amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-11-22 JISS CENTRE, MAYFAIR, JOHANNESBURG - (NEW 1 WILLEM HELM COETZEE AM4122/96 ) https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53994&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/2001122jb.htm CHAIRPERSON This is the application involving applicant, Mr Coetzee. For the purposes of the record, I am Judge Pillay, I'm going to ask my colleagues on the Panel to identify themselves for the purpose of the record and so too, the various representatives. JUDGE MOTATA I am Judge Motata. MR MALAN My name is Wynand Malan. MR VISSER Chairperson, may it please you and the Honourable Members of the Committee, I am Louis Visser from the Pretoria Bar, instructed by Wagener Muller. I appear on behalf of Mr Coetzee in this application. MR MOTLOUNG Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Ike Motloung, an attorney from Germiston. ...(indistinct) and Associates is the firm. I'm acting on behalf of Mr Modise Pitse, that I'm told is the father of the late Mr Pitse in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Why would Mr Pitse senior be an interested party in this matter? MR MOTLOUNG Judge, my understanding is that he's merely coming in as the next-of-kin of the deceased. The deceased is no-more there. This is the next-of-kin that is available to attend the matter and they have an interest in the matter. That's my understanding. CHAIRPERSON What interest do they have? MR MOTLOUNG As the next-of-kin, Judge. I don't think I can take it any further. I would imagine that if they are indeed the next-of-kin, it will go without reasoning that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You see, the problem I have is that the victim in this application may very well not have opposed the matter. I don't know if it's for anybody else to make that decision. If, however, the victim had been killed and been a deceased relative to this application, the next-of-kin may very well have an important interest in the matter, and that is my difficulty. But I don't want to waste time, I just draw my concerns to your attention, so that we don't waste time during the course of this application. This application, I understand, relates to an abduction and an act of sabotage, not the death of the victim. MR MOTLOUNG Yes, that's how I understand it, Judge. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser. MR VISSER Mr Steenkamp, I think must just place himself on record as well. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I'm sorry. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you, Mr Chairman. Andre Steenkamp, I'll be the Evidence Leader. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Chairperson, this is the application of Mr Coetzee, Willem Helm Coetzee, application number 4122/96, in regards to the abduction of Mr Pitse - I'm told it is spelt: P-i-t-s-e, and a further act which involves sabotage in the Northern Transvaal. Chairperson, I beg leave to call Mr Coetzee to give evidence. He is available and he has no objection to taking the oath. He wishes to address you in Afrikaans. WILLEM HELM COETZEE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, I would appreciate it if you would lead your client please. MR VISSER I will do so, Chairperson. Chairperson, perhaps just before I commence, may I just give a little bit more clarity on what the amnesty application that is applied for is about. Chairperson, you will hear evidence of an arrest of Mr Pitse, which we will submit on the facts, was an unlawful arrest and the detention that followed was similarly unlawful. It is arguable, Chairperson, that that could amount to abduction or man-stealing, and therefore we would ask for the crimes of abduction, man-stealing, in that regard. At the same time during the abduction, Chairperson, there was also an assault, which you will evidence about by the applicant on Mr Pitse. And the second phase of the events led to an act, actually two acts of sabotage in which explosive devices were placed at the University of ...(indistinct) in the Northern Transvaal, near Pietersburg, and where damage was caused to property. And in the process use was made of an explosive device or explosives which were in the unlawful possession of the applicant. And that is the scope of the application. CHAIRPERSON According to the documents, one of the acts of sabotage was where an explosive device was placed near a wall, when it exploded it resulted in the damage to the wall, flower bed or something and a gate. That was one. Is that one or two? MR VISSER I thought that was two, Chairperson, perhaps we could get clarity on that. I thought the gate was the second one, but I stand to be corrected. CHAIRPERSON Well let's find out then. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, the application that you handed in, you have that before you, do you confirm the truth and correctness thereof, as far as your knowledge goes of that document? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have also been requested to supply further particulars to the TRC, and you have done so by means of your attorney. Do you also confirm that that information, to the best of your knowledge, is true and correct? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have also seen the document that has served before the Committee for the past year, called the General Background to Amnesty Applications. You have studied it? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you from your own knowledge and experience of the struggle of the past, confirm the information in that document? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you request that this be incorporated into your evidence? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, your application has already been confirmed by you. You have given a comprehensive set-out of the events with regard to the incident for which you apply. I would like to ask you to tell the Committee in your own words, what had exactly happened with regard to Mr Pitse. MR COETZEE Chairperson, during the years 1988, by means of one of my agents, R114, I received information regarding the presence of Mr Pitse in South Africa. Mr Pitse was well-known to R114 ...(intervention) MR VISSER May I just interrupt you? Please explain to the Committee what does R and the number mean? MS COETZEE It was a contracted member of the Force at that stage, Chairperson. MR VISSER And they had numbers that were registered at Head Office. MS COETZEE That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And this informer or agent was known as R114? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER What did he tell you? MR COETZEE He briefly confirmed that an externally trained person had infiltrated the RSA and that the person was to be found in the Soweto vicinity and he had, amongst others, received instructions from Lusaka and Botswana to later establish himself in the Pietersburg area, from where MK underground cell structures had to be established, and this included the recruitment of members for MK ...(intervention) MR VISSER Will you please go somewhat slower. MR COETZEE The recruitment of members internally for MK and the external and internal training of these persons, the establishment of DLBs ...(intervention) MR VISSER And a DLB means? MR COETZEE A dead letter box where they would store arms later, for use in the RSA against targets that were identified by handlers outside the country to establish courier networks for purposes of communication and their command elements in Zambia and Botswana, and then the mobilisation of the masses. MR VISSER On page 5 of the bundle you say that these events and the information that you received was approximately during June to September of 1988. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you recall during that time period what the situation was at the University of Turfloop in the Northern Transvaal? MR COETZEE At that stage the Army had been permanently placed on a campus terrain. There was a multitude of problems on the campus that was singular to the university. MR VISSER Were there unrests? MR COETZEE Yes, and there were continual class boycotts as well, Chairperson. MR VISSER During that time in 1988, where were you stationed then? MR COETZEE At Security Head Office. MR VISSER Unit D? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Or is it Section D? MR COETZEE Unit D, Chairperson. MR VISSER And who was your immediate Commander there? MR COETZEE It was Brig Oosthuizen. MR VISSER Was this Brig Alfred Oosthuizen? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER By the way, Mr Oosthuizen is aware of the fact that you applied for amnesty, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And he had decided that he would not apply for amnesty for this incident. MR COETZEE That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was his rank then? MR COETZEE Colonel, Chairperson. MR VISSER Very well. Please continue. MR COETZEE On the basis of the information supplied by R114 and under my instruction, his movements were continually monitored and this led later to information that I received from R114, this was more-or-less August of 1988, where he received instructions from Mr Pitse to meet with his Commanders from Botswana. And at that stage it was already known to us that his visits across the border had a dual purpose, one, to introduce R114 to his handlers as one of his newly recruited members, as one of his cell members, and secondly, to receive in arms ...(intervention) MR VISSER In Botswana? MR COETZEE In Botswana. There was a second message given by Mr Pitse, which was sent to his handlers to some post office box, sent in Gaberone, and the visit took place. We authorised R114 to move across the border with the vehicle. At the end of the day upon his arrival in Botswana, upon instruction of Mr Pitse, went to the Oasis Motel ...(intervention) MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, I think you might be going too fast, I see there's pandemonium with the Interpreters. Can you accept that your Afrikaans is being translated to English and from English it is being translated to other languages? So basically there are two translations that have to take place. Please keep that in mind while you give your evidence and go somewhat slower. MR COETZEE I beg your pardon, Chairperson. I shall repeat. R114 was authorised and upon instruction from Mr Pitse he went outside the country. MR VISSER Did Mr Pitse accompany him, or did R114 go by himself? MR COETZEE He went by himself Chairperson. MR VISSER Was there a meeting in Botswana? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, at the Oasis Motel. And this ...(intervention) MR VISSER Forget about that. Did R114 report to you whom he had met there? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER What did he say? MR COETZEE One of the persons he identified was Comrade A, Lambert Maloi. MR VISSER How was he identified? MR COETZEE By means of a photo album. MR VISSER Was this after R114 returned? MR COETZEE Yes, upon his return. MR VISSER He was in Botswana, he met these people, and what happened then? MR COETZEE His vehicle was taken away from him and at a later stage his vehicle was given back to him. He was allowed to return to the RSA. We had already undertaken static observation at the border post as we had agreed beforehand, in order to control and to accompany R114, the source. MR VISSER Did you meet him when he came through the border post? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Where did you go then? MR COETZEE We accompanied him as far as Rustenburg, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you search the vehicle? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER What did you find? MR COETZEE We found two AK47 rifles sealed in plastic bags, six magazines, a multitude of mini-limpet mines, detonators, handgrenades, RDG5 and F1, which were hidden in the vehicle. MR VISSER On page 7 you also refer to a Makarov pistol, was that also found there? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you do anything with regard to the arms that were in the vehicle where you were in Rustenburg? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, at that stage we took photos of where the arms were hidden in the vehicle and upon his debriefing he informed us, Chairperson, that upon his arrival in Soweto he had to give the arms to Mr Pitse. MR VISSER Did you confiscate the arms, or what was the position? MR COETZEE At that stage we could not confiscate the arms, Chairperson. MR VISSER Very well. So that would have jeopardised the credibility of R114? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER So you allowed him to drive to Soweto with the arms in his vehicle, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER What happened then? MR COETZEE The arms on occasion upon his arrival in Soweto, was handed over to Mr Pitse and we then succeeded, by means of R114, to withdraw some of the arms. MR VISSER Yes, you are now telling the story in telegraph style and the Committee might not understand what you are saying. Were the arms shown to Mr Pitse by R114, according to what was reported to you? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did he remove any of the arms or take some of the arms for himself? MR COETZEE Yes, initially the arms were removed from the vehicle, later it was placed in the care of R144, with the exception of the Makarov pistol. MR VISSER What happened to that? MR COETZEE He armed himself at that stage. MR VISSER Who was this? MR COETZEE Mr Pitse, Chairperson. MR VISSER What had to happen then with the arms that were still in the possession of R114? MR COETZEE It was left in his possession temporarily, Chairperson. It had eventually to be placed in a DLB in the far North Transvaal. MR VISSER Please continue. MR COETZEE At that stage there was already a safe cache point established by Mr Pitse in the far North Transvaal. MR VISSER Who would take the arms there? MR COETZEE He himself would do so with the assistance of R114. It was his instruction, Chairperson, to also establish a weapons cache point in Pietersburg/Turfloop vicinity where they would later use the arms for operations there. MR VISSER What happened to the arms then Mr Coetzee? MR COETZEE We succeeded Chairperson, to withdraw these arms and these arms were in my possession temporarily, I had control of the arms without the knowledge of Mr Pitse, that the arms had already been in my possession. MR SIBANYONI What followed on these events? MR COETZEE We, on a continual basis, monitored his movements. We withdrew much information with regard to the persons whom he had contact with in the far Northern Transvaal and against the background that he wanted to move the arms at a later opportunity and according to his instructions, to place it in a DLB. MR VISSER And you have already said this was in order to attack targets. Did you receive any information as to what the targets were that were identified? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, it was the South African Defence Force members. At that stage the Defence Force were physically present there at the campus. The campus was under the control of the SADF, because of the problems that had manifested at the campus. MR MALAN I wonder, Mr Visser, the information is rather comprehensive in the documents, is it necessary for him to go through everything after he had confirmed it? Can he not briefly just tell us about the nature of the assault? MR VISSER I beg your pardon, Chairperson, if we have taken too long to get there, it is difficult to determine from here what the Committee is most interested in, but I hear what Mr Malan says. There were also targets of the SAP that were identified and from all these circumstances, did you then hold conversations with the then Col Alfred Oosthuizen, your Commander? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you then consider certain options as to what to do? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER One was court directed action against Mr Pitse. MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER What was the problem with that? MR MALAN Mr Visser, now you are taking him verbatim through his statement. It's all there. I think what is not clear here is what are the circumstances exactly with regard the arrest and the assault. MR VISSER We will get to that momentarily. May I just, to carry on through with this, your Commander decided against prosecution and with Oosthuizen's knowledge and approval, you decided to try to turn his heard, so called turning his head. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER And that would mean that you would grab him and try to convince him to become an agent or an informer of the police. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER How did you then go about executing this? MR COETZEE At that stage, I would just like to add, Chairperson, I was on the point of - he was on the point of moving the arms to the north, the arms would have left our control at a stage. I instructed R114 to take the person to a rendezvous point with Sgt Mkonza, as a new recruit. MR VISSER So Sgt Mkonza would be a new recruit? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And this took place in some ally in Braamfontein? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, under my instruction. MR VISSER What happened there? Was it during the day or was it in the evening? MR COETZEE It was during the day, more-or-less 2p.m., Chairperson. And upon the arrival of R114, he, upon my instruction, moved into the ally, we had already been positioned in the ally. MR VISSER And was Pitse with him in the vehicle? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, as the passenger. We immediately grabbed Pitse ...(intervention) MR VISSER Who was this? MR COETZEE It was myself, Sgt Moshaliba and Sgt Mkonza. MR VISSER Did Mkonza and Moshaliba know about the planning of the turning, or what was their knowledge? MR COETZEE Their knowledge at that stage was only that I would grab the person, that I would arrest him. MR VISSER Very well. What happened then? MR COETZEE Thereafter he was loaded into a minibus, R114 was allowed to move away and it was during this occasion that with my open hand I struck Mr Pitse on his chest. MR VISSER Why did you do this? MR COETZEE At that stage I instructed him to speak the truth, I also confronted him with everything that I had available to me. MR VISSER There in the minibus? MR COETZEE Yes. Upon which he immediately, the information which I had already had, he confirmed this information and I confronted him at that stage with all the arms that I had already had in my possession. And I think it was quite clear to him, Chairperson, that I had monitored all his movements and that he was caught in a police intelligence network. I placed handcuffs and leg-irons on him ...(intervention) MR VISSER Where did you take him then? Can you recall? MR COETZEE My first stop was at our safehouse in the Midrand, Chairperson. At that stage I already knew the following people, with regard to Mr Pitse's arrest, it's Gen F Coetzee from Soweto. They had previously been informed about the movements of such a person in Soweto. Secondly, Division Western Transvaal, Brig Loots who was informed in terms of the infiltration ...(intervention) MR MALAN You have already told us. It is indeed the place where I interrupted you previously. MR VISSER Yes, but the only point is that Gen Coetzee or Brig Loots, did they know of any illegality with regard to Pitse at that stage? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did they accept that it was an activist that you had arrested? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was the person then taken to Nietverdiend? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And over a period of 48 hours, in your statement you say that that he was questioned. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did Gen Coetzee participate ...(intervention) MR MALAN I beg your pardon for interrupting you, Mr Visser. I do not understand if you lead the applicant and he says that Loots and Coetzee did not know of any unlawful activities, because at the bottom of page 9 he said specifically that this was discussed by him with Coetzee and Loots "The arrest and developments afterwards, with reference the recruitment of Pitse was immediately discussed, amongst others, with Oosthuizen, Coetzee and Loots." MR VISSER That's correct, but he did not discuss anything unlawful with them. MR MALAN Thank you. MR VISSER Very well. Was he then questioned as you said on page 10? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did he supply any new information that you can mention to the Committee? MR COETZEE Yes, there was a multitude of information, Chairperson. MR MALAN Is there anything else than what you have already said in the documents? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER It is on page 10 that you refer to that information. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER After this interrogation at Nietverdiend, was he taken elsewhere? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, after 48 hours we returned to the safehouse in Midrand, on the grounds of the fact that he had already, from the start he was prepared to cooperate with us. MR VISSER How long did you hold him there? MR COETZEE We were there more-or-less between seven and fourteen days. MR VISSER And during that time, were you satisfied that he was recruited as an agent? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And after his recruitment, did you register him as a registered contract worker? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what happened later with Mr Pitse? MR COETZEE He was employed as a full member of the service. MR VISSER And you say in your statement this was approximately six months after this abduction and recruitment of his? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was there any further operation with regard to Mr Pitse, regarding his credibility? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER On the bottom of page 11 you refer to that. Did you discuss this with Brig Oosthuizen? MR COETZEE Yes, upon my return and after we completed the operation. MR VISSER What was the purpose of the operation? MR COETZEE It was in order to establish his credibility. MR VISSER What would you do? MR COETZEE There were two mini-limpet mines that had been dropped off, that had been placed at two points at the University of the North ...(intervention) MR VISSER Before you get there, where did these two mines come from? MR COETZEE It was part of his consignment of arms to the RSA. MR VISSER Which you had confiscated, that come from Botswana? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you just explain at how many points limpet mines were placed and where this was. MR COETZEE Chairperson yes, there were two points. The reason - I would just like to point out here, the South African Defence Force was primarily one of the targets because of the continual problem between the students and the Defence Force, and the Defence Force at that stage, physically occupied the campus and it was one of its primary targets ...(intervention) MR VISSER Army members? MR COETZEE Yes, Defence Force members. These members ...(intervention) MR MALAN Mr Coetzee please, Mr Visser asked you to tell us where the points were. You've already told us this. MR COETZEE I beg your pardon, Chairperson. MR MALAN I don't know whether you cannot recall that you told us already what the targets are. You've already told us. Mr Visser only asked you to tell us where the two points are. MR COETZEE The two points were the main entrance and a side entrance. MR VISSER And at the main entrance, will you please tell the Committee where exactly you placed the explosive device. MR COETZEE Mr Pitse was allowed to place it in a flower bed. MR VISSER Were there Defence Force members who were on guard there? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you make any arrangements that they should not be killed and/or injured? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, they were on the other side of the gate. MR VISSER What was in-between them and the explosion? MR COETZEE The wall, the gate's infrastructure. MR VISSER And where was the other point? MR COETZEE The other point was at the side entrance. MR VISSER Can you describe that? Was this built with brick? MR COETZEE Yes, it was brick and metal gates and this was on the northern side of the campus, Chairperson. MR VISSER How far approximately from the other explosion? MR COETZEE More-or-less a kilometre or two, Chairperson. MR VISSER That far? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And were the explosives detonated? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was there damage because of the explosions? MR COETZEE Yes minor damage, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you report to Mr Oosthuizen? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Who exactly went to Pietersburg to undertake this sabotage? MR COETZEE If I recall correctly, Chairperson, myself, Mr Pitse and R114. MR VISSER And before the explosion, did you do reconnaissance work to see what was going on there and in order to determine where to place the devices? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you also participate in this? MR COETZEE Yes, I participated and they were under my control. MR VISSER Now you have said that Mr Pitse became a police officer. What happened to Mr Pitse? MR COETZEE Mr Pitse, until he died in 19 ... I assume it was 1995 or '96, he was a serving member of the South African Police Services. MR VISSER And how did he die? MR COETZEE I only know that he committed suicide. MR VISSER Was anyone injured or killed during this operation in the Northern Transvaal? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER You say that this credibility exercise did not have the wanted effect and the operational programme of Mr Pitse was suspended and you just mention that for information, is that correct. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Because it was determined that his action was weak because no-one was injured. MR COETZEE That's correct. MR VISSER You've already said in your application as to why you acted in the manner you did and you have also referred to the general background. This incident took place against the background of the struggle of the past and you request amnesty for the acts that were committed by you, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR MALAN May I just ask one follow-up question. On page 14, Mr Coetzee, second paragraph at the asterisk, are you referring to another MK member that infiltrated with Pitse into the RSA and was attested under number 0445840/1 CL Pitse? Is that correct, is that how they were registered, under Pitse's name? MR COETZEE Yes, he was taken in employment under his proper name. MR MALAN But you are not referring to Pitse, you refer to another MK? MR COETZEE The other MK is unknown, Chairperson, the one to which I refer. MR MALAN But please listen to the question, Mr Coetzee. In the final sentence you say, that's the third-last line "This particular member (this is the unknown member) at a later stage was attested to as a member of the SAP" and then you give a Pitse number. MR COETZEE Chairperson, I actually refer there to the attestation of Pitse and not to the unknown person. MR MALAN The other unknown person, was he also attested? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR MALAN Then I do not understand the meaning of that paragraph. Can we scrap that? It was only the fear that he had harboured that he would be attached to the arrest of the other member? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN Thank you. MR VISSER Chairperson, may I explain. The final sentence should be a new paragraph, that would make it quite clear. MR MALAN It still does not make it clear, because the other member is still attested as Pitse. MR VISSER The problem with the statement was that Pitse is referred to as the particular member and reference is made R114 as the particular agent and it becomes confusing when there is more than one member and more than one agent. MR MALAN Very well, thank you. MR MOTLOUNG Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, may I at this stage ask for a short adjournment, the reason being as follows. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR MOTLOUNG I'm asking for your indulgence to quickly consult with the father of the late Mr Pitse. In fact, this morning when I indicated earlier on to Mr Steenkamp that I've never had the opportunity even to consider the documents and/or consult with him, it was mutually suggested between the two of us that having had the opportunity to listen to the evidence that was presented by the applicant, I may, if I so wish, ask the Chairperson for an opportunity to briefly consult with my clients. CHAIRPERSON How long is it going to take? MR MOTLOUNG Judge, I can't see it exceeding 10 minutes, the maximum. It's just that I wish to make sure that my clients understand what is happening and they have listened to the evidence themselves. CHAIRPERSON Yes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION WILLEM HELM COETZEE (s.u.o.) MR MOTLOUNG Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any questions? MR MOTLOUNG I have one or two, yes Judge. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTLOUNG Mr Coetzee, who is R114? MR COETZEE That was a contract member, Chairperson. MR MOTLOUNG I'm looking for the name. MR COETZEE Chairperson, at this stage I would not like to identify any persons. CHAIRPERSON Is it absolutely necessary that you want to identify that person? MR MOTLOUNG That is so, Mr Chairperson. It is in fact my instructions that as far as the family of the deceased is concerned, this is particularly what they want to know. CHAIRPERSON Why? Of what help is that going to be? I'll tell you I ask, why I adopt this attitude. There's a majority decision, not a unanimous decision of this Panel, earlier in an earlier matter, that ruled that it is not necessary for the applicant to answer that question. It falls within the realms of practice of the legal criminal system as we know it. MR MOTLOUNG Judge, if you say it I'm prepared to accept it, it is only a great pity that the - I must confess that I was not aware that majority decision. I'm sure that the context within which that decision or ruling was made, would be interesting to know. CHAIRPERSON No well look, there was a similar question asked by another representative, there was a refusal and the matter was argued. And while we did not give reasons, the rationale behind the reasons is based on the fact that in the normal course of criminal hearings, in the interests in the machinery of justice, the identity of agents are kept undisclosed. MR MOTLOUNG Okay, thank you. Mr Coetzee, did you know Moses ...(indistinct) Nkabinde? CHAIRPERSON I didn't hear the question. MR MOTLOUNG Did you know Moses ...(indistinct) Nkabinde? MR COETZEE Chairperson, yes. MR MOTLOUNG And tell me Sir, R114, to your knowledge, is he or she applying for amnesty? CHAIRPERSON Is he or she? MR MOTLOUNG Is he or she applying for amnesty? MR COETZEE I'm the only applicant, Chairperson. MR MOTLOUNG I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON No, amnesty in any matter or this matter? MR MOTLOUNG In any matter for that matter. MR COETZEE I'm the only applicant, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON No, do you know whether that person has at any time applied for amnesty for anything? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that, Chairperson. MR MALAN But most certainly you can say whether you know or don't know. MR COETZEE I don't know, Chairperson. MR MALAN That's all you have to say. MR MOTLOUNG Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLOUNG CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, have you got anything? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee, the assault on Mr Pitse, did I hear you correctly that you struck him one blow with the open hand? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, two or three blows. CHAIRPERSON In his face? MR COETZEE Not ever again afterwards and thereafter never again. CHAIRPERSON But where on his body did you strike him? MR COETZEE On his chest, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And that was enough to convince him ... He did not deny that he was an MK member? MR COETZEE Not at all, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you convinced that he was a trained member of MK? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And two or three slaps convinced him that he had to admit that he was a member of MK? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, because I confronted him with all the information, as I have testified. CHAIRPERSON And how long did it take to convince him that he should become an agent for you? MR COETZEE On a continual basis, he right from the start cooperated. He was confronted, Chairperson ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee, I am asking a simple question, I am not looking for an answer accompanied by the history. I am only asking how long it took from the time that he was arrested to the day that he said yes, I shall become an agent? That is all. It's just a matter of time. MR COETZEE I would say within the time period of 48 hours. CHAIRPERSON And was he not assaulted during that time? MR COETZEE Not at all, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What convinced him to become an agent? MR COETZEE He was caught in a police network, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now, I'm not certain whether this is the case, but I would imagine somewhere that I read that he was unlawfully detained for approximately 14 days. Unlawfully detained. Is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So if he, within 48 hours, had agreed to become your agent, then the following 12 days was irrelevant, then he was a willing detainee. Is that not so? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, but it was my modus operandi. CHAIRPERSON No, we are not referring to a modus operandi, we - in order to commit an abduction the detention of a person has to be against his will, is that not so? Do you recall the Act? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So if he was a willing detainee, then you did not commit an abduction from the time period that he agreed. MR COETZEE I will state it as such, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So where was he detained afterwards? MR COETZEE He lived with me at the safe premises, Chairperson, in the Midrand. CHAIRPERSON And before that? Before he agreed, was he in a police cell? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR MOTLOUNG Where was he detained? MR COETZEE As I've already said, at a safehouse in Nietverdiend, where he was questioned Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well. When he was confronted with these arms and he was hit and then he admitted that he was a member of MK, and with all this history that you have supplied to us now, did he know the identity of the other person? He must have worked it out, is that not so? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And tell me, that was the risk you ran by having this man know who the other guy was. Is that not so? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So if he at the end of the day refused to become your agent, after he found out who the other person was, what would have happened to him? MR COETZEE We would have charged him, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Only that? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Would you not have killed him as usually? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Because now he knew too much and he knew the identity of the other person? MR COETZEE That is why, Chairperson, we would have charged him. CHAIRPERSON But he can still disclose the identity of that person to his people. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was it not the modus operandi, I'm not saying that it was yours, but the modus operandi usually of the Security Police was that if such important information came into the hands of the enemy, then that person would be killed, because he must not convey such information? MR COETZEE Yes, it has been testified to that effect in previous hearings, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But do you know that that was indeed the case? MR COETZEE Not in this regard, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON No, I'm speaking in general. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So why is this the exception? MR COETZEE Because he had been infiltrated, I had all the evidence with me and I had the cooperation of 114. They were quite close to each other Chairperson, 114 as well as the other members to whom I refer at the arrest, assisted later in talking to the man and to get him to work with us. CHAIRPERSON No, my question is simple. You have already said that you know that the normal practice if the enemy was supplied with certain information, important information, for example the identity of one of your agents, then he would be taken out. You are saying in this case Mr Pitse would not be taken out, but he would be charged and I am asking why was that the exception. MR COETZEE Chairperson, we never got to such a point. MR MALAN Mr Coetzee, can I speak to you? Please listen to the question. When you "arrested" him, you arrested him and in your conscience you thought that you would turn his head. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN Did you in any way consider what you would do if you were not successful? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR MALAN Did you not consider charging him? MR COETZEE To charge him, but there was no alternative. MR MALAN I am asking you did you consider what you would do, and you said no. So you say you would then charge him. Very well. And then the question follows that if you charged him, it is logical that you would only be able to charge him if R114's identity was disclosed, because you had to use R114 in that court case? MR COETZEE That's correct. MR MALAN Now the question from the Chairperson is, why would you disclose R114's identity and place him at risk? MR COETZEE At that stage there was only just one agent whose identity would be disclosed. MR MALAN That's R114? MR COETZEE Yes, R114. MR MALAN And R114 could have been killed by the enemy. MR COETZEE That is possible. MR MALAN Now the Chairperson's question is that you know of cases and you said yes, you know that indeed, because there was such a risk that an agent's identity would be disclosed and it was decided not to prosecute the person or not to release him, but to kill him. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN You know of such cases? MR COETZEE Yes. MR MALAN And you have heard of such cases? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN Now the question is, why could R114's identity be disclosed? Was he not important to you, or what was the reason? MR COETZEE He was important, Chairperson, but there's an end of the road for each and every agent. MR MALAN Did you in other cases come forward with prosecutions where agents who infiltrated, their identities were disclosed? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN So what was the norm for taking such a decision? When would you continue with prosecution and disclose identities and when would you feel - or maybe it's not a fair question to you, but in terms of your experience and your knowledge, is there a norm that was applied as to when you will continue with prosecution or would rather kill the person who was arrested or abducted? MR COETZEE I would say, Chairperson, it differs from case to case, Mr Pitse later was used in prosecutions Chairperson. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON The mines that were planted at the university, was it two different actions or was this done in one go? MR COETZEE In one go, Chairperson. The first placing, you can see that in two actions, the first one and then directly afterwards the second one. CHAIRPERSON Did it not take place at two different times? MR COETZEE One day within 10 minutes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And how long after the one did the other detonate? MR COETZEE More-or-less - we were not at the scene Chairperson, but according to the media, 30 minutes thereafter, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Would you be satisfied to describe it as one operation? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It was meant as one operation? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON To mislead the ANC that this man was still favourably inclined towards them? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, are there any other witnesses? MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairperson, no, we have no further evidence to present. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motloung, have you got any witnesses? MR MOTLOUNG No thanks, Judge. ADV STEENKAMP No thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motloung, is there still opposition to the application? MR MOTLOUNG Mr Chairperson, in the light of the ruling that you have brought to my attention, there will be no opposition to the application. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser, just one question, it's an issue of one or two charges or sabotage. What is your attitude? MR VISSER Chairperson, with respect, it can obviously be regarded as one action, but technically it's probably two. CHAIRPERSON So you would request for two? MR VISSER Yes, I would request for two. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, what is your attitude with regard to the application? ADV STEENKAMP Chairperson, I have no comment. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, we do not have to hear you. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We shall reserve judgment and let you know when we are ready. MR VISSER Is there a roll left this week, or is this the last matter? CHAIRPERSON I think this is the last case. ADV STEENKAMP That will be the roll, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We are adjourned. HEARING ADJOURNS