amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-17 THOHOYANDOU 3 SAMUEL KUDZINGANA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53935&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99111517_tho_991117th.htm CHAIRPERSON ... the same as far as the Panel is concerned and for the applicants I'm going to ask the representatives in matter in which the victim Frans Mavhandu is involved, to announce himself for the purposes of the record. So can you announce yourself for the purposes of the record, please? MR MUSHASHA Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members, my name is Milo Jackson Mushasha, advocate of the Supreme Court. I represent the victims in this matter. MR NDOU My name is Patrick Ndou, I'm an attorney from the firm Uys & Louw Inc in Thoyohandou. I represent the applicants. MS PATEL Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Ndou. MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, I now call applicant 7254, that is Samuel Kudzingana. SAMUEL KUDZINGANA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kudzingana you are an applicant appearing before the Amnesty Committee and you've deposed a document which has been signed by yourself in front of a commissioner of oaths. Do you have any problem if I read this document into the record? MR KUDZINGANA I have no objection. CHAIRPERSON You don't have to read him the record Mr Ndou, we have been trained to read. MR NDOU Okay Mr Chairman, thank you, will it be necessary for me or will I just allow the Committee to take note of it? CHAIRPERSON Yes we'll have to read it and take note of it, let's mark that Exhibit A. MR NDOU Thank you. Now you were born on the 25th of December 1966, is that correct? MR KUDZINGANA Yes it's correct. MR NDOU Now you've sent an application to the Amnesty Committee asking that you be granted amnesty in respect of which offences? MR KUDZINGANA I've got fifteen years for murder and three years for arson. MR NDOU And murder in respect of who? MR KUDZINGANA In respect of Frans Mavhandu. MR NDOU And the arson? MR KUDZINGANA The arson occurred in Frans Mavhandu's home. MR NDOU Now could you explain to the Committee as to how it came about that this happened? MR KUDZINGANA Yes I can. MR NDOU Please do so. CHAIRPERSON If I understand you correctly then Mr Ndou, he's making application for amnesty in respect of the murder of Mr Mavhandu, and one count of arson in respect of the home of Mr Mavhandu. MR NDOU That is so. CHAIRPERSON Both occurred on the same day? MR NDOU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You can proceed. It happened in the same incident broadly speaking? MR NDOU That is so. You can proceed. MR KUDZINGANA On the 6th of March 1990, it happened a meeting was held at the dam where we were discussing the issue of witchcraft - how are we going to deal with witches seeing that they are there in our community, because there was another meeting which was held before the 6th which happened at the chief's kraal, headman Nmbuleni Simon Sintumole. There we discussed the same issue that there are witches in our community and how can we deal with this issue. Then the youth decided that youth were in danger because there was nothing that they could do in the village, so the youth decided to burn the witches. The main aim being that the Venda Government should be ungovernable, and as such we decided before the 6th of March where the youth organised themselves and went on the 6th. After the meeting there at the dam, myself, I was from Madumbija on that day, so as I was coming using the path between the bushes I found the people going to the place the home of the deceased and then I joined them ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Were you at the meeting? MR KUDZINGANA No I didn't attend that meeting. CHAIRPERSON I'm talking about the one at the dam. MR KUDZINGANA Yes the very same one I didn't attend, I joined them on the way to that place. CHAIRPERSON Why did you join them? MR KUDZINGANA I was invited so I joined and then I was told where to go. CHAIRPERSON Why did you join? Okay you were invited now. People get invited to weddings and whatever else. Why did you join? MR KUDZINGANA On that time there was no time for reasoning as to where we are going so there was no time for questioning anybody or to ask anybody because there were so many. So on my arrival I decided to do what they were doing at the very same time. That is how I joined and then I went with them to the home of the deceased. Before we arrived there we found the deceased accompanying certain two men. I'm not sure if they were visitors on that day. Then on our arrival the deceased went back to his home taking two big knives and when the mob arrived the deceased was prepared to defend himself. Then the mob decided to throw stones at him. There at home was his wife who also went out when the mob arrived and ran away and the man remained. Then the man ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How big was this mob? MR KUDZINGANA About 500. CHAIRPERSON Now what were the mob going to do there? MR KUDZINGANA This mob went there because Frans was suspected to be a witch and then other people I think in the meeting which was held where witches were identified people like Frans was also identified. Such kinds of people were once told that they must be evicted and then Frans was one of the people who refused to be evicted. ADV DE JAGER Did you know Frans? MR KUDZINGANA Yes I knew him. ADV DE JAGER Were you staying in the same village? MR KUDZINGANA Yes. ADV DE JAGER Did you attend the meeting at the headman? MR KUDZINGANA The meeting at the chief's kraal, I didn't attend that one. ADV DE JAGER You didn't attend that meeting, you didn't attend the meeting at the dam? MR KUDZINGANA No I didn't attend them. CHAIRPERSON What was the mob going to his house for? MR KUDZINGANA I discovered that the mob was going to ask him to go because he was accused of practising witchcraft. CHAIRPERSON When did you find that out? MR KUDZINGANA On the very same day on which these things happened. CHAIRPERSON Before or after they reached the deceased's house? MR KUDZINGANA I think it's before we arrived, when I saw the deceased coming out with those big pangas or knives. Then I asked somebody whether we are here to ask him to go and then I was told in passing that you must know that people who are witches are expected to leave this village because it's known for a long time that witches must leave that village. CHAIRPERSON Did you agree with that? MR KUDZINGANA Yes I agreed with that Your Honour. ADV DE JAGER Why should witches be chased away, what was the reason? MR KUDZINGANA Witches were alleged to be giving the people just like the ministers, they were giving the ministers ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The government, are you talking about the government? MR KUDZINGANA Yes I'm talking about the former Venda Government. CHAIRPERSON You say the witches were thought to be giving what ...? MR KUDZINGANA They were thought to be giving the high officials, the people who were running the Venda Government, they were assisting by giving them muti so that they can be intact in their positions. CHAIRPERSON What was wrong with that? MR KUDZINGANA During that time the Venda Government said it must be incorporated because people were no longer interested in it because the people in the government were said to be committing ritual murder and corruption in the very same government. CHAIRPERSON In other words as I understand your evidence is that the people of Venda wanted reincorporation and the ministers wanted to keep their positions as a separate homeland. MR KUDZINGANA Ja they were supporting that. CHAIRPERSON And it was thought that they were able to do so with the assistance of witchcraft. MR KUDZINGANA Yes that's the truth. CHAIRPERSON And is that the reason witches were then targeted? MR KUDZINGANA That is what was done. CHAIRPERSON So if the witches were not there the government officials would not have the power to continue with what the people didn't want. MR KUDZINGANA Our aim was that they must no longer be in the government or they must take the government back. CHAIRPERSON Did you believe that the deceased was a witch or wizard or whatever? MR KUDZINGANA I grew (up) knowing that it is alleged that he was a witch. CHAIRPERSON But did you believe that? MR KUDZINGANA Yes I used to believe that. CHAIRPERSON You say you used to, don't you believe in witches any more? MR KUDZINGANA I still believe in it. ADV DE JAGER You went there to ask the deceased to leave the vicinity? ADV DE JAGER So his eviction and his death was one and the same thing because he was told long ago that he must go, and seeing that he was not going then it was thought it's proper for him to be killed because others who were appointed as witches by then already gone but he remained. MR KUDZINGANA Did you agree with his death in those circumstances? MR KUDZINGANA Yes I agreed that he must die under those circumstances. ADV DE JAGER But I want to refer you to paragraph 23 of your affidavit. You are now telling us that you went there with the intention to kill him, is that right. MR KUDZINGANA Yes that's right. ADV DE JAGER In paragraph 23 you said "I learned from the group that they were going to the deceased's kraal to force him to leave the area, just like other identified people who had already left." So you went there with the intention to give him a trekpas and not to kill him, according to what you say here. Now can you tell us what's the truth? MR KUDZINGANA The truth is that all those two things were mixed up because the person was told to leave the village and he didn't do that. And then people decided that maybe he's still going to refuse to go because he was still there. So what was left for him was for him to be killed. CHAIRPERSON In your affidavit you say when he was being stoned and burned, you threw stones at him. Is that true? MR KUDZINGANA Yes it's true. CHAIRPERSON You knew he's going to die then? MR KUDZINGANA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now in your affidavit you say that when you were on your way there the people went there with the intention of telling him to go but somehow that decision changed soon thereafter. When that decision changed to killing him, did you agree with that? MR KUDZINGANA At that moment there was not time to debate, it ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm not asking you if you debated. I'm not asking you if it was a democratic decision. I'm asking, there was a time that people threw stones at him and doused him with petrol and burnt him. Did you agree with that? MR KUDZINGANA Yes I agreed with that. CHAIRPERSON Yes and in fact you participated in that. MR KUDZINGANA Yes I participated. MR NDOU That is all Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Now is there anything that you want to say perhaps to the deceased's family? MR KUDZINGANA Yes I have something to say. CHAIRPERSON Please do so. MR KUDZINGANA I am truly asking for forgiveness in terms of what happened because now I realise that it's something which happened which to the members of the family is unacceptable and very painful, and as such I'm saying. So I'm asking for forgiveness for what happened which is painful to you because it happened during those days and I don't think that it will ever happen again, things of that nature will ever happen and as such I am asking that they forgive me so that I can come back and live with people at home. I think I will end there. ADV DE JAGER But you're still believing in witches. MR KUDZINGANA Yes I still believe. ADV DE JAGER Wouldn't you kill a witch again if you find one? MR KUDZINGANA Could you please repeat your question? ADV DE JAGER Why wouldn't you kill a witch if you find one? MR KUDZINGANA It's because the aim in the past was to make the Venda Government to be ungovernable, but now we no longer talk of the Venda Government. If I go out now I'll be going to the government that I was in need of then to such an extent that I think I will live with no other problem and that the issue of witches which are still existing at this present moment. I am listening to the radio sometimes, and I have never heard of a mob which was just like the one we used to have in the past. Those mobs are no longer there. It's over, it's a thing of the past, because the aim which was aimed at has happened. That is why I think those things are no longer there. I still believe however that witches are still there but they are no longer targets but they were targets during those days because we were trying to overcome the government or to let the government fall we have start with the roots just like a tree. If you want a big tree to fall then you have to start with the roots. CHAIRPERSON So it was wrong of the witches that time to help the government to stay in power? MR KUDZINGANA Yes it was very wrong. CHAIRPERSON They used to involve themselves in ritual murders and children were killed? MR KUDZINGANA Could you please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON Witches were somehow involved in ritual murders, correct? MR KUDZINGANA Yes correct. CHAIRPERSON Is that still the position? People disappearing, people dying? MR KUDZINGANA Now the people are not being killed ritually like in the past, because in the past it was the ministers of the former government who were committing ritual murders, but now we are no longer talking about the ministers of the Venda Government. As such they no longer have powers. CHAIRPERSON Forget about the ministers, I'm not talking about those kind of politics. I'm asking are ritual murders for one or other reason still being committed today? MR KUDZINGANA Nowadays I'm not sure since it's long that I have been in jail but I hear ritual murders are no longer committed. CHAIRPERSON Let's assume this then that they are committed. Do you not find anything wrong with that? MR KUDZINGANA It will depend on who - could you please repeat your question again? CHAIRPERSON If there are still ritual murders being committed today, do you think it's right? MR KUDZINGANA I think it's not right, and I don't think the government of the day will accept ritual murders. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Ndou. MR NDOU That is all Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Mushasha. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MUSHASHA Will you please tell me and the Chairman and the Committee what you actually did in the killing process? MR KUDZINGANA I have already explained that I killed the deceased by throwing stones at him and burning the house of the deceased, throwing stones and burning resulted in the death of the deceased. As such I have participated. MR MUSHASHA With what did you burn the house? MR KUDZINGANA I think that the thing which is capable of burning is fire. MR MUSHASHA Did you also make use of petrol in the process of burning the house? MR KUDZINGANA Somebody sprinkled or poured petrol and lit and I was one of the people who lit the match. MR MUSHASHA Do you happen to know the deceased's wife, Chifloa? MR KUDZINGANA Maybe I'm confused by the name, I don't know if she's called Chiflora or who, I know here and I can point her out, but the name might be a problem. MR MUSHASHA Do you know the deceased's wife Swido ...(indistinct)? MR KUDZINGANA Yes I know her. MR MUSHASHA My instructions are that you were actually seen chopping the deceased with a panga, what do you say to this? MR KUDZINGANA That is something which I don't know. MR MUSHASHA The deceased's wife says she actually saw you chopping the deceased with a panga. Do you say it's not true. MR KUDZINGANA That is not true because I have already mentioned that on our arrival the deceased's wife went out and ran away. I can't understand, when it happened, she was not there. ADV DE JAGER That's not the question, we don't know where she was. The question is simple, did you chop him with a panga or not? MR KUDZINGANA No I didn't chop him with a panga. MR MUSHASHA Did you see anyone in your presence chopping the deceased with a panga? MR KUDZINGANA What I saw was when the the deceased chopped one omongst the mob. When the deceased chopped on of us on the hand, I saw that. I did not witness the deceased being chopped. MR MUSHASHA There was also evidence in court that the deceased was chopped with a pick. Did you see that happening? MR KUDZINGANA No I know that he was chopped with a pick. MR MUSHASHA Who did that? MR KUDZINGANA Accused number 1 Justice Rama Brother who is also present here. MR MUSHASHA I still want to understand how it came about that you joined this group which proceeded to the deceased's kraal. MR KUDZINGANA I have already explained to this Court that I joined the mob which was going to Frans' kraal, then I went with them. MR MUSHASHA Now what made you join this group going to the deceased's kraal? MR KUDZINGANA I joined the group because during that time things were corrected by a mob. That is the youth were doing nothing but the only thing to do was to correct things which were not in order. Now ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Mushasha, is it being denied that a group came to that house and attacked the house as a result of which the deceased died and the house was burned? MR MUSHASHA No it's not denied. CHAIRPERSON Is it being denied that this witness was part of that group. MR MUSHASHA No it's not being denied. CHAIRPERSON So what's the point wanting to know why he joined a group or how he joined a group. MR MUSHASHA It's because in this evidence he said he was invited but now my instructions are that no he was not invited the group, he was actually in the meeting which preceded the procession to go there. CHAIRPERSON Let's get down to that. MR MUSHASHA In your evidence you stated you were invited to join the group which was proceeding to the deceased's kraal. But now that differs from my instruction. My instructions are that now you were actually in the meeting at the dam, which meeting decided to proceed to the deceased's kraal. What do you say to that? MR KUDZINGANA That is not true. MR MUSHASHA My further instructions are to the effect that you were also part of the meeting which decided that the deceased should be killed because he was a wizard. MR KUDZINGANA I think you are asking me something which I didn't say and seeing that I haven't said that then it means I don't what you are asking me that I was at the meeting because what I'm saying today is what I know. What you are asking me you might have heard about it by a person who was not in the meeting. What I'm telling you is what I know. MR MUSHASHA My instructions in this regard is that while on the one hand you admit participating in the killing of the deceased, you are not making a full disclosure prior to the killing. MR KUDZINGANA On the day on which the deceased was killed was on the 6th and I have explained how I joined the mob and the like. Something which I don't know, maybe something outside the date of the 6th, but what happened on the 6th is what I'm trying to explain. MR MUSHASHA The impression that I get is that you are trying to deny the fact that you participated in the decision that day that the deceased should be killed, should be removed from that area. MR KUDZINGANA Yes I'm denying that. Maybe it is because Your Honourable, maybe you are not sure, you must know that I am not a citizen of Shuzi(?), I was staying at Madombeja, so many meetings were there but I was staying at Madombeja. It might have happened on the day that I was not there because I was staying at Madombeja attending school there. I don't know that the thing you are referring to of which date and where I was on that day when you are trying to force me to agree that I was there. MR MUSHASHA I'm not forcing you to agree but what I'm putting to you are my instructions which I carry from the victims. Mr Chairman, maybe I missed the response hereto. ADV DE JAGER I don't think he has given another response, his last response was that he wasn't at the meeting. MR MUSHASHA I'm not trying to make you repeat the reason for the killing, but I just want to be clear on this point, I just want to see how you link up the killing with the politics of the day. MR KUDZINGANA I have already explained that we decided to kill him because we believed he is the one who was capable of giving the leaders who were leading in the government medicines so that they will remain in the government, even if things are wrong. They would just stay there and then people would not see all the things which would be happening in the government. So they used to get medicine from the witches, that is why we targeted the witches so that we can go further from where we were intending to go. MR MUSHASHA I understand that but the problem which I have is that this is not the way you put it in your affidavit in particular number 6. I hope you are aware of what the contents of paragraph 6 is. MR KUDZINGANA Yes I know. MR MUSHASHA Do you think the contents of paragraph 6 is similar to what you are saying now? MR KUDZINGANA Yes it's the same because I'm saying witches were used to give the people in high positions in the government medicine so that they can remain intact and be powerful. So when we tried to make the government fall it was impossible because of these witches and these witches were also protected by the police whom we suspected that they were supposed to protect the community, but then they were protecting the witches and the police are the government officials of the government of the day. So in that way we realised that these people were all a big obstacle of preventing us from re-incorporating our government to the Republic of South Africa where we were really intending to do so. MR MUSHASHA Do you still believe that the deceased was a wizard? MR KUDZINGANA No I grew up knowing that I think I will still die living in that, or knowing that, because since I grew up I don't know if this thing will ever be erased from my mind. MR MUSHASHA Do you believe that the deceased was actually a wizard? CHAIRPERSON He saying that till the day he dies he will be ...(intervention) MR KUDZINGANA That means that Your Honourable, because I'm saying that till the day I die, seeing that I'm still alive, then it means I still believe that. MR MUSHASHA What is that deed which the deceased did which caused you to believe that he was actually a wizard? MR KUDZINGANA The deceased was alleged to be responsible in bewitching a certain person from Mabandu who was said to be the father of Moses Mabanmdu. It was heard that he is the one who was responsible for his death. MR MUSHASHA Finally I just want to put it to you, according to my instructions the deceased was not a witch. MR KUDZINGANA Your Honourable, I'm trying to explain, it might be the fourth time or the tenth time that ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER You told us you still believe it and it's not necessary to try to be funny with the advocate asking you questions. MR KUDZINGANA I apologise for that Your Honourable. MR MUSHASHA No further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MUSHASHA CHAIRPERSON Mrs Patel. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, there's just two aspects I'd like clarity on. Mr Kudzingana, in your application to us on page 8. In response to a question as to the occupation and addresses of the victim, can I just ask, excuse my ignorance, but is Welder a name of a place or is that a reference to an occupation. MR KUDZINGANA Could you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON If you look at page 8 of your formal application, not the affidavit. On paragraph 9c the question there is, 9c.2, the occupations and or addresses of the victims. There is a word "Welder." What does that refer to, his occupation or his address? MR KUDZINGANA A welder, it's a person who welds things. CHAIRPERSON So it's his occupation. MR KUDZINGANA Yes it's an occupation. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, is that Frans Mavhandu's occupation? MR KUDZINGANA Yes he was self-employed doing that. MS PATEL Okay is that your case that besides the fact that he was a welder he was also a wizard? MS PATEL Can you tell me Sir, when did you decide to become a supporter of the ANC? MR KUDZINGANA Since I got to know that there is a person called Mandela. I learned that there is Mandela and and he's a leader of the ANC and he's arrested and he's in jail and then started to know about the ANC and then I started to support it during that time. MS PATEL Okay how long before this incident did you realise that? MR KUDZINGANA Knowing about Mandela is something which is from long ago, but I know about about Mandela. I think that I started to know about Mandela that he was in prison in terms of political things and the leader of the ANC and I started to support the ANC and it's quite long ago. MS PATEL The question is very simple, when did you first become a supporter of the ANC, how many years before this incident, how many months before this incident or when, give us an estimation? MR KUDZINGANA I think three years back, then I was aware that Mandela is the leader of the ANC and then it came that Mandela was released and then we celebrated his release and I know what I'm saying. MS PATEL In your affidavit to us in paragraph 15, as part of your motivation, as part of your political motivation you state that at the time of this incident, that you were still fighting for the release of Mr Mandela. Yet by that time he was already released. MR KUDZINGANA Yes by then Mandela was already released but then the work here in Venda that we were supposed to do was not necessarily to fight for Mandela, the most important thing here was the incorporation of the Venda Government into South Africa. It means that even if Mandela was released then our struggle was still continuing referring to Venda. That Mandela was released doesn't stop our struggle or what we were intending because our aim was for this government of Venda to go back to South Africa. MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR NDOU Nothing further Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI Do you know Albert Thembani? MR KUDZINGANA Yes I knew him. ADV SIGODI I didn't get the answer. MR KUDZINGANA He's outside now. I mean his not here with us, he's outside the jail. ADV SIGODI Was he also convicted of this? MR KUDZINGANA Yes. When the policemen were searching the people he was the one who was wanted on this case which I'm also involved in. CHAIRPERSON Did he stand trial with you on this charge? MR KUDZINGANA He was not arrested. ADV SIGODI I got the impression when you said that he was outside that he was arrested and that he has since been released. Could you clarify that? MR KUDZINGANA Maybe I didn't understand it. He was just arrested on a different case, not this one I'm involved in. ADV SIGODI So what you're saying in paragraph 30 is that he is the one who doused the deceased with petrol and set him alight? MR KUDZINGANA Yes. ADV SIGODI Thanks. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON What about Mr Thembani(?) MS PATEL Unfortunately Honourable Chairperson these affidavits came to us during the course of this hearing, we haven't had an opportunity to inform him. I might also add for the record that supplementary affidavits were requested a long time ago from the applicant. (blank in the recording) MR NDOU (?) No he's not here. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, how sure are we that the applicants received those letters requesting further particulars? MS PATEL I believe that they were faxed to their coordinator Honourable Chairperson, I can just get the details for you now. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndou can you put any - were your clients asked for further particulars. MR NDOU Mr Chairman, all I know is that the documents from the TRC only arrived on the 12th, that's all I can say. We gave the affidavits in before the documents from the TRC arrived. CHAIRPERSON No we're not talking about that, we're talking about separate letters. MR NDOU I'm not aware of any letters that were sent. MS PATEL If I might add in respect of the bundles going out ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Can you just find out from one or two of your clients whether that occurred? Ms Patel if you can instigate a written response to our questions from that coordinator and from the person who sent the letters through the coordinator. If the applicants really got this notice or not. MS PATEL I'll do so Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I trust it will be appreciated that what we plan to do now, just going to extend the incarceration of the applicants and possibly to look forward to their own, but if they did receive the notice then it's their own fault. MR NDOU Honourable Chairperson I spoke to the coordinator of the applicants themselves, they have a group of their own and he indicates to me that he is not aware of any such letter. If a letter was ever sent then it could possibly have been sent to Mr Leguli who is presently not here ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Who's he? MR NDOU He is the one who was coordinating this committee of the applicants. He's a CO for the town council of Messina. Now we've been trying to get him since ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Has he been appointed by the applicants themselves? MR NDOU Yes. CHAIRPERSON So they chose him? MR NDOU Yes. CHAIRPERSON So if he received that notice, he sat with it, then it's his fault. Anyway Ms Patel I would like the written report on that score. We find ourselves in the position where we have to comply with the Act and in terms of the evidence now given, one Mr Thembani has been implicated in this matter. According to the Act, where a person is implicated in the crime he must be given notice of that and given an ...(break in recording) I have given an instruction to the Evidence Leader, calling for a written report to this Committee on what actually happened because she is in possession of a copy of a letter requesting this type of information about implicated people and amongst other issues. It seems that the applicants themselves appointed a coordinator. I'm not too sure whether it reached that coordinator. The fact of the matter is that a response to that letter never reached the TRC and therefore they could not and did not send the required notice to Mr Thembani. We are in a position now, in order to comply with the Act, we are compelled therefore to postpone the matter sine die, and unfortunately it means that those who could possibly have been released, would have to wait that much longer so that Mr Thembani, has a chance, if he so chooses, to deal with these allegations. It is an unfortunate situation for the applicants but one that we cannot avoid. I apologise for the inconvenience. MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, sorry to cut you short but I found the copy of the letter that was in fact faxed to Mr Lerule on the 6th of October already in which these applicants names appear requesting the particulars to all supplementary affidavits. CHAIRPERSON Where was it faxed to? MS PATEL It was faxed on the 6th of October. CHAIRPERSON To whom. MS PATEL To Mr Lerule. CHAIRPERSON Who's he? MS PATEL He's the coordinator Honourable Chairperson, the chosen representative for IV(?) applicants. CHAIRPERSON Is he the member attached to the Messina Municipality? MS PATEL That is correct. He is also the person who assisted all the applicants in filling out the application forms and sending them to our offices. CHAIRPERSON Well my attention has been drawn to the fact that the Evidence Leader has in fact a copy and proof of faxing that letter to your chosen coordinator, nothing happened since. I'm not going to say what to do about that, that is for you to decide, the fact of the matter is that we are unable to proceed with this matter and unfortunately it will have to be postponed sine die. It is so ordered. MATTER POSTPONED SINE DIE Is there any other matter? MS PATEL Yes there is Honourable Chairperson if you'll just grant me a moment. MR MUSHASHA Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, may I be excused? CHAIRPERSON Will you just please explain to your clients what has happened and the reasons for the postponement? MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, the next matter on the roll is that of the murder of one Gumant, the amnesty applicant's name is Matelo and in terms of your list it's number H. CHAIRPERSON There is no specific appearance for any family members? MS PATEL No they were notified though, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What is the position about Mr Van Rensburg's interests in other matters? MS PATEL I believe that Mr Ndou indicated that he would try and locate the applicant Matelo, perhaps he can give us a report on that. MR NDOU Thank you Honourable Chairman, we proceeded to the applicant's home, yesterday and we didn't find him but we left a message that they should tell him to come today, so hopefully we think he will be able to come today. CHAIRPERSON No we don't want Mr Van Rensburg to waste his time here. MR NDOU I understand he's arrived now, I understand he's here, he's just gone out to the toilet. NAME