amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-11-23 JOHANNESBURG 1 NEO IGNATIUS PHAHLANE AM7293/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53950&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99112325_jhb_991123jb.htm CHAIRPERSON What language would he speak? MR PADI Sotho. CHAIRPERSON Your full names? MR PHAHLANE I am Neo Ignatius Phahlane. INTERPRETER Excuse me Mr Chairman, may I ascertain if he can hear the translation? CHAIRPERSON Pardon? INTERPRETER I say may I ascertain whether he can hear the translation? CHAIRPERSON Can you hear the translation Mr Phahlane? MR PHAHLANE Yes, I do. NEO IGNATIUS PHAHLANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. Mr Padi? EXAMINATION BY MR PADI Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Phahlane is applying for amnesty for the incident which occurred on the 1st of October 1989 in which a Sharpville police station was attacked, pursuant to which attack a person was injured. MR MALAN That was Sgt Madibo? MR PADI That is correct. MR MALAN We have all the papers before us, we have the supplementary document which we have also read. I note from the papers that the Commander K.K. and one of his other colleagues, had already received indemnity in 1990 for this incident? Is there anything you want to add or will you just get him to confirm what is on paper? MR PADI I was hoping to get him to run us through his background and briefly relating to the incident if that would be okay with the Committee. MR MALAN What I want to suggest to you firstly, I assume you have discussed his application with him and that that is correct? MR PADI Yes, I did discuss it with him. MR MALAN And I further assume that the supplementary affidavit which he has signed, was done recently, probably yesterday or today? CHAIRPERSON Have you seen it? MR PADI Yes, I have the one by ... MR MALAN Oh, this is Madibo's statement. MR PADI Yes. MR MALAN Sorry, Madibo's statement, you have seen that? MR PADI Yes, that I have seen. MR MALAN That seems to be in accordance with the application, there is no dispute of fact? MR PADI Yes, there is no disputed facts. MR MALAN So everybody is aware of the factual of it, and I am simply suggesting if you want to dispense with any oral evidence, by simply confirming the correctness of his application, then we can leave it to questions to proceed from there, and if you have anything to add which is not in there, do that, but don't repeat, that is simply my suggestion. MR PADI Okay, thank you, thank you Honourable Committee Member. Can I get a directive again from the Honourable Committee Member, is it the suggestion that I run through the affidavit? JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Padi, are you in practice? MR PADI Yes, I am in practice. JUDGE DE JAGER It is a tip to you that what we've got before us, if we've got problems, we will ask you to answer on that. MR PADI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Let me probably take that cue, Mr Phahlane, you have read your application once more, have you? MR PHAHLANE I did not read it today, since I wrote it. CHAIRPERSON But you know the contents of your application? MR PHAHLANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that on the 3rd of the 11th month, you gave another affidavit under oath, this year? MR PHAHLANE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And have you read the versions of the police whom you attacked at the police station? MR PHAHLANE I did not read the police statements. CHAIRPERSON In effect they are confirming what you are saying in your application and they say they have forgiven you. Do you follow that? MR PHAHLANE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON In other words they are saying they are not opposing your application. MR PHAHLANE Yes, I do understand. CHAIRPERSON Do you confirm the contents of your amnesty application? MR PHAHLANE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, that is all we wanted you to do, Mr Padi. MR PADI I am indebted to you Honourable Chairperson. I just want to clarify some few issues, if that is okay. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it is your case. MR PADI Thank you Honourable Chair. Mr Phahlane, at the time of the commission of the incident in question, which political organisation did you belong to? MR MALAN Mr Padi, everything is in his application, he says that he was a member of the Vaal Youth Congress, he says he was Deputy President, he talks about the ANC, everything is in there, we have it before us. MR PADI Yes, what I am trying to get out of him is that when he committed this particular act, he was not doing it as a member of the Vaal Youth Congress, but as a member of MK. That is exactly what I am trying to extract from him at this stage. MR MALAN Please proceed. MR PADI Thank you. Mr Phahlane, were you a member of Umkhonto weSizwe at the time of the commission of this act? MR PHAHLANE Yes, I was a member of MK. MR PADI And you were committing this act as a member of the Umkhonto weSizwe? MR PHAHLANE Yes, I did that under the command of MK. MR PADI From your application it is stated that K.K. Smith was your commander, is that so? Do you confirm that? MR PHAHLANE That is correct. MR PADI At this stage, Honourable Committee Members I think the rest of the information is covered from this, I will follow up with re-examination if there is any, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Padi. Ms Thabethe, any cross-examination? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MS THABETHE Thank you. Mr Phahlane, were you armed when you went to the police station? MR PHAHLANE I was not armed. The only person who was armed was K.K. MS THABETHE Can you explain how it came about or why was the one policeman shot, Sgt Madibo? MR PHAHLANE Mr Madibo was shot because when we arrived there and they were holding them up, he was the person who resisted. He took up his arm, so we had no alternative, but we had to shoot at him, because the reason why we went there was just to disarm them, so that we could use them for MK purposes because they were supporting the apartheid regime together with the soldiers, so we believed that by disarming them, we would be able to decrease the strength of the apartheid government. Our aim was not to shoot him, it was only to disarm them and give those arms to the MK, so he showed resistance and he ended up being shot. MS THABETHE You see, why I am asking you this question is because in the statement written by Mr Madibo, or Sgt Madibo, he indicates that the person who was carrying the firearm, it is on paragraph 4 of the first page, he says the person who was with you began shooting at them, what is your response to that statement or that averment? MR PHAHLANE K.K. started shooting, but he was not shooting Mr Madibo, he shot another policeman who was running out of the police station, and that is when Mr Madibo took out his firearm, shooting at K.K. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON We will follow the same procedure, Mr Padi, that if you have any re-examination, let the Committee also deal with questions which they need clarification, and thereafter you would re-examine in total, knowing the views or things elicited by the Committee Members, is that okay with you? MR PADI That is okay. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Malan? MR MALAN I have no questions, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager? JUDGE DE JAGER No questions. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination? MR PADI I have no re-examination at this stage. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PADI WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is there anybody you are calling again in Mr Phahlane's case? MR PADI No, there won't be any other persons. CHAIRPERSON Is that your case? MR PADI That is my case. CHAIRPERSON Are you ready to address us? MR PADI Yes, I am ready to address you. CHAIRPERSON As always? MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair, maybe I can just add for the record, that I spoke to the victims who are present here, they have been present since yesterday, patiently waiting, so I just want to put that on record. But in my consultation with them, they did indicate that they are not opposing the application. CHAIRPERSON Nor do they want to say anything before argument? MS THABETHE No. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS THABETHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Padi. JUDGE DE JAGER And they are satisfied that they are telling the truth? MS THABETHE Maybe I should double check that Mr Chairman. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, because it corresponds with what they themselves say. MS THABETHE Sure. CHAIRPERSON That is the entering and the shooting and all that? MS THABETHE Yes, Mr Chair, when talking to them yesterday, they wanted to hear if he was going to come and say something differently, but it looks like nothing different has been said, so I don't think really they would want to say anything. CHAIRPERSON But in all fairness, because they took trouble to come here, we should afford you another opportunity just to speak to them. MS THABETHE Just to find out, sure. I will do that quickly, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. How long do you think it will take? MS THABETHE A matter of seconds, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON So we need not leave? MS THABETHE Certainly. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS THABETHE The statements are the same, contain the same. CHAIRPERSON Mr Padi, in view of the evidence before us, we are of the feeling that you cannot advance your argument any further, unless there are other things you want to highlight. We are not stopping you, but if there is something that you want to highlight, really we would ... MR PADI IN ARGUMENT The only things that I wanted to highlight, Honourable Chair, relates to the fact that this application complies with the requirements of the Act. All the requirements ... CHAIRPERSON We wouldn't have heard him if it didn't comply, if the application did not comply, we wouldn't have heard him. MR PADI Yes. Beyond that, that is nothing else to say, except that we request that amnesty be granted. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE Mr Chair, I have no opposition if amnesty is granted. CHAIRPERSON Mr Phahlane, tomorrow morning we will be able to deliver a written decision. We would have done it orally, but because its got to be processed and government gazetted, my oral decision would not go that far, but we promise that tomorrow, during the day, we will give that decision in that respect, and I want to thank the police for their cooperation that you are facilitating the process and you are appreciating very much. We are indebted to you because you have accepted the conflict of the past, you do not say because you are victims, therefore we do not forgive. We are very appreciative of that. In our decision, whichever way it goes, either granting or refusing, we shall refer you to the Reparation Committee, then they will contact you shortly, but I am expressing our hearts to you as a Committee. Thank you very much. This brings us to the end of the proceedings of the day. We shall be commencing with the other five applications tomorrow, the 24th of November, Wednesday. Those would be Ngubeni, Mahlangu, Madonsela and Nhlapo and Zondo. Thank you. Have a good evening. MS THABETHE As the Committee pleases. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you get in touch with Mr Moto of the prison in connection with Mr Ngubeni's application? He requested in paragraph 2, could you have a look at that? CHAIRPERSON We shall formally adjourn, this we will deal with in Chambers, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS