amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-18 DURBAN 4 MANDLEKAHISE JOSEPH MKHIZE AM4477/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53945&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99111518_dbn_991118db.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, we will now hear the amnesty application of Mandlekahise Joseph Mkhize, amnesty reference AM4477/96. The Panel is constituted as would appear from the record. Mr Panday, could you just put yourself on record? MR PANDAY Thank you Mr Chairperson. I confirm my appearance on behalf of the applicant Mr Mandlikhize Joseph Mkhize. Initial S, surname Panday. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Panday and then Mr Sibeko? MR SIBEKO Thank you Mr Chairperson. I confirm my appearance on behalf of the victims in this matter. My initial is M, surname is Sibeko, S-I-B-E-K-O. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sibeko and the leader of evidence? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma the leader of evidence. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Yes Mr Panday? MR PANDAY Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, the applicant is the first witness to be led in terms of his application he may be sworn in. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkhize, can you hear the interpretation? MR MKHIZE Yes. MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, is it correct that at present you are a prisoner in the Inkombe Prison? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR PANDAY And Mr Mkhize when were you first taken to Inkombe Prison? MR MKHIZE I was taken there in 1994 on the 3rd November. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, for what offence or offences were you sentenced? MR MKHIZE Attempted murder, as well as possession of a hand grenade. It was attempted murder with a firearm, a home made firearm and possession of a hand grenade. Those are the charges I was sentenced for as well as the ammunition I had in my possession. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, what term of imprisonment are you serving? MR MKHIZE In total it was 14 years imprisonment. MR PANDAY Now Mr Mkhize is it correct that you are now seeking amnesty in respect of the offences that you've been sentenced for? MR MKHIZE Yes I seek amnesty for the charges that the court indicted me and also because I did not have intention of doing that act but I was forced by the circumstances. MR PANDAY At the time of committing these acts where were you living? MR MKHIZE At that time I had no fixed residence because I was being sought by the police for the manufacture of firearms so I stayed with a relative. MR PANDAY Which area were you living in? MR MKHIZE It was at Empangeni, the Inkosi of that area is Zwelindale, I also stayed at Matigulu, that is where my father was born. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, the acts or the offences that you committed, in which area were these offences committed? MR MKHIZE It happened in the Empangeni in the Embo area. MR PANDAY Is that area described as the mid lows area? MR MKHIZE Mid Low is the town, it is a farm area but the crime happened at the tribal land which is under a chief. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, during that period of time were you a member of any political organisation? MR MKHIZE Yes I supported Mr Sepo Mkhize but this was done covertly because the ANC at the time was banned and if you were found out to be a member you'd be killed. MR PANDAY So is it correct to assume that you were an ANC supporter? MR MKHIZE Yes in other words I did support the ANC. In fact we had held discussions with Mr Sepo Mkhize for me to go receive training but he died, he was killed. MR PANDAY Mr Sepo Mkhize, what position did he hold in the ANC? MR MKHIZE He was the ANC leader in the area and he used to be the one person who informed us on the teachings and policies of the ANC as to what assistance it rendered to Black people. He would give us these discussions in secret because that organisation was not wanted in Umbumbulu. MR PANDAY Now Mr Mkhize, when did you first join the ANC? MR MKHIZE Around 1983 that is when I got into contact with Mr Sepo Mkhize, that is when we had discussions about this organisation. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, in the area that you lived or resided in, were there any other political parties in that area? MR MKHIZE Yes the one active organisation at the time was the IFP because if I'm not wrong it was found around the '70s and the ANC was still operating underground. MR PANDAY You mentioned that the IFP was from the 1970s. Do you know how the IFP came to be a party since the 1970s in the said area? MR MKHIZE It all started in schools, that is when we were indoctrinated with the organisation. Some people didn't support it and some of us did not have any regard to it. The people who were more concerned about it were our parents, the older generation. Amongst the youth the opinions were divided. MR PANDAY Now Mr Mkhize, during the '70s you mentioned the IFP were also a party in the area. Do you know any event that caused there to be an IFP and ANC parties in the same area? MR MKHIZE With regards to the ANC there was first the UDF movement. At that time people used to wear ANC tee-shirts. At the time the UDF was the operating arm of the ANC. The IFP was already in existence by then because they operated freely without any problems but the establishment of the ANC was considered by UDF. After the UDF was disbanded then the ANC operated freely, that was in the '90s. MR PANDAY And Mr Mkhize at the time that you became a member of the ANC did you experience any problems in the Ndlovo area? MR MKHIZE Yes there were serious problems at mid Ndlovo because there were wars that were going on, people were fighting White farmers in the neighbouring areas. It was actually people who were living, residing inside those farms so they would launch attacks at us in tribal areas. When we went to report such matters the police would take no notice of the people who were being killed. That started around 1975, 1976. People from Lupapa were attacked and they were driven out of the area but the police did not take an action, they did not arrest those perpetrators. The area Umgugamisa was also attacked. People from Tamele were also attacked. A few of them remained near Mr Delongo's area. It was just a few of us remaining. After a while those people from the farms returned and they resided in the area. At that time I was no longer residing at Empangesi but Umbumbulu. I was then living with Mr Sepo Mkhize's group because of the violence that went on in the area and also for the fact that no one was being apprehended for those acts and the police were clearly aligning themselves with the perpetrators. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, the mentioned that the police did nothing and were aligning themselves with the perpetrators. Who were the perpetrators? MR MKHIZE It was Mr Tandawasi Mtenga's group. He was their leader. The reason why I point a finger at the police is because the people of Empangisa would identify the attackers but no one will be arrested. This affected me deeply because it appeared that we were all going to be finished up and no steps will be taken. MR PANDAY And Mr Tembagasi Mtembu, who was he? MR MKHIZE He was one of the people who resided in Empangisa after conquering that area. He was the leader of the attackers. MR PANDAY And why were the police on his side or aligned themselves with him? MR MKHIZE They were related by marriage with some of the police because from the police's actions you could see that they aligned themselves. When we were attacked the police would come to us and look for firearms or weapons from our side and not from them so we would be disarmed so that they can attack us more easily. MR PANDAY Did this Mr Mtembu belong to any political party? MR MKHIZE I cannot be completely certain but he once came to us and informed us that he wanted a few young men who would go and be trained in the use of firearms, that is in the use of G3 firearms. I declined to join this group, that is one action that convinced me that he was aligned to the IFP. When we declined, some of us declined to join that group, we were then targeted for attack. MR PANDAY Okay, Mr Mkhize I'm going to now take you to the day of the 25th March 1993. This is the day where the police had come to arrest you, right? Now could you explain to the Committee the events that took place on that day and why you had launched an attack on the police? MR MKHIZE I will explain briefly. The police would regularly pick me up because I had explained to the court that I can no longer go to court myself because some people would lie on the way for me. The magistrate then advised me to contact the police who would assist me in getting to the court. I did discuss the matter with the police. On a certain day a certain police officer, Mr Mnengbe, informed me that he would no longer be able to fetch me because the people from the farms were complaining and I informed him the reason for their complaint is that they want to kill me. Mr Mnengbe said he was no longer going to pick me up. I then realised that I would no longer be able to attend court because I had already informed the magistrate of my predicament, that is people lay on the way for me and they would be in a better possession to kill me if I went by myself. That was when the warrant of arrest was issued for me. Nonetheless, the police knew that I could not go to the court voluntarily or on my own because I was afraid for my life. So on the day I was supposed to attend court people would wait for me along the way and they would wait for anyone who passed by and if they encountered a person they would kill them. That is how that warrant of arrest was issued against me for being absent at court but I was not absconding it's just that I had no other way to get to court. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, before you go on, you mentioned that people were wanting to kill you if you went to court alone. Why were these people wanting to kill you? MR MKHIZE It was for the reason that I supported the Mkhize group because they showed that they had conquered or they had captured the land after winning the war. In that way we as the indigenous people of Empangisa who were born and bred there did not align themselves with them. That is how the war started. MR PANDAY You talk about aligning yourself with them, who is them, aligning yourself with who? MR MKHIZE Mr Tandawasi's men. He then went back to Bangisa. MR PANDAY Is that the IFP you refer to? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR PANDAY Right now as a result of people wanting to kill you, you then escaped, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, now I'm going to take you to the day where you attacked police, where you fired shots at the police and where you threw a hand grenade at the police. I want you to explain to the Committee why you attacked the police by shooting at them and throwing a hand grenade at them or in their direction? MR MKHIZE On that day I was keeping guard at Golo Park. I done this to protect the community because a rumour heard that they were going to approach from a certain forest in the area. I remained in a ...(indistinct) forest on the lookout for these people. I waited there until dusk fell. Thereafter I returned to the Ingite home. They then prepared tea for me. As I was still drinking tea I was with Vyasan Luluva. The dogs started barking outside. I then thought this must be the people I had been waiting for because the house was along the road so they wouldn't approach from that road. I then decided to cock my firearm. A person then kicked the door in. I then realised this person was in a fighting mood so I started firing and then after that there was a load noise firing from all around. I told everyone else to lie on the ground and I'd be the only person firing back. It was obvious to me these people were heavily armed. When I ran out of ammunition and I could hear from the sound that was going on outside that they were also running out of ammunition, they were changing cassettes. I then found that the heaviest noise was coming from below. I then decided to throw the hand grenade in that direction. I was in a rondawel and I threw the hand grenade from the top of the rondawel and threw it to that direction where the loudest noise came from. I then fell down to the ground and cocked my firearm again, ready. After throwing the hand grenade I heard a woman's voice screaming, "Mandle, these are the police, they are not the attackers." I was surprised that they hadn't said anything. Why didn't they announce themselves? They were aware that there was fighting going on, why didn't they announce themselves and produce their badges? Why should we have to exchange such gunfire? The station commander then approached and he said "yes, we are the police" and I didn't understand because at the time there were people who went around killing people and they will do this in the name of the police so I did not believe him at first. Another police officer, Mr Njangasi, approached. I knew this Njangasi well so I recognised his voice. At that time I realised that these were the police and I thought of shooting myself and unfortunately I had run out of ammunition. They then asked for everybody else to leave the room and I was afraid that they might shoot me because I was an ANC person so I was afraid to come out, I remained in the rondawel but then everyone else persuaded me to come out and not be afraid. I then did so and I was apprehended outside the rondawel. They then started assaulting me, asking me where the firearms were I had nothing else besides the one that was in the house. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, you mentioned that you were afraid that the police might shoot you because you were an ANC person. Why would they shoot you just because you were an ANC person? Why do you think they would have just shot you? MR MKHIZE In the Ambo tribal lands most people, that is the elders even the Inkosi, were all IFP members and the ANC was labelled as terrorists because sometimes you will see helicopters on the lookout for those terrorists so you would be killed if you were found out to be one of them. MR PANDAY And Mr Mkhize was there any relationship between the IFP and the police? MR MKHIZE On my arrest I discovered that there was such a relationship particularly with regards to the station commander of Mid Illovo. When I was being questioned or when I was about to be interrogated he came with a certain ...(indistinct). He asked me what organisation did I belong to, the ANC, and I denied that because I was afraid they might shoot me because they were armed. I could even smell liquor on their breath. I thought that was the day for me that I was going to be killed because even Mr Sepo Mkhize was killed in custody. He cocked his firearm and pointed it, pressed it against my forehead. He told me that I should be killed and I thought that was the end. I started praying. They then left me but they told me that the IFP is much better. If you were an IFP member your case would go much better but we cannot ...(indistinct) the ANC in this area. That is when I realised that there was a good relationship. They even went to the extent of telling me that if I was an IFP member they would release me but because they suspect I'm an ANC member they would not. That was when I realised that the station commander and farmers and the people around that area were aligned to the IFP. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, previous to this incident did you know of any relationship between the IFP and the ANC? MR MKHIZE You mean prior to the commission of the crime? MR PANDAY Yes prior to the commission of the crime. MR MKHIZE It was only after my incarceration that I heard that there were moves towards reconciliation between the two organisations. I also heard that political prisoners should apply for amnesty. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, what did you hope to achieve at the time that you launched this attack on the people you report were attacking you? MR MKHIZE At the time it was to assist the community of Empangisa. They had suffered so many attacks that more than a thousand people had fled the area. That is why I felt I should protect the indigenous people of Empangisa who were not even protected or taken notice of by the protection services. My objective then was to protect the community. MR PANDAY These people that should attack the community, who were these people? MR MKHIZE Are you referring to their names? MR PANDAY Okay, did they belong to any political party? MR MKHIZE I would say some of them were aligned to a political organisation and some were supporters or sympathisers of that organisation. MR PANDAY Of which organisation? MR MKHIZE The IFP. MR PANDAY Now Mr Mkhize, on the day that you acted is it correct to be assuming that your actions were as a result of protecting the community from attacks that may be launched against the community by the IFP? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR PANDAY Now the ...(intervention) MR MKHIZE I had no intention of attacking the police, they were not my targets. I was just protecting the community on the realisation that the police themselves did not do anything. People were slaughtered like cattle and no investigations would be carried out so I was protecting those people but I had no intention of attacking the police. MR PANDAY Now Mr Mkhize, the weapon that you used what weapon was that, to fire the shots? MR MKHIZE It was an F1 hand grenade. MR PANDAY Was it an F1 hand grenade? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR PANDAY And the firearm, the gun? MR MKHIZE It was a home made firearm that I had made myself. MR PANDAY And where did you obtain the hand grenade from? MR MKHIZE I will explain briefly. After Mr Sepo Mkhize's death, his son Sibo gave the hand grenade to me and he said I should be on the lookout because after killing his father the same people would be after me. Mr Mkhize had been taken by the police for interrogation and he was killed in their custody. Sibo then gave the hand grenade to me for protection because his father had been killed by the police for establishing the ANC in the area. MR PANDAY And do you know where Sibo Mkhize obtained the hand grenade? MR MKHIZE No I do not have knowledge thereof but he did hand it over to me. MR PANDAY Now Mr Mkhize, were you found with any other weapons in your possession? MR MKHIZE I will explain. After we suffered those attacks I managed to make or to be able to make firearms so I would manufacture those firearms. ADV SANDI The hand grenade, where did you get it? MR MKHIZE It's the same hand grenade as I obtained from Sibo Mkhize whose father had been killed. After that incident we realised that we were also amongst the targets. ADV SANDI Did he tell you where he had obtained this hand grenade? MR MKHIZE No he did not. ADV BOSMAN Who taught you how to make firearms? MR MKHIZE My father bought me a pellet gun a pellet rifle, there was another person, a certain Mr Mgamo, whom I approached as to how I could alter my pellet firearm to make it into a home made rifle. He showed me and that is how I learned because I was intelligent I could catch on quite quickly. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, where was this Mr Mgamo from? MR MKHIZE Please repeat that question? MR PANDAY Where was the man who taught you how to make firearms, where was he from, which area? MR MKHIZE Indwengo but I understand that he is now deceased. MR PANDAY And do you know if he made firearms for any other persons or political organisations? MR MKHIZE He would manufacture them to assist the people who were under attack because even in his area, the Indwengo area, there were ANC supporters who were under attack from the IFP and the IFP came from the Inyoni area so he would make those firearms to assist the people who were under attack. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, I'm going to refer you to a translation of your affidavit that you had drafted. Sorry Mr Chairperson, one for me to hand the affidavit to the applicant first? CHAIRPERSON Yes where's this in the bundle? MR PANDAY The affidavit is on page 24, it starts at page 24 and finishes on page 29 and the translation is from page 21 to 23 of that affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Is it just a typed version of it? Okay. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, I'm going to show you an affidavit that was taken down and this is on pages 24 to 29. Now the signature that appears at the end of the affidavit, can you confirm that that is your signature? MR MKHIZE Yes it is mine. MR PANDAY And you confirm that you had - and who helped you write this affidavit? The signature appears here where my finger is, is that your signature? MR MKHIZE Yes that is mine. MR PANDAY Who helped you draft this affidavit? MR MKHIZE An inmate at the Ingome Prison. MR PANDAY Okay, Mr Mkhize I'm now going to refer to a typed version of your affidavit that appears on page 22. Page 22 is a typed version of your affidavit or the part I'm going to refer to you. I will refer to paragraph 2.10 and in that paragraph you say in your hand written affidavit there "As explained they were assisting Inkatha who were fighting us." Now who was assisting the Inkatha when the Inkatha was fighting? MR MKHIZE It was people like Tando Kwasi and other people from that area like Masitela. There were many of them but Tando Kwasi Mtembu, he was their commander. MR PANDAY And one more thing Mr Mkhize, on page 21 of the same affidavit, paragraph 2.1 the translated version is that the date of the incident was the 29th March. Now the court record reflects the date of the incident as the 25th March. Now is there an error in your affidavit or was the an error in the ...(intervention) MR MKHIZE Well I cannot say because I was assaulted and that rendered me to be in a confused and dazed state so I did not really take much notice of the date so I will think that was a mistake on my affidavit. MR PANDAY So the date should be the 25th March as according to the court record? MR MKHIZE That is correct because the courts always takes notice of those dates. As a prisoner I was exposed to various forms of assaults so I was confused. MR PANDAY Thank you Mr Mkhize. Thank Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Panday. Mr Sibeko have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Yes Mr Chairperson. Sir, if I follow you correctly, from your evidence you've given so far the origins of the conflict in your area, will I be correct to say it was a result of the tribal conflict, faction fighting? Answer the question, Sir? MR MKHIZE Yes there was a war that erupted between the people who lived on the farmlands and the people who lived on the tribal lands. That is how it started. MR SIBEKO And yet at that time there was no political organisation involvement? There was no involvement of any political organisation? MR MKHIZE At that time yes there was no political involvement because we were still young. It was faction fighting, they wanted to capture that area. MR SIBEKO Now Sir, you say well of course this thing started when you were still young. Now you mean to tell this Committee of course it has been an ongoing faction fighting for which was kept carrying on in a number of years or there had been some period where there was a lull or of course then of course it will stop? What was the position? MR MKHIZE It was periodical, there would be an attack and the people would be driven out of their area and then there will be a lull, it would erupt again and the same people would be driven out. There were periods when there was a lull in the war. In 1990 we decided that we were not going to involve ourselves in the faction fighting but we were going to concentrate on fighting for the rights of the community. We then met as the youth in a meeting in Umbumbulo. MR SIBEKO Now Sir, during that entire period when of course they had, had there been any stage where of course there was some sort of peace being brokered between the warring factions that is maybe those groups which was from the farmers and your people that in what you term the indigenous people of Empangisa? MR MKHIZE I will not hide the facts from you. The peace could have been brokered if the Ingosi took any initiative in the war but he himself did not take any notice of the community so there was no peace that could be brokered. The people were just driven out, the police would also be informed and they would not take any steps. MR SIBEKO Yes Sir, now let me see whether I get it clear. Now you are saying that when the Ingosi was doing nothing, how many Ingosis were in that area per se or alternatively let me refer to it this way, now these people whom you were fighting with, that is the people from the farmers and you being the indigenous Mkhize group, were you belonging under the same Ingosi? MR MKHIZE We are under our Ingosi, Zwele Injani because White farmers had captured parts of his land and I would then regard the people from the farmlands as belonging under one Ingosi but in practise they were under the farmers so we only regarded ourselves as belonging to the Ingosi, Zwele Injani. MR SIBEKO So in other words what you are telling us is that when actually these people, the farm hands actually because you say that of course they were staying with the farm, the were residing in the farms which of course were belonging to the Whites, is that correct, if I follow you correctly? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR SIBEKO Now those attacks you are telling us were launched from the White farmers to your area, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR SIBEKO Now surely then say then what was the main reason were they motivated by the fact that when they had to drive you off you left? MR MKHIZE They just wanted to completely destroy us and capture our land. It was after attacking a certain area the same White farmers would then use that land to farm so that is what was their objective. MR SIBEKO So what you are saying is that when those people were in employ of the White farmers? MR MKHIZE I would not say they were employed by them but they didn't do anything. Moreover, White people enjoyed the fighting between the Black people so they didn't care because they gained and benefited because after those lands had been captured they would then start farming them. MR SIBEKO And the very same ones the people you had been fighting then surely then after when they had secured those lands, your lands, then of course they would remain landless because the White farmer will be the one of course who will be the owner of those lands. Is that right what I'm saying? MR MKHIZE Yes they had a serious problem because they were now under restrictions from the White farmers because they could not farm and get as many cattle as they wanted so I could see that they wanted the land so that they could live their lives as freely as they could. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Sibeko. Mr Mkhize can you explain something? You've just said the White people enjoyed the fighting that was taking place between the two factions. Can you explain what do you mean by that? Why do you say that? MR MKHIZE The White farmers are our neighbours at Empangisa. When the war was going on they did not do anything to broker peace or to contact the Amakosi that is why I say they enjoyed that fighting because we were the only people who were fighting who experienced war. There was peace in our lands and they would not do anything but when we went to their lands they would then take up arms. The same people from their farms who would attack us would hide in their farmlands and when we attack, launch counter-attacks, they would take up arms and they would call the police to come patrol and be on the lookout for any attacks that may be launched. That is why they say they didn't care about our fighting. ADV SANDI And the issue of political affiliations in respect of ANC and IFP, how does that come into the picture? Can you explain that? MR MKHIZE In 1990 the youth then met and discussed this issue of faction fighting and it was decided that that is not productive. What we should be embarking upon is a campaign to fight for the rights of residents so we are the people who met as an organisation and they also started having meetings which they held in the open but our meetings were in secret. I explained what I could about the ANC to the youth such education that I had received from Mr Sepo Mkhize. I then explained to them that they should go to the Isopingo office to obtain membership cards so that we could form a united voice. So there were people who had already joined the ANC and had membership cards. That is how the political, that is how it became political. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Sibeko? MR SIBEKO Now Sir, you further mentioned that well of course, now when did this issue of political affiliation exactly did it start taking place? Was it after the 1990s or before the 1990s, that is the issue of political affiliation, IFP versus the ANC? MR MKHIZE You're referring to Empangesa? I don't quite understand your question would you please repeat it for me? MR SIBEKO Now you mentioned that sometimes you then you decided to organise youth where of course you decided to teach the local youth about their rights and all those things and then you solely seeked them to go and get membership cards at Isipiwe. Then my question is when was that? MR MKHIZE In 1990 that's when the youth organised itself. We started holding meetings and telling each other to join the ANC in Empangisa because the youth wanted to defend themself and they wanted to belong to an organisation, an opposite organisation. MR SIBEKO Now you say some time in 1990 I take it it was probably when, was it sometime in June or when? You don't remember? MR MKHIZE Beginning of 1990. I do remember because in 1987 Mkhize tried when moved from Atanile and the beginning of 1990 that's when we started. MR SIBEKO So then in 1990, beginning of 1990 coincidentally it came with the unbanning of the ANC, is that correct, where then you started organising some of these meetings, secret meetings as you have put it? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR SIBEKO Now Sir, what I find very strange, why then was it necessary for you to engage in a secret meeting when of course ANC by that time it was now an unbanned organisation where people can freely operate. MR MKHIZE As I've already explained that in the area the elderly were IFP. We, the youth, we didn't see through one eye like the elderly in the area because we didn't want the elderly to look at us as mischievous and we also didn't want to have problems. Yes it was unbanned but in the area the elderly were IFP and they were going to kill us even though it was unbanned in the country as whole but in the area it wasn't as easy to be freely participating as a member of ANC. MR SIBEKO Now will you agree with me, if I am following your evidence correctly, before you started these meetings there had never been any conflict between the ANC and the IFP in that area, is that correct? That is before 1990 organisational? MR MKHIZE The conflict started in 1992 to 1993. That's when the incident when I shot at police occurred. It was because the police knew that I was in conflict with them and the IFP and also when I was approached and recruited that I should go and train and I refused. That's when they were shot at. I wasn't one of them. There is IFP in Empangisa. MR SIBEKO But be that as it may, Sir, the fact of the matter is from the first, 1990, 1991 up to 1992 because you said you started having a problem, of course then the area was enjoying a relative peace, is that correct? MR MKHIZE I will say there was never peace in the area. The only thing I can tell you is that most of the incidents which occurred they were never published. I will say in 1987 people were killed at Empangisa but this was never reported in the media or never reported in any documents. There are quite a number of incidents which were never published. MR SIBEKO Sir, I understand what you're saying but the fact of the matter is from what you have just said, you said for some time there was this period from 1990, 1991 where of course there was this - you started forming or then structures were created. You said at having these meetings. In fact you never encountered any problem, is that so? At there was no harassment that was coming from anywhere? MR MKHIZE We encountered problems before we formed ANC formally because I do remember an incident when police came in a school and started shooting at children and I saw this with my eyes and children came and they told us they were being shot at by police and when I asked them why they didn't know but then they wanted to go across a certain farm to fetch reports but most incidents were never published or reported. ADV SANDI Sorry, when did that happen, the shooting of children by police? MR MKHIZE I'm not certain but I think it was in 1989. At that time UDF was the predominant party. We had held a meeting at Kwadweno and people wanted to go and report their problems in the police station and children were shot at. MR SIBEKO But I understand what you have just said before the Committee but now my question of course, I'm still hammering on this point that you said that you started having conflicts up to 1992, 1993, that's when of course the whole mayhem, trouble started with the IFP organisation, is that so? MR MKHIZE Yes it is so. MR SIBEKO So Sir, if that's the case why then was it necessary for you to have these secret meetings when there was this relative peace which was in that particular committee and if I'll gather from you then there was no harassment whatsoever which was occurring at that time? ADV SANDI Sorry, I think he's explained for more than two times that in this area the elderly members of the community are generally IFP orientated and the youth organised themselves and they ended up here that they sympathised with the UDF, ANC faction and they didn't want that to be known by the elderly members of the community because of all kinds of problems it would result in? MR MKHIZE It is so. MR SIBEKO Yes Mr Committee Member, well I do concede he has explained but I'll move on, in fact I'll come back to that question then. I apologise. Now Sir, you mentioned furthermore in your evidence in chief earlier on that you were receiving instruction from Sepo Mkhize, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR SIBEKO Now at what stage? MR MKHIZE You mean I must tell you about when Mr Sepo Mkhize gave me instructions? It started in 1985. Usually he was explaining to us that there will be an organisation that will come into place, that organisation will be fighting for the rights of the human beings. In 1987 I was found guilty because of my participating in a conflict of violence. I do remember this because on of the people who participated with me went to exile. The reason was because he was harbouring terrorist. Therefore from there I restricted myself into participating more often. Sepo Mkhize was the one who was guiding us. He was lecturing us on how to hide things more especially when you're talking about ANC as an organisation because it was going to land him into trouble. MR SIBEKO Now where was this Sepo Mkhize staying, residing? MR MKHIZE At Entenjani in the district of Umbumbulo. MR SIBEKO Now will I be incorrect if I were to say then when Entenjani and Umbumbulo and mid Illovo are situated a distance apart? MR MKHIZE Yes they are but they are under one district because I will say for example my father has a house in Illovo but where he was born was in Umbumbulo near Entenjani. These areas are close. People from Entenjani can also be residents of Illovo. Yes it is a distance from one area to the other. MR SIBEKO Now do you have any idea whether the police at Umbumbulo area were under KwaZulu government services and at mid Illovo then they would be belonging to South African Police Service? MR MKHIZE Yes I do know that because I do remember at one time when they were looking for me for manufacturing these firearms. The police from Illovo were looking for me and also when I was arrested for participating in the violence they took time to get hold of me because I was arrested by the Umbumbulo police and the Illovo police were looking for me and people told me before they could come and arrest me. I do know that they were ZP's and SAPs. ADV BOSMAN Can I just come in here to clarify one thing? They were looking for you because you were involved in making arms. Did you ever train as an MK soldier? Were you an MK commander? Did you have anything to do with MK? MR MKHIZE I was manufacturing arms and I was distributing these arms to the ANC supporters and ANC members because I wanted them to protect themselves with those guns that I was manufacturing. ADV BOSMAN You see why I'm asking the question is on page 11 which is a translation of your application you say that you were an MK commander? MR MKHIZE When Sepo passed away I was the one who was training other ANC supporters and I was showing them how to handle firearms because Sepo had been injured and had been killed. In 1991 I was the commander but not an MK but a commander in the area. ADV BOSMAN Then why did you say that you were an MK commander in the underground branch? MR MKHIZE It is because at the time everything we did was underground and also I was a commander. Everything we did was underground. ADV BOSMAN How did you become a commander? MR MKHIZE You mean in my area? Yes I was a commander in my area because I had more information on manufacturing firearms and also I was the one who was selecting people to go on war or violence. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Mr Sibeko, you may continue. MR SIBEKO Now in your area, Empangisa area, were there any structures which were in place which were created by the organisation? MR MKHIZE What do you mean by structures? MR SIBEKO I take it Sir that surely you are familiar with the underground work that is the ANC cells, the letter boxes and all those things, were there any such structures in Empangisa area at mid Illovo during that time? MR MKHIZE It was the time when we started forming those structures but we never succeeded but we just started doing that. We never succeeded because of the elderly them being present all the time. We were not free at Empangisa. MR SIBEKO Let me see whether I follow it correctly? So then whatever what was in place at that time in Empangisa area was purely then a political work that is maybe then organising the youth in the area at that time, it had nothing to do with maybe then the defence activities, self defence activities that were taking place in the area? MR MKHIZE Yes it was like that. The reason we formed structures as youth it is because we realised that we were being attacked and we saw that this was destabilising us and we decided that we as youth we didn't need to live in situations like that and we should create a better future for us. We needed an organisation which was going to be there for us, an organisation which was going to fight for our rights because we couldn't stand the boers and then now the IFP. The boers came and took our land and now these people were also attacking us and they also wanted to take our land, therefore we decided that we needed to join an organisation which was going to fight for us. MR SIBEKO Yes I see, Sir, so then it means in other words your affidavit in fact, page 21 and page 22, paragraph 2.13 where you said you were a normal self defence unit member was incorrect because as you say all these things were still at the formative stage, you were still in a state of preparation? MR MKHIZE You mean it was in the initial stage? Yes it is so. In our area I won't dispute that. I was the one who was targeted as someone who had more knowledge about ANC because most of the time I wouldn't stay there, I will go to Umbumbulo and come back and also I'll tell them that we should organise ourselves in order to take care of our area but we couldn't do all these things freely and you can call us SDUs because all we did was to protect the community and to do underground work because also manufacturing guns, one cannot manufacture guns in front of anyone or letting anyone know about it because the government never wanted anyone to do that. They were the ones who were allowed to manufacture guns, everything I did I was doing it underground. It was my secret. MR SIBEKO So I put it to you Sir that in fact you were never a self defence unit member nor an MK commander but as you say yourself, if one follows your evidence, you were more often organiser than anything else in the area, is that so? MR MKHIZE Yes can also say that because I was organising the youth but also you can also say that I was a commander because I was the one who was distributing firearms and also even the youth told me that I should be the one who'd be their commander because they told me that if I wasn't present people were being attacked and killed but if I was present they were not killed. I remember one incident when the Xongo boy was killed at the Zwelenjani and the Moyeni area and sometimes when they come to our area they will attack during the night. This was before I was arrested and when they tried to attack these areas I was the one who was against them and I defeated them and after that that's why they selected me as their commander. MR SIBEKO So in other words when those people were attacking you it was the continuation of a tribal faction fight, will I be correct? Because you were able to ward off that attack? MR MKHIZE I will say the attackers had already acquired the land because they were one of us, the residents of Empangisa and I'm telling you, even if you can go there you'll still find those old places where they were staying. They had already acquired the land but they were still harassing us. They wanted us to join them and they also wanted us to join them to go to Caprivi and train as IFP armed wing. We didn't want to do that. They had already gained because they had already acquired the land but still they went further, they wanted us to join the IFP. This we refused so myself and the youth we counter-fought them. ADV SANDI Who wanted you to join the IFP? MR MKHIZE Thando Kwasi and his group. Thando is the one who came and told us that they needed men to join them and to be sent to Caprivi for training, that's when I realised that they wanted us to be trained on firearms and come back and guard the chiefs and the Indunas because they had legal guns, G3s and pump guns and I refused. That's when they realised that we were not aligned with them and that's when they suspected that we belonged to another organisation because we refused what they had requested from us. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Sibeko, just another question? What exactly is in dispute, the background he is giving, is that in dispute? Is it in dispute that he was a member of the organisations he has referred to? Is it in dispute that he had this ability to manufacture arms? MR SIBEKO Sir, actually what is in dispute is that at the time when of course this offence which this applicant is applying, there was a political motive and objective. Now the part is in dispute is that in that area concerned there was no political strife whatsoever in that area and there was no presence of any political organisation in that area so basically that's up on that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now can't we come to that? Let's deal with this incident before us, let's hear what is the basis of your opposition if there is any? Put it to this applicant, let the applicant response to that and let's move on with this application, alright? MR SIBEKO Sir, you further mention although you were not a commander you were reporting to Sepo Mkhize is that correct? Now what I will like to know, after Sepo Mkhize passed away to whom were you reporting? MR MKHIZE After they had passed away that's when we, the youth, organised ourselves. I went to Sipimo offices and I reported the matter that there were people coming from the tribal areas attacking us. That was the time when I was charged because I had already absconded my bail. People who had been killed, ten of them, at Empangisa. I used to report in the office. MR SIBEKO Now Sir, furthermore you mentioned that you had absconded in your criminal court case. What was that criminal court case all about in paragraph 2 and 4? MR MKHIZE I was arrested because of participating in this violence. People from Empangisa and Maholdo were attacking each other. MR SIBEKO So you got arrested as result of your activity in respect of the matter which you subsequently absconded? MR MKHIZE I was arrested and I was given bail. That is when the police who were supposed to come and fetch me everytime I was supposed to appear before the court didn't come and fetch me. After I had told the magistrate ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkhize, you've told us that in great, great detail. We've written everything down as you said what happened about your case, the police wouldn't give you a lift and you were forced to stay away. Don't repeat it, just respond, listen to what the question is, just respond directly to the question, don't retell the whole story. We've already got it, we won't miss anything, just tell us something new, alright, and stick to the question please? Yes Mr Sibeko? MR SIBEKO This criminal case which you subsequently absconded, what was it all about? CHAIRPERSON Yes didn't he answer that now? He participated in this conflict and he was charged. MR SIBEKO Mr Chairperson, in fact I didn't follow it, in fact ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes there was some conflict and he was charged for participating in the conflict. MR SIBEKO I put it to you Sir one of the victims who happens to Mr Njanga, he is going to testify in this Committee that actually it had nothing to do with the political conflict in the area and in fact it had to do with, it was actually an attempted murder where of course you had a quarrel with a certain gentleman where you shot him, a Mr Makwiki, that is all. It had nothing to do with the political conflict or anything in the area per se. What will you say to that? MR MKHIZE It is politically motivated. Even then in my trial they did explain this. I didn't want to tell the court that I was an ANC because I was scared. MR SIBEKO I further put it to you that Mr Njanga is going to testify that actually you had no reason to fear the police because they used to provide you transport you to and fro court and at no stage of course did any harm befall you? So of course there was no reason to fear about your affiliation, political affiliation, what do you say to that? CHAIRPERSON Do you agree or disagree? MR MKHIZE I disagree because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. No, no, not because, because of nothing. Next question? MR SIBEKO Mr Njanga again will further testify to this court that on the day in question actually in fact he himself announced himself that when they arrived at her hut, he was the one who of course identified himself as the police officer and you did confirm that you were familiar with his voice. In fact there was no reason for you to react in the manner in which you reacted? CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about the shooting, are we there now, on the incident. So did you follow that? Have you got a response, one of the policemen said that you knew him or you knew his voice of whatever so you don't need to shoot at them? MR MKHIZE After I heard his voice then I didn't continue shooting but when I first started shooting he had said nothing. MR SIBEKO And I further put it to you that actually the victims furthermore they're going to testify that in actual fact you are the one who opened fire at them first in fact and thereafter then, before they could do anything you threw a hand grenade at them? CHAIRPERSON Yes I think there's no dispute there, I think his evidence is that he cocked his gun, somebody kicked open the gate and then he opened fire, right? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR SIBEKO Finally Sir, I put it to you then the victims furthermore are going to certify before this Committee that in actual fact this had nothing to do with the political conflict because there was none whatsoever. In fact you were running away from them of the pending charge which of course was already hanging over your head. That is why you reacted in the manner you had reacted by shooting at them in fact without any provocation? CHAIRPERSON Yes you can respond to that but you don't need to repeat what you've already told us. If there's anything new that you want to say in response to that statement then you can do so? MR MKHIZE It was truly political and I was politically active at that time. They can say whatever they want to say. I had reason for being scared of them because I realised after they didn't come and pick me up that they wanted me to be killed by those people. The reason why they were taking me to court was because they were protecting me. MR SIBEKO Now how many times did they take you to court? MR MKHIZE If I'm not mistaken it was quite a number of times and the last time they brought me back home they searched my house, they were looking for arms, firearms and they couldn't find any but I think they'd taken me quite a number of times. MR SIBEKO During that occasion when they used to take you to and fro of course you had become quite accustomed to them, more specifically the ...(indistinct) those people who used to ferry you to court? MR MKHIZE Yes Nyembe more especially because usually he'd come even when he was alone and he told me that other police were not prepared to come back and take me and he also told me that it was his last time. That's when I realised that I was supposed to go and hide because I saw that there was no one who was going to protect me. MR SIBEKO Sir I further put it to you the victims are going to testify that at no stage as being the members of the South African Police Service in any way assisted IFP in any fight whatsoever in that area. But there again, what do you say to that? CHAIRPERSON Do you agree or disagree? The police said they never helped the IFP. Do you agree or disagree. You don't have to tell us the full story again that you testified about. MR MKHIZE I disagree because sometimes you'll find SAP who are IFP sympathisers and sometimes you will find SAP who are ANC sympathisers therefore I cannot say I agree or disagree. MR SIBEKO So in other words your statement in paragraph 2.10 in page 22 of your affidavit you are not certain where you said as explained "they were assisting Inkatha who were fighting us" so in the light of what you've just said you cannot be quite certain because there were others who were fighting who were IFP and who were ANC so the ANC/SACP there was no way they could have assisted IFP members that is Inkatha? MR MKHIZE I will explain that. There are SAP police who are IFP sympathisers and also SAP who are ANC sympathisers. They just belong to SAP as police. MR SIBEKO No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sibeko. Mr Mapoma any questions? MR MAPOMA I have no questions Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Panel? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR PANDAY No. Sorry Mr Chairperson, the applicant he indicated he had two witnesses to be called namely his brothers. Their affidavits are reflected on pages 30 to 39. Now his sister is present and we've taken note that the brothers are not present. Can I just confirm with the applicant that he still requires his brothers to give evidence and have that placed on record, Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PANDAY Mr Mkhize, during consulting with you, you indicated that you had two brothers, B Mkhize and M Mkhize who will be giving evidence at your application. Now they are not present. Do you still require them to give evidence at your application? MR MKHIZE Yes I still do require them because they were the people who came to Umbumbulo to fetch me when they were being harassed. What I think is that they were not told as to when the Committee is going to sit and where the Committee is going to sit because I communicated with them over the phone. MR PANDAY Sorry Mr Chairperson? I think the applicant indicates that he would like for them to be present. CHAIRPERSON And what are they going to say, can you just explain to us? MR PANDAY I think the affidavit reads simply that they merely confirm in terms of the conflict, the tribal conflict that had taken place in the mid Illovo area, that's on pages 30 to 39. CHAIRPERSON Yes let's have a look at that? Is that in dispute in this case? Let's see? MR PANDAY I do not believe it to be in dispute Mr Chairperson as the brothers will merely testify that there was a conflict and that part of the tribe had followers to the IFP side and the other part had gone onto the ANC side. The only thing is that they may really be able to collate the events a bit better as opposed to what the applicant has but the essence I believe is still the same Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes well should you not listen to what evidence is tendered in opposition to your client's case because we're not quite sure at this stage exactly what the opposition is? MR PANDAY Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then reassess your position and consult with your client and hear whether this sort of thing is strictly necessary? But if it's not really in dispute then it doesn't really assist the matter so perhaps you should hold back what you intend to do. MR PANDAY As the Committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well is provisionally the evidence that you had? MR PANDAY Yes Mr Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Sibeko, do you intend to tender any evidence in opposition to this? MR SIBEKO Yes Mr Chairperson. Yes I'll call Mr Ntshangase Sir. CHAIRPERSON Crawford Sipho Ntshangase, do you want to call him as a witness? MR SIBEKO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes where's Mr Ntshangase, let him sit there next to you. CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Sibeko? EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO As the Committee pleases. Mr Ntshangase, is it correct that you were a sergeant attached with the South African Police Station at Illovo? MR NTSHANGASE Yes that is correct. MR SIBEKO For long have you been stationed in the mid Illovo area? MR NTSHANGASE I've been there for approximately 10 years. MR SIBEKO Now Sir, you have heard the evidence which of course has been led by the applicant in his application for amnesty, is that correct? MR NTSHANGASE Yes that is correct. MR SIBEKO Now we have heard that he's asking amnesty for the action which took place on the 25th March 1999? MR NTSHANGASE Yes that is correct. MR SIBEKO Now can you tell this Committee briefly as to events which led to what happened on the said day? MR NTSHANGASE In fact I was investigating a case of attempted murder against Mr Mkhize. Then Mr Mkhize was arrested, given bail, but at a certain time he failed to appear before the court and then there was a warrant of arrest issued against Mr Mkhize. MR SIBEKO Now this attempted murder case which subsequently was granted bail, did it emanate from - was it due to a political conflict happening in the area or what was it all about? MR NTSHANGASE No, as far as I know there was no political activities in the mid Illovo area. This thing only operated from the faction fighting that was taking place in the mid Illovo area. MR SIBEKO Now are you familiar with the applicant in this case? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR SIBEKO Now for how long have you been in the area? MR NTSHANGASE I've been in the area for ten years but I've known the applicant for almost about three years. MR SIBEKO That is three years before this incident then? MR NTSHANGASE Yes before this incident took place. MR SIBEKO Now on this fateful day what happened? MR NTSHANGASE Sir I went to Mr Ngete's kraal together with my colleagues. When I got to Mr Ngete's house I knocked at the door, identified myself, Sergeant Ntshangase from mid Illovo Police and then I requested the applicant before court to open the house. Just after I identified myself to the applicant there was a gunshot fired right at the door. MR SIBEKO Now who was it you were with at the time when you approached the place? MR NTSHANGASE It was Sergeant Dlamuga, Sergeant Kulu, Sergeant Ralu, Sergeant Osborne, Inspector Dippenaar, Sergeant Nyembe and Sergeant Gcabashe. CHAIRPERSON How many people did you name now? MR NTSHANGASE Nine, nine altogether. CHAIRPERSON Are you colleagues, you were also stationed at the same place? MR NTSHANGASE Yes that is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON So including yourself it was nine? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Carry on. MR SIBEKO Now Sir, why was it necessary for you all nine of you to approach the Ngete's kraal, nine of you because instead of going two or three of you apprehending the applicant? MR NTSHANGASE No the fact is that it was dark at night and then we had received information that the applicant was already in possession of a hand grenade. MR SIBEKO Now you say that when you arrived there you identified yourself. How did you identify yourself? MR NTSHANGASE By shouting loud, saying that I'm Sergeant Ntshangase from mid Illovo Police and asked the accused to open the door, I was coming to arrest him in connection with the attempted murder case that he was charged for. MR SIBEKO Now after you had said that what happened? MR NTSHANGASE Just after I'd said that there was gunshot fired at the door where I was standing next to it then after that there was a hand grenade thrown at the same time after that shot was fired. MR SIBEKO Now this hand grenade which was thrown at you, did anyone sustain any injuries? MR NTSHANGASE The hand grenade was thrown through the window and Sergeant Dlamugo who was Constable Dlamugo at that time was injured. MR SIBEKO Now after then, this episode of you having one of your members injured as result of the hand grenade thrown at you, then what was your reaction, what did you do? MR NTSHANGASE There were gunshots fired by the police to the hut where the applicant was. MR SIBEKO Now this gunshot was it before the throwing of the hand grenade or after the hand grenade was thrown at you? MR NTSHANGASE The gunshots were fired by the police after the hand grenade was thrown out. MR SIBEKO Now did anyone who was inside the house injured as a result of your gunshot? MR NTSHANGASE Nobody was injured at the house. MR SIBEKO Now you have heard furthermore the applicant stating that there has been some instances where of course you were colluding with the IFP members in the area attacking some people of Empangesa area? MR NTSHANGASE No that is totally a lie, as I have said mid Illovo area there was no political activities like ANC or IFP in that area. CHAIRPERSON Now first you must understand, he didn't say you personally, he didn't say you personally, his perception was that members of the police were colluding with the IFP in the area? MR NTSHANGASE That is not correct. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that's not correct? MR NTSHANGASE That's not correct. CHAIRPERSON Can you speak for each one of the police in the area? Are you speaking for yourself or are you speaking for the police now? MR NTSHANGASE I'm speaking for myself the way I know, the area in my station and my colleagues in that area, they were not involved with anything. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Sibeko? MR SIBEKO Yes, now mention was made of the presence of faction fighting which was to take place in the area or what was happening in the area. Are you familiar with some of the aspects of these tribal faction fights which was taking place or which used to take place? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR SIBEKO Now when you say that's correct, when was the last time when the faction fights happened or was it during that time sometime when in March 1992, was there any faction fighting carrying on or taking place? MR NTSHANGASE At the time this incident took place there was no faction fighting but about two or three years back after this there was faction fighting in this area of Empangisa. MR SIBEKO Now the applicant has further testified before this Committee that he was a member, - before I come to that was there any organisational ...(indistinct) in the area that is whether it be an IFP or ANC at Empangisa area? MR NTSHANGASE As far as I know there was nothing of such matters. CHAIRPERSON What sort of policeman are you, are you a detective or what are you? What kind of work were you doing? You say you're an investigating officer, were you a detective or were you a crime investigator? MR NTSHANGASE No, I'm a detective. CHAIRPERSON Were you a detective at that stage? MR NTSHANGASE At that time I was investigating under the uniform branch because mid Illovo Police didn't have some detectives. CHAIRPERSON Or in uniform, you had nothing to do with security matters? MR NTSHANGASE Nothing at all. CHAIRPERSON Political matters? MR NTSHANGASE Nothing at all. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Sibeko? MR SIBEKO Now Sir, now if of course there was any political activity was it possible, would you have known about it? MR NTSHANGASE Yes if there was any political activities we would have known about it. ADV BOSMAN Sergeant - if I may just come in here Mr Sibeko? It's very difficult to believe that there was no political activity. I can understand if you say there was no political conflict. Can you just clarify that for me please? MR NTSHANGASE I can say there was no political activities, or conflict, both of them, that took place in mid Illovo because the way I know mid Illovo there was no branch of either ANC or IFP in the area or any other organisation. ADV BOSMAN But this was when people were beginning to get ready for the elections and everyone was talking about the release of President Mandela. This is why I find it bit difficult, I mean people in the country were generally discussing politics, was there no talk about politics in this area? MR NTSHANGASE I can see the way it looks but mid Illovo is such that people of that area they were very quiet as far as I know. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Mr Sibeko. ADV SANDI Do you mean to say that there were no people in this area who either believed in the ANC or the IFP? MR NTSHANGASE If there were I think they were taking that secretly because no on actually shown himself or identified himself as an ANC or any other item like that. ADV SANDI Did you see any flags around for the ANC or IFP? MR NTSHANGASE Flags, there was nothing at all and that is the truth what I'm telling you. ADV SANDI No security branch office in the area? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct, there are no security branches in the area. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR SIBEKO Now, this mid Illovo area, is it an urbanised area or a semi-rural area or rural area? How is it? MR NTSHANGASE I can say it's a rural area. MR SIBEKO Now are you familiar with what the said applicant has stated before this court that when in fact well they used to be a faction which was aligned to IFP, that is Mr T Mthembu who used to launch some attacks from the farm areas? MR NTSHANGASE Yes, I know Mr Mthembu but the way I know him is that he didn't belong to any political activities, political organisation because even the day the applicant showed that to Mr Mthembu it was just a friction just between the applicant and Mr Mthembu because the applicant, he didn't want Mr Mthembu to be appointed as an Induna for the youngsters because Mr Mthembu was just coming from the farms. MR SIBEKO So now let's for clarity purposes of the Committee, now Induna, you mean the Induna is Indonesiso? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR SIBEKO What's the rule of Indonesiso in a tribal rural set up. MR NTSHANGASE The work of an Indonesiso is to look after the youngsters if there's some weddings or anything that took place in younger people in the area. MR SIBEKO So now in your knowledge was at some stage maybe then or later, well before this incident happened, Mr Mthembu that is aligning himself with the IFP people, with the IFP? MR NTSHANGASE No I don't know anything of such. ADV SANDI Did Mr Mthembu say to you he did not believe in any political cause? MR NTSHANGASE Yes Mr Mthembu was questioned about that but he told me that he doesn't belong to any political organisation. ADV BOSMAN Do you say that Mr Mthembu was a traditionalist? MR NTSHANGASE No, I cannot be specific with that but I can say he does belong to the traditional. ADV BOSMAN Is it not so that the traditionalists were by the youngsters, that's maybe why they didn't want him. Were the traditionalist not regarded as IFP by the youngsters? I'm not saying he was IFP, I'm asking whether the youngsters who perceived him did not perceive him as an IFP person or can't you answer that? MR NTSHANGASE No I cannot answer that. CHAIRPERSON But is it possible because there seemed, to my mind, there seemed to have been this identification of people who held positions of authority in the traditional system was regarded as some are being linked to the IFP? So is the proposition that my colleague put to you not possible? Even if it's wrong but that is a perception of the young people? MR NTSHANGASE No, I cannot comment on that. CHAIRPERSON You can't comment? MR NTSHANGASE I can't comment on that. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Sibeko, sorry. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Chair. What I find it difficult to understand is that if there are no political clashes in this area why did you have to ask Mr Mthembu if he believed in any political cause in the course of your interview of him whilst you were investigating this case against Mr Mkhize? MR NTSHANGASE The reason was that we wanted to find out whether it was a faction fight or it was a political. As it was already mentioned here at that time there was some political conflict all over South Africa so what we had to find out whether this then was related to the faction fight or it was related to the political things. ADV SANDI The attempted murder had taken place in your area where there was no political conflict? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. ADV SANDI Now why did you have to ask him if he belonged to any political organisation? It could never have been a politically motivated attack if what you're saying is true? MR NTSHANGASE Yes as I'm saying there was no political activities in that area of ours, the only thing is that the applicant and the Mkhize people, they didn't want Mr Mthembu to be appointed as an Induna of the youngsters because he was from the farm and he was new in the area of Empangisa so they wanted a person who would be in the area for a long time and whose other Mkhize family because most of the Empangesa area belongs to the Mkhize people. ADV SANDI But you still asked him if he was aligned to any political organisation and you say the reason for that was because you wanted to find out if the attack was politically motivated? MR NTSHANGASE Yes you see I can say in the old government if there was a crime committed he had to be reported to the area commissioner then at the area commissioner, when you report a crime, they will ask you whether it was political or it was not political. We had no record of that crime that's why I asked that question to Mr Mthembu. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Sibeko, carry on? CHAIRPERSON Just before you do that. Mr Sibo Mkhize, was he linked to the ANC? MR NTSHANGASE As far as I know he was linked to the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Mr Sibeko? MR SIBEKO Now just a recap and follow up of what was said, this question. Now was Sibo Mkhize operating within mid Illovo, do you know him? MR NTSHANGASE No, I don't know MR Sibo Mkhize but all what I know that he was operating from Umbumbulo area. MR SIBEKO So in other words what you are saying is that of course when Umbumbulo area it's another jurisdiction than your jurisdiction? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct, mid Illovo doesn't fall under Umbumbulo, those are two different places. MR SIBEKO So in other words in the old South African set up then will you say that mid Illovo belonged to Natal and Umbumbulo belonged to KwaZulu Natal? Was that the position? MR NTSHANGASE It was like that. MR SIBEKO So in other words that is why the police were then that's why at Umbumbulo area then there was a KZP which was operating there, you at mid Illovo then, there was SAP? MR NTSHANGASE Yes that is correct. MR SIBEKO Now Sir, you further heard that the applicant has testified before this Committee that when he was suspected you of aligning yourself with the IFP members then of course there had been some instances when some of your members had participated in the attacks? MR NTSHANGASE That is not correct. MR SIBEKO So now will you briefly tell this Committee the reason why the offence which of course was committed on the 23rd March it had nothing to do with the politics, is that what you are telling me now? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct, that's what I'm telling you is the correct. This incident was not related to any political activities. MR SIBEKO So now how would you explain the applicant firing at you when you announced yourself? MR NTSHANGASE I can explain. The applicant, that's the type of person who wouldn't like the police or he didn't want to be arrested or taken to jail, that is the reason why he fired at the police. MR SIBEKO Now he has mentioned to this Committee that he no longer trusted you because you could have been in cahoots with the people who may have wanted him out, what do you say to that? MR NTSHANGASE I would say that the applicant is lying because several times I, myself fetched the applicant from his house to the police station to court when he was supposed to appear before the court and then I'd done that several times, he used to phone me or send messages and then I will take up the police van, go and fetch him to court and then after that I will take him back from court to his house. MR SIBEKO So now when he absconded I take it that a thirty days period had already expired when you started looking for him or what was the position? MR NTSHANGASE After he had planned to appear before court and then we started to look for him. ADV BOSMAN Can I just come in here again. Tell me, Sergeant Ntshangase, did you at any stage or one of your colleagues indicate to him that you were no longer prepared to take him to court and to grant him some sort of protection? MR NTSHANGASE As far as I know what happened on that day, you see Illovo is justice police station with about 20 members and then we had two police vans. On that day when he failed to appear the court one van was broken and then it was only van at the police station so we explained when the applicant phoned at the police station, we explained to him that we will not be able to fetch him because we only had one van, the other one is broken so he must try other means to come to court. ADV BOSMAN Was it not a reasonable inference that he then drew that he was not safe? MR NTSHANGASE On the side of maybe the complainant in the attempted murder case maybe I can say that he was scared of the complainants in that attempted murder case. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. ADV SANDI Can you just explain this, did you go to look for him on the same day he had failed to appear in court? MR NTSHANGASE Yes on the same day after the court then I went to Empangisa and then I did send a word from the Zonde Store to tell him that he must come to court or he must try and contact me so that I will make other arrangements to come to court and then because a warrant of arrest was issued but I explained to the magistrate the reason why he had failed to appear before court because the applicant was very well known to me. ADV SANDI This place where this shooting took place you went there on the same day that he failed to appear in court? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct, I went on the same day. ADV SANDI The information that he had a hand grenade, when did you get that information? MR NTSHANGASE The information came about two or three weeks after he failed to appear before the court. ADV SANDI I don't follow you now. He fails to appear in court and you go and look for him and the shooting incident takes place on the same day, not so? MR NTSHANGASE No, I mean to say the accused failed to appear before court then I went to his area where he stayed then I left a message with the people to tell him that he mustn't be afraid that just because he failed to appear before court he will be arrested, he must phone me and I will still be prepared to fetch him and take him to court but he didn't do that. Thereafter that we then, after about two or three weeks we then received information that he was also now in possession of a hand grenade and he was not prepared to come to court any longer. ADV SANDI Thanks Mr Sibeko. MR SIBEKO Now Mr Ntshangase, you have mentioned that you were a police officer in that area. For how long have you been in mid Illovo? MR NTSHANGASE I've already said I've been working there for ten years. MR SIBEKO So in other words you are quite familiar with people of the area? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. ADV SANDI Now one last question. No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Have you got any questions Mr Panday? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Yes Mr Chairperson. Mr Ntshangase, before we go into your evidence, could you explain to the Committee members why Mr Mkhize was afforded the privilege of the police fetching him and taking him to court on every occasion, what was the reason for that? MR NTSHANGASE The reason was that when he goes to court he had to go past the complainant's house before he gets to the police station or to get to court. MR PANDAY Mr Ntshangase, you're an investigating officer, isn't the long course of events it's normally the complainant that is afraid of the accused and not the accused that is afraid of the complainant? MR NTSHANGASE It is like that but just because as I've said Mr Mthembu with his brothers there on the farm there, how can I put it, I can say the applicant was just afraid of Mr Mthembu with his brothers. MR PANDAY Alright, now Mr Ntshangase, when you were stationed at the mid Illovo Police Station how long were you a policeman from your appointment at the mid Illovo Police Station? MR NTSHANGASE I've been there for 10 years. MR PANDAY And how long are you in the police force currently? MR NTSHANGASE At that time? MR PANDAY At the time you were in mid Illovo, were you already ten years in service? MR NTSHANGASE I was 8 years in service when this incident took place at the time. MR PANDAY So you got about almost 14 years of service in the police force? MR NTSHANGASE Yes it's affirmative. MR PANDAY Thank you. Now Mr Ntshangase, were you resident in the mid Illovo area, were you born and brought up in the mid Illovo area? MR NTSHANGASE No I was born and grew up in Howick area. MR PANDAY So it would be correct to assume that you would not know of the happenings in the community of mid Illovo, you were effectively an outsider to that area? MR NTSHANGASE Since I was there for a long time ...(intervention) MR PANDAY No, just answer my question, you were born and brought up in the Howick area, that is correct right? You've confirmed that? Now in the mid Illovo area, did you live there once you became appointed as a policeman? MR NTSHANGASE No I only worked there. MR PANDAY You only worked? MR NTSHANGASE Yes. MR PANDAY So you attended work and you travelled back to the Howick area, is that correct? MR NTSHANGASE I only travelled to Howick area on the weekends when I'm off. MR PANDAY Okay. Do you also associate with the people in the - forgive my pronunciation, in the area from which the applicant lived in? Did you associate with the people in that area? MR NTSHANGASE Yes Sir. MR PANDAY In that you spent time with them except your working hours? MR NTSHANGASE Yes that is correct. MR PANDAY What sort of time would you spend with the people in that area? MR NTSHANGASE No, just playing soccer with them then attending meetings if there's some meeting called up by the chief and other people in the area. MR PANDAY What were these meetings called up for? MR NTSHANGASE Just to make peace maybe if there two - or during the faction fighting at the time. MR PANDAY Now Mr Ntshangase, this faction fighting, would it be possible that one side of the faction supported the IFP and the other side supported the ANC? I'm asking you if it would be possible, I'm not asking you to give me a confirmation, would it be possible? MR NTSHANGASE As far as I know it wasn't associated with any political activities. MR PANDAY So you are saying ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry, why would it not be possible? MR PANDAY Because if people were just fighting there over girlfriends just fighting over can say about Zulu dancing, that's what the cause of all this faction fighting. ADV SANDI Is it not possible that one party in the course of this faction fights would perceive the other to be aligned to the ANC and one group perceive the other to be aligned to the ANC and so forth? Aren't those kinds of perceptions possible? CHAIRPERSON May I add you've already said that Sibo Mkhize seems to have been clearly aligned to the ANC and you said that this applicant is associated with him? Is it Mkhize, the area belonged to them, you said? MR NTSHANGASE The area belongs to the Mkhize family but I will say definitely the thing was not - the Zulu dance or everything that caused the faction fight was not involved with the politics. ADV SANDI Sorry, just explain, how would the applicant be aligned to the ANC if there was no ANC in that area? MR NTSHANGASE I will say that if the applicant is just asking for amnesty or to be freed from jail because he's been sentenced for quite a long time now he wanted other means to get out of jail because really what happens at mid Illovo there was no political ...(indistinct) in the area. MR PANDAY I think Mr Chairperson there's a storm on it's way. Mr Ntshangase, let me put this more simplistically, it's correct that you are in the police force, isn't that so? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR PANDAY There are also many members in the police force. Now in this police force you are a group of people right? Like Mr Mkhize he is a group from the Mkhizes that belonged to a group in the area. Now in the police force isn't it possible that most of you will be aligned to different political parties, you will have different political views, is that not possible? MR NTSHANGASE It is possible. MR PANDAY Now why is it not possible in this scenario? Just to clarify for you, if we have the Induna, he is a person you must accept that he is not an animated thing, he's a person, he lives. He's got people that follow him. You mentioned that this Induna is there to guide the youth to solve problems. Now if he's seen as a person of a figurehead, as a person with standing in the community, isn't it possible that this Induna could have very well guided the people to follow the IFP? MR NTSHANGASE It is possible but as far as I know at mid Illovo there was not a single incident that was reported which was related to the political activities. If there was anything we could have known of that. MR PANDAY Okay Mr Ntshangase, you also mentioned that you played soccer now and then with the people in this area. Did you associate with the Mkhizes as well in that area? MR NTSHANGASE Yes affirmative, I was playing with Mkhizes and everyone in the area. MR PANDAY Did you discuss problems with the Mkhizes as well? MR NTSHANGASE If there was anything that involves them I would discuss problems with them. MR PANDAY No, that's not what I'm asking you, did you discuss any problems with them? Sorry, did you discuss the conflict that exists between the Induna and Mkhizes? MR NTSHANGASE Yes affirmative we did discuss it. MR PANDAY What was their response? MR NTSHANGASE No the Mkhizes, they wanted the Mthembu people to go back to the farms, they didn't want them to come and stay in the Empangisa area. MR PANDAY Now Mr Ntshangase, you also mentioned that you would know if there was any political activities in the area. Now is it correct that you mentioned in your evidence that the people may keep quiet as to their political affiliation, isn't that correct in your evidence, it was mentioned? MR NTSHANGASE Yes it was mentioned. MR PANDAY Now isn't it also possible that this Induna didn't let you know, you mentioned you had discussions with him, you know that, you've mentioned it a bit earlier. You mentioned that the Induna was to take care of the people around that point of evidence but is it not possible that the Induna didn't want to tell you that he was an IFP member? MR NTSHANGASE The Indunas, they are the ones who used to give us information what is happening to the area because we used to keep in touch with them several times but at this stage they'd inform us if anything that involves politics in the area. MR PANDAY No but my point being, Mr Ntshangase, if there was any political activity why would the Induna inform you that it's political if he was hiding his political affiliation. If people in the area kept a secret of their political affiliation why must he now tell you of the political affiliation or any activity that's political because to an effect the Induna he had to have been on a political side? MR NTSHANGASE As I were saying we were working hand in hand with the Indunas and everyone. I think I don't see any reason why he would hide that to me, he can tell me what was happening. MR PANDAY But he may very well have chosen not to tell you, that's also very possible. Now Mr Ntshangase, you mention a lot that you worked hand in hand with the Induna. Now the applicant has testified that there was always a perception that the police worked hand in hand with the IFP. Now isn't it very well possible that on the day of the attack that firstly the applicant thought that he was being attacked by the attackers, the IFP and he was also scared of the police because they believed them to be part of the IFP? MR NTSHANGASE As I've already said there was no political organisation in the area and then there was no reason, the police at mid Illovo would not have been involved in any of these things because there was no political activities there. MR PANDAY Mr Ntshangase, you seem to stress the point that there's no political activities, what was the date that you were appointed in the mid Illovo area as a policeman? MR NTSHANGASE It was in 1984. MR PANDAY 1984? Now in 1984 isn't it correct that the organisation, namely the ANC was still banned? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR PANDAY Now when you joined the mid Illovo back in 1984 what was your position there? MR NTSHANGASE I was a constable. MR PANDAY And at the time of the arrest of the applicant isn't it correct you were merely the investigator? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR PANDAY And the primary concern of the police in the mid Illovo area was to attend to more criminal activity not political activity in the area, is that also correct? MR NTSHANGASE Yes I will say that is correct. MR PANDAY Now then isn't it also possible that the police in the mid Illovo area were not always kept abreast of any political activity or underground activity in that area because this would have come obviously from special branch and not your regular police? MR NTSHANGASE Yes that is correct. MR PANDAY Thank you. Now Mr Ntshangase, just to get one more important question, in your affidavit on page 80 of the bundle of documents, if you'd like a copy I've got a spare copy, if you would just read it? Right, you testified in the beginning in your evidence that you identified yourself and then the constable kicked the door in and it was at that point that shots were fired. Now let me refer you to paragraph 4 of your affidavit that states that as is quoted "On our arrival at the door I knocked at the door" Right? "I knocked at the door", is that correct? MR NTSHANGASE Yes. MR PANDAY Right now this is where the change in the evidence comes "And Constable le Roux kicked the door open. After that there was a gunshot which was fired from the inside of the door." Now the discrepancy in your evidence now is that you knocked, you identified yourself and then the door was kicked. Now where does the discrepancy lie, in your affidavit on page 80 or the evidence that you've tendered before this Commission? MR NTSHANGASE The evidence on page 80. MR PANDAY Is that the correct version? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR PANDAY Okay the reason we'll also submit was that in keeping with the version that the applicant has put before this Committee that he heard the footsteps and the door was kicked in and the shot went off. Right, now more importantly Mr Ntshangase, the applicant has testified that he believed that at that point he or the people in the area were being attacked by the attackers, namely the IFP. Now keeping in line with what you've mentioned, that paragraph 4 is now the correct version of what took place, isn't it now very possible that when that door was first kicked in this applicant immediately responded by thinking that the attackers were now attacking them as opposed to the police coming to arrest him? MR NTSHANGASE The point here that I'm against it, is that you've saying that IFP mentioning political things. At that stage, as I've said, there was no politics in that area. That is why that is the point I'm against it on this applicant here, on this application here. MR PANDAY You see Mr Ntshangase, whilst you can accept that or whilst we may listen to what you are saying that you are against the application on the basis that there was no political activity, what you must also bear in mind is that you were not in a position to know of any political activities because one, your job revolved around mainly criminal activities as in murders, robberies, as in the normal routine of what you policemen would attend to in these areas. You never received any directives from the special branches that there were political activities and as you've testified the special branch has never kept you, you or the mid Illovo Police abreast of any political activities. Now that we find hard to believe. We're not saying you're a liar, we're just saying that this information cannot be within your knowledge and as such it doesn't put you in a position to challenge the version of the applicant. Do you have any comment on that? MR NTSHANGASE No comment. MR PANDAY Nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Just a few Mr Chairperson. When Tandakwasi Mthembu told you that he belonged to no political organisation, did you believe him? MR NTSHANGASE Yes I did believe him because as I've already said we didn't know any political activities in our area. MR MAPOMA Is that the reason why you believed him? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR MAPOMA Did you ask the applicant what political organisation he belonged to? MR NTSHANGASE No I didn't ask him. MR MAPOMA Why? MR NTSHANGASE Because to my knowledge and since I was in the area for a long time I didn't have any information or got any information in that regard to the political activities. MR MAPOMA No, no, no, no, Mr Ntshangase. You see you were dealing with a situation there when Mthembu was a complainant of attempted murder from Mr Mkhize. Now in the course of investigation of this you asked the complainant whether he belongs to any political organisation, he gives you an answer, you believe him. Why don't you ask then the accused person? MR NTSHANGASE That could have slipped out of my mind on that day. MR MAPOMA Do you know Sepo Mkhize? MR NTSHANGASE No, I didn't know him but I used to - I heard about him. MR MAPOMA And you heard that he is Sibo Mkhize's father? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR MAPOMA Did you hear that he was killed by a policeman? MR NTSHANGASE Yes that is correct. MR MAPOMA Did you hear that he was a member of the ANC? MR NTSHANGASE Yes I heard about that. MR MAPOMA Now during all this were you aware that the applicant was also a member of the ANC? MR NTSHANGASE No I wasn't aware of that. MR MAPOMA Yes, now you agree with the applicant that Tandawasi Mthembu was the leader of what you call a faction which were staying in the farm? MR NTSHANGASE Yes. MR MAPOMA And in the other area it was the Mkhizes? MR NTSHANGASE No, Mr Mthembu was staying on the farm before thereafter they moved to Empangisa area where the most Mkhize people stayed. MR MAPOMA Yes. Yes. So at least three of the Mkhize's now were members of the ANC, you were aware of that weren't you? MR NTSHANGASE Can you repeat that? MR MAPOMA At least three of the Mkhizes, during the faction fighting, what you call the faction fighting, three of the Mkhizes at least were members of the ANC that was known to you? MR NTSHANGASE Yes that is correct but I would like to comment on that. At that time when Mr Sepo Mkhize was already dead at that time when this incident took place and I'm not sure but Sepo Mkhize at that time was already the deceased or not. MR MAPOMA Yes fair enough. Did you at all investigate, I'm not asking you personally now, was it ever investigated the causes of what you call the faction fighting? MR NTSHANGASE Yes it was investigated. MR MAPOMA Who investigated that? MR NTSHANGASE It was members, my colleagues in the mid Illovo area. MR MAPOMA Did you get the report? MR NTSHANGASE What else I can say is that you see it was investigated in this way, maybe a person would be killed and then a murder docket will be opened and it will booked to a certain officer and then he will investigate that murder case. MR MAPOMA Yes, so you were just investigating a crime which was committed in the course of what you call the faction fighting? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR MAPOMA You did not go deep into investigating what are the causes of this faction fighting? MR NTSHANGASE I can say we went deep because we used to question the people, ask them what they were fighting for, what was their reason, the reason why they were fighting and then they will tell us this fight started over because the Mkhize people didn't want Mr Mthembu to be elected as the Induna for the youngsters because he was new in the area, they wanted the Mkhize people to be nominated as Induna of the youngsters. MR MAPOMA I see. Now where is Mthembu? MR NTSHANGASE At the present stage? You've asking at the present moment? MR MAPOMA Yes, yes. MR NTSHANGASE I don't know now because I've left mid Illovo about three years back. MR MAPOMA I see. When did you leave mid Illovo? MR NTSHANGASE I left mid Illovo in 1996. MR MAPOMA Now before you left what organisation did Tandakwasi Mthembu belong to? MR NTSHANGASE As far as I know I didn't know which organisation did he belong to. MR MAPOMA Oh, up till 1994 you didn't happen to know which organisation Mthembu belonged to? MR NTSHANGASE That is correct. MR MAPOMA Thank you. No further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions? ADV SANDI In April 1994 were you still at mid Illovo? MR NTSHANGASE Yes I was still there. ADV SANDI Did any elections take place there, did the people participate in the April 1994 elections? MR NTSHANGASE Elections did take place. ADV SANDI How did that go? MR NTSHANGASE As far as I know everything went alright, there were no complaints to anybody, from any side. ADV SANDI I take it that you cannot claim to know the political perceptions that existed at mid Illovo at the time we're talking about today? MR NTSHANGASE I can say I know everything that took place at that time since I was working there in that area for a long time. ADV SANDI I'm talking about political perceptions. You can't claim to know that who thinks what about who politically, can you? MR NTSHANGASE Since there was, as I've said, since there was no political activities that took place or movements or anything that took place at that time I will say there was nothing of that matter. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN Mr Ntshangase, you conceded that Mthembu was a traditionalist. Would you say that the Mkhizes were also traditionalists? MR NTSHANGASE Yes you can say both of them were traditionalists, that's so. ADV BOSMAN And the youngsters there, were they not a little less traditionalists than the older people? MR NTSHANGASE I would not comment on that but although most of the youngsters in the area, in that area, they were still up with these elder people doing Zulu dance together, everything together. ADV BOSMAN But you did say that there were some differences on the Zulu dancing. Was it not because some people were less traditionalists than other. MR NTSHANGASE It's not that causes the faction fight or the quarrel over the Zulu dances because the quarrel over the Zulu dance would appear if one group have performed better than the other group. ADV BOSMAN I misunderstood you there. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Sibeko, re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Now do you know whether Sibo and Sepo Mkhize, were they staying in mid Illovo, Empangisa location? MR NTSHANGASE Both of them were not staying in mid Illovo area. MR SIBEKO Now how did you come to know about it, was it through the word of mouth, in the newspapers or what? MR NTSHANGASE No, we used to hear over the radio and then sometimes when they go to Umbumbulo because Umbumbulo and mid Illovo were just close to each other. MR SIBEKO So in other words do you know whether the applicant was associated with Sepo Mkhize? MR NTSHANGASE As far as I know I didn't know that the applicant was associated with Sepo Mkhize, I only found out just when they have made this application here. MR SIBEKO Now when you've heard that when you answered that you've considered that Sepo Mkhize was killed by the members of the police. Now will you clarify as to which members because earlier on you mentioned that there is KwaZulu Police which were under KwaZulu Government and the SAP which were belonging to the old South Africa. Now this Sepo Mkhize, which police officers killed him? MR NTSHANGASE If I'm not mistaken, Sepo Mkhize was killed by KwaZulu Police then Sibo he was shot at Lamontville by the I think it's the SAP. MR SIBEKO So in others words Sibo was waging a war against the whole police force who specifically was targeting KwaZulu Police, or what? MR NTSHANGASE I can say he was targeting to all the police. MR SIBEKO That is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Ntshangase, you are excused, thank you very much. MR NTSHANGASE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Sibeko? MR SIBEKO Mr Chairperson well I don't think, because I was under the impression that maybe then I'll call the second victim but I don't think it will take the issue any further. CHAIRPERSON Yes well if he's not going to add any substance to what Mr Ntshangase has said who seemed to have been very intimately involved with the case, with the incident that happened and the background to the area and so on and so forth. It might not be of some assistance. MR SIBEKO I think what the only aspect he can only comment is to the day when this thing exactly happened. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SIBEKO Yes I don't know whether maybe then, but I'll leave it in the hands of the Committee maybe it would be appropriate and maybe then make some input as to actually what did he see and what was the reaction. CHAIRPERSON Yes well do you believe that he can add something on the incident itself? The other witness that you had in mind? MR SIBEKO Yes. CHAIRPERSON You think so? MR SIBEKO There are two or three questions. MR PANDAY Sorry, Mr Chairperson, the witnesses coming before the Panel are going to testify what the documents in the bundle insofar as the incident is concerned, that is not in dispute. Even the sequence of events in terms of the political motivation, if there was political motivation, I will submit cannot seem them taking the matter much further unless they have some specific knowledge and that's not disclosed in this bundle and so the purpose of expediting this matter, Mr Chairperson, I'll submit that even if one has to accept the evidence in the bundle materially does not effect or cause any prejudice to the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Yes there doesn't seem to be a real dispute on the incident but given the sequence of what happened that night seems to be common cause? MR SIBEKO Yes Mr Chairperson, I think I do concede, I don't think it will take the issue further. CHAIRPERSON Yes you can argue on the papers too if you want to, there are the affidavits but they don't really add much. Will that be the case on behalf of the victims? MR PANDAY Yes, yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, have you got any evidence you're tendering? MR MAPOMA I have no further evidence Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Panday, have you got any submissions on the merits? MR PANDAY IN ARGUMENT No Mr Chair, I think it's pretty self-explanatory except for the evidence tendered by the witness, Mr Chairperson, that itself one can gauge that the witness was not in a position to judge the political situation in the area and as such that his evidence does not indicate a substantial ground for opposing the application brought by the applicant for the amnesty in relation to the incidents that took place on the 25th March I think it's 1983 and the applicant's version is quite simply that there were attacks being launched against the ANC by the traditionalists who obviously at that stage seemed to be supporting the IFP and on the day in question it was perceived that the attack was that of the IFP and the retaliation was on that basis as a result creating the political basis. Nothing further. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you Mr Panday. Mr Sibeko, any submissions? MR SIBEKO IN ARGUMENT Mr Chairperson, well of course it is my humble submission that the offence which occurred on the 23rd 1993, it cannot be said to be committed under the political objective. It's further my submission that although it has been said by my learned friend the witness who has just testified is not in a position to gainsay as to the political perception in the area. Mr Chairperson, well it is my submission that we are not dealing with a situation a stage where in the '80s the ANC was already banned and there was a free political activity and as a person who is anchored in that particular community, being a police officer, he has been here for the past eight years, he knows the political barometer and as to the political perception of the people of the area, he's in a better position to know actually as to what was happening. Now the only reasonable conclusion, the context in which the act was committed, again Chairperson it's further my submission that it cannot be said there was a political objective in the sense that it was clear that the applicant in this instance, he had absconded with the criminal case which was pending which the affidavit stated that people were approaching, members of the police force, then he opened a gunfire that some of the police members were affected. Therefore Chairperson, it is my submission that as for the aspect whether then Sibo or Sepo Mkhize, we are talking about two different areas. Sibo Mkhize as of course the witness has testified, Sibo Mkhize and Sepo Mkhize, they were staying in a totally different area which happened to be at Umbumbulo which is a distance away from mid Illovo and I further submit, Mr Chairperson, that given the conflict what was happening at KwaZulu at that time, there was this general perception that the IFP it was given that the IFP be the ZP, that is the KwaZulu Police were in line with the IFP but in this instance which as of course the evidence has been led before this, the victims then, which was quite considered by the applicant in this instance that the police officers at mid Illovo, they were under the area of jurisdiction of South Africa which necessitated they were under SAPS vis-a-vis not under KwaZulu Government which can indicate a little level of political bias in executing their duties. Mr Chairperson, on the strength of that what I've highlighted, it is my submission Mr Chairperson, that this offence when that was committed there was no political objective. That is all. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sibeko. Mr Mapoma, any submissions? MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT Thank you Chairperson, if I can just contribute. Chairperson, it is not disputed that there were differences between two groups in that area and as a result of which the applicant had to shoot at somebody hence the victims were shot at, that is the actual reason which apparently caused the shooting in the mind of the applicant at the time on the evidence before us. Then it therefore shifts the focus on what were the causes of this difference between these two groups which is described by the police as a faction fighting and nothing else. Then I would therefore say, Chairperson, that the Committee has to be careful now not to just dismiss it as a mere faction fighting which was happening there, especially given the fact that one of these groups was dominated by the Mkhizes and it has since transpired in this evidence that the Mkhizes have got a history of being ANC members and they have got a history of a ...(indistinct) with the police for that matter. So it would be highly improbable to just say that this was just a mere faction fighting and for that matter we don't have an explanation as to exactly what were the causes of this fighting expect for the version of the applicant who was, he himself, involved in the conflict personally. So that being the case, Chairperson, I would say that in the circumstances the probability is that there was in fact really a fight between the ANC and whatever, if it was not IFP. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Panday, have you got anything else you want to add? MR PANDAY No Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well that concludes the proceedings. The Panel will have to consider all of the evidence and the arguments that were addressed to us carefully in order to come to a decision on the application before us. Under those circumstances we will take time to consider the matter, we will reserve our decision and once that is available which we will try to do as soon as the circumstances allow us given the other demands the resources of the Panel and our Committee and we will then notify the parties as to the outcome of the application. So in the circumstances the decision will be reserved. We extend our thanks to Mr Panday and Mr Sibeko and Mr Mapoma for your assistance and for all of the interested parties who have contributed towards this matter and towards trying to come to an understanding as to what was actually taking place at this particular stage at this particular place. It concludes the sitting of the Committee as well, it takes care of the roll that we had here. Before we adjourn the proceedings also extend our thanks to everybody who have assisted us in making it possible to have the hearing here for these past few days in Durban. There's always a lot of effort that goes with having a hearing of this nature taking place and running smoothly as this one has and as they in most instances do we are always aware of the effort that goes with that and we're always grateful for everybody who contributes, to our interpreters, the rest of our staff and the proprietors of this venue for making their venue available to us for use for these purposes and for any members of the public who have come along to listen to the proceedings, that is also an important aspect, part of the process from our point of view. We are always grateful for that. We will now adjourn the proceedings. HEARING ADJOURNS