amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-30 PRETORIA 10 FREDERICK JOHANNES PIENAAR https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53920&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991130pt.htm ON RESUMPTION MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar will be the next witness, Mr Chairman. His application appears at pages 227 and follows. FREDERICK JOHANNES PIENAAR (sworn states) MR LAX Thank you, he is sworn in Chairperson. You may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Pienaar, you are also an applicant in this matter pertaining to the Nerston incident as it is now known? MR PIENAAR Yes, I am. MR PRINSLOO And you have submitted an application which appears in Volume 1, page 227 to page 229, that is your formal application, and then the particular incident appears on page 230 to page 233? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And then from page 234 onwards up to and including page 241, your political motivation appears? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, during these events which took place on the 14th of August 1986, you were a member of the South African Police Security Branch, and you occupied the rank of Warrant Officer and you were stationed at Piet Retief? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And you had the role of Branch Commander? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, you were involved in the investigation into the matter of Maseko and Dladla? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And in as far as it effects this particular application, you handled this person known as Mr Sithole, who is also known during these proceedings as the informer? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, could you tell the honourable Committee how it came to be that you came into contact with Mr Sithole? MR PIENAAR Primarily due to information which Mr Dladla had provided to me during his interrogation regarding a vehicle which was used by himself, but also by other persons, for the transportation and entry of trained persons from the ANC as well as weaponry which was connected to sabotage in the RSA. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, during the investigation which you conducted with regard to Dladla and Maseko specifically, you obtained information as we have already heard from Mr Deetlefs, indicating that Dladla had travelled with this vehicle over the border at the border post? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And you confronted Dladla with this information? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And the specific vehicle which is relevant here, can be seen on Exhibit E which is before the Committee? MR PIENAAR That is correct, it was the same vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Exhibit E? MR PRINSLOO That is correct Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman. INTERPRETER I beg your pardon Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, how did you meet Mr Sithole, where did you see him? MR PIENAAR I am not entirely certain of the date. It was shortly before the shooting incident, a day or two, it may be three days, the Commander of the border post at Nerston contacted me and informed me that the vehicle that had been given up there, had to be monitored, that it was once again about to enter the RSA. I requested them to allow the vehicle into the RSA and to apprehend this vehicle some distance away from the border post and to detain this person for me there. They did so and once again contacted me, confirming that they had the person there with them, upon which - and I am not certain who travelled with me, I went to Nerston. Some distance before the border post, we found the bakkie as well as Mr Sithole. This was my first meeting with him, I did not know him personally before the time. After this I took him to the office, my office at Piet Retief. There I interrogated him, I put certain things to him which initially he denied but later indeed conceded to, and conceded that he had assisted the ANC in Swaziland. Furthermore there were threats, we made certain promises to him for his assistance, and he agreed with this. I allowed him to return to Nerston seeing as the gates closed at four o'clock at Nerston. I am not aware whether he went through immediately to Swaziland or whether he went elsewhere first. On the morning of the 14th, that would be the morning directly after the abduction of Sidebe, someone from my office contacted me and told me that there was somebody that wished to see me. I went to the office where I found Mr Sithole. He informed me that there were arrangements that on this particular evening he was to pick up persons at Nerston who were carrying weaponry. He wasn't entirely certain about the exact number of persons which would be infiltrating, but the arrangements had been made, and the arrangement was for him to pick them up. He had come through on that day earlier, to undertake the reconnaissance along the border before the infiltration was to take place. As far as I know, he did not return to Swaziland on the 14th again, he remained in the RSA. Mr de Kock and I, that I can recall, there may have been other persons as well, took this informer to Nerston where we arranged with him for a place where he would pick up the persons according to him. After that we also took him to a place on the Nerston/Amsterdam Road where he was supposed to stop under the pretence to his passengers, of needing to urinate after which an arrest would take place. He informed me that the persons were bringing weapons in and we also foresaw that these persons themselves may also possibly be armed. I told him that if he were to disembark under the pretence of needing to urinate, he should move quickly away from the vehicle, in the event of a shooting taking place. It was never said to him that a shooting would definitely take place. He understood it as such and undertook to cooperate. Colonel de Kock and I returned to Piet Retief. Some of the members were at the safehouse where Mr Sidebe was interrogated. I am not entirely certain of everyone who was present there at that particular stage. We told them about the plans which had been formulated thus far. It was also decided there that these persons who would be coming in, would be killed. It was also arranged by Col de Kock with Capt van Dyk to take a group of Vlakplaas members to the T-junction near the Nerston border post, this was not on the border, it was approximately three kilometres away from the border post. The arrangement was for them to wait there and to see whether or not the persons actually did cross the border and then possibly kill those persons accompanying the group. We did not know how many persons there would be accompanying the group. Furthermore, a person by the name of Dlamini had been mentioned by the informer, he would undertake the feedback to Swaziland. It was also arranged with van Dyk and the others to eliminate Dlamini in Swaziland. I know that at a certain stage Capt van Dyk voiced the objection that he wouldn't have known where the vehicle would be in Swaziland and furthermore he stated that they would possibly seize the person who performed the accompanying task and instruct him to show them where the vehicle in Swaziland, was waiting to pick him up again. The fact materialised, on that evening we went out to the point that we had arranged with the informer. We took up position on the southern side of the road, the other members moved to the T-junction. All of us were positioned on the same side of the road, there were no other persons on the opposite or northern side of the road. Later the vehicle indeed arrived, it stopped, the driver jumped out immediately and moved away from the vehicle. All of us opened fire on the vehicle, today I cannot say who opened fire first. At that stage of the shooting, it might have been during the shooting or just before, it appeared to me as if the left door of the vehicle was opening and a man wanted to disembark from there. The person was shot back into the vehicle. After the shooting was completed, we found two persons in the front of the vehicle, both were dead. Diagonally at the back of the vehicle, the driver, Mr Sithole also lay, he was also dead. And I know that before the departure to the point, the order was issued to Mr Labuschagne to shoot the driver. I don't know whether he did so or who the person was that shot him. He was at the back of the vehicle, I didn't look at that part of the scene. In the front of the vehicle, with the two deceased persons, the left deceased, who was closest to the door, between his legs on the floor of the vehicle, there was a makarov pistol. The gun was damaged due to a gunshot, I could not open it to render it safe, it was left as such. Between the two persons in the front of the vehicle, there was also an F1 handgrenade with a detonator. I managed to secure this. In the back of the vehicle, there was an assortment of weapons in rucksacks and also outside the rucksacks. Col de Kock took an AK47 from the back of the vehicle and placed it next to Mr Sithole's body in the event of someone passing by, or in the event of the arrival of someone from the TIN Unit or the Defence Force which was operating in that area. Afterwards Mr van Dyk - contacted and stated that they had shot a person at their point. Furthermore he informed us that another person had escaped. Mr Botha went to where Mr van Dyk and the others were and the body of the deceased who later appeared to be Mr Sandile, was brought to where we were at the bakkie. This body was also placed there. All the deceased were transported to Piet Retief by Mr Botha himself after an officer had visited the scene. I took the autopsy report under the order of Col Deetlefs, we worked out the statements, had them typed and as these persons once again arrived at the offices, I got them to sign the statements in preparation of the dossier. On the following day, which was the 15th, I cannot recall precisely at what time, the TIN Unit came from the farm Trafford which is approximately ten kilometres away from the Nerston border post, they contacted me and informed me that they had arrested a person near a house somewhere in the vicinity where he had asked for food and directions, they stated that this person was injured. I went to Stafford immediately, I was accompanied by Mr Botha, where I found Mr Sindane at the base. He was blindfolded and the objection which was raised about the blindfold was that they didn't want this person to know what was going on at the base, nor did they want him to see the number of persons who were working at the base. Mr Sindane had suffered gunshot wounds, I do not know precisely how many, he was still able to walk independently, these were not very serious gunshot injuries as far as I can recall. We took him back to Piet Retief and on the way to Piet Retief, I removed his blindfold and took him to our offices where there were some of the other members as well. He immediately received medical treatment for his injuries at Piet Retief and then arrangements were made to transfer him to Bethal, due to the fact that the Section 29 detention cells in Piet Retief at that stage, were full, due to the detention of Mr Maseko and Dladla. Then he was indeed transferred to Bethal where the investigation against him was concluded later on. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, Mr Sindane was later charged in the Regional Court in Ermelo? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And he was charged specifically for the weapons as it would appear in Exhibit A which has been served before the Committee? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, these weapons which appear on Exhibit A, did you see and handle these weapons personally? MR PIENAAR Yes, I did, I was with Mr de Kock. MR PRINSLOO Were you involved in the investigation into the matter pertaining to Mr Sindane? MR PIENAAR I did take certain statements there, but the Investigating Officer there was actually Col Deetlefs, due to the fact that Bethal was situated closer to Ermelo and I dealt with the matters of Messrs Dladla and Maseko, as well as the interrogation of Mr Sidebe which all took place at Piet Retief. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, Mr Chairman, may I have sight of the original Exhibit A please, with your leave Mr Chairman, that is the photo's of the weapons. Mr Pienaar, if you study Exhibit A, the photo where the weapons appear, do you see the weapon you refer to, the pistol? MR PIENAAR I do see that Chairperson, it is on the extreme right on the photo, just below the magazines. MR PRINSLOO Is there anything wrong with that firearm? MR PIENAAR It is clear that this weapon had been damaged. MR PRINSLOO Which part had been damaged? MR PIENAAR The barrel, or I beg your pardon, the handle and the shifting mechanism. MR PRINSLOO Is this the firearm which you referred to which was in front of the van? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO As you see that pistol, could it have been damaged while it was laying on the floor of the vehicle? MR PIENAAR According to my judgement, no Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO What do you say, where would it have been damaged? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, I would say in a person's hand or possibly on the dashboard in front, where it could have been damaged, possibly on the seat if it was on the side of the door. CHAIRPERSON The butt is damaged, isn't it? MR PIENAAR Yes. CHAIRPERSON So he couldn't have been holding it? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, it could be, maybe his hand, I don't know exactly where the deceased had been hit, I am not certain. It is possible. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, during the shooting incident at the scene, did this happen very quickly, or what is the position? MR PIENAAR It happened extremely quickly Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Thereafter you dealt with the post mortem inquest and the statements which appear here, were drawn up by you and attested to? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And your own statement, is that the truth or not? MR PIENAAR There are certain parts of it which are true. MR PRINSLOO Would you briefly look at it, start with each paragraph. You refer to page 5 of the statement? MR PIENAAR Yes, page 5. MR PRINSLOO Volume 2? MR PIENAAR Paragraph 5, the observation service is not correct. MR PRINSLOO If I study paragraph 5 it says "... on Thursday, the 14th of August, because of information which we received, I went along with Capt de Kock and Deetlefs as well as other members of the Security Branch to undertake reconnaissance or observation." That is false? MR PIENAAR That is false, yes. MR PRINSLOO There was no observation? MR PIENAAR No. MR PRINSLOO And the other paragraph "... on our arrival on the Nerston road, I parked my vehicle next to the road while the other persons took up positions 20 metres from me." MR PIENAAR My vehicle was parked next to the road Chairperson, but it was quite a way into the plantation. That is false. MR PRINSLOO And paragraph 7 "... at approximately half past nine, I noticed a vehicle came from the direction of Nerston border post in the direction, going in the direction of Amsterdam, in the direction of my vehicle." MR PIENAAR It was in our direction. MR PRINSLOO "... I waited until the oncoming vehicle was 80 metres from my vehicle, before I switched on my vehicle and drove into the road." MR PIENAAR That is not true, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO "... I switched on my vehicle's headlights as well as a blue warning light which was mounted on the vehicle." MR PIENAAR That is not true Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO "... I immediately climbed out and indicated with a torch to the driver to stop." MR PIENAAR That is not true. MR PRINSLOO "... The vehicle stopped approximately 35 to 40 metres from my vehicle." Is that true? MR PIENAAR No. MR PRINSLOO "... I noticed that the driver of the vehicle climbed out." MR PIENAAR Yes, he did jump out after he stopped. MR PRINSLOO But not under these circumstances? MR PIENAAR No. MR PRINSLOO "... I immediately went closer and heard Capt de Kock shouting to someone to drop his weapon." MR PIENAAR No, that is not true. MR PRINSLOO "... I also noted that the driver of the vehicle had an AK47 in his hands." MR PIENAAR That is not true. MR PRINSLOO Paragraph 9 "... the black man did not listen to the command and Capt de Kock gave instruction to us to fire." Did it happen as such under those circumstances? MR PIENAAR No. MR PRINSLOO "... After fire was ceased and I arrived at the vehicle, I noted that there were two other black men in the front of the vehicle." MR PIENAAR Yes, that was so, there were two of them. MR PRINSLOO "... I immediately went to the driver of the vehicle, where he lay in the road next to the van." MR PIENAAR That is so. MR PRINSLOO Was he laying in the road? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR PRINSLOO "... and under his body there was an AK47." MR PIENAAR No, at that stage, it wasn't there. MR PRINSLOO "... I picked up the firearm and saw that the firearm was already cocked and that there was a round in the barrel." MR PIENAAR That was no so. MR PRINSLOO "... I secured the firearm." MR PIENAAR No, that was not true. MR PRINSLOO "... Mr de Kock found a passport, a travelling document in his pocket." MR PIENAAR Yes, there was a document. MR PRINSLOO Can you recall whether the name Shadrack was there? MR PIENAAR Yes, as far as I know, because he came through the border with it. MR PRINSLOO "... Thereafter I went to the van where two black men were in the front of the vehicle." MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO "... next to the person, left front of the vehicle, I found a Makarov pistol." MR PIENAAR It was laying by his feet, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO The firearm was of Russian origin? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO "... I checked the weapon and found that it was damaged during the shooting." MR PIENAAR Yes, that is so. MR PRINSLOO "... I could not open the chamber of the firearm." MR PIENAAR That is true. MR PRINSLOO "... under the body of the second black man who was laying behind the steering wheel (I beg your pardon for one moment Chairperson) underneath the body of the second black man, who lay behind the driving wheel, I found two handgrenades." MR PIENAAR It was one handgrenade Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO "... both these handgrenades had already had detonators and they were ready for use." MR PIENAAR It was only the one Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO "... I secured the handgrenades." MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO By the way, are you an Explosives Expert? MR PIENAAR Yes, I am Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO "... in the rear of the vehicle, in four rucksacks, I found the firearms." Do you agree with that? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is true. MR PRINSLOO All mentioned items from Russian origin? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO "... Warrant Officer Botha took the bodies to the mortuary at Piet Retief." MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO "... On the 15th of August, the arrested terrorist identified the body as Shadrack, the body to me, the driver." Can you recall who it was? MR PIENAAR It was Mr Sidebe. MR PRINSLOO "... He was identified as an ANC collaborator who smuggled in ANC trained terrorists and firearms into the RSA." MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO (No interpretation) MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO "... The left front passenger who was identified as Bernard, a trained member of the ANC." MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO "... The black man in the centre in front was identified as Tolman, a trained member of the ANC." MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, on page 232 of your application, there you said the driver jumped out immediately and ran around the back of the vehicle, while the one passenger jumped out of the left front door, with a pistol in his hand. MR PIENAAR It appeared as such to me, Chairperson, that the left door of the vehicle started opening, and a person was in the process of climbing out. Thereafter immediately he was fired upon and he fell back into the vehicle and it appeared as if there was an object. I said it was a pistol, an object was in his hand when he wanted to climb out. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, in so far it has regard to your application, or may I put it as follows - this post mortem inquest was informally completed? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR PRINSLOO Can you recall if any photo's of the corpses were taken? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, I know we took photo's of Mr Sandile for the purposes of identification, but I am not certain whether photo's were taken of the persons who were killed at the vehicle. I cannot recall it as such. MR PRINSLOO But during the autopsy, were any identifications done? MR PIENAAR I was not present Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Can you recall whether you had in your possession any photo's for purposes of submission at a post mortem inquest? MR PIENAAR Not that I can recall, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Can you recall in this vehicle, Exhibit E, if there were any entry bullet holes on the right hand side? MR PIENAAR At this stage I cannot recall, there may have been possibly. But I do not know how they got there, because there was no one on the right hand side of the road. MR PRINSLOO And on your version, on which side were you? MR PIENAAR I was on the left hand side of the vehicle. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, when you submitted this inquest to the Magistrate, did you know that the information entailed in this inquest is primarily false? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And it creates the impression that the persons there fired on you, or that you fired at the persons, or that you wanted to arrest them? MR PIENAAR That we wanted to arrest them and then from, out of self-defence, we killed these persons. MR PRINSLOO You personally, in Swaziland worked and managed sources and informants? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Did you give any money to Sithole beforehand? MR PIENAAR No, I did not. MR PRINSLOO Mr Sithole, according to your knowledge that you could determine, was he a Swazi citizen? MR PIENAAR Yes, he was. MR PRINSLOO He was a person who lived in Swaziland? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mention was made in one of the statements, you do not know what his career was? MR PIENAAR No, I do not. I know he had a piece of land that he used for agricultural purposes, but I don't know how large it was. MR PRINSLOO Do you have any information about Sidebe September as he is known before the shooting incident with regard to this infiltration? MR PIENAAR No Chairperson, not at all. MR PRINSLOO In this action that followed here, on this particular day, you were guilty of murder? MR PIENAAR Yes, I am. MR PRINSLOO Did you do it for own personal gain? MR PIENAAR No, I did not. MR PRINSLOO Did you do it out of personal vengeance against those persons? MR PIENAAR No. MR PRINSLOO Did you regard them as your enemy? MR PIENAAR Yes, I did. MR PRINSLOO Did you act in the execution of your duties, whether it be tacit or implicit? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Despite - besides the murder which you made yourself guilty of, did you realise that by submitting false facts, that you were committing perjury and obstructing the ends of justice? MR PIENAAR Yes, I did. MR PRINSLOO Do you then request the honourable Committee that amnesty be granted to you for the murders which were committed there as well as possible charges of perjury and defeating the ends of justice? MR PIENAAR Yes, I do. MR PRINSLOO As well as any other delict which might emanate from this? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Pienaar, you have already answered some of the questions that I wanted to ask you, maybe I should ask you just to elaborate. You said that you did know that Mr Sithole owned a piece of land where he farmed mealies or he planted mealies, is that what he told you? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is what he told me. MR HATTINGH Did you know whether he was married and whether he had off-spring? MR PIENAAR Yes, according to him he had a wife, and I did not ask him about any children. MR HATTINGH He was then a person who was established in Swaziland? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR HATTINGH And according to your information, had a set address? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH According to your experience, is this the person who would be suitable for use as an askari, would he be willing to leave everything there and to go and live at Vlakplaas and be of assistance with the identification of terrorists? MR PIENAAR If it depended on me, no Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did you know whether he was a member of the ANC? MR PIENAAR He was a collaborator and a supporter and in my eyes he was a member of the ANC. MR HATTINGH Did you know whether he had undergone any military training abroad? MR PIENAAR According to himself and information which we received later, he did not have training. MR HATTINGH With regard to the question of whether he had been involved in the ANC, maybe I should refer you to Bundle 2, page 73, that is the affidavit of Mr Dladla, paragraph 5 thereof. He said "... on Monday, 11 August 1986, I was still being held in detention at the Piet Retief police station. On this day I was taken from my cell and I was confronted with Shadrack Msolwa Sithole who was part of the ANC Swaziland operation." It would then appear as if this Mr Dladla regarded him as the Swazi ANC operation? MR PIENAAR That is possible Chairperson, but I may just add that I never took Mr Sithole to Mr Dladla, that would have been fatal, because they would have known that I had the person with me, and I wanted to recruit him as an informer. MR HATTINGH Very well then. On page 75 the statement of Mr Sindane, paragraph 2 "... I am a member of the African National Congress. In 1986 I worked for the ANC in Swaziland." And then paragraph 3 - "... I worked with Shadrack Msolwa Sithole, Mzwandile and others under the leadership of Paul Dikeledi who was the Commander of the Transvaal region of the ANC based in Swaziland." According to this it is clear that Mr Sithole was involved in the ANC? MR PIENAAR That is correct Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Very well then, you have already testified that you moved around much in Swaziland. Did you have any sources in Swaziland who supplied you about ANC activities within Swaziland? MR PIENAAR Yes, I had informers there. MR HATTINGH A few or many? MR PIENAAR I had a few Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Were they reliable? MR PIENAAR Yes, they were. MR HATTINGH According to your knowledge, were they established within ANC structures? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH So they gave you inside information? MR PIENAAR Yes, I would just like to mention furthermore that the Ermelo Branch of the Security Police actually handled the most sources or informers in Swaziland, that was Col Deetlefs and his staff there. MR HATTINGH The information which they obtained, was also brought to your attention, was that not so? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH So then may I say that the Security Police Eastern Transvaal had many informers who gave them information about ANC activities? MR PIENAAR Yes Chairperson. There were members of Soweto as well, who had sources in Swaziland and no guideline was laid down that they should not have it. Much information came from Swaziland. MR HATTINGH And because of this many informers that you had, you were up to speed with which of the ANC persons found themselves in Swaziland and what they did there? MR PIENAAR That is correct Chairperson. MR HATTINGH If Mr Sithole after the shooting incident, had been released, who do you think that the finger would have been pointing, who would have supplied the information about these infiltrations? MR PIENAAR Immediately to him. MR HATTINGH You were also involved in two similar shooting incidents close to the Piet Retief area, is that correct? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR HATTINGH These two incidents had already been heard by an Amnesty Committee in Durban, is that correct? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And you also applied there and you testified there? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Which of these incidents, the Nerston and the two Piet Retief incidents, occurred first? MR PIENAAR I think the Nerston one was the first one. MR HATTINGH And in the Piet Retief incident, you also received information from a source, is that correct? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR HATTINGH Also a person who was a member of the ANC? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And that person, we know that it was a female, she was responsible for the arrangement of transport for persons who were brought into the country? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH On the RSA side? MR PIENAAR Yes, on the RSA side. MR HATTINGH Was she your informer? MR PIENAAR No, her handler was Mr Theron. MR HATTINGH But she only made the arrangements for the transport, she did not accompany the persons who came into the country? MR PIENAAR No, she did not. MR HATTINGH She only supplied information about when and where they would enter the country? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And after the second incident, the shooting incident in which let us call it, both those incidents were also ambushes? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH In which you decided beforehand that the occupants of the vehicle would be killed? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And that is how it was done? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR HATTINGH And did you receive information as to what happened to this source of yours? MR PIENAAR She was abducted by the ANC to Zambia where she was detained for 13 months in a shipping container in the ground. She was raped several times according to her and was questioned and was abused before she was released later. MR HATTINGH So in that case the finger of suspicion was immediately pointed at her? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Do you know what information she supplied to the ANC during this interrogation? MR PIENAAR I don't know Chairperson. MR HATTINGH One of the persons, one of the applicants testified there that after her release from the ANC, he had contact with her, was it you? MR PIENAAR No, it was Mr Theron. MR HATTINGH And that she had supplied this information to Mr Theron? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Very well then. That informer, she would not have been able to tell the ANC who was involved in the ambushes, is that correct? MR PIENAAR No, she did not know. MR HATTINGH So she would not be able to finger any of the police officers? MR PIENAAR No. MR HATTINGH You say no money was paid to Mr Sithole before the incident, was money promised to him? MR PIENAAR Yes, there was a promise of money. MR HATTINGH What was the amount? MR PIENAAR If I recall correctly, it was R10 000-00. MR HATTINGH Was he willing to assist you for payment of this money? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH One of the questions which has been asked here today to a previous applicant was whether the firearms which we see on Exhibit A, the two photo's there, whether it had indeed been found in the vehicle or if it was just not planted there because of at Stratcom operation? MR PIENAAR No, it was definitely found in the vehicle. MR HATTINGH When you found it there, was it still in the four carry bags that we see in the photo's? MR PIENAAR Yes, it was still in there and if one goes to page 66 of Bundle 2, once again it is the statement of Mr Sindane, paragraph 8 thereof he says "... Mzwandile, Bernard, Tolman and I each carried a rucksack containing arms and ammunition." It is in other words four bags that he mentions there, not so? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR HATTINGH And four were found in the vehicle, is that correct? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH He says "... the exact details of which I cannot remember. I do remember that there was an AK47 rifle in one of the rucksacks. I carried a sub-machine gun for self-defence. The other three were not armed." And then in paragraph 10 he says - "... we loaded the rucksacks into the back of the bakkie and I then bid farewell to Sithole. He seemed unusually tense." There is confirmation of the fact that four carry sacks with firearms and ammunition were loaded into the van? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Could all these arms have fitted into these bags, or were some of them laying around loose, I refer to this RPG launcher, it doesn't appear from the photo if it would fit into one of the bags? MR PIENAAR No, it wouldn't. MR HATTINGH So some of it were outside the bags? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Mr Pienaar, then in so far as your version of what happened at the scene, differs from Mr de Kock, you have heard his version that no person climbed out of the vehicle on the left hand side, and immediately after the vehicle had stopped, he started firing. Is it possible that you may be mistaken, according to your version, that a person did not climb out or attempted to climb out? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, as far as I can recall, and imagine, a person tried to climb out. MR HATTINGH How far did he progress with this attempt? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, I would not be able to say that he climbed out outside the vehicle. He tried to, he was on his way climbing out, when the shooting ensued. MR HATTINGH Are you saying that he was on his - climbing out because you saw the door opening? MR PIENAAR That is correct, it happened so quickly, that one cannot exactly say how far he was out of the vehicle or whatever. MR HATTINGH You did not see any part of his body outside the vehicle? MR PIENAAR His hands were on the door, or his hand was on the door. I cannot specifically recall of any other part of his body. MR HATTINGH And then a further aspect please, the decision which you took that the infiltrators would be eliminated, was this only connected to the incident during which a tractor driver was injured or killed, I cannot recall, and where a young boy lost his leg, or were this attached to other incidents? MR PIENAAR There were many other incidents, Chairperson, specifically the tractor incident. The one tractor incident, there were actually two, in one, no one was injured, and in the other, persons were injured, and where this boy lost his leg, that was Mr Maseko and Dladla. They had already been arrested by then. MR HATTINGH And do I understand you correctly that the injury to the tractor driver and the explosion which led, was the tractor driver injured or killed? MR PIENAAR He was only injured Chairperson. MR HATTINGH That incident and the incident during which the young boy was injured, were those two separate incidents? MR PIENAAR Yes, they were separate incidents. MR HATTINGH Days apart or on the same day? MR PIENAAR No, it was apart. The one incident of the tractor where the person was injured, was the same day as the kid who lost his leg. MR HATTINGH But the tractor driver was not injured? MR PIENAAR That is correct, yes. As I have said, it was approximately, these farms were approximately five kilometres apart. In the Volksrust incident, the other tractor incident was at Breyton, as well as a vehicle incident where a person lost his leg. That was also at Breyton, it was also the same day that those two incidents happened. MR HATTINGH And your information was that it was the same cell, ANC activists, who were responsible for all these explosions? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR HATTINGH Not necessarily the same members all the time, but various combinations of members of that cell? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Pienaar, could I just take you back to the point where the bakkie stopped. I just want to understand your evidence correctly, do you say that you clearly saw the left front door of the bakkie opening? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Pienaar, can you recall whether this took place before the shooting ensued or afterwards? MR PIENAAR As I have stated, everything happened very quickly, I would have to speculate quite extensively as to whether or not it was a second before or a second after or during the shooting. Everything happened too quickly for me to recall. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. As I have understood your evidence in terms of what Mr Hattingh has put to you, the man had not yet disembarked from the vehicle? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS He was in the process of disembarking? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS In other words, could we accept that his leg had not yet reached the ground? MR PIENAAR No, not as far as I can recall, not at all. MR DU PLESSIS And as I understand you, or let me put it as such, what did you see in his hand? MR PIENAAR To me it seemed to be a firearm or a pistol. MR DU PLESSIS Because you testified that it appeared as if he had an object in his hand and then you stated a pistol in his hand, is that correct? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR DU PLESSIS In your amnesty application, you were quite certain that it was indeed a pistol? MR PIENAAR Yes, at that stage. MR DU PLESSIS Well, can you recall whether or not you saw a pistol in his hand? MR PIENAAR This is another one of those things. MR DU PLESSIS Or is it possible that you may have been mistaken? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is also possible, because everything happened so quickly. One would look and then open fire, everything happened very quickly. There wasn't enough time to identify every single thing at that stage. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. Mr Pienaar, I just want to put it to you that if he was seated on the left hand side, by nature of the situation, and if he had had a pistol in his hand, then in all probability if you had seen the pistol, it would have been in his left hand, and he would also have had to open the door with his left hand, so it appears quite improbable to me that you would have seen him opening the door and wielding a pistol in his left hand, at the same time. MR PIENAAR Yes, it is speculative. MR DU PLESSIS Very well, then we agree. Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me, I am nearly finished. If you look at Exhibit E, do you have it, that would be the photograph of the bakkie, do you see it? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR DU PLESSIS Do you see that there are various bullet marks on the left side of the left front door? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR DU PLESSIS In other words if we look at this, would you agree with me that that door in all probability had to have been closed when those bullets hit it? MR PIENAAR No, not necessarily. MR DU PLESSIS Then how do you say it could have happened differently? MR PIENAAR I never said that the door was completely open. MR DU PLESSIS Very well, then in other words do I understand you correctly, do you say that those bullet holes could still have been shot into the door if the door was only slightly ajar? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR ROSSOUW Rossouw, Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson. Mr Pienaar, can you recall at which stage and where the order was issued to Labuschagne to shoot the informer? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, if I can recall correctly, I think it was at the house where all of us were. That is as far as I can recall, I am not one hundred percent certain. That is as far as I can recall. MR LAMEY So you are not entirely certain? MR PIENAAR No, I am not completely certain of which stage it was. MR LAMEY Can you recall whether this was after a discussion between you and Capt Deetlefs and the then Capt de Kock? MR PIENAAR Yes, Capt Deetlefs and Capt de Kock and I never went aside and made any plans by ourselves. Things were handled quite openly before other persons who were also present. MR LAMEY You see because as I understand Mr Deetlefs' evidence, he was not at the Security office, but he understands that there was a discussion at the Security office and he was informed about it at the safehouse or at the place outside Piet Retief, and as I understand his evidence, a discussion then ensued pertaining to the driver and that is when the other members, who were also present, were informed? MR PIENAAR No, I think it was that Mr de Kock and I took the informer and there already began making plans and upon our return, we conveyed these plans to him with regard to what we thought about the whole story that far. There was never any real meeting or discussions which were held at the office itself as far as I can recall. MR LAMEY You see Mr Fourie recalls a discussion which took place at the Security offices and he states that at that stage from time to time, he had been at the safehouse, but he says that the discussion took place at the Security offices and at that stage, it came to his knowledge with regard to the shooting of the informer, now I want to ask you whether you can recall independently whether or not Mr Fourie was at the place outside Piet Retief, where this matter was discussed. MR PIENAAR I don't know whether he was there. I wasn't present during that discussion. I know that Mr Fourie was busy with identification which were conducted by Mr Dladla and Maseko, so I wouldn't be able to tell you precisely whether or not at that point, he was at the safehouse. I would have to guess. MR LAMEY Very well. And then Mr Fourie does not know and he does not deny it either, it is just beyond his field of knowledge, this is with regard to the meeting that you had with Sithole at Nerston, did you tell him that you brought him to the Security Branch offices? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR LAMEY Can I just tell you what Mr Fourie's recollection is, he saw this person for the first time at the Security offices? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR LAMEY And that is where a discussion took place with him, during which it came to Mr Fourie's knowledge that this man was transporting MK soldiers over the border? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is entirely possible. MR LAMEY Furthermore his recollection was with regard to that occasion that mention was made to him, that he had to bring people through? MR PIENAAR Yes, he said that there were orders, but he wasn't sure about the date upon which he would bring these persons through. MR LAMEY And then Mr Fourie also recalls that you also wanted to know from him how many persons there would be, what weapons they would have and as he understood, he had to obtain that further information and return with it? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY And upon that occasion as well, the first time that he saw him there, he also states that a reward was promised to him. MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY And his recollection is that he was then registered as some sort of an informer? MR PIENAAR No. He was never registered, no documentation was ever completed which would contain his particulars and so forth. MR LAMEY Very well, but his impression is that he was some new form of an informer? MR PIENAAR Yes, it was the first time that we had seen him upon that day. MR LAMEY The second time when he returned, he brought this further information? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR LAMEY And Mr Fourie's recollection is that he would bring three or four persons through? MR PIENAAR Yes, he wasn't certain of the precise number of persons, but he did mention three or four, it may also have been four or five, I am not completely certain, but he was not sure of the number of persons. MR LAMEY Very well. And that they would also have weapons on them? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR LAMEY And then Mr Fourie states that you mentioned to him at a particular point that you knew this person and that you knew that he had previously undertaken infiltrations, this is after he had been there for the first time, you stated this to him and furthermore you also stated - let me just find the specific place - that you didn't trust him completely. MR PIENAAR That is correct, because he told me, this is Mr Sithole, that he had previously transported persons into the Republic and also that he and the vehicle had been applied for landmine incidents and when the vehicle was not used by Mr Dladla. MR LAMEY Now what Mr Fourie also recalls is that the second time that he came, Mr Fourie was with you. He says that there was also another third person who was present, in his written application he states that he isn't certain, but that he would imagine that it may have been Mr Botha, however, he isn't certain and we will not put this to Mr Botha as a definite fact, but you and he and another person then went with Sithole to this place on the Nerston road? MR PIENAAR That is entirely possible Chairperson, I have stated in my evidence that Col de Kock and I travelled with him. There may have been another person who was present, but I am no longer certain, but it is entirely certain that he went with us. But Mr Botha was not present, it was Mr de Kock. MR LAMEY At which stage was this place where Paul van Dyk and the others were supposed to take up positions, identified and how did they know that they were supposed to go there? MR PIENAAR Mr van Dyk had previously a number of years before, been stationed at the Nerston border post, he knew the place very well, and by nature of his work, he also knew the vicinity very well. That is why he acted in this incident. MR LAMEY Whatever the case may be, Mr Fourie was present during this occasion and you went along to this place on the Nerston road, which you then showed to Sithole as the place where he was supposed to stop? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR LAMEY And Mr Fourie also states that Sithole didn't know definitely what the plan was? MR PIENAAR No, he did not. He did not know what the planning was. MR LAMEY But it is so that it was stated to him that a possible shooting could ensue? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct, that is why I told him to move away from the vehicle. MR LAMEY And what Mr Fourie also recalls is that Sithole was informed that the excuse for stopping would be that he needed to urinate? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR LAMEY And that he was supposed to disembark from the vehicle on the right side and move out to the right in a diagonal direction? MR PIENAAR Yes. He was the driver, so he would have to climb out on the right hand side and move away from the vehicle to the back. MR LAMEY You see this movement to the back, Mr Fourie doesn't have any recollection about this? MR PIENAAR That would be in the event of a shooting. MR LAMEY You see if he moved to the back, he would be moving on the road, and that was no place to be moving about, not on the road, one would have to move right over the road? MR PIENAAR Well, I didn't tell him where he was supposed to go and urinate. This was at night, and I suppose one could have stood anywhere. MR LAMEY But did you tell Sithole to move to the back? MR PIENAAR Yes, in the event of any problems arising or a shooting ensued. MR LAMEY Did you tell him to move away to the right of the vehicle to urinate? MR PIENAAR No, he could have gone anywhere that he wanted. I told him to move away to the back in the event of a shooting taking place, but he understood that an arrest would be conducted. MR LAMEY Very well, I am just putting it to you that Mr Fourie does not recall that the order was to move to the back. MR PIENAAR That was put to him. MR LAMEY Mr Fourie's recollection is that the instruction was to move to the right across the road. MR PIENAAR No, right would still have been in the line of fire, where the shooting was taking place. It would not have served any purpose to say this, he would have known that if there was a shooting, he would have been able to witness this. MR LAMEY Then at the scene, it is my instructions, that Mr Fourie, as Mr Deetlefs instructed, took up his position from where he would shoot and that this was part of a straight line which all the members formed, and that there were no other members on the other side, only on the one side of the road, in a single file? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY He was the first person at the front side of the bakkie? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is possible, I cannot recall precisely where everybody was. I cannot indicate everyone's position to the Committee today. MR LAMEY And then Mr Fourie also states that ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry before you go on, where were you? MR PIENAAR I don't know where I was in the line. After the vehicle stopped, the men opened fire and I assume that I moved up to the vehicle, but I cannot recall whether I was second, third or fourth in line, I am not completely certain. MR LAX Sorry Mr Lamey, just to follow up, you said you moved up to the vehicle? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR LAX What do you mean by that? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, we were in a line along the road, but the vehicle did not stop at the front near the mark where it was supposed to stop, and not everybody was in front of that mark. When the shooting ensued, all of us moved up to the front of the vehicle where the persons were then ultimately shot. Some of the persons remained behind, I think it was Mr Labuschagne and Mr Botha, if I recall correctly. They remained at the vehicle and Mr Labuschagne's order was then to shoot the driver. MR LAX Besides Labuschagne, did no one else stay at the back of the vehicle? MR PIENAAR I think Mr Botha was with him at the back of the vehicle, I am not entirely certain. As I have stated, I cannot recall the position of every person during this shooting. There may also have been other persons, but I am afraid that I cannot recall. MR LAX Because you were expecting more than just two people to be with Sithole? MR PIENAAR That is correct yes. MR LAX And the others would have presumably been in the back in the bakkie? MR PIENAAR And that is why shots were also fired into the back of the bakkie. Although we did not want this initially, because we were afraid of the explosives detonating due to the gunfire. MR LAX Thank you, sorry Mr Lamey. MR LAMEY Very well. Mr Fourie also states furthermore that he agrees that the driver or the informer then, was situated more to the back of the vehicle after he was shot? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY Then Mr Fourie states and I don't know whether you know anything about this, he states that to him it was strange that the person disembarked and moved to the back. He said that he subsequently heard someone said that he wanted to open the canopy, do you know anything about such a discussion? MR PIENAAR No, I don't know anything about that. MR LAMEY Very well. And then, did I understand your evidence correctly that the person who was shot dead at the other side, where the T-junction was, was he brought to the scene, his body? MR PIENAAR Yes, he was brought to the bakkie. MR LAMEY So ultimately there were four deceased at the scene? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR LAMEY But there was no one in the back, in the canopy? MR PIENAAR No. MR LAMEY Very well, my instructions are that although Mr Fourie was under that impression in his written application, in response to the other evidence here, he states that he will not dispute it, because he is not certain about that, and that it is possible that the fourth person that he has recalled at the scene, may have been confused with someone in the back of the bakkie? MR PIENAAR No, there was no one else in the back of the bakkie. MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMAWELE Thank you Mr Chair, just one question. Mr Pienaar, did Mr van Dyk tell you who shot that person at the T-junction? MR PIENAAR No, he did not tell me specifically who shot him, I think he told me that he himself shot him, I am not entirely certain, but I think so. MR RAMAWELE Mr Nofomele will say that Mr van Dyk never shot that person, he was actually, that person and the person who escaped was shot by Mr Nofomele and the other two white members who were with Mr Nofomele. MR PIENAAR That is possible Chairperson, I am not entirely certain. MR RAMAWELE That is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE MR LAMEY IN FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION Chairperson, I apologise, there is one aspect that I just want to put to Mr Pienaar, which I have just omitted. Mr Pienaar, Mr Fourie's recollection is also that Sithole, and that would be with regard to the discussion at the Security offices when he was there, stated that he had to transport these persons that he was bringing through to the East Rand? MR PIENAAR He did transport persons to the East Rand and with this particular case, if I recall correctly, he said that he had to take them to Johannesburg, but I don't know precisely where. MR LAMEY Somewhere on the Rand? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY And then just in conclusion, you confirm what Col Deetlefs has already testified to, that although Mr Fourie was at C2, while he was working in the area with photo identifications and so forth, pertaining to other ANC members who had been arrested, that he was under your command? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Pienaar, I have seen here in Mr Maseko's statement on page 71, paragraph 8 that Mr Maseko states that on the 11th of August 1986 at 20H00, he saw this relevant bakkie on Exhibit E, at the police station which was driven in by Mr Tina, a police officer? MR PIENAAR No, if it was the 11th upon which I saw it for the first time, it couldn't have been that late in the day, because as I said the border post gates at Nerston closed at four o'clock and he would have had to return to Swaziland before four. I did not have the bakkie at the police station. MS VAN DER WALT I also see that Mr Dladla states on page 74 something to a similar effect? MR PIENAAR No, that is not correct. MS VAN DER WALT And the police officer would not have been driving the bakkie at that stage? MR PIENAAR No, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Deetlefs gave evidence regarding the weapons which were withdrawn to eliminate these persons, was this at the Security Branch offices? MR PIENAAR Yes, it was in my office in the safe. MS VAN DER WALT And your office is how far from the police station? MR PIENAAR Approximately one and a half kilometres from the police station. MS VAN DER WALT So therefore it is not in the same building? MR PIENAAR No. MS VAN DER WALT Then I also want to refer you to Mr Maseko's affidavit on page 71, paragraph 12 where he says that when he was at the police station, he saw members of the Security Police who were supplied with weapons there. That can also not be correct? MR PIENAAR No, no member of the Security Branch drew any weapons from the police station itself. MS VAN DER WALT He also states specifically that there was someone by the name of Badenhorst? MR PIENAAR No, there was a Badenhorst with us Chairperson, but as I have stated, we did not draw weapons from the police themselves. MS VAN DER WALT Nothing further, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR LAX Sorry, just while we are on this point, was Badenhorst involved in this operation? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, I can recall that he was there. I took his statement for the PMI, so he was there. I cannot recall everybody, but I saw that he was there. MR LAX Is it not possible that he might have got weapons somewhere else? MR PIENAAR No Chairperson, we had our own weapons. He and I specifically had been issued with a personal set, apart from the weapons in the safe, one had one's own weapons as a person. MR LAX Yes, but I am talking about say the R1, that he would have used? MR PIENAAR He was issued with an R1, all of us were. MR LAX Do you remember which group Badenhorst was part of? MR PIENAAR With Mr van Dyk if I remember correctly. MR LAX Because it has just struck me that Mr de Kock's evidence was that those people had silenced weapons? MR PIENAAR I beg your pardon? MR LAX Those people had silenced weapons according to Mr de Kock? Those people didn't have normal issue weapons? MR PIENAAR I heard what he said yes. MR LAX He spoke about handguns and he spoke about HMCs? MR PIENAAR That is correct, yes. If Badenhorst was there, it is possible that he may have obtained a weapon from Vlakplaas members to be there. MR LAX Well, is it not possible that those weapons might have been kept in the safe in the charge office? MR PIENAAR No, we would not have obtained weapons fitted with silencers in the safe at the police station. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I take it from that that you wouldn't want the police station to know what you people were doing? MR PIENAAR No Chairperson. MR LAX Mr Nthai? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTHAI Mr Pienaar, is it normal that the ANC operatives if they were coming outside of the country, was it normal that they would carry things like RPG7s with them? MR PIENAAR It has happened previously yes Chairperson, not always. There were cases where they didn't have anything except for a pistol or a handgrenade. MR NTHAI Would you agree with me that in most cases, such kind of weapons would be buried somewhere in the DLBs, you agree with that, with your experience? MR PIENAAR Yes, it would be in a DLB that had already been established, yes. MR NTHAI So, this particular case where these arms were found with the RPG7s, it is an exception to what would happen normally, not so? MR PIENAAR No Chairperson, I have had instances where things were brought in, so I would not say that it was an exception. We have found RPG7s that had already been established in DLBs, that is so, yes. CHAIRPERSON But before they could be established in DLBs, they would have to be brought into the country, not so? MR PIENAAR That is entirely correct Chairperson. MR NTHAI And you did check, you did check this photo, these weapons that appear in the photo? MR PIENAAR Yes, I did check it along with Mr de Kock. MR NTHAI And you are quite certain that everything that was there, is here? MR PIENAAR Yes Chairperson. I have a suspicion that the one AK which was planted with the deceased Sithole, is not on this photo, because it was not part of according to our post mortem statements, it was not part of the load in the back of the van. MR NTHAI No, let's get something clear. Let's differentiate where you lie about the inquest and what actually happened. The AK47 that was placed next to the driver, was part of these things that were gotten in the bakkie, is that not so? MR PIENAAR That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON But later, as I understand it, the investigators, apart from you, arrived on the scene and they took the photograph of the weapons? MR PIENAAR That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They wouldn't have known nothing about the AK being taken out of the bakkie? MR PIENAAR No, they did not know of it. MR LAX Maybe you can explain for me in the light of that, sorry Mr Pienaar, maybe in the light of the answer you have just given to the Chairperson that the AK47 wasn't part of the load in the bakkie, why is the Makarov appearing then? MR PIENAAR This was because of the damage to the weapon there. MR LAX Yes, but the Makarov was in the possession of the one deceased? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR LAX And the AK was in possession of the other deceased? MR PIENAAR That is correct Chairperson. MR LAX So why aren't they all part of the same bundle then? MR PIENAAR The person or the driver of the vehicle jumped out and just moved away from the vehicle, and we said he had an AK in his hands, and he was shot there and that is why this firearm was ... MR LAX Yes, but you also said that the one passenger had a weapon in his hand? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR LAX And you found it right there? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR LAX And the same thing applied to the handgrenades that you said the other passenger had? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR LAX In his possession? MR PIENAAR They were still in the vehicle Chairperson, and that is why it was kept there. MR LAX But why are you then not differentiating between the load of weapons being brought in and the personal weapons each person had? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR LAX It just does not make sense to me. MR PIENAAR We mentioned it in the statements of the post mortem inquest, that this AK was found with the driver of the vehicle, that he had climbed out with that firearm and it was not at the back of the vehicle as was indeed the truth. MR LAX Yes, but you said the same thing about the weapons that were in the front of the car? MR PIENAAR Correct yes. MR LAX Why is the distinction drawn, it doesn't make sense to me? MR PIENAAR I cannot say why, but that is how I have it. CHAIRPERSON Was the driver photographed at the scene, laying there with the AK47? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, I think photo's were taken there, yes. I am not certain whether photo's were taken of all the bodies, I cannot recall. MR LAX Surely you would have taken or had photographs taken of the other deceased with the Makarov at his feet, the one with the handgrenades behind his body? MR PIENAAR That is entirely possible Chairperson, as I said I cannot recall exactly. MR LAX Because at that stage, you wouldn't have known that it was going to be an informal inquest? MR PIENAAR Exactly. MR LAX So you would have done the necessary forensic work? MR PIENAAR That is correct, yes. MR LAX Please carry on. MR NTHAI I still come back to that question that I asked, in your normal experience, the ANC operatives who were going to do the actual fighting, I am not talking about people who transport the arms, normally they wouldn't be carrying things like RPG7s, not so? There will be people who transport arms, there will be people who are going to do the actual fighting, is that not the case? MR PIENAAR There were various incidents Chairperson, as I have already said, there were no guidelines there. I cannot speak on behalf of the ANC, as I have said. We have already had incidents where people came in with various types of weapons. MR NTHAI I am not talking about the ANC, I am talking about your experience. If you rate them in terms of percentage, which cases did you find more, did you find cases where the fighters would be having things like RPG5s and a lot of ammunition with them, or you will have rate the ones that normally the people who are not involved in the fighting, would be the ones who were going to transport the firearms, in terms of your experience? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, I would say the incidents where the DLBs had already been established in the country, would be found were in the majority. MR NTHAI Is it also correct that it is part of the operation that the people who put the firearms, should not be known to the people who are going to do the actual fighting, is that not correct? MR PIENAAR No, there were various incidents where trained persons had established the DLBs, where they send a map back to the Commander or hand it over to him, and then other people come there and take it out again. It is so, but I would not say in all cases. MR NTHAI Now what other firearms are not on this photo which you can recall, which were there, except the AK47? MR PIENAAR All the firearms are there, Chairperson. MR NTHAI I am asking you ... CHAIRPERSON Before we go on, something struck me suddenly in the light of what my colleague asked you that I was under the impression that the firearm whose name I don't recollect, the one with the, the automatic weapon with the long thin barrel, long thin butt ... MR PIENAAR VZ25, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Hm? MR PIENAAR The VZ25 Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That that had been brought back from the shooting at the border? MR PIENAAR That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And it was not in the bakkie? MR PIENAAR That is correct Chairperson. MR NTHAI So this, okay maybe you will explain, this photo, where is this place? In other words where were these things assembled and the photo taken? MR PRINSLOO Could we have the original please Mr Chairman, Exhibit A? CHAIRPERSON It is quite clearly taken in an office somewhere, because the first photo with the carrier bags has a carpet under it? MR PIENAAR That would be the Security offices at Piet Retief Chairperson. It is in the office in Piet Retief. MR NTHAI While you are still holding that original, does it indicate when those photo's were taken? MR PIENAAR This was used in a case Chairperson, as far as I can recall ... MR PRINSLOO In the Ebrahim Maseko trial. MR PIENAAR In the Ebrahim Maseko matter, but I didn't have it. MR NTHAI Well, no, no is it not written there, that is why you've got the original, is it not written? Normally they will write, no, next to the photo's there, it is either at the back of the photo when the photo was taken or somewhere to assist whoever, the photographer has to do that? MR PIENAAR The key to the photo's is not in here. MR NTHAI It is not in there? MR PIENAAR No. MR NTHAI And that is not normal if it is going to be used for a trail, is that correct? MR PIENAAR Yes. I don't know where it is. MR NTHAI It is very strange that this document is supposed to have been used in such a high trial, not so? CHAIRPERSON I don't think you can say it was supposed to be used, it was used. MR NTHAI That is what I am saying. MR PIENAAR Much was made of these, copies of these photo's, Chairperson, because at a High Court trial, eight copies were needed, so the others might have had keys to it, I don't know. That should have been done. MR NTHAI Did you testify in that trial of Maseko? MR PIENAAR Of Maseko, yes, I did. MR NTHAI What were you testifying about? Well, did you testify about these firearms? MR PIENAAR Yes, where it was found, yes. MR NTHAI Did you testify, when you testify, you should remember that, when you testified, was there a key that was guiding you? MR PIENAAR Yes, I believe there was one, in the album that was there, I am sure of it. MR NTHAI MR PIENAAR I see that Chairperson. I would agree that the RPG7 launcher wouldn't have fitted into the bags, but Mr Sindane also says that "... arms and ammunition, the exact details of which I cannot remember," so he also had a vague memory as to what was in the bag. MR NTHAI Well, we were told that you were the one telling Mr Deetlefs about the detention of Mr Maseko and Dladla is that correct? MR PIENAAR As the questioning and the investigation continued, I regularly gave reports to him, as well as Head Office. MR NTHAI Was it in writing or it was both verbal and in writing? MR PIENAAR No, it was always typed when it was sent to the Regional Office, Col Deetlefs and from there, to Middelburg the Regional Office and from there to Head Office. There were certain instances where I contacted him telephonically, that might be possible. MR NTHAI Before the 11th of August, in other words before you came into contact with Mr Sithole who you have heard from Dladla and Maseko, you had already heard about the name of Paul Dikeledi, not so? MR PIENAAR Yes, I have. MR NTHAI So you had information about that, is that correct? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, Paul Dikeledi was a well-known ANC figure in Swaziland, he had been well known for a long time, it was not a matter of suddenly here was information about Paul. Regularly new information was obtained about him, but he had been known about for a long time. MR NTHAI What new information did they tell you which you did not know at the time? MR PIENAAR I said regularly new information came in as to where he was moving and what he was doing, what he was being connected to. It was a continuous report about persons in Swaziland Chairperson. MR NTHAI I am talking about Maseko and Dladla, what new information did they give you which you did not know at the time? MR PIENAAR Paul Dikeledi did not give me any information about Dladla and Maseko. MR NTHAI Dladla and Maseko you interrogated them? MR PIENAAR Yes, I did. MR NTHAI What new information you did not know at that stage, which they told you? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, what stage is now being referred to, information from whom? It is not quite clear. MR LAX Sorry there is a bit of confusion here. You are being asked about what information about Dikeledi did you get from Maseko and Dladla. Are you saying Maseko and Dladla or Maseko and Sindane? MR NTHAI No, Dladla and Maseko. MR LAX Dladla and Maseko? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, there was much information. I worked with Mr Dladla and Maseko for about four months or so with interrogation and pointings out and all those types of things, so the time period that they were with me, there was no new information. The information that they gave to me, were of the landmines which they had planted in the RSA under instruction of Mr Paul Dikeledi, all the arrangements he had made. These were all things that were said there, it was not a matter of suddenly there was brand new information now. MR NTHAI Did they give you any information about Glory Sidebe? MR PIENAAR Chairperson yes, during the identification which was actually done by Mr Fourie, there was information about Mr Sidebe but at that stage I had Mr Sidebe with me any way, but before that, it was usual information about where Sidebe was, where he was last seen and all those types of information. MR NTHAI Mr Pienaar, I just want you to confine you between for now, let's talk about June and July, Maseko and Dladla were arrested on the 21st of June, is that correct? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR NTHAI Let's confine ourselves there. Did they tell you about Sidebe during that time, before you had Sidebe with you any how? MR PIENAAR His name was probably mentioned Chairperson. My initial investigation, but the most important at that stage was that the landmine incidents in the Eastern Transvaal, and that is what I focused on. I do not believe that there was much talk about Mr Sidebe and whether information was given about him. MR NTHAI So his abduction did not arise from the interrogation of Maseko and Dladla, is that what you are saying? MR PIENAAR No, not at all. MR NTHAI Did you know about this plan to abduct him? MR PIENAAR I was present, yes. MR NTHAI And this plan came with de Kock? MR PIENAAR No Chairperson, Col de Kock did not formulate the plan to abduct Sidebe. In any case the matter will be heard before the Committee next week, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now I want to take you to the recruitment of the driver. I mean he was recruited as an informer, it is as simple as that, is that correct? MR PIENAAR That is correct, yes. MR NTHAI He was not threatened, he was recruited and promised money? MR PIENAAR He was also threatened, Chairperson. MR NTHAI So it was a combination of threats and promises? MR PIENAAR That is correct yes. MR NTHAI So it is not correct for Deetlefs to deny that he was promised some money? MR PIENAAR I don't know if Deetlefs knew about that. MR NTHAI So he heard about the threats from you? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR NTHAI Did you tell him about the promises for money? MR PIENAAR I could have and I could not have, I am not certain. MR NTHAI Well you were here, you were here this morning, not so? You were here, he didn't know about the money story? MR PIENAAR That is entirely possible yes. MR NTHAI Why didn't you tell him? MR PIENAAR I didn't have to tell him. It was an attempt to recruit this man, there were no costs attached to it, it was just a promise to the man, that did not render any damage to anything or anyone. MR NTHAI What do you mean there were no costs, you were going to pay him, not so? MR PIENAAR I would have, yes. MR NTHAI So what do you mean there were no costs? MR PIENAAR At that stage, there was only a promise to him, there were no costs at that stage. MR NTHAI But ultimately you were going to pay him, is that not correct? MR PIENAAR It could have been possible, yes. MR NTHAI And for an informer to be paid, he doesn't have to be registered, not correct? You can pay an unregistered informer? MR PIENAAR Yes, unregistered informers also received payment. MR NTHAI According to you, you interacted with him. Did he agree to work with you because of force that you, or because of threats that you directed against him, or it was because of the promise of money, a big sum of money, R10 000-00? MR PIENAAR I think it was a combination of the monetary gain and probably the fear itself. MR NTHAI What fear, what fear? This man you say was a Swazi citizen, what fear? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, he came to the RSA to do many things. We could have also informed the Swazi police of his activities, which would have made life very difficult for him thereafter. MR NTHAI What would they have done, the Swazi police? He committed no crime, what would they have done? MR PIENAAR He worked with the ANC in Swaziland. That would have created problems for him. MR NTHAI But it was not a crime that he worked with the ANC in Swaziland, not so? It is not a crime? MR PIENAAR No, but the transport of goods in Swaziland was indeed a crime. MR NTHAI This man, you told us he was established in Swaziland, he had a family, he had a piece of land which according to you, he was tendering or ploughing? MR PIENAAR That is correct yes. MR NTHAI If indeed he gave in to your threats, he could have just stayed in Swaziland and not come to South Africa any more, he had nothing to loose, not so? MR PIENAAR He could have probably Chairperson, but I think the monetary advantage prompted him to want to work. MR NTHAI It took you some time for you to agree that it was monetary, that that really prompted him, is that not correct? MR PIENAAR Please repeat that. MR NTHAI I say I have been asking you questions, it took you some time just to accept that it is the monetary part of it that ... MR PIENAAR I said that I think ... MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, I submit he did answer the question. MR LAX I am now puzzled, in that interaction, I couldn't hear the answer myself. Please would you just repeat the answer. MR PIENAAR On the last question? MR LAX Yes. MR PIENAAR I said that I think it could be possible that it was the monetary advantage that prompted him. MR NTHAI You are saying on the morning of the 14th, the driver, de Kock and yourself were together to go and pin-point this spot, is that correct? MR PIENAAR Where we showed the points to him, yes. MR NTHAI You drove to that place? MR PIENAAR That is correct, yes, to Nerston. MR NTHAI How far was it from where you were driving from? MR PIENAAR It is approximately 45 kilometres Chairperson, where we are from the border post. MR NTHAI And what kind of a vehicle were you using? MR PIENAAR I cannot recall whose vehicle we used. MR NTHAI But it was a private vehicle, you were all in the same car the three of you? MR PIENAAR Yes, yes. MR NTHAI And on the way you were conversing about this incident that is supposed to take place? MR PIENAAR That is correct yes. MR NTHAI And in the presence of Mr de Kock, Sithole did talk about these people who were supposed to come in, is that not correct? MR PIENAAR Correct yes. MR NTHAI And you are saying he was not sure as to how many people were going to come in? MR PIENAAR That is correct yes. MR NTHAI Was he sure that the people would be armed? MR PIENAAR That is correct yes. MR NTHAI Where did he get the information? MR PIENAAR I don't know. MR NTHAI When he told you, what did he tell you, what made him to believe that they would be armed? MR PIENAAR He said he was bringing in people and weapons, that was what the information was, but not how many persons, he was not certain about that. MR NTHAI So it is not correct for Mr de Kock to say that nothing was discussed during the time when you were transporting this person to show out the place, nothing was discussed about him bringing people? MR PIENAAR No, we did speak about it. MR NTHAI During your discussion did he inform you who was actually sending these people? MR PIENAAR MR NTHAI Now maybe you will help us here, there is something that is not very clear to us here as to you know, why was this man killed. MR PIENAAR It would have served no purpose to send Mr Sithole back to Swaziland after this operation. He could only have been a danger to us and no advantage. It could have caused an international scandal which the ANC back then, used, to say that now they have a man here, he was present where trained ANC persons were killed in cold-blood. It could have had international repercussions. He would have been a danger to us who worked in Swaziland, because the ANC would definitely have not believed him. Everybody shot, except for him, so this would not have gone down well with the ANC. That is my opinion Chairperson. MR NTHAI Mr Pienaar, when was the decision that the driver will also be killed, taken? MR PIENAAR That day of the 14th, after we took him to Nerston. Col de Kock returned and we dropped him off again and joined the other people. If the thing was realised, then he would also have been shot. CHAIRPERSON Was the decision taken after you dropped him off, before you dropped him off, when? You were asked when? MR PIENAAR No, after the time Chairperson. MR NTHAI At that time, were you not worried that the change of plan which did not involve the driver, may endanger the whole ambush plan, were you not worried about that? MR PIENAAR I don't understand the question. MR NTHAI This man did not know that he was going to be killed, is that correct? MR PIENAAR That is correct yes. MR NTHAI This man was under the impression that he was just supposed to according to you, jump out and go away so that people could be arrested, is that correct? MR PIENAAR That is correct yes. MR NTHAI Now when you and Mr de Kock changed the plan that he must also be killed, were you not worried that it may endanger the whole plan, because here is an extra person who is supposed to be killed? MR PIENAAR He was not aware of it. In other words Mr Sithole did not know that he was going to be shot. MR NTHAI Let me come back to that later, because I still cannot understand why he was killed. If you were afraid of the international repercussions as you were saying, in your opinion, right? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR NTHAI The ambush could have been planned the other way around, not so, you could have planned that these people could be dropped somewhere else and he disappears, he goes back and you use him again and ambush these people when he is not there, there wouldn't be any repercussions, not so? Is that not correct? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, I did not know where these persons were going to, so no arrangements could have been made that the person who would be picked up, would be dropped off in another place where one does not know where and he doesn't know certainly, so I cannot see that it would have made any difference there in any case. MR NTHAI Your plan had no regard about this driver who was going to help you, is that correct? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR NTHAI Is that what I am hearing from you? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR NTHAI I just want to come to the ... CHAIRPERSON How much longer do you think you are going to be? MR NTHAI Well, it will definitely be, I am still going to be longer. CHAIRPERSON So we should take the adjournment now, we have passed four. What time tomorrow morning gentlemen and lady? MS LOCKHAT Preferably half past nine, Chairperson, in order for us to get the Doctor ... CHAIRPERSON Oh, the doctors, yes, we want to start with the doctors tomorrow, we have agreed that already. Half past nine tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS