amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-12-09 PRETORIA 14 EUGENE FOURIE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53929&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911151210_pre_991209pt.htm MR LAX Mr Fourie, your full names for the record please. MR FOURIE Eugene Fourie. EUGENE FOURIE (sworn states) MR LAX Sworn in Chairperson, you may sit down. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, may I just enquire, may Mr Labuschagne be excused? CHAIRPERSON No objection. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chair. EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson. Mr Fourie, you have applied for various incidents where you also as a member of the Security Police was involved, is that correct? MR FOURIE That is correct yes. MR LAMEY In the bundle in front of the Committee, there is an initial application that you yourself completed, it is in your handwriting? MR FOURIE Yes. MR LAMEY It begins on page 80 and the form section would be up to page 82? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY And on the 1st of December 1996 you signed it at Groblershoop? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY Then on page 83 and 84 there is a typed version, it seems as if it was done by the TRC, typed from your handwriting? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY And the further explanation we find on page 85 up unto page 88, is that correct? MR FOURIE Yes. MR LAMEY If we look at the typed version, it seems as if it was ... CHAIRPERSON 85 to 88 is what appears at 83 to 84, isn't it? MR LAMEY Yes, that is the typed version thereof Chairperson. If we look at the typed version, paragraph 6 on page 84, mention is made of this incident, is that correct? MR FOURIE Yes. MR LAMEY You were also a State witness in the de Kock case? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY And you have also appeared before this Committee concerning the Japie Maponya case? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY After you had obtained legal representation, is that correct, that supplementary statements were written where you signed it in 1998, is that correct? MR FOURIE Yes. MR LAMEY I am referring to page 84? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY Then on page 85 up to page 101, there is an overview of your ... MR LAX Sorry, are you talking about 95? MR LAMEY Yes, signed on page 94 Chairperson. MR LAX No, it just came over as 85. MR LAMEY Sorry, I apologise. From page 95 in the bundle, it is the overview of your background and training, you were also involved at that time in the conflict in South-West Africa before you joined C1? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY Is it correct that you were one of the earlier members of Vlakplaas? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY And you were there until you were transferred to Unit C2? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY Unit C2 is also a section of Head Office? MR FOURIE That is correct yes. MR LAMEY Can you just in short tell me what was the main tasks of C2? MR FOURIE Unit C2's function was the identification of terrorists by means of photographs and a photo album as well as the research of terrorism including APLA and MK. MR LAMEY During this incident, the Nersden shooting, were you then a member of C2? MR FOURIE That is correct yes. MR LAMEY Is it correct that you were under the command, I do not know what his rank was at that stage, Col Martin Naude? MR FOURIE That is correct yes, at Head Office, I was under Col Martin Naude. MR LAMEY Is it also so that after you were transferred to C2, you also sometimes when they needed the manpower, assisted C1 where you were before? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY Now, before this specific incident, is it true that you were working in Piet Retief? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY From C2, to Piet Retief? MR FOURIE That is correct, under the command of Freek Pienaar. MR LAMEY He was the Commander of Piet Retief Security Branch which was a sub Branch of the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch? MR FOURIE Yes, that is from Ermelo. MR LAMEY Is it correct that Col Deetlefts was the Commander of the Ermelo Branch at that stage? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY When you were working in Piet Retief, did you generally work with C2 related functions, namely assistance to the Branch with regard to photo albums, identifications and so forth when it came to terrorists? MR FOURIE Yes, I was busy with photo identifications, with two terrorists that had been captured and detained at Piet Retief. MR LAMEY Can you recall who they were? MR FOURIE I have heard there names here again, it was Dladla, the other was Maseko. MR LAMEY And you recalled during the hearing that these were the two persons that you interrogated whilst they were in detention with regard to photo identification, by the use of photo albums? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY If we just look further, the particulars of this matter can be found on page 101, there is a statement about it, up to and including page 115, is that correct? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY Mr Fourie, when you provided the further particulars in your amnesty application, as it is set out in these pages which I have just referred to, did you do so independently and did you have to rely on your independent recollection or did you enjoy the advantage or the opportunity of discussing it with any of the other applicants beforehand? MR FOURIE No, this was the first time after 12 years that I had once again been confronted with the incident. MR LAMEY Very well. MR LAX Just to help you there, it wasn't the first time, because you had already done so prior to that, in your amnesty application, where you at least thought about it. It may have been the first time that you did it in detail? MR FOURIE Yes Chairperson, it was the first time that a statement, the first time a statement was taken from me at Groblershoop and then a further more thorough statement was taken from me in 1998 by my legal representative, but I was alone both times. MR LAMEY If we can then just proceed to the run up to the incident, you refer to a person by the name of Shadrack Mopolopo in paragraph 2, who one day according to your recollection, arrived at the Security Branch offices? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY If we can just pause at the name, this name Shadrack Mopolopo, what is your ... MR LAX Sorry, just one second, it is not Mopolopo, it is Mopolopo. INTERPRETER Thank you. MR LAMEY Could you just discuss the name? MR FOURIE The day that I took the statement I recalled the name Shadrack, but why I linked the surname to him, is unknown to me, there was quite a well known person in Swaziland by the name of Shadrack Mopolopo, that is why I must have linked the name automatically, because I worked with so many different names. I couldn't really distinguish all the time. MR LAMEY The person who was the driver or the informer, was Shadrack Sithole? MR FOURIE Yes, I assume so. MR LAMEY Is it correct that - Mr Pienaar gave evidence here that he had previously known about the movements of Shadrack Sithole, pertaining to the transportation of persons into the country, did you know at that stage before you saw him at Security Branch offices? MR FOURIE No, I did not know. MR LAMEY Is it correct that it was there for the first time, that you heard that he was bringing persons in through the border? MR FOURIE After Shadrack had come to the Security offices and once again departed, I heard from Mr Pienaar that he was known to Mr Pienaar and that he had previously infiltrated terrorists into the RSA from Swaziland. MR LAMEY Very well, can we just pause at the point when he arrived there and you heard about this for the first time. Is it correct that you heard that he had to bring MK persons through across the border? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY The first that you heard, did you know at that stage, how many persons he would be infiltrating, was there any discussion in that regard? MR FOURIE There was a discussion with him at the Security Branch offices, in Pienaar's offices to the effect that he said that he had been contacted by the ANC to transport armed terrorists to the East Rand, but that he wasn't certain precisely how many persons these would be. He also wasn't certain about precisely whom would take them to the RSA border, furthermore he wasn't quite sure what sort of weaponry they would have and how much weaponry there would be in the vehicle, but it was tentatively stated in Swaziland that he had to assist with the transportation of these persons to the East Rand. MR LAMEY Very well, and were there any further statements to him by Mr Pienaar, in order to obtain any further information? MR FOURIE Mr Pienaar then asked him to return once again to Swaziland and then to find out more about how many people he was supposed to infiltrate, whether or not they would be armed, where precisely they were going, he was supposed to make an attempt to determine this information in Swaziland and then report back to the Piet Retief Security Branch. MR LAMEY Did you see him again after that? MR FOURIE I am not certain whether it was a day or two, three later, but I saw him again at the Piet Retief Security Branch. MR LAMEY Were you present when he provided further information? MR FOURIE Yes, I was present. MR LAMEY And did he then say how many persons he was supposed to infiltrate? MR FOURIE He wasn't certain either, he said that it would be three or four and that he knew that he had to take them to the East Rand, but he also stated that in Swaziland they weren't entirely certain how many persons would be infiltrating in the unit. MR LAMEY And the second time when he made these statements, did he give any indication of when he was supposed to infiltrate these persons? MR FOURIE As far as I can recall, he said that that very same evening still, he would have to infiltrate or transport these persons from the Swaziland border to the East Rand. MR LAMEY Was any mention made of a reward that would be paid to him for his information, in your presence? MR FOURIE Yes, he was told that he would receive a reward if he were to provide information to the Security Branch. MR LAMEY And what else happened that you can recall, after he had provided this further information that he was to bring these persons through and that they would be armed, what else happened? MR FOURIE As far as I can recall, Warrant Officer Pienaar, another person and I, I cannot recall this other person, it is possible that it may have been Col de Kock, I thought that it could have been Warrant Officer Botha, the three of us drove to a point along the Nersden/Amsterdam Road where we went to show him where he was supposed to stop that evening, when he had picked up the persons on the RSA border, he was to tell the persons that he needed to urinate and that he was suppose to stop at a certain point where we would be laying in position, and then we would act further once he had stopped. MR LAMEY Very well, did you tell him that an ambush would be set up and that the persons would be shot dead in the ambush? What I mean is, from the initial point they would be shot dead? MR FOURIE We told him that at that point, we would take up position, we being the Security Forces, and then he was to move away to the back, to the right back direction of the bakkie to urinate, and we explained to him that he had to understand that if these persons were armed, there may be a shooting and that we would ensure that he would be out of the line of fire, before we took action in shooting these persons dead. That is what we explained to him. We didn't tell him that we were not going to shoot these persons, or that we were going to shoot them. We told him that there may or may not be a shooting, depending on what would happen from the side of the terrorists. MR LAMEY Mr Fourie, was there any talk at that stage among you and Pienaar and possibly some of the other members, I mean underlying discussions, that he could be shot? MR FOURIE Not at that stage, Mr Pienaar said that he did not trust this person due to the fact that he had previously infiltrated persons and had not reported this, but it was never mentioned in my presence that he specifically would be shot dead because the informer was also present when we had discussions. But at no other stage in my presence was it specifically said that Shadrack would be shot dead. MR LAMEY Is it also so, this is on paragraph 5 on page 103, that there were Vlakplaas members who were working in the area at that stage? MR FOURIE That is correct, I know that there were Vlakplaas members in the vicinity at that stage with regard to the Nersden incident, but my memory has been refreshed here, and I recall that this was also at the same time that the Glory Sidebe incident took place. I had forgotten that when I compiled my statement, and that is the primary reason why Vlakplaas members were present in that environment. MR LAMEY Very well, and they were also involved in the operation with regard to the ambush? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY Did you know that there would be a group of members, you mentioned Paul van Dyk, you say Eugene de Kock but that you may be mistaken about that, Douw Willemse, Nofomela, that these persons would be involved in the operation? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY And then Col Deetlefts and Lappies Labuschagne you also mentioned? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY Very well. With regard, is it also correct that some of the members would also have been stationed at another point, at a so-called T-junction where the road from the Nersden border post turned off to Amsterdam? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY Is that the point where Shadrack would then be picking up the persons? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY You state here that the purpose with the presence of members at this point would be to determine the route that the MKs would be using and the guide that they would also be using? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY What did you mean when you mentioned the guide? MR FOURIE I understood that there would be a guide with the trained MK terrorists, who would infiltrate with them in order to point out the route to them because usually they would have just returned from Angola or Zambia and they wouldn't be very familiar with the routes. So they would make use of a guide, so that they could cross the border where a vehicle would be waiting to pick them up. But even Shadrack didn't know which guide would be used, or whether only a guide would be used or whether there would be someone accompanying the guide, we really didn't know what was going to happen that night. MR LAMEY Did you yourself know who the guide would be? MR FOURIE No, I didn't. MR LAMEY What did you understand would the members have to do with the guide there at the T-junction? MR FOURIE I understood that the guide would primarily have to be arrested, so that further information could be extracted from him, because the guide would usually accompany the armed terrorists to the vehicle and assist them in carrying their weapons especially if they had quite a lot of weapons on them, then he would return alone and unarmed to Swaziland, that is usually how things operated. I assumed on that evening, that the guide would have returned alone to Swaziland and that an attempt would have been made to arrest him so that further information could be obtained from him pertaining to infiltrations into the RSA, because during those years, the onslaught on the Republic was quite tremendous. MR LAMEY And before this incident, had you worked previously in Swaziland and had you had anything to do with the modus operandi when it came to infiltrations from Swaziland? MR FOURIE Yes, I had. I had worked in Swaziland and also conducted research on terrorism. MR LAMEY Then in paragraph 7 on page 104 you state that before the execution of the operation, according to your recollection, there was a planning session, which was conducted at the Security offices in Piet Retief? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY And that you were present there and that some of the other members were also present there, you stated that Col Deetlefts was there, but you have heard Col Deetlefts state that he was not at the Security Branch offices at that meeting itself, but that he was on the farm just outside Piet Retief? MR FOURIE I would concede to that, because I forgot about the Sidebe matter and that Sidebe was detained on a smallholding outside Piet Retief, and because I was busy with photo identifications of the two arrested terrorists, I simultaneously conducted photo identifications with Sidebe on the smallholding. I had forgotten completely about the Sidebe matter, due to the Nersden incident, that is why I thought that meeting took place at the Branch itself. MR LAX Sorry, are you conceding that the meeting could well have taken place on the farm? MR FOURIE Yes, it could have taken place on the farm. MR LAX Thank you. MR LAMEY Mr Fourie, what I want to ask you is, whether during your presence at a meeting or any meeting or any discussion, before you departed for the place where you were also a participant in the ambush operation, ever heard of a decision that the driver or the informer or Shadrack then, would also be eliminated? MR FOURIE No. I was never present at any such meeting. If I could just tell the Committee, during Col de Kock's evidence I heard that he said that he and Col Deetlefts had issued this instruction to Lappies, but I wasn't present when this took place. MR LAMEY Very well. Did you also receive a weapon and can you recall what sort of weapon this was? MR FOURIE Yes, I received an R1, 7,26mm firearm, a gun. MR LAMEY And you were then a member of the group which took up position next to the Nersden/Amsterdam Road? You state in paragraph 10 approximately 10 km's from the point where the other members were, you were there with that group and you took up position next to the road where you waited for the vehicle? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct, with the large group. MR LAMEY Could you just tell the Committee where did you take up position? MR FOURIE If we look Chairperson, at Exhibit B, the sketch of the vehicle and the road which was put together by Col de Kock. All of us were on the southerly side of the road, we were positioned in one single file, line. I was either on the extreme left or second from left, but as the dots end there on the left side, one could move two dots along, so I was positioned diagonally opposite the cabin of the bakkie. MR LAMEY If the bakkie stopped and you were on the left side, if one orientates oneself from the southerly side, you were either on the extreme left or second from the left in the line? MR FOURIE Yes. MR LAMEY On the western side, on the Amsterdam side of the road? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY And then where the bakkie stopped, its cabin section was diagonally to your right? MR FOURIE Yes. It came to a standstill to the eastern side of me. MR LAMEY Very well. Were any of the members positioned on the opposite side of the road as far as you can recall? MR FOURIE No. MR LAMEY Did you at any stage hear with regard to the driver, Shadrack Sithole, that he would also be shot? MR FOURIE At the scene itself, we arrived at the scene a reasonable time before the shooting itself, and we stood around there first before we formed the straight line, and that is when I heard from Lappies that he had been instructed that he was supposed to shoot the informer. He either said "I am going to shoot the informer" or "I have to shoot the informer", I cannot recall precisely what he said, but something to that effect, and that is when I heard that there had been another meeting or another plan and that I had not been present during such discussion, but that it was there that the decision was taken to kill the informer. MR LAMEY Very well, in this regard, can you say whether Mr Pienaar told you anything at any stage regarding Shadrack pertaining to his reliability? MR FOURIE Yes, Mr Pienaar told me that after the first meeting with Shadrack at the office, he told me that he didn't really trust Shadrack because when he heard the name Shadrack Sithole, it rang a bell in his mind, that he knew this name from somewhere and after he made enquiries, I don't know whether he had a file on him at the office, he said that this man had previously infiltrated to the RSA and had transported terrorists to the RSA, and that he was used by the ANC in Swaziland as a courier. MR LAMEY Did you know at that stage that Mr Labuschagne had worked particularly in Swaziland? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct, I knew that. MR LAMEY Did you think that he also would possess further information regarding Shadrack? MR FOURIE Well, he had testified that he didn't. MR LAMEY But the question is what you thought at that stage? MR FOURIE Yes, I believed so because Lappies and Col Deetlefts knew Swaziland very well and had dealt with many informers in Swaziland and for this reason I thought that he possessed more information about Shadrack. MR LAMEY Very well. But you then accepted that there had been an amendment to the arrangements or the plan with regard to Shadrack Sithole? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY At the scene after the bakkie had come to a standstill, can you briefly relate your recollection with regard to the observation that you had from your vantage point? MR FOURIE When the bakkie came to a standstill, diagonally to the right in front of me, and shots were fired, I fired directly at the cabin of the bakkie. MR LAMEY May I just ask you, where was the driver, Shadrack, at that stage? MR FOURIE Shadrack opened his door and climbed out and moved quickly to the right back, then the first shots were fired and I also opened fire. MR LAMEY So did you commence shooting after the first shots were fired? MR FOURIE When I heard the first shot being fired, I pulled my trigger and opened fire in the direction of the cabin. MR LAMEY Could you see what the position of Shadrack was when the first shots were fired? MR FOURIE No, I could not really see where he was, but I saw when he opened the door and got out and he turned right and immediately moved to the back of the vehicle. MR LAMEY This movement of his, the way you saw it from your vantage point, would you say there is a difference in what was discussed with him when you were present with him and Pienaar before the place that was indicated where he had to stop? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. I do not know if it was indicated where he had to stop, more than once, but I was with Warrant Officer Pienaar and Col Deetlefts, or Warrant Officer Botha, it was said to him that if he told the passengers that he had to go and urinate, he had to stop, get out and diagonally move across the road to get to safety, if a shooting would ensue. It was strange for me that that night when he stopped there, he got out and then directly turned right and moved alongside the bakkie to the back, and that was strange to me, because we did not discuss this, because then I thought maybe other arrangements were made with him where I was not present. MR LAX Sorry, you are going quite quickly and I am missing some of the stuff as I am trying to make my notes. Did I hear you correctly to say that he should have got out of the car and gone to your left? CHAIRPERSON No, diagonally across. MR FOURIE No. MR LAX Diagonally across where? MR FOURIE To the right hand side, across the road, that is how it was explained to him, then he would be in a safe place if shooting would ensue and if there were armed people in the bakkie, that was discussed in front of him. MR LAX And you are sure about that? MR FOURIE Yes, I am sure. He had to turn right to the back of the bakkie. MR LAX But go off at a diagonal? MR FOURIE Yes, at a diagonal angle. MR LAX Thank you. MR LAMEY Very well. Who did you fire at? MR FOURIE I fired mostly, or the whole time I fired at the front of the bakkie where there were two passengers and I emptied my whole magazine, 20 rounds. MR LAMEY Can I just ask you this one aspect, or let me put it this way, the question concerning the tracer bullets came to the fore in this evidence led here, do you know about it? MR FOURIE Yes, I do, from Ovamboland in the war situation, we also used tracer bullets. MR LAMEY If you think back today and independently we ask you, if you think of your recollection of it, what is your recollection concerning or can you remember if you had such rounds that evening? MR FOURIE Yes, definitely, it gives you an indication of the direction in which you are shooting. MR LAMEY Very well. Of previous experience, do you know if the Security Branches also had such rounds in their ammunition storage places? MR FOURIE Yes, it was common use. MR LAMEY Very well, then you mention in your statement, you say that, in paragraph 15, immediately after he opened the canopy, that is now the driver, "... I later heard that he moved", and then paragraph 21 you say, on page 109 if I can just jump in your statement concerning the specific aspect, you say - "... although I did not see that he was planning to open the canopy, I later heard that he wanted to do it or that he was supposed to do it." Was there such a discussion afterwards at the scene or do you have an independent recollection concerning this? MR FOURIE After the shooting, I did hear a discussion at the scene, but as far as I can remember those words were uttered after the Casspir vehicle arrived at the scene. I heard a discussion or the words, although I did not see it, but somebody did say that at the scene. MR LAMEY You also say in your statement ... (tape ends) ... then just to come back to the amount of people who were at the scene, who were shot at the scene, if we can just make another jump to page 110, you say "... I applied for amnesty for three unknown members of MK as well as the informer as well as the unknown guide, as well as conspiracy to murder to the forth MK member. It seems, Mr Fourie, that during the taking of this statement, you were under the impression that more people were shot in comparison with what we heard here? MR FOURIE That is correct, yes. MR LAMEY Also at one stage, you also mention in your statement, you thought that somebody was in the canopy section of the car? MR FOURIE Yes, I thought so when the statement was taken. MR LAMEY We also heard during this hearing, that some of the other applicants thought that there were two people with Shadrack in the vehicle? MR FOURIE Yes, a body was brought to the scene later on. MR LAMEY So in the end, there were then four bodies at the scene? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY What is your comment concerning what the evidence of the other witnesses or applicants, do you think that maybe you made a mistake or that you could not remember concerning the members that were shot at the scene? MR FOURIE I made the wrong assumption, I believe that there were only three people killed at our scene, but the fact they dropped another body at the scene, it confused me and I may have thought that there were four people in the bakkie, because there were four bodies. Because after the shooting, Col Deetlefts and myself went to the front of the bakkie and looked at the two bodies, where we found a pistol between one of them's legs, as well as a hand grenade. We first searched that part of the vehicle and then only later, went to the back of the bakkie, because we were laying at the front of the bakkie. I assumed that there were four people because there were four bodies, but as I heard now that a body was brought from the T-junction to our scene ... MR LAMEY Very well, and you do not have reason to dispute this? MR FOURIE No. MR LAMEY You already made mention of a hand weapon or a pistol that was found in the front cabin? MR FOURIE Yes, it was a pistol with an Eastern background. MR LAMEY If you talk about an Eastern background, can you remember the name? MR FOURIE It was a Makarov or a Tokarev. MR LAMEY Very well, and then you also say in paragraph 16 on page 117 that there were other weapons, for example a rocket launcher, a PG7 as well as AK47 and handgrenades in the back of the vehicle? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY And then you also heard that one of the people who were at the T-junction, who were shot at the T-junction, was wounded? MR FOURIE Yes, I heard this after the incident. MR LAMEY And that this person was arrested the following day, is that correct? MR FOURIE That is correct, yes. MR LAMEY You also mention in paragraph 18 that the person who was arrested the following day, was an MK member? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY It seems as if it was Mr Sandani? MR FOURIE That is correct yes. MR LAMEY You also say that this person was also detained then later at the Bethal prison? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR LAMEY Were you involved in the interrogation? MR FOURIE Yes. I was involved in the photo identification, we had a set of about 5 000 photographs that we went through after every arrest of a terrorist, where he identified all the photographs he could. Then he told us his history, when he left the country, where he got his training, where he last saw this person he identified, so we compiled information about the people of his movements outside of the country. MR LAMEY If you say that he was an MK member, how do you know that? MR FOURIE Was this now Sandani? MR LAMEY Yes, the person that you interrogated? MR FOURIE Well, he said that he was trained outside of the country in Angola or in Russia or in Eastern Germany, but he had undergone training besides in Angola ... (transcriber's own interpretation) MR LAMEY Did he mention that he had further training? MR FOURIE Yes, military training outside of the country. MR LAMEY Did you assault him at any stage during the interrogation? MR FOURIE No, I did not. MR LAMEY Did he give his co-operation? MR FOURIE Yes, he gave his full co-operation. MR LAMEY Then further in your statement, do you confirm that this is what your conclusion was concerning Shadrack Mopolopo, is that correct? MR FOURIE That is correct, yes. MR LAMEY And then furthermore, paragraph 21, 22 and 23, is that according to you, what your recollection was, as it is stated there? MR FOURIE That is correct yes. MR LAMEY Very well. And then we will also have to amend the amount of people for which you then ask amnesty, is that correct? MR FOURIE Yes, because it seems as if I asked amnesty for more than ... MR LAMEY Concerning the guide who was shot at another scene, who was killed, you were not represented there, you do not know what the circumstances were and what happened there and why he was shot? MR FOURIE No, I do not know at all. MR LAMEY What you know about it is what you had heard? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY Very well. You also say then in paragraph 112 that the fourth member was MK Zakes? MR FOURIE I am not quite sure about that, but Vusi Sandani was his real name, but I do not know about the other name, I could have been mistaken. MR LAMEY And the political motive as on page 113 and 114 and the command that you received and the approval that you got, do you confirm that? MR FOURIE Yes, I do. MR LAMEY Mr Fourie, then there is just another aspect that I forgot about and I would like to ask you something about this. Do you have a recollection about the way in which the bodies were transported from the scene, can you remember? Was it an ambulance? MR FOURIE No, as far as I can remember, they were placed at the back of an open bakkie, as far as I can remember, because I again saw them at the Piet Retief police station, when the bakkie stopped in front of the mortuary, the bodies were still at the back of the open bakkie. MR LAMEY Was this a police bakkie? MR FOURIE It was an unmarked bakkie, it was a Security Branch bakkie. MR LAMEY Were any of the deceased killed from a short distance at the scene? MR FOURIE No, the shortest distance was the people sitting in front, and that was myself and Col Deetlefts, and that was approximately two metres. MR LAMEY Did you receive any benefits apart from your normal salary as a policeman in this incident? MR FOURIE No, not at all. MR LAMEY Can you remember what your rank was at that stage? MR FOURIE I was a Sergeant or Warrant Officer, I think it was Sergeant. MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Fourie, you were involved at C1 at Vlakplaas before Mr de Kock took over the command there? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH You were there even before he arrived at Vlakplaas? MR FOURIE That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Vlakplaas was known as the police, or the Security Police's operational Headquarters? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR HATTINGH And ammunition and weaponry was easily obtainable there? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And rules concerning the issuing of ammunition for other police units, did not, Vlakplaas did not have to follow that? MR FOURIE No, we had no disciplinary rules concerning that. MR HATTINGH But in the rules of the South African Police it was that if a certain amount of bullets were issued, it was written down in a book, and if you used some of those bullets, you had to apply and had to replace them? MR FOURIE Yes, you had to give a report for every single round that was used. MR HATTINGH Or rounds that disappeared or that was used, it had to be done in writing? MR FOURIE That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH But that was not the case at Vlakplaas? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR HATTINGH At Vlakplaas you could not only get ammunition, but you could also get Eastern block weapons and ammunition? MR FOURIE That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And you could freely have access to tracer ammunition? MR FOURIE Yes, everything was available at Vlakplaas. MR HATTINGH And it was also generally, or tracer bullets were also used generally, especially in night operations? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Is it also true that it came after Mr de Kock's evidence and he mentioned that it was his custom to leave the last three rounds in his magazine and they would then be the tracer bullets, and that was to enable him to know when his magazine would empty? MR FOURIE Yes, that was in Ovamboland in the war against SWAPO, I personally put my first round, it would be an ordinary round, the second one would be a tracer one, because if I do not hit the first time, I could see where I am shooting and the second one, and then the last two, I never counted the rounds in my magazine, but the last two rounds in my magazine would also be a tracer bullet, so that I would know then to re-load my magazine. MR HATTINGH Yes, was that also the position in this instance? MR FOURIE Yes. MR HATTINGH And you said that you emptied the whole magazine? MR FOURIE Yes, I did, I shot all 20 rounds. MR HATTINGH You heard what I put to Mr Labuschagne concerning the quality of the tracer bullets, he could not really help me. Do you have more knowledge concerning the workings of a tracer round? MR FOURIE Mr Chairperson, all that I know is that it has phosphor and that it moves very fast, you can determine the direction in which you are shooting, so you can then adjust to your target in order to hit the target better. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, can I interrupt you for a moment, do I understand from what you have just told Mr Hattingh, that you loaded your own magazine on this night? MR FOURIE Chairperson, I cannot recall, as I have said my custom was to make the second round a tracer bullet and then the final two as well. I know that I had tracer bullets in the magazine that night, but I received my weapon in that condition from the Piet Retief Security Branch, it was loaded with tracer bullets, it was custom among us, particularly those members who had come from Ovamboland. It was our custom to load with tracer bullets, because we had often had contacts at night. MR LAX The question was did you load your weapon yourself that night? MR FOURIE As I have just stated, I cannot recall whether I received it as such in that precise condition from the Security Branch or whether we loaded them, I am not sure, but I know that there were tracer bullets in the firearm that I used. All that I did before I inserted the magazine, was to ensure that it was full. MR HATTINGH And you could see that there were tracer bullets in the magazine, due to the fact that you could see the bullet as it was fired? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Do you know that a tracer bullet even after its energy has waned, could still be warm enough to set a field alight? MR FOURIE Yes, we had often had to extinguish quite a number of fires on Vlakplaas due to tracer bullets. MR HATTINGH Is this because of tracer ammunition, the use of tracer ammunition? MR FOURIE Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you often undertake shooting exercises at Vlakplaas? MR FOURIE Yes, we had a shooting range on the farm where we regularly conducted shooting exercises and sometimes it would happen that from the fire, the field would be set on fire due to this ammunition. MR HATTINGH So you used tracer ammunition during these exercises as well? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed? Thank you. Mr Fourie, these words that you uttered, you cannot recall where you heard these words subsequently about Sithole which had opened the canopy, you cannot recall from whom or where you heard this? MR FOURIE I cannot recall it, I just know that the words were uttered at the scene, but I cannot recall who uttered the words. MR DU PLESSIS Would you think that it would be a possibility that it was uttered to the members of the TIN unit who arrived there? MR FOURIE Yes, that is my suspicion. MR DU PLESSIS Very well. Mr Fourie, you heard that there was mention in some of the applications that somebody jumped out of the left passenger door, wielding a firearm and Mr Labuschagne has testified that he never saw any such person. Then there have also been persons who said that the left passenger door was only slightly ajar, what is your recollection about this? MR FOURIE My recollection is that no one disembarked with both of his feet on the ground, it is possible that the door may have been slightly ajar before they were shot dead inside the bakkie, but no other person than the driver disembarked completely from the bakkie, and nobody disembarked from the left door of the bakkie. MR DU PLESSIS Can you recall whether you saw whether the person in the left front, had a pistol in his hands? MR FOURIE No, I cannot recall anything like that. MR DU PLESSIS And then Mr Fourie, you heard what Mr Labuschagne said about the place where Mr Sithole lay after Mr Labuschagne had shot him, do you agree with that evidence? MR FOURIE Yes, I agree with the evidence, although I did not see him collapse because I was on the other side of the bakkie, but after the incident, I saw where his corpse was positioned. MR DU PLESSIS Very well, and then the last question, as I understand you, you do not dispute Mr Labuschagne or Mr de Kock in their evidence, that an order was issued for the informer also to be eliminated. You simply stated that you were not present and that you cannot recall the issue of such an order? It was not issued when you were present? MR FOURIE That is correct, but I do not dispute the fact that such an order was ever issued. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR ROSSOUW I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMAWELE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Fourie, I just want to refer you to your typed statement, page 103 paragraph 6, where you say that the "... if I can recall correctly Douw Willemse took up position at the T-junction where the road from the Nersden border post turned off to Amsterdam." Then you say that the, that is actually where the black members had taken up position? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR RAMAWELE Can you remember how many black members were involved in this operation? MR FOURIE No, I cannot recall, I was not at that point, and I was also not involved in the planning of the persons who were positioned at that point. I simply know that Paul van Dyk had to take his own decision at that point, depending on the circumstances, because nobody knew that a trained terrorist would return with the guide to Swaziland, an armed person. We expected that an unarmed guide would return to Swaziland. MR RAMAWELE But in your statement you say specifically that the black members and Douw Willemse had taken up position four kilometres from the Nersden border gate? MR FOURIE Yes, I can only recall Almond Nofomela, but I don't know who were the other persons who were also present. MR RAMAWELE Do you remember Mngadi, Mr Mngadi? MR FOURIE No, I heard here that he was there, I cannot recall him. MR RAMAWELE You see the reason why I am asking you this is because Mr Paul van Dyk I think, says that he was at the particular T-junction where you say that Douw Willemse was at, but you say it was actually Douw Willemse and the black members? MR FOURIE No, I do not know at all where they were positioned, all I knew is that that group had to go to the T-junction, where precisely every person had to take up position, is something that I was not involved in. All I knew is that they had to be in the vicinity of the T-junction, I wasn't there when they were pointed out which positions they should take up, I didn't drop them off there. MR RAMAWELE So in short, what you are saying is that except for your group where Mr de Kock was, your group where the bakkie was shot at, you don't know the others, Douw Willemse, Paul van Dyk, Nofomela, Mngadi, you don't know where precisely they stood? MR FOURIE No, I don't know. All I know is that they had to take up position at the T-junction. MR RAMAWELE You wouldn't dispute, because my instruction from Mr Nofomela is that he was actually at the T-junction together with two white members and Mr van Dyk wasn't there. You wouldn't dispute that? MR FOURIE No, I wouldn't because I don't know about it, I was only aware of the one group. One at the T-junction and one at the place where we were, where we set up the ambush. MR RAMAWELE And you further say that "... their order was to arrest the guide." Where did you hear this? MR FOURIE I heard this at the Security Branch from Warrant Officer Pienaar, because it was his region, he would have wanted to know who the persons were who were infiltrating the MK members and which persons were involved on the Swaziland side. It was for him a priority, should circumstances allow, and only an unarmed guide returned to Swaziland, to attempt to arrest the person, but Paul would have to be led by circumstances, because if there were armed persons returning along with this person, Paul would have to decide whether or not he would shoot or arrest. It was left to his discretion. MR RAMAWELE My instruction from Mr Nofomela is that he was given instructions by Mr de Kock to eliminate those coming from, to eliminate anybody coming back, going to Swaziland? MR FOURIE I wasn't present at that stage. MR RAMAWELE So you wouldn't dispute when Mr Nofomela puts it to you that his instruction was to eliminate anybody coming back? MR FOURIE I wouldn't dispute that. MR RAMAWELE I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Fourie, you have heard the evidence of Mr Pienaar as well as Mr Deetlefts. Mr Pienaar states that he told the informer that they would arrest the persons at that scene, can you dispute this? MR FOURIE Chairperson, when I was present, we told the informer at the scene that we would attempt to arrest these persons, but that one could never be sure, because these persons could be armed, a shooting could ensue and due to this, we would shoot. We didn't simply say that we were only going to arrest them, we mentioned the possibility to him of a shooting, and that was the primary reason why he had to get away from the bakkie, if they were to open fire on us, we would open fire on them. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr Fourie, just a singular aspect, you stated that Mr van Dyk had to take his own decisions at the position where he was, near the T-junction, and he will testify that it was his attention to arrest the person in order to identify the point where the other persons on the Swaziland side, were situated. Do you know anything about this? MR FOURIE I would not dispute that, because the first discussion I had with Freek Pienaar was that the group that had to be positioned there, had to aim, if circumstances permitted, to arrest this person, this guide, in order to determine where he was going in Swaziland, so that he could explain the route to them and so that he could also tell Freek who was assisting with the infiltration of MK members, but Paul would have to decide for himself, nobody knew that a trained MK member would return to Swaziland with this guide, we didn't know this before the time, so Paul had to be led by circumstances. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTHAI Tell me, did you make an affidavit for that inquest? MR FOURIE No, I did not. MR NTHAI Do you have any reason why you didn't do so? MR FOURIE I was never approached by any person to depose of a statement for a post-mortem inquest. MR NTHAI And you did not attend the meeting where the affidavits were discussed? MR FOURIE No, I did not. MR NTHAI And you were saying that you were very key at the identification of the photo's, is that correct? MR FOURIE Please repeat. MR NTHAI You were very key in identification of the photo's in the area? MR FOURIE Of defectors, yes, or dissidents. MR NTHAI Yes. You mentioned that the reason why you mentioned Shadrack Mopolopo was because you confused another person by that name? MR FOURIE That is correct, according to my knowledge there was also a Shadrack Mopolopo who had lived or operated in Swaziland and that is why the name rang a bell to me on that day, I knew the name Shadrack, but I wasn't certain of the surname, and that is why the name Shadrack Mopolopo emerged in my mind, but I accept today that I was mistaken. MR NTHAI Before, on the night of the 14th, you didn't know the name of the driver? MR FOURIE I knew his name, yes. MR NTHAI You knew it was Shadrack Sithole? MR FOURIE Yes, I knew that. MR NTHAI And later on when you put the name, you confused the two surnames? MR FOURIE Yes, it was 12 years later, I didn't liaise very regularly with those persons, I had only seen the man twice in my life. MR NTHAI And you are saying that these people, the people who were killed in the vehicle, you said they were going to the East Rand? MR FOURIE That is what Shadrack said, that he was to transport persons to the East Rand, Witwatersrand, and he specifically stated the East Rand. MR NTHAI So these people were not going to plant bombs around the Eastern Transvaal? MR FOURIE Not that I knew of, I also don't believe that he knew either. MR NTHAI Did you believe him, that these people were going to the East Rand? MR FOURIE Yes. Perhaps I can just explain to the Committee that the Transvaal Machinery consisted of the Rural Machinery as well as the Urban Machinery and this also fell under Paul Dikaledi who was the Overall Commander of the Transvaal Machinery, and these two had to form part of the Transvaal Urban Machinery. MR NTHAI Yes. And you are also saying that the issue of the killing of Sithole, you only heard it at the scene by Labuschagne, is that correct? MR FOURIE That is correct. While I was busy with interrogation and photo identification of the two arrested terrorists in detention in Piet Retief, I didn't attend everything that took place on the smallholding of the office, because my primary task was to undertake photo identification with the detainees, but it was for the first time at the scene that I heard from Lappies that he had to shoot the informer. I have heard here that Col de Kock gave the order to do so. As he testified, it was in the presence of Mr Deetlefts that de Kock told this to Labuschagne. MR NTHAI Were you not surprised about this? MR FOURIE I was. MR NTHAI Did you try to question him about that? MR FOURIE No. MR NTHAI Were you not now concerned about the plan which was made with the driver? MR FOURIE No, I wasn't, because I believed that because Lappies and Deetlefts and Freek operated in that area and had a lot of information about Swaziland, I believed that they had reason and information to justify Sithole's death. MR NTHAI No, I am talking about just the whole plan, the plan that you had. Isn't it that there was a plan that he was supposed to pretend as if he was going to urinate? MR FOURIE Yes, that is why it was strange to me when he climbed out and walked directly along the bakkie. MR NTHAI This confusion about whether there were five people or four people, how did it come about, because you are not the only one mentioning it? It has been mentioned several times, almost most of the applicants are mentioning this, where did the confusion come from? MR FOURIE I think the fact that I became confused could be ascribed to the fact that I imagined that I saw someone in the back of the bakkie as I lay shooting from my position. In retrospect I could also have thought that it was the bags which protruded in the window which may have led me to believe that there was another person in the back of the bakkie, but what misled me completely, was the fourth body which was at the scene, and I didn't know that this had been brought from the T-junction to the scene of the shooting incident. That is why I assumed that there had been a fourth person in the bakkie, because there were four bodies at the scene of the incident. I wasn't aware of the fact that the corpse had been brought from the T-junction to the scene of our incident, because it was after the incident that the body was fetched from the T-junction and brought to our scene, that is why I assumed that there had to have been four persons, and that a fourth person had to have been seated in the canopy section of the bakkie, because that is what I saw. When I looked again, there were four bodies. MR NTHAI Okay. After how long were the other body from the other side, brought? MR FOURIE No, I don't know and I don't know who transported it there, I don't know who gave the order for it. I thought that Pienaar testified that he sent Botha to fetch the body, but I don't know, I am not aware of it. MR NTHAI But you saw it at the scene? MR FOURIE That is correct. MR NTHAI I am saying at what stage, a number of things, there were other people who came there, the other people, at what stage ... MR FOURIE Yes, I don't know how long after our shooting incident, the body arrived there, because the TIN unit arrived there and Col de Kock and Freek examined the weapons and ammunition quite thoroughly. Many things took place, so I don't know at which stage the body arrived there at the scene of our incident. MR NTHAI Yes. You are talking about the transportation of the bodies at the back of the bakkie, who was driving this bakkie? MR FOURIE I don't know. MR NTHAI Who loaded these bodies? MR FOURIE It would probably have been all the persons who were there in the vicinity, who participated in the operation, our people who had participated in the operation. The bodies were transported from there to Piet Retief, to the mortuary. MR NTHAI I am with you, you were there, did you participate in the loading of the bodies? MR FOURIE It is entirely that I may have assisted in loading the bodies onto the vehicle. MR NTHAI And you cannot remember how these bodies were loaded, whether they were thrown in or they were just loaded normally? MR FOURIE Well, as we worked with the bodies, we would have tossed them onto the vehicle. MR NTHAI What do you mean by that? MR FOURIE We were conditioned since the age of 17 in the Police that these were communists, they were enemies of the State and one didn't have respect for anyone of them, didn't treat them accordingly. They were the enemy and they were the enemies of christianity, because communism aimed to destroy christianity. That was the way that we were indoctrinated by the National Party and the South African Police Commanders during every training session that we experienced, during every course it was drummed into our minds that the ANC were a bunch of communists who aimed to rob us of our christianity. MR NTHAI Would there be anybody at the back of the bakkie when you load the bodies? MR FOURIE Not necessarily, no. MR NTHAI I just want to bring you to the affidavit of Sandani. You realise that in paragraph 18, that is page 78, he talks about being assaulted. MR FOURIE I can see it in front of me, yes. MR NTHAI Yes, do you know whether he was assaulted or not? MR FOURIE No, not at all. The first time I saw Sandani was in the Bethal prison, maybe a month or six weeks later, then I did a photo identification with him. MR NTHAI So you wouldn't know if he was assaulted at that time? MR FOURIE I do not even know that area of camp. MR LAX The issue is not whether you know the camp, he makes several allegations of being assaulted. Do you know anything about whether he was assaulted, just yes or no? MR FOURIE No Mr Chairperson. The first time that I saw him again or that I saw him and worked with him, that was in the Bethal prison. I just heard that the next day he was arrested at a kraal and I do not know what happened to him. MR LAX That is fine, you don't need to explain further. MR NTHAI After how long did you see him? MR FOURIE Approximately six weeks. MR NTHAI I have no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTHAI CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Fourie, were you a member of C2 at this period when this incident occurred? MR FOURIE That is correct yes. MS LOCKHAT And how long were you in the Piet Retief area? MR FOURIE At that stage I had been there for a few weeks, because a photo identification took up to four weeks with a person, so I would have been there for about eight weeks, if I had to do two people's photo identifications. MS LOCKHAT So did your Commander, Mr Naude, send you to Piet Retief area? MR FOURIE Yes, to do the photo identifications. MS LOCKHAT Did you inform him of this incident? MR FOURIE Not as far as I can remember, no. MS LOCKHAT Why not, seeing that he was your Commander and he sent you out on instructions and on a different mission basically? MR FOURIE Yes, what would happen because I worked under Freek Pienaar, Freek would have told Col Deetlefts and Col Deetlefts would have known because he worked for the Section Head, Visser, he would have conveyed it to the Head Office and it would have reached him any way. MS LOCKHAT And how often did you report to Mr Naude? On a daily basis? MR FOURIE No. MS LOCKHAT When did you report to him when you were out in the field? MR FOURIE Just after I arrived from working in the field. MS LOCKHAT So did you report this to him after you had completed this, I mean as a normal course of events? MR FOURIE It is possible that I could have said to him that I took part in the shooting at Nersden. MS LOCKHAT Are you saying like normal course of events you would actually report this to him, because he was your Commander? MR FOURIE Yes. MS LOCKHAT What would he basically inform you after you had informed you of this, would he generally, would he just cover it up as well? MR FOURIE No, because he did not make a decision concerning it and because he is C2, he just informed, C1 and C2 had the same Commander and that was Brig Schoon. C1 was Col de Kock and C2 was Naude, so Brig Schoon would then inform both of them about what happened during their morning conferences or meetings. MS LOCKHAT And then just one last aspect, Shadrack Sithole, was he a registered informer? I see in the papers you mentioned that he was a registered informer? MR FOURIE I do not believe that he was registered earlier on, the first time I saw him, but when Pienaar spoke to him then, then I think Warrant Officer Pienaar said that he will pay him if he brings him information concerning ANC members that wanted to infiltrate or whatever happened in Swaziland, and that is where he recruited him as an informer. That is how it worked. MS LOCKHAT Because if I can recall Mr Pienaar's evidence, he said that he wasn't a registered informer? MR FOURIE Yes, but if you promise somebody money or if you say you will give them money, he would be a registered informer. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT MR SIBANYONI The fact that you were indoctrinated to say that the ANC are communist, they are trying to rob you of christianity, did that make you to hate them? MR FOURIE We were indoctrinated and taught to hate the ANC and the PAC because they are communist and they want to take over our country and wanted to burn our churches and to expel all christianity from the country. The ANC was similar to a communist, the PAC was communist and we had to fight against communism, that was our biggest threat and that was given to us by the National Party or the government, in all the courses that I attended. MR SIBANYONI When one looks at the bakkie, it would appear all the windows are shattered of the canopy as well as of the bakkie, is that so? MR FOURIE That is correct yes. MR SIBANYONI Wouldn't one think that maybe more force was used than necessary to kill these people, in other words you people were just emptying your bullets into these people? MR FOURIE Because we didn't know how many people were going to infiltrate, there was the possibility that there could have been people laying flat at the back of the bakkie, we didn't want to take chances, we just shot everything we had, and made sure that they were dead. MR SIBANYONI How long did the shooting take place approximately? MR FOURIE It takes a few seconds, it feels like seven minutes, but a contact only lasts for a few seconds ... (transcriber's own interpretation) MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions. MR RAMAWELE There was no interpretation. INTERPRETER Of what? MR RAMAWELE Of the last answer. MR LAX We cannot hear you. INTERPRETER Could you just repeat the question, and then I will translate the answer. MR SIBANYONI The question was how long did the shooting take place, we didn't get the translation of your answer? MR FOURIE Although it seems as if it was seven minutes, it is about a few seconds. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, may I request you to allow Mr de Kock to be excused at this stage, the Correctional Services say that they find it difficult if they arrive there late. I am satisfied that he won't be prejudiced if we continue in his absence, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Have we finished, let's just finish with this, it will take a minute I think. Have you got any questions? MR LAX Yes, I have a few. Do I understand correctly that you don't know anything about the shooting that took place at the T-junction and you don't associate yourself with that? MR FOURIE No, I was not involved, I was not present when they were shot, so I do not know what happened there, Mr Chairperson. MR LAX Yes, do you associate yourself with that shooting, though? MR FOURIE Yes, I have to because I was part of the operation, it was part of the same operation. MR LAX And then, did I understand you correctly to be saying that the reason you were on the farm was to do with Glory Sidebe? MR FOURIE That is correct, yes. MR LAX And you were busy with photo ID with him there? MR FOURIE Not a full photo identification, I was busy with the 5 000 photo identification with the two detainees at the Security Branch, but photographs, or there were loose photographs available that we would go and show to Glory, but we didn't do a full photo identification at that stage. MR LAX My simple question is, did you go there as part of an interrogation, show him photographs and request information from him that afternoon? MR FOURIE I am not sure if it was that same afternoon, but yes, in that period while I was there. I do not know how long he was detained at the smallholding. MR LAX Yes, so you cannot say whether it was that day or not? MR FOURIE No, I cannot. MR LAX What other reason would you have had for going to the farm? MR FOURIE It would have been just to see Sidebe. MR LAX Because your earlier evidence was that that is why you would have gone there to ask him questions? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Sorry, and to be part of an photo ID with him? MR FOURIE Yes. MR LAX You see the problem that I have with that, that is what I thought I had understood from your earlier evidence, but the problem that I have with that is that Mr Deetlefts made it clear that no questioning of Sidebe took place at all that day, no information was got from him on that day? MR FOURIE Yes, I won't know about that, but it is possible that at that day I showed him photographs, maybe photographs that we needed urgent information about, but I don't know if it was that same day, I cannot remember. MR LAX He was clear that the man wasn't ready to be asked any questions, that would have still taken some time? MR FOURIE Yes, although he did give his co-operation from the beginning, but I cannot remember if it was that specific day that I showed him the photographs. MR LAX Just one last thing, the issue of tracer bullets, one accepts that as part of your training you are involved with tracer bullets, you practise with them from time to time and there is good reason for that, because if you use too many tracer bullets, you can damage the "loop", I cannot think of the English word suddenly ... MR FOURIE Yes, the barrel. MR LAX The barrel, precisely, and so one needs to know carefully how to use them and you practise that quite a lot, but the simple question is this, you went out there on operations, you yourself, you didn't carry tracer bullets around with you as a matter of course? MR FOURIE No, I did not. MR LAX Yes. And normal Security Branch people don't carry tracer bullets around with them as a matter of course in their normal daily activities, correct? MR FOURIE I think that every Security Branch do have tracer bullets. MR LAX Yes, but that is not the issue. As a matter of course, the average Security Policeman doesn't load his 9mm firearm with tracer bullets, or his R1 rifle with tracer bullets, not so? MR FOURIE But we knew that we were going to execute this operation in the night, so we had to ensure that we had tracer bullets. If it was in the day, you wouldn't mind, but because it was in the evening, it will give you assistance in targeting the target. MR LAX My point is this, and I am agreeing with you and you are precisely making my point for me, that somebody would have specifically requisitioned tracer bullets to ensure that they were loaded correctly in the magazines so that those rifles and whatever other firearms you were going to use, would be in a proper condition for that operation. It is something that somebody must have instructed somebody to do, so that when the firearms arrived on the farm, they were ready for use in that manner? MR FOURIE Yes, that is correct, I believe that, but I don't know who did that. MR LAX Because neither you nor Mr Labuschagne, and you are the only two who have been asked about this, remember loading tracers into your magazines at all? CHAIRPERSON No, Labuschagne didn't, he said he just saw it in the magazine ... MR FOURIE He said his was already loaded. MR LAX Yes, precisely. And you don't remember it either? MR FOURIE No. CHAIRPERSON You got, you were issued with loaded weapons? MR FOURIE That is correct yes. MR LAX That is my point. CHAIRPERSON Yes, they didn't load them. MR LAX That is my point. CHAIRPERSON But you just put to him that they made sure they were loaded? MR LAX I haven't. No. CHAIRPERSON You have. MR LAX No, you misunderstood. Any way, sorry, just to - in case there is any doubt in the matter, my question to you was that neither of you loaded those weapons yourselves, somebody else must have done it for you? MR FOURIE That is correct yes. I assume that it would have been at the Security Branch at Piet Retief or at the smallholding where somebody was told to get all the weapons ready, but I cannot say who it was, I was not present. MR LAX And if you had been part of it, it is something that you would probably remember? MR FOURIE Yes. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Right, Mr de Kock can go. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I am quite happy to sit later gentlemen, if you think that there is a realistic change of us finishing tomorrow. MR HATTINGH Quite frankly Mr Chairman, I don't see us finishing tomorrow having regard to the fact that Mr Sandani has also got to give evidence, and I think that some of us might be some time with him. CHAIRPERSON Well, there are six more applicants if Willemse is giving evidence, no, five more applicants. Mr Sandani, I think you are right, well in that case, I don't, as I indicated earlier, I don't want to make people work longer hours than normal if it is not going to achieve anything realistic, and I have also indicated, I make it quite clear, it does not effect me to any large extent, but it may effect others, as to what time we stop tomorrow. In the light of the fact that you are all agreed that we are not able to finish tomorrow and will have to have adjourn part-heard, that we may finish reasonably early tomorrow, to enable people to get away. MS VAN DER WALT May I just raise one aspect, it was not discussed with us the date which Ms Lockhat has proposed, the 7th of February. We are part of a partially heard criminal matter which was postponed from this year February to next year February for seven weeks, so that has to be taken into consideration. I don't know, isn't it possible that, because my people will go very quickly from this point onwards, I don't really have such a great problem, we could be finished by tomorrow twelve o'clock. CHAIRPERSON Well, everyone else says we don't, but are you now asking that we should take your people tomorrow? MS VAN DER WALT It wouldn't really help because I would have to be here for the rest of the hearing, I am just hearing it for the sake of the dates, that Ms Lockhat is just aware of this. It doesn't really matter, I would still have ... CHAIRPERSON I was not consulted about the dates, I have nothing to do with the dates, talk to Ms Lockhat about that. MS VAN DER WALT I accept that. CHAIRPERSON Do you think we can finish tomorrow by midday you say? MS VAN DER WALT I had not taken into consideration Mr Sandani. CHAIRPERSON Sandani, and we have so far dealt with five applicants? We've got another six to do? I don't think we should sit any longer in that circumstances. What time tomorrow? Nine o'clock would suit me, but ... MS VAN DER WALT Nine o'clock. CHAIRPERSON Nine o'clock tomorrow. MR LAMEY Chairperson, may I make sure, are we done with Mr Fourie or are we ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry, re-examination, I keep forgetting after we talked, that there may be re-examination. Is there any? MR LAMEY No Chairperson, there is no re-examination. CHAIRPERSON We are done, Mr Lamey. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Are you applying as the others have? MR LAX Yes, if he may be excused. CHAIRPERSON Provided you are able to assure us that should he be required, you can make arrangements. MR LAMEY As it pleases you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED MS LOCKHAT All rise. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS