amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-18 DURBAN 4 MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI AM7643/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53943&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99111518_dbn_991118db.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes, we would like to start the proceedings. For the record today is Thursday the 18th November 1999. It is the continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at the Durban Christian Centre. The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. The first matter that we will be hearing this morning is the amnesty application of Mr M M Jili, amnesty reference number AM7643/97. For the record I'm going to ask the parties legal representatives to go on record. Ms Loonat, I think you're for the applicant. MS LOONAT Good morning Mr Chairperson, learned Members of the Committee. I am Mrs Zerina Loonat and I'm representing the applicant, Mr Jili, this morning. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Loonat. And then for the next-of-kin, Ms Reddy? MS REDDY Chairperson, I'm actually representing the victims in this family namely the Ferrero family. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it's Ms Reddy is it? And the leader of evidence? MR MAPOMA Chairperson I'm Zuko Mapoma, I'm the leader of evidence. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Ms Loonat, do you want your client to take the oath? MS LOONAT Yes please. MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Jili, please tell the Members of the Committee how old you are? MR JILI I am 25 years old and I'm about to turn 26. MS LOONAT Where do you live? MR JILI I was born in KwaMashu and now I'm residing in Richmond. MS LOONAT Which party are you a member of? MR JILI ANC. MS LOONAT Are you a card carrying member and have you got proof of that? MR JILI Yes I am. MS LOONAT And do you have proof of this? MR JILI Yes I do have that card but I don't have it in my possession right now but it is at home. MS LOONAT At the time when you entered politics who was your leader? MR JILI Siphiso Kabindo was our leader. MS LOONAT In what respect was he your leader, did he give you instructions or how was he your leader? MR JILI He was a leader in the area and we used to go and join to him as ANC members, he's the one who was giving us cards or was issuing the membership cards. ADV BOSMAN When did you join the ANC? MR JILI In 1991. MS LOONAT Tell me, was there any kind of political turmoil in your area? MR JILI Yes there was as from 1992 and from 1993. MS LOONAT And what did you do about it? MR JILI A certain organisation used to attack us, shoot at us and sometimes take our cattle. MS LOONAT What is the name of your organisation, do you know? MR JILI It is the people from Apateni not the organisation, from a Apateni and their leader was Mbashlazi. MS LOONAT What party did they belonged to, do you know? MR JILI IFP members. MS LOONAT How often did they attack your area? MR JILI It will be three times a week. MS LOONAT As from when would you say, as from 1992 onwards? MR JILI It's from 1992 onwards. MS LOONAT What did you do about these attacks? MR JILI We ...(inaudible) MS LOONAT I didn't hear the translation. INTERPRETER That's because I didn't because I was disturbed. MS LOONAT Sorry about that. I'll put the question again. Mr Jili, what did you do about these persistent attacks on your area? MR JILI After they had come and attacked us sometimes we would run away and go and hide in the bushes and then later we decided that we needed to arm ourselves so that we don't have to run away from our homes. MS LOONAT You say we decided to arm ourselves, please explain that? MR JILI I will put it this way, there was a commander. His name is Kotele Sibonele. He was the one who usually gave us instructions that we were supposed to go and combat them, to go in the area where we will block them from coming into our community and attack them as they were coming to attack us. MS LOONAT How many of you were there when you retaliated? MR JILI Sometimes we will be thirty, sometimes thirty five and sometimes less than that, sometimes twenty nine, depending on what time the attack was launched because sometimes we will wait for people to come from work to join us. MS LOONAT Mr Jili, when you were given instructions to fight back, what exactly was your instructions, did you have firearms, what did you actually do? MR JILI Some had firearms and some didn't have. MS LOONAT And do you own your own firearm? MR JILI At that time I didn't have. MS LOONAT Where did you get the firearms from? MR JILI When we launched attacks we usually armed ourselves with spears and sticks but Mtuduzi used to give me his firearm. MS LOONAT Who is Mtuduzi? MR JILI Mtuduzi Jama. MS LOONAT Who was he, was he a friend, a leader? Who was he? MR JILI He was also a member of the ANC and he was one of us. MS LOONAT You mean one of us carrying on our fighting on a regular basis, is that what you mean? MR JILI Yes one of us who were also counter-attacking our enemies. MS LOONAT Do you have any training in the use of firearms? MR JILI No. MS LOONAT Tell me, were these firearms supplied to you by Mr Sibonele, Kotene Sibonele, or by Mr Mtuduzi Jama? MR JILI Mtuduzi used to lend me his firearm. MS LOONAT Where is Mr Sibonele at the moment, your commander? MR JILI He is now late, he passed away in 1994. MS LOONAT On the 27th April 1993 you and some of your co-perpetrators entered the home of Mr Ferrero, the farm house of Mr Ferrero, is that correct? MR JILI Yes that is correct. MS LOONAT Please tell us what led up to your going to that farm house on that day, why did you go and who arranged the whole thing? MR JILI Bongani Zuma was the one who organised this whole thing. MS LOONAT What did he organise? MR JILI He organised that since the people from Apateni who were attacking usually go past that farm and pick up weapons there and come and attack us, therefore we were supposed to go there in that farm and pick up those firearms. MS LOONAT Are you saying that the victim was supplying firearms to the IFP members, is that correct? MR JILI Yes, that's what I'm saying. MS LOONAT Did you have any proof of that besides Bongani Zama telling you that? MR JILI When I was told that the weapons and the firearms were taken from that farm five of us or five guys who belonged to our community went to that farm to check if this was true and they discovered that there were weapons but then those weapons were not as many and then we believed that they were probably many other weapons in that farm because the attackers usually passed that farm when they turned to attack us. MS LOONAT What time of the day or night was it that you entered the farm? MR JILI It was in the morning at about 10 o'clock. MS LOONAT What did you do then? MR JILI From where we camped some of us went back to our homes to go and rest because we were not asleep part of the night and ...(intervention) MS LOONAT Sorry Mr Jili. Sorry, one moment. The question I'm asking you is when you entered the farm what happened, not when you left the farm. When you entered the farm with your five colleagues what transpired that morning. MR JILI Mr Ferrero was going towards his car and we approached him there, we had firearms and then later I heard a gun firing and myself and Sibongile and Tanda, we entered the house together with Mr Ferrero and Mduduzi came there and asked him as to where the firearms where and he only issued one firearm and then Mduduzi asked him about the other firearms and then he said he no longer had other firearms except for that one, that was the last one and then Mduduzi also asked for ammunition and later I heard a gun fire again and then I asked them as to where they were taking these - they took firearms, ammunition and his bag as well. MS LOONAT You say you were on the farm and whilst you were talking to Mr Ferrero you heard gunshots. Can you please be more specific, was it on the farm or was it in the neighbouring area? MR JILI On the farm. MS LOONAT What did you do thereafter? MR JILI We went inside his house and Mr Ferrero said there were no longer other firearms. We left. MS LOONAT Two of the occupants of the house were murdered that day, please tell us how that came about? MR JILI As we left the house we saw Mduduzi outside the veranda and Mduduzi gave me the firearm which belonged to Mr Ferrero and told me that I should shoot Mrs Ferrero. I didn't even ask him why he wasn't the one who is shooting Mrs Ferrero, why he was asking me to do so because I realised then there that someone was lying down, Mduduzi had already shot him and then I just shot and then we left. MS LOONAT So you shot Mrs Ferrero on Mduduzi's instructions, is that what you're saying? MR JILI Yes. MS LOONAT Why didn't you ask Mduduzi to shoot him himself? Sorry, to shoot Mrs Ferrero himself? MR JILI I was afraid to ask him and it was my first time to see someone lying down dead and Mduduzi had the gun in his hand, I was scared that if I were to tell him so he may have done something to me as well. MS LOONAT So in actual fact you panicked, is that what you're saying? MR JILI Yes. MS LOONAT What items were removed from the farmhouse on that day? MR JILI A belt and ammunition and pump gun and a bag. MS LOONAT Who removed all these items? MR JILI Nomanzuma. MS LOONAT Did you remove anything yourself? MR JILI No I didn't. MS LOONAT So the purpose of your entering the farm that day was to steal the owner's firearms, is that correct? MR JILI Yes. MS LOONAT Was there any - did you plan to murder any of the occupants before you had entered the farm? MR JILI No we didn't plan to kill anyone, I only heard a gunfire whilst I was there. MS LOONAT In the judgment we find that your fingerprints were found on the telephone. Could you explain how that came about? MR JILI You mean in the court judgment? MS LOONAT Sorry, I didn't understand that? MR JILI Do you mean in the court judgment? MS LOONAT That's right, the proceedings at the Supreme Court. MR JILI Yes I did put my hand on the telephone and then Mtanda Tshabalala broke the telephone. He deliberately broke the telephone. MS LOONAT Were you ever employed by Mr Ferrero on his farm prior to this incident? MR JILI Yes, during school holidays, winter holidays and summer holidays I will go there and work temporarily. MS LOONAT Was it then that you noticed this movement of Mr Ferrero handing over firearms to the IFP etc? MR JILI No at that time I was still young and I was still attending school. MS LOONAT So you in fact just took instructions from your senior and believed this was what was going on? MR JILI Yes. MS LOONAT Mr Jili, the victims' families are here this morning, is there anything you would like to disclose to them that you haven't already done? MR JILI There is something that I can tell the victims' family. It is very sad, what I did was not actually my aim. The people who were with me at the time and who gave me instructions were older than me and at the time I was still immature and I couldn't stand up to them and I feel a great remorse that a life has been lost because of me and I would like to apologise greatly to the Ferrero family about what happened to them. It was not my aim. MS LOONAT I have no further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Loonat. Ms Reddy have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS REDDY Yes Mr Chairperson, I wish to cross-examine Mr Jili. Mr Jili, when did you become a member of ANC? MR JILI In 1991. MS REDDY You say that the victims were AWB people, is that correct? MR JILI Yes I'm saying so because police told me so. MS REDDY Which police were that? MR JILI Police from Port Shepstone who arrested me. MS REDDY So you only learned that the victims were AWB members after your arrest. In other words what I'm actually asking you is after you committed the offence that's in question here today then you were informed by the SAP police? MR JILI Yes before the incident I thought that they were IFP or they were IFP sympathisers or supporters. MS REDDY Mr Jili, AWB members are predominantly, are only White members and I put it to you that the victims were unmistakably coloureds so in so circumstances can those victims belong to the AWB. Can I have a response to that? MR JILI I know them as coloureds, I never knew them as AWB until the police told me. What I knew before the incident is that they were supporting IFP. MS REDDY How did you actually come to know that they were IFP supporters? MR JILI Mduduzi told us, Bongani Zuma also told us that they were helping IFP and whenever the IFP attackers were coming to attack us they used to pass through that farm and he was the one who was supplying firearms to the IFP attackers. MS REDDY So are you telling us that you went solely on what Mduduzi told you? Can I have a response please? MR JILI Yes. MS REDDY So in other words you actually didn't have any solid proof to the extent that these people in question, in other words the victims, were really IFP supporters? Please answer yes or no. CHAIRPERSON Ms Reddy, just a minute. Ms Reddy when you put the question in English then the interpreters in the box there translate it into whatever language the applicant is speaking, I'm not even sure, I think he probably speaks Zulu and there's a lapse of time between them translating to the witness, him listening to that, responding in Zulu, it goes back to the interpreters, the interpreter then interprets the question to you so you must just allow for that process to happen, alright? So it takes a bit longer then than usual to get a response in these circumstances. MS REDDY My apologies, Chairperson. MR JILI Would you please repeat your question? MS REDDY You don't have any solid proof that the victims were actually IFP members? MR JILI I personally, I don't have solid proof that they were IFP members. MS REDDY So you acted solely on what Mduduzi told you? MR JILI Yes. MS REDDY You killed two innocent people on just what Mduduzi told you? MR JILI I only killed one person. MS REDDY Why didn't you actually find out whether what Mduduzi told you was the actual truth and reality before going to the place in question and actually shooting one person? MR JILI It wasn't going to be easy because sometimes if you heard something in a caucus meeting and then you take responsibility on your own and you go and check if that information is true and false then you want to know if you were checking that and they will think we're leaking the information and then sjambok you. MS REDDY You make mention of a Mr George in your affidavit, can you tell me who Mr George is? MS LOONAT Mr Chairperson, could my learned colleague just show us where in the affidavit so that my client could refer to it? CHAIRPERSON Yes, perhaps you could refer to the page in the bundle, have you got the bundle? I assume you've got this application bundle, Ms Reddy? MS LOONAT Yes. CHAIRPERSON Alright, the pages are numbered, are paginated so you can just refer to the page? MS REDDY Page 4, paragraph 5, line 2. CHAIRPERSON Page 4? Sorry, is it the paginated page because we've got in our bundle, the pages are paginated with a koki pen, black koki pen. I don't know what your one looks like? MS REDDY Alright, just go to the affidavit of the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Where does it appear? MS REDDY It's on the first page of the affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Where does it appear, page 9? So you don't have a paginated bundle there? MS REDDY No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Alright, well let's try and find the affidavit. I'm told it could be on page 9. Is it a document, is it a fax document with some faxed information on the top there 3/11/99 16/16 etc? MS REDDY No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Not that? MS REDDY It's the affidavit of Jili, the first page of the affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Alright has it got an amnesty reference number and then the heading affidavit and then it starts "I the undersigned" MS REDDY Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON "Mbekesini Jili said under oath, I'm a South African male", is it that document? MS REDDY Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well, what paragraph? MS REDDY It will be paragraph 5 line 2, "George Ferrero." CHAIRPERSON George Ferrero? MS REDDY Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes we've got that. Yes, Ms Loonat I assume you've got that? MS REDDY Yes thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well, let's proceed. MS REDDY Could you please tell me who you are referring to as George Ferrero? MR JILI The owner of the farm who we attacked. MS REDDY The farmer that you attacked was a Mr Edward Ferrero. MR JILI I know him as George Ferrero. Mduduzi and them told me so. MS REDDY Right, evidence would be led here by the daughter of Mr Edward Ferrero, that George actually was the grandfather on the maternal side so that is why I'm now in confusion with the said name. You say Mduduzi or Mdudu actually gave you a firearm, is that correct? MR JILI Yes that is correct. MS REDDY And you also say that your political objective was to actually go to the farm in question and get firearms to protect yourselves. So I'm having problems reconciling the two because you had firearms, you had spears, that was enough to actually enough to counteract any attacks from the IFP. So why did you actually need to go and get more firearms for the said objective? MR JILI We went there because we needed more firearms. The only firearms we had they were home made firearms of which there were just three. MS REDDY Can I just take you back to the incident where you said some other persons from the ANC members actually went to the farm, you actually say in 1993 they went to the farm and took five firearms. Were not those five firearms sufficient? MR JILI Only five people went there, I didn't say they'd taken five firearms, I said five of them went there. MS REDDY In your affidavit five is stated? MS LOONAT Mr Chairperson, can I just ask my learned colleague to point to us where in the affidavit? CHAIRPERSON Yes, paragraph 6, the middle line, towards the end of that middle line. MS LOONAT Thank you. MS REDDY It's in the affidavit of the applicant. MS LOONAT Mr Chairperson, may I address? Our understanding, it appears that that was hearsay because he says he was not part of the delegation so it's ...(indistinct) to ask him to confirm what is actually told by somebody else? CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Jili, this affidavit of yours was taken I assume by the TRC. MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, by the TRC investigator. CHAIRPERSON The TRC investigator took an affidavit, a statement from you which was signed on the 2nd of this month. Now in paragraph 6 of that affidavit which is what Ms Reddy is referring to, it is said that there were some members of your group that had gone to the farm of Ferrero one day in 1993 and they broke into that house and they stole five firearms and then it says that you were not part of that delegation that went to steal the firearms. Ms Reddy is asking you about these five firearms. Now is this right, is this what happened, were there people who went there and they broke in and they stole five firearms from the farmhouse? Was it something that you heard or what, where does this come from? MR JILI I heard about them going there and one of them, I saw him and he had the firearm with him, one of the five boys. CHAIRPERSON So that person, how many firearms did that person have with him, the one that you saw of the five that went to break into the house on the farm? MR JILI He only had one and then he promised that he was going to bring the rest in the camps where we were hiding. CHAIRPERSON So did he say that they took five firearms from the farm? MR JILI He counted that it was him and the others, he told me he was with Mdonda's son and Mthembu's son and Dlamini's son and he said they went in that farm and they stole the guns or the firearms and the said they were going to bring the rest in the camps. CHAIRPERSON So that firearm that he had with him did he say he got that on the farm? MR JILI Yes. CHAIRPERSON What kind of firearm was it, was it a handgun or was it a big gun or what was it? MR JILI A shotgun. CHAIRPERSON A shotgun? MR JILI Yes. CHAIRPERSON So did you see any of the firearms that this chap was talking about, this person that went to break in there whom he said that they took there, had you seen any of the other firearms apart from this shotgun? MR JILI I say another one in Reggie Mkhize's possession. CHAIRPERSON So let me ask you, how many of those firearms did you see, you saw the one with this first person that spoke to you then you saw another one, how many in total of those firearms did you see eventually? MR JILI The only guns that I've seen with my eyes were these two and then the rest I was told and I was told that they were going to bring them in the camps. CHAIRPERSON Yes and the second one that you saw, what kind of firearm was that? MR JILI It was also a shotgun. CHAIRPERSON Also a shotgun. Yes Ms Reddy? MS REDDY Thank you Mr Chairperson. MS REDDY Mr Jili, I'll refer you back to your affidavit, paragraph 7 and I quote "Myself, Mtandwa Tshabalala, Mduduzi Jama, Bongani Zuma and Zubalele Zama had decided to go and see if we can't find more firearms on the farm." So your actual reason for going to that farm on the day in question was to get firearms, am I correct? MR JILI When we arrived there Mduduzi Jama was in front. He started shooting and I only saw a person lying down there. MS REDDY But Mduduzi also told you to kill Mrs Ferrero and you abided. Can you respond to that please? MR JILI Mduduzi was standing right near Mrs Ferrero and then he said to me I must shoot at here and someone was already lying down, I think he was dead and then he said I must shoot and then I shot at her. MR JILI Did you question him why he wanted you to kill her even though you had the firearm in your possession? MR JILI I was panicking and scared because when I looked at Mduduzi's face he had already changed, he was scaring me and I though if I were to question him he was going to turn and shoot at me. ADV SANDI Sorry Ms Reddy, just to get this more clear, is it the only reason that you shot this person, is it simply because you were scared of Mduduzi otherwise you would not have shot the person he was instructing you to shoot? MR JILI Yes. ADV SANDI Thank you, thank you Ms Reddy. MS REDDY Why didn't you testify in court and come clean that you were responsible for one shooting? MR JILI I did mention in court that Mduduzi gave me a gun and instructed me to shoot Mrs Ferrero because the other one Mduduzi had already shot at. MS REDDY No Mr Jili, you did not testify in court, you actually kept silent right through the proceedings? MR JILI In court I pleaded not guilty. MS REDDY Why did you plead not guilty? MR JILI The reason was we were not supposed to sell other comrades. We knew from long time that if you were arrested as a comrade you must die alone, you mustn't reveal other comrades. MS REDDY So you lied on behalf of your comrades when you were under oath? MR JILI Yes. MS REDDY Mr Chairperson, I refer you to the application of Mr Jili. Paragraph 10 (b). CHAIRPERSON That's page 2 of the bundle. MS REDDY: Mr Jili, you say in your paragraph (b) "no one was allowed to kill us except God." Can I ask you if you are God? MR JILI No I am not God, the one reason I did this was because Mduduzi instructed me to do so and I don't think on my own I could have done something like this. MS REDDY So all the time you are hiding behind the instructions of Mduduzi? MR JILI Yes. MS REDDY Why didn't you bring him here today to testify on your behalf? MR JILI I did write letters to all of them and I told them to come forward so that we tell the whole country the truth and I decided to apply for amnesty. I thought since they were outside free maybe they did apply for this because people were told to apply for amnesty. MS REDDY Where is your ANC membership card? MR JILI At home. MS REDDY Why didn't you make any endeavours to bring that card here today so that you could offer us solid proof as to your membership? MR JILI I wanted to do so but I'm not from home, I'm from the Eastern Cape and I couldn't contact people from home when I was in Westville. I wanted to tell them to bring it here but then I failed contacting them. MS REDDY Where are you from? MR JILI Eastern Cape, Umtata. MS REDDY Didn't you tell this sitting that you're from the region near Richmond? CHAIRPERSON Sorry. Are you in prison in Umtata? You're serving your sentence in Umtata prison? MR JILI Yes I'm in prison in Umtata, I'm being transferred from Umtata prison to Westville Prison for this hearing. CHAIRPERSON Yes to come here, alright. Ms Reddy? MS REDDY No further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Reddy. Mr Mapoma any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you. Mr Jili, prior to you joining the ANC in 1991 did you belong to any political organisation? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA Which organisation was it? MR JILI At the time before 1990 it was UDF. MR MAPOMA During that time was there any conflict between the UDF and IFP in your area? MR JILI No, there wasn't. MR MAPOMA So is it your evidence this conflict arose only in 1992? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA In your application in page 2 of the paginated bundle, in your application there in paragraph 9(c) you are required to state the name of the victim. You say "There was one White man there" and you go on to say that the White man was a farmer. Who is this White man you are referring to in that application? MR JILI I think it was a mistake what is written there that it's a White man because it's not a White man. MR MAPOMA So there was no White man as such, is that correct? MR JILI There was no White man but there was a Coloured. MR MAPOMA Who completed this application form? MR JILI It is another inmate from Johannesburg. MR MAPOMA And he was interpreting to you the questions and you would tell him the answers and he would write, is it so? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA How was he doing it, would he read one question and you would tell him the answer and he writes down and continues to another question, like that? MR JILI Yes he was doing like that. MR MAPOMA So are you saying that firstly he asked you tell who the victims were and then you referred, you said there was a White man there and then he wrote down and then he continued again to ask another question and then you spoke of a White man again and he wrote down, is that what you're saying? MR JILI When I was telling him I only referred to them with their surnames. MR MAPOMA You know Mr Jili, even before this paragraph, on paragraph 9(a)(iv) on page 2 of the paginated bundle you say there "The nature of the offence really was to get a firearm from that White farmer." You know, my question is to you now, are you saying this mistake was repeated on a number of questions referring to a White farmer now and again? How do you explain this please? MR JILI I was the one who was telling him and he was writing down. Maybe I didn't referred to him as a Coloured but I refer to him by his surname. CHAIRPERSON This person from Johannesburg who assisted you is prison advisor then inferred from the surname that this person was a White person, is that what you're saying? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. So before you went there you say Bongani Zuma organised the attack on that farm, do you recall that? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA Who was Bongani Zuma? MR JILI You mean his other name? MR MAPOMA Not really, what I want to find out did he occupy any position in the organisation? MR JILI He was a marshall. ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Mapoma. Who was the leader of your group when you went to attack the farm, did you have a leader amongst yourselves? MR JILI Bongani Zuma and Mduduzi. ADV SANDI Was Bongani a leader or a commander to all of you including Mduduzi? How would you rank the two? MR JILI I will say Mduduzi was the leader and then Bongani after Mduduzi. ADV SANDI Why do you say that? MR JILI The person who usually instructed us was Bongani but then Mduduzi would be leading us after we received instructions from Bongani so we will take instructions from Mduduzi and Mduduzi will take instructions from Bongani. ADV SANDI Thank you. Sorry Mr Mapoma for interrupting. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. I suppose there was branch of the ANC in your area, am I correct? MR JILI No there wasn't at that time in our area. MR MAPOMA When was it launched if at all it was ever? MR JILI It was Siphiso Kabinde. MR MAPOMA Siphiso Kabinde stayed at Komagoda, is it not so? And that is not where you stayed. Was that the place where you were, where you resided? MR JILI I don't quite understand what it means to say a branch because I thought maybe if you're asking for a branch you're asking for someone you go and report to or you ask permission for whatever, if you had a problem you will go to that person so I know that Mduduzi and Bongani used to go to Siphiso Kabinde and report to him about incidents and decisions. MR MAPOMA And this Kabinde was residing in another area, is that correct? MR JILI Yes that is correct. MR MAPOMA Was there no leader in your area of the ANC, leader of the ANC? MR JILI He was the prominent leader in our area, there was no prominent leader like Siphiso Kabinde. MR MAPOMA Did you ever become a member of the ANC? MR JILI Yes I am. MR MAPOMA When did you join the ANC? MR JILI In 1991. MR MAPOMA How did you join the ANC in 1991? MR JILI In our area we agreed that we as ANC we decided to take membership cards as members of the ANC in our area. MR MAPOMA I see. ADV SANDI Mr Mapoma are you moving onto something else? Where is your membership card now? MR JILI At home. ADV SANDI Where was it issued to you, who from the ANC issued that membership card to you? MR JILI Siphiso Kabinde. MR MAPOMA Are you saying Siphiso Kabinde is the person who gave you the ANC card? MR JILI No. When we were renewing our membership cards we took I.D. documents and we gave them and then they took all those I.D.'s to Siphiso's office and then he brought back membership cards and they were distributed to us. MR MAPOMA Now when in your area it was agreed that you are going with the ANC were there no people who were elected to be the leaders of the ANC in that area of yours to your knowledge? MR JILI It was Bongani Zuma, Mduduzi Jama and Kotene and Sibonele. MR MAPOMA I see. Okay, now let us come to the place now. Before you went you planned the attack didn't you? You did plan the operation? MR JILI It was the thirty of us in our camps when we were sleeping overnight. Early in the morning before we could go back to our homes Mduduzi came and appointed that some of us were going to remain and then the rest will go back home and sleep or rest and then we were to go to the farm and take the guns. MR MAPOMA But you didn't go there to kill people but to get firearms, that's all? Isn't that so? MR JILI Yes that is so. MR MAPOMA And to get firearms, nothing else? Is that not so? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA And when you were inside the house Mr Ferrero gave you the firearm, he surrendered the firearm to you? MR JILI Yes. Yes he pointed the gun to Mduduzi and Mduduzi took that gun. MR MAPOMA Yes did you ask for other firearms? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA And what did you say? MR JILI He only pointed to that one gun and then even when Mduduzi started searching the house for firearms he couldn't get any and then he took that only one and went outside. ADV SANDI And that was before you say Mduduzi started searching the house and he did not find any firearms? MR JILI Yes. ADV SANDI And that was before Mr Ferrero and Mrs Ferrero were killed? MR JILI I had already heard a fun fire outside and I think one person had already been killed outside. ADV SANDI Yes but that was before Mrs Ferrero was killed when Mduduzi searched the house and he could not find any firearms? MR JILI Yes it was before. MR MAPOMA And you say after Mr Ferrero showed you the firearm Mduduzi took the firearm and you went out, is that correct? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA And on your way out having got the firearm you now showed Mrs Ferrero? MR JILI As we were leaving and I was getting nearer to Mduduzi, Mduduzi gave his gun to me and he said to me I must shoot her. MR MAPOMA You will agree with me at this stage, Mr Jili, that Mrs Ferrero was killed and when she was killed that had nothing to do now with your receiving or returning firearms? Correct me if I'm wrong? MR JILI Yes the truth is I couldn't see the reason why she was supposed to be killed because at that time when she was killed or when Mduduzi instructed me to kill her we had already received the gun and ammunition. I don't know why Mr Mduduzi said she must be killed. ADV SANDI In other words you're saying it was not necessary at all for Mrs Ferrero to be killed at that stage? MR JILI Yes it wasn't necessary at all. ADV SANDI But was she not killed because she happened to know Mduduzi? MR JILI Yes. Later when we asked Mr Mduduzi why he instructed me to do so Mduduzi did say that sometimes he goes there to buy cattle and Mrs Ferrero may or might recognise him later. ADV BOSMAN Did you wear anything over your faces at all? MR JILI No we had nothing. ADV BOSMAN Didn't Mrs Ferrero know you? You'd worked there as a casual labourer? MR JILI Yes maybe but she was old, I didn't have a problem with that. ADV BOSMAN Mr Ferrero, did he know you? MR JILI Yes. ADV BOSMAN So when you went there did you expect them to know you? MR JILI It wasn't easy for them to recognise me because it had been a long time since we'd worked there. ADV BOSMAN When did you last work there? MR JILI It has been a long time. ADV BOSMAN But just an indication, how old were you when you last worked there? MR JILI In 1991. ADV BOSMAN So why didn't you cover your face for in case they recognised you? INTERPRETER I don't think he understood the question. MR JILI I was 17 or 18 years when I last worked there. ADV BOSMAN And how old were you when they were killed? MR JILI 19 years. ADV BOSMAN So that is not such a long time, so why did you not take precautions and cover your face so that they would not recognise you and give your name to the police? MR JILI I think it is because we took it for granted that they were elderly and it wouldn't be easy for them to recognise us. ADV BOSMAN Did they recognise you? MR JILI Yes they did. ADV BOSMAN Isn't that why you killed them? MR JILI No, that's not the reason because as we arrived Mduduzi was already in front and just started firing. I don't know what happened but then he started firing and the person was lying down. ADV BOSMAN Sorry for that long interruption Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Thanks ma'am. Why was Mr Mbaba Mtola killed? MR JILI I don't know what happened. Mduduzi was in front and I was just following from the back, I don't know what happened there. MR MAPOMA Was he killed whilst you were still approaching the house? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA So when you heard a gun fire outside when you were still inside the house Mr Mbaba was already shot, is it not so? MR JILI Mtola was killed just as we were approaching, in fact as soon as we entered the yard. He was killed first. I wasn't there, I was in another place so I didn't see him being killed. MR MAPOMA Now on your way when you left the place you had two radios, is that correct? MR JILI No, we didn't have radios. MR MAPOMA Now when you were leaving did you take any radios from the house? MR JILI Yes Bongani took radios. MR MAPOMA There were two weren't there? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA And a bag? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA And a suitcase? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA Inside the bag was there any money? MR JILI No there was no money. MR MAPOMA Why were these suitcase and bags and radios taken away? MR JILI I don't know where he was taking them because he was also asked why was he carrying those things and then he left them there as he was asked. MR MAPOMA No, what are you saying now, can you explain what you are saying? MR JILI Yes. MR MAPOMA Explain what are you saying. MR JILI As we were leaving Bongani was asked why he was carrying those bags and then he dropped them then and there and then he started walking with us, he left those bags there. MR MAPOMA Where did he drop them? MR JILI It wasn't quite a distance it was nearer to the farm. ADV BOSMAN Who asked him why he was carrying it? MR JILI Mtando Tshabalala. ADV BOSMAN Was he with you? MR JILI Yes he was. ADV BOSMAN Okay. MR MAPOMA So are you saying now Mduduzi was carrying two radios, a purse and a suitcase alone when you were leaving, is that what you're saying? MR JILI Yes Mduduzi was carrying a gun, Bongani was carrying a gun and a bag, that's all. MR MAPOMA No, no, my question is are you saying Mduduzi was carrying two radios, one suitcase, one purse all by himself when you were leaving? MR JILI Yes he had put the other items inside the suitcase. MR MAPOMA Oh, this is the Mduduzi that threw the telephone, is that correct? MR JILI It was Mtando who threw the telephone and broke it. MR MAPOMA I'm sorry. Now where is Mduduzi? MR JILI I don't know where he is now. MR MAPOMA Is he still alive do you know? MR JILI Yes he is still alive. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions? ADV SANDI After you had left the farm did you get to know from your colleagues why Mr Mtola was shot? MR JILI Yes we did ask. It wasn't just myself, me and the rest who were behind we asked what transpired and we were told that he was fighting and Mduduzi just decided to shoot at him because also he was an IFP, that's what Mduduzi said. ADV SANDI Do you know of anyone who stayed on the farm with Mr Ferrero and Mrs Ferrero? MR JILI No at that time I didn't know. ADV SANDI Yes but did you know if anyone was staying in the house on the farm with Mr Ferrero and Mrs Ferrero? MR JILI I didn't know that there were other people who were staying with them inside the house. ADV SANDI Did you know if Mr Mtola knew you? MR JILI No he didn't know me. ADV SANDI Did you know him? MR JILI Yes I did know him. ADV SANDI What did you know about him? MR JILI My mother's brother. ADV SANDI He's your mother's brother? MR JILI Yes. ADV SANDI Are you aware of any members of the so-called Coloured community who were members or supporters of the IFP? MR JILI No I don't know of any. ADV SANDI Did you know of any Coloured person elsewhere who was a member or supporter of the IFP? MR JILI Yes. ADV SANDI Tell us about that. MR JILI There is a certain guy who is a Coloured and he is an IFP supporter. He usually went to a certain area where it was IFP dominant and he will take with them about the ANC and some boys will would come and tell us what he was saying and there are other families as well in my neighbourhood even though it's not so close but I also know that they are supporters of IFP. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MS LOONAT No Mr Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Jili, you are excused, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Have you got anything else? MS LOONAT Would you like me to address otherwise there is nothing else. CHAIRPERSON Is that the case for the applicant? Yes Ms Reddy, what is your position? MS REDDY Mr Chairperson, I just wish to call Mrs Julia Ferrero to testify. CHAIRPERSON Julia Ferrero? MS REDDY Yes Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Will she come forward? Is it an eye witness? MS REDDY No Mr Chairperson, she's the daughter of the late Mrs Patila Ferrero. CHAIRPERSON Is it background information, it's not to do with the incident? MS REDDY Not predominantly Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Just switch on her microphone there. JULIA ARENSI FERRERO My name is Julia Arensi nee Ferrero. CHAIRPERSON Arensi? MS FERRERO Yes. CHAIRPERSON And the other name? MS FERRERO Nee Ferrero, I was a Miss Ferrero. CHAIRPERSON Oh is Arensi your married surname? MS FERRERO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, we've got that. JULIA FERRERO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes Ms Reddy. EXAMINATION BY MS REDDY Thank you Mr Chairperson. Can you tell us what's your relationship to the two said victims? MS FERRERO Mrs Patila Ferrero was my mom and Mr Mtola was -I can't say, he was a person living with my mom and my dad. MS REDDY Can you describe Mrs Patila Ferrero to us? MS FERRERO My mom was a very homely person, she wasn't one who moved around a lot, she kept close to the quarters of the home and the immediate home grounds. She never walked further than the nearest vicinity of the yard. She seldom went out and she seldom kept much contact with any people. She used to be mostly in the home and whoever saw my mom had to come to the home to see her because she wasn't one who was moving around any more. MS REDDY What was the relationship with the neighbouring people? MS FERRERO She was friendly with them, they'd bring people and she knew them, she kept acquaintances with them, she wasn't over friendly with them but she knew the people and they knew her because the farmhouse was isolated and a lot of people needed help from her in many kinds of problems they had, maybe others with their pension, others with maybe injuries and such sort of things then she would render assistance whoever asked for her assistance. MS REDDY Can you tell us a little about Mr Mtola, the other victim? MS FERRERO Mr Mtola was a person that came to the home in 1976. He originally came wanting employment. That time my dad was still productive, he was still doing quite a lot of work on the farm and Mr Mtola wanted employment but it was found that Mr Mtola had a very low I.Q. His I.Q. was rather low and he wasn't physically capable and neither was he mentally capable to really do heavy work or any kind of work so my parents took him on from then and would try to retrain him especially mentally so he could become better, more able to do certain things at least, you know, to be able to assist himself and then from that time he didn't want to be separated from the family, he wanted to live with the old people, my mom and my dad and the three of them grew old gracefully together there and you couldn't separate the three of these people because they were very fond of each other and they had grown to live together for many years together. MS REDDY Can you tell us about the physical capacity of your father, the late Mr Edward Ferrero? MS FERRERO My dad had already gone old, he was on the verge of senility, he was starting to grow old and he didn't have much energy any more and he also kept very much to the home and didn't move around much and wasn't very physically fit any more, you could see that he was going downhill physically and mentally he wasn't very mentally capable any more because it seemed that it was Parkinson's setting in and there was a bit of senile dementia, so something starting to set in because he was becoming forgetful and he wasn't very capable of much any more. Just keeping near the home and keeping the home fires burning. MS REDDY What type of relationship did he share with the neighbouring people? MS FERRERO He was friendly, no over friendly to anyone in particular. He gave assistance where he could give assistance. He was there if anybody needed him, he was there but he was just a homely person I could say too. MS REDDY Did your father keep any guns in the homestead? MS FERRERO Yes he did have guns in the homestead, his guns were guns that have been in the family for generations and generations already. He had inherited these guns from his parents who had inherited them from their parents and so on and it was guns that were being passed on in the family. They were mainly heirlooms and antiques. MS REDDY Were these guns capable of being utilised? MS FERRERO Not unless they were serviced or maybe altered in any way but in their present form they weren't capable much of doing anything. MS REDDY Did your parents have any political affiliations? MS FERRERO None whatsoever, they weren't politically minded and they weren't politically affiliated to anything and furthermore they never got much news because in the valley you couldn't even keep a T.V. because there was no - the current or what could you call it but the waves couldn't reach the valley therefore T.V. never showed in the valley. They only had their radios for the little bit of news that they did acquire. MS REDDY What did your family actually keep on the farm? MS FERRERO They had cattle, they had goats, they had sheep, they had chickens, geese, ducks and they had some pigs and that was about most of the things that they kept on the farm. MS REDDY Were there many offences of robbery and such like offences committed in that area round about 1992? MS FERRERO There weren't much offences committed and it was very quiet in the area, there wasn't many people walking around excepting those that really needed help of some sort or the other but there wasn't much activity I can say on the farm. MS REDDY Were there any theft of livestock, machinery or otherwise on the farm? MS FERRERO Livestock there had been reports of theft of livestock but that used to occur far from the homestead. You know if the cattle strayed into the other areas then maybe sometimes you heard but it wasn't prominent feature as such but there were thefts. MS REDDY How would you describe your family's financial status? MS FERRERO I would say the family's financial status was alright because my parents never actually got any assistance like in the form of pension or anything, they were self sufficient. MS REDDY How far is the Richmond area from your father's farm? MS FERRERO Okay, the nearest is across the river but that's Richmond but the other areas, the real populated areas are far from near the farm, they are a good 30 kilometres to 40 kilometres away. MS REDDY Let's just go back to the incident where the first lot of firearms were stolen from your father's homestead. Do you have direct knowledge on that? MS FERRERO Yes I do. MS REDDY Can you please tell this Committee? MS FERRERO On that day my dad, a cousin of mine had arrived, was arriving from Australia after a long time to visit and my dad came into town and picked me up and we were going home because I had been working that day so we went home a little bit late, about 7 o'clock in the evening which was late for us because we never moved around so late and when we got into the home the windows were open in my dad's room and those windows were never opened really because they had been jammed for some years before because the homestead was old and we found the windows open and when my dad checked he found that all the guns, the guns that he had kept in his room were missing and the window was open. MS REDDY Do you know how many guns went missing? MS FERRERO There were four of them. MS REDDY How many were left thereafter? MS FERRERO There was only one left because it wasn't in the vicinity with these others it was in a different room. MS REDDY How many people lived on that particular homestead including employees? MS FERRERO Well it was only my mom and dad that lived in the house and Mtola had his own quarters below the house and then there were leases that had just started and they had employed a couple, a husband and wife that was living in the other house, little room that was below the house. Those were the only people that were living on the homestead. MS REDDY Did you have any security guards on the farm? MS FERRERO No security guards were on the farm. MS REDDY Do you wish to tell this Committee anything further? MS FERRERO Yes I would like to say something to the Committee, that today is a very painful day for us and that we are very heartsore as a family to come and sit here and to hear what we've heard today because we as a family have made our peace. We had accepted that what had taken place was a sheer robbery and a murder that had taken place and we had learnt to accept that and to let it pass by and we were shocked that today we've been called to hear other things that we've heard at this hearing today. MS REDDY Is that all Mrs Ferrero? MS FERRERO Yes, that's all I'd like to say. MS REDDY That's all Mr Chairperson from Mrs Ferrero. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY CHAIRPERSON Thank you ma'am. Ms Loonat, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT Yes Mr Chairperson. Madam, you understand that my client has expressed his deep remorse at the loss of your family members and your employee but you do understand that he has explained that there was no mens rea to commit either of these murders and in fact he wasn't party to one, the one that he was party to you understand was an instruction and from somebody who was senior. This was a political activity. My instructions are that he had to accept instructions from a comrade and this is how they functioned, you couldn't question, you just obeyed orders and it all happened very quickly. Further you understand my client was trained in political warfare, there was a lot of political activity, he honestly was led to believe that there was an involvement by your family members with the IFP. You do appreciate that if they came to rob they did not steal any of the cattle, livestock which they had been losing when the IFP were fighting them. When they attacked your father's farm it was purely to obtain firearms which they understood were being supplied to the opposing party. My instructions are that they just took what they really needed for their cause and you have confirmed that four guns were missing which only one was left behind. Today he has made full disclosure to you hoping to come clean and explain to you from their side what had transpired and not to cause you more pain. I have nothing else to say, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT CHAIRPERSON Yes. I don't know if you wish to respond to that, if you do wish then you can respond if you want to. Yes, is there anything that you want to say in response to that even though it's not necessary? MS FERRERO Yes I like to say there was a lot of cattle that went missing and goats after that incident that went missing. In fact all the goats went missing and the cattle we recovered very few cattle. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Ma'am, how old was your father and your mother at the time of the incident? MS FERRERO My mom was 71 and my dad was 75. MR MAPOMA I suppose you were not residing where they were residing at the time of their death? MS FERRERO No, I was in the village as close as possible to them because that was the nearest place there I could find employment because I had been in Johannesburg prior to this and because of my parents failing strength and they had nobody in the family that was nearby that could assist them, I had planned to come back and be as close as possible and try to get them out of the farm and into the village at least because they were used to their surroundings and they were quite resistant to change. That's why I came into the village. MR MAPOMA I didn't hear you, who was quite resistant to change? MS FERRERO The old people were resistant to change. You know, old people are not very easily removable, they're not people that can be removed easily from where they reside. As they grow older they become resistant to change. MR MAPOMA I see. Now when, I suppose from what you have just said the guns which were stolen before the incident, they were stolen through burglary, am I correct? MS FERRERO I would assume that it was burglary and we did believe that it was burglary. MR MAPOMA Yes, now other than those guns was there anything that was stolen on that day that the guns were stolen? MS FERRERO No, not that I know of, just the guns were taken. ADV SANDI If I can just ask, when was the burglary, how soon was it before the actual attack? MS FERRERO The burglary was in December 1992. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions? ADV SANDI Just one. Mr Mtola, are you able to estimate his age, what was he more or less? MS FERRERO Yes, Mr Mtola was about 60, he had just reached 60 and because I remember my dad was trying to negotiate an old age pension scheme for him. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Reddy, any re-examination? MS REDDY No Mr Chairperson, no re-examination. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, are you calling any other witnesses? MS REDDY No Mr Chairperson, that's all. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mrs Arensi, you are excused, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Loonat, have you got any submissions? MS LOONAT IN ARGUMENT Just my final address Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, my learned colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, one has to admit that there was a common purpose attack on that particular day to commit the crime which was motivated by the volatile political situation existing at the time. On page 19 of the bundle the learned judge states, line 6, that: "Something was taken from the house but what it was nobody is sure of." My client has in full disclosure has admitted to what he took and why and what he knew what the others could have taken, the co-perpetrators could have helped themselves to. Essentially my client has confirmed that firearms and ammunition was what was removed and the victims' daughter has confirmed that and no more. ADV BOSMAN Ms Loonat, as I understood the witness she confirmed that on the first occasion, no more than the firearms were taken, not on at the time of the incident. MS LOONAT I beg your pardon, I understood that at the day of the incident it was just the firearms and thereafter a lot of livestock and things were taken. I'm mistaken am I? ADV BOSMAN No, she did say that the livestock was taken thereafter but she did not say that nothing more than a gun was taken on the day of the incident. MS LOONAT Thank you. My instructions are that firearms for the cause, to counteract the incessant IFP attacks on my client's area and people was the sole purpose of the attack on that day. Mrs Ferrero was killed on instructions by the leader on that day, Mr Mduduzi. The murder was not a part of their plan from the outset, but in such situations panic and the ingraining of having to follow orders from comrades and people superior to you in the cause was what my client did when he killed Mrs Ferrero. He had the choice, it was either to kill her or be killed. What was his option? He obtained firearms and pump guns and the purpose of the attack as I said was purely political but certainly innocent people getting injured, maimed, killed as it happened on that day. His remorse has been expressed. The mens rea for murder has not been ascertained but to obtain firearms. He been honest in answering his questions to the best of his ability and he volunteers to implicate his co-perpetrators as best as he can. His intention today is for the truth and full disclosure and hopeful reconciliation and in the light of the above I ask that the Honourable Members of this Committee consider my client's application for amnesty. Thank you. ADV SANDI Can I just ask something here? Three old people are killed by a group of armed ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Two are killed. ADV SANDI Three. CHAIRPERSON No, two. Do you understand this position correctly Ms Loonat? The wife of the farmer and the person who was living with them were killed by the attackers. The farmer survived this incident but he died subsequently from some unrelated cause. MS LOONAT That is my understanding as well. CHAIRPERSON The farmer doesn't seem to have been killed or harmed in this, physically harmed in this incident. MS LOONAT That is how I understand it Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Alright, then I'm with you. ADV SANDI But we're not dealing here with a situation of victims who could hardly put up any resistance to these armed young men. What was the political objective for the killing of these people? MS LOONAT My instructions are it was, my client was led to believe as part of his meetings with his comrades that these people were known to be supplying firearms to the opposing party and the idea was get those firearms. One, to obtain it for their cause and two, to stop them giving it to the IFP who were attacking them and the question of the ages of the people. At the outset my client has been admitting that there was o intention to kill the old people it was merely to get the firearms and get out of there. ADV SANDI Yes but he says when he shot Mrs Ferrero he was acting under compulsion. Can he have a political objective? Can he have an objective in his mind if he was just doing this thing because he was scared of Mduduzi? He was afraid of Mduduzi? MS LOONAT My submission is that he was in a frame of mind of a political attack on this place and he was to take instructions from his senior. Admittedly the instruction to murder a helpless old lady is because Mduduzi would be recognised by him, is not a political act but it was a common purpose thing and this happened in the course of the events. ADV SANDI His evidence does not, as I understand it, does not really show any compelling necessity to kill them whilst they were there. They had been there the previous time, they got four firearms, they come back they get one firearm, they're not satisfied, they search the house, they don't find any firearms, they still kill Mrs Ferrero? MS LOONAT My instructions are that he had the choice, he was afraid of Mduduzi, he was his senior and at that time he didn't think further than which was his instructions, kill or he knew would be killed by Mduduzi himself. CHAIRPERSON Ms Reddy, have you got any submissions? MS REDDY Yes Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, Committee Members, audience, all I wish to submit at this stage is that can we really believe what the applicant has said us today? In his bail application previously he said that he was nowhere in the vicinity of the farm. Can we really trust what he says today? In his trial in the Supreme Court he actually said that he was not guilty, he put in a plea of not guilty. Can we really trust what he is saying? The victims, as evidence was led, were old feeble people. There was no reason for killing those two victims. Evidence was also led that these people were feeble in that they could easily been taken advantage of. If we ought to go back to the sentence that the Honourable Justice Hugo delivered, it relates in the sentence that there could have only been one motive for these killings and that was of greed. As evidence was led by Mrs Julia Ferrero that the family was relatively wealthy, this lies in support to that evidence. He couldn't prove to this court that he really was a member of the ANC. He couldn't show this court any documentary proof. He didn't bring any witnesses to testify on his behalf that what he was really telling this court was the truth. Mr Chairperson, that is all I wish to submit at this stage, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you ma'am. Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I have no submissions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Have you got anything you want to add Ms Loonat? MS LOONAT Just two questions Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes? MS LOONAT IN REPLY My learned colleague raised the issue of my client pleading not guilty at the trial and he does not deny that but his explanation was, as I recall, that he was brainwashed by his comrades when he attended these meetings, he was brainwashed into the fact that you do not tell on your comrades you just keep quiet and take what comes and this is what happened. ADV BOSMAN May I just put one question to Ms Loonat, please Chairperson? Ms Loonat, how do we explain that if people went to a farm with the intention of not harming the residents and they know, at least two of them know, that they are possibly going to be recognised because they are known to these people? How do we explain the fact that they took no precautions not to be recognised? MS LOONAT My client I seem to recall said that Mrs Ferrero would not be able to recognise him for some reason but did recognise Mduduzi and that is why he had to kill Mrs Ferrero because she recognised Mduduzi. ADV BOSMAN Well the question is should we believe that? Your client worked there about a year prior to the incident. Mduduzi was obviously known, surely in planning the operation they must have said well, these people know us or we know these people and they go there taking this risk of being recognised and they want us to believe that they had no intention of doing anything about it? MS LOONAT My submissions are from the instructions that I've been receiving that my client's mind was not so sophisticated at that time, he was actually just being led by his leaders and didn't think further as to having to conceal his identity and things, he just went in there with a political motive of removing firearms and run. Thank you. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you ma'am, is there anything else you want to add? You were dealing with the fact that your client pleaded not guilty? MS LOONAT That's right Mr Chairperson, just one more thing. The position about his documentary proof, he's been trying to say time and time again he doesn't have it, he doesn't deny it, he said how he has come about it, it is lying at home, it's just that he has been incarcerated and he has just not been able to get it. His family are not even here to support him today and on the issue of trying to get witnesses to prove his point, he has stated that he has written to these people in the light of the amnesty applications and asked them to come in line with him and he's got no response because his hands have been tied because he's been in prison and he is just not able to make that communication and it's unfair in his opinion that there were so many of them that were actually involved and only the three of them were finally arrested and he was charged and sentenced. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes that concludes the formal proceedings in this application. We will consider the matter and we will formulate a decision in this matter as soon as the circumstances permit at which stage we will notify all of the parties with an interest in this matter as to what the decision in the matter is. So under those circumstances the decision is reserved. Well thank you Ms Loonat and Ms Reddy, Mr Mapoma. MS LOONAT Sorry Mr Chairperson, I don't mean to interrupt but you were just saying that the interested parties here at the end of the session. Is the applicant's attorney sufficiently an interested party? CHAIRPERSON Yes absolutely, this is his application. MS LOONAT We are just not notified at any time as to what has happened. It's been one in all the incidents that I've done and that was after I wrote up to the Truth and Reconciliation to tell us please what has happened to our clients and we're just not getting that response back and we would like to know. Could you please when you do that make sure that we are informed? CHAIRPERSON Yes, would you take that up with Mr Mapoma? MS LOONAT I did and I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Who represents that side of the Committee here. MS LOONAT Thank you Mr Chairperson, I apologise for interrupting. CHAIRPERSON So we will make the decision available once it is ready. We'll now take the short adjournment, we'll reconvene in 15 minutes when we will proceed to deal with the next matter. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS