amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-17 DURBAN 3 SIBUSISO ERIC TSHABALALA MURDER OF ARTHUR DUNCAN JOHNSTON https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53942&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99111518_dbn_991117db.htm ON RESUMPTION MR SEWPAL My name is Sewpal, spelled S-E-W-P-A-L and the initial is V. I appear for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sewpal. And the Leader of Evidence? MR MAPOMA I am Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Yes, Mr Sewpal, is there anything you want to put on record? MR SEWPAL Thank you. I think it's quite clear that the applicant is bringing an application for amnesty on the basis that the offence that he committed was committed with a political motive, or political objective. I think that we have the duty to begin and in the circumstances I will call the applicant. It will possibly be necessary for me to call two witnesses as well, those were the other accused that participated in the offence who are also here today. I call the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Very well, Mr Sewpal. SIBUSISO ERIC TSHABALALA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Sewpal. MR SEWPAL Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR SEWPAL Mr Tshabalala, how old are you? MR TSHABALALA 35 years old. MR SEWPAL Where did you live during 1990? MR TSHABALALA Estcourt. MR SEWPAL Were there any political parties that were active in that area during that period? MR TSHABALALA Yes, there were. MR SEWPAL Which parties were these? MR TSHABALALA The IFP and the ANC. MR SEWPAL Were you a member or sympathiser of either of these parties? MR TSHABALALA I was a supporter of the ANC. MR SEWPAL What other political party was active in the area at the time, you said? MR TSHABALALA It was ANC and IFP. MR SEWPAL Do you recall what the relationship was between these two parties at that time? MR TSHABALALA There was no good relationship, there was violence. MR SEWPAL Were you involved in any violence with the IFP, or are you aware of anybody else that was involved in any violence with them? MR TSHABALALA Yes, there were. MR SEWPAL Sorry, I'm not sure, were you involved in violence or do you know of somebody else who was involved in violence? MR TSHABALALA Yes, there are people that were involved. MR SEWPAL Is there any particular person that you want to tell this Committee about? MR TSHABALALA There were people who were fighting, ANC and IFP people. MR SEWPAL Alright. Did you get yourself involved in the murder of the deceased in this case? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I was present. MR SEWPAL Did you participate in the killing of the deceased? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I did. MR SEWPAL Now, could you please tell us very carefully and slowly how you got yourself involved in the killing of the deceased? MR TSHABALALA The deceased was selling guns to the IFP. Mandla's mother was killed because of IFP, killed her using those weapons which they've bought from the deceased. We went to the farm because we were looking for the guns. MR SEWPAL Could you at this point tell us who is Mandla, who you mentioned just now? MR TSHABALALA Accused number 1, Mandla Khuzwayo, the one who is here behind me. MR SEWPAL What happened to his mother? MR TSHABALALA They killed her and they burned down the house together with her. MR SEWPAL Okay. Please proceed. MR TSHABALALA After they killed Mandla's mother, we went to the farm because we were looking for guns. When we arrived on that farm, we found a white man. He wasn't inside his house, he was near the kraal. MR SEWPAL Can you tell me, you said when "we" arrived, who else are you talking about? MR TSHABALALA Pilane Mutshiako, Mandla Tshabalala, the three of us. MR SEWPAL Now what did you go to this farmer's place for? MR TSHABALALA We were looking for guns or we wanted guns in that farm. MR SEWPAL And how did you plan to get these guns? MR TSHABALALA We planned that on our arrival there, we will catch the white man and take his guns. Our intention was not to kill him, but to take his guns from him. MR SEWPAL What did you want to do with those guns? Why did you want to take them away from him? MR TSHABALALA We needed them in our organisation. We were the ANC and we didn't have guns, but IFP had guns because the white man was providing them with those guns. MR SEWPAL As far as you were aware, do you know where this white man was getting his guns from? MR TSHABALALA I don't know where he was getting the guns but all I know is that he was a soldier. MR SEWPAL How do you know that he was a soldier? MR TSHABALALA Sometimes we will see him in soldiers uniform. MR SEWPAL And now did you actually see him supplying firearms to the IFP, or how do you get this knowledge? MR TSHABALALA I was told so by Thulane Mutshiane, my co-accused. MR SEWPAL Now you mentioned in your amnesty application form that "We did see him on one occasion where he sold hand guns and rifles to Inkatha Freedom Party supporters." Is that statement correct? MR TSHABALALA Yes, it is true, but he was seen by Pilane Mutshiako. MR SEWPAL But did you see him as well, or was it only Pilane who saw this? MR TSHABALALA Pilane saw him. MR SEWPAL Okay, so it's incorrectly recorded in the form then? MR TSHABALALA Yes. MR SEWPAL Okay, proceed. MR TSHABALALA We arrived in his farm. He grabbed me and he pulled me down and he stood on top of my body. Pilane Mutshiako came with an iron and hit him on his back of his head and then he fell down. As he was lying down, we started stabbing him, whilst he was lying down. MR SEWPAL What happened after that? MR TSHABALALA After we finished stabbing him, there was a dog near his body and that dog didn't want to leave. MR SEWPAL As far as you are aware, was the deceased still alive at this time, or not? MR TSHABALALA I think he was dead. MR SEWPAL Okay. Proceed please. MR TSHABALALA We cut his body and we removed his liver and we gave the dog his liver because we wanted the dog to eat that liver so that it's attention is towards the liver and not to us. MR SEWPAL What did you do thereafter? MR TSHABALALA There was a fire in his house. We took his body and we threw it in that boiler room. We saw a car approaching and that car was with police. We ran away and as I was inside the house, the police saw me and they took me from that house. I was on top of the wardrobe inside the house. MR SEWPAL Before the police vehicle, did you at any stage enter the house of the deceased, you or any one of the other accused with you? MR TSHABALALA Before the police arrived, I didn't enter his house. I only entered his house when the police approached. MR SEWPAL I see and did you find any firearms in his house or in the vicinity of his house? MR TSHABALALA No we didn't, we looked for them but we didn't. MR SEWPAL Okay. What happened thereafter? MR TSHABALALA Police came and they arrested us. We were taken to the police station. MR SEWPAL How do you feel about the fact that you assisted in killing this person? MR TSHABALALA I feel a great remorse about my actions and I would like to apologise even to the deceased and to God and the family. I know that what I've done wasn't the right thing to do. It is very sad and also I would like to apologise to the community at large. MR SEWPAL What would you say your motive in killing the deceased was? MR TSHABALALA It is because of the violence that started when IFP killed Mandla's mother and in my view, we blamed the white man because he was selling guns to the IFP. MR SEWPAL That is the evidence of this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEWPAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sewpal. Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mr Tshabalala, I take it that you were not involved in the violence between the ANC and the IFP, is that correct? MR TSHABALALA That's correct. I only took part when I saw that it was getting worse. ADV SANDI Can you just explain, what did you do when you saw that violence was getting worse? MR TSHABALALA I don't understand your question. ADV SANDI Did you say you did not get involved in the violence that was taking place between the ANC and the IFP? MR TSHABALALA Yes. ADV SANDI And you only got involved when you saw that it was becoming worse? MR TSHABALALA Yes. ADV SANDI What did you do? MR TSHABALALA What I did is my participating in the killing of this white man. MR MAPOMA Thank you Sir. And I take it that you were not a member of the ANC? Is that correct? MR TSHABALALA It is not correct because I was. MR MAPOMA But when you were asked whether you were a member of the ANC you said you were a supporter, isn't it so? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I'm a supporter. I don't know whether it's different in English or Zulu, but what I said is ...(intervention) MR MAPOMA Let me help you. You were not a member of the ANC, but you were the supporter of the ANC. MR TSHABALALA Yes. MR MAPOMA You did not know the policies of the ANC did you? MR TSHABALALA Not every policy of the ANC. MR MAPOMA Were you aware that the ANC had no policy that the white man must be killed? MR TSHABALALA I would like the interpreter to interpret this thing for me again. I don't understand. MR MAPOMA Let me put it like this. The ANC had no policy that white men had to be killed. Were you aware of that? MR TSHABALALA No, I didn't know. MR MAPOMA When you went to that farm, you have said that your intention of going there was to get weapons. Do you remember that? MR TSHABALALA Yes, that's correct. MR MAPOMA And you went on to say you had no intention to kill him, do you recall that as well? MR TSHABALALA Yes, that's correct. MR MAPOMA Now, why did you kill him? MR TSHABALALA It is because he started fighting with me. He was killed by mistake, after we realised that he was fighting. We started killing him when we saw that he was attacking us. MR MAPOMA Was he armed? MR TSHABALALA Yes, he was. He had two iron rods in his hands. MR MAPOMA Are you saying he had one iron rod this side and one iron rod this side? Is that what you're saying? MR TSHABALALA Yes, that's what I'm saying. MR MAPOMA Oh and were you armed? MR TSHABALALA We were armed with knives. MR MAPOMA Who had a knife, was it you? MR TSHABALALA The two of us. MR MAPOMA Each of you had a knife, is that so? MR TSHABALALA Yes, that's correct. MR MAPOMA Were you the only two who were involved? MR TSHABALALA Three of us. MR MAPOMA And what did the third one have? MR TSHABALALA He had a pipe, that's the pipe he used to hit the white man. MR MAPOMA Is that Mutshiako? MR TSHABALALA Yes, it's Mutshiako. ADV SANDI You said he hit him on the neck with the pipe and the deceased fell down to the ground? MR TSHABALALA Yes, he hit him in his head. ADV SANDI Yes, but why did you kill him? Why did you stab him whilst he was lying on the ground, if it was not your intention to kill him? You had not gone there to kill him, you had gone there to get arms from him. MR TSHABALALA Yes. The reason we did so, it was because we were scared that he was going to kill us if we were going to stab him, because he was fighting us. ADV SANDI But was he not lying on the ground when you started stabbing him? MR TSHABALALA Yes, he fell down, but we were scared that he might wake up and shoot us. ADV SANDI He was lying on the ground and there were three of you. MR TSHABALALA Yes. ADV SANDI You were still scared of one man who was lying on the ground? He had been struck with a pipe on his head and there were three of you, you were still scared of this man, why? MR TSHABALALA It is because we knew that he was a man with weapons. He was a man who is always armed with guns and he was a soldier, a trained soldier, this is why we were scared of him, but our aim was not to kill him when we went there. The reason we killed him is because he was fighting. ADV SANDI Yes, but he didn't have a firearm when he was lying on the ground, did he? Did he have a firearm in his hand? MR TSHABALALA No, he didn't have a gun. ADV BOSMAN He was an old man and you were three strong men with knives. MR TSHABALALA He was strong. He was a strong man. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Mapoma. Who was supplied with firearms by this man? MR TSHABALALA Pilane Mutshiako knows the people he gave, or he supplied the firearms to because they were neighbours to Pilane. ADV SANDI When you went to attack him, how long had he been supplying IFP members with firearms? MR TSHABALALA I wouldn't be able to say, but when I first knew about this it was in 1989, Pilane told me that in 1989. ADV SANDI Did you in fact search for firearms after you had killed this man? MR TSHABALALA We tried but then police came. ADV SANDI What is the answer? Did you in fact - you didn't search for these arms did you? MR TSHABALALA We did. We did. ADV SANDI Where exactly did you search for arms? MR TSHABALALA At first we looked for the guns in his car because his car was parked outside and we didn't find and then even inside the house, we didn't find guns and police came, then we couldn't continue with our search. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA I thought in your evidence in chief you said that when police arrived, you ran into the house to hide there. Didn't you say so? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I said so. Police came and I ran inside the house, but it was the three of us. The others went inside the house to look for guns and I was in the car searching for the guns. MR MAPOMA So it is only after the police arrived that you got into the house? Is it not so? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I only went inside when I saw the police. MR MAPOMA So you never searched for weapons until the police came? Is that what I get from you? MR TSHABALALA Just me, I didn't go inside the house before the police came, but my co-accused both of them, went inside the house before the police came. MR MAPOMA But you have just only said that you went to search for the weapons only when the police came. MR TSHABALALA I didn't say so. I said I searched for the guns inside the car, my co-accused, both of them, went inside the house to look for the guns. I only went inside the house when I saw the police approaching. MR MAPOMA Who searched for the guns inside the house? MR TSHABALALA Pilane and Mandla. Pilane Mutshiako and Mandla Tshabalala. MR MAPOMA Why did you not get in and search yourself? MR TSHABALALA At first I went to the car because the car was there and I was searching for the guns under the seats. MR MAPOMA That was after you had killed this man? MR TSHABALALA Yes, it is so. MR MAPOMA And that was after you had cut his body and removed his liver? MR TSHABALALA Yes, it is so. MR MAPOMA And in fact after you have already put his body into the boiler. MR TSHABALALA Yes, it is so. MR MAPOMA Then it is only after that, that you decided now to go and look for these weapons that you want? MR TSHABALALA Yes, it is so. MR MAPOMA And you did not get those weapons? MR TSHABALALA Yes, we didn't get them. MR MAPOMA I suggest that you never went there with an information that there were weapons there because there were no weapons and there was no such information at all for that matter, what do you say to that? MR TSHABALALA We went there to look for weapons. MR MAPOMA Why did you remove the liver from the body of the deceased? MR TSHABALALA The dog wanted to bite us and we were scared that if we had to move, the dog was going to bite us, therefore we removed his liver in order to give it to the dog and the dog did exactly what we thought because after we gave the dog the liver, it left us alone and it started eating that liver. ADV SANDI Is there any other reason why you removed the liver from his body? MR TSHABALALA No, there isn't, this was the only reason. ADV BOSMAN Do you know that the police found human parts in small bottles in the house? Do you know anything about that? MR TSHABALALA No. I don't know anything about that. ADV BOSMAN Didn't you hear evidence in the court where it was said that the police searched the house and they found parts of a human body in small bottles and in a bowl in the kitchen? Didn't you hear that at the hearing? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I did hear of such in court, but we didn't do such a thing. ADV SANDI Who was responsible for cutting the various part of the body? MR TSHABALALA Pilane Mutshiako. ADV SANDI Was he the only one who did that? MR TSHABALALA The three of us were present, but he's the one who did this, then I will say all of us did that. ADV SANDI Who came up with this idea that the body of the deceased should be cut in the manner we have been told? MR TSHABALALA No one came with this idea, it was something that just happened, we didn't discuss about this, it just happened at that moment. ADV SANDI Who was the first person to cut the body? MR TSHABALALA I don't remember very well who actually cut, but I will say all of us. ADV SANDI Did you cut any particular part of the body, you personally? MR TSHABALALA No, I didn't cut any part of his body. ADV SANDI What did you do when your colleagues were busy cutting the parts of the body? MR TSHABALALA I was present. I think I cut with them in his stomach, I only cut his stomach, but I don't remember removing any part from his body. ADV SANDI Did any one of you talk whilst the body was being cut? MR TSHABALALA No one said anything. ADV SANDI Is that to say that you quietly cut off the various parts of the body, no conversation whatsoever? MR TSHABALALA Yes, it was like that, because we didn't want to make any noise there. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mapoma, we've interrupted you, carry on. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Sir. What other parts of his body were cut, were removed? MR TSHABALALA And also his scrotum was removed. MR MAPOMA Which part was removed first? MR TSHABALALA The liver. MR MAPOMA And it was thrown to the dog and the dog then ran away, isn't it so? MR TSHABALALA Would you please repeat that for me? MR MAPOMA The liver was removed from the body, thrown to the dog and the dog then concentrated on the liver and left you alone? MR TSHABALALA Yes, also the scrotum was removed and given to the dog so that the dog could leave us alone. MR MAPOMA Why did you not mention the scrotum in your evidence in chief? MR TSHABALALA Yes, they were removed. MR MAPOMA Yes, but why did you not mention that in your evidence in chief? MR TSHABALALA I think I made a mistake because I thought I told you. MR MAPOMA So after removing those parts of the body, you took the body into the boiler. MR TSHABALALA Yes. MR MAPOMA For what reason? MR TSHABALALA So that no one discovers his body. MR MAPOMA And so that, just - sorry. Why did you not want his body to be discovered? MR TSHABALALA Because we were scared that if his body will be discovered we might be arrested. MR MAPOMA But does it make sense, Mr Tshabalala? The body was going to be discovered anyway, because the body was not going to be destroyed, was it? MR TSHABALALA Now that you are saying so, I think you're right, but at the time this is how we thought. We thought that his body may be totally destroyed into ashes. MR MAPOMA You must have hated this white man, isn't that so? MR TSHABALALA Yes, because of the situation and because of his participation in giving the IFP weapons and having IFP killing Mandla's mother, this is why we hated him. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you. ADV SANDI Just one. Can I take it, from what you've said, that the deceased had been supplying weapons to the IFP for quite some time? MR TSHABALALA I only knew the deceased in 1989 when I came to visit Pilane and Pilane briefed me, told me that it has been a long time he's been doing this. ADV SANDI Yes, he told you that he had been supplying the IFP with firearms in 1989. MR TSHABALALA When I first met him in 1989, that's when he told me so. ADV SANDI Had any action been taken against him before this particular day when you went to attack him on his farm? MR TSHABALALA We tried to get hold of guns, but then we failed, then we decided to go to him and take his own guns. We tried. ADV SANDI In other words what you are saying is at the time you went to attack him at his farm, no action had been taken against him for supplying the IFP with weapons? MR TSHABALALA No, we didn't. ADV SANDI Yes, it was the first time that an action had been taken against him for supplying the IFP with arms, it was the first time. Nothing had been done about this before. MR TSHABALALA We wanted to go and speak to him, but then we decided not because we didn't have guns, because we were scared that he will shoot us if we go there unarmed. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshabalala, how long did you spend on this farm before the police arrived and arrested you hiding in or on top of the wardrobe? MR TSHABALALA It wasn't a long time at all, even though I may be unable to estimate in hours, but it wasn't really a long time. CHAIRPERSON Could it have been a day, 24 hours? MR TSHABALALA No, definitely not a day. It wasn't a long time. CHAIRPERSON That seems to be what the court found that tried you. You seemed to have spent about a day on that farm between the attack and the time that the police apprehended you eventually. You say that is not right? MR TSHABALALA No, it is not correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you find any alcohol on the farm? MR TSHABALALA I think I do remember Pilane holding a bottle of alcohol when the two of them went inside to search for the guns. CHAIRPERSON And what happened to that bottle of alcohol? MR TSHABALALA They drank it, both of them. Since I do not drink, I didn't. CHAIRPERSON Did they drink it before you cut up the body parts of the deceased? MR TSHABALALA It was after because the only time they went inside the house to search for the guns, it was after the deceased had been cut and I was searching the car, that's when they got hold of this bottle of alcohol. CHAIRPERSON You were charged, and according to the case that was presented to the court by the prosecution against you, you were charged with having severely mutilated the body of the deceased, in fact according to the summary of the case that was made against you, you were charged with having cut out the eyes, the heart, the liver, and the fat from the deceased's body and to have also severed his penis and his scrotum, was that what you were charged with having done? MR TSHABALALA The prosecutor said so in court, but it was a mistake because this is not exactly what we did. CHAIRPERSON And my colleague Adv Bosman, has already raised with you the fact that apparently some body parts were found in bottles and some other container inside the farmhouse. Do you say you know nothing about this? MR TSHABALALA No, I know nothing about that. CHAIRPERSON And according to the evidence of the police who arrived at the farm, the heart of the deceased was found lying outside the house. Do you know anything about that? MR TSHABALALA I didn't see anything like that at all. CHAIRPERSON You say that's impossible? MR TSHABALALA It is actually really impossible, because we didn't do such a thing. CHAIRPERSON The trial court also drew a conclusion that the body was mutilated and these body parts, these organs were removed from the body for the purpose of having muti. MR SEWPAL Perhaps I should just point out that in terms of the Appellate Division judgement, the court there felt that the court below was not justified in coming to that particular conclusion because there wasn't sufficient evidence to justify that finding. CHAIRPERSON Well, that is so, that is the view of the Appeal Court, but I'm talking about the situation at the trial court and I want your response on that. That's what the court that tried you, the first court that heard your case, Judge President of this Division at that stage, that's what he found. He drew the conclusion that all this happened because you were looking for muti, now do you wish to comment on that at all? MR TSHABALALA The truth is we didn't do that and I also don't know anything about needing organs to make muti, this is what police thought, but it was nothing like that. We don't know why they came to that conclusion. CHAIRPERSON Was the only thing that you did to the body, to remove the liver and the scrotum to throw to the dog so as to prevent the dog from biting you, that was all you did, if I understood you correctly. Was that right? MR TSHABALALA Yes, that's correct and that's the only thing we did in that body, the rest I don't know. CHAIRPERSON And the rest couldn't have happened, you say. MR TSHABALALA No, it didn't happen and it couldn't have. CHAIRPERSON Yes, yes thank you. Mr Sewpal, have you got any re-examination? MR SEWPAL I've got no re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SEWPAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Tshabalala, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR TSHABALALA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sewpal. MR SEWPAL Thank you. I would like to call Mandla Richard Tshabalala. MANDLA RICHARD TSHABALALA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Sewpal. MR SEWPAL Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR SEWPAL Mr Tshabalala, where did you live, in which area did you live during 1990? MR TSHABALALA Thabamhlope in Estcourt. MR SEWPAL Were you a member or supporter of any political organisation at that time? MR TSHABALALA Supporter. MR SEWPAL On which organisation? MR TSHABALALA ANC. MR SEWPAL Was there any other political organisation that was active in your area at that time? MR TSHABALALA Yes there was. MR SEWPAL And what was the relationship between these two organisations? MR TSHABALALA Conflict between the two organisations, the ANC and the IFP. MR SEWPAL Okay. And did you or anybody in your family ever get caught up in any conflict with either one of these parties during that time? MR TSHABALALA I went once in a meeting. MR SEWPAL Okay, what sort of problems were there between these two political organisations? MR TSHABALALA They were fighting, shooting each other. and most of the time the IFP was shooting the ANC. MR SEWPAL Okay. Were you as an ANC member or any other person that you knew, closely involved in any of this violence? MR TSHABALALA No. MR SEWPAL Okay. ADV SANDI I think the problem there is you put two questions together. MR TSHABALALA I only attended one meeting. ADV SANDI I was just saying you put two questions to him, you've combined them. Why not start the first part of the question, then the second part? MR SEWPAL I apologise for that. Did you or any person closely associated with you, get involved at any level in any of the violence with any of the political organisations? MR TSHABALALA No. The only time I was involved was when I attended a meeting. MR SEWPAL Okay. Now you were found guilty of being involved in the murder of the deceased in this case, do you agree with that? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I do. MR SEWPAL Now how did it come about that you were involved in this killing? MR TSHABALALA The problem only started when my mother was killed by IFP and they were also hunting me down, they wanted to kill me, therefore I went to accused no 2 in order to hide and in order to have solutions on the problem and I told him my problem and they came out with an idea that there was a white man who had guns and if we can go there, we can go and tie him up and get his guns, but when we arrived in his house, it didn't happen as planned because he saw us first and then he ran, he wanted to run inside his house. We blocked him, he couldn't get inside his house, because he was looking for his gun. We didn't want to let him inside his house because we were scared that if he did, he was going to grab his gun and start shooting at us. Accused number 2 hit him with a stick and then he fell down. We started stabbing him and then he died. We got scared after we realised that he's dead, then we decided that we should burn his body, so that they don't discover his body but then we realised that his dogs were there, that's when we started cutting his body. We cut off his liver. We gave that liver to his dogs and then the boiler was hot and we started searching his house for guns and my co-accused searched his car and we couldn't get hold of any guns. As we were there, police came and they started searching us. They asked us why we were there. We told them we were there because we wanted to buy the cattle and police started searching the house and the yard. They realised that there were blood stains and they also saw the dog and then the white man's employee came and they said they saw us getting in his house, that's how we were arrested. MR SEWPAL Now can you tell us what was your motive in going to the deceased's house on that day? MR TSHABALALA We went there looking for firearms because we knew that he was the one who was supplying IFP supporters and members with firearms. MR SEWPAL So would it be correct to say that if you took the firearms away from the deceased, you would effectively cut off the supply of firearms to the IFP? MR TSHABALALA I was trying to protect my family because I had lost so much at that time. I never took part in violence but they came and they killed my mother and they burned down my house and then knowing that that white man was supplying weapons, then I decided to go to his house to get hold of those guns, but my aim was not to kill him because he was strong and he was a soldier. I never had any intentions of killing him. All I needed from him were his guns. MR SEWPAL Now how did you know that the deceased was supplying firearms to the IFP? MR TSHABALALA I saw him twice, even though he only saw me when he died, but I saw him twice doing that. He used to come in my neighbourhood. MR SEWPAL Now apart from the liver, did you or any of the other accused cut up any other part of the body of the deceased and remove any parts from it? MR TSHABALALA It was just the liver and his scrotum. In fact when his scrotum was cut, we asked each other why would we remove that, because it's not fair and then we decided that we should burn his body. That's when we realised that this was a serious crime. MR SEWPAL Are you aware that the police said that they found certain human body parts in small bottles and in a bowl inside the house of the deceased? Do you know anything about those parts? MR TSHABALALA Yes, police said so, but I personally know that they were just saying something they don't know because police searched the house and we saw them even taking the deceased's money in front of us and some other stories, they were just putting them as if we were the ones, but we saw them doing that. Police took almost everything in his house. They actually vandalised his house. They took car parts and all of this they put down as if we took is and they were calling us monsters. MR SEWPAL Now after you placed the deceased's body in the boiler, what happened next? MR TSHABALALA We didn't even look at his body, we left his body there. We went to his car and we also went inside the house to search for the guns. MR SEWPAL And did you find any guns? MR TSHABALALA Unfortunately we didn't even find any guns. I was actually surprised because I thought that we were gong to find more guns. I couldn't even trust my friend when he told me he couldn't find guns inside the house and then I went inside the house as well and searched. MR SEWPAL How long after that did the police arrive? MR TSHABALALA More than an hour. I think it was more than an hour, it wasn't a short time, it was a long time. MR SEWPAL Did you also find some liquor in the deceased's house? MR TSHABALALA Yes, we did. MR SEWPAL And what did you do with it, if anything? MR TSHABALALA Myself and accused number 3, we drank that alcohol. MR SEWPAL How do you feel about the fact that you killed this person on that day? MR TSHABALALA I feel remorse and I would like God to forgive me and also the deceased. What happened was terrible, but later when I looked at this, I saw that this was just like death, one doesn't know when he or she is going to die, but I'm actually feeling remorse and this is why I came here, to tell this Commission. I think I actually harassed and put the deceased in terrible pain. It was better to take his guns, not to burn his body and not to kill him. I am here simply because I need forgiveness from God. MR SEWPAL Had your mother not been killed during 1988, do you think that you would have still been involved in this killing? MR TSHABALALA No, I wasn't. The reason I did this, it was because I had no shelter, I will go to accused number 3 and ask for shelter and go back home and there was no home, because my mother had been burned, the house had been burned down and I was left with no-one, no shelter, no-one. My family was gone and I was in trouble, I was in serious problems. MR SEWPAL I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEWPAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sewpal. Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions? MR MAPOMA Yes, Sir, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mr Tshabalala, did you apply for amnesty for this incident? MR TSHABALALA No, initially I didn't put amnesty application, but later I did. MR MAPOMA What ...(intervention) MR TSHABALALA I am sickly. When they put amnesty applications, I was in hospital, I wasn't in prison and then later when I came back I put my application forward. MR MAPOMA Suppose that you received the firearms, what were you going to do with those firearms? MR TSHABALALA I was going to ask my co-accused to go and kill those people who attacked my home and killed my family. MR MAPOMA So you want to get these firearms in order to revenge the killing of your mother? MR TSHABALALA Yes. MR MAPOMA Before you cut the parts of the deceased person, where was the dog? MR TSHABALALA In front of the car. He had it tied there. CHAIRPERSON Ms Interpreter did you say it was tied there? INTERPRETER Yes. CHAIRPERSON The dog? INTERPRETER Yes, the dog was tied up there in front of the car. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MAPOMA How far was the body from the place where the dog was? MR TSHABALALA Very close, like from here to the other room and the car was parked next to and the boiler ...(intervention) MR MAPOMA Would you point out how far the dog was from the body, just give an indication in this room. MR TSHABALALA Yes, I can try. MR MAPOMA Yes, please do. MR TSHABALALA From here to the other room, that light outside through that door, that light which is lit outside that door and there's a boiler there and the car there and the dog. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshabalala, can't you show in that way, in that direction because we can't see behind us now, our vision is not open to where you're pointing. Can you point from where you're sitting towards the back of the hall? MR TSHABALALA From where I'm sitting to the corner of the room, the car is right here and the boiler is there. It's not far. CHAIRPERSON Is that the distance between where the dog was tied up and where the body was lying? MR TSHABALALA The car was parked right there. In front of the car there's a dog and then the body was closer to the boiler and then there's a dairy in the middle. CHAIRPERSON Now is the boiler where you are sitting, more or less, and is the car in the corner at the back there of the hall? MR TSHABALALA The boiler is right where the applicant is seated and the body is right next to the boiler and then the car and the dog is right at the corner of the room and we took the parts from where I'm seated and then we went to that corner and gave the dog those organs. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand. It's a sort of a distance of about 15 metres, I should imagine, that the applicant is trying to point our from where he's sitting towards the end of the hall, but we've got the idea. You say in between there was a dairy as well? MR TSHABALALA Yes, there's a dairy as well, next to the boiler, it has been a long time, I'm not certain about my estimations. It wasn't far from each other. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well, thank you, we have a picture of what you are explaining. Sorry, Mr Mapoma, carry on. MR MAPOMA Thank you Sir. And how far was the dog from the car? MR TSHABALALA The dog was very close to the car in front of the car. MR MAPOMA Was it about the gentleman behind you? MR TSHABALALA Yes, exactly like that, the one behind me is the car and in front here, where I'm seated, that's where the dog was. CHAIRPERSON It's about a metre. MR MAPOMA And that is the car where Sibusiso Tshabalala was searching the weapons, is it so? MR TSHABALALA Yes. MR MAPOMA You say in your evidence you said after your mother was killed, you went to seek advice from your co-accused and they told you that there's a white man ...(intervention) MR TSHABALALA Yes. MR MAPOMA And then they told you that there is a white man who has got guns, do you remember that? MR TSHABALALA Yes, accused number 3 told me so. MR MAPOMA And that is how you learned of the deceased person? MR TSHABALALA Yes. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions? ADV BOSMAN Yes, Chairperson. Mr Tshabalala, if you look on page 21 to 23 of the bundle there's a statement which it would appear you made to the TRC investigator. Do you see that? It seems as though it's your thumbprint there. Do you remember making this statement? MR TSHABALALA Yes. ADV BOSMAN Now in that statement, it states that you said the deceased was the first person who fired at the applicant when we entered the gate, is that correct, that the deceased fired first? In paragraph 2, it's typewritten on page 19. MR TSHABALALA No, I didn't say so. ADV BOSMAN And then it says, paragraph 3, that you said that no parts were removed from the body. Did you say that? MR TSHABALALA No, I don't think I've said so. I don't know, maybe it is because when they came I was sick, but I don't remember saying such a thing. ADV BOSMAN And in paragraph, it says that you said "I learned when I was in Westville Prison that the applicant was a member of the ANC" is that correct? MR TSHABALALA What I said is that I knew that he was a supporter, he didn't have a membership card of the ANC but he was a supporter. ADV BOSMAN So if I can just go back to paragraph 2, you said that Pilane had intended to buy cattle from the deceased. MR TSHABALALA I have no knowledge of this and I cannot comment on something that I don't know. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. ADV SANDI Your attack on the deceased when you went to raid his home on this day, did you consider that to be some for of revenge on him because he was supplying arms to the IFP? MR TSHABALALA No, it wasn't like that. What happened was a mistake, we were just defending ourselves because we knew that he was a person who had firearms and we were scared and also the way he was fighting us, one could tell that if he could get a chance we were going to die. He was fighting very strongly. ADV SANDI Before you came to this farm, did you have any intention in your mind to assault the deceased? Was this part of your plan at all? MR TSHABALALA No, our aim was, we were going to hold him and just tie him up and take his firearms, but it didn't happen that way because he was very strong and he was fighting and it looked like if he could have got a chance he was going to kill us, that's what caused his death. ADV SANDI Before you came to this farm, or let me put it this way, when you took the decision to go and attack the deceased, did you know the political affiliation of your co-accused, the other two gentlemen? MR TSHABALALA I knew that they were supporters, that's why I went to them and that's I was sharing ideas with them because I knew that they were supporters of the ANC. ADV SANDI Did you also drink the liquor on the farm? MR TSHABALALA Yes, I did, in fact most of my participation was after I had drunk, like putting his body in the boiler, this happened after I had drunk. When I cut his body, it was after I had taken alcohol. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Did you at any stage discuss this plan that you and your former co-accused had with ...(intervention - speaking simultaneously) MR TSHABALALA You mean before the incident? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR TSHABALALA Yes, we sat down and we talked about this. We discussed about this because we had a problem. We needed firearms and that's why we chose the deceased, because we were looking for firearms. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but apart from discussing it amongst yourselves, did you discuss this idea, this plan with anybody other than amongst the three of you? MR TSHABALALA It was our secret, the three of us. We didn't reveal this to anyone and also the fact that I didn't have any shelter and these were the people who were helping me, so I asked them to help me and I told them that the people who had killed my family were after me, they wanted to kill me, therefore I went to them and we spoke among ourselves that we were going to go to that farm and take the guns and the plan didn't include murdering the deceased, but it was all about taking his guns. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Have you got any re-examination Mr Sewpal? MR SEWPAL Sorry, no re-examination. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshabalala, you're excused. Thank you. MR TSHABALALA Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Sewpal? MR SEWPAL I call Pilane Thembo Mutshiako. CHAIRPERSON Just give us a minute. PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR SEWPAL Mr Mutshiako, where did you live during 1990? MR MUTSHIAKO In Estcourt. MR SEWPAL And do you know the previous witness Mandla Richard Tshabalala? MR MUTSHIAKO Yes, I do. MR SEWPAL Where did he live during that time? MR MUTSHIAKO He resided at my home. MR SEWPAL Were you at that stage a member or supporter of any political organisation? MR MUTSHIAKO I was an ANC supporter. MR SEWPAL Now can you tell us why the previous witness, Mandla Tshabalala was living with you? MR MUTSHIAKO He came to me and he was in distress that his mother had been killed by Inkatha. They had also burned down his home. That is how he came to live with us, MR SEWPAL Okay. And you were convicted of the murder of the deceased in this case, together with two other people. Can you please tell us how it came about that you got involved in the killing of the deceased? MR MUTSHIAKO When I came upon them, the deceased was on top of accused number 2. That is when I assaulted him with a pipe on the head twice. He fell off and then the other person, Mandla Tshabalala, came and also stabbed him. MR SEWPAL Can you tell me why you got involved in the killing of the deceased? MR MUTSHIAKO It was not our intention to kill him, but we were looking for firearms. On seeing that he was fighting and accused number 2 was now below him, I also saw intestines protruding, I could not tell whether they belonged to the white man or accused number 2. That was when I hit him on the head. MR SEWPAL What made you think that the deceased had firearms? MR MUTSHIAKO He usually sold the firearms to Stanley Ngombe. He would come to our area regularly. MR SEWPAL How do you know this? MR MUTSHIAKO I was once employed by Stanley because he owned a shop and his shop was burned down because of the violence. MR SEWPAL Now which organisation did this person Stanley belong to? MR MUTSHIAKO He was initially an IFP member, up until his death. MR SEWPAL Do you know when Mandla's mother died? MR MUTSHIAKO I was informed by Mandla that his mother was burned when the house was also burned down. I did not get information about other injuries that she sustained. MR SEWPAL Okay. Now what did you want these guns for? MR MUTSHIAKO We would have used them to pay revenge on the IFP member who had burned down Mandla's home. MR SEWPAL Okay. Now could you describe what happened when you got to the deceased's home? MR MUTSHIAKO When we arrived the white man ran into a dairy. He then closed all the doors, there were three of them, so each one of us stood outside a door. He tried to get out using the door at which accused number 2 was standing. He had two iron pipes in his hands and they started fighting and on our arrival, we found that the white man was on top of accused number 2 and there were intestines protruding and you could not tell whether they belonged to the white man or accused number 2. We then assaulted him twice on the head with an iron pipe and he fell off, at which time Mandla stabbed him twice. MR SEWPAL What happened after that? MR MUTSHIAKO Thereafter we looked for a key to his home and on our way, we encountered a dog that was tied next to a vehicle. We then went to his body and cut out the liver and his scrotum and the penis, which we threw, we threw the liver to the dog. The rest were just left in a container. The dog did not eat the rest because it had moved from the vehicle. We then went to the vehicle, found the key, then went into the house. Mandla and myself searched inside the house for the firearms. We didn't find guns, we just found ammunition. We then came across a bottle of alcohol which we drank up. We would go out to look outside. Accused number two was still searching in the car. We would also go out to assist him there. We then decided that we should take the body to the boiler room. We then put him there to burn him and we thought that his body would be burned to ashes. MR SEWPAL What would you say was your motive in going to attack the deceased? MR MUTSHIAKO It was the acquisition of firearms. That was all we wanted because that is what we had discussed and agreed upon. We had not intended to kill him. MR SEWPAL And you wanted to acquire those firearms, for what purpose? MR MUTSHIAKO There was an ANC chairperson in the area, Mr Stanley Ngombe, we had intended to attack that Mr Ngombe and any other IFP member who would come out supporting Mr Ngombe. MR SEWPAL Did you remove any other body parts from the deceased's body, apart from that which you've mentioned? MR MUTSHIAKO I would not be in a position to dispute or admit that because we had drunk alcohol, we were drunk by that time, so there was nothing that I could, at the time, see clearly. MR SEWPAL Now, you made an application for amnesty yourself, during 1996, did you not? MR MUTSHIAKO That's correct. MR SEWPAL Now there's various parts of that form which appear to have been left blank by you, are you aware of that? MR MUTSHIAKO Yes, I am. MR SEWPAL Why was that left in that fashion? MR MUTSHIAKO The forms were delivered to me three days after they had arrived in prison and we were told that we should return them urgently. Because I do not know English, I required somebody to assist me and we just filled in those details that we thought were important. MR SEWPAL And the evidence that you've given in court today, do you regard that as important? MR MUTSHIAKO Yes, that is what is important. MR SEWPAL And if you had the opportunity, would you have actually completed your form with the information that you've given today? MR MUTSHIAKO Yes, I would have. I would have even asked for the assistance of somebody who could help me, because there's always a fear that if you ask another inmate who understands the language, they may fill the form incorrectly deliberately so you will remain in prison. MR SEWPAL I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEWPAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sewpal. Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, just bear with me. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA When you hit the deceased with a pipe, was he still in a standing position, or was he lying? MR MUTSHIAKO He was lying on top of my comrade and that is when I hit him twice on the head. He was pressing the other accused down. MR MAPOMA And where was Mandla? MR MUTSHIAKO He was turning the corner that he could see me as I was assaulting the person, because as I mentioned, we were standing at different doors which were not very close, so Mandla was just turning around to approach where we were. After I had assaulted him on the head, Mandla then arrived and stabbed him. MR MAPOMA When Eric was giving evidence you were here, isn't it so? You were inside this room. MR MUTSHIAKO Eric? MR MAPOMA Yes. Eric Tshabalala. MR MUTSHIAKO Yes. MR MAPOMA And you heard his evidence? MR MUTSHIAKO I did not hear all of it, but yes, I did hear bits. MR MAPOMA He said when you, at the stage you drank liquor, the body had already been mutilated and put into the boiler already. What do you say to that? Do you agree or disagree with him? MR MUTSHIAKO Yes, he was dead already but we had already cut out his body parts, but it was only after we had drunk alcohol that we took the body to the boiler room. MR MAPOMA His evidence was that you hit him, stabbed him, then body mutilated and put into the boiler and thereafter you searched for weapons. Do you agree with him? MR MUTSHIAKO I would not say I agree because most of what I did happened after I had drunk. Before that we killed him, removed the liver which we threw to the dog and the dog moved away from the vehicle. Then Eric searched the vehicle. We went to the house and we searched inside the house quickly and didn't find firearms, but just ammunition and a bottle of liquor which was next to the fridge. We drank that alcohol and we left the house and we did not finish that bottle at that time. MR MAPOMA Mr Mutshiako, this is very simple. I'm saying to you the evidence of Eric Tshabalala is that when you drank liquor, at the stage you drank liquor, the body was already disposed of or put into the boiler, what do you say to that? Is it correct, or not correct? MR MUTSHIAKO After we had put the body into the boiler room, we went back to finish off that bottle of liquor. MR MAPOMA Okay, is your evidence now to the effect that because of the drunkenness you might have mutilated other parts of the body of the deceased person? MR MUTSHIAKO Well, the police said there were other body parts that were found, so I cannot dispute that because I was already drunk by that time so it is not easy for me to deny that I did do such an act because after drinking, you do not know what you do. Even drinking that alcohol was just to get some courage. MR MAPOMA So you know at what stage the police arrived? MR MUTSHIAKO They arrived at about 6 in the morning. MR MAPOMA And you saw what they did when they arrived? MR MUTSHIAKO We were in the vehicle at the time and they pointed their firearms at us, so we froze there. It was myself and Mandla at the time. By that time I was wearing some overall because my clothes were bloodied so I had tried to wash them with water. Mr Tshabalala was inside the house at the time. MR MAPOMA What were you doing in the car? MR MUTSHIAKO There was a hole behind the seat so Mandla was retrieving ammunition from that hole and after that he also discovered a bag inside that hole that was full of ammunition. The police confiscated all of that and some vehicle parts. MR MAPOMA So you recall, you have got a good recollection of what was happening at the stage when the police arrived but at the same time you have no recollection of what was happening when the body was being mutilated because you claim to have been drunk at that stage. How do you explain this? MR MUTSHIAKO There is a lot that I do not recall. What I recall is the removing of the liver and the scrotum. Other things I cannot remember because I was already drunk because it was spirits. MR MAPOMA Thank you. Thank you Mr Mutshiako. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. When you arrived on the farm the first time, was there still light? Was it during the day, in other words? MR MUTSHIAKO It was at dawn, about 4.00 a.m. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other questions from the Panel? ADV BOSMAN I've got no questions. ADV SANDI Sorry, just one thing. What kind of liquor was this? MR MUTSHIAKO It was colourless and it was a bottle as the applicant indicated. ADV SANDI Do you remember if any one of you suggested that there should be a mutilation of the body? How did it happen? MR MUTSHIAKO It is not easy to recall who came up with that opinion, because he was already injured, his intestines and liver were already exposed. CHAIRPERSON Please, can you switch that cell phone off, or if you want to switch it on, just don't come back in here. Sorry, carry on. MR MUTSHIAKO We then decided that we should remove the liver because we could not otherwise remove the dog from the vehicle. At that time we were still sober. We did this and we threw it to the dog and that dog moved away. We also cut out the scrotum and the penis. This was to ensure that if the dog returned we would throw that to it as well, so that we could go to the vehicle. ADV SANDI Sorry, just explain this. The dog moved away to where? Where did it go? MR MUTSHIAKO I think it moved further away to a distance where the arrow is. The vehicle was about where I'm seated and it moved from there to that red arrow on the wall, that was when we were able to move closer to the vehicle. ADV SANDI How many dogs did he have there? Was it a dog or dogs? MR MUTSHIAKO Just one dog. It was a big dog. ADV SANDI It was barking at you, wasn't it? MR MUTSHIAKO It just made a noise, it's just like the applicant is demonstrating, but it didn't bark. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Was this dog tied up? Your fellow perpetrators say that the dog was tied up. MR MUTSHIAKO Yes, there was a rope and it used that same rope to run down. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Sewpal, any re-examination? MR SEWPAL No re-examination. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEWPAL CHAIRPERSON Mr Mutshiako, you're excused, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Sewpal, is that the case? MR SEWPAL That is the case. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA I have no further evidence to tender Chairperson. I think Chairperson at this stage I must point out that our investigations have unfortunately drawn a complete blank in tracing the next of kin or relatives of the deceased person, that is Arthur Duncan Johnston who was killed there. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma, we have noted that. Mr Sewpal have you got any submissions on the merits of the application? MR SEWPAL Thank you Mr Chairman. MR SEWPAL IN ARGUMENT I have to concede that this was a gruesome and horrible killing of a human being, but I submit that all of that was taken into account in the High Court as well as in the Appeal Court, when Goldstone J, confirmed the death sentence in this matter. However, without trying to get away from the gruesomeness of the offence, one has to take into account the fact that the applicant and his witnesses stated throughout the hearing, they in fact believed that the deceased in this matter was supplying arms to members of the IFP, that there were problems with the IFP at the time and that the second witness actually lost his mother as a result of the violence of the IFP and I submit that there is nothing basically to contradict what they say in that regard, that this offence was basically politically motivated, arising from those issues. I know that there could be other criticisms directed at them with regard to detail of exactly what happened and so on, but I would ask you to take into account that this offence actually took place 9 years ago and one would expect to find that sort of discrepancy. In those circumstances, I would submit, or my instructions are to submit that the application should in fact be granted. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sewpal. Mr Mapoma, have you got any submissions? MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT Chairperson apart from the fact that the act itself is so gruesome, there doesn't seem to be any political objective which was intended by killing the deceased person in this matter. The applicants throughout are saying that their political objective by launching that attack, by going to raid, was to get weapons and in that process they went out of their way to kill the deceased person. Chairperson it is quite inconceivable that three young men, armed with knives, could be overpowered by an 64 year old man, one 64 year old man, to the extent that he had to be killed. Interestingly, not only was he killed, his body parts were mutilated. The evidence as it is, the explanation that has been given by the applicants as to why the body was mutilated, is not satisfactory, Chairperson, that is my submission. ADV SANDI I thought one or two of them says at some stage there was a struggle between the deceased and one of them and they saw some intestines and they were not sure whose intestines those were and I thought the witness concerned went on to say he thought this was the intestines of his colleague and they attacked the deceased, they started stabbing the deceased. MR MAPOMA Even on that version, Chairperson, there is some inconsistency because the applicant's version was such that the deceased was hit with a pipe and fell down and when he was down, then he was stabbed. That is the version of the applicant and the applicant is the most crucial witness at this hearing because he's the man who applies for amnesty, he's the person who bears a responsibility to convince the Committee that he's making as a complete a disclosure and candidly as possible, so I submit Chair, that the testimony of the applicant bears much more weight than that of the other persons who have testified. ADV SANDI We cannot ignore evidence that has been led, be it an applicant, a co-applicant or just a witness in support of the application of the applicant, but maybe that's beside the point. Did they have an order to do this? Isn't that required in terms of the Act? What is an act associated with a political objective in terms of the Act? MR MAPOMA Yes, before I deal with that Chair, I just want to respond to the point which is beside the point. I do not submit that the evidence of others ought not to be taken into account, but all I'm saying is that there are serious contradictions from the applicant's case as to the reason why this man was killed. Now coming to the political objective, we now know that none of the applicants was ever involved in the conflict that was taking place between the IFP and the ANC there and for that matter, none of them was a member of the ANC. They may have been supporters, the point is that the policies of the ANC were not followed and the action as it is had nothing to do with the policies of the ANC, it just was not an action which was intended to further the aims of the struggle waged by the ANC, in whatever manner as it is and on that basis and that basis Chairperson only, the application should be dismissed. There are some other issues as well which I may take up, but I can only do so if the Committee may require me to at this stage Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Sewpal have you got any further submissions? MR SEWPAL IN REPLY Perhaps I should just add one more factor that should perhaps be taken into account and that is that, I think it was the second witness who made the point that not only were they trying to get these arms in order to arm themselves to attack members of the IFP. The simple removal of those arms from the deceased could have meant that Inkatha's supply could have been cut off and I think that could also have been taken into account in regards to a political motive. ADV SANDI Yes, but was it not the evidence here that the deceased was believed to be supplying the IFP with arms for quite a long time and no action had been taken against him. MR SEWPAL No action had been taken until this incident. Of course there is no real explanation for why it took so long for them to act because the second witness' mother died sometime in 1988, that was conceded, so I concede that there was a long period of time between those two things happening. ADV SANDI If it is true that the deceased was in fact supplying arms to the IFP, then this must have been a very serious problem, not so? He must have been causing a lot of problems for the ANC people in that area. MR SEWPAL I submit that that would have been so, but I think the way in which this case has been pitched, neither the applicant nor the witnesses that he called were any high profile people in the ANC, they were simply ANC sympathisers and perhaps they would have thought that more important people would take action in this sort of matter. I can only speculate on that but if one has to try to find some justification for why it took so long. ADV BOSMAN ...not to have expected them to at least have consulted with the ANC, if it was their purpose to cut off arms being supplied to the IFP. MR SEWPAL I have to concede that is perhaps a weakness in my case. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but you're submitting that that is just another factor, your case is pitched on the basis that they went to acquire arms and it's a secondary consideration, that's not the thrust of your case. MR SEWPAL No, it isn't. ADV SANDI My understanding of the evidence is that they did not belong to any formal political structure, did they? MR SEWPAL There was no evidence to that effect. I concede that. They pitched their case on the basis that they were sympathisers of the ANC. They didn't say that they were members as such. ADV SANDI Would one be able to say, I mean looking at the requirements of the Act, would one be able to say they were carrying out a political order? MR SEWPAL There was no order given by anybody. ADV SANDI One of them says, Mr Mutshiako he says there were no order but just our own initiatives. MR SEWPAL Sorry, you referred to me page 13 of the bundle. Yes, this was a decision that seemed to have been taken by them jointly, without any other person being involved in it, that I have to concede. ADV SANDI My understanding of the Act here is that it is envisaged that the person applying for amnesty must have been carrying out orders from his organisation and not someone who is just on a frolic of his own. MR SEWPAL I can't pitch this case at any higher level than it has been brought actually, I am limited by the evidence that we have, so I can't really take the matter much further. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you Mr Sewpal. Yes, that concludes the formal hearing of this application. The Panel will consider the matter and will formulate a decision in this matter as soon as we can, given the other demands that we have to contend with. Once the decision is available we will endeavour to ensure that all of the interested parties are apprised of the decision in the matter. Under those circumstances the decision will be reserved and we want to express our ... NO FURTHER RECORDING ON TAPE