amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-11-20 JISS CENTRE, MAYFAIR, JOHANNESBURG 4 MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT AM4032/96 BOTSWANA RAID (CONT) https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53991&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/2001120j.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning. The Panel in this matter has assembled now to continue this application and when we last adjourned it was for reasons of compassion, in order to allow one of the applicants, Mr Olifant, to make certain personal arrangements, and his application is the only one that now needs to be dealt with. Are the representatives the same people who were here the last time? Yes Mr Visser. MR VISSER Chairperson, it's Mr Coetser I think, my innings is over. I'm eight for ten wickets, as it were, so it's Mr Coetser to go on now. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I asked him to continue. MR COETSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, before we proceed with the present application, there is another matter which is on the Commission's roll for this week, that is the applicantion by Mr Olifant in relation to an incident concerning Rev Chikane. I would like to place on record at this moment in time, for the convenience of the Commission, that that application is withdrawn. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Coetser. Mr Coetser, are you calling Mr Olifant in respect of the Botswana Raid? MR COETSER Yes, I am. He is ready to testifiy now. CHAIRPERSON What language would he prefer to use? MR COETSER Mr Olifant would prefer and be prepared to speak English. MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetser, where would I find Mr Olifant's application in the bundle? MR COETSER The application is to be found from pages 1 through to pages 24 of the first bundle. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, I was looking in terms of his name as it appears on the front page. Yes, proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR COETSER Thank you. Mr Olifant, just to cofirm your application for amnesty with regard to this matter is contained, as has been explained, from pages 1 through to pages 24 of the first bundle in this application. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER And for practical purposes there are two statements setting out the factual situation in relation to your application. The first one is an extract from a more generalised statement, and that runs from pages 16 through to pages 21. Is that right? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER And then the other statement runs from page 22 to page 24. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER Before we deal with the statements particularly, there are just one or two other aspects hat I would like to canvass with you. First of all, is it correct that at the time of the particular incident we are dealing with, this Botswana Raid in 1985, you were in fact employed in terms of a contract of employment with the South African Police Services, as an agent. MR OLIFANT That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER And this contract with the South African Police Services as an agent, was intended by all parties to be an interim arrangement, pending the finalisation and successful application to become appointed a Constable in the South African Police Serves. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER And at the time of this particular incident the process was proceeding within the South African Police Services, to have you appointed a Constable. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR COETSER So in relation to this incident it was in your capacity as a contracted agent that you acted for the South African Police Services. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER Right. Now if we look at the statements concerned, if we look at the first one ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetser, he's only making application in respect of any offences that occurred resulting from his activities in the Botswana Raid, that we're dealing with now? MR COETSER Yes, that is true. If one looks at page 17 of the bundle, paragraph 1 of your first statement, you mention here that prior to the raid in Botswana you were instructed by then Lieut Willem Coetzee to enter Botswana in order to verify information provided to Security Forces, concerning the whereabouts of ANC cadres and the existence or not of safehouses where they resided. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR COETSER And you describe in the statement further that you proceeded to do this and you reported back to Lieut Coetzee. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER In your second statement, that is from pages 23 to 24 of the bundle, starting from paragraph 8, you also describe that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just repeat that, page? MR COETSER It is page 23 of the bundle, paragraph 8 onwards, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR COETSER You also describe that during 1985, as a result of dealing with a certain informer, eventually in May 1985, Coetzee instructed you to go to Botswana to observe certain houses which had been shown to you by this informer during visists there. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR COETSER You were given specific addresses, a specific address or addresses in Gabarone North and Broadhurst, and you were instructed to spend six to seven days observing these houses, which you did, and then you provided your briefing insofar as what you observed, to Coetzee thereafter. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER So in essence, if one combines these two statements it is apparent that you were instructed by Coetzee to go and hold observation in Botswana, more particularly Gaberone and surrounds, based on information provided by the Security Forces and information provided by an informer, and the whole idea was in essence, to observe apparent ANC activity going on in Gaberone and surrounds and to report this back. MR OLIFANT That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER And that is what you did. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER Besides for these two instances concerned, were there other times when you went to Botswana to perform this task? Over time. MR OLIFANT Come again. MR COETSER Can you remember, besides for these two specific incidents when you went to hold observation, whether there were other incident, perhaps before that that you went to hold observation? MR OLIFANT No, no, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER Okay. CHAIRPERSON Now Mr Coetser, I'm just wondering here, the reconnaissance that he refers to are two separate incidents, are both related to the attack which forms the subject matter of this application, or only one of them? MR COETSER Mr Chairman, my instructions are that from Mr Olifant, generally speaking, was that he was instructed to do things effectively on a need-to-know basis. So ... CHAIRPERSON Did both of these sets of, or occasions or reconnaissance, occur prior to the attack that we're talking about? MR COETSER Yes, that is apparent. How this particular information was used by others will obviously need to form the basis of explanation by others, but these explanations are being given and this testimoney has been provided, because logic would seem to dictate that given the time period and the time frame within which he performed these observational tasks, that they were ultimately tied in with the raid. But from an evidential point of view, I would submit that is something ultimately for the Commission to decide, whether inferences to that effect may be drawn or not. Alright. Then to continue, otherwise the content of these particular statements, the factual material contained therein, do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER Okay. Just to continue on one or two aspects. You described how eventually you were advised by your employers and your immediate superiors that you were to be taken to undergo some training with military personnel for the purposes of a raid in Botswana. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was that after your intrusion into Botswana? MR OLIFANT No, before we could enter Botswana. CHAIRPERSON No, I'm talking about your reconnaissance escapades. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson, after I had gone to Botswana to observe the houses. CHAIRPERSON You went there twice? MR OLIFANT I went more than - I went once for observation and after I had come back I stayed plus-minus three months and thereon I was called by Mr Coetzee, who instructed Mr Anton Pretorius in order to take me somewhere in the area of Hammanskraal. CHAIRPERSON Look, you've just testified about the two occasions you went to observe ANC people, where they stayed and their activities, on two different occasions. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON All I want to know is that you were later informed that you were required to go through what seems like a crash course by the military, all I want to know is that, when you were informed that you had to go to this crash course, was that after both your intrusions into Botswana? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN If I heard you correctly you said about three months later, after the last reconnaissance. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Malan. CHAIRPERSON Now what were you informed? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON What were you told what's going to happen? What must you do? MR OLIFANT When I went to Botswana? CHAIRPERSON No, when you were called now for this training. MR OLIFANT Well initially I was not informed that I would be going for a training, I'd just been told that no, I should just go to - Mr Pretorius must just take me into Hammanskraal and thereon I will see what will happen. CHAIRPERSON I must say I didn't get that impression, I thought you were told that you were going to have to go get some training with the military. MR OLIFANT No, I was not informed before. CHAIRPERSON What did you think you were going to go to there? MR OLIFANT Well I did not know exactly what I would be doing there. The only thing, when Mr Coetzee told Mr Pretorius that Mr Pretorius should take me to Hammanskraal where I will be a sort of like briefing member of the Military Intelligence. On my arrival there I saw lots of members from Army and ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. Thank you. MR COETSER You have given a description in your two statements insofar as what happened when you were taken to the South African Defence Force base at Hammanskraal, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER And there you eventually found out more detail as to what was to happen, namely that there was going to be this raid by the military into Botswanaa, to attack various physical targets and you were given training insofar as that is concerned. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What kind of training? MR OLIFANT It was attacking houses and defending ourselves in case of any eventuality. MR COETSER And is it correct that you were advised that the function that you were required to perform during the course of this raid, was to point out a certain house or houses that were going to be targets of this raid? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER Now you have described here - if I can refer to paragraph 6, page 18 of the record, right at the bottom, that you were informed that the raid was to take place on a certain date but that the operation was delayed for a day, as the military were waiting for a certain General to give the final go-ahead for the mission, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER Now this General eventually arrived at Hammanskraal and advised that this operation had been authorised by the Cabinet. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON By the? MR COETSER Cabinet. CHAIRPERSON Cabinet? MR COETSER Yes. It's contained in the statement. Were there any other final instructions given by this General? CHAIRPERSON Who said so? MR COETSER I'm sorry? CHAIRPERSON Who utttered those words? Who informed you that the Cabinet had sanctioned this attack? MR OLIFANT Well when we ought to leave to Botswana a certain General who had come there with a helicopter. CHAIRPERSON What's his name? MR OLIFANT I can't remember - well I did not know his name at all. CHAIRPERSON How do you know he's a General? MR OLIFANT Well there was an introduction before the assembly. CHAIRPERSON How was he introduced? MR OLIFANT A certain Commandant was in charge of the camp and he informed us all that a General from Pretoria would lbe arriving at any time now and we should all be ready because he's going to address us on a matter of Botswana. CHAIRPERSON You see Mr Olifant, and I don't mean to sound like I'm pressurising, but it's become a trait of applicants to say or to refer to people as "a certain General" or "a certain Commandant", without identifying these people. Now you've made two important statements, one, that a certain Commandant informed you and others that a particular General would come to address you, you don't know the identity of either, but the importance of that is that one of them, I think it was the General who says: "Look, the Cabinet has sanctioned this attack". Now it's important for us to know those things. Can you not help us? MR OLIFANT The Commandant, his name was called Commandant Naude from Military Intelligence. CHAIRPERSON From Military Intelligence. MR OLIFANT And that was the person that was in charge of the camp. CHAIRPERSON In Hammanskraal? MR OLIFANT In Hammanskraal - well let's just say opposite Hammanskraal, because it was the outskirts of Hammanskraal. CHAIRPERSON Ja, and can you perhaps remember the name of the General now? MR OLIFANT I cannot remember - well I can't remember his name totally. The day we were supposed to depart to Botswana, the General who came by helicopter to the camp told us that we cannot go through to Botswana before the superior structure could approve the matter. First we were to - we had to wait for a day in order to get instructions from the Cabinet. And the following day at around about ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR OLIFANT For a day. CHAIRPERSON For permission from a superior structure? MR OLIFANT Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Then ...(indistinct - no microphone) that it was the Cabinet that had granted this approval? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR BERGER I'm sorry Chairperson, we can't hear you because your microphone is off. CHAIRPERSON Sorry. Let's start again. You were informed by this General who arrived by helicopter that the raid could not take place because of the lack of approval from a superior structure. When eventually you poeple were told that you can now go across and do what you wanted to do, you were then told by the same person that approval has now been forthcoming from the Cabinet? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was the superior structure and the Cabinet the same structure? MR OLIFANT Well to me that appeared to be the same thing. MR COETSER This particular General, did he give the operatives, the military operatives that he addressed when advising that clearance had been given for the raid, did he give them any specific instructions as to how the raid was to be carried out, what they were to do? MR OLIFANT No, the military personnel knew what to do. MR COETSER Were any instructions given insofar as what the military were to do or how they were to deal with people found in the houses that had been targeted for attack? MR OLIFANT Well the General who came by helicopter, he never disclosed anything concerning what to do in Botswana, but during our five days in Hammanskraal we were actually taught what to do. Like for instance, when you go into a house, you just break into a house and the next thing whoever you found there you will just shoot and ... CHAIRPERSON Anybody? MR OLIFANT Anybody. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR OLIFANT Well that was never been mentioned about a five year old and all this, but whoever you found in a house, it's a woman, man, you should just shoot. CHAIRPERSON Why ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR OLIFANT Because according to the information, you see, according to the information we had received is this, people who stayed in those houses were all armed and they were all members of MK, Umkhonto weSizwe. CHAIRPERSON And those decisions ...(indistinct - no microphone) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not activated. CHAIRPERSON Those decisions to kill everybody in whichever house is attacked, could not be deviated because as I understand your evidence the occupants of those houses were regarded as armed MK members. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now what would happen if you found a six year old child sleeping in bed? Surely he couldn't be regarded as armed and dangerous and a member of MK? MR OLIFANT Well as an individual a person had to think what to do whenever ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, but didn't they discuss it there before and say: "Look here, women and children are excluded? Or children, for that matter. MR OLIFANT Well I can't exactly remember whether there's stuff about children or what will happen to the children, but I know for a fact that with my experience it's that whenever you come across to a child there, you always have to, you know, safeguard the child. CHAIRPERSON During that five days of sojourn outside, or at Hammanskraal, where you got your training, was that never mentioned that "our attack is a clean attack, it's a political attack and we're not to injure or kill children"? MR OLIFANT Well I cannot remember whether they spoke about such an incident or not, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well you were trained, can you tell us whether you were trained in that? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, it was actually my first time to meet the Military Intelligence in my life ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, I'm not talking about whether you met them for the first time, I'm asking you about your training. Were you taught to exclude children? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, I can't remember whether they spoke about such a matter or not. CHAIRPERSON Why can't you remember that? MR OLIFANT Well it has been a long time, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But surely if it's something important like that, you would remember? And that happened in 1985, nowhere in the world at that time, to my knowledge, could it be said that children are a danger. It may be true today in Sierra Leone, but not that time. MR OLIFANT Well I cannot remember, Mr Chairperson, I'm being honest with you. CHAIRPERSON This is not the only hearing that I've been involved in and the same can be said about my colleagues here, time and time again we've been told by applicants who were working with the Security Forces of the time, that in general it was a cardinal rule that innocent women and children were not targets. That's why I'm asking you, were you not told during that brief training session that you had, that this was the case? MR OLIFANT Like I'm saying that no, I cannot remember whether they spoke about the children or not, but - well I can't remember. CHAIRPERSON Anyway you say you were taken on this trip just to point out houses? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Coetser. MR COETSER Thank you Mr Chairman. If we move on to your description and your two statements as to what happened during the course of the raid, you say, for example at paragraph 8, that's page 19 of the record ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Of the bundle? MR COETSER It's the main bundle, paragraph 8, second paragraph down on page 19. ... that: "The Sergeant and I stayed at the President Hotel and we identified our target during the day." What I'd like to ask you here is, in addition to you identifying your target to the Sergeant that you were answerable to, were you requested by the military during the course of that day, to assist other groups to go and identify their targets' houses? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Which other groups were there? I thought they were all military. MR OLIFANT Well when we entered Botswana we divided ourselves, each unit consisted of plus-minus four/five members. CHAIRPERSON All military? MR OLIFANT That's right, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER Can you remember how many other targets you were requested to go and assist in identifying during the day? MR OLIFANT There were only - if I could still remember properly, there were only three. MR COETSER Then you continue to say that insofar as a particular target is concerned of the group that you were attached to, that evening you were in fact not able to locate that particular target. MR OLIFANT Most of the targets we actually, I actually showed to other members during the day. MR COETSER But your target that evening you were unable to locate after dark, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's right, yes, it was outside of the town. MR COETSER So the end result of that was that the target of the unit to whom you were attached didn't in fact attack that particular target? MR OLIFANT No, it wasn't. MR COETSER Okay. MR MALAN Just before you proceed, did you accompany that group that night? MR OLIFANT No, no, no, Mr Malan, I never accompanied them, only I showed during the day that okay, here are the targets and that was it. MR MALAN So you did not go out during the night? MR OLIFANT No, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN You stayed where? MR OLIFANT Excuse me. I was actually selected into one of the units which was supposed to have attacked a certain target, outskirts of Gaberone, but during that night since it was dark and the way to the target it was so difficult, we could not locate our target and as we did not want to just go into any other target, we preferred to actually withdraw from that target and we, threw communications with the radio we asked the Commandant who was actually in charge of the area, whether we could just leave the target as it was and the Commandant agreed to that. MR MALAN I think you misunderstood me, I was asking whether you were accompanying that group that failed to locate your specific target that night. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN So you were supposed to be part of the attacking group? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN But you could not find the target? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN And you then withdrew back to base, or where did you withdraw to? MR OLIFANT Well there was a place between Gaberone and Klokweni border that's not far from Oasis Motel, where everybody after attacking his target, whatever, was supposed to convene and man a roadblock. MR MALAN Okay. So you were not involved in any contact situation in Botswana? MR OLIFANT No, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Thank you Mr Coetser. MR COETSER Just to clarify this one aspect, if you had found your target and your particular group had carried out an attack, what were you advised your role was to be during that attack? MR OLIFANT It was actually to keep observation, it was to back up the unit who would be going into the house. That was my role. MR COETSER After the raid had been completed, you describe and state in your statement how you returned and you advised your superiors as to what had occurred. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER You mentioned here that you received a sum of R1 500 from Lieut Coetzee, that R1 500, was that a special payment for taking part in the raid, or was that part and parcel of your ordinary remuneration that you received as an agent? MR OLIFANT Well it was actually, it was an additional amount of my salary. My salary was actually about R600-and-something a month, but after the raid there was an actual additional amount which I was given by Mr Coetzee, which all together amounted to R1 500. MR OLIFANT Why? Why did you get that money? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Why did you get that extra money? MR OLIFANT Well I cannot answer why did he give me that money. CHAIRPERSON Why did you take it then? Why did you take it, why did you think you were taking it? MR OLIFANT Well it was inside the envelope after all and it was a sealed envelope, so I took it and I realised after that no, it was an extra amount of money ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No come Mr Olifant, people don't just in your situation, take sealed envelopes, as a matter of fact you don't know if there's a bomb inside. Why did you take that money? What did you think it was for? Or let's put it this way, when you finally opened this envelope and you saw how much money there was, why didn't you return it? MR OLIFANT Well I took it because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why? That's what I'm trying to ... MR OLIFANT Maybe it was to thank me for what I have done, I don't know, I wouldn't say. ...(indistinct), Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was it not an extra payment for your escape into Botswana? Not so? It certainly looks like it, isn't it? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson, I won't ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And did you accept it as such? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson, I accepted it. CHAIRPERSON So you were paid for your part in the attack? MR OLIFANT Well as it appeared, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Coetser. MR COETSER Thank you. Just finally on this aspect, prior to you going on this raid, did you at any time demand from your superiors, for example, Lieut Coetzee, that you be paid extra to go on this raid or that you receive a separate payment to go on this raid, or demand that you be paid separately to go on this raid or anything like that? MR OLIFANT No, Mr Chairperson, because first of all I did not know that I will be taking part in this raid. CHAIRPERSON Mr Olifant, when you went to Botswana you were not connected in any formal way to the military, not so? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And this whole attack was a military operation. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON One can understand that you were waiting to be appointed as a Constable of the Police Services, not so? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON For which you received a meagre amount per month, correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So isn't it that you were not connected to the military and that when you went with the military into Botswana that day, you went there as a private person, because the police could not go into Botswana, is that not so? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, when I went there I went in the capacity of being a member of the Intelligence. CHAIRPERSON Of what? MR OLIFANT Police Intelligence. CHAIRPERSON But the police could not go into Botswana. MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The Cabinet decision could only have been approval for the military operation, is that not so? The Cabinet would not sanction a police intrusion into Botswana. MR OLIFANT Well I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson, but ... CHAIRPERSON So you could only have gone into Botswana with the military as a private person, because you were not connected to the military. Is that not so? MR OLIFANT Well I got instructions from my superior, not because I wanted actually to be credited as a ... I was just ought to become a Constable. CHAIRPERSON But then explain this then, if you were there on instruction of your superior in the Police Force, why were you paid that extra thousand rand or so? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Coetzee will answer for that, I don't know why they did give ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well why did you take it? Why did you use it? MR OLIFANT Well I don't deny the fact that I've taken that money, yes. CHAIRPERSON I know you can't deny it, I'm asking you why? CHAIRPERSON Are you able to tell us? MR OLIFANT I'm unable, Mr Chairperson, to tell you about that, why did I take it, because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Even the logical conclusion you can't render, that you took it as payment as a private person assisting the military in their intrusion into Botswana, and you did it for money. I'm giving you an opportunity to explain it, because the most natural conclusion one has to come to in the circumstances is that you did it as a mercenary. I'm offering you the opportunity to explain it in some other way. MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, I never asked any money to Mr Coetzee when I came back from Botswana. MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC COMMENTS FROM AUDIENCE I never asked any money ...(intervention) MR COETSER Just stop there a minute please. CHAIRPERSON Will whoever is speaking ...(intervention) MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC COMMENTS FROM AUDIENCE CHAIRPERSON Will the gentleman please keep quiet, this is a formal hearing and if you want to ask questions, you do it through an attorney. Again I'm going to repeat myself now. I'm offering you an opportunity to give us an explanation to avoid us coming to certain conclusions. This money that you took and received, what was that for? Did you not go back to whoever gave it to you and say: "There's too much money in my envelope, why are you giving me more money?"? MR OLIFANT Well I never went back to Coetzee and asked whether ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We know that now. I'm asking you why didn't you go back if you didn't know what this money was for. MR OLIFANT Well honestly, I can't answer Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Coetser. MR COETSER This money was given to you by Lieut Coetzee, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER And at the time that you received your envelope concerned, did you understand this to be your salary payment that you were being given? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER What you discovered of course was that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Coetser, that's a very convenient question and your client readily accepts it, let us find out what he thought. I've been trying for the last 15 minutes to find out what he thought when he received this extra money. MR COETSER Alright, let me put it another way. That envelope of money that you received in that particular month, were you paid two monthly salaries for that month, or only one? MR OLIFANT It was for two months salary. MR COETSER Now what I'm talking about is, for that particular month did Mr Coetzee give you a double payment for that month, or was your salary for that month included in the R1 500 that you received from him? MR OLIFANT It was my salary. In my salary it was an additional amount of money which was actually unaccountable for. MR COETSER Okay. CHAIRPERSON I thought you just told us it was two months salary, are you just being an opportunist? Come on now, Mr Olifant, you're here to tell the truth. MR OLIFANT No, I misunderstood, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It's up to you whether you're going to tell us the truth or not. I'm going to give you one more chance, your Advocate has tried also. What was that extra money for? You don't know. MR OLIFANT Well to me it appeared that Mr Coetzee was actually giving me extra money for ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON For what? MR OLIFANT For work which I've done. CHAIRPERSON Which work? MR OLIFANT You know for me going to Botswana and ... CHAIRPERSON Did he tell you that? MR OLIFANT No, he never said anything about it. CHAIRPERSON You never enquired? MR OLIFANT Well it was not much to say that time you know, I didn't have the right to ask him: "Why do you have to give money ...(indistinct)". CHAIRPERSON You were still under contract at the time? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You didn't even ask him: "Look, am I now formally appointed as Constable, that's why I've got an increase like this"? MR OLIFANT No, I didn't ask, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ja, 'cause you knew you weren't appointed as yet, not so? You weren't appointed that time. MR OLIFANT No, I wasn't. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Coetser. MR COETSER Thank you. Then just to summarise the issue, the facts on this issue. The way I understand them is, you were instructed by your superiors, as part of your employment as an agent, to join the military for the purposes of this raid that they were intending to do. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER Okay. No discussions were had insofar as any extra remuneration is concerned, for doing that. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER You did what you were instructed to do, you were informed what you were required to do and upon your return you were given your salary for that month, but you discovered that in your envelope there was an additional amount. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER You came to the conclusion that that additional amount was paid to you for the work that you carried out insofar as the raid is concerned. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR COETSER Alright. And that was a payment, well obviously it was a payment from the South African Police Services to you. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is that true? Is that correct? MR OLIFANT It is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was the South African Police not conduit for the payment from the military? I ask the question, we don't know. Carry on. MR COETSER Well let me ask the question, can you say whether the additional money that you received in your envelope had been given to Lieut Coetzee from anybody in the military? MR OLIFANT The money was from the SAP, not from the MI. MR COETSER Do you mean to say that what you know is that the money was given to you by Lieut Coetzee? MR OLIFANT That's correct, not from the - from the SAP, not from Mr Coetzee, but from the SAP. He was only the mediator between ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How do you know that, you never spoke to Coetzee about the extra money? MR OLIFANT Ja, but Mr Chairperson, Mr Coetzee, he had no access of any Military Intelligence funds, the only funds which he had, it was from the SAP funds. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Coetser. JUDGE MOTATA Is that not an assumption you are making? You don't know what was discussed behind, because even yourself getting to join the military where you got some training, you did not know beforehand what it was for when you were taken there. Now when you received this extra money, extra to your salary, you are making an assumption that it is from the South African Police, you don't have an idea about that, only Mr Coetzee probably knew. MR OLIFANT Well I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA You may proceed, Mr Coetser. MR COETSER Thank you, Judge. Mr Chairman, at this moment in time I would like to make Mr Olifant available for the purposes of general questioning that the Panel insofar as his role is concerned. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. Mr Olifant I don't quite understand, you say that you only went to Botswana on two occasions. Did I understand that correctly, or am I wrong? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER You see because I was under the impression that you went with the informer that you spoke about to Botswana, sometimes three or four times a week I think is what you said. I'm just trying to find it, Chairperson. MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, for Botswana raid I went two times, once when the source had gone to pinpoint the places and the second time when I went on my own, while the third time was when I went with all the personnel, military personnel. MR VISSER Yes. It's at page 23, paragraph 8. Would this then be incorrect if you said there "I used to transport her (referring to the informer) to Lesotho and Botswana almost three to four times a week. During our visits to those countries, Willem Coetzee used to tell that she must show me houses where the most wanted suspects stayed." Are you saying that if you divide up your trips between Lesotho and Botswana, Botswana took only two of your trips, is that what you're saying? MR MALAN Mr Visser, I think the misunderstanding is that in the beginning we talked about two, call it groups of events going into Botswana, the onew as with the military, the other was with the informer. Later it was said that he went into Botswana twice on the raid expedition, one with the intelligence gathering and the pointing out and the second with the actual raid. But I never understood him to say that he in all his activities, referring to both paragraphs, he only entered Botswana twice. MR VISSER Well you see that's really the point. Do you agree with Mr Malan that you had gone to Botswana as an agent of the Intelligence Unit of Soweto, on more than two occasions? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER What I want to ask you is, did you penetrate any of the ANC structures in Botswana? MR OLIFANT Well to be - to clarify the whole matter as it is, I used to go to Botswana for some other matters, not precisely this one of the raid. Now whenever I mention here that I used to go to Botswana once, twice a week, what all, I'm trying to actually ...(indistinct) everything together. MR VISSER Yes, I follow that. MR MALAN Mr Olifant, the question is whether you penetrated - in all these entrances into Botswana whith your informer, whether you penetrated any of the ANC structures? MR OLIFANT No, no. MR VISSER Alright. Now did you know at the time of the Botswana raid, or did you hear subsequently which targets had been attacked on the night of the 14th of June 1985? MR OLIFANT Well the names of the targets - the names of the people who were living at the ...(indistinct) targets which I had kept observation at, I cannot remember presently. MR VISSER No, no, I'm not asking you whether you reemmber, I'm simply asking you whether you heard aftewards or whether you knew at the time which targets had been attacked by the military. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER And were they the same targets as the ones that you kept observation on and that you gave information about to ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT Some of the targets, Mr Chairperson, were exactly targets which I had identified to the Military Intelligence. MR VISSER My question, you interrupted me before I finished, were there then some of those targets that were attacked on that night, about which you had given information to Coetzee about beforehand? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Now we come to the question of remembering. Can you remember which targets they were or can't you? MR OLIFANT I cannot remember, but I know for a fact it was in Gaberone North and Braodhurst. MR VISSER Yes. And the second part to that question is this, did the targets that were attacked that you had previously given information about to Coetzee, also include persons and not only installations? MR OLIFANT Well people living in those targets, really honest, I did not know them, I only knew the houses and the names. MR VISSER Let me then ask you the question like this. Previously when you went in to go and do observations, were you also asked by Coetzee to observe certain people in Botswana, the movement of certain people in Botswana? MR OLIFANT To observe people in those certain addresses, yes, I do agree. MR VISSER Can you remember any of the names of such people? MR OLIFANT No, I cannot remember the names. CHAIRPERSON How would Coetzee ask you to survey or observe the activities of a particular person? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, what Mr Coetzee did is this, he gave me the addresses, he gave me the address and say: "Okay fine, so and so is staying here and ...(indistinct)". He used to give as well the vehicle which he used to drive and plus-minus a description of that particular person. CHAIRPERSON A description? MR OLIFANT A description, yes. CHAIRPERSON How would you be able to identify the house in which such a person stayed? MR OLIFANT Well what I did is just to go to a particular address and verify whether the number of the address and the description which I got from Coetzee would match. CHAIRPERSON How would you do that? Would you just walk up to the house and knock on the door and say: "Well I'm from the South African Police Intelligence, can you please identify yourself"? MR OLIFANT No, well I will always keep at a distance and try to plus-minus stay about 1 hour, in order to check what's going on, the movement of the house, whether ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, we're not talking about that, we're talking about the identification of people and places. How would Coetzee get his message across to you that he wants information about Mr X, where he stays, with who he associates and what he gets up to? You don't know the identity of this person, how would Coetzee convey to you his instructions then? MR OLIFANT Well if the address is the same as I was given by Mr Coetzee and maybe a vehicle which will be in the yard or by coincidence it will be a vehicle coming out or going in with the registration number which I got from Mr Coetzee, plus-minus I will try to even look at a person, whether it will suit from what I had got from Coetzee, and then that was it. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Visser. MR VISSER But Mr Olifant ...(intervention) JUDGE MOTATA May I just interpose Mr Visser? When you came back from Botswana the first time whilst you were doing work for the Police Intelligence, you gave a report back to Coetzee, I think that's what you said at some stage, or in your papers - would I be right? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA What report were you giving after spending six days in Botswana, what did you say to Coetzee, what have you observed? MR OLIFANT What I had seen in this specific address which he actually send me to go keep ...(intervention) JUDGE MOTATA These persons whom he gave you a description of, what did you say about those persons? MR OLIFANT That: "I've seen those people and the description which you gave to me, it really suit to what I've seen, or this did not suit", you know. JUDGE MOTATA Now this informer you firstly went with to Botswana, showing you houses, did she tell you who those houses were occupied by? MR OLIFANT She only said that it were occupied by members of the ANC. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you, you may proceed Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Would it be convenient for us to take a short tea adjournment? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Visser. MR COETSER ADDRESSES Mr Chairman sorry, if I may say something before we proceed with the process. Unfortunately I do appreciate that the Commission does not have the assistance of court orderlies to effect discipline in these proceedings, but in all fairness to Mr Olifant in endeavouring to assist the Commission and deriving at the truth with regard to this particular incident, I must report that during the tea break certain individuals in the public gallery have taken it upon themselves to shout comments directly to Mr Olifant. I do appreciate that these are emotional times, that the evidential material that is being disclosed certainly is likely to upset people and I can understand that, but I would ask the Commission if the public gallery could be advised to exercise a sufficient degree of restraint in order that positions of people who are applicants in this matter, such as Mr Olifant, are not made to feel unecessarily uncomfortable in assisting the Commission in the process concerned. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON It has just been reported to me that the applicant, while he is still under oath in fact, has been interferred with during the short break that we've just had. I would thank everyone, including members of the public, to desist from doing so. In addition, before we broke for the tea adjournment I noticed on a few occasions prior to that, spates of emotional outbursts during the period of the applicant gtestifying. I would ask everyone, including members of the public, to stop doing that and any continuance of either will be regarded as contemptuous to this Commission. Thank you, Mr Coetser. Mr Visser. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER (cont) Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Olifant, we've just reached the stage where I was going to ask you, did Mr Coetzee also expect you to keep observation of certain individuals of whom he gave you the names? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you remember any of those names? MR OLIFANT Well one of the names is Abrahams. MR VISSER Abrahamse? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. And others I can't recall them. There were about - altogether there were about three houses which I identified in Botswana. MR VISSER Yes, well I'm not talking about houses now, I'm talking about people. About how many people were you observing in Botswana at the time in 1985? MR OLIFANT Oh well he never really gave me the names of the people, if that's a ...(indistinct), he only gave me the house and the surnames. MR VISSER No, I thought I was actually asking you whether he gave you names or people and I thought you said yes. MR OLIFANT No, I misunderstood you, Mr Chairperson, I apoligise. CHAIRPERSON And where did Abrahams come from? MR OLIFANT That's one of the names which he gave to me. MR MALAN Mr Olifant you said he gave you only the house and the surnames ... MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN ... now for purposes of these questionings, name and surname is the same thing. The question is, did he give you the surnames of any individuals, apart from Abrahams? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, he gave me the addresses and the surnames. MR MALAN Now you said one of the surnames was Abrahams. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN The question is, can you remember any other surnames? MR OLIFANT No, I cannot remember, Mr Chiarperson. MR VISSER Well, can I with reference to Exhibit B, ask you whether any of the names that I will mention to you rings a bell as someone that you observed and gave information about to Mr Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON Exhibit B? MR VISSER B for Bravo, yes. It's the little extract of page 93 of the ANC's representation to the TRC, Chairperson. I will read them to you: "Ahmed Geer" does it ring a bell? Left-hand side of the page, on the top. Number 2: "Ahmed Geer" does that ring a bell with you? MR OLIFANT No. MR VISSER Number 3 "Michael Hamlyn" MR OLIFANT No, I can't remember him. MR VISSER Well I'm not asking you to remember or to try to remember the information, what you knew about such a person, I'm only asking you whether any of the names that I'm calling out to you rings a bell as someone that you had something to do with as far as your observations were concerned. Now, "Michael Hamlyn", does that ring a bell with you? MR OLIFANT No. MR VISSER Alright, I will leave out 4 and 5. "Duke Mashobane" MR OLIFANT No. MR VISSER "Joseph Malaza" MR OLIFANT Malaza ...(inaudible). No. MR VISSER You seem doubtful about Mr Hamlyn and Mr Malaza, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, ja. Malaza and the first one .... MR VISSER Hamlyn? MR OLIFANT Yes, you know I can try and recollect something about them. MR VISSER So they do ring a bell with you, alright. And then 14 "Harry Mnyele" or "Tamie Mnyele" MR OLIFANT No. MR VISSER Number 15 "Dick Mtsweni" MR OLIFANT No. MR VISSER No 17 "George Pahle" MR OLIFANT No. MR VISSER Number 18 "Lindi Pahle" MR OLIFANT No. MR VISSER Now some other names. Tim Williams? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR VISSER You remember Tim Williams. And a person by the name of Gilder? MR OLIFANT No. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Olifant, you say in your amnesty application at page 1, that you supported the government of the day in 1985. Would that have been the South African Government that you supported? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why? Why did you support the South African Government? MR OLIFANT Well as a member of the Intelligence, I had no right to go contra to their principles, to the government's principles. CHAIRPERSON Why, because they were your employer? MR OLIFANT Well I was a member of the South African Government, so I had to abide to the ... CHAIRPERSON At the time, Mr Olifant, you were a contracted agent, that's all you were, I want to know why you felt yourself as a supporter of the South African Government, whose policy was apartheid. Is it because they employed you? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, you know to clear up that point where I had to be contracted, Mr Coetzee when he thought about giving me a contract in the Police Force, it's because I had been transferred from South West Africa into Johannesburg. So in the interim I had not been enrolled into the South African Police ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Where did you come from? MR OLIFANT Namibia. I was a member of Koevoet. CHAIRPERSON Koevoet, ja. MR OLIFANT So ...(indistinct) was a way of actually sort of like giving me a monthly salary. In that regard, whenever Mr Coetzee he put me as - he actually temporarily made a contract with me in the South African Police, it was just because you know, I had to earn a salary on a monthly basis. That was it. Not because I went there ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why did you support the South African Government of the day? MR OLIFANT Like I've said, Mr Chairperson, I was a member ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Of what? MR OLIFANT Of the Intelligence. So I had to abide. CHAIRPERSON I see. Yes, carry on Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Olifant, you say you had to abide. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER My question is, did you support the policies of the South African Government in 1985? MR OLIFANT The policies? No, I didn't support at all. MR BERGER So would it be correct to say that your actions were not political? Or let me - sorry, your actions were not politically motivated. MR OLIFANT Well whatever I did I did under instructions from my seniors, that is it. So ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, listen to the question, it's a very important question. Whatever you did was not motivated politically from a personal viewpoint, as opposed to merely complying with the requirements of your job. Have I got the gist of your question? MR BERGER Exactly, yes Chairperson. MR OLIFANT I would say yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Excuse me? MR BERGER Is your answer "yes, in whatever I did I was not politically motivated"? CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, I think to be quite fair to the witness, from the ...(indistinct), from the personal point of view I think you mean to say, because it could be interpreted in complying with his job description, that provided the political motivation itself. MR BERGER Yes. Mr Olifant, is it your evidence that whatever you did, and in particular what you did in relation to the attack on Gaberone, was not motivated by personal political feeling? MR OLIFANT No. MR BERGER It was not motivated by politics? MR OLIFANT No, it was instructions from my senior. That is it. MR BERGER And would that be because you disagreed with the government's policy of apartheid? MR OLIFANT Well I had no right to disagree with the government of the day. CHAIRPERSON How did you feel about apartheid? MR OLIFANT Well very bad, even to myself as well it would affect me. MR BERGER So your actions in Botswana, in gathering intelligence and in participating in the attack, for you it was just a job? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. Initially when I began doing the gathering of the intelligence job, I was actually not aware that at the end it will be raiding Botswana. MR BERGER I'll come back to that. How did it come about that you took such a job? You said you were in Koevoet, you were transferred from Koevoet to become an agent for the police, you ultimately became a Constable in the police, why, if you were not motivated politically, why did you undertake this job? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, if I may elaborate on that point. To be a member of Intelligence, it's something very difficult, but those days it ...(indistinct) something very difficult. When I left Koevoet to Jo'burg, I never chose to say that: "No, I want to go to Jo'burg", I was actually transferred like any other member would have been transferred. CHAIRPERSON Maybe you misunderstood the question, I'll give you the benefit of that doubt. The question is directed at you. You say from a personal point of view you could not support the policy of apartheid. Do I undestand you correctly? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The Security Forces, including the South African Police, were one of the pillars in the upkeep of aparatheid, not so? Would you agree with that? MR OLIFANT Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON The question that Mr Berger's asked you then, why would you involved yourself in police then if you felt that way? MR OLIFANT Not because I involved myself, I was instructed from Namibia that: "Okay, you'll be going to Johannesburg" ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR OLIFANT Well it's - I never joined Koevoet actually, I was taken from Pretoria straight to Koevoet and from Koevoet it's where I joined the ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON When did you first become a policeman? MR OLIFANT That was in 1985. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR OLIFANT When for the first time I became a policeman? You see there is a contract ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Let's put it this way, when did you first join the Security Forces? MR OLIFANT In 1979. CHAIRPERSON Did you go straight to Koevoet? MR OLIFANT I was taken straight to Koevoet. CHAIRPERSON And that was your first connection with the Forces of apartheid? MR OLIFANT That's correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON Now why did you join Koevoet? MR OLIFANT I never joined it, I was made to join the Koevoet. CHAIRPERSON You were forced to join Koevoet? MR OLIFANT Well not forced, but the circumstances which I was into, I was actually taken to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, what led you to join Koevoet? MR OLIFANT I never joined volunatarily, I never even knew about Koevoet at all. CHAIRPERSON What made you join the South African Security Forces? MR OLIFANT Well Headquarters actually ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Look, don't come tell us about Headquarters now. Before we get to Headquarters, how did you get involved with the Security Forces of South Africa? Either on a friendly basis or a social basis or whatever. MR OLIFANT No, I was actually recruited by Intelligence. CHAIRPERSON You were recruited? MR OLIFANT That's right. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you say no? MR OLIFANT Well I never knew for a fact that a later stage I would involved in a, you know ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, you were recruited into what? MR OLIFANT Into Vlakplaas. CHAIRPERSON Into Vlakplaas? MR OLIFANT That's right, ja. CHAIRPERSON Maybe the English I'm talking is not the same English you understand. MR MALAN Mr Olifant, did you join Vlakplaas as an askari? MR OLIFANT No, at that time it was no askari, Mr Chiarperson, it was just a farm which was only based with the members of the Intelligence. MR MALAN Now who recruited you? MR OLIFANT It was, at that stage it was Brig JJ Viktor, Col Frans Beck(?) MR MALAN Now what was the circumstances, where did he find you? MR OLIFANT What happened is when they learn about our situation ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What situation? MR OLIFANT That we were refugees. CHAIRPERSON From where? MR OLIFANT From Mozambique. CHAIRPERSON Are you a refugee from Mozambique? MR OLIFANT The group which I was with. CHAIRPERSON Are you an original South African, or where do you come from? MR OLIFANT No, by birth I'm not a South African. CHAIRPERSON By birth you're not South African? MR OLIFANT No. Although my father's a South African. CHAIRPERSON So at some time they found out that you were a refugee from Mozambique? MR OLIFANT That's right, yes. CHAIRPERSON How did you get the name Olifant then? Or was it one of those people who couldn't spell Ndlovu, or something like that? MR OLIFANT Well that is - my father will answer that, not me, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay. So you were a refugee and these policemen found out that you were a refugee. MR OLIFANT That's correct, yes Sir. CHAIRPERSON Carry on, tell us more now. Tell us more now, carry on with your evidence. MR OLIFANT So when the Intelligence discovered that no, we were actually refugees, then they recruited us. They kept us at the then so-called Vlakplaas, but at that time it wasn't called Vlakplaas, it was just called a farm. They kept us there for a month and Brig JJ Viktor, in 1980 he informed us that no, we'll be going to Koevoet, we'll be going to Namibia. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you reject this idea now? They're obviously putting you under pressure saying that you are a refugee, you must help the police. Why didn't you reject it? MR OLIFANT Well I was a youngster at that stage and I did not know what was good, what was ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How old were you then? MR OLIFANT I was 18 years old. CHAIRPERSON When you were 28, why didn't you reject all this then? MR OLIFANT I had no choice because I had already merged myself into a mess. CHAIRPERSON No, you did. MR OLIFANT Honestly, I had no choice. If we can go back to my - some of the application, some of the hearings, some of our members got killed because, the ones who wanted to flee from the Force. MR MALAN Just repeat that, I didn't hear that. Some of your members ... MR OLIFANT Got killed because they left the Security Force, they left the Intelligence. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger. MR MALAN Just before you proceed, Mr Berger. Did you flee Mozambique from Frelimo? Were you working with Renamo? How did you become a refugee? MR OLIFANT What happened is this. When Frelimo took over Mozambique, alright, my father said to me: "Go back to your grannies in Natal". Now since I was not only one, I had friends whom I intended to come to South Africa with, so what happened is we all came together. Now by coming all together into South Africa, we were caught, we were caught and well they put - we were in prison about a week and from there on then they released us. Then I said to the Komatiepoort Intelligence that I am South African by naturalisation. I gave my father's name, I gave the addresses, everything, somewhere in Natal, but they never wanted actually to let me go to Natal, instead they took us from Komatiepoort straight to Vlakplaas. MR MALAN Were you assaulted by the ... MR OLIFANT No, no, we had never been assaulted. MR MALAN Never been assaulted. MR OLIFANT Never been assaulted. JUDGE MOTATA Sorry, would that include people like Adriano Mbambo? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA Amaro da Silva? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA Abilio Makwakwa? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA And George Sigauke? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA You may proceed, Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you, Judge. Mr Olifant, I've noticed that you have a difficulty in coming out with a lot of evidence that is inside of you and I knew that your story went back to when you came from Mozambique, but it was just so difficult to get it out of you. And I'm going to ask you please, when you listen to the question, just get the evidence out, try and tell the Committee as much as you know, rather than giving little titbits of information every now and then. There's an obligation on you to make full disclosure, so will you try in answering my questions, to tell as much as you know, not as little as you know? Okay. Now I want to turn to your statement at page 17 of the bundle in front of you - do you have it, paragraph 9A.4. Are you there? Now you say there that prior to the raid in Botswana, you were instructed by Lieut Willem Coetzee to enter Botswana. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Am I correct if in time I'm putting this round about February/March 1985, which is about three months before the raid? Would that be correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER "In order to verify information provided to Security Forces, concerning the whereabouts of ANC cadres and the existence or not of safehouses where they resided, I used a false passport and entered Botswana and proceeded to Gaberone" Now you said later in your evidence-in-chief this morning, you said that the final instruction was to kill everyone in certain houses. Remember that? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER And the reason that you were to kill everyone in those houses was because in those houses you were going to find MK members who were armed. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER When you were given the original instruction by Willem Coetzee to go into Botswana, were you instructed to spy on MK soldiers in particular, or on ANC members generally? MR OLIFANT MK soldiers, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Okay. Now in paragraph number 2 on that page you say "In Gaberone, I observed specific vehicles and persons and the houses at the addresses as provided to me. I stayed in Gaberone for approximately 1 week, whereafter I returned to the border with a bus." Those houses that you were observing and those persons, they were only people, MK soldiers involved in MK activities, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER How did you know that they were MK soldiers? MR OLIFANT Well we made a follow-up of information which we had received from the sources, from the informers. MR BERGER Did you have dealings with the informers? You personally. MR OLIFANT Well I could also - I was a co-handler, I ...(intervention) MR BERGER With who? MR OLIFANT With Mr Coetzee. So whenever Mr Coetzee interviewed an informer I would always be there and listened at some time. MR BERGER So Mr Coetzee's sources were your sources? MR OLIFANT Not my sources, but Mr Coetzee's sources. MR BERGER And they told you that certain people were MK soldiers? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And they then described these people for you? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And I take it they pointed out these people in the so-called terrorist album. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER There where all the photographs were? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER So you knew what these soldiers looked like. MR OLIFANT Well, a soldier ...(indistinct) MR BERGER Well Mr Olifant ...(intervention) JUDGE MOTATA Don't run away, just answer the question please. MR BERGER I'm giving you every opportunity to be open and honest and frank with this Committee, I'm not asking you difficult questions. My question is, you knew what these soldiers looked like because you had seen their photographs in the album. MR OLIFANT Well more-or-less I had an idea of the description. MR BERGER But you saw the photographs in the album. MR OLIFANT But to see a photograph and to see a person in reality, it sometimes doesn't match. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Olifant we know that one is paper and the other human flesh. The point of the question is that you were asked to observe the activities of a person whose features, whose facial features you knew, not so? It was pointed out to you, "go see Mr X, go see Abrahams, see what he's up to". His photo was in a, possibly in an album, so you knew exactly how he looked. MR OLIFANT Well, Mr Chairperson, not exactly. I would have identified the person that okay fine, you know there is an appearance from the album which had been shown by Mr Coetzee or by the informer, but I will more-or-less try to, you know, to bring the picture together. MR BERGER Did you have the pictures with you when you went up to Gaberone? MR OLIFANT No. MR BERGER You had vehicle registration numbers? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Did you have the registration numbers with you when you went up to Gaberone? MR OLIFANT I had it in my mind, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER In your head? MR OLIFANT In my mind. MR BERGER How many registration numbers did you have in your head when you went up to Gaberone? MR OLIFANT If I may recollect it, I think there were about two, two vehicles, because the houses I observed was only three houses. MR BERGER Who did you go up with? MR OLIFANT I went on my own when I went to stay for a week. MR BERGER What about Mapule Sekonyela? MR OLIFANT Well Mapule Sekonyane is one of the sources who actually showed me one of the houses, let's say one or two - one of houses, that's right, ja. I think it's only one she showed me. MR BERGER Is her name Sekonjane or Sekonyela? MR OLIFANT Sekonyane, Mapule Sekonyane. MR BERGER Sekonyane. MR OLIFANT Sekonyane, that's correct Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER In your stsatement at page 23 and 24, you talk about Mapule Sekonyela, is that a mistake? MR OLIFANT Mapule Sekonyane. MR BERGER Yes, I'm asking, is the spelling of this informer's name incorrect? If you have a look, page 23, paragraph 8. MR OLIFANT Ja, it's right, the spelling is right there. MR MALAN Is it Sekonyela? MR OLIFANT No, it's wrong, sorry, it's wrong, it's Sekonyane, it's a "g". JUDGE MOTATA But right at the end there is a "la" again, Sekonyela. MR OLIFANT No, but the way they pronounce it, it's Sekonyane. Mapule Sekonyane from Mofolo - from Molapo. Sorry, Mr Chairperson, from Molapo. JUDGE MOTATA No, I'm Sotho speaking, we can't pronounce in Sotho other than what is written. Motata, you can't pronounce it any other way and spell it Motata, for instance. MR OLIFANT But the right pronounciation is Mapule Sekonyane. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you, you may proceed. MR BERGER You say from Mofolo. MR OLIFANT Molapo. MR BERGER Did you used to go into Gaberone with her? MR OLIFANT Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER To identify these houses? MR OLIFANT I only went once with her in this occasion to go identify a house. MR BERGER Why, when I asked you who did you go with, you said you went alone? MR OLIFANT No, no, I thought the day I went for observation I went on my own. Because I heard you quoting the bus, that I came back by bus. I said yes. MR BERGER Mr Olifant, I'm thoroughly confused about the number of times you went to Gaberone before the raid. I thought, as did Mr Visser, that you went twice. CHAIRPERSON No, Mr Berger, I think to be fair to the witness, he did testify that he went there on a number of occasions, but the preparatory excursions for this incident amounted to two. MR BERGER Okay. But now the preparatory excursions for this raid, the two that the Judge has just spoken about, how long before the raid did you go on those excursions? MR MALAN No Mr Berger, we're confusing again. If I understood it correctly, he went on a number of occasions with the informer, this Mapule Sekonyane, or wahtever she was, then again at a later stage he went by himself. And he deals with that in what should be paragraph 9 on page 24. This was the only time that he went into Botswana under instructions directly of Coetzee. He didn't go twice. He went on a number of occasions in a earlier group of general intelligence gathering, then he was instructed and he went as a second time a second time, but after a number of occasions on a first time and then he went without the informer, he went alone, by himself. And the second time that he went into Botswana, that he referred to, related to the raid, or what he understood to be the raid, at least at the later stage, was when he went in with the military from Hammanskraal. MR BERGER Okay. So Mr Olifant, would it be correct to say that approximately three months before the raid - and if I've got it wrong, just tell me, you went in, in and out, in and out a number of times with Mapule. Then in May, which is now a month before the raid, or maybe less than a month, you went into Gaberone by yourself, to carry outr certain intelligence gathering. And then you went into Botswana on the third major occassion, when you went with the raid. MR OLIFANT That's right. MR MALAN Yes, that's how I have it, Mr Berger. MR BERGER Alright. Let's take the first number of visits that you went in with the informer, let's deal with that first. That was where you observed three houses. MR OLIFANT No, no, for the first time, no, she only went to show me a house. MR BERGER One house? MR OLIFANT One of the houses, that's right Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER But now this is when you're going in and out at least three or four times a week. MR OLIFANT Despite this mission here we had something else to do. MR BERGER What else were you doing? MR OLIFANT She was actually infiltrated with some other organisations except ANC. She was also involved in PAC, she was also involved in AZAPO activities. MR BERGER Alright, but ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT If you can just say, it was Botswana, Lesotho. MR BERGER Is she still alive? MR OLIFANT Not that I know of, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Now when you say - please help me, when you say at page 17, numbered paragraph 2 "In Gaberone I observed specific vehicles and persons and the houses at the addresses as provided to me." which excursion are you referring to? Are you referring to with Mapule, without Mapule, with the raiding party? MR OLIFANT Without Mapule, without the raiding party, when I went on my own. MR BERGER Okay. So paragraph 2, we're looking at May 1985? MR OLIFANT Plus-minus, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And that was when you stayed for a week? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Did you speak to anyone there? MR OLIFANT The occupants of the houses, Mr Chairperson? MR BERGER Anybody, yes. MR OLIFANT No. MR BERGER So you were just observing? MR OLIFANT I was just observing the houses, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And which people did you observe? MR OLIFANT The movement of those particular houses which I had been given the addresses. MR BERGER Yes, but who were these people? MR OLIFANT I can't recall their names. CHAIRPERSON Can you recall the addresses? MR OLIFANT It was Broadhurst and Gaberone. I think Gaberone North. MR BERGER You can't be more specific than that? MR OLIFANT No. MR BERGER Do you remember the vehicle registration numbers? MR OLIFANT I cannot recall it, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Olifant, you were able to memorise it then on such an important mission. You only had two of these registration numbers to remember, why can't you tell us that now? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, it has been a long time really, honestly I cannot remember the vehicles' registration numbers. MR BERGER Okay, well one name that you've given us today is Abrahams. You said that was a name that was given to you. MR OLIFANT Ja, I quoted one of the names actually. The name of Abrahams I do recall it you know. MR BERGER Okay. Now I'm going to ask you, in this week when you were observing these three houses, were you observing Abrahams? MR OLIFANT I think one of the houses was actually Abrahams, yes. The precise name which I remember is Tim WIlliams, that I remember very clearly. CHAIRPERSON Well was his house one of the houses you had under observation? MR OLIFANT That's right, yes, Tim Williams, I remembered very clearly. CHAIRPERSON No, he's abode, were you observing his house? Mr Williams. MR OLIFANT Abrahams? CHAIRPERSON Williams. MR OLIFANT Williams, yes. CHAIRPERSON You say you're sure of Williams. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you observing his house that week? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you say you have a stronger than just a vague recollection of the name of Abrahams. Was Abrahams one of the people that you were targeting that week? MR OLIFANT Yes, if I may remember the name, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And was his house one of the houses which you observed that week? MR OLIFANT Excuse me, are you talking about Mr Tim Williams or Mr Abrahams? CHAIRPERSON Abrahams. We're done with Williams now. MR OLIFANT Okay. CHAIRPERSON Abrahams. Did you observe his house that week? MR OLIFANT I think that was one of his houses actually. CHAIRPERSON So we've got two out of three, we'll be lucky if we get all. MR BERGER Well Mr Olifant, you said you couldn't remember the names but now you're getting there, so try a little harder. One of the houses you say was Tim Williams' house. One of the houses was Abrahams' house. Were they ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT I'm not sure about Abrahams house, but I'm saying that it could have been one of the names which I'm trying to ... MR BERGER Where was Williams' house? MR OLIFANT It was in, somewhere in Gaberone, either north or Braodhurst. MR BERGER Any other names? MR OLIFANT No, I cannot recall any other. CHAIRPERSON Whose house was in Broadhurst? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, it's so difficult for me to say that Mr Tim Williams' house was in Broadhurst or it was in Gaberone North, because it has been so long a time you know. I have been in Botswana again, so I totally forgot about ... MR BERGER Now these houses that you were observing, you say were on the outskirsts of Gaberone? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER Not in the centre of Gaberone? MR OLIFANT No, no, no, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Well Urial Abrahams lived in the centre of Gaberone, so it couldn't have been his house you were lookig at. MR OLIFANT Centre of Gaberone, there are no houses, it's only a commercial area actually. MR BERGER And you were looking at a house in Broadhurst you say. MR OLIFANT Broadhurst and Gaberone North. MR BERGER And while you were watching these houses, did you also observe Mr Williams? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER And you observed Mr Abrahams? MR OLIFANT About Mr Abrahams, I'm not quite sure. MR BERGER You're not sure what, you're not sure if you observed him, you're not sure if you saw him? MR OLIFANT I'm not sure about the name, whether it is Abrahams or not, but I'm trying to actually recall him you know, whether it was exact ... Like for instance, I'm saying about Mr Tim Williams, I am quite correct that Mr Williams, I observed his house and that is the name. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Now Mr Williams', what did you observe there? Did you see him come in and out of the house? MR OLIFANT Yes, I saw him going, yes. CHAIRPERSON Was there a motor vehicle which you could identify that visited that house? MR OLIFANT I can't recall whether it was a motor vehicle ... CHAIRPERSON What did he do that frustrated the South African Police? Why was he now a target? MR OLIFANT Excuse me, Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Why was Tim Williams a target? MR OLIFANT Well according to the information he was a member of the MK. CHAIRPERSON Ja, but you were the person that was supposed to provide the information, not so? MR OLIFANT Not really provide the ifnormation, it's actually just to verify the information which they already obtained from the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So how did you verify that Tim Williams was a member of MK? MR OLIFANT Whatever ...(indistinct), Mr Chairperson, is what I reported to Mr Coetzee, that: "Okay, I saw Mr Williams and he was there", and that was it. CHAIRPERSON No, you were supposed to verify information that Mr Tim Williams was a member of the Umkhonto weSizwe ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT Verify the houses and verify the people, whether those were their respective places or not. CHAIRPERSON So what were you watching Tim Williams for? MR OLIFANT He was a member of the MK. CHAIRPERSON How do you know? MR OLIFANT Not that I knew, but according to the information ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So how can you say so? MR OLIFANT Well that was what I was, I mean I was briefed by Mr Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON And for what reason did you have to observe him? Now you know, everybody knows he's a member of MK, why must you observe him? MR OLIFANT Well that was the instruction given by Mr Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON Now what did you have to observe about Tim Williams? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Coetzee knew better than ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What did you have to observe? MR OLIFANT To check whether he stays there or not. CHAIRPERSON So you had to verify his address? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So you were given an address and told: "Go verify that Tim Williams stays at number so and so, so and so street, whatever suburb, Gaberone"? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER How did you know that the person whom you saw walk into that house was Tim Wiliams? MR OLIFANT Well whoever I might have seen during that time of observation, I had to go and compare to what Mr Coetzee knew and what I'd seen. CHAIRPERSON No look, you were supposed to verify that Tim Williams stays at number so and so, so and so street in Gaberone. Correct? And that's why you are telling me now that was the reason for your observation there. Now you saw, at best ...(indistinct) a male person walking to that house, that address that was given to you, how were you going to go back to Coetzee and say: "Yes, it is true, Tim Williams does live in that house"? How did you identify the person, this male person that went into this house? Did you go up to him and ask him is he Tim Williams? MR OLIFANT When Mr Coetzee instructed me to go to those specific addresses ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, we know that. MR OLIFANT ... Mr Coetzee, he gave me the address and he gave me you know, a description of that particular person and the surname. I checked if this you know, matched, that means that was the person. CHAIRPERSON Oh, is that how you were going to ...(indisitnct)? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And did you verify that in that way? MR OLIFANT Well, Mr Tim Williams, yes, the description was really fitting in and another address as well, I can't remember the surname, it was as well, even the vehicle as well which he was driving. And the only thing, I don't recall the third house. CHAIRPERSON Now tell me, in an attempt to cut this long story short, afterwards, after the attack, you must have been able to assess which houses were attacked, not so? MR OLIFANT After the attack? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR OLIFANT Well after the attack there was nothing. CHAIRPERSON When you came back home, were you not able to find out or assess whether you played a part in correctly pinpointing a residence which was scheduled to be attacked in the next 48 hours? Is it not so? That is why you're making the application. You were responsible for the attack on certain houses, not so? MR OLIFANT No that's correct, I do agree with you. CHAIRPERSON But to what extent did you play a role in that way, in the attack on the various houses there in Gaberone that night? How many of those houses that you pointed out were really attacked? MR OLIFANT There were three houses. CHAIRPERSON Three houses. Can you name them, or give their addresses, or ...? MR OLIFANT The right address, really honestly, I cannot tell you, but I gave ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Can you tell us who died in a particular house? MR OLIFANT No, I'm not able to identify the people who ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON All you can say is that you pointed out three houses that day and as far as you can remember, all of those houses were attacked that night. MR OLIFANT Yes, they were attacked. CHAIRPERSON You can't today tell us which houses and which not? MR OLIFANT No. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. MR MALAN Sorry, you're response was that all three were attacked, but your earlier evidence was that one of them, the one that you had to go to, you couldn't find. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN So only two were attacked? MR OLIFANT The three houses in Gaberone were attacked, but the house in so-called ...(indistinct) area, which was the outskirts of Gaberone, that's the house which, you know during the ...(intervention) MR MALAN Then it's my mistake. CHAIRPERSON I just want to clarify something. Those three houses you referred to, are houses that you pointed out. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And they were all attacked. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You're not talking about the one that was on the outskirts of Gaberone. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Olifant, the houses that you believe were attacked, were the houses that you had kept under observation during your reconnaissance there, in about May 1985. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And those houses were either in Broadhurst, or Gaberone North. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON All three? MR OLIFANT All three houses. MR BERGER Not Gaberone East, Gaberone North, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER Now the people that you kept under observation, Tim Williams, Abrahams - there were others, am I right? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER Do you see any of those people here today? MR OLIFANT No. No. MR BERGER Well I can tell you, Mr Abrahams is here today. You saw someone coming to give me information while you were testifying? MR OLIFANT Yes, I saw someone coming to you, that's right. MR BERGER Mr Abrahams, would you stand? CHAIRPERSON Will Mr Abrahams please stand up. MR ABRAHAMS STANDS UP CHAIRPERSON I'm told that that gentleman who stood up there now is Mr Abrahams. Do you recognise him? MR OLIFANT No. CHAIRPERSON Doesn't he look near the person whom you observed? MR OLIFANT No, no. MR BERGER The house that he was living in was situated right opposite the University of Botswana, in Gaberone, not on the outskirts, in Gaberone. He moved out of that house two weeks before the attack. So could it be that when you were observing the house, it was in that two-week period, before the attack, during which Mr Abrahams had already left the house? Is that possible? MR OLIFANT Well it is possible. CHAIRPERSON Yes there's another permutation, Mr Berger, is that if we're talking of the attack being in the middle of June, I think the 14th, and he refers to this reconnaissance as in May, then we have at least a two week gap between what could possibly be his last opportunity of observation, and the actual attack. So those two weeks could have also provided an opportunity for Mr Abrahams to move residence. MR BERGER Yes, well what I'm suggesting to Mr Olifant is that, if he doesn't recognise Mr Abrahams, is it not possible then that he was observing the house after Mr Abrahams had already moved out? In other words, in that two-week period, and that's why he doesn't recognise Mr Abrahams today. CHAIRPERSON Oh, you're suggesting that his reconnaissance took place, maybe in the beginning of June? MR BERGER Maybe right at the beginning of June, yes. Is that possible? MR OLIFANT No, it was before June, far June. MR BERGER Far, far before June? MR OLIFANT That's right. CHAIRPERSON Well the 30th of May is not far before June. You say you had this observation in May, and I make this comment in your favour, that in May it could have extended to the 30th of May, or thereabouts. Are you convinced that you left Botswana from that trip, before the 1st of June? MR OLIFANT That's right. CHAIRPERSON Answer this, was one of those three houses near or in the vicinity of the university there? Do you know where that university is? MR OLIFANT Well I do have an idea. CHAIRPERSON Good. Now one of the house you had under observation, was that in the vicinity of that university that you've got an idea of? MR OLIFANT Well it's possible, but - if I may try to recollect about the house next to the university ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well I'm not even saying it's next to, I'm saying it's maybe in the vicinity. MR OLIFANT In the vicinity of the university? Well it's possible, Mr Chairperson, it's possible. It has been a long time now. CHAIRPERSON No well I'd like an answer better than just a possibility. You know more-or-less where this university is, you know more-or-less where you observed where the houses were situated which you observed. Now all I'm asking you is a simple question, was one of these houses that you observed that time, in the vicinity of that university? MR OLIFANT I can't recall it, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA When you went to Botswana, there was one main hotel there, Gaberone Sun, do you recall Gaberone Sun? MR OLIFANT That was called Gaberone Sun, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA And if you go down along the same street, going down Lubatsi Way, that's where you would meet the University of Botswana. Do you recall that? MR OLIFANT Lubatsi, that's correct Mr Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA So I'm correct when I say Gaberone Sun and the University of Botswana are along the same roads? MR OLIFANT You're partly correct, Mr Chairperson, there was a house next to Lubatsi Road. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you. MR BERGER Okay. Just before the lunch adjournment I want to establish, that house on Lubatsi Road, down the way from the Gaberone Sun, that was one of the three houses that you kept under observation. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Perhaps this would be an appropriate time to take the adjournment. CHAIRPERSON And you an idea in terms of your instructions, that someone who was a target, lived in that house? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What turned out to be, or people who turned out to be targets, but certain names were mentioned to you. Now when you observed this house near the university, were you able to confirm that this would-be target in fact stayed at that address that you were observing? Was that a positive report that you cuold give? MR OLIFANT Well like I've said, Mr Chairperson, that there was one of the houses where I did not really give an effective report about the house. I cannot recall whether I - I might have not seen the person who lives in that house, or I saw different people in that particular house. CHAIRPERSON I see. So are you telling us that you in fact gave a negative report about the house near the university? That you went back to Coetzee and said: "Look, I didn't see the person you mentioned at that house, it's possibly not the correct address."? MR OLIFANT Ja, that's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now think very carefully, is that what you told Coetzee, or not, or can't you remember, or what is the position? MR OLIFANT I do recall that one of the houses ... but not precisely which house. One of the houses I might have given to Mr Coetzee that: "Look Mr Coetzee, here I never saw anybody, or I saw different persons, or ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Now let's go back again now. The house that you now finally are able to recall, was one of the houses you observed and it was situated near the University of Botswana. Did you identify a person to associate with that address? MR OLIFANT I can't recollect, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now, this is the important question. If there was somebody that came in there that you should have associated with that address, it could only have been Abrahams, not so? MR OLIFANT Well it's possible. CHAIRPERSON By the looks of things, it could only have been Abrahams, he was one of the persons mentioned as a person who should be observed for the purposes of confirming his address. MR OLIFANT It's possible, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And today you are unable to identify that person. I know it's some 15 years on, but you say you are unable to identify Mr Abrahams today. MR OLIFANT Ja. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, we'll take the lunch adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Berger, let's get on with the tunnel, I hope there's light at the end of it. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER (cont) Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Olifant, Tim Williams lived in a house in Broadhurst. Now you say that you observed a house in Broadhurst. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Would that have been Tim Willaims' house? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Do you remember what car or vehicle you saw at that house? MR OLIFANT I cannot remember the house - I mean the car, sorry. MR BERGER What if I tell you it was a powder-blue bakkie? Does that ring any bells? MR OLIFANT No, I can't recollect it. MR BERGER Did you see Tim Williams at that house? MR OLIFANT Yes, I saw him, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER How did you know it was Tim Williams? MR OLIFANT According to the description and the photo which I'd seen in the album, and that was it. MR BERGER So you were certain that it was Tim Williams? MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON So what did you have to confirm now? Why were you sent there to do this observation, what was the actual reason? MR OLIFANT The reason to keep observation at those particular houses, it was actually you know, to confirm whether those houses were really existing or not. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Any other reason? MR OLIFANT That's all. CHAIRPERSON Well let's be fair to you, was it not also to confirm that a particular person in whom the Security Police of South Africa had an interest, was in fact a resident at that house you were observing? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Coetzee, he never actually explained to me about that matter. Maybe it could have been part of ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON Alright. So all you had to do is to go back and say: "Yes, that house exists"? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That is all? MR OLIFANT And whether I've seen a person similar to the person whom I'd been ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well that's what I'm getting at. And you say no, Mr Coetzee didn't mention it. Now come on now, tell us exactly what was your job there. 'Cause we're wasting time and we're getting more confused, and after all, it's your application, so tell us. MR OLIFANT Well it was to ...(indistinct) whether those houses were there, even the occupants of the houses, I mean the people whom he had given the description about, were really existing or not. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean by "existing"? MR OLIFANT Well were they really staying there at those particular houses. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, I just want to be absolutely fair to you, are you still comfortable with using the English language, or would you like to use a vernacular? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, I've been using the English all along. CHAIRPERSON No, I'm not concerned about how long you were speaking English, or using English. Are you quite comfortable with English, or would you prefer to go into the vernacular? MR OLIFANT I'm comfortable, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay. So you're not misunderstanding the questions or ...? MR OLIFANT No, no. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Now please tell me if I'm wrong then, because we seem to be struggling. Your job was to observe these houses and to confirm that they existed in fact, correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Secondly, you were given names to associate with that house and in some instances, as I understand you, a description of how such a person would look, and you had to confirm whether that person so described to you, was in fact likely to be the resident of that house you were observing. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Anything else? MR OLIFANT No, nothing in addition, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you ever asked to see if there's any innocent people that were also living in that house? MR OLIFANT Well not innocent, but to - if whether there was any other person in exception to the people who ... that's right, yes. CHAIRPERSON And that was your job. MR OLIFANT That's right, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you know why you had to do that? MR OLIFANT I did not know, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever find out afterwards why you had to do that? MR OLIFANT Well I only realised after the raid. CHAIRPERSON After the raid. Did you know anything before the raid, as to why you were party to these activities? MR OLIFANT No, I wasn't aware of anything. CHAIRPERSON When you pointed out the houses to the military, did you not know why you were pointing out these houses? MR OLIFANT Well there now I knew for a fact that no, it was now - we had been briefed at the camp, so I knew what would happen. CHAIRPERSON Well tell us, what did you understand? MR OLIFANT That each one of those houses which I had identified, were to be raided. CHAIRPERSON What did you understand by "raided"? MR OLIFANT Well it's to get into the house, you kill the occupants of the houses and thereafter the instruction to the military personnel was to actually place a landmine after the raid. CHAIRPERSON At each house? MR OLIFANT At each house, yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether that occurred? MR OLIFANT Some of the houses, Mr Chairperson, it did occur. CHAIRPERSON Now when you observed the house of Tim Williams, did you see whether there were people other than Tim Williams, who lived there? MR OLIFANT I can't recall, Mr Chairperson, whether I've seen an additional person. CHAIRPERSON And when you pointed out, did you point out his house on the afternoon of the day of the night that this attack took place? MR OLIFANT It was during the day, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You pointed out the residence of Tim Williams? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why did you point that house out? MR OLIFANT Well it was one of the houses which was actually selected into three houses. CHAIRPERSON By whom? MR OLIFANT By Mr Coetzee. Willem Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON So is that the reason you went to point out Tim Willaims' house, because you were told by Coetzee to point it out? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON To the military. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When did he tell you that? MR OLIFANT The day when Mr Anton Pretorius took me to Hammanskraal. CHAIRPERSON I see. Was it the same day and just before you went to Hammanskraal, for your training? MR OLIFANT Well it was during that period. I can't say whether it was previous, or it was exactly the same day. CHAIRPERSON Okay, but near enough. So when you went to Hammanskraal - let's put it this way, did you ask Mr Coetzee: "Why do I have to point out these houses"? MR OLIFANT I can't recall whether I did ask him or not, but I know for a fact that as a junior I had not say. CHAIRPERSON Now when you went to Hammanskraal, you knew you're going to Hammanskraal and you knew that at some time you're going to have to point out the houses in Gaberone, why did you think you're going to have to point out these houses, at that stage? MR OLIFANT Well when I was told that I would be going to Hammanskraal, I never knew that I will be still going into Gaberone, I thought maybe I was just going to go to Hammanskraal in order to go brief the people, as Mr Coetzee said no, I must go and brief the Military Intelligence. CHAIRPERSON No, no, we'll come to the briefing now. You just told me that some time before you were told to go to Hammanskraal, you can't remember if it's on the same day or the day before, or some time before that, you were told by Coetzee that you're going to have to go point out these houses in Gaberone. Is that not so? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So when you went to Hammanskraal, you knew you're going to have to go point out these houses, correct? MR OLIFANT Well I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now at that stage, why did you think you're going to have to point out these houses? MR OLIFANT Well I did not know exactly what will happen. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you ask: "Why do I have to go point out these houses"? MR OLIFANT As a junior, Mr Chairperson, I had no right to ask. CHAIRPERSON Well what did you think then? Did you have any suspicions? MR OLIFANT Well to be quite honest with you, Mr Chairperson, I can't recollect whether I thought of something negative, or ... CHAIRPERSON Okay. So you were told by Coetzee that you have to go point out these houses, and you didn't know why and you can't tell us whether you had suspicions or whatever. So nothing untoward crossed your mind at that stage. Then you went to Hammanskraal. MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Then you received this training. MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Now at Hammanskraal, did you find out what's going to happen when you point out those houses in Gaberone? MR OLIFANT Well immediately when I stepped into Hammanskraal and I saw plus-minus hundred-and-something military personnel, then I realised that no, something will be going wrong. CHAIRPERSON Like waht? MR OLIFANT Well you see military you always ...(indistinct) no, ...(indistinct) instruction somewhere. CHAIRPERSON Well what did you think? MR OLIFANT Well I immediately focused that no, Botswana was the main target, maybe this is now leading to Botswana. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Did you connect it to the houses that you'd observed? MR OLIFANT Excuse me, Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON When you got to Hammanskraal, you saw all this military personnel, you immediately thought well, something is going to happen. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON This idea that something is going to happen, did you connect it to the three houses, or four houses that you'd observed when you were last in Botswana? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson, since I heard Mr Coetzee saying that: "Can you still remember those houses in Botswana?" CHAIRPERSON Okay. So you had a fair idea that whatever was going to happen, was going to happen at those four houses. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now why did you - or let me put it this way. I think you testified in your evidence-in-chief that you were taught there in your training how to attack houses and the occupants and how to defend yourself, correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When you received that training, why did you think you were receiving this training? MR OLIFANT After I had realised that no, something will be happening into Botswana, then we got training. It wasn't immediately. When I to Hammanskraal, I did not receive immediately training. Thereon we had to set first for so-called assessing the targets. CHAIRPERSON We'll come back to assessing the targets, it's very interesting that you raise that. Why did you think you were being trained to attack people and their houses and how to defend yourself? You. MR OLIFANT Well, during the training I immediately thought that no, this time we're really going to the war. CHAIRPERSON You were going to be part of this attack, isn't it? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And they were teaching you how to do it. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And they were also teaching you how to defend yourself in the event of things turning sour in your attack. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now how long were you at Hammanskraal? MR OLIFANT Plus-minus five - five to six days, that was that. CHAIRPERSON And how long did this training take? MR OLIFANT Well the training used to take ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Over how many days were you trained? MR OLIFANT Let's say plus-minus three days. CHAIRPERSON Three days. Did I understand you correctly, prior to your training this assessment of the targets was in process? MR OLIFANT That's right, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now explain to us what this assessment was all about. MR OLIFANT Well first of all, I will just say on my side I was told how much I knew about the area. I then said: "Okay, I have been at this place, the place looks like this, I've seen this, I've seen that", whatever. And well, there were other targets. Altogether, if I'm not mistaken, there were plus-minus about 13 targets. CHAIRPERSON 13? MR OLIFANT 13 targets, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure about the targets, but plus-minus. CHAIRPERSON Now let's talk about the targets that you were involved in. How were those targets assessed? MR OLIFANT Well they needed to know how to get there, what is the addresses, what I've seen. Exactly the same report which I had given to Mr Willem Coetzee, it's the very same thing which I really disclosed to them that: "No, I've seen this, I've seen that." You know they were actually asking me whether I knew about people, I said: "No, I do not know about the people". Whether the people inside the houses were armed, I said: "No, I do not know about that". Well that everything ...(indistinct) to really send their own intelligence once more to go and gather the information. CHAIRPERSON Afterwards, did you assess this attack and work out who was killed and who wasn't killed, as far as your participation was concerned? MR OLIFANT After the raid, Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR OLIFANT Yes, I did ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Even a couple of days afterwards, when you were back in South Africa. MR OLIFANT Well no, while in there there was no time ... CHAIRPERSON No, no, I accept that, but afterwards when you were back in South Africa, were you able to assess and get information as to how successful this raid was? MR OLIFANT Well I did see on the newspaper, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON No, but amongst yourselves. Did you Coetzee tell you: "Well done", when he handed you this envelope, "it was a very good performance and so many people died", etcetera, etcetera? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, Mr Coetzee never actually came back to me in order to give me credit for that mission. CHAIRPERSON Oh, okay. From the newspaper reports that you read, you say, were you able to assess how successful the operation was? MR OLIFANT Mr Coetzee warned me that I'm the only one who knows about that and I don't have to really comment with the other colleagues of mine. So I couldn't really ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Are you able to say how successful the operation was? Were all the targets killed that were intended to be killed? MR OLIFANT Well some of the targets were really ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Were all the houses you pointed out attacked? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And in the papers there were allegations, at best for you, that there were certain innocent people that had died in this attack. MR OLIFANT I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Some of whom were, according to the allegations and the reports, were normal residents of the area and normal occupants of certain houses which you pointed as targets. MR OLIFANT It was indeed stated on the newspaper, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you worry about that, that there was at least in once instance, a real juvenile that was killed? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson, I was concerned. CHAIRPERSON But didn't you see children staying in such houses when you were observing these houses? MR OLIFANT No, not ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Not at all? MR OLIFANT No Mr Chairperson, really, I never saw any child. CHAIRPERSON And women? MR OLIFANT No. CHAIRPERSON You never saw any women at these houses? MR OLIFANT No, no. No. CHAIRPERSON So the houses, am I correct, that you observed during the period you did the observation, only male people entered those houses and drove those cars into the yards of those houses? Am I correct, do I understand you correctly? MR OLIFANT Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And how long did you have these houses under observation? MR OLIFANT Plus-minus five to six days, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And during that five to six days at those houses you pointed out, you never once saw a female enter or come out of that house, nor did you at any stage, see a child going in or coming out or staying in any of those houses? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, I don't remember seeing any of the, any minor age in those houses. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Olifant, you say that when Mr Coetzee told you that you were going to Hammnskraal, he never told you that you were going to be training for a mission into Botswana. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And he never told you that you were going to be involved in a mission with the South African Defence Force? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Have a look at page 18 please, of the first bundle, paragraph 5, page 18. Let me read to you what you say there "Approximately three months after I had returned from Botswana, Lieut Coetzee called me into his office and asked me if I could still remember the houses in Botswana, which I had observed. I confirmed that I could still remember the houses, as well as the addresses. And he then told me that Lieut Anton Pretorius would be taking me to a place where I would be training for a mission into Botswana, with members of the South African Defence Force. I was also informed that I would receive a full briefing on the mission into Botswana, later. I was then taken to a South African Defence Force base near Hammanskraal." Now which is the truth, Mr Olifant, what you've been telling the Committee today, or what is written here in pargraph 5 on page 18? Because they contradict one another. MR OLIFANT What I'm telling the Commission today. MR BERGER Well why then did you confirm this as being correct earlier this morning? MR OLIFANT Well it might have been a mistake. CHAIRPERSON Well what's it doing in your affidavit then, if it's wrong? Is that also another mistake? MR BERGER What part of it is a mistake, Mr Olifant? CHAIRPERSON Did he answer that last question, Mr Berger? MR BERGER I'm trying to focus him, Chairperson, he didn't. CHAIRPERSON You say your confirmation this morning of your statement, was possibly a mistake, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I'm asking you a different question, that you now say what you told this Commission is the truth and what you say in your statement is wrong, it's not the truth. Why is it in your statement, if it's wrong? MR OLIFANT Well I think during the - at the time when I was briefing my legal adivser about this matter, I might have concluded what I was ...(indistinct) to tell him. CHAIRPERSON What does that mean? MR OLIFANT No, by saying that I was told by Mr Pretorius that I will be going to train. I was told by Mr Pretorius that I would be going to Hammanskraal, Mr Anton Pretorius will be taking me to Hammanskraal. MR BERGER No, Mr Olifant, what you say in the statement is that Coetzee told you that Pretorius would be taking you to a place where you would be training for a mission into Botswana, with the South African Defence Force. You say that that never happened? He never told you that? MR OLIFANT No, no. He said to me that he will be taking me to somewhere where I will be briefing the members of the South African Defence Force, the Military Intelligence. CHAIRPERSON Is that all he told you? That is Coetzee. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON He never asked you anything else? MR OLIFANT He didn't ask me anything, he just informed me about that, that I should prepare myself and I must have the clothes for about a week because I'll be going to Hammanskraal to go meet the other members of the Military Intelligence. MR BERGER So your legal representative misunderstood you when you gave instructions? MR OLIFANT Or I might have made a mistake during the ... MR BERGER Well which one is it? MR OLIFANT I might have actually - you know, actually I anticipated whatever I wanted to, you know, disclose. MR BERGER And then when you confirmed it again this morning you made another mistake, because you read it, you confirmed it, but it's not the truth? MR OLIFANT Well it's possible. MR BERGER Let's go back to the two houses. You say Tim Williams' house, you only saw Tim Williams, you didn't see anyone else? MR OLIFANT No. MR BERGER And you were observing this house for a week? MR OLIFANT That's correct, all three houses for a week, that's correct Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER So you would observe Tim Williams, go away, come back and so on? MR OLIFANT That's correct yes, I was a pedestrian, not mobile. MR BERGER And then as far as Abrahams' house, the one down the road, Lubatsi, opposite the university - in fact, the house itself was situated in Pudulogo Crescent. Do you remember the name of that street? MR OLIFANT No, I can't recall it anymore, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER You say you never saw Abrahams there at that house. MR MALAN Mr Berger, just for my understanding, initially y ou put it to you him that the house was directly opposite the university, is this Puldulogo Crescent, is that off or is it still directly opposite? Because as I understood my colleague, Judge Motata, the university was on Lubatsi Road. MR BERGER Mr Malan, it's in Pudulogo Crescent, opposite the university, right opposite the University of Botswana. MR MALAN Right opposite, in terms of the immediate first house, or opposite, a few houses away from the university? MR BERGER I can't be more specific than that. MR MALAN But let us then not assume that it's specific in terms of directly opposite the university, as the first house on the other side of the street. It apppears not, it appears it's off Lubatsi Road and the university is not on Pudulogo Crescent. Or is the university also on Pudulogo Crescent? MR BERGER Mr Malan, I don't know. MR MALAN Okay, thank you. MR BERGER I'll take instructions on that, perhaps we can take it further. MR MALAN No, I just don't want us to make findings on the basis of responses to the question of being directly opposite and maybe it's a few houses off. MR BERGER Do you remember observing a house where Mr Abrahams was supposed to have been living? Was it one of the three houses that you observed? MR OLIFANT Well if you actually remind me about a house not far from Lubatsi Road, yes, I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Alright. And do you recall that you had instructions from Coetzee to determine whether Abrahams was living at that house? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. If I'm not mistaken about the surname, but I know it could have been Abrahams. MR BERGER Yes well you're the person who volunteered the name Abrahams this morning. MR OLIFANT That's right yes, I do remember saying so. MR BERGER And the Abrahams we're talking about is Mr Urial Abrahams. Now I want to ask you whether you had instructions and you've said yes, if that is the person Abrahams, you had instructions from Coetzee to check and see, is that man living at that house just off Lubatsi. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you remember that now? MR OLIFANT Yes, I do remember saying so. CHAIRPERSON No, do you remember that those were your instructions? MR OLIFANT Yes, I do remember, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And in all the time that you observed that house, you never saw Abrahams, is that correct? MR OLIFANT Well like I've said earlier on Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall whether I have seen a person in that house or not, because there was a house where I had a problem of seeing the occupant of that particular house. MR BERGER Well who did you see at the third house? MR OLIFANT At the third house, I think that was Broadhurst if I'm not mistaken, I can't recall properly who was at the third house. MR BERGER Why is it that you can only remember seeing Tim Williams, why does that stick out in your memory? MR OLIFANT The thing is this, Mr Tim Williams was the most wanted person and every individual ...(indistinct) at the training was insisting: "Do you know Tim Williams, do you know Tim Williams, have you ever seen Tim Williams", I say: "Well, not because I know him clearly, but I once saw him, not literally but, you know ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why was he such a star? MR OLIFANT I believe he and the other member called Kido, they were the machineries. CHAIRPERSON Were the? MR OLIFANT The machineries. If I may recall, it was Tim Williams and Kido. It's Kido Adams. CHAIRPERSON They were the? Just spell that word. MR OLIFANT Machineries, you know, the machineries from Botswana, the people who supplied weapons to the cadres. CHAIRPERSON Oh, the machinery. Okay. They were part of this whole MK cog. MR OLIFANT That's correct, yes. Moreover, Mr Tim Williams was involved in intelligence. MR BERGER I can help you, perhaps, a bit further now. Opposite the university of Botswana, well there's a street along which the university ran and over the road from that street - from the university, there was Pudulogo Crescent. If you can see the picture I'm trying to draw for you. If the street is running here, the university is up here, on the other side there's Pudulogo Crescent. MR OLIFANT Well I understand, Mr Chairperson, the way you actually trying to bring in the picture of the place, but I never stayed in Botswana, I just went for that specific reason and from there on I never really wanted to memorise about the place. MR BERGER And the house that we're talking about was the third house in Pudulogo Crescent, from the corner of that main road along which the university was situated. So from the corner you counted three houses, the third house down is the house of Mr Abrahams. Do you remember that now? MR OLIFANT If you may help me, was there any old motorbike in the yard? AUDIENCE COMMENT ON QUESTION MR OLIFANT Thank you, that's the house. MR BERGER Okay, now I can tell you about the vehicles at that house. There was a yellow VW Beetle. MR OLIFANT That's right. MR BERGER A white Toyota Minibus. Do you remember that one? MR OLIFANT ...(indistinct) MR BERGER No, if you're not certain, I don't want you just to agree with me. MR OLIFANT Really, I'm not certain about all this, but you talk about the motorbike, I remember it was a broken motorbike, you know, standing in the yard. So I think that's enough for ... MR BERGER The yellow VW Beetle, you remember? MR OLIFANT I can't recall about that. MR BERGER And the white Toyota minibus you can't recall either? MR OLIFANT No. MR BERGER Now, who did you observe at that house? Did you observe anyone? MR OLIFANT I'm trying to remember who did I see in that house, but I can't really, you know, so quickly recall about. MR BERGER Did you see young children who used to come to that house in the afternoon? MR OLIFANT No, no. MR BERGER If you had seen young children, you would have reported that back to Coetzee? MR OLIFANT Yes, yes, that was my job actually, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And then that house would have been excluded as a target for the attack? MR OLIFANT Well that was remaining entirely to Mr Coetzee to decide whether he was going to attack the house or not. MR BERGER But it was a significant fact that you had to report back. If you saw children, you had to report it? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER So you can't remember if you saw anyone at all at that house? MR OLIFANT I can't recall, really. MR BERGER You see, because that was the house where Mr Michael Hamlyn lived. Now you remember when Mr Visser questioned you this morning you said the name Michael Hamlyn rang a bell? MR OLIFANT Yes, I said something of that kind, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER But you don't remember ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It wasn't tolling, it was tingling. MR BERGER But you don't remember observing Mr Mike Hamlyn at that house, do you? MR OLIFANT Like I've said to you, before you could even mention the name of Abrahams, I said the name of Abrahams pictured, you know it comes in my memory. MR BERGER Indeed you did, yes. But you can't remember seeing Abrahams at the house either. I'm now asking you about Hamlyn. MR OLIFANT Well physically it's something different today. MR BERGER No, no, no. Mr Olifant, I'm not asking you now whether you recognise Mr Abrahams today, you've already told the Committee that you remember very clearly observing Mr Williams. MR OLIFANT That's right. MR BERGER And you haven't seen Mr Williams today, have you? MR OLIFANT Well no ... only in 1993, we had inside the country - I saw him in 1993, when I went to his home in Jababu(?) and do the searching. That's right yes, that's where I met him. MR BERGER Mr Williams? MR OLIFANT That's right. MR BERGER But you can remember observing Mr Williams in 1985. You have no recollection of observing Mr Abrahams in 1985, is that right? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, I said if I may recollect properly, I think I have been at Mr Abrahams' house, or if it's really Abrahams, I wasn't sure. I didn't want to really make it to be sure that it was Mr Abrahams' house, but you know, during cross-examination you actually insisted that it was Mr Abrahams. MR BERGER Well I'm talking about the house where you say you saw the broken motorbike, the house close to Lubatsi, the house close to the university. MR OLIFANT Ja, but that was not Mr Williams' house, the one next to ...(intervention) MR BERGER I know that. MR OLIFANT That's right, yes. JUDGE MOTATA If I may interpose, Mr Berger. Lubatsi is about 60 kilometres from there, it's just a road leading, one of the roads leading to Lubatsi, in Gaberone. Lubatsi is about 60 kilometres from there. MR BERGER I thought the road was called Lubatsi. JUDGE MOTATA No, no, the road is leading to Lubatsi. It's got it's name, I don't know. MR OLIFANT Yes, it's normally called Lubatsi Road. MR BERGER Thank you, Judge Motata. We're talking about the house which is in a Crescent, just off the road that leads to Lubatsi. The house near the university. MR MALAN What is the question, Mr Berger? MR BERGER The question, Mr Malan, is in connection with that house, I know it's not the same house as Mr Williams' house, in connection with that house, your evidence is that you have no recollection of observing Mr Abrahams at that house. Is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, I cannot recall it. MR BERGER In fact, you can't recall having seen anybody, man, woman or child, at that house? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER So why does the name Mike Hamlyn ring a bell, however faintly, why does it ring a bell? MR OLIFANT Well, ...(intervention) MR MALAN Mr Berger, I don't want to interrupt you, but really, is that a fair question? If one has only a faint recollection of maybe having heard a name, would one expect someone to know the reason why one has that faint recollection of maybe having heard a name? MR BERGER Well the context might be able to assist. One would recall yes, I have a faint recollection in a particular context. Or do you have absolutely no idea in what context the name Mike Hamlyn came up? MR OLIFANT Well I might have seen it on the newspaper, or after the raid or something like that and you know ... MR BERGER Okay. So you have no idea whether that name came up before or after the attack? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, of all these people and houses that you were supposed to observe, were there any white-skinned people? MR OLIFANT No, no, there were only - if I'm not mistaken, Mr Chairperson, Tim Williams is a Coloured and if I'm not mistaken, Abrahams was also Coloured, and it was a black person. I can't remember the name. AUDIENCE COMMENTING LOUDLY JUDGE MOTATA I think the Chairman made it quite clear that this is a serious hearing, that we appreciate your presence here, but we don't appreciate, we must say, your interference when the witness gives answers to questions put to him and we would earnestly now say, not go into contempt of these hearings, refrain. If you have anything, please put it to your counsel, let your counsel ask it. MR BERGER What about the other name you mentioned, Joseph Malaza? Is that also so vague that you can't recall if that name came up before or after the attack? Would that be fair? MR OLIFANT Well, the name of Malaza, it really becomes a bit familiar, but I don't want to say that yes, he's the one, in the meantime he's not one, because it has been a long time. MR BERGER Well you see, the reason I ask - sorry, there's a banging sound coming from somewhere. Joseph Malaza lived in South Africa, and the only reason that he was in Gaberone on the day of the attack, was because he ran a small car-hire company and he hired a vehicle to some people who were driving to Gaberone, Botswana. And on the 12th of June he received a telephone call from these people to say that the vehicle had broken down in Gaberone and it was being kept at a compound in Gaberone, and he then went up to Gaberone to try and retrieve this vehicle and he arranged to spend the night with his cousin who was Lindi Pahle, and that's why he was in the house the night of the attack. I'm putting that to you for your comment. So the name Joseph Malaza, is it a name that could possibly have come up in reports after the attack, and that's why it rings this feint bell in your head? MR OLIFANT Well it's possible, I do agree with you Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER If I refer you back to page 18 of the bundle, paragraph 3 - this is now your report-back after you'd been to Gaberone, this is now in May 1985, according to you. You say "I reported to Lieut Coetzee and informed him that the houses were used by ANC cadres and that I had identified the ANC cadres from the intelligence briefing that I had received prior to entering Botswana." Now other than Tim Williams, you are not able to say which ANC cadres you identified as living at these houses, whom you identified back to Coetzee? MR OLIFANT Well like I've said to you, Mr Chairperson, I cannot really remember whether in the report I gave to Mr Coetzee, whether I mentioned about seeing people in those other two houses or not. MR BERGER Well then why did you say that here in your amnesty application? Why did you say when you submitted your amnesty application, that you remembered briefing Coetzee, that the houses were used by ANC cadres and that you had identified the ANC cadres, from the briefing that you had previously got? MR OLIFANT Well one of the cadres was actually Tim Williams. MR BERGER Yes, you remember that today? MR OLIFANT That's right, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER But today you don't remember telling Coetzee about any other cadres, even if you don't remember their names, you don't remember even telling Coetzee that there were other cadres that you had identified? CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, where are you referring to? MR BERGER Page 18, Chairperson, paragraph 3. Because the intelligence briefing that you had got prior to entering Botswana, am I correct, that was an intelligence briefing from Coetzee? MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR BERGER Yes, that was before the middle visit, if I can call it that, the visit at the end of May, or in May. CHAIRPERSON No, the point I want to understand is that his information that he transferred or transmitted to Coetzee, was really the grounding to confirm the proposed attack, as a proper attack where people have been properly identified and so forth. MR BERGER Yes. Is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER I don't want to be unfair to you, but are you not saying in paragraph 3 that you told Coetzee that you had identified the ANC cadres who he had briefed you about? MR OLIFANT Yes, that's one of - like I've said, Tim Williams is one of them. MR BERGER And do you remember telling him about other people? MR OLIFANT I cannot recall on that. MR BERGER So you might only have told Coetzee about one person, which is Tim Williams? MR OLIFANT Well I have said something else about the other two houses. CHAIRPERSON Well look, Mr Olifant, on the 11th of December 1997, you remember who you told him about. MR OLIFANT Yes, I do remember who I ... CHAIRPERSON That it's just three years ago almost, not so? MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON It was quite a number of years after the event that you were able to write in an application that on your return from Botswana you were able to confirm that yes, these houses that I had observed, according to your instructions, does in fact fall within the category as houses being used by ANC cadres and that you had identified these ANC cadres from the intelligence briefing that you had received prior to entering Botswana. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But today you say you cannot recall whether you told him about other people, you're likely to have told him about Williams only. MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, if you may look at my application, there are actually two bundles here, you can see that I was actually trying to recall what happened. They are not precisely the same. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I appreciate that, it's just that in paragraph 3 on page 18 of your application, it certaily, the import of that paragraph is that you went into Botswana to observe certain houses and people, for the purposes of confirming that those people really stayed in those houses. MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON And when you returned to South Africa, you went to Coetzee and you were able to confirm to him: "Yes, those houses you asked me to observe are the houses where these people you asked me to look out for, stay". Is that correct? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, you're right when you say so, but I can't say yes, that's the thing which I've told him, because some of the things I cannot recall. MR BERGER Mr Olifant, is it not that you don't want now to identify the names of people that you passed on to Coetzee? Because the names that you passed on to Coetzee, were people who were not killed in the raid. MR OLIFANT Well not because I don't want to disclose that I saw them, or I did not see them, or I gave Mr Coetzee false information. MR BERGER No, I'm not suggesting that you gave Coetzee false information, no, I'm not suggesting that at all. Do you know that no-one was killed at Tim Williams' house? MR OLIFANT I do agree with you, yes, because it was a mistake from the Security Force. CHAIRPERSON What mistake? MR BERGER What was that mistake? MR OLIFANT The mistake - not all members who went there were members of Intelligence, some of the members were, some of the people were actually normal soldiers who understood nothing about intelligence. Now since they knew for a fact that they had been, you know, given the target, they went next door to ask whether Mr Tim Williams was still living there or not. Now Mr Tim Williams since was a member of Intelligence, he immediately realised that, but who are those people looking for me, I have my codename from my comrades. And that partiuclar night he never slept. MR BERGER And so no-one was killed in that house? MR OLIFANT No-one was killed. CHAIRPERSON But why wasn't the house then attacked? You confirmed that that is the house, you pointed out the house of Tim Williams, why was it - was it attacked? MR OLIFANT Yes, Mr Chairperson, it was attacked. CHAIRPERSON And nobody was in the house? MR OLIFANT Nobody, I believe, that was in the house. MR BERGER So on your evidence, you don't know if anyone was killed as a result of information that you passed on to Coetzee? MR OLIFANT Well, if I may recollect, Mr Coetzee once commented that it was a mistake from the Security Force. MR BERGER What sort of a mistake? MR MALAN Sorry, Mr Berger. Will you not just answer the question. The question was whether to your knowledge, as a result of information passed on to Coetzee by yourself, was any person killed that you know of? MR OLIFANT No. MR MALAN Not that you know of? MR OLIFANT No. MR MALAN Thank you, Mr Berger, you may proceed. MR BERGER Thank you, Mr Malan. Now what about the mistake that Coetzee spoke about? Did he elaborate? MR OLIFANT Yes, he said that some of the houses, the people who had been on the target list, they are no longer living there. CHAIRPERSON Now Mr Olifant, you say you don't know if anybody died as a result of the information you passed on to Coetzee. Do you know if anybody died as a result of the information you passed on to the military people? MR OLIFANT Actually, Mr Chairperson, are you talking about the three houses which I ... CHAIRPERSON No, look, you were asked now, do you know if anybody died as a result of your activities, including passing on information about people and houses to Coetzee, and you say you're not in a position to say whether anybody died as a result thereof. I want to round it off because that was in respect of Coetzee, are you in a position to tell us whether anybody died as a result of any information you passed on to Military Intelligence, or to the SADF? Are you able to say? MR OLIFANT Well wrong people, yes, who died. CHAIRPERSON Wrong people? MR OLIFANT Wrong people died, yes. CHAIRPERSON Well we'll come to the wrong people now, I just want to know whether any people died as a result of the information you passed on to the military people. MR OLIFANT I'm not quite sure, Mr Chairperson, if I may try to remember whether the right people whom we were looking for, died or not. CHAIRPERSON No, we'll come to whether the identity of the deceased or injured people were correct. Earlier you agreed to a proposition by Mr Berger, taht of the houses you pointed out to the military, nobody died. Do you still go by that answer? MR OLIFANT Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I just want to extend on that. Are you able to tell us whether anybody died, rightly or wrongly, at this stage, as a result of information that you passed on to the military people? MR OLIFANT Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR OLIFANT Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell us whom? MR OLIFANT I don't know their names, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were they any people that you were supposed to observe? MR OLIFANT No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So what information would you have passed on, if you did not have any information about those people? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, I never passed wrong information to the Military Intelligence, but I think it might have went wrong you know, during the interim when I went there and when I took the intelligence ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON No, but you pointed out certain houses to the military people that day, isn't it? MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Nobody died as a result thereof? MR OLIFANT Well the people whom we were looking for, according to Mr Coetzee, he said no-one died. CHAIRPERSON Did any people die within those houses, any of those houses? MR OLIFANT Well yes. CHAIRPERSON Who? MR OLIFANT I'm not sure about their names, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Wrong people? MR OLIFANT As claimed by Mr Coetzee that they were the wrong people. CHAIRPERSON And they are people of whom you knew nothing? Correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Well just before we leave it there, Chairman with your permission, the third house that you observed, you can't remember which house it was, you simply remember it was in Broadhurst. How do you know someone wasn't killed there, if you can't even remember the house? Is it not possible that someone was killed there? I think Mr Berger referred to the house of Hamlyn and he referred to the house of Tim Williams, he did not say that at the third house nobody was killed. He said: "The information you're giving us relates, at this stage", and I took it as the two houses, Mr Berger, where nobody was killed. Do you know whether at this third house, people were killed? MR OLIFANT No, I'm not aware of it, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN But you don't know which house it was in any event. MR OLIFANT I can't recall it you know, where was the third house situated, but I know it was somewhere in Broadhurst. MR MALAN And then just to satisfy my need for information on this, I assume you didn't only pass on to Coetzee information on these specific addresses but you passed onto him other information too that you acquired on other addresses, with earlier visits with the informer. Or did you only provide information on the four targets? MR OLIFANT Well with the informer there were actually various houses ...(intervention) MR MALAN Yes, which did not relate to these four? MR OLIFANT Correct, I ...(intervention) MR MALAN That's all I want to know, whether was general other information. I don't want the detail at this stage, and I hope Mr Berger doesn't want it either. MR BERGER No but Mr Malan, with respect, I think there might be confusion now. Because, Mr Olifant, I understood that the information that you passed on to Coetzee, was limited to the information concerning those three houses. Now are you saying that on ealier visits to Botswana, you passed on information to Mr Coetzee about other houses, other than those three? MR OLIFANT Ja, but not related to this matter here. MR BERGER Not related to this attack? MR OLIFANT That's correct, yes. MR BERGER Okay. CHAIRPERSON Before anybody gets further confused, your answer to Mr Berger on that question, was related to this attack, to this incident in Botswana. MR OLIFANT That's correct, yes it was. CHAIRPERSON So that nobody can be confused about that. MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Your other information may relate to other attacks, or whatever, but this particular attack on the 14th of June, you are saying, as I understand it, that you are unaware of any deaths that occurred as a result of information that you passed on in relation to this attack? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER But I think you qualified that, Mr Olifant, you said none of the people who were being targeted, in relation to the information that you passed on, were killed during this attack. That's what you said. Am I right? MR OLIFANT Yes, I said that. CHAIRPERSON That's an additional fact. MR BERGER Yes. But then you said that Mr Coetzee said to you that in certain of the houses where you were observing, the wrong people had been killed. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER And now the wrong people - because we only know, we don't know which house you're talking about in Broadhurst and neither do you, but of the other two houses, Tim Williams' house, no-one was killed. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER And Urial Abrahams' house, three people were killed. Three people who were the wrong people - I beg your pardon, not three people, two people, Mike Hamlyn and Ahmed Geer and his wife, Mrs Geer, who was pregnant at the time, she was shot. Now those would be the wrong people, according to your evidence now, am I correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, you say after this incident you weren't party to a gathering or any discussion in regard to what happened in that raid, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Not even with members of the SADF? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, after the raid we all assembled at Zeerust base, not really base, but - I can't recall well, it was at night, whether it was a base or it was a camping site or something like that. All members of Military Intelligence, I'm talking about Generals, were there and senior members of SAP were there, because after a certain General thanked all the personnel, the military personnel, about the - well I would call it success of the work, Mr Coetzee and if I'm not mistaken, Mr Pretorius, all flew to Pretoria. Well I went to - from there on me and Mr Johan, we came back to Johannesburg. CHAIRPERSON How did you feel about what happened in Botswana, afterwards? MR OLIFANT Well it was terrible. CHAIRPERSON Did you feel bad? MR OLIFANT Very bad, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why MR OLIFANT Why, because at the place where we had convened, that was this between Klokweng and Gaberone, there were vehicles which actually were shot at deliberately, just because the roadblock which we had manned, it was unofficial actually to the Botswana Government and we had to, people had to stop, the ...(indistinct) they don't want to have to stop and some of the people ignored us, so we shot them. CHAIRPERSON Okay, that's one reason why you should feel bad, but I'm talking about the killing and the attacks that occurred in Botswana, how did you feel about those, after the event? MR OLIFANT Well, human lives were taken away, Mr Chairperson. Although you can be how much soldier and ...(indistinct), but at the end of the day you do consider the human life is not an easy thing to ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Especially if it was in the interest of apartheid. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Then how is it hat you attended this gathering to celebrate what occurred? MR COETSER Mr Chairperson with respect, I don't think the witness testified about attending any gathering to celebrate this particular raid. CHAIRPERSON If you look at page 19, paragraph 11, right at the foot of the page. MR COETSER Yes, that is true, that was the assembly ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. So can we get answer to it then? MR COETSER But he hasn't said that he took part in these celebrations, it seems to have been the military celebrations. CHAIRPERSON "After the mission we retreated back to South Africa, where everybody assembled at the Zeerust to celebrate" what else could it mean, Mr Coetser? MR BERGER Perhaps, Mr Chiarperson, one could ask the witness whether he celebrated and in what way. I don't know. He indicates ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well I asked him a question and if he didn't celebrate he can say so. But that's the import of his application. MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, after the briefing at the assembly, let's say in Zeerust, I was instructed by Mr Coetzee that I should get into the car and go straight to Johannesburg, I'm not going to Hammanskraal. CHAIRPERSON Is that your answer to my question? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't feel too bad about what happened, is it not so, you had time to celebrate the successes of this mission? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, I was not celebrating. Yes, they ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why is it in your application? MR OLIFANT ... the members of, how can I say, the senior officers ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON They celebrated? MR OLIFANT ... they were celebrating. CHAIRPERSON Then just look at your application, you say "After the mission we retreated back to South Africa, where everybody assembled at Zeerust to celebrate" Unless my English has further deteriorated, that can only mean one thing. I'm giving you an opportunity to explain it. MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, honestly, after I was exhausted, I was hungry, there was food, there was liquor. I remember ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You were thirsty also. MR OLIFANT We ate and I should think that me and Col de Jager, we had some few tots of whisky. CHAIRPERSON And you were into the "geselligheid", is it so? MR OLIFANT Well not because I was happy, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well why were you in the "geselligheid" then, if you weren't happy? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, I had no option, I had to be with the people who ... CHAIRPERSON So you had no option but to be happy about the situation? MR OLIFANT It was no way, Mr Chairperson, where I had to really celebrate about this situation, because first of all, I knew for a fact that I wouldn't be given credit for that matter. CHAIRPERSON And if you had to be given credit for it, will you be happy about it? MR OLIFANT I knew for a fact that they wouldn't, at no stage, give me a credit for that matter. You know, I began working with Mr Coetzee when he was a Warrant Officer ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON A what? MR OLIFANT A Warrant Officer. And at that stage, after all this work has been done, he was the only person who was being promoted. MR MALAN May I just ask you, are you saying that when you returned to that camp base after the raid, you were simply, you felt terrible because of having to shoot at people on the way back, at the roadblock, it didn't particularly worry you that people were killed as an objective of the raid, as the purpose of the raid? MR OLIFANT Well ... MR MALAN It's a simply question. MR OLIFANT I understand, Mr Malan, but ... you always regret after you have done something. You may do things volunatarily, but afterwards you regret, that hey you know - anyway, I have ... MR MALAN My question relates to specifically to your state of mind that night after the raid, you weren't agonising about the raid itself. I think that's what you said to us, that's what I heard, but you were worried about people that you shot at when you were stopped at the roadblock. Did I hear you correctly? You said that was terrible, you felt bad. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN About having to shoot at people at the roadblock? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Not about the raid in itself? MR OLIFANT As well as the raid, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Thank you, Mr Malan. But it didn't stop you - let me ask you this, when Coetzee said to you that the wrong people had been killed ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON When did he say so? Let's find out when ...(indistinct) MR BERGER Well when did Coetzee say to you that the wrong people had been killed? MR OLIFANT That was after, I think after a month or two months. MR BERGER Did you feel bad then? MR OLIFANT Well, yes I did feel bad, of course. MR BERGER But that didn't stop you from going on other operations after that? MR OLIFANT That's correct, I carried on with my work. CHAIRPERSON Now tell me, before that, before you were told that the wrong people were killed, you were under the impression that the operation was successful, correct? MR OLIFANT No, Mr Chairperson, I had ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Did you know before you were told, that the wrong people were killed? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson, through newspaper which I had been reading. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't need Coetzee to confirm that wrong people were killed? MR OLIFANT Well I was just reading it for myself, Mr Chairperson, and when Mr Coetzee really confirmed about the incident, then I realised that no, something might have gone wrong. CHAIRPERSON And before you read it in the newspapers you thought that the operation was successful? MR OLIFANT Well the newspaper was also stating that there were wrong people killed. CHAIRPERSON Before you read the newspapers, did you think ...(intervention) JUDGE MOTATA Let's say when you retreated to Zeerust, after the raid. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You were under the impression that the operation was fully successful? MR OLIFANT Not that I was happy because people were killed ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm not talking about the happiness, were you satisfied that the operation was successful? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you were satisfied that what you had set out to do or what was set out to be done, was successful? Not so? To kill MK cadres and all who lived in their houses. Correct? MR OLIFANT I wasn't satisfied of killing human beings, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But the operation, you were satisified that it was successful. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you knew when you went there that that was a distinct possibility? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson, I knew for a fact that people will get killed. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you feel bad before you went, that this is what was going to happen? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, I had no option, I had to really go because I had already been selected. CHAIRPERSON Did you want to get out of this whole business? Did you find it repugnant to be party to this apartheid regime, killing people? MR OLIFANT Well ...(indistinct) I never really said that ...(indistinct) the other senior officers what we're doing, discussing about this and whatever, others were even you know, recalling the passage of what had happened when they were busy breaking into the doors and how people were crying and all those things. CHAIRPERSON Were you trying to get out of your predicament? MR OLIFANT As soon as possible. CHAIRPERSON Now when you were there in Gaberone watching these ANC cadres, why didn't you go to them and say: "Look here, this is my position, help me out here, I'm supposed to disclose information about you, I'm unhappy about that"? Why didn't you do that? MR OLIFANT Oh Mr Chairperson, we didn't have time to even go and look at the house ... CHAIRPERSON Come on Mr Olifant, you were there at least a week. MR OLIFANT Oh Mr Chairperson, when I went there for a week, I did not know that something similar to this will happen. CHAIRPERSON No, you wanted to get out of this predicament, you were unhappy supporting the apartheid regime and having to go give information, gather information and do transmit to the apartheid regime. You wanted to get out of this quagmire that you say you were in, why didn't you then cross the floor and go to the, or to the PAC or to the ANC or whoever you mentioned there, that this other lady had infiltrated, why didn't you go look for help there? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, I had no option, because should I have gone to the ANC, the ANC would have slaughtered me. CHAIRPERSON Is that so? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And if you left the apartheid regime, what would have happened? MR OLIFANT They would have followed me and killed me as well. CHAIRPERSON I see. MR OLIFANT Like it happened to my friends. I'm the only left today. CHAIRPERSON So you were between the devil and the deep blue sea? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Thank you. Mr Olifant, I want to go now to the time when the attack is about to start. You said there that you were waiting for a certain General to arrive and you said that when this General came, he told you that the operation had been authorised by Cabinet. MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, there is a mistake, not told me, told us actually. MR BERGER Yes, no, no. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER I'm not suggesting that you had a one on one with him. Is that you say you can't remember the General's name, or you were never told the General's name? MR OLIFANT I was never been told about his name, completely, I never knew his name. MR BERGER So all Commandant Naude said was: "We're waiting for the General to arrive"? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Then the General arrives by helicopter and he says to all of you: "Cabinet has approved this attack"? Is that what he says? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER He uses the word "Cabinet"? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER You know that Minister Pik Botha says he knew nothing about this raid in advance, he never approved it? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, we know for a fact that they, nobody of them is prepared to come and testify here today. In order to avoid the Commission, they will always say so. MR BERGER Now I want you to be very specific on this because it's important. When the final briefing came for the attack, this is now, you're at Hammanskraal, you've been on your training, you're ready to go, the iformation that you've been given in that training period up and until the time that the attack is about to take place, am I correct that the targets, you were told, the targets had been selected on the basis that in these targets are armed MK soldiers, who are to be killed? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER So your targets were twofold, your targets were the buildings or the houses and the armed MK soldiers who were living inside? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER You were not after any other ANC members, only armed MK soldiers? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What about their families, like wives, children? Or husbands, for that matter. MR OLIFANT Well the briefing we got, the houses were being used as - what's the right name, as, you know, to keep arms and to keep cadres in order, whenever they wanted to cross the border into South Africa. CHAIRPERSON Oh, they were also ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT There were no families living into those ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON They were also safehouses? MR OLIFANT That's correct, that's correct, Mr Chairperson, they were regarded as the safehouse. CHAIRPERSON Was that another reason for your observation, to check if they were safehouses? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you have to go back to Coetzee to confirm whether they were safehouses or not? MR OLIFANT Well not to confirm it but to say that no, this address, it does exist, I have seen one person or two persons or three persons, or a vehicle in the yard. Whatever I might have seen, I had to disclose it to Mr Coetzee, and that was it. CHAIRPERSON So whether it was safehouses or not, wasn't relevant at the time? MR OLIFANT Well it was said by Mr Coetzee that those were safehouses, but I cannot confirm whether those were safehouses or not. MR BERGER Mr Olifant, did I hear you correctly when you said "There were no families living in the target houses"? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER That was according to the information that you had from your observations and the information that you were given in your various briefings, both by Coetzee and by the military? MR OLIFANT Well if I may recollect properly, I never - I don't know whether Mr Coetzee told me that there were families living in those houses, or during my observation time, whether I saw kids in the yard, or ladies or whatever. MR BERGER Well then why did you say there were no families living in the target houses, where did you get that information from? MR OLIFANT Well because I didn't see during my time when I was keeping observation at those particular houses. MR BERGER Yes, but when you were about to take part in the attack, were you told there are no families living in the target houses? Or was that just something that you had from your own observation? MR OLIFANT When we were just about to do the attack, I said so. MR BERGER No, I'm asking you, when you were just about to go on the attack, in your head it was 'we are going to attack houses where we should expect to find armed MK soliders'? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER The reason for that being in your head is because that's what you were told in your training leading up to the attack, is that correct? MR OLIFANT What I was told by Mr Coetzee. MR BERGER That's what you were told by Coetzee? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And was that reinforced during your training by Military Intelligence? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. In addition to that, why we had so much military personnel, it was to actually, should anything have went wrong with Botswana Forces, will ...(indistinct) be able to, you know, to stand the fight ...(intervention) MR BERGER And start a war. MR OLIFANT ... for the meantime - well, just to try to prevent, in order to you know, try to pull out from the country and thereon, well we knew for a fact that in Zeerust we had plus-minus 50 to 60 tanks, we had armed vehicles, we had, there were I don't know how many helicopters, of which some of the helicopters, you know, they helped us during the, after the raid when we were actually looking for the right way how to cut to the border and come out, and we had jet fighters ...(indistinct). Well, we knew for a fact that if anything should have gone wrong at that moment, people ...(indistinct) of course, it was war, but we knew for a fact that Botswana would have, Gaberone in particular would have gone into flames. MR BERGER Yes, you - all of this preparation was in case the Botswana Defence Force decided to attack you. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER As well as the armed MK soldiers who you expected to find in the target houses? MR OLIFANT Well the number of MK inside the houses, we knew that we would have outnumbered them. MR BERGER We were told in the last hearing when you were not here, that if the intelligence showed that there was an MK soldier living with his wife or with her husband, then that house would be removed from the target list, it wouldn't be a target house anymore. Is that also - and of course, the husband or wife was not an MK soldier. Was that they way you understood it? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER If there were children, the house was scrapped from the being a target house. MR OLIFANT Well I think so, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON In fact, if there was anyone else living in that house, who was not involved in military operations against South Africa, that house was removed as a possible target of the attack. Is that correct? MR OLIFANT I cannot recollect whether ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, was that evidence in this matter, or another application? MR BERGER No, in this matter. JUDGE MOTATA Actually I must say in fairness to the witness, we should make him aware that during the gathering of information about the members of MK in Botswana, separate meetings were held, high officials(sic) were held in Pretoria, where the decisions were made, but I don't think this would relate to this witness, definitely not. MR BERGER No. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you. I just wanted that understanding to the witness. MR BERGER No, Judge, it's not that I'm suggesting this witness was involved in that process, I'm just trying to establish that his understanding of who was a target of the attack is the same as the other witnesses who've come to testify, that it was people involved in military operations against South Africa. Not political involvement against South Africa, only military involvement. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you, I just wanted the witness to be on the same level as us. MR MALAN I think you can take that as established. MR BERGER Now, you said that you were requested to assist other groups, now we're talking about SADF soldiers are now in Botswana, this is before the raid and you're going to identify other houses. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER How many groups were there? MR OLIFANT Well like I've said, plus-minus we had - if I'm not mistaken, ...(indistinct) there were about 13, plu-minus 13 targets, so each group was consisted by four, five people, four five six people, four, five, depending. MR BERGER 13 groups? MR OLIFANT That's correct, because we had plus-minus, despite the truck which was ferrying the military personnel which went to Botswana, we had over 10 vehicles which went to Botswana from different borders. MR BERGER At different times? MR OLIFANT At different times. MR BERGER And the truck you're talking about was the last vehicle to come through with the military hardware? MR OLIFANT Well, I suppose it was the last vehicle which went into Botswana, because I wasn't into that ...(intervention) MR BERGER Yes, you were already in Botswana. MR OLIFANT I was already in Botswana. MR BERGER Can you give us the names of the people, the other people who were in Botswana with you, whether they were in your group or in other groups? MR OLIFANT Well I have been meeting some other members prior to this incident, that I knew, two British guys, Mike and Peter. MR BERGER Mark who? MR OLIFANT Mike and Peter. MR BERGER Mike who? MR OLIFANT Well the surname I don't know. Well Commandant Naude was actually leading us in Hammanskraal, but he never went in, but Mike and Peter, those were former Rhodesian, what you call ... MR BERGER Selous scouts. MR OLIFANT Selous scouts, ja. They were in Botswana with us. CHAIRPERSON It may not perhaps be Hoare(?), Mike Hoare? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, those were the only people I knew at the base when we were there, those were the only people, plus one - no, no, there were four. I knew Commandant Naude, I knew Warrant Officer, I forget his name, plus these two gentlemen. That was it. MR BERGER Those were the only people whom you knew? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER If you'll just bear with me for a moment. Do you know a person by the name of David Loam? L-o-a-n, David. MR OLIFANT No, I can't recall. MR BERGER He worked with a Peter and they were both ex-Rhodesian members of the Police Anti-Terrorism Unit. Could that be the Peter that you're referring to? MR OLIFANT Well - no, I don't know about, I can't recall about David Loam. MR BERGER Do you know where Mike - Mike and Peter, you say you've met recently? MR OLIFANT No. MR BERGER Oh, I don't know why I had it in my head that you'd spoken to them recently. MR OLIFANT Those were the people whom I knew in Hammanskraal base. MR BERGER Have you seen them since the attack? MR OLIFANT I've even heard about their names. You know, it has been plus-minus 15 to 16 years I'd never seen them. MR BERGER Alright. Now you're in Botswana and you're going to one of the houses that you've identified, is that correct? The one that's now on the outskirts. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER The house that you were looking for, was this one of the three houses that you had passed information on, or was it another house? MR OLIFANT No, that was the fourth house. MR BERGER The fourth house. Do you know who was supposed to be staying at that house, the fourth house? MR OLIFANT I can't recall, I cannot recall. And how did the house come into the whole picture, I cannot recall. MR BERGER Would you turn to page 19 please, of bundle 1, page 19, paragraph 8. I'll read it to you, don't worry. You see in paragraph 7, the last sentence you say "I travelled in a van with a Sergeant from the Reconnaissance Unit at Phalaborwa, into Botswana. The Sergeant and I stayed at the President Hotel and we identified our target during the day." MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER Who was the Sergeant? MR OLIFANT I did not know his name. MR BERGER Now in your evidence this morning you said "I did not go out during the night" did I misunderstand you when you said that? MR OLIFANT Which night? MR BERGER The night of the raid. You said "I did not go out during the night" is my note incorrect? MR OLIFANT No, you are wrong there. MR BERGER Okay. Then my note goes on to say "We did not want to go to any other target. We preferred to leave it alone" this is the target that you were looking for. "We asked the General for permission. He said okay." It's an abbreviated note, so tell me if I've got it wrong. When you went out looking for your target, you say you never found your target. MR OLIFANT Okay fine, exactly 12 o'clock the instruction was as follows: "You go between, on the road to Lubatsi, you'll get a truck, you take whatever belongs to you (that is the military equipment) and you get into the vehicle, you go straight to your target". But what happened is this, afeter we had collected our weapons, on our way to the target, since it was dark, we could identify the target, so through the radio we told the Commandant in the area that we are unable to identify the target, what should we do. The Commandant in charge said: "Immediately convene into Oasis Motel and Gaberone and Klokweng", where we were supposed to have met. Then we immediately went there. So we helped the people who were supposed to have manned the roadblock. MR BERGER Wasn't it your instruction beforehand, that is something went wrong, you were to immediately return to the point where you had assembled before, immediately prior to the raid? MR OLIFANT No, there's no place where we assembled before the raid. The only place which we said that we shall all convene is the, it's between Klokweng border and Gaberone. MR BERGER Well let me read to you paragraph 10 on page 19. You say "Our instructions were to immediately return to a point where all the miltary personnel convened prior to the operation, in case something went wrong." MR OLIFANT Well it's a mistake here. It is a mistake, there's no place where we convened before the ...(indistinct). The instruction was as follows, before we could even leave Pretoria, that the place where we're supposed to meet after the raid, or anything should go wrong, it's immediately, you should immediately go to - well you ...(indistinct) it was Oasis meeting point ...(indistinct) MR BERGER Oasis? MR OLIFANT Ja, Oasis ...(indistinct), ja. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you say it in your statement? MR OLIFANT Excuse me, Mr Chairperson, I didn't hear you. CHAIRPERSON Why was it not said in your statement? MR OLIFANT Well it was a mistake which I never really realised, Mr Cahirperson. CHAIRPERSON One doesn't make mistakes like this, it's not a spelling error or a misunderstanding, this is a fact, but yet it crept into your statement. Can you explain that? I may point out to you that these mistakes in your statement are increasing. MR OLIFANT Well I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Mr Olifant, about the R1 500 that you were paid, you mentioned that you were paid a monthly salary of R600, is that right? MR OLIFANT Well plus-minus, somewhere there. MR BERGER Oh, R650? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER So this R1 500, did it include the R650? In other words, was it ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. Yes. MR BERGER So there was an R850 bonus? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And is it correct that the informer, Mapule Sekonyele, she was also paid? MR OLIFANT Well, I wouldn't like to elaborate on that point, Mr Chairperson, because she was paid I was not there. MR BERGER Okay. Have a look at page 21, paragraph 13 "We carried out our mission successful and at the end of the mission at least 14 people were killed." CHAIRPERSON Page 21? MR BERGER Page 24, I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON Which paragraph? MR BERGER 13. "After the mission we retreated back to South Africa, where we all assembled at Zeerust to celebrate. During our celebration we met some Army Generals. Mapule Sekonyele was paid for her part played during this mission and she then left the ANC and joined the PAC." MR OLIFANT Well she was being paid on a monthly basis. MR BERGER No, no, no, no, you say she was paid for her part played during this mission. MR OLIFANT Maybe, I can't recall it. MR BERGER She was paid like you were paid. MR OLIFANT Well I was paid - on my side I was paid, as you said it was an extra - I said it was an extra R850 as a bonus, so it was actually part of my ...(indistinct) MR BERGER Part of your? MR OLIFANT Success. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) Part of your success? MR OLIFANT Success. MR BERGER You mean to say it was just good luck for you to get the extra money? MR OLIFANT Well I thanked him for giving me extra money actually. MR BERGER You thanked him? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) didn't you ask him: "Why, what did I get this money for"? MR OLIFANT No, Mr Chairperson, I never asked him that. CHAIRPERSON But you went to thank him. MR OLIFANT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Or is it that you knew why you're getting this money? MR OLIFANT Well I didn't want to ask him anything, Mr Chairperson, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR OLIFANT Well, I didn't have - I never thought of asking him. CHAIRPERSON Mr Olifant, I understand the only place where you get money and you don't why is the casino machines. There you know also. But where you get manna from heaven or from the South African Police, surely you want to know why? Not so? MR OLIFANT I think Mr Chairperson once heard, if I'm not mistaken that there was a certain word where a junior wouldn't ask a senior ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON What? MR OLIFANT ... because he will say that: "Jy moenie ...(onduidelik) vra nie", ...(indistinct) nie vrae vra nie". JUDGE MOTATA Wouldn't that be in terms of instructions given, or when you are supposed to do something, you are supposed to do that and not ask reasons why you've got to do that? The need-to-know basis? MR OLIFANT Well it will always depend where do ...(indistinct) ask him things. JUDGE MOTATA So with the money you took it the same way? MR OLIFANT Well I thanked him and I took the money, that was it. I don't deny the fact that I took the money. CHAIRPERSON No, that's of no interest to me. When you received the money from him, you didn't know what's in that envelope. That was your evidence. You discovered that you've got an extra bit of money when you were away from him. Now I want to know why you didn't go, or the next time you met him, why you didn't ask him: "What's that extra bonus for, what's that all about?" MR OLIFANT Well I didn't ask ask him, Mr Chairperson, to be honest with you. I never asked him. CHAIRPERSON No, I accept that, that you didn't ask him, I want to know why you didn't ask him. Or is it you knew why you got that extra bonus? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, maybe I knew. CHAIRPERSON Don't tell me maybe, did you or did you not? MR OLIFANT Well I didn't ask him, that's the only thing that I can say to you, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Mr Olifant, also to be fair to you, your evidence is also that Coetzee sent you on this mission, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER And at the time he sent you on this mission there was no talk about money, is that correct? MR OLIFANT No, he never spoke about money. MR BERGER Alright. But this bonus of R850, was this the first time that you'd received such a bonus, or did you regularly get bonuses every time you went on a mission? MR OLIFANT Excuse me ... JUDGE MOTATA Put the mike off please. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetser, I'd like to remind you to instruct him that he's under cross-examination. I don't know what he's discussing with you. MR COETSER Well if Mr Berger doesn't mind, perhaps it will be of assistance to him ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I do. MR BERGER No, I do, I'm just amazed. MR COETSER If the Commission doesnt mind, he wants to ask me something. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible - no microphone) What do you want to ask your counsel? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, something came into my memory. When I went for a week into Botswana, Mr Coetzee gave me only R100 to survive for a week. He said to me: "No hotel, no enough food, you just have to survive. The R100 which I'm giving to you, it's only for transport." Now I do recollect properly that no, why he had given me an extra bonus, it was because when I went to Botswana, he never gave me enough money. CHAIRPERSON Did you submit an account to him? MR OLIFANT Excuse me, Sir? CHAIRPERSON Did you submit an account to him? MR OLIFANT I had no - I didn't submit anything, I just told him that: "Mr Coetzee, as you have said that I should not sleep in a hotel, I must just sleep wherever I will be able to sleep", and that was it. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger. MR MALAN May I just follow on something. You were asked whether this was the first time that you received a bonus, did you ever receive bonuses at Koevoet? MR OLIFANT Well, I would receive any extra money, but not that much which will pass about R500. Not as a bonus, but you know maybe ...(indistinct) this is for telephone, this is for that, this is for expenses, taxis inside the country, or something like that. MR MALAN You were regularly paid when you were with Koevoet. MR OLIFANT That's right. MR MALAN You received a monthly remuneration. MR OLIFANT Salary, that's correct. MR MALAN The question is, did you from time to time receive money other than your monthly remuneration? MR OLIFANT Excuse me, Sir, are you talking about Koevoet or? MR MALAN I'm talking about Koevoet. MR OLIFANT Yes, there was a bonus, almost on a ...(intervention) MR MALAN Yes. So this wasn't the first bonus? MR OLIFANT No, no, it wasn't. MR MALAN And at Koevoet, the bonuses came after work well done, or whatever? MR OLIFANT Every three months there ...(intervention) MR MALAN Now the question here is one, and it seems not to be put to you directly, the question is, did you have any contract agreement against a specific payment for participating in this raid? Were you to be paid a specific sum of money for going into Botswana? MR OLIFANT No, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN And that's definitely not? MR OLIFANT Not, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN At no stage? MR OLIFANT At no stage, Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Thank you. Can we leave it there, please Mr Berger. MR BERGER Ja, we can leave it. I want to refer you back to page 24, paragraph 13 ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, are you comfortable leaving it there? MR BERGER Well I've been asked to leave it there. CHAIRPERSON No well, I'm asking you. I don't want to be faced with any ...(intervention) MR BERGER No, it won't be a ground. Mr Olifant, paragraph 13 page 24, you say: "During our celebration we met some Army Generals" Now a little while ago you said that during this celebration, when you had a couple of tots and some food, the other men who had participated in the mission were telling stories about what had happened during the attack. Do you remember that? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Telling stories of how people had cried and people had screemed and people were being shot. Reemmber that? MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR BERGER Did anyone recount specifics of what had happned in any of those houses? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, we never really had a literal talking of extactly what happened, a person will just comment a bit of what had happened. MR BERGER Okay. Did anybody give any report-back of people in the various houses fighting back as they were being attacked? Shooting back. MR OLIFANT No, I cannot remember whether there was any skirmish between the MK and the Military Intelligence. MR BERGER To put it bluntly, was there any report from anyone of any armed resistance in any of the attacks? MR OLIFANT No. MR BERGER Thank you, Mr Olifant, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetser, have you got any re-examination? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COETSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Olifant, as I understand your evidence, that the attack of this evening, through all its plans, were directed at members of MK who presented a direct threat to South Africa. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And the killing of a small boy would not fall in that category, would you agree? MR OLIFANT I do agree with you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now I just need to get this clarified, that those people who were considered a direct threat at South Africa, were MK members who were regarded armed. MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Would that include a person who taxis members of the ANC to the airport and collects them at the airport to take them home? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, a member of MK will do anything, he will ...(indistinct), he will do anything during his spare time, so I won't really know wehther the person who will be going to the airport ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes fine, I'm just talking to clarify this. If this person was an oldish man whose only job was to drive and in this case, at worse for him, he would transport ordinary ANC members to and from the airport in Botswana, would he be regarded as a direct threat to South Africa? MR OLIFANT No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So he woulnd't fall in the category of the targets that day? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now have you joined the Police Force now? MR OLIFANT Well that's correct, Mr Chairperson, I've got the rank of an Inspector and I'm still attached to the Police Force. CHAIRPERSON Excuse me? MR OLIFANT I'm still a policeman, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Which division? MR OLIFANT Organised Crime, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The house in Broadhurst, was that the one of Tim Williams, or did I misunderstand you? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, I can't really say. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR OLIFANT I cannot recall you know, whether Mr Tim Williams was in Broadhurst or he was in Gaberone North or East. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you're excused. MR OLIFANT Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetser, have you got any other witnesses? MR COETSER No, I don't Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is that the end of his application? Are we at the end of the applicants? Mr Berger, are you ready to start? MR BERGER Chairperson, I am ready to start, but could I ask that we start first thing tomorrow morning and if you need me I can explain why. The reason is that you'll see from the bundle of statements that we've handed in, one of the witnesses is the Deputy-Speaker of Parliament and she's flying up to be here tomorrow morning and I was hoping that I could finish her evidence as soon as possible, because there's urgent business in parliament that she has to attend to. It's the very last statement. MR MALAN Is she to be your first witness? MR BERGER She would then be my first witness, yes. MR MALAN Can you give us an indication as to how you see the time being utilised, how long will you take with your witnesses? MR BERGER I'm going to be very short with my witnesses, because I can tell my learned friends that I'm going to lead them on one or two peripheral things, nothing material, they're going to then confirm their statements as being true and correct and then then they're going to be made available for cross-examination. So it really depends on my learned friends, not on me. MR MALAN Thank you. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn till 9a.m. tomorrow morning. MR VISSER Chairperson, yes it's a bit ...(indistinct), we leave early but sometimes all sorts of things happen on the freeway, if we're not here then it won't be our faults. CHAIRPERSON So be it. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS