstances and I did not foresee that this would create any problems because it was an informal inquest. CHAIRPERSON Did it in fact create any problems, or was a verdict brought that was the one you wanted? MR DEETLEFS No Sir, not at all. CHAIRPERSON You mean you agree that there were no problems and the verdict was that the police had committed no wrong? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Tell me when you decided, the rest of you, when you decided to set up an ambush for these people, at the time you didn't feel that that was illegal. You felt you were justified to set an ambush, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes I think Chairperson that we were indeed aware that where one goes and shoots an informer it would naturally be illegal but we felt that it was justifiable under the circumstances. MR NTHAI I am talking about the whole group. I am not talking about the informer, I will come to that. I am just talking about when you decided to set an ambush for these ANC people, at the time you did not feel that it was illegal what you were doing? You didn't feel that the ambush was not justified. In other words there was nothing wrong as far as you were concerned at the time, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes I felt that our action was justifiable. MR NTHAI You were merely executing your duty to protect by then what you called the security of the Republic of South Africa, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That was my opinion, yes. MR NTHAI Now if that was the case, if that was the case, paragraph 2 of your affidavit, you already indicated that the question of observation was not correct. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI If at the time you felt you were justified in protecting the interests of the country why didn't you just use the word "ambush", that we set up an "ambush"? What was wrong with it? In the affidavit why didn't you use the word "ambush"? What was wrong with that because it was legal, it was justified. MR DEETLEFS I think that if we used the word "ambush" in the inquest that would have given off wrong connotations. MR NTHAI What wrong connotations, because you will explain that you were involved in a just war, you were going to explain not so? What connotations are you talking about? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson when one refers to an ambush one speaks of a war situation where one waits for someone and then what we refer to as a death anchor(?) where the opposition has absolutely no chance and that he be summarily killed. That is why we wanted to create the impression as we said in the statement that there was a supposed blue light and we were waiting for these people and according to the statement we said that we had the roadblock rules there and if we used the word "ambush" it would have an entirely different connotation to it and it could have jeopardised the post mortem inquest. MR NTHAI So which means clearly, that at the time when you were now fabricating lies in this affidavit for the purpose of the inquest you had doubt already in your mind that what you did was illegal. MR DEETLEFS Yes we know it was illegal because at that stage we knew what the circumstances were. MR NTHAI Another question. Did you make this affidavit or this affidavit was written for you by Mr Pienaar and you just signed? What happened? MR DEETLEFS I cannot recall any longer. If I can recall correctly I sat down and W/O Pienaar wrote it out and I signed it. I cannot imagine that he had written it first and I later signed. If my recollection is correct he wrote it out in my presence, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry, this is a typed affidavit, all of these affidavits are typed. They have clearly all been prepared. If one reads them they are all literally word-for-word but for a few different vantage differences. MR DEETLEFS What we usually did Chairperson is one would write it out and the investigative official would go out and type it and you check it with what was said originally and you sign it, and I think that is what happened in this case. MR NTHAI Did I hear you say that normally you write it out, did you write it out this one in particular? MR DEETLEFS No I said usually the investigative official would write it out. He had an interview with you, he writes it out, he has it typed and then he gives it back to you to be signed. MR NTHAI Then will I be correct to say that the lies that are contained in this affidavit are not your lies, they are Mr Pienaar's lies, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson it would be my lies along with W/O Pienaar's. I think we worked together on this statement, but this is what I told him and as we had agreed that it what we would write down and it was written down as such. MR NTHAI Obviously in your position you heard about the abduction of Sidebe, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS It is correct. MR NTHAI You were also given written reports about what he was telling his interrogators, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI What did he tell them, do you recall? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, with respect, what is the relevance at this stage of Mr Sidebe detention? There is an amnesty application pending, which will be heard by this Committee, unless my learned friend can indicate to the honourable Committee what the relevance is with regard to this question. MR LAX There is lots of relevance Mr Prinsloo. If a man was interrogated for information some of that information may well have been relevant to this matter. It was canvassed yesterday. There was no objection yesterday by you on this matter. MR PRINSLOO With respect Mr Chairman Mr Deetlefs, none of my clients gave evidence yesterday, and I would just like to ascertain what the relevance is. MR LAX Well the relevance is quite plain. Isn't it self-evident? If Sidebe was interrogated and your client knew about it there may have been information about things he was involved in that were relevant to this operation. MR PRINSLOO Inasfar as that is concerned I will leave it at that Mr Chairman, thank you. MR NTHAI Were you informed, were you given reports about what Mr Sidebe told his interrogators? You heard, by the way Mr Sidebe was a very - Mr de Kock said yesterday he treated him with respect, he was a very high ranking official of the ANC and as such you will be interested in what - he is not like Maseko, he is not like Dladla, you were interested in what he was saying, so you did get reports. Did you read those reports? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI What information, what information did he give? I am asking you this question because it is not very clear from Mr de Kock as to where the information that these people would be coming on that day came from - whether it came from Dladla, whether it came from Maseko, whether it came from Sithole. What information did Sidebe give? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson if I may put it as follows. Over a period of detention he provided much information to us regarding ANC structures, persons and so forth. But to get to Mr Nthai's point, this specific information regarding this incident, the incident was on the same evening after Sidebe had been abducted. In other words Sidebe was abducted on the evening or the night of the 13th and this incident took place on the evening of the 14th. On the morning of the 14th I personally was consistently involved with Glory Sidebe. At no stage did he provide any information to us pertaining to this incident. He was quite clearly not aware of it, or at that stage it was a few hours after his abduction, he was not co-operating, but he definitely did not give us any information. This information came clearly from Sithole. MR NTHAI He did not even give you information about who planted the bombs at, the ones that injured the tractor driver and a schoolboy? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson no, I don't even think that at that stage we put it to him specifically because it was shortly after his abduction. We did not question him about it. And in either event at that stage Dladla and Maseko were already in detention and we knew that they were responsible for those deeds. It wasn't necessary to involve Sidebe in this. MR NTHAI Mr Chairman I just want the witness to be shown the sketch, the sketch that was drawn by Mr de Kock and I just want to know whether he agrees that more-or-less he agrees that this was the position of the vehicle. MR LAX Are you referring to Exhibit B? MR DEETLEFS I have it. MR NTHAI Mr de Kock has indicated there by means of seconds, that is on the ...(indistinct) side, and he has indicated that more-or-less that is the place where you, the group was hiding, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI And he has indicated that more-or-less that would have been the position of the vehicle, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI And he has also put a dot there on the side of the vehicle which he indicates that that is where the driver fell after he was shot. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson yes, I see it here. My recollection is that I would place the person further back. He was past the back of the vehicle. In other words if we look at the sketch I would say approximately a centimetre to the right, according to the scale of the sketch diagonally opposite the back rear point of the vehicle. MR NTHAI So on that aspect you disagree with Mr de Kock? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAX Mr Deetlefs can I just clarify that, just for my own benefit. Are you saying that on your version, on this little diagram of Exhibit B, the figure of the man lying there should be in the same line but a centimetre beyond the end of the vehicle? MR DEETLEFS To the right, ja, to the right, yes to the back of the vehicle, yes. MR LAX Yes, okay, thank you. But the same distance away from the side of the vehicle, roughly? MR DEETLEFS Ja that's speculating but roughly ja, I would say so Sir. MR NTHAI Were you informed before, either by Mr Pienaar or Mr de Kock as to where - you see the arrangement with Mr Sithole was that he was supposed to stop here and go and - he would pretend as if he was going to urinate, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI Were you informed, were you informed where he was supposed to go and urinate? Was he supposed to cross the road and go the other side, or was he supposed to go behind the vehicle and come to the side where you were, what was the agreement? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson as I understood it they told him that he had to jump out and then run to the right. In other words past the bakkie in the same direction as what he has done here, so that in the event of a shooting to get him out of the line of fire. I don't know exactly what the conversation was between him and Mr Pienaar, but those were the basic words, that he had to run to the back to the right. MR NTHAI But if that was the case that would be totally inconsistent with the plan, not so? Because then the other people with him would realise that there is something wrong, is that correct? Is that not correct? CHAIRPERSON That is exactly what is shown on the plan. He did run to the right. MR NTHAI Mr Chairman I am not sure whether Mr Chairman understands the point I am trying to pursue. The point I am pursuing is that if indeed what the witness is saying it's correct that he jumped and ran that would be inconsistent with the plan because then the people in the bakkie would then realise that there is something wrong immediately. My understanding was that he was supposed to come out of the bakkie normally and walk to go and urinate at the agree place, Mr Chairman. I don't know whether I am out of the way Mr Chairman. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson yes, I cannot say precisely what the agreement was, I can only testify according to what I saw, because when the bakkie stopped he jumped out very quickly. I don't know whether it was ever discussed with him at what speed he should disembark from the vehicle, that is why he must have used his own judgment. MR NTHAI Mr Deetlefs you also say so that he should be out of the line of shooting. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that would be my view as I have said. As I had it it was never put to the informer that shots would be fired. He was under the impression that arrests would take place. So what exactly the explanation was which was given to him as to why he should run in that direction could possibly be explained by Mr Pienaar, the reason why he had to run to the right to the back. MR NTHAI You are saying that the impression that he was given that he should be out of the line of shooting but ...(intervention) MR DEETLEFS Yes that would be the normal case. One would tell someone to make sure that they would get out of the line of fire. I don't know whether Mr Pienaar put this to the informer that if an arrest was to be conducted there may be a shooting. The impression they gave him was that an arrest would be carried out. MR NTHAI Let's leave the issue of the driver for a moment. According to that sketch, according to Mr de Kock there were other people on the other side of the road. There was a slope, according to him, which is a high ground, and there was another group that was there. MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson, my recollection is that all of us were on the same side of the road, in other words where these points are indicated on the left side of the road all of us lay there in a line. MR NTHAI Why would all of you be all on one side? MR DEETLEFS If I recall correctly we examined all the possibilities and if there was a group of persons on the other side of the road, and a shooting ensued, we would have been directly in line with each other and either group would have been in the line of fire of the other. So that is why we decided ultimately to lay in one line all together. Because it was also the arrangement that the bakkie would in either event stop where we were. MR NTHAI And I mean you confirmed that Mr de Kock at the time was in charge of this operation? MR DEETLEFS Yes, for the operational aspect. MR NTHAI Yes, so I mean he was the one who was going to give the order of shooting and stuff like that. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI And he would know the details of planning better than you do, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS For this sort of action, yes. MR NTHAI Why will you dispute his evidence that there were other people that he placed the other side? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson that wasn't about the plan, it was about what I saw. If Mr de Kock had a different perspective then we will have to hear from the other persons who still need to testify. Perhaps then we will get to the truth. I can only say what I saw and according to my observation we were all in one line. Mr de Kock sees another group of people on the opposite side of the road. This is about recollection and my recollection is that all of us lay in one line. MR NTHAI Now how many people do you recall that were involved in this operation, in this group, how many people were there? MR DEETLEFS At the bakkie itself as I have said, there was Eugene Fourie, me, Mr de Kock, Mr Pienaar, Mr Greyling, Mr Labuschagne, Mr Botha. I cannot recall whether there were other Vlakplaas members who were at this scene or whether they were at the other scene with van Dyk. These are the members that I can recall. I cannot recall precisely where the others were. MR NTHAI So according to you there were eight people, not so? MR DEETLEFS Eight, there may have been one or two other Vlakplaas members as well. I cannot recall everybody but that would be the approximate number of persons. MR NTHAI Okay. Now where you were ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry I get six people, where do you get eight from? CHAIRPERSON My note is seven. He says Fourie, himself, de Kock, Pienaar, Greyling, Labuschagne and Botha. MR NTHAI Ja, I may have made a mistake, I was trying to count as he was talking Mr Chairman. It could have been seven. I want to come back to where you were hiding. How far were you from the vehicle? In other words how far were you from where you were hiding and where the vehicle came to a standstill? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson it stopped where we were. Now at night it would be difficult to estimate but I would say approximately two to three metres possibly. MR NTHAI So according to you the driver, Sithole, was shot by the people on your side, not by the people on the other side, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS No, as I have it, I did not see it, but as I would have it, it would have been the person on the extreme right, from the back of the vehicle. There were no other persons on the other side of the road. MR NTHAI Now I just want you to help us here. Your legal representative has brought a photo of the bakkie. What happened to the photos that were taken of the bodies themselves? MR DEETLEFS I assume that it must have been admitted with the PMI. I cannot comment on that, I don't know what happened to that eventually. It would have been submitted with the post mortem inquest, normally. MR NTHAI Now since Mr Pienaar was the one who was initially investigating the matter he would have handled those photos in preparation of the inquest. MR DEETLEFS Yes he would have. MR NTHAI Do you know whether there were photos or not? MR DEETLEFS I cannot recall. Mr Pienaar would have to testify about that, I cannot recall whether there was a photographer there. MR NTHAI If you go to that picture of the bakkie just immediately after the door there you see there are quite a number of bullet holes there, do you see that? MR DEETLEFS Yes I see this. MR NTHAI It appears that even the windows there on the side of the canopy were also shattered. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI Now from what you are saying, from what your evidence is, is that the way you were actually positioned, the most likelihood is that your shots landed there, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Me personally? MR NTHAI Ja, yours, the ones that you were firing. MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR NTHAI And you say you only fired two shots? MR DEETLEFS No I never said two shots ...(intervention) MR NTHAI How many, how many ...(intervention) MR DEETLEFS I said two-two after each other, so I would estimate about six to eight shots. I cannot recall any longer. MR NTHAI Did you check after the shooting how many you shot? MR DEETLEFS Yes I assume so, I cannot recall, but we had to make a report to the officers who visited the scene who had to compile the shooting report. Usually we would have to report to these officers how many shots were fired. MR NTHAI Yes. You didn't happen to see that report thereafter after it was compiled? MR DEETLEFS No I did not see it. MR NTHAI You also mentioned, when you were giving evidence, that various attacks, including the Sasol attacks ...(intervention) MR DEETLEFS Yes Chairperson there were various incidents. MR NTHAI Do you still recollect as to when was the Sasol attack? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson no, I think there were two or three, or three attacks and these were during various years. I think one was in '81 and there was another one in '84, '85. I cannot recall anymore but it was during the early eighties. MR NTHAI I want to bring you now to the question of the killing of Shadrack Sithole. It was not very clear to me yesterday when Mr de Kock was giving evidence as to why Shadrack was killed. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson it was about the following. This man, in my opinion, had not really been recruited as an informer. This was the first time that he conveyed information. We didn't know whether we could trust him or not, and I knew that if under these circumstances he were to escape there would be no reasonable explanation that he could offer to the ANC as to how he succeeded in escaping. And the conclusion was simply that he would definitely have been detained for interrogation, and then our activities would have been exposed. He had identified some of our members. He could identify some of our members who could later act in Swaziland. He could identify these persons to the ANC which would lead to traps for our own members. This could have impeded our activities in Swaziland completely. So he definitely presented a risk to us. Furthermore, and I have stated this, perhaps I could just qualify, I don't wish to waste the Committee's time with regard to Dlamini, but a few months before the incident, among others, we dealt with Knox Dlamini under the same circumstances. We knew that he was a collaborator and that he was transferring persons. I apprehended him at the border post, he was brought to my office and I also put it to him that we were aware of his activities and I went as far, among others, as buying him a beer and I had a photo taken of the two of us together. I had him sign a receipt for money which he would have received, and I led him to understand that if he returned to Swaziland and continued with his activities without informing us I would take this photo and the receipt and make it end up in ANC hands so that they would be able to eliminate him. Later we met again in Swaziland. But with first meeting because I didn't trust him I had him under observation and we determined that one Musi Mbatha, who was an MK cache(?) had dropped him off the rendezvous point and picked him up again after the meeting and I realised immediately that this man presented a clear and present danger to me and I didn't know whether I would walk into a trap with any further meeting with him, therefore I broke off all contact with him. That is why I was thoroughly aware that one couldn't simply trust such a person after one incident of information which was conveyed, and that is why I believed that Sithole could return and sell us out. Therefore I had no other idea than his elimination because he could only cause damage for us at a later stage. MR NTHAI From what - that's very interesting what you are telling us now. From what you are saying is that Knox Dlamini at least you gave him some time, you observed him until you were satisfied that he cannot be trusted, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS No, it wasn't time, it was just with the meeting. When he made an appointment with me at a rendezvous point, because I didn't trust him at that particular stage I had him observed, and then it was determined that he had been dropped off by an ANC MK member, so there was no lengthy period of observation as such. MR NTHAI But Shadrack was never given - he was never observed, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS No there wasn't any opportunity for that. MR NTHAI This meeting that you had with Knox, when was that? MR DEETLEFS I cannot recall precisely, it was several months before this incident. It was during 1985 I think, but some time before this incident. MR NTHAI And between 11985 and since you met him, were you having contact with him? MR DEETLEFS With Knox? MR NTHAI With Knox, yes. MR DEETLEFS After the incident where I broke off contact with him I didn't have any further contact with him because I knew that he posed a danger. MR NTHAI We were informed that he was the one who dropped the people that were ultimately killed on the Swaziland side. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI You were not aware that he would be amongst the people who would drop those people? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson if I recall correctly we knew indeed that he would be dropping the persons off, but we didn't know who would accompany these persons over the fence. MR NTHAI And will I be correct then to say that according to what you are explaining you were not linking Shadrack Sithole to the bombs that were going on around there, not at all? The only reason that led you to agree with his killing was that you were afraid he would betray you, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson he was a member of the group which had come through. He associated himself with persons who were bringing weapons and explosives over the border. So it wasn't merely about the question that he could betray us but because he was also a member of the ANC MK group and he associated himself with their ideas. In other words he was also a member of our enemy at that stage. MR NTHAI Was he a member of the ANC? MR DEETLEFS I cannot comment whether he was a recorded member of the ANC, but in my opinion if you were a collaborator and if you assisted them with their activities you were a member of the ANC and that was all that there was to know about it. MR NTHAI Now just - I don't want to go into details about what my learned friend was putting about the version, your version that would differ from the version of Labuschagne, I don't want to go into details about that, the version that you are giving now to us here, is that not a version that you fabricated as you did when you fabricated the affidavit for the inquest? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson, definitely not. MR NTHAI At some point you mentioned that it would be against your nature - there was a question if there was a child, would you have killed a child in the bakkie and you said that would be against your nature to kill a child, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. It is speculative Chairperson but I am sure that any person wouldn't be able to shoot an innocent child just like that. It would have been completely against my nature. MR NTHAI Is it in your nature to fabricate lies and put them in the affidavit for the purpose of inquest, is that in your nature? MR DEETLEFS No it is not my nature but at that stage we lived under unnatural circumstances and one would make certain adjustments in order to justify one's actions. We regarded it in that light that all is fair in love and war. MR NTHAI You were afraid of prosecution by then, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI That is why you fabricated lies, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI Now you know that your application may be refused here, are you aware of that? MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MR NTHAI If your application is refused what will happen to you? MR DEETLEFS Well then it would be free to the prosecuting authorities to initiate a prosecution. MR NTHAI So you may be prosecuted? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR NTHAI So there is a danger even here, not so? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson as I have it the evidence which I have delivered here is not applicable to later prosecution. If it were to happen that I be charged it would be in the hands of my legal advisors. MR NTHAI But you may also fabricate facts so that you should not be prosecuted, is that not correct? Create an impression that you are giving full disclosure, is that not correct? MR DEETLEFS No, not during these proceedings. MR NTHAI But if you have done it before what would prevent you from doing it now? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson we are working with an amnesty process here which has been established in order to achieve reconciliation and it is under that understanding that we have applied in the first instance. If I was not prepared to make a full disclosure here I could just as well have remained silent and taken the chance of being prosecuted or not. But I preferred to disclose the truth and that is the reason why I am here today. MR NTHAI You know I am going to argue that you did not disclose the truth, what are you going to say to that? MR DEETLEFS That is your good right. MR NTHAI And I am also going to argue that the killing of Shadrack Sithole was definitely out of ill-will and spite. It had nothing to do with what was going on. MR DEETLEFS No that is definitely not the case, but once again you are entitled to your own opinion. MR NTHAI I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTHAI CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Mr Deetlefs how many ambushes were you involved in with Mr de Kock? MR DEETLEFS It was two. MS LOCKHAT Was that the Piet Retief incident ...(intervention) MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct, the one that has already been heard before the Committee. MS LOCKHAT Is the general definition and part of the definition of an ambush to eliminate and kill? MR DEETLEFS That is my interpretation, yes. MS LOCKHAT Because I can remember Mr de Kock also stating at the Piet Retief hearing that that was the definition, to eliminate and kill. MR DEETLEFS In my vocabulary if we refer to an ambush, because I was trained as such, if one refers to an ambush one refers to an ambush and not of arrest. MS LOCKHAT So the other members that were part of you in this group would you say that their definition of an ambush would also be to eliminate and kill? MR DEETLEFS I cannot reason on their behalf but I do believe that most of them did receive counter-insurgency training and I think the same interpretation would be applicable. MS LOCKHAT Mr Fourie stated that you had this planning meeting in Piet Retief. MR DEETLEFS No, I don't know of that. The entire planning took place on a premises outside Piet Retief. I did not go to the offices at Piet Retief that day and that late planning did not take place at the Security Branch offices. MS LOCKHAT Because he says you were present at the Security Branch in Piet Retief, with Mr de Kock himself, Freek Pienaar, Douw Willemse, Lappies Labuschagne, and that's on page 104 of the bundle, bundle 1 Chairperson, at paragraph 7. He says you were also there. MR DEETLEFS No that is definitely not so. At that stage I was still busy with Mr Glory Sidebe and that was at an entirely other premises. MS LOCKHAT So did you - were you part of any planning session with any of the members ...(intervention) MR DEETLEFS Yes the planning before this action along with Mr de Kock and Mr Pienaar, but this did not take place at the Security offices, it took place at these other premises. That is where the other members were also informed about this operation. MS LOCKHAT So you say Mr Fourie is mistaken then? MR DEETLEFS I think he has confused the premises. CHAIRPERSON So that one can ask him about it, can you describe the premises better than merely saying they were outside Piet Retief? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson it was on a farm. It was a secure premises as we called it at that stage, in other words a house that was rented under false pretences by the Security Branch but usually the owner did not know what we used the premises for. But this was to protect informers. Instead of taking persons to the Security Branch offices one would meet with them at these premises so it would appear more clandestine. And I don't know if you want me to describe exactly where it was, and if my information is correct it's approximately five kilometres ...(intervention) MR LAX Just a general idea for my benefit. MR DEETLEFS It's approximately five kilometres outside the town in the direction of Amsterdam. MS LOCKHAT Tell me who was your commander at the time? MR DEETLEFS At that stage it was Brigadier Visser. MS LOCKHAT Did you inform your commander of this incident? MR DEETLEFS After the incident, yes. MS LOCKHAT Informing him that it was an ambush? MR DEETLEFS No, Chairperson, I did not. What I conveyed to him and the telex that I sent to head office had the facts as it appeared in the inquest, namely that the person had jumped out of the vehicle with a firearm and so forth and so forth. The real facts were not conveyed to him. MS LOCKHAT Why didn't you convey the real facts to him? Were you acting outside your mandate? MR DEETLEFS No, but I also did not want him, because I realised that our action was not entirely within the ambit of the law and if I informed him that we had acted illegally then he would have been an accomplice and I did not want to do that. Secondly, if I informed him and even head office of the real facts they could have turned around and lodged a complete investigation which could have been to our detriment. That is why I did not give him the full facts. MS LOCKHAT And Mr de Kock was under your control at that time? MR DEETLEFS No, no, Mr de Kock was from Vlakplaas, we were of equal rank. MS LOCKHAT You were of equal rank. MR DEETLEFS Yes. CHAIRPERSON But when he was operating, as I understand it, in the area that you were the commander of, then he was under you. MR DEETLEFS Yes, under those circumstances, yes Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson. Did you inform Brigadier Schoon, who was his commander at the time, of this incident? MR DEETLEFS No, my line was to my commander at Middelburg and him, on his behalf, would then go to head office. MS LOCKHAT And then Mr Fourie was from C2. MR DEETLEFS Yes that is correct. MS LOCKHAT And who was his commander at that time? MR DEETLEFS At head office I think at that stage it was Colonel Naude, but while he was at Piet Retief it was also the instance that he would serve under W/O Pienaar, and then directly thereafter under my command while he was in the Eastern Transvaal. MS LOCKHAT And it wasn't necessary for you to report to his commander of any acts or incidents that he was involved in at the time that he was under your command? MR DEETLEFS No, through my channel it would automatically get to his commander but my line of command was to my head office and that was Middelburg and from there they went to head office. MS LOCKHAT And just one last question in relation to Vusimusi Sindane, after he was arrested, this is after the incident, he was taken to a camp, do you know which camp he was taken to first? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson as far as I know he was taken to the counter-insurgency unit base, that is the counter-insurgency unit which was stationed along our borders and they had different places where they had bases and he was taken to their base and from there he was taken to Piet Retief Security Branch. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT ADV SIBANYONI Mr Deetlefs did you notice when de Kock placed an AK47 next to the driver? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson no, I cannot say with certainty because I concentrated on the people in front of me and I went and had a look at what was in front of the vehicle. I cannot recall the moment when he placed the weapon there. ADV SIBANYONI But at a later stage you noticed it? MR DEETLEFS Yes, there was definitely a weapon afterwards. ADV SIBANYONI I would like to ask you about the amount of weaponry which was found in the bakkie, and my questioning you about that is my understanding was that the ANC was infiltrating weapons separately with people. In other words the people wouldn't carry such an amount of weaponry in the bakkie, at the back of the van, weapons would be infiltrated through DLBs created on the, on ...(indistinct), was that not the position? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson in many instances persons who came in intent on acts of terror came along with their weaponry or in other cases collaborators and other persons and supporters would bring the weapons through and hide it for later use. There was nothing abnormal about these circumstances here, about the supply in the back of the vehicle. This concurs with their actions from time to time. ADV SIBANYONI Was it not perhaps part of what we were told Stratcom to plant also these weapons? MR DEETLEFS No I can assure you no weapons were planted here. ADV SIBANYONI Now coming to the affidavit you said you remember Pienaar sitting with you taking the affidavit, but we have heard from Mr de Kock last week, in another incident, that in the past it used to happen that you will be requested to sign an affidavit which you were not part of drafting it. MR DEETLEFS It could have been, because for example in Mr de Kock's case he was in Pretoria and I was aware in certain instances that the person had just cleared out the facts with him telephonically and he would then draw up the statement and if the person passes there at some other point in time, he would just sign it. ADV SIBANYONI And it was usual for one police official to be appointed to draft affidavits for everybody who was involved in the incident? MR DEETLEFS No, it was not a rule, but usually the investigative official took all the statements himself, but if he could not arrive at all of it, it was up to him to incorporate someone to assist him with the taking of statements. ADV SIBANYONI My colleague, Mr Lax, asked you whether the Prosecutor or Magistrate wouldn't pick it up if the affidavit was sort of a cover-up - I would like to ask you further than that to say was it usual also maybe for District Surgeons, Doctors, to be part of the cover-up like it was alleged or said in the Steve Biko matter? MR DEETLEFS No, I don't have any knowledge, I am aware of the allegations in the Steve Biko incident, but I personally do not have any knowledge of any other matter, where the surgeon was involved in the cover-up. ADV SIBANYONI You are aware that those doctors who were involved in the Steve Biko matter were subpoenaed before the Disciplinary Committee of the Medical Council? MR DEETLEFS In the Biko matter? That is correct Chairperson. ADV SIBANYONI In this operation where there are no askaris, were there only police from Vlakplaas, Ermelo and Piet Retief, were you not assisted by askaris? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, as I understood it, Mr Nofomele, I cannot recall him, but as I understood from yesterday, he is also mentioned here, so I assume he was involved here somewhere, although I cannot recall him. That was Mr de Kock's prerogative as to which people he would use. ADV SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. MR LAX Thank you Chair. I have just checked all the affidavits of all the policemen that we have before us, it relates to the inquest, they were all signed on the 15th and 16th, so before anyone had a chance to disappear, everybody signed their affidavits and this matter was cleared up, is that right? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR LAX Did you all get together and discuss how you were going to say this story should go? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, yes. If I recall correctly, just after the incident we decided what we would say, for example that the man did indeed jump out with a firearm and so forth, and so forth, as it appears from the inquest docket, and we agreed that that would be the story. MR LAX The point I am making is you did it immediately the next day and the day after that? MR DEETLEFS I cannot say exactly when, but it was briefly after the incident. MR LAX Because this happened during the night of the 14th? MR DEETLEFS That is correct Chairperson. MR LAX Now with regard to Mr de Kock placing the AK47 with the driver, he didn't just place it there, before he could do that, he had to take the bags out of the back of the car, because he said that he took it from amongst that weaponry? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR LAX Didn't you see him doing that? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I cannot because as I said I was in front, busy with checking the front of the van. It is possible that I could have seen, but as I have said earlier, I cannot recall whether it was Mr de Kock or Mr Pienaar who placed the firearm there. Mr de Kock said it was him, so I assume it was him, but I cannot recall that I for sure saw that he placed the weapon there. I only recall that I did see the weapon. MR LAX Did you see all the other stuff being taken out of the back of the car? MR DEETLEFS No, I cannot recall. I must have been present, but I cannot recall what was specifically taken out. I know all of us inspected it and they secured the firearms and so forth, but I cannot recall exactly at which stage the things were taken out. MR LAX Didn't you help check and make sure that all that stuff was safe? MR DEETLEFS No, that was Col de Kock and Mr Pienaar's job. MR LAX Now, you were the commander of that area? MR DEETLEFS That is correct Chairperson, yes. MR LAX If this man had been promised R10 000-00, you would have had to make the arrangements to ensure that that money was obtained? MR DEETLEFS No, only at a later stage if application is made for such an amount, it would have to come through me. But if there was only a promise made to him, it is not necessarily that I would be aware of it. MR LAX And you bear no knowledge whatsoever that that was the arrangement made? MR DEETLEFS No, I cannot recall that it was ever mentioned to me, but it is possible. MR LAX Unfortunately I was just checking something else when Mr Lockhat asked you about the meetings, so I am going to traverse stuff that you may already have answered, and you will forgive me for that, but would you kindly just go over again for me, as best you can recall, what, how did the planning of this thing go as far as you are aware? Let's start right at the beginning, when did you first become aware that this operation was going to happen at all? MR DEETLEFS This was the 14th Chairperson, I cannot recall the time exactly, but it would have to be late afternoon, or afternoon in any case. If I may commence by saying that Sidebe was taken, was fetched the evening of the 13th and we arrived at these premises at Piet Retief the next morning. I spoke to Sidebe and at a stage I went to sleep because I had been on my feet for 36 hours and it was at that stage that Mr Pienaar and Mr de Kock drove and said and Mr Pienaar mentioned to me, that he had an appointment with this informer or that this informer had come to the RSA again. I was at the premises with Sidebe. MR LAX So they drove out to the farm where you were? MR DEETLEFS No, they were with me, I think telephonically he was informed from his office that this man wanted to speak to him, and from there, they drove, from the premises they went to see him. Where exactly they met with him, I don't know, but from those premises where we were with Sidebe, they drove away. Later that afternoon, they returned and then I was informed that this informer had information, had given information that that evening he would bring people through and that they had already identified the certain points with the informer and told him where he should stop, and then the planning was from there, where the stopper groups had to be placed. Mr van Dyk and his group, and that is where we did the planning amongst the three of us and we informed the other people later and told them what would happen. MR LAX You have spoken about stopper groups, you have used the plural term? Was that? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I think it is a term, one speaks of stopper groups, although it can only be one group. In most cases it is one group, but one refers to it as stopper groups, but if I recall correctly, then it did arise that at the T-junction from Nerston, one road continues straight through and connects with Lothair, and the other one turns left from the Amsterdam Road and that is where we were and I want to recollect that at some stage there was talk as to what would happen if this informer gets cold feet and he drives directly in the direction of Lothair with these people and I think there was talk that a third group, part of Mr van Dyk's group would lay alongside the road, who would inform us if the informer took the other road, instead of taking the road in our direction, but that was left in Mr van Dyk's hands to take the decision. MR LAX As far as you were aware, there was one stopper group, that was van Dyk's group? MR DEETLEFS Correct yes. MR LAX You see normally in an ambush you have two stopper groups, because what if the people drive straight through your ambush, you have another stopper group on the other side? MR DEETLEFS That is what usually, but in this case we didn't do it as such. MR LAX Well, why? MR DEETLEFS I think in the first instance, a lack of man power because one had to forward along the line, deploy more men and this could, because the whole idea of eliminating these people, would have been ruined, because it was the idea that the vehicle would come along that route and stop, but I don't think there was any talk that at any further point, another ambush would be set up. We would have just followed them and then used another tactic. MR LAX You see, what is very interesting in what you are saying is this, it is that you trusted this man would bring them to a stop at that point, you trusted it so much that you didn't even make another back-up plan to have another stopper group further away? MR DEETLEFS Yes, we trusted that he would stop there, but there is a difference between him indeed stopping there and whether at a later stage, he would sell us out again. MR LAX Well, you see that is what we find strange with respect. Here is a man who you didn't trust enough that you planned to kill him, and yet on the other hand you trusted him enough to believe that he would deliver these people to you at the place, so much so that you didn't even make contingencies? MR DEETLEFS As I have said from the one side, because Warrant Officer Pienaar spoke to the man and we trusted that he would indeed stop there, but if later, if he was willing so sacrifice these people, but that he could turn later and work against us and sell us out ... MR LAX We will deal with that later, I am coming to that. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you go on, my recollection and I could be hopelessly wrong here is that somebody spoke about having made arrangements that if they didn't stop, the police would drive them off the road? Is that not somewhere in this Bundle? MR DEETLEFS I cannot recall. CHAIRPERSON I may be wrong, I may have - I have been reading so many incidents lately, carry on. MR LAX I think we all suffer from the same melody sometimes. Just getting back ... MR ROSSOUW Sorry, Mr Chairman, I think you are referring to page 73, which is the application of Mr Bosch, there is mention to that effect, towards the end of that paragraph on page 73. CHAIRPERSON Yes. That is what I was thinking of "... the plan was that if the vehicle did not stop at any of the two points, they would continue and then the Security members would pursue them in a vehicle and force them to stop." That was part of the planning according to him. MR LAX Your comment on that? MR DEETLEFS That can probably be true, I do not recall it specifically, but because we did not put a stopper group there, that would have been our solution if they did not stop and we would then force them off the road. MR LAX Do you now recall that that might have been part of the plan? MR DEETLEFS It is possible, as I have said, I cannot recall it like that exactly, but it is entirely possible. MR LAX Let's move on to the question of this man selling you out, and the threat that he posed to you and the threat that he posed to your whole operation in Swaziland as you put it. Who had he come into contact with at this stage? MR DEETLEFS Are you asking whom he had been in contact with? MR LAX yes. MR DEETLEFS Well, he had contact with Paul Dikeledi and then the Transvaal Machinery. MR LAX Yes, but Paul Dikeledi wasn't your operation, I am talking about your operation. Which of your members had he come into contact with, Sithole? MR DEETLEFS As far as I know, Mr Pienaar and some of his persons, I cannot comment whom, but I know some of his members at the Piet Retief offices were also tasked with this person, Mr de Kock himself was present. Those are the people with whom he definitely could identify. MR LAX What was stopping you arresting the man and charging him with stuff you knew you were able to convict him of, in the same way you did with Mr Sindane? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, because in the first instance I don't believe where he came through with these people under these circumstances, it would be, we could shoot two people and then arrest him, then questions would emanate there, and before the time, everything was allegations that he had brought people through although we checked the vehicle but he based everything on information which was gleaned from collaborators, amongst others Dladla and Maseko, upon whom one could not depend to deliver evidence, so we did not have real evidence against him, and we also did not have enough to detain him according to Section 29, in my opinion there was no sufficient information to convince a Magistrate to authorise a Section 29 detention. MR LAX Please Mr Deetlefs, you had his car, it was full of explosives and weapons, what are you talking about? And you convicted Sindane who wasn't even found at the scene of the very same items, so what are you talking about you couldn't have prosecuted him? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I speak of the information we had before that. We refer to the bakkie incident, it would not have made any sense, we would then have had to arrest all of them or otherwise if we shot the other two persons and arrested only him, then he most probably would have placed the blame on those persons. He would have received a very light sentence and according to us, that would have not been just, so it made more sense to us ... MR LAX But you had the information, you had Sindane, you had him, you could have done anything? MR DEETLEFS Sindane was only arrested the day afterwards, we did not know what happened to him. MR LAX You see the fact that I am trying to point out to you is that killing him was not your only alternative. Surely you will concede that? MR DEETLEFS That is probably so at that stage, but now one can speculate about it, but at that stage, it seemed to be the only alternative. MR LAX I want to put it further to you and suggest to you that in fact this man wasn't untrustworthy as you are trying to make him out to be, he had been into Swaziland, he had come back, he had reported his movements, he then went back and then he delivers the goods. Surely that is a sign of how trustworthy he was? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I can really not on one occasion describe or regard this man as entirely trustworthy. He could have delivered once to mislead us and afterwards turn around, so I think one has to establish trust over a period of time, or he has to prove his trustworthiness over a period of time, specifically in the case of an informer. MR LAX The fact of the matter is though that you weren't prepared even to give him the chance, you just had him killed? MR DEETLEFS That was so Chairperson, I saw it as the only alternative at that stage, because he held a danger for us. MR LAX Now, de Kock and Pienaar came out to the farm, they told you about this proposed operation and the information, what planning did you sit down and do together? MR DEETLEFS We did the planning as we have sketched it here. MR LAX Listen, you are being very vague, I want you to try and tell us what planning you actually did. MR DEETLEFS It was about, at that stage, they informed me that they had already spoken to the informer and had established the point where the vehicle would stop as well as the point where the persons would meet with the bakkie, so the planning from there was only about where we would take up position, the group who was responsible for the bakkie, and where Mr van Dyk and his group would take up position, and then what would happen if the driver jumped out, which was decided that he would be shot and we then would, the moment the bakkie came to a stop, we would fire on the persons in the front of the bakkie. I don't know if there is ... MR LAX Well, that doesn't sound like planning to me, that simply sounds like they reported to you that this was their plan and you probably approved it? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, part of the planning had already been made where the informer was and I was not present. MR LAX Precisely. MR DEETLEFS And then they came and confirmed and conveyed it to me and we just discussed it furthermore. MR LAX And had they already decided what personnel should be used for this operation? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, yes, because there was a group of people there at that stage and I think a decision was taken to bring in some of the other Piet Retief people, but most of the persons were already at the premises there. MR LAX And they already had been informed what they were supposed to do? MR DEETLEFS Yes, before we departed yes, they were informed. MR LAX Were you present when they were informed? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR LAX That must have been an additional meeting after you approved the plan? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR LAX You then sat down with the rest of the guys and you told them "this is the plan, this is what we are going to do"? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON Were they already there for other reasons, nothing to do with the plan? MR DEETLEFS Yes Chairperson, because I think the fact that Sidebe was there, he was regarded as a prominent ANC person. I think most of them came out of curiosity, but everybody wanted to hear what he had to say and most of them were there, so for example afterwards, I cannot recall when Mr Fourie arrived there, whether he was at the Branch offices and when Mr Botha and the others from the Piet Retief Branch arrived there, but most of the persons were already on the premises. MR LAX And then one final thing, when did you arrange to draw all the weapons? MR DEETLEFS It was with the planning there, when Mr Pienaar returned, he arranged that we would bring weapons from the offices. MR LAX So the members would go back to that office and then draw the weapons? MR DEETLEFS I don't know whether everybody went back. I know for example my firearm was brought to me, I did not go to the offices, I don't know which firearms were brought to them and whether one person went there or whether a global went to fetch firearms there. MR LAX And then finally, the Vlakplaas people would have had their own weapons? MR DEETLEFS Yes, they had their own weapons, Chairperson. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I wanted to finish my questioning, but looking at the time, I think we better take the adjournment now. We will adjourn until two o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON ... incident occurred? MR DEETLEFS That is so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Another police vehicle was supposed to arrive on the scene with blue lights and make it all look very efficient and official? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And what you all said in your inquest affidavits were part and parcel of the cover-up that had been planned? MR DEETLEFS That is so. CHAIRPERSON Alright. The next one is about Sindane, do you know what injuries he had? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I am aware of one shot-wound that he had in the buttock, but I cannot recall any other injuries. There may have been one or two further injuries, but I can recall this specific injury in the buttock. CHAIRPERSON Because he says in his affidavit that he was shot in the right forearm, the left upper elbow, the right hip and through both thighs? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, no. I do not wish to argue, I just know of this one injury, but I know that during interrogation I referred him for medical treatment and I really cannot recall that he had incurred that many injuries, I cannot recall anything like that. CHAIRPERSON Did you take part in the questioning? MR DEETLEFS From to time, at a later stage. CHAIRPERSON Because he says he was assaulted severely? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, no. Apparently it was only during his arrest or just after his arrest, I only came to deal with him much later and in my presence, at that stage, he was not assaulted. CHAIRPERSON You are the person who referred him for medical treatment? MR DEETLEFS That is correct Chairperson. It may be that immediately after his arrest, he also received medical treatment in Piet Retief, but when I came to deal with him later at Ermelo, I also referred him to a Physician for medical treatment and as far as I can recall, in the Bethal prison, he also received ongoing medical treatment. CHAIRPERSON I think you said you were hiding near the road where this vehicle eventually stopped? MR DEETLEFS Yes, I don't know if I said that we were hiding, but I suppose it boils down to that, that on the side of the road, we were laying among the grass, so we were hiding. CHAIRPERSON And did you open fire from where you were laying? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did any of you had torches or any other sort of light? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson, I cannot recall anything like that. CHAIRPERSON Just bear with me for one moment. You cannot help us with how Sithole got shot, you just assume it was the person on the extreme right? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAX Just one small thing Mr Deetlefs, that I overlooked, you were sort of positioned as I understood it, third from the left, so to speak? MR DEETLEFS I was second from the left. MR LAX Second from the left? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAX You didn't see anyone get up and fire from the front of the car at the vehicle? MR DEETLEFS No, not from the front of the vehicle. Mr Fourie was next to me on the left, and he fired, but I didn't see someone firing from the front of the vehicle. MR LAX Nobody stood up and ran round and started firing through the front windscreen for example? MR DEETLEFS No, not that I saw or noticed. MR LAX And did anyone run round and fire from the back of the vehicle? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I didn't see anything like that, because my attention was fixed on the front for the passengers, so I don't know whether anyone further down in the row moved round to the back of the bakkie, I wouldn't be able to tell you. MR LAX Yes, thank you. ADV SIBANYONI Was this bakkie ever damaged on the right hand side? MR DEETLEFS No Chairperson, not as far as I can recall. There may have been exit holes, but as far as I am aware, from no point on the opposite side of the road, were any shots fired at the bakkie, and I am not aware of any damage which was incurred to the right side of the bakkie. ADV SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sorry, re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Deetlefs, in your evidence you referred and I think you may have confused the names, you put Mr de Kock in Mr van Dyk's place. You may have mistakenly said that he was the person who was at the border? MR DEETLEFS If I said that, then I was confused, it was Mr van Dyk who was at the border. MR PRINSLOO And then there was a question which was put by the honourable Committee member, Mr Lax, that you could have charged Mr Sithole as was the case with Mr Sindane. Now, if you had charged Mr Sithole who was a witness who led these persons into a death trap and witnessed the killing of these persons, what would the consequences have been of him giving evidence in court? MR DEETLEFS He could have testified against us, he could have exposed that there was a prior agreement which was reached with him to bring these persons through and that we had broken the agreement by charging him and as I have said, he could have distanced himself from the content of the bakkie and said that he was simply the one undertaking the transport work, which would have led to a much lighter sentence for him. That would have been the motivation. MR PRINSLOO Mr Sindane, he was a trained member of the ANC's MK? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Was his position different from that of Mr Sithole? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And in as far as it effects Mr Sindane, he was arrested by persons who were not attached to Security Branch? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. As I have it, he was arrested by the TIN Unit. MR PRINSLOO So he couldn't be eliminated because he was already known to other persons? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And he was only arrested on the following day? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO No further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED