amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-12-07 PRETORIA 13 LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53925&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991207pt.htm LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Mr Flores you're an applicant for amnesty in this application and you filed a proper application with the TRC timeously, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You are also an applicant as envisaged in terms of Section 20 (ii)(b) and Section 20 (ii)(f) of the Act, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct. MR CORNELIUS You were also stationed at Vlakplaas, of which we have the full details before the Committee in various applications and you held the rank as a sergeant, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Bar a few aspects in your application which I want to clarify, you confirm that you were on the scene and you in fact shot the deceased MK Valdez, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS If we look at your application and we compare it to the other applications, we get the general idea that there was a chase that took place before he was arrested. Can you elaborate on this? CHAIRPERSON Is that from his or from the others? MR CORNELIUS From his application it seems like there was a chase Mr Chairman, thank you. Could you remember the time period of this chase? MR FLORES Yes, Mr Chairperson, I think I specified roughly round about 20 minutes. I could have made a mistake there. It could be between 5 to 6 minutes, not that long. MR CORNELIUS Because we gained the impression that the deceased left the back door of the house and then was apprehended. MR FLORES That's incorrect, Mr Chairperson. There was a chase set after the deceased at that stage for some period of time. MR CORNELIUS Can you shortly elaborate on this? MR FLORES As the deceased left the back of the house, a couple of us set foot after him Mr Chairperson. We then crossed two to three, numerous premises of other residential houses and at one stage as the deceased was climbing over a wall, I went after him and with my half body lying over the wall, noticed that there was no cover from the sides and that's when I fired a shot and hit him in the leg. MR CORNELIUS He was then apprehended? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR FLORES I was the first one there. Obviously I brought him down to the ground. By then, I couldn't say in time, Mr Chairperson but two of the Task Force members arrived and applied an intravenous drip to him and after the area was secured, they took him to a pick-up truck. MR CORNELIUS Could you see what was happening at the pick-up truck itself? MR FLORES Not at all, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS In conclusion of your application, you say on page 81 that he died due to the fact that the bullet snapped his main artery, was this a surmise that you came to? How did you get these facts? MR FLORES Just repeat. Excuse me, sorry. MR CORNELIUS How did you come to the fact that the artery, he bled to death as a result of the snapped artery? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, that's just a presumption I made, that it was a clean shot through the leg, it was bleeding quite profusely at that stage and it was just, I'm not a medical expert, but I just thought that could be the case as such. MR CORNELIUS And then you come to the presumption as well, that your personal belief was that his death was not due to the bullet wound. Can you elaborate on this? MR FLORES Yes, that was after the drip was applied Mr Chairperson and I think one can see when a victim' is traumatised or so and he basically walked to the vehicle, he was escorted to the vehicle, he wasn't carried to the vehicle or the pick-up truck and it was to me quite strange that if he was interrogated for 30 or 40 minutes, he must have been in good, sound mind and then suddenly died from result of the shot, that wasn't clear to me as such. MR CORNELIUS I see. You did not have any personal vengeance against the victim? MR FLORES Nothing whatsoever, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you benefit financially, personally, through a bonus or by your salary? MR FLORES Nothing whatsoever. MR CORNELIUS And you apply for amnesty for your complicity in this? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR HATTINGH No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR VAN DER MERWE I have no questions thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE MR LAMEY No questions, Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY MR KOOPEDI Perhaps just one question Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Mr Flores, you say he literally walked to the truck, should any one person suggest that he was carried, would this mean that this person is incorrect? MR FLORES That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Carried with a stretcher, or something of that sort? MR FLORES The time when he walked to the truck Mr Chairperson, there was no stretcher around. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI MS LOCKHAT I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT MR SIBANYONI No questions from me, Mr Chairperson. MR LAX Mr Flores, your recollection is that you crossed a number of properties in the chase? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR LAX And how did you do that? Did you jump fences, did you climb over walls, what was going on? MR FLORES The majority of them Mr Chairperson as I can recall, were plain 4 ft housing fences, I think there was one property that didn't even have a fence between the boundaries of different houses. MR LAX You see, when you shot this man, where was he? Was he on the ground? MR FLORES When I fired the shot at him? MR LAX Yes. MR FLORES He was busy still running away from us at that stage. MR LAX So he didn't fall off a wall and land on the ground? MR FLORES Not at all. MR LAX And you didn't have a huge fight with him when you tried to apprehend him? MR FLORES No, nothing whatsoever. MR LAX And you told us that he walked to the place where he was interrogated. MR FLORES Yes, once the drip was applied as I have stated Mr Chairperson, yes he was escorted. MR LAX You see because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Where was the drip applied, where you'd shot him? MR FLORES No, from there I'd say about 5 metres further on. CHAIRPERSON 5 metres from where you shot him? MR FLORES That's correct. CHAIRPERSON After this - that's where the drip was applied? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR LAX And was the drip applied to the leg or was it applied to the arms, can you recall any of that? MR FLORES To the arm. MR LAX To the arm. If I remember correctly, Mr de Kock spoke of two drips. MR FLORES That could be possible, I can't argue that, Mr Chairperson. After the area was secured safely and the drip was applied, I went back to my vehicle, I didn't stay around. MR LAX Right. You see, if one looks at the post-mortem which is Exhibit A, there are numerous abrasions on this person's body, what in Afrikaans is referred to as "skaaf wonde". You'll see that on page 2 and later on You don't know how he cam by those injuries? MR FLORES Definitely not when I subdued him, if that's the right word I'm using. MR LAX And not while you were chasing him either? MR FLORES It could have happened. At one stage he did go over a lot of rubble so that he struggled and fell to the ground then carried on, it could be that he either scratched himself. MR LAX Say that again, sorry. MR FLORES At one stage in the chase, I don't know if it was at the corner of a wall or a fence post, he did fall amongst some items like dustbins, I can't recall correctly, it could be a possibility, but not so many injuries that I see stated here. MR LAX And do you recall who was with you when you were chasing the man? MR FLORES One of the applicants who already testified was Mr Tait. There were one or two people from the Task Force, I can't recall names. MR LAX There was talk that a Mr van Dyk was present with you. He even thought he'd shot the man or claimed to have shot the man. MR FLORES That is correct. I know in the statements and evidence laid before you already Mr Chairperson, he stated that I was next to him, but at no circumstances was Mr van Dyk close to me, I never saw him. MR LAX So you have no recollection of him? MR FLORES Not at all. MR LAX Thanks Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So as I understand it, you shot this man and caught him. Two members of the Task Force arrived on the scene and about 5 to 6 metres away from where you had caught him, they applied a drip to him. MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Was there anyone else there? MR FLORES By that stage then some of the other members were arriving to the scene. CHAIRPERSON Was Mr de Kock there? MR FLORES At one stage yes, just before I left he did arrive at the scene. I think that's when Mr de Kock declared the area safe. CHAIRPERSON I recollected from his evidence that he saw the body of this man lying down outside the house, not when you chased him down the road. MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, the deceased, after I fired the shot and it hit him in the leg, it was in the property in the residential area, it wasn't in the road, it was at the house. CHAIRPERSON He wasn't at the house that he'd come out of. You had chased him across three other properties. MR FLORES Yes, he was definitely not by the house that he was chased... CHAIRPERSON Some distance away. MR FLORES That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Because Mr de Kock also said, and it wasn't challenged, that he asked the paramedics to apply a tourniquet and to give him intravenous blood and he was under guard in front of the house. MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, I don't know who gave the instructions to give a drip, it might have been Mr de Kock who gave the instructions, after he was notified that the person was shot. CHAIRPERSON This was in front of a house that they then entered and searched. MR FLORES I can't elaborate on anything of that kind, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And we've also heard from Mr Tait that he was standing in a plot at the back of a house with you. MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That a person escaped from the house, jumped over the wall onto your plot and when he saw you, tried to jump back again. MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, I don't recall such a - in my application this is the way I recollect the whole thing. CHAIRPERSON I'm putting to you Tait's version that he then tried to jump back again and you shot him. MR FLORES I don't intend to agree with that Mr Chairperson. MR LAX ...(indistinct - mike no on) CHAIRPERSON You said the wall was directly behind the house that you'd gone to, the boundary wall. You don't agree with this? MR LAX He said it was about a 6 ft wall. CHAIRPERSON It was about a 6 ft wall, you had to pull yourself up on the wall to see over it. MR FLORES That is correct because the deceased climbed the same wall which I pursued after him over the same wall. CHAIRPERSON But this was the wall immediately behind the house, according to Tait. MR FLORES No, it wasn't Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination? MR CORNELIUS I have no re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS MR CORNELIUS I think the next applicant is Mr Lamey's applicant.