amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-11-29 PIETERMARITZBURG 1 XHAWULANI THULASIZWE NGCOBO AM 8026/97 MURDER OF NCAMAZILE ZIMU, SIDWILI ZIMU, SIMISO BHENGU, SHORTY NDULINI, SISHLE MKHIZE AND SIYANDA NGUBANE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53956&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9911291203_pmb_991129pm.htm CHAIRPERSON Sorry, if you can just calm down, please. Good afternoon everybody. I apologise for the late start in this matter, but it was for reasons beyond our control. What happened is the only matter that's been set down for today is the application of Mr Ngcobo and Mr Ngcobo only arrived here at quarter past twelve this afternoon. He had been brought from afar, from Waterval, and in addition to that Mr Snyman who is now going to be representing Mr Ngcobo, only came into the matter this morning and then he had to read the papers and consult, so it was impossible for us to start before lunch and I apologise for any inconvenience occasioned thereby. These proceedings are going to be simultaneously interpreted into Zulu and if you want to benefit from the interpretation you must be in possession of one of these devices. They are available from the sound technicians, so if you want to please follow the proceedings in Zulu, please get hold of one of these devices. They are available. Before we start, I'd just like to briefly introduce the Committee to you. On my right is Mr Wynand Malan, he's a Commissioner on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and also an Amnesty Committee member. Mr Malan is from Johannesburg. On my left is Adv Ntsiki Sandi, he comes from East London and he is a member of the Amnesty Committee and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Courts and I come from the Eastern Cape as well, from Umtata. I'd like at this stage for the legal representatives just to kindly place themselves on record. Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name is Chris Snyman. I'm a practising advocate here in Pietermaritzburg and I will be representing the applicant, Mr Ngcobo. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Snyman and we appreciate the fact that you have come in on late notice to assist us, thank you. MS JELAL Thank you Chairperson. I'm Ms Jelal. I represent the families of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Jelal. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. I'm Ms Thabile Thabethe, the Evidence Leader for the TRC. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabethe. Mr Snyman, are you in a position to start? MR SNYMAN Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are you going to be calling the applicant? MR SNYMAN Yes, I call the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. VIVIAN BHANI NGCOBO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN Thank you Mr Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR SNYMAN Mr Ngcobo, is it correct that you are now 30 years of age and that you were born on the 1st of January 1969? MR NGCOBO That is correct. MR SNYMAN And that you were born in the Table Mountain area. That you lived there all your live? MR NGCOBO That's correct. MR SNYMAN Now you made an affidavit that forms part of this application, is that correct? MR NGCOBO That is correct. MR SNYMAN Now before we commence the proceedings today, did you have time to go through this affidavit? MR NGCOBO Yes, I did. MR SNYMAN And do you adhere to the contents of the affidavit and confirm it? MR NGCOBO Yes, I do. MR SNYMAN Now initially you also applied ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Snyman, before you commence. Is this the affidavit that appears on page 24 of the bundle? MR SNYMAN That's correct, Mr Chairman. Now initially when you applied for amnesty, you included in your application the murder of two people during 1996, namely the murder of Ncamazile Zimu and Sidwili Zimu, is that correct? MR NGCOBO That's correct. MR SNYMAN For those two murders you were prosecuted in the High Court sitting in Pietermaritzburg during 1997. You were convicted and you received 25 years term of imprisonment, is that correct? MR NGCOBO Yes, that is correct. MR SNYMAN Do you understand that you cannot apply for amnesty in respect of those two murders because it happened after the official cut-off date? MR NGCOBO Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the cut-off date was the 10th of May 1994. MR SNYMAN Thank you Mr Chairperson. Now we will now start with your application starting with the first incident, namely the murder of Cebo Majola, which happened during 1990. Can you remember the exact date on which this took place? MR NGCOBO I do remember. MR SNYMAN When was that? MR NGCOBO It was on a Friday. MR SNYMAN Can you remember the exact date? MR NGCOBO No, I do not. MR SNYMAN Now, Cebo Majola, what was his political affiliation? MR NGCOBO He was an ANC person. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed Mr Snyman, what was your political affiliation, Mr Ngcobo at that time, during 1990, at the time ... MR NGCOBO IFP. MR SNYMAN Did you hold any position within the IFP at the time? MR NGCOBO Yes, I did. MR SNYMAN What was your position? MR NGCOBO I was the Youth Chairperson. MR SNYMAN Was that for the Table Mountain branch of the IFP? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR SNYMAN Now proceed and tell the Committee why was the decision made to kill Cebo Majola? MR NGCOBO Two men were killed in 1987. At that time there were different political organisations existing in the area. There were two organisations the ANC and the IFP in the Table Mountain area and at that time two men were killed. It was later discovered the people who had killed those men or one of those men had been camping at Mr Majola's home and also that he had supplied them with firearms to carry out the attacks. We discovered that he had donated firearms to them and that these people had been staying at his house. This we learned from Vukani Ngcobo, who used to receive information from them and pass it on to us. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, if you could just repeat that name. Was that Vukani you say, is that the name? I just didn't hear it correctly. MR NGCOBO Vukani Ngcobo. MR SNYMAN If I may just interrupt you Mr Ngcobo, what was your father's political affiliation? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, was Vukani his father? MR NGCOBO IFP. CHAIRPERSON Was Vukani related to you? MR NGCOBO We are related with Vukani. MR SNYMAN Proceed please. MR NGCOBO ...(indistinct) of this we met as the IFP. It was Mr Tswalitje Ntombela, Bernard Mkhize and Bongani Pethwa(?). MR SNYMAN Before you proceed, tell us what positions did they hold in the IFP. MR NGCOBO Tswalitje Ntombela was the Chairperson of the IFP as well as Mr Mkhize, Mr Mpetha as well, they held these positions in different branches. MR SNYMAN Proceed. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Ngcobo, I didn't get the interpretation coming through on my mike, all I heard was something about Mr Philip Powell. INTERPRETER I do beg your pardon, Chairperson, I was on the wrong channel. CHAIRPERSON Oh thanks, if you could then - perhaps Mr Ngcobo if you could just repeat what you have just said for the benefit of the translator. Thank you. MR NGCOBO After we had met and discussed Mr Majola's matter with the other chairpersons, it was decided that some action must be taken against him. At that time I was with Sikosipi Ndunga and Simpiwhe Ntombela and Khanyise Ndlovu. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat those three names. MR NGCOBO Sikosipi Ndunga, Khanyise Ndlovu and Simpiwhe Ntombela. MR SNYMAN Was Tswalitje related to Simpiwhe Ntombela? MR NGCOBO No, they were not related, but they belonged to one organisation with myself. MR SNYMAN What was then decided during that meeting? MR NGCOBO The meeting was held on a Wednesday. MR SNYMAN Was that the Wednesday before the Friday that Cebo Majola was killed? MR NGCOBO That is correct. MR SNYMAN Proceed please. MR NGCOBO At the time we decided that he should be killed and that was on instruction from our leaders. Mr Majola worked in Durban and he returned on weekends. Our plan was to await him on the road on a Friday when he returned from Durban and we would take him when he alighted from the bus. MR SNYMAN Proceed please. MR NGCOBO There were many firearms that were available to us at the time. We had a shotgun, an AK47, a 9mm pistol and a .303. MR SNYMAN Which firearm did you use? MR NGCOBO I used the shotgun. MR SNYMAN Proceed. Tell us what happened. MR NGCOBO Khanyise carried a 9mm pistol, Simpiwhe carried the AK47. We then went to wait for the bus along the road. MR MALAN Who carried the .303? MR NGCOBO It was Sikosipi Ndunga. MR SNYMAN Proceed please. MR NGCOBO We then went to lie in wait. He alighted from the bus and proceeded along the road and as he approached nearer, I fired one shot at him which hit him and he was killed instantly. CHAIRPERSON Was this after dark Mr Ngcobo? Approximately what time? MR NGCOBO It was at night. MR SNYMAN What time approximately? MR NGCOBO If I'm not mistaken it was between half past eight and nine. MR SNYMAN Do you know where Mr Cebo Majola resided, which area? MR NGCOBO Yes, I did. MR SNYMAN Tell us about that. MR NGCOBO We were neighbours and his home was behind a school and mine was just in front of the school, so it would be just the school separating our houses. MR SNYMAN Were you ever arrested for this murder? MR NGCOBO No, I was not. MR SNYMAN And any of the other perpetrators, were any of them arrested? MR NGCOBO No, they were not. MR SNYMAN My information is Mr Ngcobo, that some of the family members or relatives of Cebo Majola are present here at the hearing today. Is there anything that you want to convey to them? MR NGCOBO Yes, that is correct. MR SNYMAN Please proceed. MR NGCOBO I wish to express my apologies to the Majola family and to the residents of the community. It was not something that I had intended doing, but it was forced upon me by the circumstances. Moreover there was no evidence pointing in our direction and we were never prosecuted for this crime. I just want to clear it up with the community and explain, come out and explain that I did that crime and express my sincere apologies to them. MR SNYMAN Just before you proceed with the other matters, during this time 1990, what was the situation like in the Table Mountain area? MR NGCOBO The situation was very bad because people were killed everyday. MR SNYMAN Were people killed during political violence? MR NGCOBO That is correct. MR SNYMAN And who were the parties fighting? MR NGCOBO The ANC and the IFP. MR SNYMAN Were there people being killed on both sides, the ANC side and IFP side? MR NGCOBO They were killed on both sides. MR SNYMAN Mr Ngcobo, we now move on to the following incident, that's the incident where Simiso Bhengu was killed, also during 1992. Apart from the date 1992, do you remember the exact date on which this happened, with reference to the day and the month? MR NGCOBO I cannot recall the date, just the day. MR SNYMAN And what day was that? MR NGCOBO It was on a Friday. MR SNYMAN What was Simiso Bhengu's political affiliation? MR NGCOBO He was an ANC member. MR SNYMAN Did he hold any position in the ANC? MR NGCOBO I do not have knowledge with regards to that. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Ngcobo, when you say he was an ANC member, are you meaning that he was a member because you knew he was a member, card-carrying member, or are you saying that he may have been an ANC supporter, without actually being an actual card-carrying member? MR NGCOBO I do not know whether he was a card-carrying member of the ANC but he did support the ANC. ADV SANDI Just explain that for me. Why do you say he was supporting ANC? MR NGCOBO During the political turmoil there was a certain person who was also my relative who resided at ...(indistinct) district. MR SNYMAN Yes, and what about that? MR NGCOBO I had a girlfriend Bongi in that area and he and some other people went to her and alleged that I had sent them to fetch her. ADV SANDI Can you repeat this, I can't follow you? What happened? MR NGCOBO They went to Bongi Zuma who was my girlfriend and they informed her that I had instructed them to fetch here. It was Musi Ngcobo, Simiso Bhengu and Dabo. ADV SANDI Yes, but was it true that you had sent them to come and fetch her? MR NGCOBO No, it was not true. MR SNYMAN These people you are referring to, were they ANC members, or supporters, or IFP supporters? MR NGCOBO They were ANC supporters. MR SNYMAN Proceed please. MR NGCOBO Bongi was aware of the problems between the ANC and IFP and she knew these people, that they were ANC supporters and did not agree to going with them, so she stayed inside the house until they left. ADV SANDI Is that the reason you concluded that he was supporting ANC? MR NGCOBO I'm still continuing to explain. They left at that time, but on a later date when I was with another person, these same people shot at us. ADV SANDI Who are these people? MR NGCOBO It was Simiso and Musi Ngcobo. MR SNYMAN Proceed, please. MR NGCOBO I survived the attack and we managed to reach our home and on arrival we fetched our firearms, but when we went back to that spot, they had already left, so we could not get them. MR SNYMAN Yes. MR NGCOBO On another occasion, it was on a Monday, I was in a vehicle driven by Simpiwhe and Khanyise was also with us and as we approached a corner, they also shot at us. AUDIENCE Excuse me, we can't hear anything. The applicant is speaking too soft, we can't hear. He must pick up his voice please. CHAIRPERSON Yes, can you please speak louder Mr Ngcobo and also perhaps it would assist if he got one of these earphones, you can hear better, but please speak louder Mr Ngcobo. MR NGCOBO It was at night and we were travelling in a car. The car was being driven by Simpiwhe and on our way, we were shot at. Because it was dark, we could not identify who was shooting at us but fortunately we were not injured. We later received information from Vukani Ngcobo that Musi Ngcobo and Thoithoivi(?) Ngcobo and Simiso Bhengu and others were responsible for that attack on us in the vehicle. ADV SANDI Where did you get this information that Simiso and others were the one who were shooting at you? MR NGCOBO We learned of it from Vukani Ngcobo. MR MALAN Where did Vukani get the information from? MR NGCOBO He was very close to them so he used to get to know of everything that they did and whatever they planned and he would relay this information to us. MR MALAN Was he ANC? MR NGCOBO That is correct. MR MALAN And as an ANC member he gives IFP members information, that's what you're saying? MR NGCOBO Yes. We did not have a problem with Vukani because we were related. MR SNYMAN What was your relationship to Vukani? MR NGCOBO We both share the same surname. MR MALAN That's not the question. The question was, what was your relationship? Was he your brother? MR NGCOBO He is not my brother, but is one of the family. MR MALAN How is he one of the family? MR NGCOBO He is a son to my father's brother and his father and my father were brothers. MR SNYMAN Mr Ngcobo, when was the decision to kill Simiso Bhengu finally made? MR NGCOBO If I recall correctly, it was on a Sunday when we held a meeting at Mr Tswalitje Ntombela's home. It was myself, Khanyise, Simpiwhe and Mr Tswalitje Ntombela, Bongani Mpetha and Mapu Kuzhlahla. MR SNYMAN What was the decision? MR NGCOBO At that meeting, Mr Ntombela and Mr Mpetha as well as Mr Mkhize issued an instruction that he should be killed because they had also launched attacks on us. MR MALAN Did you say Vukani was present at that meeting? MR NGCOBO No, he was not present. MR MALAN So did you merely tell Mr Mkhize and Mr Mpetha and Mr Ntombela that Vukani told you that he was involved and they, on the basis of second-hand information, they instructed the killing of Mr Bhengu? MR NGCOBO Yes, we informed them of that and they issued out that decision. ADV SANDI Did you - sorry just explain this. Did you take any steps to try and verify that the information Vukani was given, was true? MR NGCOBO Yes, we did. ADV SANDI What steps were those? Can you tell us? MR NGCOBO Vukani would normally arrive at night and we would question him extensively because some times he would tell us or give us information when he was not sober but we would wait for another occasion when he would be sober and we would still question him on the same information and he would repeat it. ADV SANDI Are you saying there were times when he would give you information about the deceased and other people at a time when he was drunk? MR NGCOBO Sometimes he would be drunk but we would wait and give him an opportunity for him to give us information or to repeat or deny the information when he was sober. MR MALAN Sorry, I think my colleague's question was, did you take steps to verify it? So you had only Vukani's word for it, sometimes when he was drunk, sometimes when he was sober, but you didn't verify it from any other source? MR NGCOBO No, we did not take any other steps. MR MALAN Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN During this meeting, was a decision made exactly how Mr Bhengu had to be killed? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR SNYMAN Tell us about that. MR NGCOBO We decided that he should be killed and most of the firearms were kept at my home. It was then decided that we would go fetch these firearms and lie in wait for him on the bus route. ADV SANDI Where did you get these firearms from? Can you try and speak up when you answer this question please, so that we can hear you. I want to hear your evidence even when you say it in Zulu. Try and speak up. MR NGCOBO We received them Tswalitje Ntombela and Bernard Mkhize and they received these from Mr Philip Powell who used to deliver them. MR MALAN How did you know that? MR NGCOBO We knew this because we would have a meeting at which it would be discussed that he would make a delivery of those firearms and indeed he will arrive to deliver them. MR SNYMAN Proceed. MR NGCOBO They then came to my home. Khanyise Ndlovu and Simpiwhe Ntombela and Sikosipi Ndunga. We remained at home until late afternoon after which we went to the bus stop where he would alight. The bus arrived and he then came running to get onto that same bus. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, how did you know that he was going to catch a bus? MR NGCOBO As a resident of the area, we knew that on weekends he usually went to his in-laws. MR SNYMAN Yes, what happened then? MR NGCOBO When the bus was still at the bus stop, we had hidden ourselves close by and as the bus was about to leave, he started getting on to the bus and as he was just on the steps, Simpiwhe shot him on the leg. MR SNYMAN Did you fire any shots? MR NGCOBO Yes, I did. MR SNYMAN Tell us about that. MR NGCOBO I will start by explaining the type of firearms we had. Khanyise had a shotgun, Simpiwhe carried the 9mm and I had the AK47 and Sikosipi carried the .303. As he climbed the steps, he was shot at by Simpiwhe on the leg. He then fell onto the ground and tried to run after the bus. MR SNYMAN Was he only shot in the leg as far as you can remember? MR NGCOBO No, that was the first bullet that hit him. MR SNYMAN Proceed please. MR NGCOBO He tried running, following the bus and he was screaming at the time and he was screaming that Ndaba Bahiso who was my brother, was killing him. We followed him, shooting at him and eventually he fell onto the side of the road and died. MR SNYMAN How many times was he wounded? MR NGCOBO I cannot recall, but he was shot at several times. MR SNYMAN Now apart from Simpiwhe Ntombela who shot him with a 9mm pistol, who else fired shots at him? MR NGCOBO It was myself and Simpiwhe who shot at him, the other two did not fire any shots. MR SNYMAN Do you know whether or not you struck him? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR SNYMAN Do you know where in his body did you strike him? MR NGCOBO If I'm not mistaken, he sustained injuries on the chest, on the back and on the head. MR SNYMAN The question that I asked you was, do you know where on his body did you strike him? MR NGCOBO Yes, I do have such knowledge. MR SNYMAN Can you tell us about that please. MR NGCOBO I was shooting him at the back as he was running and after he fell, I also shot him on the head. MR SNYMAN Did Mr Bhengu die there at the scene? MR NGCOBO Yes, he did. CHAIRPERSON After you shot him and when he was on the ground, did you search his body at all? Were you looking for firearms or anything of that nature? MR NGCOBO No, we didn't go closer. MR SNYMAN Were you, or any of your co-conspirators arrested for the murder of Simiso Bhengu? MR NGCOBO Yes, we were arrested but because they didn't get hold of the weapons we used in killing him, the only weapons they got were home-made, then the case was withdrawn. MR SNYMAN Mr Ngcobo, my information is that some of the relatives and family of Simiso Bhengu might be present here in this hall today. Is there anything that you would like to convey to them? MR NGCOBO Yes, it is so. MR SNYMAN Please proceed. MR NGCOBO I would like to apologise to the community at large and also to the Bhengu family and I am very, very sorry about what I did. It wasn't may aim and it was also not my intention but it was because of the situation, the political situation in the area, that's why I found myself in that difficulty and I would like to apologise sincerely. MR SNYMAN The next incident in respect of which you apply for amnesty, is the murder of Shorty Nduleni, Bhekinzone Nzuza and a certain Shelembe boy and Manglethu Ngcobo. Can you remember the exact day and month during 1992 when this happened? MR NGCOBO If I remember very well, I think it was on a Sunday. MR SNYMAN Are you not able to remember the exact date and month on which this happened? MR NGCOBO No, I won't be able to. MR SNYMAN What was the political affiliation of these people, that's Shorty Nduleni, Bhekinzone Nzuza, the Shelembe boy and Manglethu Ngcobo? MR NGCOBO ANC. MR SNYMAN Why do you say that? MR NGCOBO Because we were in continuous conflict between the ANC and the IFP and we launched various attacks on each other. ADV SANDI Did they participate in the actual fight between the ANC and the IFP? MR NGCOBO I wouldn't say that participated but because we were in continuous fights with the ANC, it happened that on the day when we went to Mr Mlambo's house to attack, when we were on our way we met them because we were in their area and we knew that they were going to identify us since they knew us. We realised then and there that we couldn't continue with our way, therefore Simpiwhe started shooting as we were on the road. ADV SANDI Is that to say that he shot them because you were afraid that they would identify you as people who had attacked the house of who did you say, Mr Mlambo? MR NGCOBO Yes, it is so. ADV SANDI And is there any other reason why you attacked them? MR NGCOBO Another reason, it is because we were in continuous fights with them. For instance on one occasion we were travelling by car and we were attacked there and we got the information as to who attacked us. ADV SANDI Were they some of the people who were said to have attacked you? MR NGCOBO Not all of them, but Nduleni was present. MR SNYMAN Were you armed during this occasion? MR NGCOBO Yes, I was. MR SNYMAN What type of firearm did you have with you? MR NGCOBO AK47. MR SNYMAN Did you fire any shots? MR NGCOBO No, I didn't. MR SNYMAN You mentioned that Simpiwhe Ntombela fired shots, did any other person in your company fire shots, apart from him? MR NGCOBO He was the only one. CHAIRPERSON What was Simpiwhe armed with at the time that he did the shooting? MR NGCOBO Shotgun. CHAIRPERSON Can you just give us some idea, Mr Ngcobo, how many shots did he fire? How far away was he from the people who he fired at? MR NGCOBO I wouldn't be able to estimate the distance, but I think he didn't shoot more than six times. MR MALAN And he killed four people with six shots, with a shotgun? MR NGCOBO If I remember, I think the four were in one area and we only met Mr Ngcobo on our way and one bullet was not used to shoot at anyone, he just shot at the air because he suspected that someone was hiding behind a certain house there. MR MALAN I'm not sure that I now understand you. These four victims, the people that were killed, Mr Nduleni, Mr Nzuza, and then Shelembe and Manglethu Ngcobo, they were the four people that you are giving evidence about now, is that correct? MR NGCOBO If I remember very well I think it is so. MR MALAN Weren't they together, the four of them? That's how I understood your evidence. MR NGCOBO Manglethu was not with them. MR MALAN ; Sorry, who was not with them. CHAIRPERSON Manglethu. MR MALAN Manglethu Ngcobo? Okay, the other three were together. MR MALAN Now just tell us about the shooting again. MR NGCOBO Yes, the other three were together and Mr Manglethu was walking towards his home. MR MALAN Now, you said that Simpiwhe was the person who fired, who shot at them? MR NGCOBO Yes, that's correct. MR MALAN He shot first at the three and then later he shot at Manglethu. MR NGCOBO Yes, he shot all of them. MR MALAN How many shots did he fire at the first three victims? MR NGCOBO I didn't count, but I don't think it was more than six. MR MALAN And then at Manglethu? MR NGCOBO Only one. MR MALAN At what distance was this? MR NGCOBO We were in the middle of the road and he was walking at the side of the road, that's when he shot at him. MR MALAN And why was he shot? MR NGCOBO We were on our way back because we decided not to proceed with our way to the Mlambo family and because there were soldiers, as we were walking back and we had already received information or instruction that if we were to meet an ANC member at night, we were supposed to kill that person if he was on our way or if he were to identify us otherwise. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I've just got a difficulty about this question of being identified. Just correct me if I'm wrong. You say that you were walking, you were going to the Mlambo's house to attack it. You then decided before you got there to change your mind because there were plenty of soldiers and police in the are, so you didn't attack the Mlambo's house, you turned around and were walking back home. Why worry about being identified if you hadn't committed any crime or if you weren't going to commit any crime that night, why worry about people identifying you? MR NGCOBO As we were on our way to the Mlambo, it wasn't easy for us to see as to whom we were meeting. We thought that if we were to pass them, they might shoot at us because we had already received information that if we were to meet someone who was our opponent then we should kill first. MR MALAN Just a last question from my side on this issue. Is it not so that Manglethu was already a person of 70 years, he was an old man, a very old man? MR NGCOBO Yes, he was. MR MALAN Do you have any idea where he was from when you saw him? MR NGCOBO No, we didn't. MR MALAN Was he ANC? MR NGCOBO Yes, he was. MR MALAN How do you know that? MR NGCOBO He was one of the people who were fighting with us, the ANC and also he had issued guns to the ANC to attack us. MR MALAN But how did you know that? MR NGCOBO We got this information because when these two men were killed, we also received information that he had issued guns to attack IFP members. CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about the same two men that were killed in 1987? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR MALAN And he was also related to you? Manglethu? MR NGCOBO Yes, he was my father. MR MALAN How was he your father? MR NGCOBO He wasn't my blood father but he was my father's brother. MR MALAN Was your father ANC? MR NGCOBO IFP. MR MALAN How did you know that Manglethu was ANC? MR NGCOBO We received information that he had issued weapons to the ANC. MR MALAN And you got that information also from Bongani? MR NGCOBO No, from Kwitalane Gcgabashe. MR MALAN Did you verify this? MR NGCOBO No, it wasn't easy for one to verify because the community had already divided into two therefore to go to the ANC and look for this information, it was difficult. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Snyman. If you could just clear this up for me Mr Ngcobo. Initially you said that these four people, that is Shorty Nduleni, Bhekinzone Nzuza, Shelembe boy and Manglethu Ngcobo were killed because they were ANC people who might identify you. Now you're saying to us that Manglethu was killed because you had info that he used to supply firearms to the ANC and in particular he supplied the people who killed two of your supporters, your party supporters in 1987. Now what is the situation? Did you kill him because you came across him by chance that night when you killed him, or was it because you went looking for him because of this information that you had and you sought him out and then killed him? MR NGCOBO No, we didn't plan to kill him, but since he was an ANC member and we were fighting with ANC, we saw it a need there that he should be killed, but we didn't plan it. MR MALAN Sorry, just a last question. Did he and his family know you to be IFP and did they see themselves as ANC? Did he know you as his enemy? MR NGCOBO I will say yes, because there was a division because of the two political organisations. MR MALAN But weren't you living in that community? Weren't you living amongst them and visiting there? MR NGCOBO At that time we had already relocated and also where we moved, we didn't stay too long. We had to move again, but my other family was at ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN So do we understand you correctly then that it wasn't planned beforehand to kill any of these four people, but it was a coincidence that you met them along the road? MR NGCOBO I don't understand. MR SNYMAN Do I understand your evidence correctly that it wasn't planned beforehand to kill any of these four people? MR NGCOBO No, it was planned because we had already received instructions from our superiors that if we were to meet an ANC person in the IFP area, we were supposed to shoot and kill that person because same thing was happening to us. ADV SANDI Who were your superiors who said this that you must shoot any ANC person you come across in the street, who were those people? MR NGCOBO Tswalitje, Bernard and Bongani. MR SNYMAN Were they from the Table Mountain branch of the IFP? MR NGCOBO Yes, they are staying there. MR SNYMAN Now when you saw these people, the four deceased in this matter, how did you know starting with Shorty Nduleni, Bhekinzone Nzuza and the Shelembe boy, how did you know for certain that they were ANC people or supporters or members? MR NGCOBO Because of the situation it was easy for us to know because the situation was so that ANC supporters and members, they only walk in certain areas and there were no going areas for IFP and also for ANC, therefore it was easy for ANC person to identify an IFP person and so it was easy for IFP to identify ANC person. MR SNYMAN Did you have any doubt that these three people, Shorty Nduleni, Bhekinzone Nzuza and the Shelembe boy, were ANC people at the time? MR NGCOBO No I was certain at that time. MR SNYMAN Also on this case, Mr Ngcobo, I have information that some of the relations and close family of the four deceased might be here today at the hearing. Is there anything that you would like to convey to them? MR NGCOBO Yes, there is. MR SNYMAN Please proceed. MR NGCOBO I would like to apologise to the community of eNkanyesene and the relatives and the families of the deceased. I would like to let the community know that what happened was not my intention and I don't know how it started and people never came forward to tell the community as to who was responsible. I came here today and I'm telling the community and I would like to express my sincere apologies and I still feel great remorse about what happened. MR SNYMAN I gained the impression from your evidence that at the time, one could be killed for simply being a member or supporter of either the IFP or the ANC without doing anything, is that correct? MR NGCOBO Yes, we were attacking each other. MR SNYMAN The next incident is the murder of Sishle Mkhize that happened during 1992. Can you recall this incident? MR NGCOBO Yes, I do. MR SNYMAN Did you know Sishle Mkhize? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR SNYMAN How did you know him? CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Snyman. Perhaps before you go on, is it also the death of Mr Siyanda Ngubane? MR SNYMAN That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So its the deaths of Sishle Mkhize and Siyanda Ngubane? Sorry. Thank you. MR SNYMAN Now how did you know Sishle Mkhize? MR NGCOBO I knew him as a resident in our area and also he was a member of the ANC. MR SNYMAN Was he an office bearer of the ANC? MR NGCOBO No, I only know that he was a supporter of the ANC. MR SNYMAN Did you know Siyanda Ngubane? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR SNYMAN How did you know him? MR NGCOBO I also know Siyanda as a resident of the area and also he was one of the people who used to participate in the fights in the area. CHAIRPERSON What, as far as you're concerned, what was his political affiliation? That's Siyanda Ngubane. MR NGCOBO I didn't know that he was a member or a supporter of the ANC, but I only did detect, or I drew this from the fact that he participated on the attack in my home, when my home was burned down. ADV SANDI When was your home burned down? MR NGCOBO I don't remember the day. CHAIRPERSON Was it in 1992 or before then? MR NGCOBO I think it can be between 1991 and 1992. ADV SANDI Were you there? Were you at home on the day your home was burned down? MR NGCOBO Yes, I was. ADV SANDI What time of the day was it? MR NGCOBO At night. ADV SANDI Did you see this person you say took part when your home was attacked? MR NGCOBO No, I didn't see him. ADV SANDI Why do you say then he took part? MR NGCOBO Vukani told me that he was also present together with the other attackers. ADV SANDI In what state was he, Vukani, when he told you that this gentleman was present amongst the attackers? Was he drunk? Was he sober? In what sort of state was he? MR NGCOBO On that day he was sober. ADV SANDI Did you get any other information to verify that? MR NGCOBO Yes, I tried and also I mentioned this to the Chairperson of the IFP and they came to see Vukani about this matter and he insisted that he was telling the truth, that he was present. ADV SANDI Did the Chairperson tell you why he thought Vukani was telling the truth to say that this man was present when your house was attacked? MR NGCOBO No, he didn't tell me but Vukani was reliable. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN Mr Ngcobo, you now told us the reason why Siyanda Ngubane was shot at an killed. What was the reason that Sishle Mkhize was killed? MR NGCOBO On one occasion Bongi was present, Bongi Zuma. They arrived at home and they knocked at the door and Bongi opened the door for them and she was told that they had been sent by me, but then she didn't know that it wasn't so and they took her. On the way she asked them why she was being taken and where she was being taken and they were armed and they were hitting her with those weapons. She sustained injuries next to her eye. MR SNYMAN Who is Bongi? MR NGCOBO My girlfriend, the one I've mentioned before. MR SNYMAN Did she say anything about Sishle Mkhize? MR NGCOBO Yes, she did. MR SNYMAN What did she say? MR NGCOBO She was admitted in hospital after those injuries and when she was discharged she came back home and explained and then she said to me she didn't know the attackers but she can identify them and she only realised that these people were not sent by myself when they were talking on the way. They tied her hands with a chain, they wanted to kill her but she got away. MR SNYMAN But did she say anything about Sishle Mkhize, or not? MR NGCOBO Yes, she did say something. MR SNYMAN What did she say about him? MR NGCOBO She said one of them she can easily identify him and she also explained as to what clothes he was wearing. He was wearing takkies and a short pants and a cream-white T-shirt. CHAIRPERSON Did she identify him to you? Did she ever point him out to you? MR NGCOBO As a person I knew who was also a resident in our area, when she described him I knew who she was referring to and also the clothes helped me because I saw him the previous day. MR SNYMAN But did she at any time physically point him out to you and identify him and said to you: "That is him, that is the person who participated in the attack on me"? MR NGCOBO One day she was at home. She saw Sishle walking on the road and she pointed at him that that's the person. MR MALAN Did she point him to you, or to whom did she point him? MR NGCOBO To me. MR MALAN Now why did you not tell us that from the beginning? Why do you tell us the story that she couldn't recognise him, but she could tell you about the clothes and she could describe him and only after being pressed, you tell us she pointed him out to you? Did she really point him out to you? MR NGCOBO Yes, she did. MR MALAN When did this happen? When did she point him out to you? MR NGCOBO The following day or a day after she had been discharged from hospital. MR MALAN So that's basically the same day or a day after she reported to you? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR MALAN Now when she pointed him, why did you not confront him straight away? MR NGCOBO It wasn't easy. MR MALAN Why did you not report him to the police? MR NGCOBO We did report the matter to the police but they didn't take any steps. MR MALAN Did you tell the police that it was Sishle Mkhize? MR NGCOBO Yes, I did. MR MALAN Now why do we have to draw this out of you? Why did not come forward from the beginning and tell us this straight away? Do you have any explanation? MR NGCOBO Yes, I do. MR MALAN Did you tell your lawyer that you reported him to the police? Did you tell Mr Snyman? MR NGCOBO No, because of the time, we couldn't get to that, but we tried to talk about most important things. MR MALAN Thank you Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN Mr Ngcobo before you proceed, this affidavit that you made in your application for amnesty, the four incidents that you referred to now so far, were you assisted by a legal representative when you made that affidavit or not? MR NGCOBO You mean when I was making my application? MR SNYMAN When you made your application and when you deposed to the affidavit that was read out to you shortly before we commenced the proceedings today. MR NGCOBO Yes, there was a legal rep. MR SNYMAN Now according to the information at our disposal Siyanda Ngubane and Sishle Mkhize were killed the same time. Was this planned beforehand or not? MR NGCOBO No, they were not killed same time. MR SNYMAN Was it on the same day? MR NGCOBO No, not the same day. CHAIRPERSON So then, Mr Ngcobo, is this affidavit of yours incorrect because I'll read from page 24, this is what it says "Again in 1992 I shot Sishle Mkhize with an AK47 rifle and Siyanda Ngubane, both at the same time. I shot them in the eNkanyesene area." MR NGCOBO No, this is a mistake. Siyanda was killed on another day and Sishle Mkhize as well. It wasn't the same day and it wasn't the same time. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN Thank you Mr Chairperson. Now which incident happened first? Was it the murder of Sishle Mkhize or the one of Siyanda Ngubane? MR NGCOBO I am not certain which one. MR SNYMAN Now let's start with the killing of Sishle Mkhize. Tell us what happened on that day and how he was killed. MR NGCOBO On that day, it was myself and a chairperson, Ntombela and Bongani Mtetwa. We met and I told them about the problem about the incident, Bongi's incident and they went to see Bongi and Bongi told them about the incident and she also mentioned that she had identified a person who was one of the attackers and I also testified that she told me so before and then the chairperson and the others said we should take steps to revenge this incident. MR SNYMAN I want you to mention the names of the people who instructed you to take steps, to take revenge. MR NGCOBO It was Bernard Mkhize, Bongani Mpetha, Tswalitje Ntombela, Sabelo Gcgabashe from Maqonquo and Johnny Ngcobo. MR SNYMAN Were these people who issued this instruction to you holding positions within the IFP or not? MR NGCOBO They do. MR SNYMAN What type of positions do they hold? MR NGCOBO Bernard Mkhize is the chairperson together with Bongani Mpetha, in other words Bongani's deputy and Sabelo is also a chairperson in another branch and Johnny also a Chairperson, or rather he was just a member and also an Induna in the area. MR SNYMAN Did they mention what type of revenge must be taken against Sishle Mkhize? MR NGCOBO Yes, they did. MR SNYMAN What did they say? MR NGCOBO They said since we had done our disposal then we should arm ourselves then go and revenge. MR SNYMAN What did you understand by that? MR NGCOBO Since also I didn't like what they did, it also came to my mind that we should kill them. MR SNYMAN Now on the day that Sishle Mkhize was killed, were you on your own or were you accompanied by others? I have to repeat that. On the day that Sishle Mkhize was killed, were you on your own or were you accompanied by others? MR NGCOBO I was with Khanyise Simpiwhe and Mabongu and Sikosipi. MR SNYMAN Tell us what happened on that day. MR NGCOBO We were at Ntombela's family because we had already stayed there. Mabongu arrived together with Khanyise and Khanyise also was staying there. We met. It was at night. We took the firearms. On that day I took an AK47, Simpiwhe took a shotgun. Khanyise also took a shotgun. Sikosipi took a 9mm. We were going towards eNkanyesene because Sishle usually used that route because the truck will drop him there. We waited for him there and he appeared. MR SNYMAN Did Mabongu carry a firearm that evening? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR SNYMAN What type of firearm? MR NGCOBO Mabongu had a 9mm. MR SNYMAN Now tell us what happened when Sishle Mkhize arrived. MR NGCOBO As we were waiting for him there, he came running. We could hear him as he was coming running and we saw that it was him and I shot at him. The others didn't shoot. MR SNYMAN How far was he from you when you fired the shots at him, or when you fired at him? MR NGCOBO I will just estimate that it is from where I'm sitting to the corner of this hall. CHAIRPERSON This hall's got four corners, which corner? MR NGCOBO It is next to the door, just before you arrive to the stairs. CHAIRPERSON Would you agree about 30 paces, 25,30 paces? MR SNYMAN I would agree to that Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON About 30 paces. MR SNYMAN Now at the time when you fired the shot at Sishle, was he approaching you or was he running away from you? MR NGCOBO Approaching to our direction. We didn't shoot at that time. We started shooting immediately after he passed where we were hiding ourselves. MR SNYMAN Was he shot from the back or from the front? MR NGCOBO On his leg from the back. MR SNYMAN Was he aware of your presence or not? MR NGCOBO I think he didn't know because he didn't see us. MR SNYMAN What time of the day or night was this? MR NGCOBO It was in winter. I think it was at about 7 o'clock, but it was too dark because it was in winter. ADV SANDI Were you not afraid that he could also return fire on you? MR NGCOBO Even though we were afraid, but since we were fighting, we were prepared to take that risk. ADV SANDI Were you expecting him to be armed, or what? MR NGCOBO Since we had decided on an ambush, we didn't think that he was armed. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ngcobo can you describe to us in a nutshell, what was your motive for killing Sishle Mkhize? MR NGCOBO Because they had tried to abduct Bongi and they also tried to kill her, who was my girlfriend. ADV SANDI Did your girlfriend belong to any political party or organisation? MR NGCOBO Yes, it is so. ADV SANDI Which one was that? MR NGCOBO IFP. MR SNYMAN Now it is also my information that some of the family members ...(intervention) MR MALAN Just before you get there, can you please tell me how did Bongi manage to escape? MR NGCOBO What helped her was because the chain wasn't too tight on her hands and she tried to loosen the chain and she got away and ran home. MR MALAN While she was being kept in their presence, they were holding her and she was chained and she got the chain off and she ran away from them and got home? Is that how I am to understand you? MR NGCOBO No, they were not present. After they had tied her hands, they left her there, they were going to come back but then she was no longer there, she had run away. MR MALAN Where did they leave her? MR NGCOBO When she explained she said it was in a bush area. MR MALAN They didn't tie her to anything, they just tied her hands and left her in the bush, is that correct? Is that what you're saying? MR NGCOBO Yes, only tied her hands. MR MALAN Not her feet? MR NGCOBO No, not her feet. CHAIRPERSON Well then why do you say she escaped? I mean if somebody is tied with just their hands and they can walk wherever they want to go and left in the bush alone, they're not detaining that person, they must have expected her to have gone away, don't you agree? If they didn't want her to escape, they would have tied her to a tree or a pole or something. MR NGCOBO I wouldn't be certain there because what I'm telling this Committee is what she told me and also when they left here there, they just pointed to a nearby house that they were going there and they were coming back soon. MR MALAN Sorry, just again before you proceed. Did you take her to the police to report it? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR MALAN When she reported to the police, did she tell the same story to the police? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR MALAN Did they not ask her about how she was tied and left in the bush? MR NGCOBO She explained as I'm explaining here today. MR MALAN Thank you Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN Now Mr Ngcobo, we've now dealt with the killing of Sishle Mkhize, I'm also informed that some of the family members and acquaintances and close relatives of Mr Mkhize might be here at the hearing today. Is there anything that you would like to convey to them? MR NGCOBO Yes, there is. MR SNYMAN Please do so. MR NGCOBO I would once again ask for forgiveness from the family and the relatives and also the community at large and I would like to say what happened wasn't my intention but it was because of the situation, the circumstances forced me to participate in those incidents and I express my sincere apologies to the families and also request forgiveness from them. MR SNYMAN You are referring to circumstances that forced you to do this, what circumstances are you referring to? MR NGCOBO Political situation. MR SNYMAN Now you're also applying for amnesty in the killing of Siyanda Ngubane who as you told us before took part when your house was attacked and burned down. Do you remember what happened at the time when Siyanda Ngubane was killed? MR NGCOBO Yes, I can. MR SNYMAN Tell us about that. MR NGCOBO This happened after he took part in attacks and including the attack on my house. We met with our leaders. Since there was a traditional function in Dengithi family, the leaders said to us it was highly likely that he will attend to that ceremony or that function therefore this could be a chance for us to go and attack him. MR SNYMAN On the day that Siyanda and Ngubane were attacked, were you on your own or were you accompanied by others and if so, who were they? MR NGCOBO On that day, I was with Simpiwhe, Khanyise, Mabongu and Sikosipi. MR SNYMAN Were you armed? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR SNYMAN With what? MR NGCOBO I was armed with an AK47, Khanyise with a shotgun, Khanyise, my pardon, with 9mm and Mabongu and Sikosipi. MR SNYMAN Proceed and tell us what happened during the attack. MR NGCOBO We were in that function, we were not inside the yard, we were outside that house's yard. We were together with others who were going to go inside and do surveillance for us as to whether he was present or not. Blues Shezi and another guy stayed there and they were supposed to look and see if he was present and if he was they were supposed to come back and report to us. They did that and they came to us and they told us that he had just arrived and then we went there. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Continue. MR NGCOBO When we arrived there, we just stopped at the door. We waited for him to come out from the door. He was together with Mondli and Siyanda. We waited outside the rondavel or the hut. MR SNYMAN Continue. MR NGCOBO Since it wasn't too dark because there was a huge fire outside, we saw him easily as they were approaching towards us. As they were approaching, I started firing at them. MR SNYMAN Proceed. MR NGCOBO I shot at Siyanda. Mondli I couldn't shoot at him because he ran away. We decided to disappear there because we didn't want other people to identify us to counter attack. ADV SANDI And what was Mondli? Did he belong to any organisation? MR NGCOBO I wouldn't say but also what I can say is that we didn't intend to shoot at Mondli. MR SNYMAN Did you strike Siyanda Ngubane when you shot at him? MR NGCOBO Yes, I did. MR SNYMAN Where on his body? MR NGCOBO If I remember very well, I think it was on the chest. MR SNYMAN How many shots did you fire at him? MR NGCOBO Two shots. MR SNYMAN Mr Ngcobo, I believe that some of the family members of Siyanda Ngubane are present here at the hearing today. Is there anything that you would like to convey to them? MR NGCOBO There is. MR SNYMAN Please proceed. MR NGCOBO Once again I would like to apologise to the family of Ngubane and the relatives and the community. Siyanda is a relative to me but what happened, happened not because of any personal vendetta but it was because of political conflict, therefore I would like to apologise to the community at large. MR SNYMAN Now you told us when dealing with the various killings that you received instructions from certain people who were holding positions in the IFP, usually Chairpersons of various divisions. Can you explain why were you prepared to listen to them, to execute their instructions to kill other people? MR NGCOBO The reason why I was prepared, it was because I myself had experienced attacks towards me. For instance, even my home was attacked many times, sometimes with firearms and one time the house was burned down. Even if we were travelling by cars, those cars were attacked at night. CHAIRPERSON Please let the witness continue. MR NGCOBO It was not my intention to do something of that nature, but I was forced by the situation because I was in danger of losing my life. ADV SANDI Just one thing. You say your home was attacked and you had information that Ngubane was one of the people who had taken part in the attack. Did you go and report this at the police station? MR NGCOBO Yes, we did report to the police. ADV SANDI What happened after you had reported the matter at the police station? MR NGCOBO We would make reports to the police and they will not take any action. ADV SANDI Who went to the police station to report? MR NGCOBO Sometimes it would be Tswalitje Ntombela or Mr David Ntombela. Sometimes the police will come to my home and we would give them such information but nothing would happen thereafter. ADV SANDI Yes, but just explain something, I'm not able to understand. When you went to the police station with your girlfriend to report what had happened to her, were you expecting the police to take any action about this? MR NGCOBO Yes, we reported because we wanted them to take action. ADV SANDI Sorry, can you repeat that, I didn't follow. CHAIRPERSON He said they reported it because they expected the police to take action. ADV SANDI At what stage did you change and not expect the police to take action? MR NGCOBO That happened because the police did not take any action after we had reported incidents, therefore we and the leaders decided to take action on our own. ADV SANDI Mr Snyman, sorry - carry on. MR SNYMAN Thank you Sir. Were you or any of the others at any stage, arrested for the murders of Sishle Mkhize and Siyanda Ngubane? MR NGCOBO No, no one was arrested with regards to the murder of Sishle. About Mr Ngubane, the police did arrive and Mr Ntombela's home. MR MALAN Were you ever questioned by the police? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR MALAN When was that? MR NGCOBO It was on a Sunday. MR MALAN In what year? MR NGCOBO If I'm not mistaken it was 1992. MR MALAN Were they investigating these murders? MR NGCOBO Actually we were arrested on our way from Mr Bernard Mkhize's home. We were travelling in a car. We passed a vehicle that was driven by Mr Ngubane's father. MR MALAN I'm not sure that I understand your answer. I've asked you whether you've been questioned by the police on these murders, were they investigating these murders, any of them, and asking you questions about them? MR NGCOBO They did investigate the matter and they questioned us at the police station. MR MALAN Was this 1992 you say? MR NGCOBO I think it was 1992. MR MALAN Did they take a statement from you? MR NGCOBO No, they did not. MR MALAN Why did they ask you questions? MR NGCOBO They just asked us what we knew about Siyanda's death and we responded that we didn't know anything. MR MALAN Did they call you to the police station? Did they come and fetch you? How did it happen? MR NGCOBO We had been arrested because there were home-made firearms that had been found in our possession and for that reason we were taken to the police station. MR MALAN Were you charged with regard to the firearms? MR NGCOBO Yes. MR MALAN Were you found guilty? MR NGCOBO No, the case was withdrawn. MR MALAN Did they ask you any questions about the death of Majola? MR NGCOBO No. MR MALAN Of Bhengu? MR NGCOBO No. MR MALAN Of Nduleni or Nzuza or the Shelembe boy or Manglethu? MEMBER OF AUDIENCE ...(inaudible - not using a microphone) CHAIRPERSON Please, the reason why, this is how it was mentioned in the statement made by the applicant. MEMBER OF AUDIENCE ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Yes, alright we apologise for that. MEMBER OF AUDIENCE ...(inaudible) Shelembe man, not the Shelembe boy. CHAIRPERSON Yes. He can be referred to as Mr Shelembe. MR MALAN Were you questioned about the death of Mr Shelembe? MR NGCOBO No, I was not. MR MALAN And not about Mr Manglethu and Ngcobo? Never asked questions about his death? MR NGCOBO No, I was never asked questions on that. MR MALAN Thank you Mr Snyman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ngcobo, let's see if we can clear the question of Mr Shelembe up. Did you know Mr Shelembe, the one that's referred to in your amnesty application? MR NGCOBO I think there may be some confusion. There is one Shelembe from ...(indistinct) and another one from ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, you say one was from where? Please be quiet we want to hear the evidence. One was from which area and one was from what other area? Could you just mention the two areas? MR NGCOBO One was killed in the Mbuyi area, that's the one I'm referring to. Another one was from the Ndweka area, but I do not know the circumstances surrounding his death. MR MALAN Can we please have quiet there? CHAIRPERSON Please. Please be quiet, we've ... I think we'll take a short adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, we'll continue now. Please, let's just finish with the evidence of the applicant, Mr Snyman. MR SNYMAN Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ngcobo, I think it is important at this stage to clear out exactly who is the Mr Shelembe that you refer to in your application for amnesty. To refresh your memory you mentioned the name of Shelembe together with those of Shorty Nduleni, Bhekinzone Nzuza and Manglethu Ngcobo. Now can you tell the Committee and all the other people present, who is the Mr Shelembe you are referring to in your application? MR NGCOBO The person I'm referring to is Ngoma Shelembe. We had committed the crime the previous night and then the person fled the following morning and he was attacked later on that day. MR SNYMAN What was the approximate age of this Ngoma Shelembe? MR NGCOBO It is not easy to estimate, but I would think he was around my age or slightly older than me. MR SNYMAN So 8 years ago that would have been round about 22 years of age, is that so? MR NGCOBO I think he was slightly older than me although I cannot be certain. MR SNYMAN Did you know him personally? MR NGCOBO Yes, I did. MR SNYMAN Was he married or did he have a wife? MR NGCOBO He was not married. MR SNYMAN Do you know whether or not he had any children? MR NGCOBO I do not have such knowledge. MR SNYMAN Lastly, Mr Ngcobo, at the time, 1990 to 1992 when all these incidents happened in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, how did you at that time feel about the ANC? MR NGCOBO At that time I did not like the ANC at all. MR SNYMAN Thank you Mr Chairperson. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SNYMAN CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Ms Jelal, I think this would be a convenient - I see it's twenty past four, a convenient time to adjourn. MS JELAL Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It's now twenty past four, we'll now adjourn until tomorrow morning and we'd like to start at 9 o'clock in the morning or so soon thereafter as is possible, so we'll adjourn to this venue at 9 o'clock in the morning. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS