amntrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMITTEE, AMNESTY HEARING 1999-12-09 PALMRIDGE , JOHANNESBURG 1 THULANI TERRENCE TSOTSETSE (THULANI TERRENCE MLABA), NGEMA TAVERN SHOOTING AM4400/96 (CONTINUATION OF HEARING HELD FROM 6TH TO 8TH SEPTEMBER 1999) https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53973&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99120910_jhb_991209.htm CHAIRPERSON I again apologise for the late start. Apparently not everybody got here in time. Are we now in a position to commence, Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson, we are ready to start. CHAIRPERSON When we concluded the last hearing, we had just commenced with the evidence of Mr Tsotsetse. He had been sworn in and he testified for about 5 minutes before we had to stop. So we will continue from there but I think because of the long gap, I'll swear in Mr Tsotsetse again. THULANI TERRENCE TSOTSETSE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Padi when we stopped last time it was for reasons of Mr Tsotsetse's health. I must say he looks a lot better now. Is he in a position to continue with his evidence? MR PADI Yes, he's in a much better position. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Padi. MR PADI Thank you Mr Chair. EXAMINATION BY MR PADI (Cont) Mr Tsotsetse, in your application form you are applying for amnesty for several incidents which, among others, include the killing of the people in the Ngema Section, ...(indistinct). Is that not so? MR TSOTSETSE ...(not translated) MR PADI You are again applying for amnesty for conspiracy to kill Sam Nduli(?), is that so? MR TSOTSETSE Will you please repeat your question? The last one, I didn't get it. MR PADI I said you are also applying for amnesty for conspiracy to kill Sam Nduli, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI You are also applying for the murder of Norman Sithole. MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI Mr Tsotsetse in the latest affidavit that you gave in, these are the only incidents that you state. Do you see the affidavit in front of you? I'm referring to the latest affidavit that was brought in by Mr Tsotsetse. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, is everybody in possession of one of these affidavits? Do all the legal representatives have one? MR RICHARD I do not have a supplementary affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Do you not have one? MR RICHARD I do not. CHAIRPERSON Mr Padi, do you have a spare copy? You don't have one. MR MAPOMA Neither do we, Mr Chair. MR MAPOMA I apologise Mr Chair, I was under the impression that all the legal representatives ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, I must say I was under that impression as well. Do you want some time to read this Mr Richard? MR RICHARD No, I don't need any postponement, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON I wonder, Mr Mapoma, if you could just get hold of the logistics officer to make a copy. They can use mine if they want to for those persons who haven't got. I think just leave that one with Mr Richard. Let him read it. We need some copies. How many people need? Is it two? Two for you - three copies please. Thank you. Do the interpreters have? Sorry Matthew, if you could just inquire from the interpreters, they also need another 3, so that's 6. Thank you. Mr Padi. MR PADI Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Tsotsetse, we were still saying that on this latest supplementary affidavit that you put in, these are the only three incidents which you have stated for which you are applying for amnesty. Are there any other incidents which maybe you did not include here on this affidavit, that you might want to apply for amnesty for? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, these are the ones in front of me and two others, like the one of the taxi or of the taxis as well as the one when Mzizi paid me a visit in prison. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but somebody visiting you in prison is not a matter to apply for amnesty for. Amnesty, you apply for amnesty in respect of offences committed by yourself. I don't know what the taxi one is either. Is it in the application form? Because we ...(intervention) MR PADI It is in the application form Mr Chair. It involves the killing of the people in taxis. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PADI Mr Tsotsetse in your initial application form, you stated that you are applying for amnesty for the killing of a comrade known to you as Happy Thokoza. I'm referring to page 81, paragraph 2.1 (c). So are you applying for amnesty for the killing of this Happy Thokoza here? MR TSOTSETSE No, about the death of Happy, I do have some idea although I was not present. I wasn't there. MR PADI Are there maybe any other issues that you'd like to bring forward for which you will be applying for amnesty, before we just start entering into the main details? MR TSOTSETSE Like the one of getting the people out of their houses to go for the meetings of the IFP, Inkatha Freedom Party. MR PADI The last one Mr Tsotsetse, would it be the forced removal of the people from their houses, or how, what is it exactly that you will be applying for amnesty for in that one? MR TSOTSETSE I will put it very simple. People were coerced, enforced to get out of their houses, harassed to do so, others will be killed in the process, so it was not on their own volition that they would leave their houses and go for the meeting. MR PADI Thank you Mr Tsotsetse. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Padi, is that if one looks at page 83, is that paragraph (f) on page 83? MR PADI Yes that would be paragraph (f). CHAIRPERSON Page 83, paragraph (f). So I think let's just get this clear before we proceed. So he's applying for amnesty in respect of the Ngema Tavern incident, in respect of the conspiracy to kill Mr Nduli, in respect of the murder of Mr Sithole, in respect of paragraph (f) on page 83 and in respect of paragraph (g) on page 83, that's the murder of people in taxis? MR PADI That is correct, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything else? I think if we can just clear this up. MR PADI Mr Tsotsetse, is there anything else that you'd like to apply for amnesty for? For example on page 83 paragraph (e) you said that you were applying for amnesty for the possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition. MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is so. MR PADI Yes, thank you. Mr Tsotsetse you stated that you have submitted two application forms for amnesty, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI The application form on page 68 of the bundle, would it be one of the application forms that you've submitted while applying for amnesty? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI And you state here that an inmate by the name of Michael Bellingan helped you to fill in the first application form, is that so? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI Would you at all have any knowledge which one of the two applications that you filled in, this one is? MR TSOTSETSE You see when I take a look at the one right in front of me, it seems that's the one that Michael Bellingan assisted me with. MR PADI In filling in these application forms, you would relate a story to a person who was assisting you, in this instance to Michael Bellingan and he would fill in the application form for you, is that so? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, you see I would relate the story to him and he will ask me for any clarifications and I will do so and in turn he will fill in the form. MR PADI Mr Tsotsetse are you a card-carrying member of the IFP? CHAIRPERSON Maybe before you proceed Mr Padi, do we have a second application form? I don't have one in my papers. MR PADI I don't have one in my papers either Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV BOSMAN Mr Padi just to enable us to have a clear picture, would it be possible for you to indicate whether your client was convicted on each of these offences that you've listed here that he will be applying for amnesty for? MR PADI Yes, let me lead him on that, Honourable Chair. ADV BOSMAN Couldn't you perhaps do that now, then we have a clear picture of exactly what the position is? MR PADI Yes, I'll do that right away. Thank you. Mr Tsotsetse for the incidents for which you are applying for amnesty, which ones were you arrested and convicted for? ADV BOSMAN Perhaps you can lead him, it will make it much quicker if you can just ask him: "Were you convicted for the Ngema Tavern, conspiracy to kill Mr Nduli? Just go down the list. CHAIRPERSON Ngema Tavern incident, was he charged and convicted in respect of that? MR PADI Yes, he was charged and convicted for that one and the one for Norman Sithole. These are the only two incidents for which he was convicted. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR PADI Thank you. Mr Tsotsetse are you a card-carrying member of the IFP? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I do have a card, although I don't have it with me. INTERPRETER In other words he is a card-carrying member of IFP. MR PADI When did you join the IFP? MR TSOTSETSE In 1991. MR PADI Is it true that you were recruited by Mr Mafulela and Mr Khumalo? INTERPRETER And Mr who? MR PADI And Mr Khumalo. MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI Would the Mr Khumalo that we are referring to be Mbhekiseni Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, he's the one. MR PADI And Mafulela, what are his full names? MR TSOTSETSE It think its Obed Albert Mkhatjwa. MR PADI And these are people that you regarded as leaders in the IFP in the areas of Thokoza and Natalspruit, is that so? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, when I got there, I realised, I thought that they were the ones, but as time went on I discovered that there were others as well besides them. MR PADI And again is it true that you knew that they held positions of leadership but you don't know exactly what position each one of them held. MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI Thank you. Is it again true that prior to the conflict that erupted in the Thokoza area, you were involved in stealing cars? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI And that you would sell these cars to various people, both in the hostels and in the locations? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI And that Mafulela was your regular customer and as a result you grew closer together, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI And as for Mbhekiseni Khumalo, you knew him as a bishop and you knew him of notoriety of killing people, is that correct?. MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Chair, might I interject at this stage? I full understand that Mr Padi has to lead his client on certain formalities but currently Mr Padi is the one giving evidence. CHAIRPERSON Mr Padi at the moment you're just putting leading questions and he's answering them but you know if you've done an affidavit, what is common practice is and I don't know if you want to follow it, but what can be done is for the applicant to confirm the affidavit and perhaps read it into the record. MR PADI Thank you Mr Chair. So would the suggested approach be that I read the entire ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well, you can get him to or you can show him this new supplementary affidavit and ask him if its his, etc and whether he confirms the contents of it and I think then perhaps for the benefit of the people in the hall, the victims and the other implicated people, that it should be read into the record and perhaps the most efficient way unless there's any objection, would be for you to read it perhaps sentence or paragraph by paragraph and get him to confirm it as you go on and then after that you can highlight anything you wish to highlight, fill in any gaps or whatever. MR PADI Thank you. I'll follow that approach then Mr Chairman. Mr Tsotsetse, do you see this affidavit in front of you? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I see it. MR PADI On the last page, page 7, is this your signature? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is my signature. MR PADI Have you read the contents of this affidavit? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I did read. MR PADI And do you confirm that the contents of this affidavit are true? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is so. MR MAPOMA I'm sorry Chairperson, I would suggest just for the purpose of procedure that we label this affidavit as Exhibit B. CHAIRPERSON I think as far as I can recall we've only got the one exhibit. It will be Exhibit B. And have you all got copies of it now? You've got copies. This affidavit then that's just been referred to, it's and affidavit deposed to by the applicant on the 30th of October 1999 will then be received as Exhibit B. Yes, Mr Padi. MR PADI Thank you Mr Chair. Can I then go on to read the contents of this? I, the undersigned, Thulani Terrence Tsotsetse, do hereby make oath and say: I'm the applicant herein and the facts contained here are within my personal knowledge true and correct. In my application forms I'm referred to as Thulani Terrence Mlaba/Tsotsetse. My real surname is Tsotsetse. I got to use the surname Mlaba because of my involvement with Mafulela Mlaba. Do you confirm what I've just read, Mr Tsotsetse? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI You state in this affidavit that you are applying, okay "I'm applying for amnesty for the following crimes which occurred in the Ngema Section Natalspruit on the 22nd of January 1993, conspiracy to kill, conspiring with people who killed Sam Nduli and the murder of Norman Sithole." Do you confirm that contents of this paragraph as well? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR PADI In addition to these, you confirm that you are also applying for amnesty for incidents that you've just mentioned earlier on, which are not mentioned in this affidavit per se. MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR PADI "I have submitted two application - two forms for amnesty application. An inmate by the name of Michael Bellingan helped me to complete the first application form. A lawyer whose name I cannot remember, completed the second application form. In both instances I would narrate the story relating to the incidents for which I am applying for amnesty and they would fill in the form and prepare the annexed affidavit." Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR PADI "I am a card-carrying member of the Inkatha Freedom Party. I joined the IFP in 1991. I was recruited by Mr Mafulela and Mr Khumalo. These are the people I regarded as leaders in the IFP. In the areas of Thokoza and Natalspruit. I do not know the particular positions of leadership that each held, but I know them to be very influential in the IFP." Do you confirm as well? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI "Prior to the conflict that erupted in the Thokoza area, I was involved in stealing cars. I would sell these to various people, both in the hostels and in the location. Mafulela Mlaba was my regular customer. I therefore grew closer to him." Do you confirm this? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR PADI "As for Mbhekiseni Khumalo I knew him as a bishop and of his notoriety of killing people. I first got into contact with him when he was looking for Mogadi whom he accused of raping his daughter. He came into a shebeen at Twala Section, Thokoza where I was drinking together with my friends. Mogadi was in our company. We were in the garage when we heard Khumalo accusing one lady of hiding criminals. He then came into the garage where we were drinking carrying an AK47. I bumped into the barrel of this AK47 and it chipped my front tooth as we were running away. That was my first contact with Khumalo. I knew from then that I was now one of the people hunted and as I was now considered to be a friend to Mogadi. Mafulela told ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just read it as it stands Mr Padi. MR PADI Thank you Mr Chairman. "Mafulela told that it is possible that Khumalo did not know my identity. Khumalo found me at Mafulela's place. The latter introduced me and that was the beginning of my involvement with Khumalo." Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR PADI The next paragraph relates to the Ngema Tavern incident. "At the time of this incident, I was staying with Mafulela at his place in Thokoza. That morning Mafulela and myself went to Angus to do some shopping. From Angus we went to Khumalo's place. There were a number of people as there were preparations for the funeral of Khumalo's wife. Mafulela went into the house while I remained in the yard, conversing with various people who were there. We were there for about ten minutes when Khumalo asked me to accompany him to Kwesenye Hostel, to get some bullets. Mafulela got into his ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Padi, just remember the interpreters are trying to keep up with you. MR PADI Okay, Mr Chair. "We were there for about 10 minutes when Khumalo asked me to accompany him to Kwesenye Hostel to get some bullets. Mafulela got into his car and left. I got into the car with Mbhekiseni. As we drove off, he told me that he wanted to show me where the ANC comrades hung out and that they should be killed. We went to Ngema Section, Natalspruit where he pointed out the house. I asked him about the time of their gathering. He said that we could get them in the evening and in the mornings." Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI "We then drove to Kwesenye Hostel. He got into one of the rooms in the hostel and came out with a bank sack filled with bullets. We drove back to his house and I left for Mafulela's place. It was about 2 p.m. then. I found Themba Zimu and Thembinkosi Buthelezi at Mafulela's place. I cannot remember well what happened immediately thereafter, but at about 6 p.m. Mafulela said that we should go and help at Khumalo's place. He drove the three of us there and left. It was myself, Themba and Thembinkosi. When we arrived we found a lot of people in the yard who were standing in groups. We went to the groups with Jabo Khumalo, Mbhekiseni's son and others. I cannot remember the number of people who were in that group. We were there for about 30 minutes when Mzwakhe Khumalo, also Mbhekiseni's son, called us and said that Mbhekiseni wanted to see us at the back yard. We followed him. It was myself, Themba, Thembinkosi, Jabo and Dume. Dume is also Mbhekiseni's son." Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph, Mr Tsotsetse? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI "When we got to the back of the yard, Mzwakhe told Jabo and Dume to go back and that they were not required. There were fewer people on this side of the yard. Mzwakhe then called Mbhekiseni and went to fetch Zwile Chamane. Mbhekiseni told me that the house he showed me earlier that day was the house which we were supposed to attack. Somebody, I don't know this person, brought guns and gave them to Mbhekiseni. He held them openly in full view of people who were around. The guns were 3 AK47s and a Z88 pistol. Mbhekiseni gave AKs to Themba, Thembinkosi and Zwile and a Z88 pistol was given to me. I did not have my own gun, a CZ88, with me then as it went for repairs." Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph, Mr Tsotsetse? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI We left for Ngema Section in Natalspruit, which was between 5 and 6 kilometres from where we were. It was already dark. Thembinkosi told us that he did not know how to operate an AK47. I suggested that we get to Twala Section at Boshini's place. When we got there, Zwile Showed Thembinkosi how to operate the AK. We stayed there for less than 5 minutes. We then proceeded to Ngema Section. Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I do. MR PADI "When we got to the targeted tavern, we found one person known to me as Sipho standing outside. I asked him who was inside. He said he was with another person. I told him to get that person and that they should leave. He did that. I then went to look inside the garage. I saw people drinking and talking. The music was playing high. I had a gun in my hand and told the people to keep quiet. Zwile was the person who was immediately behind me. They paid attention to me, but the music was still playing. I shot at the speaker but it continued playing. I went outside. Asked Priscilla from where the "hi-fi" was being operated. She pointed out one of the outside rooms. In that room I found one gentleman whom I told to switch the music off. I then heard gun shots and screams from the direction of the garage. When I got out of the room, I saw my accomplices running away and I followed them." Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR PADI "We went to Mphikeleli's place in Thokoza which was not far from Ngema Section. Mphikeleli's driver, I don't know his name, took us to Khumalo's place after we told him what we just did. Khumalo asked if we found them, referring to people at Ngema Section. Zwile responded by saying that we did. Khumalo then asked for the gun. I left with Themba and I went to Mafulela's place and Themba went home." Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR PADI The next paragraph, Mr Tsotsetse relates to the killing of Sam Nduli. "The first meeting that I know of which preceded the killing of Sam Nduli, was held at Kuthuza Hostel. People who were present were Abraham Mzizi, Obed Radebe, Mafulela Mlaba, Tereblanche Msomi, Zwile Chamane and Themba Zimu." Do you confirm this? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR PAID "What I said at the meeting generally was that Nduli was a threat to the IFP and should be eliminated. Themba and myself were given the instructions to steal two cars, a van and a private car and to deliver them to Msomi. Two days later we went to Alberton and stole a Toyota motor vehicle during the day and in the evening we stole a van. We gave the motor vehicles to Msomi at Kuthuza Hostel." Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR PADI The next paragraph, Mr Tsotsetse, relates to the killing of Norman Sithole. "Booi Sithole was an influential comrade in Natalspruit. In a drive to eliminate the IFP opposition and to weaken the ANC, Mafulela gave me instructions to kill Booi Sithole. Mafulela knew that Booi's sister was my girlfriend and we have a child. I took those instructions as a test and I knew that if I did not follow the instructions I would be in danger. I went to Booi's place with Thembinkosi, Mafika and Stanley. Only Mafika and myself had guns. We stood at the pavement next to Booi's place. Norman, Booi's brother, approached walking towards his home. He walked past us, then stopped. He looked at our direction and called my name, put his hand in his belt as if he was reaching for a gun. I shot him in the chest and we ran away." Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI Mr Tsotsetse you said that in addition to the incidents that you have mentioned in this affidavit, you are applying for amnesty for the killing of passengers in taxis, can you briefly tell the Committee how this was done? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I could explain. MR PADI Please do that. MR TSOTSETSE "You see in the area of Thokoza it was divided into two. There was one part of Thokoza where it was predominantly IFP and the other was predominantly ANC. Because of the death, the taxis also were divided. The taxis that were always servicing the IFP area will not at all go to the other side. Even the signs were different because when you were in the other side of ...(indistinct) for instance toward Eden Park, there will be a different sign, different from the one that was stationed in the IFP area so that we were supposed each time we encounter a kombi from the opposite side we take it and Khumalo also had a white E20, a kombi and Mzwakhe who was the son of Khumalo is also a driver or was also a driver and Khumalo will give us these cars and send us to town. When we get to town on our way back we will say we must get on board the people who wanted to go to the ANC area. Some knew Mzwakhe and would not even attempt to get into that car. We were disguising to be their taxi, in other words others will not see him from the outside but once they are inside the taxi, they will see him and watch to escape immediately when the taxi will be in motion and once we succeeded in getting them, we will take them straight to the hostel." MR PADI Ms Tsotsetse, do you know Sam Mashiane? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I do know him. MR PADI Do you know that Mr Mashiane was killed? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I do know that. MR PADI Did you participate in any way in his killing? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. MR PADI Can you tell the Committee how you did that? MR TSOTSETSE You see, we found Sam in Alberton but towards the outskirts of Alberton, to Alrode, they were the people who were intending to go to the location and we went and pointed at the sign of the ANC and the people got in and I realised that these were the people I knew very well. Sam was there amongst others. There were two. The other one knew already, or suspected what was happening, because he knew me and when he was about to get into the car, it wasn't easy for him to follow because the one was already in the car, but the other decided not to get in, but Sam Mashiane was in already and we drove off with him and took him to the hostel. After a few days, three days or four days maybe, I heard, I think I read from the newspaper that he was discovered at the hostel gate, dead. CHAIRPERSON Sorry before you proceed Mr Padi, you've told us not that you pretend you were an ANC taxi, pick up people, take them to the hostel, what would you do with them at the hostel? Did you just drop them off there, or were they taken inside the hostel? If you could just be a little bit more explicit. MR TSOTSETSE You see we would drive right inside the hostel and leave them right inside the hostel and there were so many people, we will just leave them there and inform them that these are the people and they knew very well what steps to take, the people in the hostel that is. CHAIRPERSON And do you know what happened to those people who were left at the hostel? Okay, you've told us that Sam Mashiane was, after a couple of days, found dead at the gate of the hostel, but the other people you dropped there, and if you could also give an indication of approximately how many people you yourself were involved in taking to the hostel in that fashion. MR TSOTSETSE You see this is one way I will approach this. It was obvious that when we take them there, they would be killed, because all the time there were corpses that were taken out of the premises of the hostel. The reason why I'm referring strictly to Sam Mashiane it's because he's the person that I was being harassed about because there was no way I could even set him free from the game he was in and he was the one person I knew very well and he was already in the car, there was no way I could assist him, or help him escape the ordeal. CHAIRPERSON But how many people would you say that you delivered to the hostel in this fashion? More or less, if you can give us an approximation of the numbers of people that you took to the hostel to be dealt with by the hostel dwellers. MR TSOTSETSE Well, I think it was less than 5. CHAIRPERSON I mean, what's less than 5? You've told us about Sam Mashiane. Was it four? Two? Was he the only one? You say it was less than 5. MR TSOTSETSE You see it will be Sam Mashiane and two, three. You see when this happened, I was present. CHAIRPERSON You're saying you took Sam Mashiane plus two or three other people to the hostel in this manner? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON And approximately when was this, Mr Tsotsetse? What year are we talking about here? What period? MR TSOTSETSE I was referring here to 1993, in the middle of the year. ADV SIGODI You say that it was clear to you that these people would be eliminated at the hostel, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. ADV SIGODI Do you perhaps know what happened to those bodies after they had been eliminated? MR TSOTSETSE As to the details of what would happen, I have know idea. Other bodies would be set alight and others would be just released freely, without any burning. ADV SIGODI Yes, but what would happen to the bodies of those people who would be released? Would they be thrown in the street for people to discover the following day, or what would happen to them? MR TSOTSETSE You see they will be killed, others will be killed, even before they died maybe they would be taken out of the hostel yard and others would be taken by the police from the incident, be taken away. ADV SIGODI What would happen to the people, where would the people be burned, the people who would be burned, where would that take place? MR TSOTSETSE You see once the person has been killed on that particular spot, that's where he will be burned, but within or inside the hostel premises. ADV SIGODI So do you have personal knowledge of people who were discovered in the hostel, whose bodies had been burned? Did you witness that yourself? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, some part of it I would see. Even outside of the hostel, just towards the houses, some people would be burned and I would witness that, but once they begin the burning process they would already have been shot at. ADV SIGODI And do you know if the police came to take the bodies? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, the police would come. ADV SIGODI Do you have knowledge of people who were responsible for burning and shooting these people in the hostel, if you witnessed it? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I would say some I know, because I'm one of them who would shoot and others I was not well used to them then. ADV SIGODI So you are telling us now that you would take the people to the hostel and then you would also be responsible for shooting the people in the hostel? Is that your evidence now? MR TSOTSETSE No, I'm trying to explain outside the hostel, the others who will be burned in my presence. ADV SIGODI I don't understand. I am referring specifically to the people you would take and take them to the hostel for them to be killed. MR TSOTSETSE You see, with regards to those, we would drop them in and leave immediately, drive out immediately to the location and others, maybe as we are still driving to the hostel, into the hostel, we would see some already in the process of burning and others would be seen maybe three days later has been already burned and one will not be knowing or know as to when and how he died, or they died. ADV SIGODI Would you hand these people over to specific people in the hostel? You can't just leave them in the hostel, surely you must take them to certain people in the hostel who would know what to do with them? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is true. ADV SIGODI And who did you hand them to? MR TSOTSETSE You see others I knew, but others I did not know, I will just know them by sight, although I would have some that I knew by name. ADV SIGODI And who are those? You are making an application for amnesty. You have a duty to make a full disclosure, so it is you who must say: "I did this, I took the people, I took them to so-and-so and so-and-so did this with them", because if you want to get amnesty you must make a full disclosure as to what you actually did, who you killed, how many people you killed, who was involved with you there. So who did you hand these people over to at the hostel? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I can explain this very simply. The people I knew very well were the leaders and there were the followers, that I knew like for instance Mr Msomi, who was well-known as Tereblanche. He was one person you will often find in the hostel as well as the other by the name of Nkunzi Buvu, light in complexion and others called Nkunu and others as well of our same age. There were so many people in the hostel, so when the car drives in filled with people, all people would want to come and see as to who we had inside the car and others would even pull them out before the car stops still and there will be just a kind of commotion. ADV SIGODI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Padi. MR PADI Thank you Mr Chair. I think at this stage I'll open it to cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON What about the forced evictions from the houses? MR PADI Thank you. Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON That was the other matter he raised. MR PADI Mr Tsotsetse, you said that you are applying for amnesty for the forced eviction of people from their houses. Can you tell the Committee what happened and what was your involvement in that? MR TSOTSETSE As I've already explained that Thokoza was divided into two sections, as there was this conflict. Within the IFP, still there will be people who were not necessarily supporting the IFP thoughts and activities, but dwelling within the area of IFP, so that we would harass them and force them to do things we want them to do or to act in line with the rest and sometimes I would have heard that a certain person is not wanted in the area. I would go together with other people in my company and go and inform such a person that tomorrow or the next day he must not be seen at all, he must just vacate the area, because he is not working hand in hand with us and is not acting in line with our actions. MR PADI Was there any stage, Mr Tsotsetse, where you told a person to leave the IFP area and that person refused to do that? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, there's one person I once told that to. MR PADI What happened to that person? MR TSOTSETSE Well he had to leave. He left. He had some opportunity to get all his belongings and property in the house and leave immediately and the girl there or the daughter there had an intimate relationship with Themba. MR PADI Were there any instances where people were killed if they refused to leave their houses? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, there were instances where people would be killed. In a case when we get to the house, sometimes we would get into the house and find people died, that have been killed and so I would not know how that happened. MR PADI Have you yourself participated in the killing of the people that were to be forcefully removed from their houses? MR TSOTSETSE Well, as for the killing of the people who were stubborn about getting out of the houses, I don't recall a situation where I had an involvement. ADV BOSMAN Did you assault any people during the process of getting them out of their houses? MR TSOTSETSE No, I never did that. CHAIRPERSON Did you take it upon yourself to tell people to move or were you directed to the house by somebody else? If so, just could you give us details? MR TSOTSETSE Well, such things will be discussed at our meetings when we will be furnished with the information that certain people will have to leave the area and if they don't leave the area, they will have to be eliminated or killed, because they were problematic in the area of IFP, so that one we had such information, especially in my case, I was not quite used to the people of surveillance in the area, the few I knew, others would leave, get out and run away and leave others at the house, but as for assaulting any of these people, I've never done such. MR PADI Were you ever involved in the burning of houses of people who refused to leave the area? MR TSOTSETSE No, I never took part in such. MR PADI In the instances of people who leave their houses and left their belongings behind, what would happen to those people? MR TSOTSETSE Well, one thing I recall very well is that Khumalo would take the TV sets. He knew very well that certain people had already fled the area and he would take such items, video, TV sets and once he had accumulated a lot of them, he would take them to Alberton, at the pawn shop in Alberton. MR PADI Would Khumalo do this himself or he would instruct people to go take TVs in so-and-so's house? How would he eventually get possession of the TVs? MR TSOTSETSE Often times in such cases he would be the one driving and we would have to alight from the vehicle and load those items into the van or in the vehicle that we will be driving in and take them into his house. MR PADI Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions at this stage. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant, Mr Tsotsetse? MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, there is an arrangement between myself and Mr Swanepoel, that he will actually proceed first with cross-examination, if there's no objection to that. CHAIRPERSON Any objection to that? Mr Swanepoel, would you then like to put any questions? MR SWANEPOEL Thank you Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL Now Mr Tsotsetse, you testified that Mr Bellingan helped you to fill out the form contained on page 68 of bundle 1, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL Now in what language did you converse with him? MR TSOTSETSE In English. MR SWANEPOEL Do you understand English? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I do understand, but not that much. MR SWANEPOEL Alright. Now after you had the form filled out that is contained on page 68, was the oath administered to you, like it was today? MR TSOTSETSE No. MR SWANEPOEL Well, have a look, do you have the bundle in front of you? Have a look on page 74 of bundle 1, just before a hand-written statement by yourself starts. Do you notice there's a signature of a Commissioner of Oaths and what appears to be some indication that an oath was administered? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I can see that. MR SWANEPOEL Can you now recall this oath being administered to you? MR TSOTSETSE No, I cannot recall. MR SWANEPOEL Alright. Your instructions to Mr Bellingan, did he follow them? Did you see him write down what you said to him? MR TSOTSETSE I think so. MR SWANEPOEL And in your preparation for your evidence today, did you read through your statement? Your application for amnesty contained from pages 68 to 80 of bundle 1 in front of you. MR TSOTSETSE No, I did not read the statement. MR SWANEPOEL Can you confirm whether the contents of that statement are correct or not? MR TSOTSETSE I do not know, because I did not read the statement. MR SWANEPOEL Well, Mr Tsotsetse, that is your amnesty application. That is the basis of your evidence today. Can you confirm whether it is correct or not? MR TSOTSETSE I will explain like this. The statement that I compiled with Pearce, who is also an inmate, there was another person who was working for the TRC who was with Frank Mogale and his name was Pearce. Most of the details I related to him. I related the details to him and even the statement that I wrote with Bellingan, I gave it to Pearce. I think if one can read it to me, I can be able to recall. CHAIRPERSON You see, if you take a look Mr Tsotsetse at page 68 to 74, that's the application form and then pages 75 through to 80, that's the affidavit which was signed on the same day. It looks like, just at a glance in any event, that it's the same handwriting. The person who actually wrote the details in the form is most likely the same person who wrote the affidavit, it looks similar. Now is this Mr Bellingan's handwriting, or is it Pearce's? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairman. Now are you telling the Committee that you did not read through this statement of yours at all before you came to give evidence today? Is that correct? CHAIRPERSON Ever, from the 12th of - have you ever read this statement and your form, at any time? MR TSOTSETSE The statement that I read is the one that is in front of me, the one that we were talking about earlier on. CHAIRPERSON We're talking about the statement that appears on page 75. It starts on page 75 of the document. have you ever read that? When you signed it. When you put your signature to it, had you read it prior to doing that, or had it been read to you? MR TSOTSETSE No, I do not remember reading the statement. I cannot even remember anyone reading the statement to me. CHAIRPERSON Mr Swanepoel. MR SWANEPOEL As you please Mr Chair. If you will bear with me for a moment, I need to confirm this. Mr Tsotsetse you gave evidence that two statements were taken from you. CHAIRPERSON Two application forms I think as well, that's said in this affidavit, in today's affidavit. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON In today's affidavit, yes. MR SWANEPOEL More correctly that two applications were lodged for amnesty on your behalf, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE The first statement is Pearce's, if my memory serves me correctly and that is, Mark(sic) Bellingan was the first one and Pearce came with a legal representative while I was in Boksburg prison and then he took another statement, the statement that I signed. Most of the details that we were discussing with him, he told me that I would assist the Commission with that information, but after writing the statement, after compiling the statement, he never read the statement to me, he told me to sign. M SWANEPOEL Now the statement that you are talking about now, that was never read to you, but you were told to sign, was that the statement taken by Pearce, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE The one that I signed was the one that was compiled by the legal representative. MR SWANEPOEL Alright, so that is a different statement from the one that appears on page 68 of the bundle, because you testified that this statement was taken down by Bellingan, your fellow inmate, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON Perhaps he should look at it. Mr Tsotsetse, you'll see that both the application form on page 74, which you've already been shown by Mr Swanepoel, has been signed by yourself, or apparently so. Take a look at page 74 and then take a look again at page, sorry, take a look at the bottom of page 73 and the bottom of page 79, there's a signature at the bottom of each of those pages. Is that your signature? First of all, let's go to page 73, it says Thulani Mlaba. Did you write that? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now turn to page 79, right down at the bottom there is a signature, difficult to read. Did you make that signature? MR TSOTSETSE No, that is not my signature. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whose signature it is? MR TSOTSETSE No, I have no idea. CHAIRPERSON Because it purports to be your signature, because underneath it it is deponents and if you look at page 75 the deponent is Thulani Themba Mlaba Tsotsetse. MR TSOTSETSE So you say it's not your signature? MR PADI No this one is not his signature. I'm referring him to the initials. On the paragraph there are initials on the side which are purported to be his. CHAIRPERSON If you take a look on page 78 below (g) where it says Mlaba and also on page 79 in the margin it says Mlaba and on each of the pages there's a Mlaba. So that's yours, but you say that the signature at the bottom's not yours? The bottom of page 79. MR TSOTSETSE No, I do not remember signing there. CHAIRPERSON It's not a question of remembering signing there. Can you recognise that as being your signature? Many, many of us don't remember signing specific pieces of paper but when we see it we recognise it to be our signature, although we don't remember actually making it. Do you recognise this to be your signature, or not? MR TSOTSETSE No, that is not my signature. CHAIRPERSON Mr Swanepoel. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairperson. Alright. Now I do understand you correctly that your statement contained in pages 68 to 73 of the bundle, that was signed by you and did I understand you to say that you do not know what is contained therein? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL And do you know what is contained in the annexure, the affidavit from pages 75 to 79? Do you know what's contained therein? MR TSOTSETSE No, I do not know the contents of that statement, because I never read the statement. MR SWANEPOEL But do I understand your evidence to be that you remember Mr Bellingan took down the statement from you? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I was telling his as to what to write. MR SWANEPOEL Now did you know Mr Bellingan before you dictated this statement, or these two statements to him? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I used to see him because we were staying in the same section. MR SWANEPOEL And did he know you from the Thokoza days, in other words, from 1991 onwards, before you were incarcerated? CHAIRPERSON No I think just ask him, did you know him from prison or did you know him before prison? Because they were both inmates at the time when this was done. MR TSOTSETSE I first got to know him in jail. MR SWANEPOEL Alright. So he didn't know you before you were incarcerated and you were roaming the streets of Thokoza, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL Now, could you tell the Committee, from 1990 onwards, say from 1991 onwards, what the leadership structure of Inkatha in Thokoza looked like, who were the leaders to your knowledge? MR TSOTSETSE I am not in a position to say who was doing what. The only people that I can talk about are the people who used to address people. People like Indunas and Mafulela. I used to know him as a person who had a position in the IFP like Tereblanche, Msomi and the others, those are the people to me who look like people who operate and Mr Mzizi was amongst those people. MR SWANEPOEL Do you know specifically what position of authority any of those people occupied within the IFP? MR TSOTSETSE No, I have no idea. MR SWANEPOEL What position of authority did you occupy within the IFP, if any? MR TSOTSETSE No, I did not have any position. MR SWANEPOEL Now on page 68, in paragraph 7(b), the question that is asked in the standard form of this Commission is: "State capacity in which served in the organisation, institution, body or liberation movement concerned, if applicable, and membership number if any" and the answer filled out there is: "Leader of the IFP Youth League at Twala Section." Is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE I do not know this information because Twala was predominantly ANC not IFP. CHAIRPERSON Were you ever a leader of the IFP Youth League in any area? MR TSOTSETSE No. MR SWANEPOEL Now, where would Mr Bellingan get this information that you wrote down here, do you know? MR TSOTSETSE Mr Bellingan, some of the details he would get them from newspapers like Citizen and City Press, getting those newspaper from Pearce and he said those are the sources that are going to help me and he would take some of the details that were relating about the situation in Thokoza at the time. He would read those newspapers and then come back and tell me what was happening, but he was in jail at the time. MR SWANEPOEL So, do I understand your evidence to be that this application of yours is partly compiled from information contained in newspaper articles and from information furnished by one Pearce? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL And that you don't have any personal knowledge of those facts that is contained herein. They were furnished by a third party you met in jail? MR TSOTSETSE Perhaps if I can read this statement, I might be able to recognise some of the issues like the one that says that I was a leader of the IFP Youth, I do not remember telling Pearce about that. MR SWANEPOEL Yes. ADV BOSMAN Mr Swanepoel, may I just interrupt you for a moment? Mr Tsotsetse, how far did you get at school? MR TSOTSETSE Up to Standard 7. ADV BOSMAN So you can read and write English? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MR SWANEPOEL Yes, I just want to have absolute clarity. In your evidence in chief you, before this statement which was marked Exhibit B was read out to you, you confirmed the correctness thereof, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON He did that and then as it was read, he confirmed each paragraph. MR SWANEPOEL As you please Mr Chair. I just want to establish from the witness that he could read and understand what is contained in this English affidavit. Did you read this affidavit and understand what is contained in this? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chair. Alright. Now you said that you are not applying for amnesty for the murder of Happy anymore, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE As I explained before, Happy's incident, I was never arrested for those incidents, but Pearce wanted us to help him to that effect and that is why I even mentioned to him this incident of Happy. I know very well about it because I was in Khumalo's premises when Happy was killed. MR SWANEPOEL Did you witness Happy being killed? MR TSOTSETSE I did not see. I did not witness, but when they left for the killing I was in the premises and they left and then they came back telling me that they had shot him and they were even in possession of his firearm. MR SWANEPOEL Did you assist in the killing of Happy in any way whatsoever? MR TSOTSETSE Happy was always a wanted person and he used to escape all the time, but when he was found, I was left in the premises. If you move from Khumalo's house to Happy's house, it's not a big distance, it's not a long distance. MR SWANEPOEL Alright. Now who is this Pearce person, could you just tell the Committee again, who is he? MR TSOTSETSE He's a white gentleman who was working for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I think he was also an investigator, that's what I gathered from him, but now it looks like he's no longer in the employ of the TRC. MR SWANEPOEL Now you say he wanted you to help him, what did you mean by that? MR TSOTSETSE It means that Pearce took a statement about the incident of Ngema Tavern and then he later asked about the other incidents, killings that we know about Thokoza and then we told him about Sam Nduli, Happy and the others and the incidents of forcefully removing the people out of their houses. He just wanted us to give him evidence, so that he'll be able to follow traces during his investigations. MR SWANEPOEL And was part of the evidence that you gave to him, that you shot during 1992, that you shot and killed Happy Thokoza, did you say that to him? MR TSOTSETSE No, I do not recall telling him that, I only told him that I have an idea about Happy's death. MR SWANEPOEL Now look at page 75 of bundle 1 in front of you, in paragraph 2.1.(c), it says there very specifically "Also during 1992," a specific date is mentioned, "I shot and killed another member/comrade/ supporter of the ANC by the name of Happy Thokoza." Is that correct? MR PADI The copy that I have is not legible, so I'm referring ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The typed version is on page 81 and it's paragraph 2.1.(c). MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I think that's just the typed version of the preceding statement from page 75. 2.1 (c) Also during 1992 I shot and killed another member/comrade/supporter of ANC by the name of Happy Thokoza. This is contained in a statement, which is purportedly your statement. MR TSOTSETSE No, I do not recall anything about this Happy Thokoza. I didn't even know his surname, I only know his first name and the kombi that he was driving. I do not recall telling Pearce that I am the one who killed Happy. It's just that I was present when the people were leaving to kill. There would be an interpreter when communicating with Pearce. MR PADI I'm sorry Mr Chairman. It appears to me that where reference has been made to Happy and the name Happy is being followed by Thokoza, that Thokoza has more to do with the place where Happy was staying. It says Happy, Thokoza, address unknown. CHAIRPERSON So that Thokoza might actually initially have meant to refer to the place where he's from, but... MR PADI Yes, more than being the surname. CHAIRPERSON But it got written down as if it were his name. MR PADI That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Okay, we'll call him Happy. Thank you. MR SWANEPOEL As you please. Now where would this information have come from if you did not say that to Pearce and you did not say that to Bellingan, where did this information come from, do you think? MR TSOTSETSE I would say when I was communicating with Mr Pearce there was Mr Frank Mogale who was used as an interpreter. I can say the mistake happened during that process of interpreting. CHAIRPERSON Would this be a convenient time to take a short adjournment for the tea interval, Mr Swanepoel? MR SWANEPOEL As you please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON If we can resume at half past 11 please, 20 minutes. Thanks. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION THULANI TERRENCE TSOTSETSE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Swanepoel. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL (Cont) Mr Chairperson, Ms van der Westhuizen told me during the recess that she has certain things to place on record before we go any further, which have become relevant by virtue of the cross-examination. If we may? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Honourable Chairperson. I just wish to place on record that I made inquiries at the TRC's offices in Cape Town and more specifically inquired from Linda ...(indistinct), who compiled the evidence, as to obtain a copy of the second application of the applicant. I was informed that there is no such second application in the possession of the TRC's offices. I also made written a request and verbal request for a copy of the statement obtained by Mr Pearce and I assume it is the same person, Pearce Pigot who used to be with the Gauteng Investigating Unit and I was also informed that he never took a statement from this particular applicant. As it pleases the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms van der Westhuizen. MR PADI Mr Chair, can I respond to that? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PADI As far as I know there was another application that was made by Mr Mlaba. It related to the killing of a person on the funeral procession. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I personally was involved, but I can't recall Mr Mlaba's name, but I was involved in a hearing in Boksburg, relating to incidents which occurred on the day of the funeral of Mrs Khumalo. There was shooting in the street, actually on the day of the funeral, it might be that one. MR PADI That is the one that I was referring to, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, if I may, I'm in possession of that specific application because I represented or I was involved in representing another applicant in that matter. That application form as well as annexed affidavit, is exactly the same one as the one that is before this Committee, it's not any different, it's exactly the same. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Thank you. But that hearing only concerned the incidents of that particular day. Yes, thank you. Mr Swanepoel. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairperson. MR PADI Excuse me Chairperson, before he proceeds, I would like to respond as well to the issues that have been placed on record here. Chairperson, indeed, the TRC has got one amnesty application from the applicant who is testifying now and no other application in their database and secondly about the affidavit which is said to have been taken by Mr Pearce Pigot, I am at the moment trying to get hold of Pearce Pigot, he is in Johannesburg, and I will get an account from his upon me having spoken to him directly. Unfortunately I have not managed to get him at the moment. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Because I know and it's not always the case, but the usual procedure is that these application forms are received, maybe together with a supplementary affidavit like in this form by the Commission, put on the database etc and then if there's any query etc, the investigators would write a letter asking for further information and that's usually the time when the TRC staff would come in to get further and better details. That was the usual procedure, so it might be possible that, if he was approached by Mr Pearce, it might be in respect of getting further details, but not necessarily so. MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Chairman. I am surely constrained to come into the matter. I would have preferred to say nothing on the matter, but I want to suggest as we go along, because of the issues that are being raised, that we should consider it as a serious possibility that the applicant himself might be confusing himself as to how many applications did he in fact do. What is clear is that he has spoken to several people who took statements from him regarding the amnesty application or amnesty applications and if one further goes through the bundle, with reference to this Mr Pearce, according to the applicant he was in the company of a certain lawyer. There is in the bundle an affidavit that was indeed compiled, if one is to refer to page 86, by a certain lawyer, who appears to be Adv Z L Madasa and it would appear to me that this is the other instance that the applicant is actually referring to when Mr Madasa actually made this statement. It appears to me he was then with this Mr Pearce, if one has regard to the contents of that statement. I am merely saying that perhaps the best time to have said these things would have been at the end of the application, but now that the issues have been raised pertinently, its ...(indistinct) that I want to place before us. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you. Yes, you haven't said anything. Do you wish to say anything? MR RICHARD Yes, I have left messages for Mr Pigot to contact us and there's another lawyer's name a Mr Mbanda, but I will find further details as the day goes on. ADV BOSMAN Chairperson, may I just suggest that if Mr Mapoma should speak to Mr Pigot, is just to ask him whether he hadn't taken statements in relation to the HRV Hearings, because I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that there was mention of his name in the HRV Hearings. (end of tape) MR MAPOMA ...the Section 29 Hearing is a proceeding that took place during the HRV era, prior to Amnesty Committee and in fact during the procession of this amnesty application Mr Pearce Hugo had already left the TRC by then. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Swanepoel, if you can continue with your cross-examination. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairperson. Mr Tsotsetse, I'd like to finish up this line of examination now, but I just want to be absolutely clear of a few aspects. You raised the issue of an interpreter possibly making a mistake in your cross-examination shortly before the adjournment, but you also gave evidence that you did not work through an interpreter when you deposed to the statement that Mr Bellingan took from you, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL You spoke English to Mr Bellingan who wrote down what you said in English, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL And you can read and understand English, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL And even though you didn't sign at the bottom of page 79 of the bundle, your name has been written by yourself several other places on the relevant, what appears to be affidavits, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL Wouldn't you then consider it reckless if you can understand the language, you can read it, not to read the statement that were taken down while you dictated them? MR TSOTSETSE I can say I trusted Pearce. After writing, he would read out to me. This application form, we did not have enough time to read it after writing it, I just took it and gave it to the police in prison and I did not read the statement thereafter. MR SWANEPOEL With all due respect, Mr Tsotsetse, this is your amnesty application. You want amnesty for certain crimes. How can you not have time to read your statement? MR TSOTSETSE As I'm explaining, because of the situation and I knew nothing about the TRC process and we were in a hurry because Mr Pearce was telling me that the deadline was to come soon, therefore I had to forward the application before the deadline. I trusted him, that is why I did not give myself a chance to read the statement. MR SWANEPOEL Now, the oath has been administered to you this morning and at the previous hearing by the Honourable Chairperson, do you remember that? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL And do you understand the importance of the oath being administered to you and you giving evidence under oath? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I understand the significance. MR SWANEPOEL Now, do you, or were you present when the stamps which appear on pages 80 and 74 of the bundle were brought, or effected on these papers? Pages 74 and 80. MR TSOTSETSE No, I know nothing about the stamps. MR SWANEPOEL Were you not present when they were effected, or can't you remember being present when they were effected? MR TSOTSETSE No, I cannot remember seeing anyone affixing the stamp on the paper. MR SWANEPOEL If you say you can't remember, do you mean it might have happened, or it didn't happen in your presence? MR TSOTSETSE I was not present. MR SWANEPOEL Alright. Now you were present at the previous hearing when Mr Zimu gave evidence, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON He doesn't have to answer it, we know he was there, but his condition wasn't very good, so perhaps you can carry on. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairperson. Can you remember the evidence of Mr Zimu at the previous occasion when this Committee sat on Mr Zimu's amnesty application? Can you recall his evidence? MR TSOTSETSE During that time, I couldn't sit there and listen because I was very sick, I had to go back to prison. MR SWANEPOEL Alright. Now you say that you attended a meeting at the Kuthuza hostel where the assassination of Sam Nduli was discussed, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL And when was that? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember the date, but it was in 1991. MR SWANEPOEL Was it early in 1991 or in which month, can you remember? MR TSOTSETSE No, I cannot remember. MR SWANEPOEL And who all was present at that meeting? MR TSOTSETSE The people who were present there were Msomi, the one that I referred to as Tereblanche. ...(indistinct) was also there. Mafulela and Obed were also there. I cannot remember the other people because at that time I didn't know them very well, but it was quite a large amount. MR SWANEPOEL And what exactly was discussed? Was the way in which Mr Nduli would be killed discussed? Were the names of the people who would carry out the deed mentioned? Was a plan discussed, how he would be ambushed? Could you enlighten us? MR TSOTSETSE I can say the reason for us to attend the meeting, it's because they needed the cars and from the way that they were discussing it looked like we were supposed to be present and Themba Zimu was arrested during that process, therefore I was forced to go and steal this car, but I knew very well that I was supposed to be present during the killing. When I brought the car, they decided to say I'm a tsotsi, a township boy, I'm going to commit a lot of mistakes and then I was removed from the group but when they left I was present. MR SWANEPOEL Alright but this particular meeting was during 1991, you are sure of that? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I can say I am sure about that. MR SWANEPOEL And was it at that meeting that you were instructed to go and steal cars that should be used in the murder of Sam Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE The stealing of the car, I got that information, but I didn't know that the cars were going to be used in killing Sam Nduli, but when the meeting was held I already knew that we were supposed to get two cars, but during the meeting I got to know that these cars were going to be used in the killing. MR SWANEPOEL When were you first instructed to go and steal the two cars that were subsequently to be used in Sam Nduli's killing? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember the date or the month, but it was in 1991. CHAIRPERSON Was it at that meeting that you've spoken about, or was it before or after that meeting? MR TSOTSETSE Sam Nduli subject was not only held one day only. If I'm not mistaken, about three meetings or gatherings it was discussed. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed Mr Swanepoel, these meetings, what were they, Mr Tsotsetse, were they like public meetings? A whole crowd of people like are in this room now, or was it a group of people sitting talking amongst themselves? MR TSOTSETSE It was not a public meeting, it was just a separate meeting for a certain group of people, a few members. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairman. Now let me just try to get the order of events correct. The meeting at Kuthuza Hostel which you gave evidence of in chief. Was that the first of the series of meetings that you just described, or the second or the third? MR TSOTSETSE To me it was the very first meeting to attend, I don't know before how many meetings were there but for me it was the very first time to attend such a meeting. MR SWANEPOEL Alright, so that was the first meeting you attended that Sam Nduli's murder was discussed, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL And that was during 1991, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON We've had that Mr Swanepoel, if we keep getting it, we'll be here forever. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairperson. Now, how long before Sam Nduli's murder was that? A month? A few months? Quite long time? MR TSOTSETSE There was another meeting when Themba was arrested, where I was told that I should go and steal the cars, but I cannot say that was a meeting because I found Mafulela Mlaba, Obed, Tereblanche, those were the three people who told me that I should go and steal a car. MR SWANEPOEL So, when you say, let me just understand this correctly. After the meeting at Kuthuza Hostel, that is not the meeting at which you were instructed to go and steal the car, is that your evidence now? MR TSOTSETSE I was told in that meeting. CHAIRPERSON My understanding is that the first meeting they were told they'll need cars and it was meant to be Themba Zimu and him to steal them and then thereafter Themba got arrested and then he was told he'd better do it himself. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairperson. So, let me just read to you from Mr Zimu's evidence. He says he was sent to jail in August 1991 in response to a question at the previous hearing, is that your recollection as well? From August 1991 to August 1992. MR TSOTSETSE I don't know anything about the date of his arrest and how much time did he spend in jail. I know nothing about that. MR SWANEPOEL Alright, but is your evidence that you actually went to steal the cars after he was arrested and sent to jail? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL And did you go alone or were you accompanied by anybody and if so, whom? MR TSOTSETSE I was with Mafika. MR SWANEPOEL Alright, now Mr Zimu under cross-examination gave evidence as follows: He was asked "And did you indeed steal two cars for that purpose? Is that correct?" And his answer is: "That is correct." And then the question was: "Were you alone when you stole those cars?" And he said: "Yes, I was alone." So at the previous hearing Mr Zimu gave evidence that he went alone to steal those two cars and now I understand your evidence to be that you went alone to steal those cars. What is the situation? MR TSOTSETSE I know nothing about what Zimu is saying because I remember when I was in Boksburg, Mr Pearce took me to point out the places where I took those cars and I went to Alberton and then I pointed out the places to him. MR SWANEPOEL Did Mr Zimu lie when he said that he went alone to steal the two cars used for the killing of Sam Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot say he was lying, or he is lying because Themba, the person would be at the taxi rank and sometimes he would not be there, but what I can remember is that Themba brought a car, a Cressida and I don't know what happened to that Cressida. That was just before his arrest. MR SWANEPOEL And then he was further asked "Alright. Can you remember when those cars were stolen?" referring specifically to the two cars that were used in the killing of Sam Nduli and he said: "It was in 1990, even though I cannot recall the month." What do you say to that? MR TSOTSETSE No, I know nothing about that. MR SWANEPOEL Do you recall giving evidence under oath in the Section 29 inquiry that was held pertaining to this murder of Sam Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE Will you please repeat your question, Sir? MR SWANEPOEL Do you recall giving evidence in a Section 29 inquiry that was held pertaining to the murder of Sam Nduli? CHAIRPERSON A Section 29 hearing is a hearing before the TRC. MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I can still recall. MR SWANEPOEL If I might refer to bundle 2, page 137. Now at that stage one Ms Sealy was the Evidence Leader and my apologies, page 136 at the bottom, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I see - I think it was referred to previously. MR SWANEPOEL Now this evidence was canvassed with Mr Zimu under his cross-examination as well and I want your comment on this, you give evidence there at the bottom of page 136 of a meeting at Mzizi's home where the murder of Sam Nduli was discussed and then over on page 137, the first question as to you is "What was decided at that meeting? What did you discuss? Did you discuss the way you were going to kill Mr Nduli? What was discussed at the meeting?" And your answer was: "What they did, what we learned was that on a Sunday we should go and steal two vehicles, so that by sunset Sam Nduli must have been killed. And they explained to us, I was also present when it was discussed that Mr Nduli should be killed and they said they will come up with means to make sure that he is found wherever he is and they were going to explain to us how to get hold of him." And then the next question is: "Was it immediately after this that you are...(intervention) INTERPRETER Chairperson, may we request that the Honourable Swanepoel speaks a bit slower? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, yes, if you could just go a bit slower so that the translators can keep abreast with you Mr Swanepoel. MR SWANEPOEL My apologies. And then the next question is "Was it immediately after this meeting that you and Mr Zimu went to steal two cars?" And you answered: "Yes, that is correct." What do you say to that? MR TSOTSETSE If my memory serves me correctly, I made mention of this but I cannot remember including Zimu's name. CHAIRPERSON You did include the name Mr Tsotsetse, because it's here, this is a record of the proceedings and it's not the sort of typing error that would occur where another person's name is included, when that person's name wasn't mentioned. They spell it incorrectly, but I'm sure it's Mr Zimu rather than Zimo. MR TSOTSETSE Will you please repeat your question, Sir? CHAIRPERSON I think the question is, when you gave evidence here, now today, you said that you went to steal the two cars after the arrest of Mr Zimu and you went with one Marika and you stole the Toyota and then later you stole the van. When you gave evidence before the TRC when they were having the Section 29 hearing, which has been referred to by Mr Swanepoel on page 137 of volume 2, you say that you, together with Mr Zimu, went and stole 2 vehicles. It's different to what you say today. Now Mr Swanepoel is asking you, can you explain this difference? Why do you say one thing at the Section 29 hearing and another thing today? MR TSOTSETSE What I wanted to explain was the fact that myself and Themba Nduli were the persons who were supposed to go and steal the cars, that is what I was trying to explain there. It's not that I went with him to steal the cars. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairperson. Well, the questions go on from there. Ms Sealy specifically referred to Mr Zimu and then she asked you "Can you explain where you stole the cars and what the purpose was for stealing those cars?" And you answered: "We stole the cars in Alberton." MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL So why do you refer to Mr Zimu again as being present when you stole the cars? MR TSOTSETSE As I've explained before, I was trying to explain that myself and Themba Zimu were supposed to go and steal the cars but I did not say that I even surely went there with Themba. MR SWANEPOEL Yes, now how long before the assassination of Mr Nduli did you steal the cars? MR TSOTSETSE If I'm not mistaken I think it was only a day in between then he was killed. MR SWANEPOEL And which cars were stolen, what were the makes of those two cars? MR TSOTSETSE It was a white Toyota Corolla and a white Toyota Hi-Lux. MR SWANEPOEL At the bottom of page 138 of bundle 2 you are asked the question by Ms Sealy "Was this on the day that Sam Nduli was assassinated?" and your answer is: "When guns and the vehicles were made available, yes, Sam Nduli died on that particular day." Is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE I'll explain like this. By Sunday morning the cars were there. The first car came on a Saturday during the day and another one was there in the evening, Saturday and by Sunday morning the cars were available, that is why I say it was only a day in between. MR SWANEPOEL Now at the previous hearing, Mr Zimu was confronted by the evidence that was just held out to you and after that evidence was read to him, he said "No, I did not go with Thulani Mlaba, I went alone." That was to steal the cars. What do you say to that? MR TSOTSETSE I am still maintaining that I was never with Themba Zimu, I went there with somebody else, not Themba Zimu. MR SWANEPOEL Alright. Now at page 149 of bundle 2 ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about the typed 149 or the one that's written in marker pen? MR SWANEPOEL The paginated papers, Chairperson. Page 149 of the paginated papers. CHAIRPERSON It's 148 of the statement. MR SWANEPOEL Of the typed ... You were asked by Mr Ndolosi during the Section 29 inquiry "On the day of Sam Nduli's assassination, you said to us that you were left behind. How did it all come about that you were left behind whilst other people were going, especially knowing you were a loyal member of the gang as well?" And then over on page 150, you answer that question and then the next question is: "You also said here that you remained behind. Who else remained behind with you?" That was on the day of Sam Nduli's murder and your answer is: "Themba Zimu was also not involved. I think it was Themba and myself only." Is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE There was someone else whose name was Thembinkosi and we used to refer to him as Themba. I was referring to that Thembinkosi, not Themba Zimu. CHAIRPERSON It says here Themba Zimu, it doesn't just say Themba. Your answer is recorded as follows "Themba Zimu was not involved. I think it was Themba and myself only." Well. MR TSOTSETSE What I remember very well, I said Themba was not there. Themba Zimu was arrested at that time. There was only Thembinkosi. Themba Zimu was not in that group of people. MR SWANEPOEL Then why did you say Themba Zimu? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember saying anything about Themba Zimu to that effect, I was talking about Thembinkosi. MR SWANEPOEL Well you see, Mr Tsotsetse, the Committee is now confronted with three versions as to how it came about that the cars were stolen that were used during Sam Nduli's assassination and also a different version as to who was present on the day that the assassination took place. Can you explain that? MR TSOTSETSE Please repeat your question. MR SWANEPOEL Mr Zimu gave evidence to this Committee that he went alone during 1990 to steal the cars to be used in Sam Nduli's assassination. You gave evidence that you went alone. CHAIRPERSON He said he went with Mafika. MR SWANEPOEL As it pleases Mr Chairperson. That you went without Mr Zimu during September 1991 to steal the two cars in question and you gave evidence that you went with Mr Zimu during September 1991 to steal the two cars in question, so there are three different versions. Can you explain that? MR TSOTSETSE I have already explained that Themba was also involved in stealing the cars, but I don't know what happened to the car that he stole, but the cars that were used are the cars that I brought myself and I handed them over to Tereblanche. MR SWANEPOEL If you could just bear with me a moment Mr Chairman, I just want to - where is the evidence of the previous - and why is it that you now say that Mr Zimu did not remain behind with you on the day of the assassination of Mr Nduli but that you gave evidence to that effect earlier? MR TSOTSETSE I do not understand your question Sir. CHAIRPERSON He's already explained. It's mainly a question of argument, because when you asked him this earlier, although you referred to the section where he said Themba Zimu, he said he was referring to Thembinkosi. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chairperson. Now how many meetings did you attend that Sam Nduli's murder was discussed at? MR TSOTSETSE I said there were three meetings that I know about. CHAIRPERSON If you could just please listen to the question Mr Mlaba. How many meetings did you attend, not that what you know about, did you attend where the death of Mr Nduli was discussed? You yourself, how many were you present at? MR TSOTSETSE The first meeting was one that was held in Kuthuza and the second one is when I met with Mr Mafulela, when I was instructed to go and steal the car. The last meeting was held in Mzizi's house, where they emphasised that there is a need for cars. MR SWANEPOEL At any of those meetings, was the method of killing Mr Nduli ever discussed? Did you know how it was going to be done? MR TSOTSETSE All I knew was that they were going to use his girlfriend, so as to get hold of him. MR SWANEPOEL Did you know who was going to commit the murders? MR TSOTSETSE No, I did not know who was going to putt the trigger. MR SWANEPOEL Did you know who was going to go to the scene on the day of the assassination? MR TSOTSETSE I did not know clearly as to who were going to be involved. MR SWANEPOEL Well, were any instructions given as to who should go and kill Mr Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE Please repeat your question. MR SWANEPOEL Were any instructions given in your presence to any person as to who should go and kill Mr Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE No, I did not know who was going to pull the trigger but I believed that as we were there, those people were the people who were gong to commit the murder, but I did not know actually who was going to do the actual killing. MR SWANEPOEL Now, was the date of the killing discussed? MR TSOTSETSE No, I only remember that they said the stolen cars should be used the following day, but I knew nothing about the date. MR SWANEPOEL And was the method of the killing discussed? MR TSOTSETSE All I can remember was that they were going to use his girlfriend in order to get hold of him, but I did not know where he was going to be found, otherwise I heard that his girlfriend was going to be used. MR SWANEPOEL Mr Chairperson, I am in possession of a copy of a part of a transcript of what appears to be evidence in front of the Goldstone Commission, pertaining to the murder of Sam Nduli. Now, I unfortunately didn't make copies yet. I will do so in due course, if you would permit me to question. CHAIRPERSON Evidence by whom? MR SWANEPOEL One August Xhosa, who says he was an eye witness to the killing of Mr Nduli. CHAIRPERSON I don't know, I mean, how's it going to help us? What can this witness say to that? I mean he wasn't present when that evidence was given. He wasn't given an opportunity to test it. MR SWANEPOEL The part of the evidence that I would like to canvass with him is that Mr Xhosa says that a blue Chev vehicle was used in the killing of Mr Nduli and whether this witness knows about the existence of such a vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Ask him that. Ask him if he knows anything about a blue Chev. MR SWANEPOEL Let me just ask you this. On the day of the murder of Mr Nduli, what happened with the vehicles that you stole? MR TSOTSETSE They came in the morning, the van and the private car and a Honda Ballade. The people left driving in those cars. CHAIRPERSON They left in the Toyota vehicle sedan that you stole and the Hi-Lux that you stole plus you say a Honda Ballade? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. Three cars were used. MR SWANEPOEL Do you know about the existence of a powder blue Chev that according to an eye witness was used in the killing of Sam Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE No, I know nothing about that car. MR SWANEPOEL Now, can you tell the Committee who specifically gave the instruction that Sam Nduli be killed, which person? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot say. There was Mr Mzizi Mafulela, Albert and Tereblanche, they were talking all at once. I cannot say who specifically issued the instructions or took the decision. MR SWANEPOEL And at which particular meeting that you attended was that discussion, or that instruction issued, or that decision made? MR TSOTSETSE The first meeting. MR SWANEPOEL And where was that meeting? CHAIRPERSON We know, it was at the Hostel. MR SWANEPOEL Now Mr Zimu testified that he attended the meeting at the house of Mr Mzizi, can you recall that testimony? CHAIRPERSON He also said he went to a meeting at the house of Mr Mzizi. MR SWANEPOEL I just want to establish that Mr Chairperson. Can you recall attending a meeting at the house of Mr Mzizi, where Mr Zimu was present? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I can remember that. MR SWANEPOEL And when was that? MR TSOTSETSE: I cannot say, I cannot remember the date. MR SWANEPOEL Can you remember during which year it was? MR TSOTSETSE If my memory serves me correctly, I think it was in 1991. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Swanepoel, can you just advise, when was Mr Nduli in fact killed? MR SWANEPOEL On the 29th of September 1991, if my memory serves me correctly, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SWANEPOEL Now, on page 136 of bundle 2, the paginated 136, at the bottom of the page, your evidence in the Section 29 inquiry is as follows "People who were plotting the assassination, I would say the meeting was held at Abraham Mzizi's home and Abraham Mzizi was present as well as Gert Mzizi and Albert Mlaba was present as well." And then three-quarters down the page on page 137, Ms Sealy asked you: "Was it immediately after this meeting that you and Mr Zimu went to steal two cars?" And you answer: "Yes, that is correct." Was that your evidence? MR PADI Excuse me, Mr Chair, this evidence has already been canvassed by Mr Swanepoel. CHAIRPERSON Well, he's just asking, was the car - is it correct that it was after the meeting, shortly, immediately after the meeting that was held in Mzizi's house, that the cars were stolen. MR TSOTSETSE The car that I stole, that was after the meeting, this is when I was told that the following day the cars should be there. MR SWANEPOEL Now was this the meeting that you attended at Mzizi's house that Mr Zimu was present as well? MR TSOTSETSE I think it was the meeting that I attended where Themba was present, it was the one that took place at Mzizi's house. MR SWANEPOEL But do I understand your evidence to be that the assassination of Mr Nduli was already planned long before this at the meeting that was held at the hostel? CHAIRPERSON He didn't go so far as to say planned it, it was discussed and he said it was first raised at the first meeting he attended, it was discussed. He said he wasn't aware of any plans. You asked him about what the method was, he said he didn't know. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Chair. Now this meeting after which you went to steal the cars, how long before the assassination was that? CHAIRPERSON That's the meeting at Mzizi's house. MR TSOTSETSE As I'm saying, I was told on this particular date, bring the cars the following day. MR SWANEPOEL So would you say this was more than a week before the assassination, or less than a week before the assassination? MR TSOTSETSE There's no week in between today and tomorrow. If I'm talking to a person today and then the person would refer me to tomorrow, I think it's a matter of hours, there's no week between. MR SWANEPOEL And you say Mr Zimu was present at this meeting. CHAIRPERSON He said so, Mr Swanepoel, you don't have to keep asking the same questions and stressing it. We won't forget and it will be in the record. MR SWANEPOEL Now, Mr Zimu's evidence is that he was arrested during August 1991. Can you say whether that is correct or not? MR TSOTSETSE Which one are you talking about? Which one is true or not? MR SWANEPOEL Well, Mr Zimu's evidence is that he was arrested during August 1991 and he served 12 months prison sentence, until August 1992. Can you confirm that, or do you deny that? CHAIRPERSON Well was he, I'm just asking, was he detained from his arrest because very often people get arrested and then they get released on bail and then they were tried, I don't know what - you know the fact that you're arrested doesn't mean that you're out of action continuously from the time of your arrest to the time of your release from jail, after you've been sentenced. MR SWANEPOEL In response to a question "How long were you in jail?" Mr Zimu gave evidence: "I was sentenced in August and released in 1992 in August. I spent 12 months in prison." CHAIRPERSON So that means - it's better to talk about being sentenced rather than actually arrested. Mr Tsotsetse, Mr Zimu said that he was in jail from August 1991 through to August 1992. You say now that he was present at the meeting that was held at the house of Mr Mzizi and that the following day cars were stolen and Mr Nduli was then murdered shortly thereafter and we also know that Mr Nduli was in fact murdered at the end of September 1991, which means that on what you are saying, Themba Zimu couldn't have been at the meeting at Mzizi's house as he would have been in jail at that time. What do you have to say about that? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot say anything about his arrest because I know nothing about it, but all I know is that I remember sitting with him in Mr Mzizi's house. MR SWANEPOEL Mr Tsotsetse you gave evidence to the effect that Mr Zimu did not stay behind with you on the day of Sam Nduli's murder because he was in jail, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Please repeat the question. MR SWANEPOEL You gave evidence now under cross-examination to the effect that Themba Zimu did not remain behind with you on the day of Mr Nduli's killing, because he was in jail, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL Now how did he attend a meeting with you the day before that at Mr Mzizi's house? MR TSOTSETSE I knew Themba through IFP and Mafulela. On this particular day that I'm talking about when it was discussed at a meeting that cars should be arranged, Themba was present at that meeting in Mr Mzizi's house. MR SWANEPOEL Yes, if it becomes necessary, Mr and Mrs Mzizi will deny ever being present at a meeting where the murder of Sam Nduli was discussed, what do you say to that? MR TSOTSETSE If they dispute that, I won't say anything but their consciences are telling them that they were present there. I cannot just fabricate that story but their consciences know very well that they know something about Sam Nduli's death. MR SWANEPOEL If necessary, Mr and Mrs Mzizi will deny that there was ever a meeting at their house where the murder of Sam Nduli was discussed or where either you or Mr Zimu were present. What do you say to that? MR TSOTSETSE If they dispute that, there's nothing that I can do, but they know very well that they were there and they are implicated in Sam Nduli's death. MR SWANEPOEL And if necessary Mafulela will deny ever attending a meeting where the assassination of Sam Nduli was discussed with you, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE I'm saying the same thing, that he knows very well that he was present in that meeting where Sam Nduli was the subject. If - not unless perhaps they are talking about a meeting as a meeting with a large number of people, but they were in a group who was discussing that Sam Nduli should be killed. MR SWANEPOEL I have no further questions for the time being. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Swanepoel. Ms van der Westhuizen, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Tsotsetse, during this period of the Ngema massacre as well as when the killing of Sam Nduli happened, what was the situation in the township and more in particular, the situation between the ANC and the IFP, from your experience? MR TSOTSETSE During those days it was very tense in the townships and I remember very well that there was a conflict between IFP and ANC. As, I think, the first hostel was already demolished at the time. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Did you yourself reside in a hostel during that period? MR TSOTSETSE No. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And your own feelings regarding the conflict, how did you experience ANC supporters or members? Did you regard them as your enemy? How did you feel towards them? MR TSOTSETSE I was staying in Natalspruit. My home is in Natalspruit. I had no problem with ANC people because I grew up in the township. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You say you had no problem with ANC people in the township, why ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He said in Natalspruit. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN In Natalspruit, but in general, did you at no stage feel that the ANC members or supporters, whether it's now in Natalspruit or on the East Rand, that they were your enemies? MR TSOTSETSE No, they were never my enemies. The people who made the township people to be my enemies, it was Mafulela and Khumalo. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN If you personally did not regard ANC supporters or members as your enemies, why do you say this attack on the Ngema Tavern was committed with a political objective? What do you see being your political motivation for taking part in that attack? MR TSOTSETSE What happened in Ngema Section was not my initiative and I was told by somebody and I had no other option but I had to go ahead. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now there's a reference made throughout this hearing of the Khumalo gang. Were you a member of any gang of a sort? MR TSOTSETSE I was never a member of the Khumalo gang. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now these incidents that you're applying for amnesty for, would you say that these incidents where you were involved, I'm referring to the Ngema Tavern as well as conspiracy of Sam Nduli's death, the killing of people on the taxis as well as eviction of people from their houses, do you say that you committed these acts with any political objective in mind? MR TSOTSETSE In all what you have mentioned, there's nothing that was ever my initiative or I took a decision about. Mafulela and Mzizi were the people who made it possible for the people from Natalspruit to hate me because during these conflicts they would come and fetch me from my home and I was portrayed as a person who had a double agenda, therefore I couldn't stay comfortably at my home, I was forced to go to their side. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Were you ever a member of the so-called Mogadi Gang? CHAIRPERSON If you could just repeat that? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Were you ever a member a member of the so-called Mogadi Gang? MR TSOTSETSE No. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Do you know about the Mogadi Gang? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I know Mogadi himself, but I don't know the others. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now you mentioned in your latest statement that was read into the record today that when you met Mr Khumalo, that you were together with a certain Mr Mogadi. Was that Mr Mogadi a member of the Mogadi Gang? Would you know? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I'd like to explain this so you may be enlightened. You see, there is this tendency that when you are in a shebeen or in some tavern of some kind and we are sitting and drinking together, there would be such occasions that we would have Mogadi in our company in such fashion, so we will be just sitting down and having fun and drinking. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now these incidents that you're applying for amnesty for, we know that Mr Chamane was involved in the Ngema Tavern massacre. The other incidents that ...(intervention) INTERPRETER In what massacre please? I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON Ngema Tavern. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Ngema Tavern massacre. Now I want you to further tell this Committee whether Mr Chamane was involved in the other incidents that you're applying for amnesty for? MR TSOTSETSE Well, the one thing I will say is that Zwile, one person was always in the kombi together with Khumalo or Mzwakhe's son and they people who will patrol around the location and even at that particular time when they will get to Ngema when I had not known Khumalo, I think Zwile was there as well, I will say so. CHAIRPERSON But what Ms van der Westhuizen is asking you for instance, was Mr Chamane involved in the murder of Norman Sithole at all or was he involved in the murder of Mr Nduli, or was he involved in these incidents where you would pretend that you were ANC taxis and take passengers and take them to the hostel to be killed, or was he involved in the incidents where you told people to get out of their houses and leave the area? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That's what she wants to know. MR TSOTSETSE In my killing, Norman Zwile was not there present, but with the Sam Nduli incident he was present and the others, I may say that he would be present and in other ones he would not be present, but in this particular one of the taxi, Zwile was a prisoner awaiting trial. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Mr Tsotsetse, it's a very serious thing to implicate a person in the involvement of a criminal activity where he is actually not involved, therefore I want you to explain exactly what was Mr Chamane's role, according to you, in the killing of Sam Nduli. MR TSOTSETSE You see I will not saw Zwile had done this because I was not there when Sam Nduli was captured, I wasn't there, I will not know all the intricacies relating to that but one thing I know is that he was there from the hostel. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN I'm afraid I do not understand your evidence. What do you mean he was there from the hostel? What are you referring to? Where was Mr Chamane? MR TSOTSETSE When they were leaving to go and kill, he was there. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Are you saying that he left together with the people from the hostel who went out to kill Mr Sam Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that's what I'm saying. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Well, I will put it to you that Mr Chamane denies that he went with to kill Mr Sam Nduli. He only heard of Mr Nduli's death after he was already killed. Do you have any comment on that? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I have no knowledge of that and I would like to dispute that as well. Well, he's trying to cover his side. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Mr Tsotsetse now what was his further involvement in Sam Nduli's death, if any? MR TSOTSETSE Please may you repeat your question. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You say that he was together with the people who left to kill Sam Nduli. Was he involved in anything else regarding Sam Nduli's death, for instance stealing cars, or anything? MR TSOTSETSE Well, regarding the stealing of cars, he would not participate, but in meetings he would be there, I would see him. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Which meetings are you referring to? MR TSOTSETSE Like the one at Mzizi's house, I saw him. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Did he speak at that meeting? MR TSOTSETSE No, only the elderly ones spoke. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now you referred, or you said that Sam Nduli's girlfriend was going to be used in the killing of Nduli. Do you know the name of Sam's girlfriend who was going to be used? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I don't know if she's the one I remember, but it will seem it's Gugu or Gogo, between the two, Gugu or Gogo. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Do you know a surname perhaps? MR TSOTSETSE No. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now do you know whether this plan was actually executed whether Gugu was indeed used? MR TSOTSETSE That much I don't know, if the very plan was executed or not. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now do you have any knowledge what happened to this girlfriend Gugu that was referred to, whether she was killed, or do you have any knowledge? MR TSOTSETSE Well what I really do have is the fact that she was killed by the IFP. As to how and when and why, I don't know, but I just heard that. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN But Mr Tsotsetse isn't it true that you also implicated Mr Chamane in the killing of Gugu Mzizi? MR TSOTSETSE I don't remember saying Zwile killed Gugu. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Is it possible that you said that he took part in the killing of Gugu? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I don't recall any instance where I alluded to the fact that Zwile had killed Gugu. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Mr Tsotsetse, I will indeed show to you that you said that Mr Chamane is one of Gugu's killers and I will demonstrate it, it's going to take some time and I'm going to do this to demonstrate that you will involve Mr Chamane in as many matters as you can. Do you remember making a warning statement regarding the death of Sam Nduli? CHAIRPERSON Was this to the police? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN That is to the police and maybe to assist you further, the investigating officer was a Namela. CHAIRPERSON Do you remember making a statement to the police, Mr Tsotsetse, concerning the death of Mr Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I do remember. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, I'm just going to read a paragraph from this statement before going in too much detail and I just want your comment whether you can remember having said this and that is the following, I'll read it to you "On the same Sunday I heard that Sam Nduli has been killed. One day the same group suggested that Gugu Mzizi should be killed before revealing information about the death of Sam Nduli. She was also killed. One of the hit men is Zwile." Can you recall having said that? MR TSOTSETSE The one thing I do recall is that Zwile is the person who also was involved in the killing, but I only heard about the killing of Gugu in prison. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Ms van der Westhuizen, what is the date of that statement? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, the date of the statement is the 12th of December 1996 and it was taken from, well he's referred to as Thulani Mlaba at the Boksburg Prison and it's a warning statement in respect of the murder of Sam Nduli. CHAIRPERSON I just wanted the date, just for reference purposes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Why do you say that Mr Chamane was involved in that? What is your reason for saying that he was involved in that death? MR TSOTSETSE Well, you've alluded to two deaths. I don't know which one now you're referring to. CHAIRPERSON She's referring to the death of either Dudu or Gugu, the girlfriend of Mr Nduli. MR TSOTSETSE Well, as I said I did not talk about Zwile that he had killed Gugu but that is the information I gathered in prison, but I did not have the details as I was already locked up in prison, not a free man. CHAIRPERSON So you were making a statement about things you didn't know, you were basing what you were saying in the statement on things that you had heard, but you didn't know yourself, is that what you're saying? MR TSOTSETSE Well, if I remember well, we did not quite understand each other, myself and the Sergeant who was taking the statement, because if I remember well, we did not even bring closure to the discussion we had. Those were the things also which brought some conflict between myself and him because I also went to the other police who was there to tell him that the things that he is furnishing to me or advising to me, I had no knowledge of. CHAIRPERSON Just let's get this clear now, Mr Tsotsetse, are you saying now that you've got no knowledge that Mr Chamane played any role in the killing of Mr Nduli's girlfriend, personal knowledge? You haven't got any first-hand knowledge that he played a role in the killing of Gugu? MR TSOTSETSE Well, let me ask, are we talking about Sam Nduli or Gugu here? CHAIRPERSON We're talking about Gugu. MR TSOTSETSE Well, I hear you referring now to Sam, Your Honour. CHAIRPERSON I said the girlfriend of Sam Nduli, Gugu. MR TSOTSETSE Well, as I explained about the death of Gugu, I heard that when I was in prison as to who killed her, I only heard that it was IFP people. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I think it's quite clear that he's only heard of who was involved, it's just hearsay. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, if you could just give me a moment, I just wanted to use something. Now you testified that this specific - sorry before I move on, I just want to put it to you that Mr Chamane could not have been involved in the killing of Gugu Mzizi since she died on the 18th of April 1994 at which time Mr Chamane was already in prison. Do you have any comment on that? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I will not refute that because I was also in prison. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now earlier on you were asked about the death of a certain Happy and there was mention made of a Happy Thokoza and I know that you said that you were not involved with this specific incident. I just want to ask you, could this surname, if you know at all, of Happy have been Happy Mbele? MR TSOTSETSE Well, well then call her Happy Mbele, I only heard after her death or after Happy's death, I knew Happy as Happy before the death because he was one person in the location who was working for the firms nearby. CHAIRPERSON So when you talk about the death of Happy, you're talking about Happy Mbele? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, Mr Tsotsetse, do you remember that at a certain stage the TRC requested certain particulars or they asked you certain questions to your application for amnesty, can you remember that? MR TSOTSETSE Well, may I explain even further, I think I've been questioned by TRC quite a number of times. Are you referring to the one we are about today or ...? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Let me make it clear to you, on the 13th of November 1998, the Amnesty Committee sent you a written request for further particulars in which they asked you further information relating to your amnesty application which was thereafter responded to in writing. Can you remember that you replied in writing to certain questions? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I do remember that. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Did you yourself write down the answers to the questions? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, I also do not have copies of this request as well as reply available. It might not be necessary to make such copies, I just would like to ascertain whether this is indeed the answer given by the specific applicant. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thanks and if you could make it available to any of the legal representatives if they wish to see it and if copies are required, then I'm sure Ashley can assist with that. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Tsotsetse, I want to show you a hand-written document and I want you to have a look at it and see whether there are indeed the answer that you wrote down and sent to the TRC. CHAIRPERSON Is that the answer that you wrote down, Mr Tsotsetse? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you. Now I want to specifically deal with the matter of Frank Happy Mbele. you were, in the first question you were requested to state - the question is "Were you assisted by any IFP members in carrying out these acts? Kindly supply the names of your co-accused for each offence that you committed." And then on the issue of Frank Happy Mbele, you state as follows: "Murder of Frank Happy Mbele in Thokoza in December 1992. I was assisted by the IFP members in carrying this act. My co-accused in the offence are the very people I have stated above, which were involved in the murder of Sam Nduli." Now I just want to read to you the names of the people you state who were involved in the murder of Sam Nduli. You say it was: "Oscar Msomi, Gertrude and Abraham Mzizi, Lucky Xhosa, Sabelo, Obed Radebe, Zwile Chamane, Mbhekiseni Khumalo, Mphikelele Khumalo and Nkunu." You say the very same people were together with you involved in the murder of Frank Happy Mbele. Why do you say these people were involved together with you if even not yourself was involved in this killing? MR TSOTSETSE Well, when I mentioned these names or these people, I wasn't necessarily mentioning the names of the people who partook, but those were the people who were quite important in the area with regards to the IFP, those were the people who had knowledge about the death of Happy. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Well Mr Tsotsetse I want to put it to you, you are implicating people in a very serious matter. It's the murder of a man, not knowing whether they were involved. You merely implicating them on your own version now because they were important people. Do you have any comment on that? MR TSOTSETSE Well, out of all the people, there's just no one I'm incriminating or implicating as such, but they know very well that they have idea or knowledge as to what we are talking about. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, regarding the murder of Sam Nduli, you were also asked "With whom did you conspire to murder Sam Nduli? Who planned the murder of Sam Nduli? Who else was involved in the murder of Sam Nduli? Who gave the orders to kill Sam Nduli?" And in your own handwriting, you give the following answer: "The murder of Sam Nduli was planned by Albert Mafulela Mlaba and Abraham Mzizi, Obed Radebe. Msomi Tereblanche was also involved. Gertrude Mzizi and Thembinkosi gave the orders. Now here you also mention Thembinkosi whereas you've never done this before. you've never mentioned him being involved in the killing of Sam Nduli at all. What is your comment on this? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I was not mistaken by so saying when I said Abraham Mzizi as well as the rest of the people you have mentioned. Thembinkosi, as for him I knew him through IFP. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Well, I put it again to you that you are merely implicating leaders of the IFP for reasons of your own. Thembinkosi was never mentioned before and this is the first time you mention him, specifically in relation to Sam Nduli's death. MR TSOTSETSE Well, I was trying, I was attempting to respond to your question as to Themba because I will even mention further that even the weapons that were being used, were given by him or were distributed by him, so I will not repudiate that or refute that in any way once you put it to me. Well, you are representing them, that is no wonder and it's not a surprise to me, but they know very well the truth as to this. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Mr Chamane, first of all, I want to inform you that I'm representing Mr Chamane, that is the person whom I'm representing before this Committee and I am going to put it to you that you are not answering my questions. You are mentioning in this statement that Thembinkosi also gave an order for the killing of Sam Nduli. Where did he give this order? MR TSOTSETSE Well, when I'm talking or mentioning about Thembinkosi, I was referring to the fact that he was there and he has knowledge about the fact of Sam Nduli because he was always in Thokoza, that is Thembinkosi, we could not go by without him getting there. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying, Mr Tsotsetse that you assume he must have known, rather than you know personally that he must have known or that he did know of the killing of Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE Well, when I say he knows, it's not just an assumption or whatever, but at the second meeting, when I was told that I have to go get vehicles, Thembinkosi was there and there are weapons or firearms that I took from his car. CHAIRPERSON That second meeting, you said that it was Mafulela, Msomi and I've got it here, there were three people who met you and it wasn't really a meeting. That's what you said. You said it was Mafulela, Msomi and that you actually just came across them. You said you had that first meeting at the hostel where it was decided to steal the two cars and then you said sometime thereafter you came across those three, I think it was three people, it was Mafulela, Msomi and one other and they mentioned to you that Themba Zimu is in jail, now you will have to steal the cars yourself and that wasn't really a meeting, you just happened to come across them, they told you that info. Now are you saying that Thembinkosi was there at that time? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I'm explaining here that Thembinkosi arrived as we were talking about that. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, it was: "Mafulela, Msomi and Nkunu told me to steal the car." MR TSOTSETSE Yes, those were the utterances of the three. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Mr Tsotsetse, now you're putting us in the picture when Mr Nkosi so-called got involved in this killing of Sam Nduli. What order did he give you regarding the killing of Sam Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE Well, he did not give any order to me. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, I want to put it to you, this is a demonstration, you will involve any leaders of the IFP in order to persuade this Committee to give you amnesty. What is your comment to that? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I'll reiterate the fact that you are representing Chamane and everything that I utter in this Commission is the truth and I won't say so much, I won't go more than this, but they know very well what I'm saying deep down in their hearts. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, I want to take you to the specific Ngema Tavern attack. You mention in your affidavit that you went to Angus to do some shopping. What did you go and buy at Angus? Did you buy beer on that day? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, we had gone to buy beer. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now after you had bought the beer, where did you go? MR TSOTSETSE Well, we went back where we were coming from. CHAIRPERSON Where was that? MR TSOTSETSE Well Mafulela was residing in different places, but we went to his house at Mazibuku Street and from there we went to the hostel. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, before I continue with this specific event, I see it's 1 o'clock. I do not know whether you would wish to take the adjournment at this point in time. CHAIRPERSON Is the lunch ready? Do you know, have you seen? Yes, I'm told it is. Yes, if that will be a convenient time, we'll take an adjournment. Can we resume at 25 to two? Will that be convenient? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We'll take half an hour. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Westhuizen. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you, Chairperson. THULANI TERRENCE TSOTSETSE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN (Cont) Mr Tsotsetse, it appears from your affidavit, Exhibit B, that you went to Mr Khumalo's house at approximately 6 o'clock. During that afternoon from 2 o'clock till 6 o'clock, did you consume any liquor? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I can say so, but I was not drunk. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN That is not at Mr Mafulela's house. Do you know if Mr Zimu who was present there, whether he consumed any liquor? MR TSOTSETSE He just left a parcel there with a child and we left, we didn't stay for a long time and we proceeded to the hostel. I am not sure whether Zimu had something to drink or not, but he was just sober as I know him. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now in your affidavit you state that Mr Khumalo, Mr Mbhekiseni Khumalo took you and pointed certain places out to you during that afternoon. Were you alone with Mr Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, it was only the two of us. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now you say that he said that he wanted to show you where the ANC comrades hang out and that they should be killed. Did you know yourself which places the ANC comrades used to frequent? MR TSOTSETSE I had no idea but that I only knew that in that particular area was the ANC terrain, it's only the ANC members who would be found there, but I didn't know anything about the places that they frequented. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN If you talk about the area, are you referring to Ngema Section? MR TSOTSETSE There are many different sections in Natalspruit, there's Ncala Section, Twala Section, Ngema. If I'm talking about the area, I'm talking about the Natalspruit. CHAIRPERSON But this area where the Ngema Tavern was, the one which you attacked, was that a predominantly ANC area? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now to how many places did he take you that afternoon? Was it only this one tavern, or were there some more places he'd pointed out to you? MR TSOTSETSE No, there were no other places. That was the only place. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN This Ngema Tavern where the shooting took place, have you perhaps been there at all before that night of the fatal shooting? MR TSOTSETSE To get inside the house, it was for the first time, but I used to visit Ngema, but in other places, not in that particular house. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN I just want to make sure. The first time you went to this specific tavern was that night of the shooting, the 22nd of January? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. It was not for the first time for me to visit Ngema, but it was for the very first time that I got inside that particular house. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now whilst you were driving around with Mr Khumalo, did he tell you what were you supposed to do there that night? MR TSOTSETSE He mentioned that we should kill the ANC people who used to gather there, that's what I knew. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Did he give you any reasons why you should kill these specific people, or attack that tavern? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I questioned him. He said that those were the comrades who killed his wife and I asked him again, because he's the one who instructed us to kill his wife, but he said that he knows very well that those were the comrades who killed his wife. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, did you have a close relationship with Mr Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE No. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Can you explain why he specifically took you with him on his rounds to point out houses on that particular afternoon? MR TSOTSETSE From my own thinking, a lot of things that were happening there, if they were talking about Natalspruit, as a person who was residing at Natalspruit they said it's easy for me to know Natalspruit very well and I can be able to point out places to the other people who did not reside in the area. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now taking you to a bit later that day, or that evening, when you returned to Mr Khumalo's house, when you arrived at the house, you said you went together with Mr Zimu as well as Thembinkosi and that when you arrived there you found a lot of people standing outside in groups. Now when you arrived there, the three of you, did you go inside the house, or did you remain outside? MR TSOTSETSE I never proceeded to the house inside. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now the group that was standing outside the house, what were they talking about? Can you remember the general conversation that took place there? MR TSOTSETSE It was a night vigil. I cannot go on listening to the different groups of people to hear what is it that they were saying, I just joined a group of people and started discussing because there were so many people moving around there. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now can you remember what your group, the group that you joined, what were you talking about? MR TSOTSETSE We just greeted them and we discussed, but I cannot remember the subject, but it was just a general discussion, nothing serious. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Didn't you talk about the death of Sabelo Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Didn't you tell some of the people in your group that Mr Khumalo pointed out the house where ANC people should be attacked during the day? MR TSOTSETSE No, I never mentioned that. Well, he told me about this, it was not something that was going to take place on that very same day, I just knew that it was just a house that would be attacked anytime, but not on that particular day of the night vigil. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now standing outside there, can you remember seeing Mr Chamane? MR TSOTSETSE I saw him when we were given the firearms. He came with Mzwakhe but I don't know where they were standing, but I just saw him coming to us. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Do you know a person by the name of Mondli? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Mr Chamane testified that he was standing together with his friend Mondli when you arrived. You therefore, I assume, cannot dispute that that is correct? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot say whether he was standing with him or not, but I just joined a group of people, that's all. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN But Mr Chamane was not in the group that you joined, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE No, he was not in that group. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You say in your statement that you were called to the back of the yard by Mzwakhe and that you left together with Jabo and Dume, is that correct? Do you confirm that? MR TSOTSETSE It was myself and Jabo and Themba and Thembinkosi. We left all of us. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN But when you left at first, Chamane was not amongst them, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, he was not there. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN In your statement you say that "Mbhekiseni told me that the house he showed me earlier that day was the house which we are supposed to attack." Now from your statement it is clear, and I want you to confirm it, that Mr Mbhekiseni was specifically talking to you. Is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE We were two at the time, but I think that was, it was obvious that he was directing to me. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, whilst you were standing at the back of the yard, can you say exactly at what point in time Mr Chamane arrived there in that group? Can you remember at all? MR TSOTSETSE He didn't take time. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Do you remember when he arrived, was it shortly after you, was it after Mr Mbhekiseni gave you the order? Can you estimate at all? MR TSOTSETSE Khumalo talked to me on our way to Kwesenye Hostel. he never mentioned anything in his yard but he just told me that the house that he pointed out to me during the day, he was supposed to go there, there were people he was supposed to kill on that particular day, on a Friday. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Just for clarification purposes, are you now saying that there in the back of the yard that evening, Mr Mbhekiseni did not tell you to go and attack Ngema Tavern? I'm talking about, not to confuse you, that evening standing outside Mr Khumalo's house. Did he not there tell you to go and attack the house, or tavern rather? MR TSOTSETSE He gave me the firearm and he told me that the house that he pointed out to me during the day, I was supposed to go to that particular house, otherwise I couldn't do anything if I was not given a firearm. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now Mr Chamane testified and I just want to put it to you that he did not hear any such order being given by Mr Khumalo. Do you confirm that it's possible that he maybe was not there at the time? MR TSOTSETSE I would like to pose a question to you. Was it possible for Zwile to take a firearm without being told where to go? Obviously he was going to ask what to do with the firearm. When Zwile was told to go with us and go to that particular house, because I'm the person who knew the place, he knew very well what was going to happen and where we were going. It was not only Ngema Section, the other people who were killed, the people in the Thokoza area, just next to that place. To me it was very difficult for me to go and kill a woman. I didn't want to do that. I couldn't understand the fact that you should go and kill the females and those were the people that were instructed by Khumalo to kill. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, I also want to put it to you that Mr Chamane testified that the AK47 that was in his possession that night, he did not receive that AK47 from Mr Mbhekiseni but that Induna Mkhondo fetched it from the hostel and handed it over to him. Do you have any comment on that? MR TSOTSETSE All I can say is that all the firearms were brought by one person, 3 AK 47's and 1 pistol. All these firearms, as we were standing there, they were given to all of us. No one said: "I had my own firearm" and rejected that other firearm, but we were given those firearms by Khumalo. Khumalo was given those firearms by somebody else. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now also, whilst you were standing there in the yard and Mr Mbhekiseni now giving you this specific order, did you have any plan worked out what exactly you were going to do there or a route that you were going to follow? MR TSOTSETSE What was important as far as Khumalo was concerned, was just to kill the people, that was the most important thing that was supposed to happen. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but most of the attacks the objective was to kill people, but that also necessitated some sort of planning. What Ms van der Westhuizen wants to know is, did you people when you set off, when you got those firearms, did you have any plan in mind how you would go about killing these people? Did you have any tactic to follow or anything of that nature? MR TSOTSETSE I think the language is very deep for me, the one that is used, the Zulu. CHAIRPERSON When you people went off, set off to Ngema Tavern with the intention to go and kill people there, did you have any plan? MR TSOTSETSE No. I did not know that yard therefore we couldn't have any plan, but we were thinking that we could find the people outside the house or perhaps inside the house. That would depend. We did not have a specific plan. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Chairperson. Now when ...(intervention) ADV BOSMAN May I just ask one question here please Ms van der Westhuizen? Was there anybody who was the leader of your group, who sort of said: "Now we must do this, now we must do that"? MR TSOTSETSE Are you talking about the people who were in my company or about a specific person who told us as to what to do? ADV BOSMAN While you were going to the tavern, was there anybody who was the leader of the group, the people in your company? MR TSOTSETSE No, we did not appoint anyone who was going to act as a leader. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Honourable Chair. Mr Tsotsetse, just to make sure, the people who set out on their way to Ngema Tavern was you yourself, Zwile Chamane, Mr Zimu and Thembinkosi Buthelezi, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now you stated in your affidavit that you, on your way, first went to Boshini's place. This Mr Boshini, was he a friend of yours? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot say Boshini was a friend of mine, he was just a young man, we grew up together but he was a bit older than me. I knew him because I was staying in Natalspruit. That's how I know him, MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Is it correct that you, amongst the four, was actually the person who suggested to go there and you're the one who knew him? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct because the others did not know him, I was the only person who knew him. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now you also stated in your affidavit that Zwile showed Thembinkosi how to operated the AK47. I just need to put it to you that Mr Chamane testified and said that he showed Mr Zimu how to operate the AK47, that was confirmed by Mr Zimu. Is this maybe a mistake in your affidavit? MR TSOTSETSE The person that I heard uttering, saying that he cannot operate the firearm, it was Thembinkosi. He's the one who said he cannot operate that then Zwile showed him as to how to use the firearm. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now just to get to the portion, or the section where you say that you're now at the tavern, you say that the person who was walking behind you was Zwile Chamane, do you know where Mr Zimu was? MR TSOTSETSE He was also behind me but a person who was nearer to me was Zwile, the others were behind Zwile. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Were you the first person amongst your group now, the four, who got to the garage entrance? MR TSOTSETSE Are you talking about the garage door or the gate? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN I'm talking about the garage door. Just to put it into context, you say in your affidavit "I then went to look inside the garage and saw people drinking and talking." I'm referring to that specific place. MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I'm the first one to enter. I was the first one to enter the garage. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN So if Mr Zimu says that he first went in there, do you say that he's making a mistake? MR TSOTSETSE I think he is making a mistake. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, did you see at all where Mr Thembinkosi Buthelezi was at that point in time? MR TSOTSETSE I got inside the garage but I did not see him outside. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, you also say in your statement "I shot at the speaker but it continued playing" Did you only fire one shot? MR TSOTSETSE I shot about three times. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Did you aim at any of the people in that specific room? MR TSOTSETSE The speaker was on the wall and I was shooting at the speaker. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, in your statement you say that you went outside and asked Priscilla from where the "hi-fi" was being operated. What I want to ask you, is this person Priscilla, have you met her before that night? MR TSOTSETSE No. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN How come you know that her name is Priscilla? MR TSOTSETSE Her name, I heard that in court that the owner of the house was Priscilla. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now as I understand that you then left and only later heard a number of shots being fired, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Do you know who fired those shots? MR TSOTSETSE No. MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Before the shots that you fired in the direction of the speaker, did you hear any other shots before that? MR TSOTSETSE No. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, is it correct that you are the person who actually pointed Mr Chamane out to the police as your accomplice and caused him to be arrested in this case, the Ngema case. MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN And is it also true that, I know that you were not the whole time in custody, that you at a stage escaped and were later re-arrested, but that during the proceedings of the trial as well as your imprisonment later on, you and Mr Chamane didn't get on very well. MR TSOTSETSE I did not spend much time with Zwile in prison, but I cannot remember fighting with him or having any argument. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN He testified and said that you, at a stage whilst either in the police cells or prison cells, pointed him out to ANC fellow inmates as the person being responsible for killing ANC comrades. Can you remember such an incident? MR TSOTSETSE As I've already explained, I never spent much time with him. We only met when we were going to court, I never met him before, during the awaiting trial. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Can I then, just to summarise it, on your evidence on what happened at Ngema Tavern, you did not cause any injury or death during that evening? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot say I never injured anyone because I fired and from the place where I was shooting, I cannot say for sure where did the bullet go to. I cannot say that I never injured anyone. CHAIRPERSON But you didn't purposely shoot at any person? You only purposely shot at the speakers and if you did hit somebody, that would have been either through a ricocheted or a bad shot? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now if I understand your evidence correctly, you followed Mr Khumalo's orders, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE When I was about to switch off the speaker, I heard gunshot on the other side of the garage, therefore I did not manage to go back there. When I went there I saw Zwile and the others running away and I joined them leaving Priscilla and the other gentleman who was in another room there. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN But your instructions were to go and kill ANC comrades at that tavern that night, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Why did you not aim at the people and instead shot at the speaker? MR TSOTSETSE I didn't see what I was expecting there, I just found people drinking, therefore I did not, I was not the one who was believing that those were the ANC people. As I was shooting the speaker, I wanted to search those people and see if they did not have firearms and I knew very well that the ANC people wouldn't just sit down and drink knowing very well that the situation is tense, I just found the people who were drinking there. I decided to shoot at the speaker and after that we try and search them to get the firearms, if they had any. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Amongst the four of you that set out from Mr Khumalo's house that night, you were the only one who knew where this Ngema Tavern was situated? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, in the group of the people that were in my company, I'm the only person who knew the place. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You see both Mr Chamane and Mr Zimu testified that amongst the four of them, you were the person who was actually in charge. Do you have any comments on that? MR TSOTSETSE What do you mean when you say I was in charge? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN You were actually the person who directed them where to go and what to do. MR TSOTSETSE As a person who was taken during the day by Khumalo who pointed out the places to me, therefore I had to do the same, I had to take them and point out the places to them. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Now, just on the aspect of the killing of Mr Norman Sithole, in your affidavit you say that, if I understand you correctly, you were, this Norman Sithole or Booi Sithole was actually sort of your brother-in-law, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON I got the impression, it might have been wrong, but perhaps he can confirm it, was Booi Sithole and Normal Sithole the same person? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN That is indeed so, it seems to be the same person. CHAIRPERSON I think if we could just confirm that. Is Booi Sithole and Normal Sithole the same person? MR TSOTSETSE No. CHAIRPERSON No, because I got the impression that they were two different people, his target was Booi but then they came across Norman, another person. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN That is my mistake, I apologise for that. Now Mr Tsotsetse you say in your affidavit now referring to Norman "He walked past us and then stopped. He looked in our direction, called my name and put his hand in his belt as if he was reaching for a gun. I shot him on the chest and we ran away." Now do you believe that this person wanted to attack you. MR PADI Excuse me Mr Chair. MR TSOTSETSE Under those circumstances I thought he was drawing a firearm. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Padi? MR PADI Thank you Mr Chair. May I request Ms van der Westhuizen to confine herself to the incident in which her client has been implicated because he's not mentioned anywhere in the killing of Norman Sithole. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chair, I'm not going to pursue this any further, I just want to put it to you, Mr Tsotsetse that you, as in the Ngema incident, also in this incident, try and exonerate yourself by saying that, looking for an excuse for instance in this incident with Norman Sithole, to say why you shot the man and that you're not fully accepting responsibility for what you did. Do you have any comment on that? MR TSOTSETSE I do not understand the question, would you please repeat it for me? CHAIRPERSON This is more for argument really, Ms van der Westhuizen. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Yes, I'm not going to pursue that. CHAIRPERSON I don't think he'll change his evidence. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, I am not going to pursue that at all. Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Before we proceed with questioning, it would seem that, from the cross-examination of Ms van der Westhuizen, that Mr Thembinkosi has now been implicated for the first time in this matter and the correct procedure should be to give him notification in terms of Section 30 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act. I would direct Mr Mapoma that this be done and that also a transcript, just of the relevant portion of the evidence, be attached to the notice to be sent to Mr Thembinkosi as soon as possible. MR MAPOMA As the Chairperson pleases. CHAIRPERSON It wouldn't have to be a transcript of the whole proceedings, but just the relevant portion. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Honourable Chairperson, I actually neglected to ask that the Request for Further Particulars and Mr Tsotsetse's response thereto be handed up. I will do that in the light of the fact that he had a look at his response and he actually confirmed that it was hand-written by him. CHAIRPERSON We were given a copy, I haven't had time to read it Ms van der Westhuizen. I don't know, has everybody else got a copy of this? Have you all got? Yes, it's been referred to, it's been identified, it's not in issue. We'll have that then received as Exhibit C. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard do you have any questions? MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Mr Tsotsetse, do the names Adv Z L Madasa and the further name Mbanda mean anything to you. CHAIRPERSON Would you just spell that first name again, Mr Richard please, I missed it? MR RICHARD M-A-D-A-S-A. MR TSOTSETSE Please repeat the question, I do not understand. MR RICHARD I have given you two names. The first name is Adv Z L Madasa, spelled M-A-D-A-S-A, the second one is another surname Mbanda. Do they mean anything to you? MR MAPOMA Excuse me Chairperson the last name is not correctly spelled. It's Nobanda. CHAIRPERSON It's Nobanda. N-O-B-A-N-D-A? Sorry Mr Tsotsetse, just if I can repeat the question again. Do the names Adv Z L Madasa and Nobanda mean anything to you? MR TSOTSETSE If my memory serves me correctly Nobanda is the one who took a statement from me. Madasa, though I am not certain about that, there was an Advocate that I talked to at Sanlam Centre in the hearing that I was involved in, the one that took place in the boardroom. I remember that there was a person, I think that was Madasa. MR RICHARD Now would you please turn to page 91 of Volume 1 and there there's a typed transcript of a statement made by you on the 28th of May 1998 last year. At paragraph 1 it reads "Statement of Thulani Mlaba taken on 28 May 1998 by his legal representative Adv Z L Madasa as a consequence of an agreement between the Investigation Unit of the TRC and Adv Madasa." Do you remember anything about that agreement? MR TSOTSETSE No, I cannot remember. MR RICHARD Now isn't it correct that this advocate represented you in the completion of that statement? MR TSOTSETSE He never mentioned to me that he was taking a statement. I remember that person, he never said he wanted my statement. He represented me because Nobanda couldn't make it, so he said he cannot continue with the matter therefore I had to wait for Nobanda and then he questioned me roughly about the things that I knew about Khumalo. MR RICHARD Now if you go back to page 89, 90, that's a hand-written version of the typed statement, Annexure H, which is Annexure H to your application. Isn't it correct that that was prepared by your legal representative? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot dispute that. He never mentioned that to me as a statement. CHAIRPERSON If you take a look at page 90 Mr Tsotsetse, at the bottom, is that not your signature? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is my signature. MR RICHARD Now Nobanda, is the person with the surname Nobanda a male or a female? MR TSOTSETSE It's a female. MR RICHARD Now what did Ms Nobanda do for you? MR TSOTSETSE It is the one who told me that she was taking a statement to forward to the Truth Commission as I have said that Mike Bellingan and the other gentleman that I cannot remember, this is the person that I said I cannot remember, Nobanda, that is. MR RICHARD Now isn't it her handwriting that appears page 75 onwards? MR TSOTSETSE Many people were involved in this, therefore I cannot distinguish among the signatures. I cannot say for sure that that was her signature or not. I cannot remember. MR RICHARD That's not the question. I never asked anything about questions, I'm asking you who sat down with you and prepared the document that appears at page 75? It says "Annexure. Affidavit. I Thulani Themba Mlaba Tsotsetse..." Who helped you write that piece of paper? Somebody sat with you and spent time. MR TSOTSETSE I am saying I cannot remember because many people were involved in this. I cannot say who is the person that I was with when I was writing this paper. MR RICHARD Alright. If we take page 79 as an example and on the left-hand margin there's a name there written, Mlaba, who wrote that? Do you recognise the handwriting? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is my handwriting. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now who was with you when you put your handwriting there? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember, so many people were involved in this statement taking. I cannot say for sure whose handwriting, who was present when I was writing there. MR RICHARD Because, well I haven't yet been able to pursue it as fully as I might, I can say what Mr Pigot and his successor Ms Sealy would say, is that neither of them ever helped you prepare a statement, or helped you complete an amnesty application. CHAIRPERSON I think, sorry, before you answer, if you could just explain that Pigot is Pearce. MR RICHARD Pearce Pigot and Sally Sealy. If called to give evidence they would both say that they never helped you complete an amnesty application. Is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE I also did not say that they made the statement, I said Pearce was the person who would visit the prison and we would tell him things and he would write down and he would bring some other people like the advocate and I am sure that whatever he was writing down, it was something that was coming from me. MR RICHARD But he never gave you what he wrote down to sign. He might have made notes in your company but you signing his notes are two different things. MR TSOTSETSE I once signed anything that he had written down. MR RICHARD You didn't sign anything that he had written down ever, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE There is something that I signed that was coming from him, or written down by him. MR RICHARD What was it? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember, but I remember that I once signed something that was coming from him. MR RICHARD An application for legal aid maybe? I'm not saying that it was. MR TSOTSETSE I am saying I cannot remember. I cannot remember whether it was a statement or some paper or document, but there was something that I signed. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now Mbhekiseni Khumalo, what did he do? What were his activities in life to make a living, to your knowledge? MR TSOTSETSE As far as I'm concerned, he had some kombis and he was also owning a tuck shop in his premises. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Tsotsetse, when you said he had some kombis, do you mean that he was in the taxi business? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD Now we then have two other Khumalos and forgive me if I mispronounce. Mphikelele Khumalo - what relationship is he to the first Khumalo that I've mentioned? MR TSOTSETSE If I'm not mistaken I think Mphikelele and Khumalo were brothers. MR RICHARD And Mzwakhe Khumalo, what relationship? MR TSOTSETSE Mzwakhe Khumalo was a son of Mbhekiseni Khumalo. MR RICHARD Now you've made mention of another name, Mr Mafulela. What are his full names? It's Albert Mafulela and he's got two surnames Mkhatjwa and Mlaba. Albert or Obed and he's got two surnames. MR RICHARD Now what was his relationship with the Khumalo family because we've now got a father, a son and a brother? What was Mafulela's relationship with them? MR TSOTSETSE They were in the same organisation, IFP that is. MR RICHARD Did they work together? CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard, when you say work, do you mean as IFP members, or in business in the taxi and Spaza shop and church, or whatever? MR RICHARD Did they do business together? MR TSOTSETSE No they were not working together in the business. MR RICHARD What did they do together then? MR TSOTSETSE As IFP members. MR RICHARD Now who was more senior? Was it Mr Mbhekiseni Khumalo or Mr Mlaba, also known as Mafulela? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot say who was the senior, but during the funeral of Khumalo's wife, Khumalo was a well-known person because even people from Soweto, East Rand, West Rand, all the people, a large number of people were there. I can say maybe he was a senior, but I'm not sure. MR RICHARD So, if I then said Mafulela Mlaba or Mkhatjwa as you've also used, was a senior member of the IFP, I'm not incorrect? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot dispute that. MR RICHARD Now somebody else, Percy Shabangu, what was he? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember. MR RICHARD Was he a person who associated himself with Mr Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD In what way did he associate himself? MR TSOTSETSE I knew Percy before meeting Khumalo. I used to hear people talking about Percy Shabangu and when I met with Khumalo, Percy was no longer alive, but I heard his name as a person who was associated with Khumalo. MR RICHARD Do you know from your personal knowledge what he did for Mr Khumalo, what Percy did for Mr Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE I have no idea but I can say perhaps he was doing exactly what was done by Khumalo, killing the people in the township. MR RICHARD What happened to Percy Shabangu? MR TSOTSETSE If my memory serves me well, he died. MR RICHARD How was he killed? MR TSOTSETSE I think he was killed, I cannot remember whether he was killed by the comrades or what, but I heard that he died in Tlapo Section, Tlapo Street, I beg your pardon. MR RICHARD I have one report that you were present when he was shot, is that incorrect? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember. MR RICHARD Alright. Let's move on to another ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Are you saying, Mr Tsotsetse you can't remember if you were present when your friend Percy was shot? How could you forget something like that? MR TSOTSETSE I am not saying I cannot remember whether I was present or not, but I cannot remember how he died, whether he was killed by the comrades or whatever, but I heard that he died in Tlapo street. CHAIRPERSON What Mr Richard was asking you, he was asking you were you present when Percy died, when he was shot? Were you present? Were you there at the place? MR TSOTSETSE No, I was not present. MR RICHARD I go to the next name, Peter Sibeko, also known as Buguli, what do you know about him? MR TSOTSETSE I knew him through Khumalo. MR RICHARD And what was his connection to the Rev Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE I can say I knew him as a person who was with Khumalo, but I don't know what is it that they were doing together. MR RICHARD And then, Fanuel Tshabalala? CHAIRPERSON What was that first name, please? MR RICHARD Fanuel, F-A-N-U-E-L. MR TSOTSETSE I know the name, but I do not know the person. MR RICHARD Did he have any association with Mr Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE I can say yes, he was also associated with Khumalo. MR RICHARD In what way was he associated? MR TSOTSETSE I have no idea. MR RICHARD Alright. Then next name, Kopano, also known as, forgive me, Kakabane Remaisa, do you know that person? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I know the name Kopano, but I do not know the person, I cannot remember. MR RICHARD Was he connected or not connected with Mr Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE I think he was a relative of Khumalo, if I'm not mistaken. MR RICHARD The 9th name I'm going to use is Thami Malindisa, is that name familiar to you? Thami Malindisa, M-A-L-I-N-D-I-S-A. MR TSOTSETSE There's a Thami that I knew who was residing at Mazibuku Street, I'm not sure if that is the one that you are referring to. MR RICHARD It's the only Thami I've got on my list, on this list at page 3. And then Thembinkosi Buthelezi, I've heard about him before. What was his connection with Mr Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE Thembinkosi and myself, Thembinkosi was residing in Natalspruit and he used to be a friend of mine and we used to go together. I think his relations with Khumalo were the same as mine, because he was also an IFP. MR RICHARD And then we have Zwile Chamane, whom we've heard about and Mbatho, we've heard about them. now isn't it correct that all these 13,14 names that I've listed were members of what was known as the Khumalo Gang, including you? MR TSOTSETSE MR RICHARD Thank you. If I understand Sir, your answer is that you weren't a close member of the Khumalo Gang, but these other names, were they not members of what was known as the Khumalo Gang? MR TSOTSETSE I don't even have knowledge of this Khumalo Gang. Well maybe there was a Khumalo Gang existing somehow, but I only knew about Khumalo to be the very one who was a killer, or killing, as to the gang, I bear no knowledge of that. MR RICHARD Now when you knew of the Rev Khumalo or Bishop Khumalo or Mr Khumalo killing, what did you know? Tell us. How did he kill people? With whom did he kill people? Where did he kill people? MR TSOTSETSE Well Khumalo killed my friend, one close friend of mine one story surfaced that he did not want anyone after 8 o'clock at night in the location in the streets and a person like myself who was wearing ordinary location clothes, would not even pass by, so he is the one, he had a hand in the killing of my friend and he did not like people like us in the location. MR RICHARD Now would he personally kill you, or would he get somebody else, or some Lieutenant or soldier? MR TSOTSETSE Before I met Khumalo, the person I'm referring to as a friend of mine, he was called by him and he went to his house, Khumalo that is and found that he was not there and he shot in the room and after that Lucky and his parents suggested that Lucky must go to Khumalo to have some discussion with Khumalo in light of the problem and when Khumalo arrived at his place, he shot at Lucky and I knew very well that Khumalo was the one who was killing. He may be in a group of people, but he himself would do as well the killing, so that many people had the knowledge that it was Khumalo himself who killed Lucky. Now as to his association with the group or other people, I know he would have such association with other people or be in a group because even that particular day in question he had been in the company of a group. MR RICHARD So I'm correct in saying there was an organisation which was termed in the Ngema Section as the Khumalo Gang? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I will not deny that, but during my times there, I don't remember the Khumalo Gang, but we'll have people of the Zulu nation who would always have dealings or were closely connected with Khumalo and were hostel dwellers. People like Peter were people who were quite close to Khumalo, but no longer had the time. Peter I know him for a fact because even in prison I met with him. I know him very well as well as Mzwakhe Khumalo. MR RICHARD Now, why did you join the IFP? MR TSOTSETSE You see I did not join the IFP with intent or with such intentions or deliberately so that I'm going to join IFP. You see, this is how it happened. Khumalo got there at Twala and I did not know him at first but I'd heard about him that he's a killer and I will be pointed at his car, people showing me at his car and he arrived on this particular day. I was in the company of Mogadi and others and Khumalo arrived and where we were, we were in a garage drinking some beer and there's only one small door, not the big vehicle door, so he went into the house. We first saw him and we locked the door. We were locked inside. Now Mogadi was inside and it became apparent that he and Mogadi were not in good talking terms, so to speak. We were quite many in number in the garage and when he was approaching towards, or approaching the gate there was a vehicle or a van parked there and we attempted to escape but somebody told him that there was a door leading to the garage and as he was turning back, he had in his possession different types of firearms and he never even ...(indistinct) if I remember very well, but what he did, he took the boy that was from that house and that was the boy who was killed by Khumalo and after that we went back to that house to inquire as to what he wanted and the lady in the house told us that he had taken the boy from the house to kill. An hour later we realised that he had already shot the boy and went back to report this to the parents and he had left the message that he will come back later in the afternoon and we were no longer in the house, but we were somewhere else, and indeed he came and shot another person and set the house alight. As to how he obtained my home address, I don't know, but he did get it at any rate and went in and shot in and left a message that my parents should purchase the casket for me or a coffin, but I did not believe that he knew me in person. MR RICHARD So what you're telling us is that you joined the Inkatha Freedom Party out of fear of your life and that in fact you would have been killed if you had not joined the IFP, is that in short what you're telling us? MR TSOTSETSE I'm trying to explain that because Mafulela was the one who told me that in a situation like this - okay, let me go back. You see the house of Mafulela is not too far away from Spruit, so he had a car and back rooms as well so I was residing in one of the back rooms and go and visit my home occasionally until they realised that I was residing there full time and there was already this conflict that had broken out in the location, so my sibling was told that he should try to get me, but if they don't succeed they will be killed, but then I will receive such information, but it so happened that one Sunday on of my siblings came over to my place to where I was residing. I think he was under surveillance and was captured by some boys somewhere in Natalspruit and he was killed subsequently and I never went there at all of that. This is how and why I joined Inkatha subsequently. CHAIRPERSON I think you've summed it up Mr Richard that he joined it in self-defence, basically. MR RICHARD I didn't expect quite such a long answer. Now when we talk of Gertrude and Abraham Mzizi what was their connection with Mr Khumalo? Maybe the witness would like a break. Mr Padi? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I didn't notice. Mr Tsotsetse, would you like a short ...? I think we'll take a five minute break, the witness doesn't see to be in a state to carry on. MR RICHARD Okay. ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard. THULANI TERRENCE TSOTSETSE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD (cont.) ...Priscilla, the lady you robbed the R150 from, will say that you drunk beer in her tavern. MR TSOTSETSE Well I will not repudiate all of that but it was my first time to enter her premises at that time. You see, I was brought up in that location and from my house Ngema is quite close and there were shops located there and I will go freely, but as to go, as to go into her house, I will not, but I think she was told by people because I grew up in that area, I'm pretty well-known, but as for entering into her house, that was my first time and I did not even have the knowledge that that was a tavern, her place that is. MR RICHARD Did you have any idea as to whether ANC or IFP or AZAPO or whatever supporters drank in that tavern? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I had no such an idea but I did not even know, as to an extent that even when Khumalo would point a house and say: "This is the hang-out place", I would believe it because I had no idea. MR RICHARD That's a different question. My question to you is, you grew up in that area, you were familiar with people in that area? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR RICHARD Did you know in advance whether IFP member drank in a particular tavern or ANC members drank in the same tavern, or a mixture of both? If you went out on a Saturday afternoon to have a beer, would you know which was which? MR TSOTSETSE Well, when I was still in Spruit, things like IFP and ANC were not existing and they were not quite of great importance so that the people were all mixed together. These things started and originated around this time when IFP would be one side and the ANC would be the other and those were things that never pre-occupied my mind earlier on. MR RICHARD That means that if I put it to you that on the day of the massacre in the Ngema Tavern the patrons of the establishment were mostly non-aligned and politics was not an issue and in fact it was not relevant as to which party who belonged to, you wouldn't dispute what I said? MR TSOTSETSE Well as I had explained, that although Khumalo had said there were people of ANC, I believed that because the other side was IFP dominant and the other ANC, so when you are on the other side you will obviously know especially that I'd already left the area for quite some time, I will not be in a position to know exactly as to what, except it was well established and bottom line was once you are in the other side, you are known to be aligned to that particular group and on the other side as well. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Tsotsetse you said that when you went into that room and you wanted to shoot out the speakers to make it quiet, it was your intention to sort out which people were ANC members, to establish whether they were by seeing if they've got guns, didn't you say that? MR TSOTSETSE I did say that, but it was not the way Khumalo had explained to me. When people had gathered in one cause, you can easily tell that they have one thing in common there, but for people who were in a relaxed mood like that having their beers, it's not quite easy for one to tell that now they are busy on a certain task or so, but upon getting there it was not the picture that had been portrayed to us earlier on, when we got there we found a different picture altogether. MR RICHARD But what I'm asking you now is the following: Is it not true to say that the sole method of target selection, to put it that way, that was used in identifying the Ngema Tavern as a target to be shot up, was its address and beyond that no-one had any particular factual knowledge of who drank, frequented in that tavern, or why? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, please may you repeat your question? MR RICHARD What I'm saying is that when whoever, and you tell us it was Mr Khumalo, made a decision that that tavern should be attacked, and he chose it, the only information he had to go on was its address and apart from the fact that its address was in a so-called ANC area, he knew nothing at all about who was in that tavern? MR TSOTSETSE Well, I may concur with that because that was not the only place he had identified as a target, there were others as well. MR RICHARD What were the other targets? MR TSOTSETSE He had given us Sesdodo's address. There was one lady who was residing in Thokoza and he had instructed us to kill her as well and Mr Ndaba was also in the list as well as Thami, who owned a bottle store further up, was also one of the people who was sought. MR RICHARD Now I'm talking about the Ngema Tavern. So he chose it because in his belief it was an ANC stronghold. CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard, just did Mr Tsotsetse not say that he also said that that is where the people are who killed his wife? MR RICHARD That's another point. CHAIRPERSON I think, yes, but I mean there was a little bit more than just the address. MR RICHARD ; Right, we'll ask that question. Did you have any knowledge as to why Mr Khumalo believed that the people who killed his wife were at the Ngema Tavern? MR TSOTSETSE I have no idea. MR RICHARD Now you have mentioned the death of Mr Khumalo's wife. As far as you know, who killed her? MR TSOTSETSE I suspect Khumalo himself, although he had sent other people because he first came to me that we must kill the wife and to me that was difficult to carry and once I'd heard that the wife had been killed I had it in myself that he knows very well what happened to the wife. MR RICHARD So now that meant you didn't believe the bona fides of the statement that the people who killed his wife were in that Tavern? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR RICHARD And then when you were in the Tavern, your suspicions were confirmed that there was no basis for believing that it was an ANC stronghold? M TSOTSETSE Well please repeat that line of question. MR RICHARD And then once you were inside the house, you were, your suspicions were confirmed. You could now see that there was no particular reason to believe that that particular house and that particular tavern was an ANC stronghold, or a place where Mr Khumalo's wife's killers would be enjoying themselves. MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR RICHARD Now can you answer this question - if that was so apparent to you, why do you believe that your colleagues or comrades continued to shoot people in the tavern? Why did they do it? MR TSOTSETSE You see, for such a question I will not have an appropriate answer or response because according to the instructions I had been given, it was in such a way that I would get there and shoot randomly, not ask any questions or establish anything, for that matter and when I got there, I realised that those people were in a jubilant mood, they were in such a mood that they were dancing and chatting around, this is why I aimed at the speaker and thereafter left to establish where the "hi-fi" set was placed, but then I heard the fire arms, or the shots. I don't know what went through the minds of my colleagues, if I may say. MR RICHARD What did you plan to do after turning off the "hi-fi" system? MR TSOTSETSE I wanted to go back there and try and search those people and then we would later discuss because Khumalo told us that those people had firearms, therefore we had to bring those firearms with. MR RICHARD And you weren't going to shoot them first and then find the firearms? MR TSOTSETSE I said, if a person was prepared to fight, you could see those people and those people were expecting nothing, they looked more like ordinary people enjoying themselves. It became too difficult for me to shoot at a person in that condition. I just decided to draw their attention by shooting at the speaker and after that we would later search them. MR RICHARD Why did you take the R150 from Priscilla? MR TSOTSETSE I never took any money from Priscilla. The person that I saw with money, it was Themba Zimu and I saw him giving that money to Khumalo. MR RICHARD Why did he take the money? MR TSOTSETSE I don't even know whether he took that money from Priscilla but I saw him with that money and he was giving it the Khumalo. I don't know where he got the money from. MR RICHARD My last proposition is if Priscilla comes and gives evidence and says that some time before the shooting you had been at her tavern, got drunk and been asked to leave, what would be your answer? MR TSOTSETSE That is a mistake. It was very difficult for people to get into Natalspruit those times as a person from Thokoza. I think she is making a mistake. CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard didn't mention any time. It might have been quite a long time before the killing, we don't know. At any time, maybe even when you were still a resident of Natalspruit? MR TSOTSETSE As I've explained before that that was my very first time to set my foot on those premises and I didn't even know that was a shebeen. I only realised that place was a shebeen on that particular day. MR RICHARD My last question, when you walked up to that address, which had been pointed to you by Mr Khumalo, did you know people were going to die? MR TSOTSETSE Please repeat the question, Sir. MR RICHARD When you went to that address in Ngema Section, Ngema Tavern, before you went in, before you went up to the door, did you know people were going to die? MR TSOTSETSE I can say I knew because I was told that we were supposed to kill people there. I knew that people are going to die, ANC members. MR RICHARD Thank you. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Motloung, do you have any questions you'd like to ask? MR MOTLOUNG Yes, I do, Mr Chairman, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTLOUNG Mr Tsotsetse, tell me Sir, do you appreciate that one of the most important things that you have to do before you could qualify for amnesty would be that you have to tell us the truth, the whole truth? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR MOTLOUNG And listening to you testify, I'm getting an impression here, you may correct it, that somewhere deep in your heart you feel bitter, you feel neglected, abandoned by certain people, is that impression correct? MR TSOTSETSE I do not understand. MR MOTLOUNG I say I'm getting an impression that you feel like somebody who feels that I have been used, there were these people that used me, now I'm sitting it out alone in jail and they are there out of there apparently and you feel so bad about it, is that impression correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. Some of them are here and I can see Mr Mzizi, he's in a suburb today, he came to prison to tell me to apply for amnesty and he promised me everything but today he's staying in a suburb. MR MOTLOUNG Okay. Now that you have already touched on Mr Mzizi, let's talk more about him. You say he came to you in prison? And what did he come to say there? MR TSOTSETSE I was in Johannesburg prison with Themba Zimu. We were trying to phone them, people like Thaba Dlamini, people who had positions in IFP and they always promised to come and visit us and we told them that we were looking forward to applying for amnesty, but we didn't know what to say. They always told us to get clean and wait for them, even when we were sentenced in 1994 we made some tricks because we wanted to see their position, because we could see that they were neglecting us. We spoke with Themba and pretended as if we were TRC officials and we phoned them and we told them that we are TRC officials who are here in jail and there are members here in jail who wanted to apply for amnesty, then when he heard that those people were TRC officials, he came straight to jail and he told us that TRC people phoned and he said it's a good thing that you did not make a statement and then they told us not to apply because they said they were going to buy us TVs and they were going to do anything for us and even on that particular day, he gave us money and then he told us not to say anything to the TRC officials and he even said that we shouldn't implicate anyone in the IFP. Then he left us with that instruction. MR MOTLOUNG And Mr Tsotsetse, what we all know is that at some stage you were critically ill, I'm not sure if I'm treading on holy ground. CHAIRPERSON Well, we know that for ourselves from the last hearing. It was quite apparent he was very seriously ill. MR MOTLOUNG Look, if you don't wish to disclose, let me put it differently - I have information at my disposal that suggests that you had actually been poisoned, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE I can say that is true because what actually helped me to feel better, I was helped by the other inmate to induce vomiting and I felt better thereafter. MR MOTLOUNG And Themba Zimu, is it also correct that there was an attempt to kill him at some stage by stabbing whilst in custody? MR SWANEPOEL Mr Chairperson, my apologies, might I intervene here? Maybe my learned friend could indicate where his line of cross-examination is going. If it has any bearing on what happened in 1990 and 1993 in Thokoza, that is all good and well, if he's implying that people are trying to prevent evidence from coming out, maybe that should have some basis in fact and I would like to inquire whether evidence is going to be led along those lines. I don't know what the line of examination is aiming at. MR MOTLOUNG I am forgetting your surname. CHAIRPERSON Mr Swanepoel. MR MOTLOUNG Mr Swanepoel, Mr Chairman, maybe before I even answer the question, you know when you did your cross-examination I found myself so many times constrained to ask exactly where are you getting, but I didn't make it my task to creep in during your cross-examination but maybe coming back to the question pertinently, my understanding of this whole process Sir, is that we want to know the truth and I want to suggest that if the information that I have at my disposal is correct, it is imperative that we should know that there are people out there who might even be trying to silence this applicant and that may have a bearing on the future Sir. MR SWANEPOEL Mr Chairperson, with respect. My learned friend is cross-examining. Cross-examining is something which is questions that is asked about evidence being given at this hearing. If my learned friend wants to put further evidence before this hearing that might impact on the coming out of the truth or not, then he's welcome to do so, but then that must obviously be tested as well. CHAIRPERSON I think with cross-exam ...(intervention) MR RICHARD ...to interject by reminding Mr Swanepoel that this is not an adversarial trial, it's not evidence in chief and then cross-examination, it's an inquiry, it's sui generis. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and also of course one's cross-examination isn't limited to the evidence that has been given, if you call a witness and have that witness in the box for half a minute, somebody is entitled to cross-examine that person for half a day on all aspects of the matter, surely. MR SWANEPOEL That's a given, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But I think there must be some basis, you know we don't want just rumours spread out through the press etc., there's got to be some basis, like for instance if Mr Zimu has been assaulted, I mean he was either assaulted or not assaulted. If you know that an attempt was made to stab him, that's fine, you can ask that but we don't want just all sorts of rumours being put as if they were facts and having people maybe improperly implicated when they're in fact not. MR SWANEPOEL Thank you. MR MOTLOUNG Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm sure Mr Swanepoel will appreciate that I'm actually agonising in posing some of these questions, I'm not trying to be sensational about it, but I can understand your concerns because some of them turn out to be your clients, some of the people being mentioned. That is perfectly understood, but if I may go on Mr Chairman. Can we step off that point. Mr Tsotsetse if one has a look at your initial affidavit or what purports to be your initial affidavit that went with your application for amnesty and one is just suppose that with your latest affidavit that was made sometime in October this year, I think the 30th of October, I think one thing that cannot escape one's attention is that your latest affidavit is very toned down. In your initial affidavit you implicate yourself in so many incidents and when it comes to the latest, you talk about only three in that affidavit. Do you know why? MR TSOTSETSE The reason for that is my legal representative, the one sitting next to me, he mentioned the cases that would be raised by the Commission and this is the one Pretoria incident and the other cases that I was sentenced for and he even made mention of the fact that other details are required from me, I'll have to state them in this affidavit. MR MOTLOUNG Yes, I think I hear what you're saying, but what I'm actually putting to you is that it seems to me on the fact of it, the purpose of your latest affidavit was to cut down the number of activities in which you implicate yourself, nothing new, merely cutting down quite a number. MR TSOTSETSE I cannot explain it in that manner because I said my representative told me that a question will be asked if there were other incidents that were never included in the other affidavit and he told me to mention the charges that I was sentenced for, my aim was not to cut down the other incidents. MR MOTLOUNG Okay, let's get what I think is the crux of the whole thing. Is the impression correct that before you went to stay in Thokoza you were a thug? You seemed to ...(indistinct) some speciality in stealing cars. MR TSOTSETSE I was not a thug, I was just stealing the cars. MR MOTLOUNG Oh you were a thief? Okay. Sorry. And you knew Mr Mafulela Mlaba because he was connected with this crime that you were doing, stealing cars and that's how far you knew him before you went to stay in Thokoza, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR MOTLOUNG And when it comes to the Bishop himself, Bishop Khumalo, Mbhekiseni Khumalo, you seemed to know him also as somebody who is busy committing crimes because of his notoriety of killing people, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR MOTLOUNG I'm saying to you you didn't know them as IFP people or persons, you knew them as people who were involved in crimes, is that correct, at that time? MR TSOTSETSE I can say so, because at that time I was not staying in Thokoza and I didn't even know Khumalo, I only knew Mafulela. I only heard about Khumalo when he was a very notorious person, that if you are wearing an ...(indistinct) shoe, or whatever, a tie that would identify you as a person who was from the township, that is when I got to know him. MR MOTLOUNG In fact when you initially came to know him, you knew him as somebody who was busy committing things that you didn't agree with, things that you regarded as being wrong, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR MOTLOUNG And why did you yourself leave that home, Natalspruit? Why did you go to stay in Thokoza? What caused it? MR TSOTSETSE What made me to leave home is because of Khumalo. I can say the main person who made me to leave home was Mafulela because after Khumalo had done that and he went to my place, and I don't even know who gave him my address, when I got home I was pointed at the roof, they said: "Look here what Khumalo did and he even told us to buy a coffin" because he was going to kill me. CHAIRPERSON I think we've heard this Mr Motloung. He said that he got this threat and he thought it would be in his best interests to rather join the other side than try to fight. MR MOTLOUNG Okay. And according to your understanding, is it correct that Bishop Khumalo was looking for you because he thought that you were one of the criminals who had raped his daughter? MR TSOTSETSE I think so but at that particular time Khumalo was on a killing spree and he wouldn't even distinguish any one and he would just kill any person who was coming from the township, more especially young men who were wearing All Star shoes. MR MOTLOUNG Okay. Talking about the IFP, do you know what their policies are, what they stand for and so on? I get the impression you don't. MR TSOTSETSE I do not understand when you say IFP policies. MR MOTLOUNG Do you know what distinguished the IFP from the ANC? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I know. MR MOTLOUNG What was that, except that they hated each other? MR TSOTSETSE I only know that IFP was coming from ANC, I know nothing about politics, history of politics I don't know anything about that, I only know that Gatscha was once an ANC member. MR MOTLOUNG Okay. Now you see why I'm asking you all these questions is that I want to suggest to you and maybe you have said it, maybe I didn't get it well, you know, I want to suggest to you that you went to stay with Mafulela Mlaba only as a matter of survival. You knew that you were regarded as a criminal, that amongst others Bishop Khumalo was looking for you, and your only way out was to work with him. Is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE What made me to leave home, yes that is the reason. MR MOTLOUNG Okay. Now apparently I'm referring now in this instance to, if you may refer to page 91 of the first bundle, in fact to be precise page 92, there's mention of some rapes being committed there in Mphikeleli's car. Do you know anything about any of those rapes that were committed? CHAIRPERSON It's paragraph 10 on page 92. MR MOTLOUNG Yes, I can say that but I have no clue. I don't even know what happened, I just heard that from the other people and I don't even know where the incident took place, but I remember one day Mphikeleli's car was set alight by the Thokoza people. I don't even know whether it was set alight because they were abducting people. MR MOTLOUNG Okay. And talking about yourself, you are not a member of the so-called SAFRO protection unit falling under the IFP, isn't it? You haven't said it thus far. You were not, correct? MR TSOTSETSE No, I was never a member because even this SPU I heard about it when I was in jail and I don't even know what their modus operandi was. MR MOTLOUNG Okay. And do you agree that there were thousands of people that were IFP members in Thokoza? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR MOTLOUNG Do you happen to know why yourself and a few names like Zwile, Tereblanche and other, only that small group, seemed to be a common denominator to the violence, the only small group of people that go about committing crimes and so on. CHAIRPERSON We haven't got that - I don't think the evidence before this hearing is that the only crimes committed in Thokoza were these ones that we're listening to now. MR MOTLOUNG Okay, I'll rephrase my question then, Mr Chairman. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Let me put it this way. Now that you know that there were thousands of people who were members of the IFP regarding the incidents in which you yourself were involved, do you know why you specifically had to be involved in committing those crimes? MR TSOTSETSE As I have explained before, there were many people who were falling under IFP but the area mostly was under the hostel people because those houses were just in front of the hostel and Tereblanche and the others, they were staying in hostels and there were also different hostels and different gates. Each and every gate had its own leaders. Even if they would meet sometimes, it's possible that like Kuthuza Hostel, Madala Hostel, they had a part that was going through Natalspruit and things that were happening on the other side. I'm trying to explain that perhaps in this hostel there were people who heard that if we instruct certain people, they were going to do a perfect job. They couldn't take anyone because there were also elderly people there. There were also youth and some of them were always in the firms and some of them were unemployed, therefore they had a certain criteria that they were using to get people to do some stuff because they knew that there were people who were unemployed and they were guarding the hostel while the others were at work. MR MOTLOUNG Okay. A new point. Tell me, I'm under the impression that you might have killed so many people that you might even have forgotten some of the incidents. MR TSOTSETSE I cannot dispute that because during the night there would be a fight and up to early hours of the morning and we would be shooting at a group of people, therefore you wouldn't know what happened thereafter. I cannot dispute what you're saying. MR MOTLOUNG But speaking in general, I'm sure you can recall if you were ever involved in some street shootings, where you find people walking the streets and you just shoot at them. Were you ever involved in such? MR TSOTSETSE There were people sometimes, perhaps they are visiting their relatives and they don't even know which one is a no-go area, moving from Thokoza to Natalspruit, but it's so easy for a person to see a stranger. it would be difficult for one to protect such a person against a crowd and I had nothing to say because I was coming from Natalspruit. Sometimes you would see people dying knowing very well that those people were strangers. Sometimes one would be shot on the leg and try and tell the people that: "I'm coming from Vereeniging but I don't know what was happening", but I couldn't help such people and help them in such a way that I could take them to the hospital, it was very difficult for me to talk about that because I was also scared about my own life. There would be people, innocent people, who would just die in such conditions and it would be clear that that person would be a visitor or a stranger, because what was happening in Natalspruit and Thokoza, if you were a person who was staying there, you wouldn't set your foot on the no-go areas, even if you were from the Thokoza side, it wouldn't be easy for you to go to Natalspruit because it was clear that you'll never come back alive. It is obvious that if you were a person from those townships, it's obvious, it's so easy for them to identify a person from the township because even the language that you use, you cannot speak the language that is used, but the ...(indistinct) the interpreters as they are using this ...(indistinct) language, so therefore it was easy for them to identify us as township people. MR MOTLOUNG No, no, I hear all that but my question in short was, were you ever involved in some of these street attacks where you find people, and you yourself shot at the people. CHAIRPERSON Random shootings in the street. MR MOTLOUNG That's right. CHAIRPERSON Yes, or no, were you involved in any of these attacks? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. MR MOTLOUNG Were you involved in some attacks where supermarkets or some shops, or people standing around shops were shot at? MR TSOTSETSE No, I cannot remember attacking the shops and people standing around the shops. MR MOTLOUNG Okay. And almost finally, talking about the case of Sam Nduli, you say that you were supposed to be part of the group that would go and murder Sam Nduli, but you were told that you were a township tsotsi, you commit many mistakes. Now who were these people that you were with that you saw and knew that they are now leaving and they're going to kill Sam Nduli, who are those people? MR TSOTSETSE Please repeat your question Sir. CHAIRPERSON Who were the people who you saw leaving on the mission to kill Sam Nduli? MR TSOTSETSE The person that I saw was Zwile, Obed was driving in his car a Honda Ballade, Mafulela and Tereblanche were also present. The others, I've just forgotten their names, but I can identify their faces. MR MOTLOUNG And it is your evidence that when they left, you knew exactly what they were going to do, correct? They were going to kill someone? CHAIRPERSON Yes, he knew that they were going to kill, but he didn't know, he said he didn't know how or where? MR MOTLOUNG Yes, no that I understand Mr Chairman. And how long after they had left did you come to know or hear that Sam Nduli has in fact now been killed? MR TSOTSETSE On that same day, during the day, Obed and the others came driving in Obed's car and they did not bring the other cars that they used when they were leaving. CHAIRPERSON But the question was, after they left, approximately how long did you have to wait before you heard that Sam Nduli was actually dead, it wasn't asking whether anybody came back with a car or anything, it was how much later did you hear of the death of Mr Nduli? MR MOTLOUNG Was it 5 minutes later, 5 hours later, 1 hour later? MR TSOTSETSE I think it was just after two to three hours, I cannot remember very well. MR MOTLOUNG Now in conclusion, Mr Tsotsetse, I put it to you that maybe for that one, have you ever seen an IFP membership card? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR MOTLOUNG Did you ever have one? MR TSOTSETSE Yes. MR MOTLOUNG But tell me, especially someone who came from the township, did you know that there were some criminals who'd commit crimes within the township and when things get hot for them in the township, they would run to the hostels where predominantly you would find IFP people and seek refuge there, did you know about that? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember hearing about such things that there were criminals who were protecting themselves using IFP people. I don't even remember seeing such people. MR MOTLOUNG Because I want to put it to you in conclusion that what happened here clearly, is that having run away from Katlehong, you found yourselves seated with another criminal who was Mafulela, the one, your regular customer, and he happened to know the Rev Khumalo who was looking for some other criminals who had allegedly raped his daughter, and you saw that your only way out is to do everything with them and pretend to be one of them, whereas in fact deep down in your heart you knew that you were just surviving no politics street. Correct? MR TSOTSETSE I disagree with that statement because when I left home, it was not a very good feeling for me. It was very difficult for me to leave my home but because of the conditions prevailing at the time, I had to leave home and I didn't even know that when getting to that other side I would end up working with IFP, but it just happened when I was there on the other side with the IFP people. MR MOTLOUNG And just for the benefit of my clients who are victims, I just want to clarify, except for the Ngema shooting and the conspiracy with the people who killed Sam Nduli and the murder of Norman Sithole, are you applying for amnesty for any other crime? CHAIRPERSON He said he's applying for three others. The one is this picking up people in the taxis under false pretences and taking them to the hostels and two was the forced evictions from various homes and the third one was a sort of general one, unlawful possession of arms. MR MOTLOUNG Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now except these 6 crimes or categories of crimes, you're not applying for amnesty for any other crimes, correct? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember about the other incidents. MR MOTLOUNG No, I'll leave it at that. Thank you. I have got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLOUNG CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson, just a few. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mr Tsotsetse, I understand you must be tired by now, you have been under cross-examination for the whole day. I will be short and I hope you will assist me as well. Sir, when you joined the Inkatha Freedom Party, I gained an impression that you did not join the IFP because you were necessarily in agreement with the political objective that it intended achieving in South Africa, you joined it simply because you wanted ... CHAIRPERSON Just because of the circumstances. I think that's quite clear, because he said he doesn't even know, he hasn't got a clue what the policies of the IFP are. MR MAPOMA Yes, thank you, Chairperson. And I suppose even the actions that you are involved in, you were not participating in those action with a view to achieve political objective as such, but because you were just loyal to those who gave you instructions, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, that is correct. I was not aiming at benefiting anything. MR MAPOMA And you were not aware that those actions were in fact furthering the objectives of the IFP or not, you yourself sitting there, you can't say that, is that correct? MR TSOTSETSE Please repeat your question. MR MAPOMA .... (Not translated). MR TSOTSETSE I cannot say yes or no, but I don't believe that there's something that I did, there's something that I took initiative about and go to kill the people, everything that I did, I did it per instruction from the Commanders and the people that I would hear them talking, people like Thembinkosi, as I have said, that was the IFP terrain. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I will leave it there. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Do you have any re-examination, Mr Padi? MR PADI Yes, I do, Mr Chair. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PADI Mr Tsotsetse, in relation to the motor vehicles that were stolen and were purported to be used in the killing of Sam Nduli, just to clarify this to the Committee, was the motor vehicle that you stole, was it a Corolla, the sedan motor vehicle, was it a Corolla or a Cressida? MR TSOTSETSE It was a Corolla. MR PADI And you knew for a fact that at some stage Themba Zimu went to steal a Cressida and brought it to the people who instructed you to steal cars, is that so? MR TSOTSETSE I saw Themba driving that particular car, but I don't know if he was instructed by the same people, but I saw that car and it ended up in the hostel, Kuthuza or Madala hostel. MR PADI You stated under cross-examination that Mr Chamane was present at Mr Mzizi's place when the killing of Mr Nduli was planned. Do you recall him being given any particular instruction relating to the killing, or do you recall any role that he was supposed to play at all? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot remember anything that was directed to him. He was just quiet. MR PADI And you don't recall him being given any particular instructions relating to that? MR TSOTSETSE I cannot say he was never given instructions but it's just that I never saw him but he used to stay with these people at the hostel, therefore I don't know what transpired during, in their discussions during my absence. MR PADI Before you joined the IFP, did you at all know Mafulela to be a member of the IFP? MR TSOTSETSE As I've explained before, there was no ANC and IFP. People were living together. All these things came during this conflict. CHAIRPERSON If you can just listen to the question. At the time that you lived in Natalspruit when you were stealing cars and Mr Mafulela was one of your customers, did you know him to be an IFP? That is the question, yes or no? MR TSOTSETSE No. MR PADI When did it come to your attention that Mr Mafulela was a member of the IFP? MR TSOTSETSE I got that information when I was staying with him. MR PADI And it is your evidence ...(end of tape) MR TSOTSETSE ... was closest and he's the one that would protect me. MR PADI In relation to Mbhekiseni Khumalo, did you know if he was a member of the IFP prior to you staying with Mafulela? MR TSOTSETSE No, I did not know him as an IFP member. MR PADI When did you learn that he was an IFP member? MR TSOTSETSE I got that information whilst staying with Mafulela. MR PADI You gave evidence that you regarded Mr Mafulela and Mr Khumalo as people of authority in the IFP. Can you maybe clarify to the Committee as to what brought about that impression? MR TSOTSETSE It is because of the way that they were operating. There were always IFP people and gatherings where Khumalo and Mafulela were. MR PADI Thank you, I have no further questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you'd like to ask? ADV SIGODI Just a few, Chairperson. Mr Tsotsetse, how many were you at your home? Do you have brothers and sisters? MR TSOTSETSE I had only one sister and the other one has passed away and I have two brothers. ADV SIGODI And the sister who has passed away, how did she die? MR TSOTSETSE She is the one who was instructed to come and get me because they wanted to kill me. I can say she died because of me, because the people who were looking for me - because she phoned to bring me to Natalspruit and she could visit me on the other side, therefore they decided to kill her. ADV SIGODI Who killed her? MR TSOTSETSE I don't know clearly, but when I went to the hospital, she was trying to tell me, but it was very difficult for her because apparently her body was set alight. ADV SIGODI In your mind, do you think it was ANC or IFP? Or was it part of Khumalo Gang? MR TSOTSETSE The spot where they found here was not an IFP terrain, but ANC terrain. ADV SIGODI The reason I'm asking you is because in your application form at page 71, paragraph 10(b) you mentioned that "Although most of the killings were revenge killings since some of our members and/or supporters including my sister, were killed in the location." I wanted to know what basis did you have to think that your sister was killed for a political reason. MR TSOTSETSE Please repeat the question. ADV SIGODI I am saying, why I'm asking you about your sister is because of what you have stated in paragraph 10(b) at page 71 where you mention that the killings, why you killed people was because there were revenge killings and you also wanted to revenge because your sister had also been killed. I wanted to find out why you thought that your sister's killing was a result of the political difference. MR TSOTSETSE Though I cannot remember very well when she died, after her death I was arrested within a month. I was not talking about her incident because at least there was peace in the township at that time. ADV SIGODI I won't take that any further. You also mentioned that Mr Khumalo had asked you to kill his wife before. MR TSOTSETSE That is correct. ADV SIGODI Did he say why he wanted to have his wife killed? MR TSOTSETSE He did not explain but I think Khumalo's wife was against Khumalo's action, that is what I think because she ended up leaving Natalspruit for Thembisa and as he says that the comrades killed his wife, it's not possible for comrades from Thokoza or Natalspruit to go and kill his wife, he's the only person who knew that his wife was in Thembisa. ADV SIGODI So when he said to you you must go and shoot the people at Ngema Tavern, because they had killed his wife, you knew that was not true, isn't it so? MR TSOTSETSE Yes, I suspected that that was not true, but I did not have tangible proof. ADV SIGODI Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Adv Bosman? ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tsotsetse, just a few questions. Did you people who knew you in Natalspruit, did they perceive you to be IFP, did they know you were IFP? MR TSOTSETSE I won't know what was happening in their minds. ADV BOSMAN But did you ever come across them while you were working for Mr Khumalo? MR TSOTSETSE The person that I went with to Natalspruit was Mafulela and the other members of IFP. We went there to fetch my belongings at my home and it was during the day. ADV BOSMAN Okay. And you said that you were selling cars. Did you sell cars to particular people or to particular organisations apart from Mr Mafulela? MR TSOTSETSE No, I was not selling the cars to the organisation but I was just selling them to ordinary people. ADV BOSMAN When you took the cars to Mr Khumalo, did anybody give you money for it? MR TSOTSETSE What car are you talking about? ADV BOSMAN Well you said you were asked to steal cars. CHAIRPERSON It's the Corolla and the van. ADV BOSMAN And the van, yes. Did you ask for any money to do it? MR TSOTSETSE No. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR TSOTSETSE It's because those cars were not cars that I was selling and I was not expecting any money because I knew that those cars were going to be used in Sam Nduli's killing and I was instructed to leave the cars with Tereblanche and I was not expecting money, ... ADV BOSMAN Okay, continue. MR TSOTSETSE Because I knew as I was told that those cars were going to be used to kill Sam Nduli, it's not the cars that were needed by ordinary people. ADV BOSMAN So when you went to live with Mafulela, did you then stop selling cars to him? MR TSOTSETSE It became difficult for me to concentrate on these cars because of the situation prevailing in the townships at the time. ADV BOSMAN Okay. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any questions arising from questions that have been put by members of the Panel? Mr Tsotsetse thank you, that concludes your evidence. Mr Padi, are you calling any further witnesses? MR PADI No, I'm not calling any witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Are the applicants, none of the applicants calling any further witnesses? The victims? Mr Richard? MR RICHARD Chairperson, may I have a brief adjournment to speak to the victims to see if they still want to give evidence? MR MOTLOUNG Thank you, Mr Chairman. I would also seek the same indulgence. CHAIRPERSON Yes, alright. We'll take a short adjournment now then you can do your various consultations and let us know then whether we shall be hearing any further evidence. How long will you require? Well, just let us know but don't take too long. Thank you. We'll take a short adjournment now to enable legal representatives to discuss matters with their clients. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson, I call my first witness, who will be sworn. CHAIRPERSON Yes. What are you full names please? PRISCILLA MVELASE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD You run a tavern. Where is that tavern? MS MVELASE It is located in Ngema 321. MR RICHARD And is it the place that has been referred to as the Ngema Tavern in these hearings? MS MVELASE Yes. MR RICHARD Now, you've seen the applicant today and on other days. Before you saw him at the hearings, had you seen him before? MS MVELASE Yes, I've seen him before. MR RICHARD How many times? MS MVELASE It was twice. The third time, it was when they were coming to shoot at home. MR RICHARD What happened on the first time? MS MVELASE He arrived in November. I think my brother had just bought a car. He had heard from his friends then he came with his friends. It was Thabisa as well as Themba and Star, they were in the garage drinking some beer. When I got out there, I saw him doing funny things and I asked some of his friends to take him out. After a few days I'd heard that he is the one Thulani, and he came back again in December. That was in November the first time, the second time, December. He was chasing after a certain boy and this boy came into my premises and when I was going out to inquire as to what was happening and he said Thulani wants to take my car and I ask him not to take the car of the boy because he has already surrendered, he's been defeated by him for the fact that he fled and then in January, the 22nd, they came for a shoot-out. MR RICHARD So that covers both incidents before the shoot-out. The question that I asked was, what happened on the first occasion? And then the second occasion? CHAIRPERSON The second occasion was when he was chasing this boy and they got onto the premises. MS MVELASE Yes, that was the second time. MR RICHARD And why are you so certain that you recognise him? MS MVELASE Well, when the person approaches you or comes to you as a person who sells liquor and knows so many people in the neighbourhood, after he had left the house, I tried to establish as to who this person who was causing havoc was and I was informed that it is Thulani and I was always keeping watch over such people and he was one person who was so problematic in the area, that brought about my knowing the person and making sure that I acknowledge him and I heard that he was also part of the group that was ...(indistinct) and that was very true, because I have seen him, not only that I heard. MR RICHARD Now on the third occasion, where were you in the house? MS MVELASE I was seated in the dining room. MR RICHARD Now who came into the dining room? MS MVELASE Zimu entered, Thembinkosi as well, the one who is not present. There were four of them, Zimu and the one who's absent today referred to as Thembinkosi, I'm not sure if he's the Buthelezi, those are the ones who came in. CHAIRPERSON I think its Buthelezi, Thembinkosi Buthelezi. MS MVELASE Well, that's the one, the fourth one. MR RICHARD Now, what happened to you? What did they do to you? MS MVELASE You see I was unaware. I heard the gunshots and I was looking for the keys in the kitchen. I could not even locate where I had put the key and as I turned around from searching for the key and there the AK was facing and pointed at me. He wanted money and he left. He went to the dining room and they were so adamant in insisting that I must give them money and I told the other ones that the first one had already taken the money and they instructed all the children to lie down and the one was resistant and they insulted her and she was still adamant and resisting the fact that she won't lie down and they shot the TV and broke some other items in the house and left. INTERPRETER The speaker is so fast, the Interpreter finds it hard to keep pace. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Ms Mvelase, the translator said if you can just speak a little bit slower, she's having difficulty keeping up with what you're saying. She's got to translate at the same time as you're speaking. MR RICHARD Okay, carry on. MS MVELASE Zimu went out and after he got out, the fourth one went out, that is Buthelezi. After they went out, my last child came to me to find out as to what was happening. I wanted to escape or run away. Between the garage and the rooms there was Buthelezi and he turned around to us and said "Where are you going? What are you trying to do? Are you trying to run away? Come here." I went to him and he said: "Where is this "hi-fi" based?" and I showed him the room where I was, my bedroom in other words and he asked as to who was in there and I was instructed to switch off the "hi-fi", which I did. After a short while, I heard sounds of gunshots and I saw the ones that are here today, they were standing by the doorway and I fled back into the house. MR RICHARD And after the shooting was over, what did you do? Did you go into the garage to see what had happened? Did you? MS MVELASE Yes, I went back to the garage. Before I got into the door, I found the one who had been shot already in the head and the brains were scattered around the person who had been shot and suffered a gun wound to the head. I went straight out to the front and screamed, hysterically so, to alert the people in the neighbourhood and people did respond. MR RICHARD My last question, your tavern, was it particularly a place where ANC members frequented? MS MVELASE You see that was a tavern that entertained a whole lot of elderly folks, more than the youth. Any other person would come in and relax in the tavern. I'm not a card holder of the ANC, so that I will not even say that place only entertained the ANC patrons, but any person would come. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Richard. I think we'll just go down the line this time. Mr Padi? MR PADI Thank you Mr Chair. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PADI Ms Mvelase, how long have you been selling liquor at your place before the shooting took place? MS MVELASE I had started in 1986. MR PADI So during that time, the time of the shooting, was it, because I'm gathering this from your evidence that you gave in chief, that you kept track of the people who caused problems in your place. Was it the practice that you kept from that time, keeping track of the people who caused trouble at your place? MS MVELASE Well, that was not something that I was doing all the time, but it became a habit after I realised that the patrons now were youth more than any other age in the shebeen. MR PADI Just around the time of the incident, were there a lot of youth that were drinking in your place, is that your evidence? MS MVELASE Well no. MR PADI You just said that you started keeping track of the people who were causing problems in your place, because a lot of them were youth. Now my question is again, was there a lot of youth that were drinking at your place just before the shooting incident? MS MVELASE I had said I would make it a point that I discourage them and chase them away because I did not want to entertain the idea of entertaining the youth in my tavern, so that if it happens that there will be a youth, it will only be about two or three of them, not the whole lot. MR PADI Ms Mvelase you gave evidence that the first time you saw Thulani whom you are referring to as Thuleleni here, was when he came to your place with Thabisa and Themba and Star to drink at your place, is that your evidence? MS MVELASE Yes. MR PADI And you just said that you discourage youth from drinking at your place and you chase them away. Why didn't you chase them away on that day? MS MVELASE Well, they'd become my customers because they were a little bit older, although one could tell that he, Thuleleni was a bit young. MR PADI You are losing me Ms Mvelase. You said that the first time you saw Thulani at your place, that was when he came with Thabisa, Star and Themba and now you're saying that they were regular patrons at your place, that is why you did not chase them away. Can you clarify this? MS MVELASE Thabisa, Star, as well as Themba were my customers. I was asking them to leave the place because they brought with them the friend that I did not know and they did listen. They left immediately and they came back the following day to apologise why they had brought with them a youth, or a youngster. MR PADI Ms Mvelase, I'd like to, just for the sake of clarity, the garage where your patron would normally drink, is it attached to outside rooms? Are there any outside rooms other than the main house in your premises? MS MVELASE You see we have a four roomed house that was standing alone and we had the garage and there was a big window there at the garage and two windows that had two doors respectively and there was a door where people could come in the garage. CHAIRPERSON But the garage is a free standing building, it's not got one of its walls being part of the house, it stands alone? It's got four of its own walls although the front part might mainly be mostly doors. MS MVELASE You see, the garage formed an L because it was connected, or in conjunction with the rooms, it was connected with the rooms so they formed L towards the back. MR PADI Thank you Ms Mvelase. Now was the sound or the music that was playing in the garage, where was it operated from? MS MVELASE It was operated next to the room that I say is the garage, next to the garage, where my bedroom was. MR PADI Let me understand this. Is your bedroom one of the outside rooms? MS MVELASE Yes, the outside room. My bedroom was there, it was one of those two rooms. As it forms an L, then we'll have two rooms, plus the garage, that connects to the two rooms and one of the two rooms was my bedroom, that's where the "hi-fi" was being operated. MR PADI Okay. Now this person that you are referring to as Thuleleni, on the day of the incident in question, when did you see him for the first time? MS MVELASE You see, after they'd left the house, how I came to know about Thuleleni, it's because I saw them when they left because I followed after them. As I was inside the house, when I heard the gunshots, after they quietened down, I went out and they started counting them because I had only seen and recognised the two and the other two, I was informed by the people that the one was Thuleleni, of the two. MR PADI Other than Thuleleni, who else have you recognised? MS MVELASE Zimu I saw, Buthelezi as well. There was one who was standing at the door and facing to the outside, as I said that Zimu got out first and was followed by Buthelezi, when I tried to escape or to run away, they were standing there in the garage facing into the inside so that I could not see, I could not have been able to identify as to who those were because their backs only were facing to me or at me. MR PADI Ms Mvelase, my question was, at the day of the shooting, when did you see Thulani for the first time? MS MVELASE No, I did not see him, only my husband told me that Thuleleni was also present. At first I saw Thuleleni in November, I thought I explained that. MR PADI I'm only referring to the day in question. The day of the shooting, not the previous occasion. MS MVELASE Well, I did not see him on that day in question, but my husband told me that Thuleleni was also present because he's the one who fired the shots. MR PADI I put it to you Ms Mvelase, that he's the one who came to you, you met outside, near the outside rooms and he asked you where the "hi-fi" was being operated. What do you have to say to that? MS MVELASE He is telling a blatant lie. That's one thing of his that is highly infuriating me. MR PADI Ms Mvelase, the guy that you're referring to as Zimu, can you maybe try to briefly explain his role in the shooting? When did you see him and what is it exactly that he did on the day in question? MS MVELASE He is the one who pointed the gun at me and asked for money or demanded for money and I had to take it out and give it to him and he went to, proceeded to the dining room and found the kids sitting at the chairs and he instructed them to lie down and they ran into the bedroom and he broke the TV set and said to my sibling, or my sister, or brother, he should lie down and my sibling just looked at him and he threw the telephone receiver at him and left outside, to go to the garage. Immediately thereafter, this one emerged and I don't know even where he emerged from, from the bedroom, I don't even know when he gained entry into the bedroom as he was emerging then and he asked for money and I told him that the other comrade or the other colleague of his has the money already, or his friend. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mvelase, how much money did you hand over? MS MVELASE R180 or R185, I'm not quite too sure of the figure. MR PADI I put it to you Ms Mvelase, Mr Zimu did not ask for money from you, you voluntarily gave the money to him because of whatever it is that could have influenced you, be it the fear of them carrying guns, among other things. MS MVELASE No, he asked for money, he demanded that I give him money and he said I must give him the money and called me, he said I'm a bitch and I had the money here on my breast, in my body and I had to draw it out. MR PADI I have no further questions, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Padi. Mr Swanepoel, any questions? MR SWANEPOEL No questions, Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Westhuizen, any questions? MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Ms Mvelase, the are where you tavern is situated, during those days, would you say that was a predominantly ANC area, or people supporting ANC lived in that area? MS MVELASE We were quite mixed together because my neighbours were IFP card carriers, so one would say it was a mixture of both and one will like to recall the fact that there were no conflicts at the time, or violence for that matter. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Are you saying that - you say there was no violence at that stage? Are you referring to the whole of the East Rand? To which area are you referring, if you say there was no violence? MS MVELASE Well, I'm only attempting to explain and contradict Thuleleni's evidence that he had alleged that there were already conflicts at the time, that is not true. Only at that time did the conflicts begin. The fact that they came over to my house to shoot, that's when we heard subsequently that Khumalo's wife died, now they had to kill certain people to accompany Mrs Khumalo in her death. MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Mr Motloung, any questions that you'd like to ask? MR MOTLOUNG Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLOUNG CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma any questions? MR MAPOMA Just one, Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Ms Mvelase, may I ask, who are your neighbours who you say were members of the IFP? MS MVELASE Ngwenya was my neighbour and they were IFP members. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Richard? MR RICHARD None, Chairperson and no further witnesses. NO QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) Any questions Adv Sigodi, Adv Bosman. Yes, thank you very much Ms Mvelase, that concludes your testimony. You may stand down now. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. You say that's the last witness? MR RICHARD I confirm, no further witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I'm informed that there's going to be one further witness in this matter, but that witness is not available today unfortunately, but I have been told that that witness will be available to testify tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock, so we shall have no option but to adjourn until tomorrow morning with the view of starting at 9 o'clock at the same hall. You'll be back here at the JISS Centre and we'll start at 9 o'clock with the evidence of this witness. Thank you. So we'll then adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow. Please make sure that you're here on time because we won't be able to sit late tomorrow, we can only sit until lunch time. Thank you. Bye-bye. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS