amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-16 THOHOYANDOU 2 T MASHAMBA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53934&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99111517_tho_991116th.htm T MASHAMBA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mashamba, I see in your application here you indicate that you were born on the 2nd February 1963? Is that your correct date of birth? MR MASHAMBA Yes. MR NDOU Now you're appearing here before the Amnesty Committee on charges. Which are the charges which you appear here for? MR MASHAMBA Murder and arson. MR NDOU Murder of who? MR MASHAMBA France Khomogwe MR NDOU And the arson in respect of whom? MR MASHAMBA In connection with the house of Mafune. MR NDOU And where do these two people reside? MR MASHAMBA France Khomogwe is staying at Chikane ...(indistinct) MR NDOU Yes? MR MASHAMBA Mafune is staying at ...(indistinct) MR NDOU Explain to this Committee as to how it came about that you committed these offences? MR MASHAMBA Yes. MR NDOU When did these offences take place? MR MASHAMBA It took place on 11th February 1990. MR NDOU Is that the same date on which the former president Mandela was released? MR MASHAMBA Yes it's correct. MR NDOU Now could you explain to the Committee as to what transpired? MR MASHAMBA Yes I could. MR NDOU Please do so. MR MASHAMBA On that day of the 11th February 1990 I found people celebrating about the release of President Mandela and people who were talking and then I reached my hand and said how do you we feel this issue of the people who are committing ritual murders and witchcraft which is such an extent they are not working properly with the people. MR NDOU Proceed? MR MASHAMBA It's then that the majority of people that what we think we must do or was the solution on that? I said that where I am staying there is a person called Joseph Tshimbupfe. he is a ritual murderer and he is disturbing the community. MR NDOU Yes? MR MASHAMBA It's then that a certain TV Mapulani who is staying in the same village said that France Khomogwe is a witch from there, he said a certain person from Dindela called Thomas Ndau said ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON When was all this when you were talking about these witches? MR MASHAMBA It was during the meeting. CHAIRPERSON What meeting? MR MASHAMBA Of celebrating the release of Mandela. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV DE JAGER I'm sorry, you mentioned a name, you said Joseph and what was his name was a man committing ritual murders. What was the name of this man? MR MASHAMBA Joseph Tshimbupfe. CHAIRPERSON Spell it? MR MASHAMBA T-S-H-I-M-B-U-P-F-E. MR NDOU Now you say you were at this meeting and you started raising the issue of witches and ritual murders? MR MASHAMBA Yes it's true. MR NDOU Why were you raising these issues? MR MASHAMBA It's because those two people were not making the community to live well or they were not on good terms with the community. CHAIRPERSON What were they doing to the community. MR MASHAMBA They were committing ritual murders and others were practising witchcraft. MR NDOU And did that have anything to do with politics? MR MASHAMBA It's because the person who was committing ritual murder he was a member of parliament. I think if I'm sure he was the speaker of parliament, he was holding a high position in government, I think he was the speaker of the parliament. ADV DE JAGER Was that Joseph? MR MASHAMBA Yes. MR NDOU Yes and then? MR MASHAMBA Then as a community we agreed that this way we are celebrating we must also involve him in this. MR NDOU How involve him? How were you going to involve him? MR MASHAMBA By following him and then killing him. MR NDOU Please explain to the Committee. MR MASHAMBA We agreed that it is better as we are celebrating we must also stand there and go there. We followed him and found him in his cave and then we found that it was past about 6 or 7 ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why did you want to kill him? MR MASHAMBA Could you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Why did you want to kill him? MR MASHAMBA It was just because he was participating in ritual killings. CHAIRPERSON Let's be careful now. You know, you come here to apply for amnesty. I want you to listen very carefully and I want you to consider your answers very carefully. In order to obtain or to be granted amnesty the act or offence for which you apply for amnesty must have been committed for a political reason. In other words that act must advance or intended to advance a political position. Do you understand that? MR MASHAMBA Yes I understand. CHAIRPERSON And secondly, when you testify you must make full disclosure in relation to that act for which you apply for amnesty, do you understand that? Full disclosure is you must tell us all the relevant aspects of what you did and why. Do you understand? MR MASHAMBA Yes. CHAIRPERSON I want you to explain to us, this decision to kill the witches, how did that relate to a political objective or how did that advance a political stance or position? MR MASHAMBA It is because those people who were in power at the time were working together with both which the power they used they were getting from the Inyanga and the witch. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat that I didn't understand you? MR MASHAMBA They were participating in ritual killings, it was coming from the witch and the Inyanga so that they can be getting respect or just tell everything in the way that we will just admit it. CHAIRPERSON I don't follow you. How would killing a witch improve the political stance that you had? MR MASHAMBA It is because those people who were in power, the power to kill the people who they were getting it from the witch and the witchdoctor. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so? How did that become political? MR MASHAMBA It is related because the people who were ruling by the time they were the ones who was practising ritual murder getting order from the witchdoctor and the witch, that we as Venda we believed that there is no person who can kill a person ritually and not getting order from the witchdoctor or the witch who knows how these things works. CHAIRPERSON I want you to listen very carefully to me. You must remember what I explained to you about the Act, the requirements you need to fulfil in order to be granted amnesty. Remember you must make full disclosure and the acts for which you apply for amnesty must have been done with a political motive that includes advancing your political position. Okay, do you understand? MR MASHAMBA Yes I understand. CHAIRPERSON Now I'm going to try to help you now. I've been struggling to find out from you what political motive was the killing of witches committed or how did it advance your political position or even that of your political organisation. We are also aware of the fact that at the time there was an approach towards witches where people were starting to reject the idea of the witches practices especially witches murders. That was quite apart from any political stance or political activity, do you understand. It's quite separate, there was nothing political about that in some quarters while in fact we also know that in other quarters the attack on witches indeed took on a political flavour. Now I'm going to ask you a simple question, I'm going to ask now which category did you fall in when you made this decision or party that decision to kill witches but before you answer I may as well tell you now that whatever answer you give, I'm going to ask you why you say so, do you understand? MR MASHAMBA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything you don't understand? You can ask now, feel free. MR MASHAMBA I don't have. CHAIRPERSON Okay, then I'm going to ask you the question. In which category did you fall when you took the decision that the witches should be killed? MR MASHAMBA I was supporting that they must be killed. CHAIRPERSON Yes because they were involved in ritual killings or because there was political reason to do so, which one of the two or perhaps there was a third one that we don't know, you can tell us? MR MASHAMBA I was supporting because those people who were killing people ritually I checked and found that there are people who are holding high position in the government who are high officials in the government and even those which who are witching they were working together with those who were high officials in the government. Those people who were in power they get the power from the witch. CHAIRPERSON To rule you, do I understand you correctly? In order to stay in government they got the power to rule from the witches? MR MASHAMBA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Ndou? MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairperson. Now you were explaining to the Committee as to what transpired on that fateful day on the 11th February 1990 and you had just explained that the group had decided to proceed to the kraal so that the people who had been identifying as witches and ritual murderers. Now you've already indicated that you proceeded to the kraal of Joseph Tishumbupfe. What transpired when you arrived at Tishumbupfe's kraal? MR MASHAMBA On our arrival we were singing those freedom songs. When he saw we were entering and just because we were many he was coming out from the cave. When he stood in a plain place he said if you come near me I will kill you then he showed a warning then we go back. MR NDOU Now when you say we approached, approximately how many people are you talking about here? MR MASHAMBA We were about 150. MR NDOU Yes and after Thishumbupfe had fired some shots in the air? CHAIRPERSON Do you belong to a political organisation? MR MASHAMBA Yes I'm just a supporter. CHAIRPERSON Of? MR MASHAMBA Of ANC. CHAIRPERSON You were a supporter at that time? MR MASHAMBA Yes I was a supporter. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. ADV DE JAGER Yes but could I put it to you that the ANC never instructed or asked people to kill the witches, isn't that so? MR MASHAMBA It's true. ADV DE JAGER Now why did you do so if the ANC didn't ask you to act in such a way, how do you think would you by killing the witches support the ANC? MR MASHAMBA We were looking at the government which was ruling us in Venda at the time of Ravello. ADV DE JAGER Was Ravello acting with the government of South Africa or was he on the side of the ANC? MR MASHAMBA Ravello's government was ...(indistinct) opposite to the ANC. ADV DE JAGER So in fighting the Ravello government you were fighting the enemy of the ANC? MR MASHAMBA Yes it's true. MR NDOU May I proceed? Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Now you were there at Joseph Thisumbupfe's kraal, he comes out, he fires several shots in the air, what happens to you people there? MR MASHAMBA It's then that we go to the house of France Khomogwe. There when we arrived I asked the house which he used to sleep because I was not knowing it then I was shown it by the one who pointed him who mentioned the name that this person is a witch. In the house there was a light then I opened the door then I get in together with ...(indistinct). I was holding a big stick, I hold him and then beat him. I beat him four or five then he get out then he fall to the people. CHAIRPERSON Who was that? MR MASHAMBA France Khomogwe. MR NDOU Is that the deceased in this matter? MR MASHAMBA Yes it's the deceased. MR NDOU Yes and after you pulled him out and hit him several times with a stick and pulled him outside what transpired? MR MASHAMBA When he get out people started to beat him with sticks and stones until he fell down and died. MR NDOU Yes and what you did, is all that you did according to the way you explained that you only hit with a stick and dragged the deceased out of his hut? MR MASHAMBA Yes. MR NDOU Yes and what transpired then? MR MASHAMBA From there we proceeded to Mafune, we didn't find Mafune we found him already flat. I think that I took out the matches and then I lit the house he used to store medicines. MR NDOU Yes? MR MASHAMBA Then under that guy who was called Frederick he also later and Thomas Ndaw also lied. MR NDOU Yes you can proceed, just explain? MR MASHAMBA Then the whole homestead came to be on fire then we get out. MR NDOU Yes? ADV DE JAGER Mr Ndou, the name of the owner of hut that's been set on fire? MR NDOU It's Mafune. ADV DE JAGER This is not France, it's not his family either, it's a third? MR NDOU Yes a third ...(indistinct) that they proceeded to. ADV DE JAGER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is that in relation to the arson? MR NDOU Arson charge yes. CHAIRPERSON So he didn't burn anything at France's house he just murdered him? MR NDOU That's right. CHAIRPERSON Can you spell that name please? MR NDOU Mafune's spelt M-A-F-U-N-E. CHAIRPERSON Mafune, what's the other name? MR NDOU Mafune is the surname but he says he doesn't know the first name. CHAIRPERSON So it was that house that was burnt? MR NDOU That's right. CHAIRPERSON Where the house full of medicines were also burnt? Was he there, Mafune? MR MASHAMBA No he was not there. We didn't find there on our arrival. MR NDOU And according to your evidence three huts were burnt is that right? MR MASHAMBA Yes that is correct. MR NDOU And you only participated in the burning of one? MR MASHAMBA Yes I'm the person who burnt the first one which was containing the medicines. MR NDOU I see. Is there anything that you wish to tell the Committee? MR MASHAMBA Yes, I want the Committee to forgive me for all these deeds I have done. CHAIRPERSON Well I'm afraid we can't forgive you but you can certainly ask the victims or the deceased, family of the deceased and the owner of the house that was burnt. You can ask their forgiveness. I'm not too sure if they're present but they are the people to whom the request for forgiveness should be made. MR NDOU Have you ever seen any member of the family of these two families? MR MASHAMBA Yes. MR NDOU Who did you see? MR MASHAMBA I am seeing Jerry Khomogwe who is the son of the deceased. CHAIRPERSON Anybody else? MR MASHAMBA I'm seeing the only person here. CHAIRPERSON Nobody from Mafune's house or Mr Mafune himself? MR MASHAMBA Even Mr Mafune and any person from that family I'm unable to identify that person. CHAIRPERSON In any event if they are here you can still to them even in their absence I suppose but if you want to say something to the deceased's son please go ahead. MR MASHAMBA Myself here, I'm asking him to forgive me. I don't have much to say. CHAIRPERSON Why you asking for forgiveness if you don't have much to say? MR MASHAMBA It's because I have committed a crime. MR NDOU That is all, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg is this one of the cases in which you appear for the families? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes Mr Chairperson, I have only instructions from Mr Jerry Khomogwe which is the son of the deceased, that is the only instructions and by and large I'd like to confine my cross-examination to that specific incident. MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, if I may just at this stage? Regarding the arson incident and the victims in that matter, the names of those victims are not mentioned in the application, we accordingly didn't notify, were unaware of it. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG Thank you, may I proceed? Mr Mashamba, there's just thing I want you to explain to me. If you now succeeded in killing all the witches in the whole of Venda, how would that act cause the people in government in power to become powerless? MR MASHAMBA They were going to become powerless because most of their power they get them from the witches. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes but you've got to explain me would they be so powerless that they can't get out of bed in the morning or will the people not hear them or understand them or will the people not follow them? How would they become powerless? MR MASHAMBA Having killed the witches I think that is why the people in power in those times are no longer ruling the country because they were unable to rule. MR VAN RENSBURG Because you killed the witches? That's they become incapable of ruling, because you kill the witches. MR MASHAMBA I think where they used to get their power and medicine we eradicated those places. MR VAN RENSBURG No, you're still not answering my question and I have to insist on that. How did they fail in having power because you killed a few witches? MR MASHAMBA All the witches who were known I think they were all killed because up to now since I was arrested those cases of witches are no longer heard about. MR VAN RENSBURG No that's fine but that's still not an answer to the question. Can you answer this question? MR MASHAMBA Can you please repeat the question? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, the question is if you've now succeeded in killing a few witches or even all the witches, how did that cause the people in power to lose their power, to become powerless? MR MASHAMBA By killing the witches we were limiting the power of the rulers who were ruling during that period so that they will no longer have power so that they will get out of the government and then the government be re-incorporated. MR VAN RENSBURG Mr Chairperson, I will not labour that point any further, I will continue. ADV DE JAGER But perhaps then I could put an example? The government is like a torch. If you take out the battery it wouldn't shine and now the witches, they were the batteries of the government? MR MASHAMBA Witches and ritual murderers were batteries of the government because those people who were ruling, they used to get this thing of ritual murder because of these witches and witchdoctors. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, what did the deceased do that he had to be killed, what was he? MR MASHAMBA The deceased it was alleged that he made a certain boy who was a soccer player to get missing or to disappear. CHAIRPERSON No, but was he a witch, a ritual murderer of a politician or what? MR MASHAMBA He was a witch. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that? MR MASHAMBA That is known by the person who pointed him, who mentioned his name in the meeting. CHAIRPERSON Now what is this about a soccer player? MR MASHAMBA It's that he mysteriously, the soccer player mysteriously disappeared after being called by him. CHAIRPERSON And so? MR MASHAMBA And until now we don't know his whereabouts since his disappearance. CHAIRPERSON Had his disappearance anything to do with the playing of soccer? MR MASHAMBA He was a soccer player and he was called by that old man and then he disappeared and he was no longer seen. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV SIGODI There's just one thing which I want to get from you. If the witches were responsible for giving power to the people in government what concerns me is the fact that on this day it was a day when President Mandela was being released. Wasn't that an indication that the power of the witches was waning, why was it necessary to kill them because at that time there was an indication that the ANC was unbanned and the leader of the ANC had just been released so why was it necessary to do something to make the country ungovernable and to remove the witches, especially on that day? MR MASHAMBA It's because we were fighting against the government who was ruling us here in Venda so that it must be reincorporated back in South Africa. MR VAN RENSBURG Thank you Madame. Did you know the soccer player that allegedly went missing because of the action of Mr France Khomogwe? MR MASHAMBA Could you please repeat your question? MR VAN RENSBURG Did you know the soccer player that went missing? MR MASHAMBA Yes because since then I have not yet seen him again. MR VAN RENSBURG What was his name? MR MASHAMBA We used to call him by a nickname, soccer nickname, called Pula. MR VAN RENSBURG Now when you met Mr France Khomogwe in his house did you ask him where this Pula is? MR MASHAMBA No, he was no longer asked about that. MR VAN RENSBURG Why didn't you ask him? MR MASHAMBA We didn't ask because we had already decided that those people must be killed. MR VAN RENSBURG Didn't you think that perhaps his family would have liked to have known his whereabouts before you killed this man who is linked with them? MR MASHAMBA The parents of the missing person were losing hope because it was long that the person had disappeared. MR VAN RENSBURG Exactly then it was the last chance that you can find out what happened to him by asking the man that you're going to kill? Must I repeat the question? MR MASHAMBA Yes please. MR VAN RENSBURG You see you testified that the parents of the soccer player was now desperate because they're losing hope because the man was missing for a long time and the only link between the missing person as far as you're concerned is Mr France Khomogwe which you are about to kill so if you kill him his family will have absolute no means to ever find out what happened to him? Now in those circumstances, I ask you, why didn't you ask him before you kill him? MR MASHAMBA It's because we realised that it's long this thing had happened and the parents of the person have already lost hope and they were no longer interested in that matter. ADV DE JAGER Could you tell us, when did Pula disappear? You say it was a long time? MR MASHAMBA I think it was in 1989. MR VAN RENSBURG Was his disappearance reported to the police? MR MASHAMBA I think so but I'm not sure. MR VAN RENSBURG Did you know Mr France Khomogwe before that specific date? MR MASHAMBA Yes he was known to me. CHAIRPERSON Did you know he was a witch? MR MASHAMBA No I used to hear the hearsays about that. CHAIRPERSON Before the disappearance of the soccer player or only after? MR MASHAMBA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes what? MR MASHAMBA I'm saying yes that I used to hear about him practising witchcraft before the disappearance of this soccer player. CHAIRPERSON So even the disappearance of the soccer player was hearsay? MR MASHAMBA No it was true that he disappeared. CHAIRPERSON And did you believe the people who told you that the deceased was practising witchcraft? MR MASHAMBA Yes I believed. MR VAN RENSBURG Did you find any medicine in Mr France Khomogwe's house? MR MASHAMBA Yes, medicines were there. MR VAN RENSBURG What medicine? MR MASHAMBA It was a medicine in bottles. MR VAN RENSBURG I want you to give me a description of the medicine in the bottles. MR MASHAMBA Those medicines were sitting in different bottles differently as they are. MR VAN RENSBURG You see, why I give you an opportunity to describe this is to give you an opportunity to tell this hearing that it was in fact traditional medicine and you failed to do that. Should we therefore deduct that it was medicine like cough syrup and things like that? MR MASHAMBA Those medicines were the traditional medicines not like cough remedy medicine. MR VAN RENSBURG I put it to you that you killed an innocent old man who was never in his life involved in witchcraft? MR MASHAMBA I don't agree with that. MR VAN RENSBURG Except for beating Mr Khomogwe with sticks, was he assaulted by the group in any other way? MR MASHAMBA Yes he was also assaulted by a group immediately when he got outside the house the group that were there began to attack him. MR VAN RENSBURG How? MR MASHAMBA In beating, when I get inside the house immediately when he went outside the house I failed to see what was happening because the group of people or a mob was on top of him attacking him. MR VAN RENSBURG Surely you could see how he was beaten or not? MR MASHAMBA I can see what was happening because I was close by. MR VAN RENSBURG So tell us, how did they beat him, how did the crowd beat him and with what? CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg is it in dispute? MR VAN RENSBURG Mr Chairperson, I will come to the point in a question or two if you will just allow me this please? What I want to know is was he only beaten with sticks until he died or was other instruments used as well? MR MASHAMBA He was being beaten by sticks and stones. MR VAN RENSBURG Okay and you see the reason why I'm asking you this is because Mr Jerry Khomogwe who found his father's body the next day says that his head was actually flattened, beaten to a pulp. What do you say about that? MR MASHAMBA No, I can't dispute that. MR VAN RENSBURG You agree with that? MR MASHAMBA I can agree. MR VAN RENSBURG Then I have to put it to you that you are seriously trying to downplay the attack on the deceased and the viciousness thereof? MR MASHAMBA I have explained that I attacked him inside the house and that when he got out the house there were people waiting for him who started to stone him and beat him by sticks by the people who were outside. MR VAN RENSBURG I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Sir, can you tell us, Mr is it Mafune? His three huts were burnt, not so and you were responsible for setting the first house alight? MR MASHAMBA Yes I'm the person who burnt the first house which was containing the medicine. MS PATEL Okay and this was done because Mr Mafune was pointed out by someone as being a wizard, is that correct? MR MASHAMBA Yes that is correct. MS PATEL Who pointed him out? MR MASHAMBA It's Thomas Mete. MS PATEL And what did he say about Mr Mafune? MR MASHAMBA He said Mafune was taking people, making them or turning them into zombis. MS PATEL And which people would this be? MR MASHAMBA One of the persons who was mentioned, Florence Mashia, who was alleged to have been taken by that person. MS PATEL And what did Florence do, what type of work did she do. MR MASHAMBA She was a churchgoer. MS PATEL Okay, was she involved in politics at all? MR MASHAMBA No, she was a church churchgoer as such, she never participated in politics. MS PATEL Okay and anybody else that you know that he supposedly turned into a zombi? MR MASHAMBA Others I heard about them but for now I can't recall the names, I'm unable to recall the names of those people. MS PATEL Okay now from what you're able to tell us, it doesn't appear that any of the victims of Mr Mafune were involved in politics? MR MASHAMBA Florence Mishia was a churchgoer and she was not participating in politics. MS PATEL Okay so the intention even though only his house was set alight, the intention was to kill him, not so, initially? If he was found he would have been killed? MR MASHAMBA Yes that is correct. MS PATEL Okay now what political purpose would that have served? MR MASHAMBA We would have ...(indistinct) the powers of the people who were ruling during those days. MS PATEL But you've just told us that none of the victims of, alleged victims of Mr Mafune were involved in politics so I don't understand your response? MR MASHAMBA As I have mentioned Florence Mashia only as a person participating in the politics. ADV SIGODI Sorry. The people you have mentioned are people who are victims of Mr Mafune. Now what I want to find out from you, of the people who were ruling or who were in power in Venda who do you know had received assistance from Mr Mafune either by way of muti or some other powers from Mr Mafune who had been assisted by Mr Mafune? MR MASHAMBA Joseph Thithbupfe, most of the things he used to receive from him. ADV SIGODI Is Joseph the one who was a member of parliament? MR MASHAMBA Yes. MS PATEL How did you know this that Joseph had received assistance from Mr Mafune? MR MASHAMBA Because I used to see him seeing that they've got relationship because Joseph used to go to him. MS PATEL So what, just because he went to visit him how do you draw the inference that he was being assisted by him to maintain his power? MR MASHAMBA It's because even when he go and commit ritual murder he was told that if he wants these things to move smoothly he must do like that. I think most of things he was receiving it from him. In Venda it is said a person cannot just go out and commit a ritual murder without knowing the reason for doing that. MS PATEL I'm sorry, I don't understand your response, perhaps I should ask the question again. How do you know that Joseph was receiving assistance from Mafune to maintain his power. What did you see that led you to this conclusion? MR MASHAMBA Because he cannot frequent the place without there is nothing ...(inaudible) MS PATEL What if they were just friends, can you dispute that, is it a possibility? MR MASHAMBA I can dispute that. MS PATEL On what basis do you dispute that? MR MASHAMBA I can dispute because those people they were not of the same age to a certain extent that they can be friends. MS PATEL Did you know Joseph personally? MR MASHAMBA Yes I know him. MS PATEL Did you know him personally? MR MASHAMBA Yes I know him personally. MS PATEL Okay. Why was he not approached if your dispute was with him and you knew him personally, why was he not approached? MR MASHAMBA His person I mentioned that he shot two warnings while we approached him. MS PATEL Okay, sorry yes. ADV DE JAGER Is he still alive? MR MASHAMBA Yes he is still alive. ADV DE JAGER Is he involved in politics these days or wouldn't you know? MR MASHAMBA I don't know because it's long that I've been in jail. ADV DE JAGER Yes. MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, if you would just grant me a moment? ADV DE JAGER The soccer player, Pula who disappeared, was he involved in politics? MR MASHAMBA Yes he was involved in politics. ADV DE JAGER How was he involved, what was his function in politics? MR MASHAMBA He was a secretary who used to write letters to call the meeting. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Okay, besides Joseph was there anybody else that knew of that Mr Mafune assisted? MR MASHAMBA No. MS PATEL Okay and you say he assisted them by turning people into zombis or he assisted Joseph by turning people into zombis, is that correct? MR MASHAMBA I didn't hear your question properly, could you please repeat? MS PATEL Okay, did Mafune assist Joseph by turning people into zombis? MR MASHAMBA Mafune was the person who turned people into zombis. CHAIRPERSON Have you ever seen this thing, a zombi? MR MASHAMBA No I've not yet seen that. CHAIRPERSON Now how come you can testify that someone changed whatever into a zombi? MR MASHAMBA It's because the ...(indistinct) where I'm coming from there is a place which that person was alleged to have put all these things and nobody can gain access to that place, not anybody, people don't reach that place, it's the only person who can gain access to that place. I mean Mafune is the only person who can gain access to that place. CHAIRPERSON But I'm not talking about where he can get access, I'm taking about this thing called zombi. Do you believe in that it exists? MR MASHAMBA Yes I believe they are there. CHAIRPERSON How long have you had such a belief? MR MASHAMBA I think at the age of 15 by then I happened to believe that zombis are there. CHAIRPERSON And you are now how old? You are 36 years old now? MR MASHAMBA Yes I'm 36. CHAIRPERSON So for 20 years you've believed now that there exists zombis? MR MASHAMBA Yes I still believe. CHAIRPERSON And through that 20 years you've never seen anyone, any zombi? MR MASHAMBA No I've never met one. CHAIRPERSON Why do you continue believing that they exist? MR MASHAMBA It's because where I'm referring to at Chimbuve there's a no go area which is said to be a place for the zombis and nobody will have ever reached that place. CHAIRPERSON Yes but you haven't seen it? MR MASHAMBA It's not possible to see them because you can't reach that place where they are. CHAIRPERSON Now let's assume that they only stay there. MR MASHAMBA Maybe it's the place for them, maybe during the time that they want to be released to do their job outside there. CHAIRPERSON Okay, well I was getting to that now. You say that Joseph used zombis? MR MASHAMBA No, I've said Joseph was the person who committed ritual murder, I didn't say he used the zombis. CHAIRPERSON You said Mafune made these zombis for Joseph or did you not say that? MR MASHAMBA No, I didn't mention that. CHAIRPERSON Okay, whoever made it, what is wrong with the zombi? What is so bad about it? MR MASHAMBA It's a problem because there will be a person who will be taken and then be turned into a zombi and that person it's believed he or she is not dead, by then they will be making him to work very hard. CHAIRPERSON A slave? MR MASHAMBA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now where would they work? MR MASHAMBA I think they used to work in the fields which used to be cultivated. CHAIRPERSON And you've never seen over 20 years any zombi in this field or any field? MR MASHAMBA Yes but I'm not staying in the same village with that person, I'm staying in the other village. The only thing is that the villages are close by. CHAIRPERSON In your village there's no zombis? MR MASHAMBA No, there's no zombis we were only disturbed by this person who was committing ritual murder. CHAIRPERSON After 20 years don't you doubt the existence of the zombi? You've never seen one in 20 years, have you never ask yourself do these things really exist? MR MASHAMBA I simply believed that just there is a name that was a name zombi, it means that a thing called zombi did exist. CHAIRPERSON But have you never doubted that it exists? MR MASHAMBA No I have no doubt, I think from my perception I think they are there. CHAIRPERSON And you were told now these people involved themselves in zombis? MR MASHAMBA Could you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON You were told that Joseph and Mafune and those types of people were involved in the use of zombis? MR MASHAMBA With Joseph, Joseph was involved in ritual murder. Mafune was involved in zombis including his friends. They were involved also including witchcraft but Joseph was only involved in ritual murder. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. From your knowledge who in government did Joseph assist? MR MASHAMBA I didn't hear your question, could you please repeat? MS PATEL The question was from your knowledge who did Joseph assist, who did he help with his ritual murders? MR MASHAMBA He was helping himself. MS PATEL Did he himself hold any political position or position in government? MR MASHAMBA Yes he was speaker of the parliament. MS PATEL Okay I think I misunderstood your initial testimony then. Well perhaps you can explain, excuse my ignorance but if Mafune's speciality if one can call it that, was turning people into zombis and Joseph's was in ritual murders, why would Joseph go to Mafune for assistance? MR MASHAMBA It's because Joseph was a ritual murderer but he doesn't know the medicines that is why he had to go to Mafune who knows about the medicines. CHAIRPERSON As I understand it, he would commit the ritual murder, dissect the victim and take the necessary parts to Mafune to manufacture a pharmaceutical result. Do you follow? MS PATEL I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson. So then it seems that we sit here with the unusual position of somebody who holds some kind of political position who committed his own ritual murders in order to enhance his own power. CHAIRPERSON Sure enhance the idea that they used witchcraft to keep their political powers? MS PATEL Perhaps - well then I'm slightly confused, perhaps you can clarify this for me, would ritual murders be necessary for turning people into zombis? MR MASHAMBA No. MS PATEL Then I don't understand why Joseph would have gone to Mafune. CHAIRPERSON As I understand Ms Patel, Mafune was an expert in various fields. MS PATEL Sorry, according to the applicant, his expertise was turning into zombis and that is why he killed. CHAIRPERSON In addition to being a witchdoctor and he was able to make this muti or whatever was necessary to maintain power of Joseph. MS PATEL I'm sorry then Honourable Chairperson, my understanding of the applicant's testimony when I asked him initially why was Mafune pointed out by Thomas Madaw and he said because Mafune was turning people into zombis and then I went on to question him about well, who? CHAIRPERSON He said that, it's just that a specific issue there was he was pointed out by someone who informed them that he made people into zombis but another source told him about witchcraft and he believed that. MS PATEL Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson. Then I have no further questions thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL ADV SIGODI Do you remember the people who were with you when you went to kill France? MR MASHAMBA Yes I still remember them. ADV SIGODI Who were they, who were with you? MR MASHAMBA Eric Matosi, Frederick Matata and Thomas Madawe and the fourth one I think Richard Jawuke. ADV SIGODI Were they also charged in the criminal trial with you? MR MASHAMBA Yes they were also charged but differently. ADV SIGODI I mean for the same offence of killing France Khomogwe? MR MASHAMBA Yes that is correct. ADV SIGODI Were you found guilty do you know? MR MASHAMBA They were found guilty. ADV SIGODI Do you know if they've applied for amnesty? MR MASHAMBA No they did not apply. ADV SIGODI Are they still in prison? MR MASHAMBA They are out. ADV SIGODI How many years where you sentenced to? MR MASHAMBA I'm sentenced to 12 years of murder and one year of arson. ADV SIGODI And now this no go area in the village where the zombis are being kept, what is the name of that area? MR MASHAMBA Dindele. ADV SIGODI So if we wanted to go there and have an inspection in loco who would stop us there? MR MASHAMBA I'm told that something will come which you won't see disturbing you, preventing you from going there. CHAIRPERSON Who would say so? Who said that you'd be prevented from going there? MR MASHAMBA It's what I grew up hearing people talking like that and I've never heard of any person who have reached that place. CHAIRPERSON So you can't tell us where it is, you can't give us a place or a road to go? MR MASHAMBA I can assure you the road to that place, that that place I can assure you or point that place, that that is the place. CHAIRPERSON You can take us there? MR MASHAMBA Yes I can. CHAIRPERSON You're not scared? MR MASHAMBA I think I will not reach that place. CHAIRPERSON Don't you think it's time you start thinking about the existence of this place? I mean accept you've believed it all the years but don't you think it's time you started thinking for yourself about it whether it really exists or not? MR MASHAMBA I believe they are there. ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) of what association or movement or party or what? INTERPRETER The interpreters didn't hear that first statement, could you please repeat? ADV DE JAGER The soccer player, Mr Pula who disappeared, you told us that he was the secretary of some association. What was the name of that association? MR MASHAMBA I didn't say he was the secretary of the organisation, he was the secretary of the meetings which we used to hold, he was the secretary who used to write the minutes. ADV DE JAGER Now who were you people holding these meetings where he was the secretary? Who was the chairman and what was the name of this meeting? MR MASHAMBA We'd simply just hold meetings if say that there is a person who is not living in a good way with other people then we just hold meetings and discuss about it. ADV DE JAGER The whole community or the youth or who? MR MASHAMBA The youth. ADV DE JAGER I see, so he was a secretary, he acted as secretary for a youth meeting? MR MASHAMBA Yes. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further witnesses. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VAN RENSBURG Chairperson, I have no witnesses to call. MS PATEL Same here Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg, have you got any argument? MR VAN RENSBURG IN ARGUMENT Yes, just a short argument, Mr Chairperson. As the learned advocate has pointed out the 2nd February, the 11th February was a very significant day in the history of this country. I can hardly think of any other event that symbolised freedom for the majority of the citizens of this country more than the release of Mr Mandela on the 11th February but at the same time there were a group of people running around still fighting a war that was already won. This just doesn't make sense. The applicant has certainly not been able to give an explanation for this strange behaviour. The applicant has furthermore not been able to explain how the politicians would become powerless if they did succeed to kill all the witches in the country. It is significant that this applicant is not basing his application on the attempt or an attempt to make the area ungovernable as the previous applicants did. The fact of the ungovernability of the country was never raised by himself. In the circumstances I'm of the opinion that is my instructions Mr Chairperson that the element of a political motive was again not proved and found in this instance and again I have to argue that this application has to fail on this basis. That is all. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no address. CHAIRPERSON Mr van Rensburg, do you accept that there was a belief in the community that members in political authority resorted to some kind of assistance with the strange powers that witches allegedly had? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I can well concede that but I still don't think that that should be end of the argument. CHAIRPERSON I accept that, I just want to know what your instructions were on this belief whether your clients or the deceased was party to that or not is another matter. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I understand that. CHAIRPERSON I'm just talking of a general perception in the area here. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes but I would just add that that would be the can I say supernatural powers available to any other member of the community as well? CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you. Mr Ndou, we don't need to hear you? MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is this the end of this matter? MR NDOU That is so. CHAIRPERSON We will reserve judgement on this as well. MR NDOU Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Is there any point in starting a new matter now? MS PATEL It's already 4.15, almost 4.20 Honourable Chairperson, I believe that there's a problem with the sound technicians. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS