amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-12-06 JOHANNESBURG 7 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54001&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/2001206jb.htm CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. This is a continuation. Today is the 6th of December 2000, and it's a continuation of the applications of Antonie Jagga and three others. We sat again in Bloemfontein the last time in this matter, from the 13th to the 15th of November and I caused certain people to be subpoenaed, in the interest of justice, and we shall continue in that respect. The Committee, for the record, I am Motata, chairing this hearing and on my right I have Mr Lax and on my left I have Mr Sibanyoni. I would just say, for the purposes of the record, would the legal representatives place themselves on the record once more. MR VISSER As it pleases you, Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Louis Visser, instructed by Wagener Muller Attorneys, and I act for the four applicants before you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. It's Malindi, M-a-l-i-n-d-i, I represent the victims. I appear with my attorney, Mr Koopedi, who is not in at the moment but will be joining this team later during the course of the day. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Malindi. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Sir. I am Zuko Mapoma, the Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mapoma. For the purposes of clarity I may place on record that one of the witnesses I called in, Mr Tsolo, would be led by Mr Visser, with my permission. MR VISSER Yes, Chairperson, I was given to understand by my attorney that he contacted you when it was learnt that Mr Tsolo was subpoenaed and that he informed you that Mr Tsolo had in fact consulted with him as his client at the beginning of the amnesty process and that you kindly then suggested that we should then lead him in evidence. I confirm that that is the position. CHAIRPERSON I confirm the position, you may proceed. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, Mr Mafube, M-a-f-u-b-e, John Tsolo, T-s-o-l-o, is present, he has no objection to taking the oath. He prefers to speak in Sotho, Chairperson, and he wishes me to address my questions to him in Afrikaans. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. PROBLEMS EXPERIENCED WITH MICROPHONES MAFUBE JOHN TSOLO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Tsolo, are you also known as Jackie? INTERPRETER Please repeat the question, then let's try again. MR VISSER Mr Tsolo, are you also known as Jackie? MR TSOLO That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What work are you doing? MR TSOLO I'm a member of the South African Police, at the Maseru border. MR VISSER What rank do you have? MR TSOLO I am an Inspector, Chairperson. MR VISSER When did you join the Police Force? MR TSOLO In 1980. MR VISSER Were you ever a member of the Security Branch at Ladybrand? MR TSOLO That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER From which point onwards? MR TSOLO From the end of 1985 to 1990. MR VISSER What were your duties at the Security Branch in Ladybrand? MR TSOLO I was working in the section for Trade Unions. MR VISSER Very well. Can you recall an incident during which you, along with someone else, went to Vereeniging in order to go and drop off a person there? MR TSOLO Yes I do, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you tell the Committee what you know about this. MR TSOLO There was a time when we were given an instruction that we should take a child to Vanderbijlpark, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you recall who gave you the instruction? MR TSOLO I'm not able to recall correctly. Between Tony Jagga and Mike Jantjie, one of them gave us an instruction, but I'm not able to recall which one between the two. MR VISSER Where was this instruction issued to you? MR TSOLO We were in the office. MR VISSER And where was this office? MR TSOLO In Ladybrand, in town. MR VISSER There was evidence from the applicants that during December 1987, they made use of a farm as a safe premises. Did you know anything of such a farm? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you ever visit a farm approximately 40 kilometres away from Ladybrand, where the Security Branch was working? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR LAX The farm was only about 15 kilometres out of Ladybrand, according tot he evidence we've heard. MR VISSER No, there was some confusion about that. The evidence, if I remember correctly, was that you travelled a certain distance with a tar road and then you turned for 15 kilometres. But it doesn't matter. My attorney seems to remember it's 22 kilometres, but ... MR LAX That's right, it was between 15 and 20-odd kilometres. MR VISSER Yes, Mr Tsolo, if I say 40 kilometres, it could also have been 20 or 10 kilometres, the question is simply whether you were aware of such a place which was being used by the Security Branch of Ladybrand. MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you ever hear that Jagga and Jantjie were busy with the recruitment of persons by the names of Betty Boom and Nomasonto Mashiya, Tax Sejanamane or Mr Ngono? Did you know anything about that? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER When you received the instruction at the office to take someone to Vanderbijlpark, could you just tell us, who was this person? MR TSOLO Which one, Chairperson? MR VISSER The person that you took to Vanderbijlpark. MR TSOLO It's a child, it was a small child. MR VISSER A male or female child? MR TSOLO I don't recall, Chairperson, as to whether he was female or a male. MR VISSER And did you take anything along with the child? MR TSOLO Her clothes in a suitcase and a letter. MR VISSER Can you recall how many letters there were? MR TSOLO Only one letter, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was there a name and an address on the envelope of the letter? MR TSOLO That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And was this the address in Vanderbijlpark? MR TSOLO Correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Who was the other person that accompanied you in taking the child? MR TSOLO Sgt Amos Mokonjulwa, Chairperson. MR VISSER And who was the senior between you and Mokonjulwa? MR TSOLO At that time, Chairperson, I was a Constable and he was a Sergeant. MR VISSER Very well. Did you open the envelope and see for yourself what the contents were? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you recall today what the address was which was written on the envelope? MR TSOLO I don't recall, Chairperson, but it was written something like Tsirella. It was written Tsirella. MR VISSER Were you told who the mother of this child was? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you and Amos departed with the child to Vanderbijlpark? MR TSOLO Correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER At what time did you depart for Vanderbijlpark? MR TSOLO Do you mean from Ladybrand to Vanderbijlpark, or Vanderbijlpark to Ladybrand? MR VISSER You can give us both times, first, from Ladybrand. MR TSOLO It was - we left in the morning and then I think we returned just before lunch because we arrived in Ladybrand when we returned around 4 o'clock. MR LAX Sorry, what time did you get to Vanderbijlpark? MR VISSER Just before lunch he said. MR TSOLO I don't remember the exact date, but it was somewhere around lunchtime, because we didn't spend much time at ...(indistinct) MR LAX Thank you. MR VISSER Did you find the address or the place? MR TSOLO That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Tell the Committee what happened once you arrived there. MR TSOLO When we arrived we found a woman, then we gave her the letter. We requested her to read the letter. I don't remember as to whether she read the letter, then thereafter she said there's no problem, then we handed over the child, then we returned. MR VISSER And after you had been at the address, did you visit another address as well? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson, after that we went by foot, then we returned, because we left the township, then we went to town to buy food, then we returned to Ladybrand. MR VISSER You see, there has been evidence before the Committee, that there were two letters which you took there and you first went to the house of the Mokhele's and that afterwards you went to the house of the Mashiyas. CELLPHONE RINGING CONTINUOUSLY MR VISSER I will repeat it for you. There was evidence that you and Amos went with the child to the house of the man, or husband of one of the persons who was taken from Lesotho to a farm at Ladybrand. Do you follow? MR TSOLO I don't follow you, Chairperson. MR VISSER I will try to simplify it. There has been evidence that you first went to the house of a Mrs Mokhele and that you left the child there and that you then went to the house of Mrs Mashiya. Did that take place? MR TSOLO According to my recollection, we found the address which appeared on the envelope. That is where we left the child, without any problem. MR VISSER And where did you go then? MR TSOLO We went to town, bought food and returned to Ladybrand. MR VISSER So you did not go to another house and speak to somebody else? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson, not according to my recollection. MR VISSER I have already referred to that, but I want to ask you pertinently, Mrs Mokhele testified that you had two letters which you gave to her, can you recall this? MR TSOLO If there were two letters, we would not know, but we only had one envelope. MR VISSER Are you then saying that it is possible that there may have been two letters in the same envelope? MR TSOLO That is possible, Chairperson. MR VISSER Furthermore she says that she refused to accept one of the letters and that she told you that you yourselves should take the letter to Mrs Mashiya. Did that take place? MR TSOLO Not according to my recollection, Chairperson. MR VISSER And once you had completed your instruction, did you or Amos report back to anybody? MR TSOLO If I recall well, Sgt Amos contacted either W/O Jantjie or W/O Jagga that we've arrived. Then we went home. MR VISSER And how was that contact established? MR TSOLO We used the car radio. MR VISSER The police radio? INTERPRETER Please repeat the last part. MR VISSER Did you use the two-way police radio? MR TSOLO That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Tsolo, I think I may have asked you this, but just in conclusion, did you ever have anything to do with a person by the name of Betty Boom? MR TSOLO I don't know that person, Chairperson. MR VISSER Or Nomasia Mashiya? MR TSOLO I don't know the person, Chairperson. MR VISSER Or Tax Sejanamane? MR LAX Sorry, can I just get your answer to the right name, which is Nomasonto Mashiya. You never had any dealings with her? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER And Tax Sejanamane? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER And Mbulelo Ngono? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER I just want to refer you ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, before you go there Mr Visser, the other name that Mbulelo Ngono was known as was KK, did you ever have dealings with a person called KK? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER You never heard of such a person before? MR TSOLO You mean whilst I was still working at the Security Branch, Chairperson? MR LAX Correct. MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI I'm sorry, you said you had never had dealings with Nomasonto Mashiya, did you ever hear of such a name during your duties at Ladybrand? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER We have a bundle in this hearing and on page 42 of this bundle, in paragraph 6, a certain Hatiso Kadi makes certain allegations. Now I want to ask you, do you know a person by the name of Kadi? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER By what name do you know him? MR TSOLO I know him as Victor. MR VISSER Now he says that you, Thulo and Fouche interrogated him - well I'm not sure whether I'm reading this correctly, my paragraph talks about a tackle, I'm not quite sure what's going on here ... CHAIRPERSON What paragraph would that be? MR VISSER It's 6, the second-last sentence. MR LAX It's in fact one sentence, it starts with "In Ladybrand, I was interrogated by Michael, hereinafter referred to as Mike Jantjie, ..." MR VISSER Oh, comma. MR LAX ... and then it looks like "tackle", there's something blanked out "Thulo, Tsolo and Fouche" MR VISSER Perhaps I should then rephrase the question. INTERPRETER It seems the name is Taole. MR VISSER Who? INTERPRETER Taole, it should be a Sotho name. MR LAX Ja, it's not tackle, it's T-a-o-l-e. INTERPRETER Jantjie, Taole. MR VISSER Did you ever interrogate Mr Kadi? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you know whether he started cooperating with the Security Branch? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER As what? MR TSOLO He was an askari, Chairperson. MR VISSER And could this have happened in 1986? MR TSOLO I don't remember the year, Chairperson. MR VISSER At the top of page 42 in the bundle, in paragraph 7, Mr Kadi states that in 1986 he and Mike Jantjie and Koki Thulo and Jackie Tsolo, Celo and Colin Robertshaw and Capt Fouche and Lieut du Plessis, went to Lesotho, where the ANC Chief Representative, Mr Mageta, was kidnapped. Do you anything about this? MR TSOLO I don't know about the kidnapping, but I know Mr Mageta. MR VISSER Do you indeed know whether Mr Mageta was abducted? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER How do you know Mr Mageta? MR TSOLO When they wanted to leave they requested me to stay behind with him. MR VISSER You will just have to clarify that for us. Who are you referring to when you say that they wanted to leave? MR TSOLO I'm referring to Mr Jantjie, Capt Robertshaw and Jagga and Thulo, they would instruct me to stay behind with this person. MR VISSER And where were you supposed to stay? MR TSOLO In an office, Chairperson. MR VISSER Could you just tell us where. MR TSOLO In Ladybrand in the Security Branch offices. MR VISSER And what were you supposed to do with Mr Mageta? MR TSOLO ...(no interpretation) CHAIRPERSON Could you repeat the question, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Why did you have to stay behind, what were you supposed to do regarding Mr Mageta? MR TSOLO Just to stay there, because in our offices we'd have top secret files, then that would the reason that I would staying there, just to guard. MR VISSER To look after him? MR TSOLO That is correct, Chairperson, I think that's one of the reasons. MR VISSER Was he under arrest? MR TSOLO I don't know, Chairperson. MR VISSER But you were just told to look after him? MR TSOLO I was instructed to guard that person, but I was not supposed to ask questions why. MR VISSER Is this all that you can add to this whole aspect that we conveyed to you this morning concerning the amnesty applications? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry. The question was, is this all that you have to contribute with regard to these applications and your answer was no. Do you mean yes? Have you got anything more you want to tell us? Let's put it that way, more positively. MR TSOLO In short, what I would explain is that at the time when I arrived at the Security Branch in 1985, I was instructed that I will be working with top secret information, therefore I'm not supposed to ask questions which are not relevant to me. Therefore, in short, I was instructed that we're working under the need-to-know basis. If you see a person you are not supposed to ask who is this person, where does he come from. So you would only concentrate on things which are relevant to you and to your work. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's all from this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Malindi, any cross-examination? MR MALINDI Chairperson, if the Committee will allow me, I would to have at least 10 minutes of consultation with the victims before I cross-examine. CHAIRPERSON We'll allow you, we'll take the tea adjournment immediately and say we reconvene in 20 minutes time. Is that convenient for you? MR MALINDI That will be convenient, thank you Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Chairperson, before you ask Mr Malindi to continue, could I ask for an indulgence, on going through my notes it appeared that there are two small matters that I neglected to canvass with the witness. Could I do that with your permission? CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. MR MALINDI And before I do that, Chairperson, Mr Tsolo is a man who hails from the freezing state and the heat, either the atmospheric heat, or the heat of the questioning is catching up with him, he asked me to ask you whether you can please allow him to take off his jacket. CHAIRPERSON Those who feel hot may do so. Before you start, Mr Visser, may I just remind you Mr Tsolo, that you are still under oath. MAFUBE JOHN TSOLO (s.u.o.) FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Tsolo, I just forgot to ask you, there was evidence of Mrs Mokhele that you and Amos presented yourselves as members of MK. Can you recall if this is true? MR TSOLO Even if I don't recall, Chairperson, it may be so. MR VISSER And concerning the other aspect, there was evidence from the applicants that the border control at Maseru was very lax in 1987. Was that your experience, or was your experience something else? MR TSOLO It was lax, in which way Chairperson? MR VISSER That they did not ask for passports, vehicles were not searched and that Jagga and Jantjie and Thulo could go through the border post quite freely. MR TSOLO That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What is the position today? You are at the Maseru border post? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson, I would say it's even worse. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON When you say "even worse", what do you mean? MR TSOLO I'm saying that at that time the border control was the responsibility of the police, but today there is an addition of the Home Affairs staff, so among the Home Affairs staff there is no discipline. CHAIRPERSON Were you people known, I'm referring to the Ladybrand Security Police, were you known to personnel at the border? MR TSOLO Mainly in Maseru, Chairperson, we were. CHAIRPERSON What about the border, the border post? MR TSOLO That is correct, Chairperson, they knew us. MR LAX Mr Tsolo, did you go to Lesotho with any of the following people: Jantjie, Thulo, Robertshaw or Jagga - Yaya, as he's called? MR TSOLO I used to go with one of them, going to pay an informer, because no-one was allowed to go turn over money alone, so I would accompany one of them as a witness for the payment. It would be either Thulo or Jantjie. MR LAX How regularly did you go into Lesotho, at that time? MR TSOLO I would go mainly during weekends for entertainment. I would not remember how many times did I go. MR LAX And in the course of your duties? MR TSOLO I would go there seldomly, because I was working within the section of the Trade Unions. MR LAX So if you went there seldomly, as you put it, you can't tell us what the condition was when Jantjie, Thulo, Robertshaw or Yaya went through the border? MR TSOLO I don't understand your question, Chairperson. MR LAX Well if you didn't go with them when they went on their operations, you can't comment on what the border may have been like when they went through. MR TSOLO ...(no interpretation) CHAIRPERSON That's right, you can't comment on whether the border was lax or not when they went through on their operations. That's the question. MR LAX Because you weren't present. MR TSOLO According to my observation, from Ladybrand to the border, it's 15 kilometres only, so I would have appointments with my girlfriend who would come to the border gate, so I would be able to observe the situation there. MR LAX You're not answering the question. The question is specifically in regard to the applicants in this matter. Did you not hear that? I'm not asking you about what you might have done with your girlfriend, I'm asking you about the applicants. CHAIRPERSON The question is, since you did not accompany people like Yaya, Thulo, Jantjie and Mr Robertshaw when they did some operations in Lesotho, you wouldn't know when they went through the border post, what it was like. Like you have said, for instance, it was lax. MR TSOLO I would not know when they passed through the border post what was the situation. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Tsolo, you have confirmed that you know the person whose given a statement in the bundle, from page 42, Hatiso Kadi, as Victor. MR TSOLO That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And you have confirmed that he worked in Ladybrand as an askari. MR TSOLO That is so, Chairperson. MR MALINDI While you were part of the Security Branch in Ladybrand, how many askaris do you estimate were being used in Ladybrand? MR TSOLO If I'm not wrong, there would be four. I remember four now. MR MALINDI Do you know where, or how these askaris were recruited? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Mr Tsolo, when you handed over this child in Vanderbijlpark, you certainly didn't introduce yourselves as police, am I correct? MR TSOLO Do you mean when we arrived at Vanderbijlpark? If I recall well, we did not introduce ourselves as policemen. MR MALINDI After you've had this break, do you perhaps now remember how you introduced yourself to the woman to whom you handed over the baby? MR TSOLO I do not recall, but I think we were briefed and we were told that we should introduce ourselves as members of the MK. MR MALINDI Were you also told what explanation you must give for the absence of the child's mother at the handing over of the baby? MR TSOLO What we were told is that we should deliver the letter and the child and the person who received the letter should read the letter and then we should return to Ladybrand. MR MALINDI And you were not told to say if you were asked where is the mother? MR TSOLO Because everything was in the letter, I think the letter explained what was happening. MR MALINDI Okay. You had not read the letter, that's what you think? MR TSOLO Yes, that is what I think, because they did not tell us what to say ...(end of side A of tape) MR MALINDI ... the baby, you and Mokonjulwa, you did not see the mother at all, did you? MR TSOLO No, we did not, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Do you remember to whom the letter was addressed, whose name appeared on the envelope? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI You said that as part of the address on the envelope there was a work Tsirella, is that correct? MR TSOLO I don't know the townships in Vanderbijlpark, that is why I mentioned the name Tsirella, because I know it's one of the townships in Vanderbijlpark. MR MALINDI As I understood your evidence, it was to the effect that as part of the address on the envelope, the letter had to be delivered somewhere in Tsirella. Did you see the word Tsirella on the envelope, or didn't you? MR TSOLO I mentioned Tsirella because I only remembered Tsirella as one of the townships in Vanderbijlpark, I do not remember other townships. I mentioned this in order to show the difference between Vanderbijlpark and the townships, because I know in Vereeniging there is Sebokeng and I forgot other townships. CHAIRPERSON You said in your evidence-in-chief that the envelope was written something like Tsirella, that's what I took down, something like Tsirella. Now you say you know a township in Vanderbijlpark, because you have this knowledge that there is a township like Tsirella. What counsel wants to know from you, was the envelope written Tsirella? Can you recall that specifically? MR TSOLO I do not recall, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When you were told to take the child, where were you told to go? MR TSOLO To that address that was written on the envelope, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So if that is the case there must have been Tsirella on the envelope. MR TSOLO I do not recall, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. The reason I pose this question is because the Mokheles, where the child was delivered, live in Bupilong, which is a township in Vanderbijlpark. Have you ever heard of Bupilong? MR TSOLO Yes, it's one of the townships that I forgot, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And my instructions are that another township in Vanderbjilpark, known as Boipatong, is also known as Tsirella. Do you know that? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson. MR MALINDI So this confusion about what was on the address, is as a result of you forgetting the detail of what you did around this particular incident, is it not so? MR TSOLO Which other things you say I have forgotten, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON No, no, answer the question. MR TSOLO It can happen, Chairperson, because this happened many years ago. MR MALINDI You see, as Mr Visser indicated to you in-chief, the evidence of the Mokhele family and the Mashiya family is that they each received a letter in respect of this baby, is it possible that you may have forgotten that two letters were delivered at two different places? MR TSOLO I remember that well, Chairperson, we delivered only one letter, although I don't know how many letters were in the envelope. MR MALINDI Did I hear your evidence well, that you walked to the Mokhele's house from Vanderbijlpark and you walked back from the house to Vanderbijlpark, from where you left for Ladybrand? Am I correct or incorrect? MR TSOLO May you please repeat your question, Chairperson. MR MALINDI From Ladybrand, did you drive directly to the house where you had delivered the baby, or not? MR TSOLO Because we did not know the place, we had to ask about the other townships in that area. Well I don't recall whether we started in town, on our way to Vanderbijlpark, or we went straight to the township, I do not recall that. CHAIRPERSON Did you drive to the house from Ladybrand? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. I just want clarity. Did you park the car outside this house and took out the baby and handed over the baby, or where was the car? MR TSOLO Yes, we parked the car outside the house. MR MALINDI You testified that the baby was handed to you at Ladybrand, in town, are you perhaps not mistaken, was the baby not handed to you in the farm in, on a farm in Ladybrand? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI You are certain about that? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson, I'm certain. MR MALINDI Chairperson, may I have a second to take instructions? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR MALINDI Thank you very much, Chairperson. Mr Tsolo, do you remember amongst the members of the Security Branch, who actually handed the baby over to you and Mr Mokonjulwa? MR TSOLO I do not recall well between Mr Jantjie and Mr Jagga, one of them. I do not know recall who between them. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Malindi. Mr Mapoma. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Tsolo, you say you were given a briefing before you were ordered, when you were instructed to send the child to Vanderbijlpark, what briefing were you given? MR TSOLO We were given the child and the letter and we were told that this letter should be delivered together with the child to that address that appeared on the envelope, and if we were to be asked who we were, we should introduce ourselves as members of the MK. They never told us about the mother of the child. MR MAPOMA Why were you to introduce yourselves as members of MK? MR TSOLO It is because we were told that we should not ask questions, we should just carry out the instructions, so because of that we could not ask questions. Like I have mentioned that we were working per need-to-know basis. MR MAPOMA So is your answer that you don't know why you were to introduce yourselves as members of MK then? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson, I do not know, but I thought that because this involved members of the MK, but because we were not supposed to ask questions, we did not. MR MAPOMA What did you know as involving members of MK? MR TSOLO Personally I thought that this matter should be involving members of the MK. MR MAPOMA Why did you think that? MR TSOLO It is because we were told that if we were to be asked questions, we should introduce ourselves as members of the MK. CHAIRPERSON If you were to be asked where did you get this child, what would you say? MR MAPOMA We did not think about that, Chairperson, but I think we would say we came with the child from Ladybrand. CHAIRPERSON And where's the mother? MR TSOLO That would be difficult for us because we were supposed to give the letter and the child only. CHAIRPERSON If I remember well, and you'll bear me, and counsel will assist me in this regard, I think it was Mrs Mashiya, she said to us that you said you were sent by Sonti, to deliver the child. That's what you said to her. MR LAX ...(indistinct - no microphone) CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. She says - I'll read to you "They told us that they were sent by Sonti" Starting from page 733, Mrs Mashiya, she says they had gone to Lesotho and they had to come back because they didn't have the necessary papers to enter Lesotho. Then she says: "We went back home. When we arrived at home, the two people arrived with the car late in the afternoon and when they arrived they told us that they had been sent by Sonti, to bring the child and they told us that they have left the child at Mokhele's place. She had told them that if they were not present at home, they should take the child to the Mokhele family. "They told us that they were sent by Sonti" MR TSOLO I do not recall that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Could it have happened? MR TSOLO That name is not that difficult, I don't think I can forget that name, I would be able to remember that we said we were sent by Sonti. CHAIRPERSON The briefing, was it not in anticipation of questions asked by whoever had to receive the child? MR TSOLO My impression was that everything was contained in the letter, that is why we were not given enough information about this matter. CHAIRPERSON You see why I'm asking you this is that you get there and say: "We are members of the MK", then it would appear that you should have been friends to the people who sent you with the child. MR TSOLO That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And if they ask you about the whereabouts of the parent of the child, you were able to tell them where the parent would be. Wouldn't that be so? MR TSOLO That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But none of this was told to you, it's merely: "Give them the letter to read and just say 'we are MK'", and thereafter, leave. MR TSOLO That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA You will recall that you said in your evidence-in-chief that you delivered the baby and the letter and you asked the lady whom you gave the letter to, to read it. Why did you ask her to read it? MR TSOLO The reason was that everything was contained in the letter. We wanted her to understand where the child is from. MR MAPOMA How did you know that everything was contained in the letter? MR TSOLO We were told before we left Ladybrand, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Did you not read the letter? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson, the letter was sealed. MR MAPOMA Are you sure that you never read that letter? Are you sure, Mr Tsolo? MR TSOLO Yes, I am sure, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA So if somebody comes to this Committee and says that you read that letter, that person must be lying? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson, he'll be lying. MR MAPOMA When you were briefed and given the letter and the child, was it yourself and Mr Mokonjulwa present? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And the person who briefed you? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Were you briefed by one of the two, that is Mr Jagga and Mr Jantjie, or both? MR TSOLO One of them, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA You know, Mr Jagga's evidence was that you and Mr Mokonjulwa read the letter. What do you say to that? MR TSOLO I do not recall that, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Actually, it's on page 45, Chairperson, of the transcript for the hearing of the 10th, 12th and the 13th of October 2000. On page 45, at the bottom, Mr Visser asks Mr Jagga "Did you at the time in 1987, read what she stated in the note?" ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just bring me up to speed, what page are you talking about? MR MAPOMA It's page 45, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I just see Jantjie, not Jagga. MR MAPOMA I'm referring to Mr Jantjie, Chairperson, I'm sorry. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Mr Jantjie's evidence is clear here, he says "No, I did not, the people who read that letter were Tsolo and Mokonjulwa." Is this incorrect? MR TSOLO I think he's lying, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And again, following upon what asked you, he says, Mr Jantjie, on page 45, just up "We asked two of my co-workers, that is Tsolo and Mokonjulwa. Nomasonto wrote a letter and she directed them where the place is. The place is they should go in Sebokeng, and she gave them the names of the people who were staying at that place." What I'm reading to you is that you saw Nomasonto, according to Jantjie. MR TSOLO I have never seen her, I don't know her Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And the impression is that it was at the farm where Nomasonto was, where she handed the baby over, not at Ladybrand. MR TSOLO I think that is a mistake, Chairperson, we were given the child in Ladybrand. CHAIRPERSON Did you know of the farm, or heard of the farm? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Visser? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER MR LAX Just one question, Chair. You were asked to guard Mr Mokhele, you told us. Do you remember saying that? MR TSOLO I said ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, Mr Mageta, I beg your pardon. I got the name wrong. Mr Mageta. MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson. MR LAX Why do you normally guard people? MR TSOLO Like I have already explained before, we were not supposed to ask questions, we were just told that: "You should guard this person and there were top secret files in that office, that is what you are supposed to do". MR LAX Don't you guard someone when they're a prisoner? Isn't that obvious, even if you don't ask questions? MR TSOLO That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Mr Mageta wasn't free to get up and go home if he wanted to, you would have prevented that surely? MR TSOLO That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX How long did you guard him for? MR TSOLO It could not be a long time, although I do not recall, it could be between an hour and two hours, Chairperson. MR LAX And how long was he in the office at Ladybrand? MR TSOLO I do not recall well Chairperson, because most of the time I would leave the office, but I think I saw him for one day or two days there, Chairperson. MR LAX And do you know what happened to him after that? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR LAX Now did I hear you say correctly that - or let me ask you this. Were are you stationed now, in Ladybrand? MR TSOLO At the Maseru border post, but under Ladybrand, Chairperson. MR LAX Well that's what I would have thought, correct. You are based in Ladybrand? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson. MR LAX When did you drive here for this hearing? MR TSOLO On Sunday, Chairperson. MR LAX And how long did it take you to drive here? MR TSOLO It took me about three hours, or more Chairperson. MR LAX What is the distance from Ladybrand to this part of the world? MR TSOLO It's more than 400 kilometres, Chairperson. MR LAX Are you not making a mistake that you got to the house where you delivered the child at midday, lunchtime? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson, I recall that well. MR LAX Are we talking about the same incident here? INTERPRETER May you please repeat the question, Chair. MR LAX Are we talking about the same incident? MR TSOLO Which incident, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The one under discussion. MR LAX Well what are we here to talk about? MR TSOLO If I recall well, I was asked when did I arrive here in Johannesburg, and then I said on Monday, now I do not understand the other question. MR LAX You see, I'm suggesting to you just to make it very clear, that it would have taken you longer, if you left in the morning, you wouldn't have arrived there at midday as you say. By the time you'd been briefed, by the time the child had been handed over to you, you would have arrived there later in the day. MR TSOLO To be honest, Chairperson, when we drive in the police cars we do not use the same speed as when we're driving our own cars. MR LAX I have no further questions, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni. MR SIBANYONI Mr Tsolo, I have this as part of my notes "We found the address written on the envelope. That's where we left the child. We went to town by foot and returned to Ladybrand" but when Mr Malindi was asking you whether did you drive up until the house where you dropped the child, you said yes. In fact, when the Chairperson was asking you - when Mr Malindi was asking you whether did you walk on foot, you denied that. So what is correct, what is the correct position? MR TSOLO The truth is that we went there with the car and we parked the car outside. MR SIBANYONI What did you mean when you said "We went to town by foot"? MR TSOLO If I recall well, I do not think that it's possible to walk on foot from that township to town. I think it's far for one to walk on foot. CHAIRPERSON What did you mean when you said "We walked by foot to town"? MR TSOLO I do not recall me saying that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I confirm what my Panel Member is saying, that's what you said. MR TSOLO It can happen that I made a mistake there, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. And then you also said if you had been asked where did you get the child, you would say from Ladybrand, where exactly in Ladybrand would you say you got the child? MR TSOLO At that time, Chairperson, I think we would decide what to say to them. MR SIBANYONI Were you never briefed to say where exactly would you say you got the child? MR TSOLO I do not recall, Chairperson. I do not recall whether they told us to say where we got the child, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Was the impression you were supposed to create to the people you are giving the child, that the mother is with the MK or ANC? Was that the impression you were supposed to create to the people where you were taking the child to? MR TSOLO Yes Chairperson, by saying that we were members of the MK, they would interpret that as such. MR SIBANYONI Don't you find it strange that you were never told about the mother of the child, according to your version? MR TSOLO Yes Chairperson, it is strange. MR SIBANYONI Why would Jantjie say that the mother directed you where to take the child, if that is not what happened? MR TSOLO I think he has made a mistake. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON This police car Mr Tsolo, you're talking about, was it marked? MR TSOLO No, Chairperson. MR VISSER What registration number did it bear, if you can recall? MR TSOLO If I recall well it was not its authentic registration numbers. CHAIRPERSON What was it, this not authentic registration? MR TSOLO It was certain numbers and then at the end the letter T. I do not recall the numbers, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That T would stand for the then Transvaal, I take it? MR TSOLO Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Anything arising from questions from the Panel, Mr Visser? MR VISSER No, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI No questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA No questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you ...(intervention) MR VISSER Can Mr Tsolo be excused, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON I wanted to short-circuit that, I thought you had something else on your mind. Thank you very much, Mr Tsolo, you are excused. MR TSOLO I thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I think, Mr Mapoma, you are next, you said you had a witness, the one I subpoenaed. MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, I have got three persons present, Ms Buthelezi, Mr Nthunya and Ms Mabece. I propose, Chairperson, to call Ms Mabece first because I think her evidence will be short. CHAIRPERSON Is she one of my witnesses? MR MAPOMA I'm not sure now. CHAIRPERSON The transcript will be of assistance to you. MR MAPOMA Oh no, she's not one of the witnesses you called, Chairperson, but she's present. I understand she was called by the legal representatives for the victims. CHAIRPERSON I recall - the legal representatives would correct me, I identified certain people, but I selected those I wanted and I said the legal representatives are free to call anyone of those, and it should it happen, there must be exchange of information to limit time. I don't know whether that has been done in this respect. MR MAPOMA I may have to find out from ... CHAIRPERSON I'll give you five minutes, gentlemen, to sort this out, so that I don't want us to be deliberating on non-issues. We'll take a five minutes adjournment, so that this can be sorted out. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma, between you and Mr Malindi, who is beginning? MR MALINDI Chairperson, from our side we propose to lead the following two witnesses, Lindelwa Mabece and Tsietsi Mokhele. In that order. Mr Koopedi will start with Ms Mabece and I will follow with Mr Mokhele. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, in which language is the witness going to testify? MR KOOPEDI She will testify in English, Chairperson, and she's ready to be sworn in. LINDELWA MABECE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you may be seated. Mr Koopedi. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. Ms Mabece, on page 44(a), page 50 of the bundle of documents before this Honourable Committee, there is a statement which was apparently written by you. Can you confirm whether this is or not your statement? MS MABECE It is my statement. MR KOOPEDI In this statement you state that you were a registered student at the National University of Lesotho. Can you tell this Honourable Committee when was this. MS MABECE Yes. I was a student from 1996 to 1992. MR KOOPEDI From 19? MS MABECE From 1996? MR LAX '86. MR KOOPEDI For the record could you state whether it was '96 or '86? MS MABECE '86. MR KOOPEDI From 1986 to when? MS MABECE 1992. MR KOOPEDI 1992. Now for all these years, were you always a student at the National University of Lesotho? Did you have breaks in the meantime? MS MABECE I did business studies at EMS, an institution for extramural studies which a division of the university, but I enrolled as a registered degree student in 1997. MR LAX Can I be clear, is it '87 or '97? MS MABECE Sorry, '87. MR KOOPEDI Please remember the difference between '80 and '90. MR SIBANYONI Or we should '80 for '90 whenever she says '90 ... MR KOOPEDI I think that will be very confusing. Now you know we're sitting here in connection with an application that involves Mbulelo Ngono. Did you know a person called Mbulelo Ngono? MS MABECE Yes, I did. MR KOOPEDI From where did you know this person? MS MABECE I met him in Roma, Roma village in Lesotho. MR KOOPEDI When was this when you met Mbulelo? MS MABECE 1987. MR KOOPEDI Do you remember when in '87, was it in June, February, December? MS MABECE I can't remember. CHAIRPERSON It was in the first of 1987, or the second part of '87? MS MABECE It could have been the second part, it was in early December. It was in early 1987. MR LAX ...(indistinct - no microphone) MS MABECE No, it wasn't. MR LAX Is wasn't. Sorry. MR KOOPEDI And how did you know Mbulelo, was there any relationship between the two of you? MS MABECE Yes, he was my boyfriend. MR KOOPEDI And what did you know him to do in Maseru or Lesotho? Was he employed somewhere, was he a student? MS MABECE He was a refugee, he was not employed and he was not a student. That's what I said. MR KOOPEDI Now how regularly did you see Mbulelo? MS MABECE Quite often. MR KOOPEDI Now on a particular day, Mbulelo was arrested in a ...(indistinct), do you remember this day? MS MABECE Yes, I do. MR KOOPEDI And perhaps before we go into what happened on that day, would you remember when was it that Mbulelo was arrested? MS MABECE It was around March/April 1988. MR KOOPEDI And where was he arrested? MS MABECE In my flat. MR KOOPEDI Is it possible that you could be making a mistake on this estimated day, that is March/April? Is it possible that the arrest could have happened during December 1987? MS MABECE It couldn't have happened in December. MR KOOPEDI Why? MS MABECE I normally - students normally leave early in December, because our semester is very short, I mean the December/January vacation is very short, so it couldn't have been at that time. I'm absolutely certain it wasn't December. MR KOOPEDI Now when this arrest happened, were you present? MS MABECE Yes, I was. MR KOOPEDI Could you briefly tell the Honourable Committee what happened, how the arrest was effected, by whom and how many people were there. MS MABECE "I was with my sister and Mbulelo, four men came to my flat and they asked us whether we knew Mbulelo - sorry, they asked me whether we know Kaiya and I responded since I was staying in that apartment, my sister was visiting, I said I don't know anybody by the name of Kayia. But then at first I thought they were referring to a Kayia who is my cousin, but I didn't think that they were actually - further I thought they were referring to him, but I didn't see the connection, why they could be asking me about Kayia who was in East London. They then asked us who we were and we told them that we were students and we were studying at the university. They wanted to see our student cards. I didn't want to produce my student card because I knew that Mbulelo was not a student and my sister did not have hers with her because she was not residing at my flat, she could have had her student card in her room at the campus. So they wanted to know why Mbulelo did not have his student card, then Mbulelo said he had his student card where he was staying. And they were not referring to him as Mbulelo as I am referring to now, they wanted to know who his real name was and he said to them he was Lucky Mahlungozi, and they said they would want to see the student card and to see the place where he stays, so that they can get the student card. But before they could do that they asked us, they asked me in particular, where was the - they said there was a door in my apartment leading to another room, then I said there was no such room. I had a small apartment which was a one bedroom and there was only one door which they had used. Then they said there must have been a door which was concealed by a wardrobe which was leaning against the wall. They removed the wardrobe. They could not find the door they were referring to. They then - I was seated on the bed with Mbulelo, and my sister was sitting on a chair opposite the bed, they then ordered us to stand up and we did. They lifted the bed, they found Mbulelo's bag. They opened it and they wanted to know who that bag belonged to and Mbulelo told them it was his. Then they wanted to take Mbulelo to where he was staying, but before they could do so, one of the four guys was asking Mbulelo where he had been and whether he had been to Angola, whether he was a trained MK soldier, and Mbulelo agreed that he had been to Angola. Then they took a belt off his waist, tied his hands and they said they want to take him to where he stays, so that he can get his student card and that while they were doing that, me and my sister should not leave the room. They then left with Mbulelo. They had come in a beige kombi. They drove off to where Mbulelo told them he was staying. While they were gone I requested my sister to quickly go Joe Mapumolo, one of Mbulelo's colleagues and our friend, to tell him what had actually transpired. So she left. While she had been gone the policemen came back with Mbulelo and he was not seated in an upright position in this kombi. I was ordered into the kombi. When I got into the kombi I found him lying on the floor of the back seat, and they drove us to the Roma Police Station. When we got to the Roma Police Station, I was ordered out and I don't know what happened to Mbulelo, that was the last time I saw him." MR KOOPEDI Now when you were ordered out, what happened to you, were you told to go home, were you taken anywhere? MS MABECE I was taken to the police station. I was detained. MR KOOPEDI And for how long were you detained? MS MABECE For three days. MR KOOPEDI And did you ever see Mbulelo again? MS MABECE No. MR KOOPEDI You are of course, familiar with the applications that are before this Honourable Committee, and the fact that the applicants allege that they came to your flat during December 1987. I want to ask you again, could you be making a mistake that they did come in December 1987? MS MABECE Definitely not, they never came in December. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now were you ever assaulted by any of the four people that came to your flat on that day? MS MABECE At the flat they clapped us, but it was not anything major. I was assaulted at the Roma Police Station. MR KOOPEDI And why were you assaulted there? What did they want from you? MS MABECE They asked me a lot of questions regarding Mbulelo's colleagues and their activities and I did not have the information they must have probably wanted. They thought perhaps if they assault me they would get the information, but I gave him the information, I mean the little information I knew, which is on my statement. MR KOOPEDI Now would you know the names of the four people that came to your flat on that day? MS MABECE I can't remember their names very well, but in the '90s I did get their names, but I can identify them. MR KOOPEDI You can identify them. MS MABECE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now can you tell whether whilst you were at the police station, did any of the four take part in interrogating you? The four that came. MS MABECE No. MR KOOPEDI These were new faces, so to speak? MS MABECE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now in your statement, the one we've referred to when we started off - page 50 Chairperson, that's where I am at, you state that at some stage you were requested by Mbulelo's family to come and see them in Port Elizabeth. Can you tell the Committee when was this. You can estimate, you may not remember the precise date. MS MABECE 1990, somewhere there. MR KOOPEDI Around 1990. MS MABECE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now please tell this Honourable Committee why were you called, why had you gone to visit the Ngonos and what actually happened when you were with the Ngonos, who did you see and meet with at the Ngonos. MS MABECE I was approached by the Council of Churches, who - some people, they were assisting the family in trying to find out what could have happened to Mbulelo and I had written statements to confirm that I was the last person to see him, so I was told to go and tell the family what had actually transpired the day he was arrested in my apartment. Then I was - I spoke to the mother, I told her exactly what had happened and I was also told that the family had instructed an attorney, Mr Majodini, to take up the matter on behalf of the family. I also wrote an affidavit of what had transpired in Lesotho. And the mother asked me questions relating to Mbulelo's state when the policemen arrested him, and I told him that he was fine. She showed me a photo - in fact, before she could show me the photo, she told me that one security policeman had been to see her and she showed a photo of Mbulelo and she wanted to know whether Mbulelo had a scar on his forehead. Then I said, no, Mbulelo had no scar when he was arrested in my apartment. She then showed me this photo and I saw the scar and I confirmed, I mean the photo confirmed what she was asking me, that there was a scar on Mbulelo's forehead, which was not there when he was arrested in my apartment. MR KOOPEDI Where on the forehead was this scar? MS MABECE Right above the eye, I'm not sure whether it was the left or the right, I can't remember clearly now. MR KOOPEDI Can you remember, or even estimate how long this scar was? MS MABECE It was a clearly visible scar. MR KOOPEDI But you cannot recall whether it was two centimetres, ten centimetres? MS MABECE It couldn't have been more than four centimetres, I think. MR KOOPEDI Now did you have a way of telling how old that photograph was? You know, was there a date on that photograph to tell you when was it taken? MS MABECE I didn't notice any date, I just looked at the picture, because the mother had talked about the scar and I was actually looking for what she was saying and then I saw the scar. MR KOOPEDI And what was this scar like, was it a fresh scar, what was the scar like? MS MABECE It didn't look fresh. MR KOOPEDI Was it healed or getting healed, what did it look like? MS MABECE It appeared as though it was completely healed, I mean on the surface. MR KOOPEDI Thank you. Chairperson, that will be the evidence-in-chief of this witness. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. Ms Mabece, do I understand correctly that you met Ngono around the second part of 1987, to the best of your recollection? In Roma. MS MABECE Yes, that's what I said. MR VISSER At the time you told us he was a refugee, did you know what he was doing in Lesotho? MS MABECE Not - no, I wouldn't know, but I had assumed that he was involved in all activities that refugees normally engaged in outside the country. MR VISSER And what would that be? MS MABECE All I know is that they were fighting for liberation, they would do what is expected of them by the organisation. MR VISSER Did you know at the time that there was a military wing of the ANC called Umkhonto weSizwe? MS MABECE Yes, I know. MR VISSER Was he a member of Umkhonto weSizwe? MS MABECE I presume so. MR VISSER Didn't you ever talk to him about that? Or didn't you know him well enough to ask him questions like that? MS MABECE As a South African I knew what a refugee is and I knew that he was ANC aligned, so he could have been Umkhonto weSizwe, but we never discussed those things. MR VISSER Did you meet any of his friends? MS MABECE I met some. MR VISSER Can you remember their names? MS MABECE They never told me who their real names were. MR VISSER Well the names they gave you. MS MABECE In fact, the few that I used to see him with, I actually gave them names myself, because they never introduced themselves. MR VISSER Alright. Did they come an visit at your flat? Those friends with Mbulelo, did they come and visit at your flat? MS MABECE Yes, some of them used to. MR VISSER To do what, just sit and talk or to have meetings? MS MABECE They used to come and chat and at times I would leave my apartment and I wouldn't know what they were discussing. MR VISSER And you would leave your apartment because you thought that they wanted privacy, correct? MS MABECE They would indicate to me when they want privacy, and I would leave. MR VISSER And at page 49, you stated, the last paragraph "I emphasise that Mbulelo was very secretive and independent" is that correct? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER He wouldn't tell you about what he was doing and where he was going and for how long he would be away? MS MABECE No, he wouldn't. MR VISSER And he would never tell you, you say, when he was going to be back, if he would be back at all? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER You see, why I'm referring you to this piece of evidence is because I want to ask you whether it would be true to say that if you didn't see him for a period of time, it wouldn't be something that would be unusual or extraordinary, because he would come and go as he pleased? MS MABECE I would be concerned as a boyfriend, if I don't see him for a very long period of time. MR VISSER Yes, but it wouldn't concern you if you didn't see him for a month or so? MS MABECE It would as a boyfriend, yes. MR VISSER Alright. During this time that you knew him did he live with you in your flat, or did he have his own address where he lived? MS MABECE He had his own apartment, but he was a regular visitor at my apartment. MR VISSER Alright. And would it be true to say that he in fact had more than one address where he lived, he moved around? Would you say that is true? MS MABECE I only know of one address, I wouldn't comment about other addresses he could have had. MR VISSER But are you saying that it's possible that he could have had more than one place where he lived, where he stayed? Or are you saying it is not so? MS MABECE I would like to comment on the only place that he showed me, I wouldn't like to talk about other places where he could have been living. MR VISSER You see, because his sister gave evidence to this Committee and she told the Committee, if I understood her correctly, that he didn't stay in one place, he moved around. And I want to add that we know from other evidence we've heard in the amnesty process, that that is what MK members did, they moved around for security reasons. Do you have any comment on what I've just put to you? MS MABECE Yes, if you are saying for security reasons it would make sense for them not to be staying in one place, then I can understand that, but he only took me to one place and I can only talk about that place. MR VISSER Alright. I understand what you're saying, you're saying you are just telling this Committee what you know of your own personal knowledge. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER At this place where he took you to, was he staying there with someone else? MS MABECE I think so. MR VISSER Have you ever heard the name Mphilo? M-p-h-i-l-o. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Did you meet him, that person? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Was he one of the persons who stayed with Mbulelo, at this address where you were told that Mbulelo lived? MS MABECE I don't know where Mphilo stayed, but he used to visit my place quite frequently. MR VISSER Do you know a person by the name of Fana, F-a-n-a? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Did he live at that address? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Do you know that Mr Ngono, Mbulelo Ngono had a sister called Tobeka? MS MABECE Yes, Sir. MR VISSER And did you ever meet her? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Did you see her frequently, or only on a few occasions? MS MABECE She would visit my apartment as I used to see her. MR VISSER Why would she visit your apartment? MS MABECE Mbulelo was my boyfriend, she was a sister to Mbulelo, so it would make sense for her to visit me, so that she can see the brother. MR VISSER Why wouldn't she go to the place where he lives? MS MABECE As a refugee, I don't think it would have been safe for her to do so, I don't know. MR VISSER Well but you visited him at the place where he lived. MS MABECE Yes, per invitation. So if she was never invited, I wouldn't like to comment on that. MR VISSER What is the position here, when Tobeka wanted to visit her brother, Mbulelo, are you saying she would come to your flat? MS MABECE What I know is that when she wanted to see the brother, she would find the brother in my place. I don't know whether she was invited to Mbulelo's place. I wouldn't like to comment on that. MR VISSER Alright. More-or-less how often did this happen that she came to visit at your place? MS MABECE Not so often, because she was a student, she could not be allowed to be leaving the boarding school as and when she wishes. MR VISSER Yes, yes. And apart from that she wasn't at school in Maseru itself, she was at school some distance away from Maseru, she told us. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER What is the name of that place where she was at school, do you remember? MS MABECE Oh, I can't remember. MR VISSER Alright. Now I'm looking at your statement from page 45 and where you speak of four men that came to your flat, in the second paragraph, and then over the page it appears that Mbulelo did not give his true name to these people - incidentally, what did you think, who were these people? MS MABECE I thought they were policemen. MR VISSER Yes, and Mbulelo would have thought the same, one would imagine. MS MABECE I would assume so. MR VISSER Did any of these persons show you or tell you that they were from the police? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Alright. But you assume that. Okay. Now would he have given a false name? MS MABECE I think, I don't know but I would think I had said we are all students and if the name of Lucky Mahlungozi were to be traced, he would be found that he was a student. MR VISSER Alright, but isn't there another explanation, and I want to ask your opinion about this. In 1987/1988, is it true or is it false to say that the Security Forces of Lesotho, were basically against refugees from South Africa, and they were looking for them and they deported them from the country? Would that be true of false? MS MABECE Come again please. MR VISSER I'm saying that there was a military government during 1987/'88, in Lesotho - do you remember that? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER And I'm asking you would it be true to say that that government was opposed to ANC using Lesotho as a springboard for attacks against South Africa? MS MABECE I don't know how they perceived the refugees and I wouldn't want to comment about what their actions would have been, but I knew that they were not happy with the refugees. MR VISSER Yes. Well that's really what I'm asking you. We've heard evidence here that the Security Forces of Lesotho put up roadblocks to see whether they could arrest ANC people in Lesotho. Would that be something that you knew about? MS MABECE It was really - it would be a reasonable assumption, because we could not say when you see the people in Lesotho, that they were South African Security people, one would have thought that they are Basothos, because they speak Sesotho language. So I wouldn't say I would have known if I was involved in a roadblock, that I was dealing with the Security Police. MR VISSER Alright. The only question that I was really after was, were you aware that roadblocks were put up in Lesotho during 1987/'88, in order to find ANC supporters in Lesotho? Was that something that was known to you? MS MABECE No, I didn't know that. MR VISSER Okay. Isn't it logical to think that the reason why Mbulelo gave a false name, was because he was afraid that if he gave his correct name, the Lesotho police might know of him to be an MK member and that they might arrest and deport him? MS MABECE Probably. MR VISSER Anyway, but you say that you were also asked for your student card and you lied to them, you said you've misplaced it. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER And the reason which you gave for doing that is because Mbulelo was not a student, is that what you said? MS MABECE I knew he wasn't a student. MR VISSER Yes, but how is that a reason why you didn't give your student card to the police? MS MABECE Because I assumed that if I were to produce my student card, they would ask for his and he wouldn't have. MR VISSER No, but you told us that they did ask for his and he said it was at his home, the place where he stayed. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER So now I ask you again, why did you tell them, the police, that you've misplaced your student card and that you couldn't find it? MS MABECE For the same reason that I didn't want them to ask for Mbulelo's student card. MR VISSER But they did ask for his card. MR LAX It was afterwards she said, Mr Visser, with respect, and I don't see the inconsistency at all. It was a later stage they asked for his card, according to her evidence. MS MABECE They were asking for student cards individually and they started with me. MR VISSER And why did you think that whatever you said about your card would stop them from asking for Mbulelo's student card? MS MABECE They had asked what we were doing in Lesotho and I said we were students, so if we are students we should be able to produce student cards. MR VISSER Precisely. MS MABECE And if they had wanted a student card and I said I didn't have, then I didn't want that to be an issue. MR VISSER Alright, well frankly I don't understand that, but it doesn't matter. Now these four gentlemen, I take it they were all male persons? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER That came to your flat. I want to ask you what roles they fulfilled the day there, and I'm going to do it by telling you what the two applicants, Mr Jantjie and Mr Thulo, told this Committee. Now Mr Jantjie and Mr Thulo are two applicants applying for amnesty for the abduction of Mbulelo Ngono from Lesotho and taking him out of Lesotho to Ladybrand. You know that, that is the amnesty application in regard to Mbulelo. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER They say that they were from the South African Security Branch Police and they went to Roma Police Station where they asked for assistance and they were given assistance by two Lesotho police, who went with them to your address which they had beforehand. Now you wouldn't know about that I take it? MS MABECE No, I wouldn't. MR VISSER Alright. They then told the Committee that in your flat they hung back, as it were, they didn't do anything, they let the Lesotho police do the talking. Would that be correct, that two of them stayed in the background? MS MABECE As I have said I don't remember their names now, but I know that of the four policemen, there were two who were active in questioning, so I don't know whether they are part of the Lesotho or Security Police. MR VISSER No, one can't blame you for that, but would it be true to say that two of them were active and two of them were passive? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Now both Jantjie and Thulo could not remember a second lady being present, you say your sister was present there. And they couldn't remember that. In fact, Jantjie said that he's sure that there was only one female present there. What is your comment on that? Is it possible that you could be making a mistake, or are they making a mistake? MS MABECE Suffering from amnesia. MR VISSER Who, you? MS MABECE Them. MR VISSER Them. Suffering from amnesia. Alright. When they had bound Mbulelo's wrists with his belt, they then went away, if I understand your evidence correctly, to go to his home. MS MABECE They said they were going to Mbulelo's place. I presume they had gone there, I don't know. MR MAPOMA Yes, yes. And you and your sister, according to your evidence, stayed behind. MR LAX Sorry, it's not her sister. MR VISSER Well whose sister is it then? Whose sister was it? MS MABECE It's my sister. MR LAX Was it your sister. I'm sorry, I beg your pardon. MR VISSER And you and your sister stayed behind? MS MABECE Yes, they had instructed us to remain behind until they come back. MR VISSER Yes, but you and your sister didn't follow those instructions, did you, because you sent your sister to go and tell Joe Mapumolo, a friend of Mbulelo, what has transpired. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Okay. So she wasn't there when they came back? MS MABECE No, she wasn't. MR VISSER Was there any talk or discussion about the fact that she didn't follow instructions? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Nothing. Now before they went away and before they came back, when you then got into the kombi, according to you, and went to the police station, these two active members, they searched the flat, behind the wardrobe for a door, is that correct? MS MABECE That was before they took Mbulelo away. MR VISSER That's what I'm saying. And they searched also under the bed. MS MABECE Yes, they lifted the mattress. MR VISSER And they found a bag. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER And don't you have any further evidence as to this bag, apart from the fact that they asked whose bag it was and Mbulelo said it was his? There's nothing else you can tell us about this bag? MS MABECE They opened it and a grenade was slightly visible. MR VISSER You see, I'm just interested to know why you didn't tell us about that in your evidence-in-chief. MS MABECE Well I was summarising this since I knew that you had read the statement. MR VISSER Alright. Was it one or two handgrenades, or don't you know how many there were? MS MABECE I don't know, but I saw one which was slightly visible. MR VISSER Alright. And did the police take that bag or the handgrenade with them, did they take control of it? MS MABECE Yes, they did. MR VISSER Alright. This person Joe Mapumolo, now where does he fit in, who is he? MS MABECE He was Mbulelo's friend and he was also my friend, we were studying together. MR VISSER Was he living at the same address where Mbulelo lived? MS MABECE No, he was staying on campus. MR VISSER And was he also a refugee? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Was he also a member of MK? MS MABECE I presume so. MR VISSER Alright. Now you say that you got the names of the people who came to your flat in the '90s, did I hear you correct? Were you referring to the people who interrogated you at the Roma Police Station? MS MABECE Perhaps I should clarify something there. What had actually happened was that some time in September, I was ...(intervention) MR VISSER Of what year? MS MABECE September 1987. ... I was approached by one of Mbulelo's friends. He gave four names and he said I should go to a police station, to the police stations in Maseru, to find out whether that person who had four names has not been arrested, is not arrested - is not kept in any of those police stations, and ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, you're not being very clear unfortunately, could you just repeat it and be a little bit more clear about it. It's not clear who you were looking for and what the four names had to do with it. MS MABECE I had indicated in my statement that I used to give assistance where required, so as usual they said to me "There's a person whom we think has been arrested, can you please go to the police stations in Maseru, we are going to give you four names. These four names belong to this specific person". Then that is when I went to Lesotho. I went to the police stations and it was during that process that I got to know some of the policemen that may have been involved - that were involved in this abduction. MR LAX Sorry, you said September 1987. MS MABECE Yes. MR LAX This incident happened in March 1988. That's a couple of months, six months before this incident happened. So how could you find out the names of somebody involved in an incident that only happened six months later? MS MABECE What had actually happened was that while I was making these investigations, I saw some policemen and it was an ongoing process, because I knew that I wasn't safe, there were people who were coming to my flat, so I was on the lookout for people who were suspicious. And while I was going home I saw one of the policemen who had been in the abduction ....(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, no, but the question ...(intervention) MR LAX You're missing the point of what I'm saying. CHAIRPERSON The question is that you're speaking of September '87, and according to your evidence, when Mbulelo was abducted was 1988, in March. MS MABECE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So if you say you were given four names by some of Mbulelo's friends, in September 1987, then how could you recognise people who were supposed to have come to you six months down the line? MR LAX What in essence we're asking you - just listen carefully, in essence we're saying to you, are you not making a mistake about September 1987, that in fact you're referring to September 1988? MS MABECE No, I'm not. MR LAX Okay, then explain it to us if you would. MS MABECE Perhaps let me clarify this thing a bit further. I was given four names. I didn't know who those names were, because I knew Mbulelo as Ntsizwa and of the four names that I was given I could not have known that it was him that they were looking for, then I presumed that he must have been one of their friends who had gone missing and they wanted me to help. And while I was doing those investigations I saw some of the people who had been keeping track on my movements. That process never ended in September, it went on and on until I found the policemen much later, in 1998, while I was going out of Lesotho, and I recognised that guy as being the guy that had been in my flat when Mbulelo was taken from my flat, around March/April. CHAIRPERSON We still don't follow. MR LAX You see, can I explain the problem. You're telling us in essence, that you think the person that you were asking about was Mbulelo, but you had other names that he would have used. MS MABECE No, what I was saying was that of the people, I think the person that I identified much later - I saw someone at the border gate and that person was the person that had abducted Mbulelo from my apartment and I saw that person after he had been abducted, because I never stopped all my investigations from the time that I was approached, because I knew it was an ongoing process. When those people were looking for me, I had to know exactly who was after me. MR LAX Okay. Do I understand this correctly then, in September 1987, certain people - you were asked by certain people to look for other people who they assumed might have been arrested. MS MABECE Yes. MR LAX At that stage Mbulelo clearly wasn't one of those four names. MS MABECE I wouldn't know, but I knew Mbulelo as Ntsizwa, but the four names that I was given ...(intervention) MR LAX Can I ask you this question, was Mbulelo missing at that stage? MS MABECE Yes, he was. MR LAX But if he - when did he go missing? MS MABECE He was away for a longer period around September and he came back around February. MR LAX Okay. Now it all falls into place. MS MABECE So from the time that I was approached, I never stopped looking for clues. MR LAX Correct. Well there's only one other question that then follows from what you've just told us and that is, did you not recognise that policeman when they came to your house? MS MABECE No, I didn't recognise the policeman before he could come to the house. I saw him after he had been to my house, because I never stopped doing what they had instructed me to do. MR LAX Okay, so you just carried on asking at various places? MS MABECE I was also on the lookout, not necessarily going to the police stations as I was instructed. MR LAX Sorry Mr Visser, we've interrupted you for quite a period of time. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. I want to start from scratch because I don't understand it. A friend of Mbulelo came to you in September 1987 and he gave you four names and he asked you whether you would be prepared to go to police stations to go and ascertain whether there was a person held by the Lesotho police, that was known by any of those names. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Did you think, or were you told that you were going to look for one person, or for four persons? MS MABECE For one person with four names. MR VISSER One person with four names. You knew Mbulelo Ngono by that name, is that correct? MS MABECE No, I knew him as Ntsizwa, and of the names, of the four names that I was given, that name was not there. MR VISSER How do you spell that? MS MABECE S-t-s-i-z-w-a. MR LAX Sorry, it's N-t-s-i-z-w-a. MR VISSER N-t? MR LAX N for Nellie, T for Thomas, S for Susan, i-z-w-a. MR VISSER Yes, okay. Ntsizwa. MS MABECE Ntsizwa, yes. MR VISSER That name wasn't one of the four? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER So - and you knew of no other name that Mbulelo Ngono went by, was known by? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Had you heard of KK? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER So can you perhaps remember what the four names were? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER You can't. Not even one of them? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Did you think in your own mind, that you were looking for Mbulelo? MS MABECE There was a slight possibility, but they were also - there was also another person I used to know, who had gone missing, so I didn't know whether it was him or Mbulelo. MR VISSER This person, this friend who came to you, this friend of Mbulelo, what is his name? MS MABECE I never knew their names. MR VISSER Why didn't you ask him: "Is this Mbulelo we're looking for"? MS MABECE I don't normally pry into matters which are not my concern. MR VISSER Well, you told us that you were concerned about him when he went away. MS MABECE No, you said to me would I be concerned if he were to be away for a longer period and I said, as a boyfriend, I would. MR VISSER Yes. MS MABECE But if he had been gone for a week, it wouldn't be a cause for alarm. MR VISSER Right. You say if he had been gone for a week, it would not cause you any alarm. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Right. By the time that this friend of Mbulelo came to you and gave you the four names, you told the Committee just now that Mbulelo had already gone away at the time. MS MABECE Mbulelo was away when those people approached me. MR VISSER Okay. For how long? How long had he been away when you were approached with the four names? MS MABECE I can't remember, but what I can emphasise is that when I was given those names, I didn't think it was him specifically that they wanted me to assist them with. MR VISSER Why not? MS MABECE Because I was told one other guy who was staying in Maseru had also gone missing, so I thought it could be him, it could be anybody else, because I was not only assisting Mbulelo, I was assisting all of them. MR VISSER Yes, so much the more reason why I asked you the question, why didn't you just ask them: "Are we looking for Ntsizwa or not"? I don't understand why you didn't just ask this simple question. MS MABECE No, I didn't think it was appropriate then. MR VISSER Alright, well I must give you the opportunity, why wasn't it appropriate? MS MABECE I didn't ask them why they would - how can I put it - I understood that they were highly secretive and I did not want to pry and if I could get the names - if I could not get the person they were looking for, I would tell them, then I would question why they could not have told me who I was looking for precisely. MR VISSER Alright. So if you'd gone to the Roma Police Station and the names that you'd got were A, B, C and D, and at the Roma Police Station there was a record that they had a C there, what would you have done? MS MABECE I would have told that person that there is someone of this - C is detained or arrested in the Roma Police Station. MR VISSER And that would have been the end of your instructions? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Were you actually working for MK in Lesotho, assisting them when they needed help? MS MABECE I never really regarded them as MK, I saw them as my brothers, so when they wanted help from me I would provide help where I can. MR VISSER But what they were doing was in the interests of END OF SIDE A OF TAPE START OF SIDE B OF TAPE MS MABECE ... members, so I didn't know exactly what they were doing. MR VISSER Yes, no, no, we've gone past that. I wasn't referring to that. Now did you at any stage actively go to police stations to look whether Mbulelo Ngono was detained by the Lesotho police? MS MABECE I could not have gone to police stations to look for Mbulelo Ngono, I was looking with the person with those four names. So I didn't know who those names belonged to. MR VISSER Are you then saying that this instruction for you to go and look for a person at police stations, happened only once? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Was your sister involved in rendering assistance to Mbulelo and his friends? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Do you know whether she, at any stage, would have gone to make enquiries about people who might be in the custody of the Lesotho police, who were MK members? MS MABECE I know she wouldn't have done that. MR VISSER She wouldn't have done that. You see, I'm just a bit puzzled about that evidence, or the evidence given by Tobeka Ngono, because she told this Committee that she went - well, let me cut it short, she gave the impression that someone, and I thought she said it was either you or your sister, I'm just looking for the passage, went to the police stations to look for Mbulelo, while she went to the United Nations Commission for Refugees, I think she called it. Chairperson, I'm just trying to find it. 786 - I'm going to read to you what she testified and then you can have the opportunity of making any comment you wish. Just to come back to an earlier question I asked you about where she was at school, she says it was at Masithe. Is there such a place, Masithe? It's spelt here, M-a-s-i-t-h-e. MS MABECE Ja, probably. I can't remember the name. MR VISSER Maybe, maybe not, alright. That's at page 785, Chairperson - oh, my attorney now gives me another page, 763, perhaps we should go there first because it's earlier in chronological order. 763, in her evidence-in-chief, led by Mr Malindi, she had told the Committee that because she had heard that Mbulelo had been arrested, she says certain things happened and the fourth line says "MR MALINDI: As a result of the information that Mbulelo had been arrested, were any steps taken by the family, steps taken to find him, to trace him? MS NGONO: I went to the offices of the United Nations." the question is asked: "MR MALINDI: With what purpose?" MS NGONO: I wanted them to assist me in looking for Mbulelo." and she says that the family never heard anything after that. Then she stated, perhaps at a later stage, that she was told to go to the United Nations offices in Maseru, and that either you or your sister - and we're just trying to find that place, were told to go to the police stations to make enquiries. Now I will find that, but if that is the evidence that she gave - oh, 787, Chairperson, I do apologise, it's quite a lengthy record, so you must forgive me. CHAIRPERSON Ja, certainly Mr Visser. MR VISSER You see, I'm cross-examining her and I say - well perhaps I should start at 786 at the bottom "MR VISSER: Now I'm going to ask you this, why did you go to them in March 1988? What made you go to them in March 1988?" I'm referring here to when she went to the offices of the United Nations, and that appears from about four lines further up. Then she says: "It is because I knew by then that he was arrested, March 1988." Incidentally, did you tell her that? That Ngono was arrested in your flat in March 1988? MS MABECE No, I didn't, she must have been told by Joe Mapumolo and I must have confirmed it at a later stage. MR VISSER Right. At 787 "MR VISSER: Who told you that? - I'm sorry, is that because the sister told you that he was arrested? Is that a reason? The sister of Mabece told you that he was arrested. MS NGONO: Yes, she told me that he was arrested." So she says you told her and I'll tell you ...(intervention) MR LAX No, no, she says that her sister told her. MR VISSER Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, your sister told her. So you wouldn't know about that. Thank you, I stand corrected. Now it goes on: "MR VISSER: And that's why you went to the United Nations offices. Am I understanding your evidence correctly? MS NGONO: Yes. MR VISSER: Why didn't you go to the police? MS NGONO: It is because Lindelwa (that is you) went to the police and she asked for a record of the people that were arrested on that date and Mbulelo's name was not on that record. MR VISSER: Now did Lindelwa tell you that? How do you know that? MS NGONO: There were other cadres that were around in Lesotho, and they would tell me. MR VISSER: So you can't remember who told you that, is that what you're saying? MS NGONO: His name is Mamawa then, but I do not know his real name." So something else told her that you had gone to the police station to ask for a record of detainees, to see whether Mbulelo's name was on that list. Is that what happened? MS MABECE I wouldn't like to comment on what she said, I would like to comment on what I've stated in my statement. MR VISSER Are you then saying that what she is saying is not your recollection of the situation, the way you remember it, is correct. MS MABECE She could have been told by those cadres that that is what I was doing. I wouldn't like to comment on that. MR VISSER Yes, fine. But the fact is, your evidence is that is not what you were doing. Am I correct in assuming that? MS MABECE I did that, but I didn't know then why I was doing it, because I told ...(intervention) MR VISSER No, I'm sorry ...(intervention) MR LAX Can I just clarify something here, because you may be talking at cross-purposes. When you were given those names, that was in September, and you carried on asking about those four names, however, at a later stage, in March, you saw Mbulelo being arrested in your company. MS MABECE Yes. MR LAX At that stage, did you make further enquiries, once he didn't surface again? Because that question has never been put to you so far. Because this is all about March, it's not about September, the sections that have been read to from the record are about what happened in March and after March. MS MABECE Yes, I did my own enquiries, because I wanted to identify who those people could have been, because the way he was taken from my apartment, he was not - the people never introduced themselves as policemen, so I presumed it was an abduction. So I had to be on the lookout, and while I was doing that, hence I said I saw this other person at the border gate and I identified him as the one who had taken Mbulelo from my apartment. MR LAX As one of those people? MS MABECE Yes. MR LAX Now you haven't answered my question, which was, did you make enquiries ...(intervention) MS MABECE Yes, I did. MR LAX ... with the police. MS MABECE No, not with the police. MR LAX You didn't go back to police stations after Mbulelo went missing now, after he had been abducted, and start trying to say, is he in Roma, is he in whatever other police stations there may be around Maseru or other areas? MS MABECE I did my own investigations, ...(indistinct) the names that I was given and I knew that it could have been the Lesotho police ...(intervention) MR LAX No, no, you're confusing the issue here, with respect, you only had one name for Mbulelo at that time. MS MABECE Yes. MR LAX So did you take that name and go and try and see if you could find that name at police stations where he might be detained? Because you assumed, as you've told us, that the people who abducted him were policemen. MS MABECE Yes. You see, my - what I wrote is a summary of what had transpired ...(intervention) MR LAX No, don't worry about what you wrote, we're not interested in what you wrote. MS MABECE Oh, okay. MR LAX I'm just trying to understand what you did in March and after the middle March, roughly when we understand this may have happened, or when he was arrested in Lesotho. MS MABECE Okay, after Mbulelo had been abducted I didn't know, I mean I never got any specific instructions that go and look for Mbulelo, but I felt it was important that I know what had actually happened, and while I was at the police station being interrogated, I saw one of the security guards who was posted at the university entrance and he was at the police station. But when we were going in and out of the university, we didn't know that that person was a policeman. So I had to - I knew that there was a link in Mbulelo being abducted and that the policemen were involved. ...(indistinct) never went there. I told those people that kept coming to my apartment, that I have seen one of the security guards who is normally posted at the university gate, at the Roma Police Station. I gave them that information. And subsequent to that there were people coming to my apartment and I was on the lookout, because I knew that I was the only person who must have seen - I was the only person who was with Mbulelo the day he was abducted. And it never ended there, I kept looking out for the other policemen, because I then knew that they were policemen because they took us to the police station. So that is when I identified this other policeman at the border gate, as being the one who had been to my apartment, and I had to volunteer that information to the people. Not that I was given a list of names to go and check at the police stations. CHAIRPERSON No, no, you may just be missing or hearing past the questions asked by Mr Visser. He's at the stage when you say Mbulelo was abducted and you were detained for three days or so, and then when you came out, he was reading to you that what Tobeka was saying, that you were to look at the police stations and she had to go to the United Nations to seek assistance. Do you follow that? MS MABECE Okay. CHAIRPERSON That's where he is. MS MABECE Oh, alright. CHAIRPERSON You see, because one point that has at least been clarified, that it wasn't you who told Tobeka what to do, because it is this Mamawa who did that. So we are just at that stage, so don't jump the gun. Alright? MS MABECE Alright. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. And certainly, what Mr Lax has put is the crux of the matter and I intend to get to that as soon as I can. Let's just try and pick up the loose ends, Mr Mabece. On your evidence, as the Chairman has just summarised, Mbulelo was abducted from your flat in March 1988. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER When you were asked about the identity of the Lesotho policeman who came to your flat, you referred to September 1987, and forget about what your explanation was, the fact is you referred to September 1987, and I understood you to say that at that time, Mbulelo was not present in Lesotho, in September 1987. And you were given four names by a friend of Mbulelo and you were asked to go and make enquiries whether any such name is a person detained by the Lesotho police. Have I got that right? MS MABECE There's a misunderstanding there, perhaps I'm not clarifying myself. What I'm saying is, when I was given those four names I didn't know who those four names belonged to ... MR VISSER You've told us that. MS MABECE ... but I had not seen Mbulelo, so it could have been him, it could have been anybody else. MR VISSER No, you made that absolutely clear, you made that absolutely clear. I understood you. Now you see, let's get to March of 1988. I'm asking you, did you again go in March or April or May, March or after March 1988, to make enquiries at the police stations in Lesotho, as to whether Mbulelo was detained by the Lesotho police? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Now that's the point you see, because she may be wrong, but the way I understood her evidence to be, is that Ms Ngono, the sister of Mbulelo, testified that after she heard that Mbulelo was abducted from your apartment, there was a decision that you would go and make enquiries at police stations as to whether he was a detainee and she was told to go to the offices of the United Nations. Now what do you say about that evidence? CHAIRPERSON I don't think it is quite clear, because the record says "they would send her" MR VISSER Lindelwa, yes. CHAIRPERSON Lindelwa to the police station. I think the ...(indistinct) would say was she ever sent? Because they're telling now Tobeka, they're not speaking to her. MR VISSER Yes, I'm quite happy with phrasing the question in that way. Can I read to you exactly what she said. 787 at the bottom "MR VISSER: On the strength of what he told you (and this is Mamawa) you decided not to go to the police, the Lesotho police, but to the United Nations. Is that what your evidence is? MS NGONO: They said (don't ask me who the they is) that they would send Lindelwa to go and look for him at a police station in Lesotho and I must go to the United Nations. MR VISSER: So was it then because of that agreement that you went to the United Nations offices? Is that the reason why you went there? MS NGONO: They said it would only be a mother that was able to go to the police and look for her child, so I must not go there, because the police were cruel. They were able to kill the members of the family. So they did not want me to go to the police." If you had to make a comment, what would you say about this evidence? MS MABECE In my opinion, perhaps the person who told Tobeka that, must have been referring to my previous instruction, that I go to police stations, because that was what I was told in September. Perhaps that person never got to me to tell me that. MR VISSER Alright, fair enough, fair enough. You see, now coming back to the date, we know from your recollection, that you went to make enquiries at police stations or a police station in Lesotho in September 1987, regarding four names which might or might not have referred to Mbulelo. MS MABECE Yes. And if I may add, while I was at the police station I overheard people saying someone should go to the traffic department, because I was checking the shifts of those people, because I could not ask the very same people different names, then I followed that policeman, he went to a traffic department and I sat there. One of the guys was staying in Maseru, whom I had been told had left the place where he used to stay and nobody knew where he was. I actually found him at the traffic cop department. It is then that I presumed that the person that I was made to look for, was that person. So it never occurred to me then it was Mbulelo. MR VISSER Right, I ...(intervention) MS MABECE So the person who may have told Tobeka that I had been instructed to go to the police station, may been advised that I had done that with this other guy, but when I was doing that I didn't know who I was looking for. MR SIBANYONI Maybe let me ask this question. September 1987, was Mbulelo already your boyfriend? MS MABECE Yes. MR SIBANYONI And you never knew him by the name of Mbulelo? MS MABECE No. MR SIBANYONI Okay. Even if you would find him there, you wouldn't think that this is the person you are requested to look for? MS MABECE Well I would be shocked to learn that he had been arrested, because he had not been there, so I didn't know where he was and since they were coming and going, then it would be possible that he could have been arrested or that he could have gone to do whatever he was doing. I wouldn't know. MR SIBANYONI Yes. In other words you would say: "This person I'm looking for, you have requested me to look for, is not there, but in actual fact while I was looking for that person I discovered that my boyfriend, Ntsizwa, was arrested"? MS MABECE I would have told them what I found, because I didn't know what I was looking for. I was looking for that person with those four names. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. MR VISSER But just to take that one step further, Ms Mabece, when you went to the police stations with the four names, if the police told you: "No, we don't have any of those four names as detainees, but we've got one person here, his name is Mbulelo Ngono", that would have meant nothing to you? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER You have gone away and you wouldn't have realised it was your boyfriend they're talking about? Is that what you're saying? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Now you see, I just want to come back. Am I then correct to say on your evidence, and please, if I'm wrong please tell me so, that in September 1987 you went with four names to police stations to make enquiries. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER After Mbulelo was abducted from your apartment as you say, in March 1988, you never went to police stations to make enquiries about him specifically? MS MABECE No, I didn't go to police stations because I knew that I wasn't safe, that's why I was making my own investigations. And secondly, I was never given a specific instruction to do so, because I didn't know what information those people had, nobody came back to me about his disappearance. MR VISSER Yes, that's how I understood your evidence. What investigations did you undertake on your own? MS MABECE Since I recognised the security guard as a policeman, I knew that there was something more than that, because he wouldn't have disguised himself as a security guard, so I was on the lookout for the people that had been to my place, perhaps whether I cannot see them at the university entrance, or at the border gate. So that was what I was actually doing. MR VISSER Mbulelo was not a student. MS MABECE No, he wasn't, but he had friends at the university so he used to go in and out and as a student I used to go in and out, because I was staying outside campus. MR VISSER Alright. Now what could the security guard who was actually a policemen, why was that sinister to you? MS MABECE It was sinister because my understanding of a security guard at a university gate is to monitor the movements of students or to protect the university, he would not be involved in police activities as I saw him in Roma Police Station. That was my understanding. MR VISSER Yes, I'm afraid I don't follow that but perhaps somebody does. Now I understand also that you told the Committee that you were not open about looking for Mbulelo, because you felt unsafe. You just repeated it a moment ago, is that correct? MS MABECE Yes, I wouldn't go to police stations. MR VISSER Yes. What did you think might happen to you? MS MABECE I could have been abducted like him, I could have been killed and I think there were such attempts. MR VISSER Why would they be after you if you were not a member of MK, if you were not an active activist? MS MABECE They found Mbulelo in my apartment and they found a purse with a grenade, so perhaps they could have thought I'm also one of them, so they could abduct me as the did. MR VISSER Yes, but they had the opportunity, they had you for three days and they interrogated you and then they let you go. MS MABECE It was not as easy for them not to release me as it would have been the case with Mbulelo, because Mbulelo was not a registered student. As soon as the SRC got to know that I was detained, I had to be charged or released because I was a SRC member. MR VISSER Well, alright. But you see - yes, I don't think I should speculate too far afield, Chairperson. Now just tell us, you said at page 48 that in the three days that you were detained, the second paragraph: "The interrogation was intensive. It was alleged that I concealed a lot of information (info). The policemen took turns to ask me questions. Some of them could not speak English, (etcetera, etcetera). One of them stated in Sesotho that they should get as much info as they possibly can, as I was an SRC member." Now you know, I don't understand any of that, will you explain to me that I can understand what you're talking about here. First of all, what was the interrogation about? MS MABECE They were asking me about Mbulelo's activities, which I did not know. MR VISSER Alright, now just stop there for a moment, if you may. Has that got anything to do with the fact that you were a member of the SRC? MS MABECE Yes, because if they had detained they could not detain me indefinitely. MR VISSER No, no, you just told the Committee that the interrogation was about asking you about Mbulelo's activities, is that right? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Has that got anything to do with, those activities, with you being a member of the SRC? MS MABECE There is a connection if they thought that I was also a participant in Mbulelo's activities, but since I was also detained, they could not hold me there indefinitely. As an SRC member they had to know that the information would spread around and a lot of people would know of that abduction which was unlawful. MR VISSER Yes. Well - are you saying the arrest was unlawful? - in your flat. MS MABECE I mean if people come and take Mbulelo as they did, they never introduced themselves as policemen, they never said they're security people, but the manner in which they took him, there was something very sinister about it. MR VISSER Yes, alright. But he was in possession of a handgrenade. MS MABECE Well if they wanted handgrenades they should have introduced themselves as Security Police or police. MR VISSER Alright. Now you also said that you had a distinct impression, at page 48 at the bottom, that some of the people who were not policemen - well the "who" as been scratched out "Some of the people were not policemen but simply came to look at me." Now I know this isn't entirely relevant to this application, but I just want to ask you very briefly, what did you mean by that? MS MABECE I was suspicious as to the presence of that security guard. MR VISSER So it's that person you're referring to? MS MABECE The security guard. So I presumed that if he could be there, some of the people who were there may not be policemen as he was. MR VISSER Okay. Alright, so that was your impression. You were asked about the names and the whereabouts of some of Mbulelo's friends, is that correct? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Did you give them that information? MS MABECE Yes, I gave them the names of some people. MR VISSER But those names would have been names that you thought out for them, not names that you were introduced to them by, is that correct? MS MABECE Those are the names that I was introduced to them by. MR VISSER You see because earlier today I asked you the same question and I said to you "Did you know any of Mbulelo's friends?" and you said: "Yes." and I asked you their names and you said well they never introduced themselves to you by their names, you made up names for them. MS MABECE I said I knew some, not all of them. MR VISSER Okay, alright. And then you said you did explain to them that you may have known those people as Mbulelo's colleagues, but never knew their names. So you've said that there as well. MS MABECE Can I elaborate on that? MR VISSER Yes. MS MABECE The names that - the two people that I was sure of their names, were students and they were also Mbulelo's friends. They were registered students. The other people were not introduced to me formally, hence I gave them names, because I was never introduced to them formally. MR VISSER And the two students you were referring to, were those these two people, Wele and Siseko Nombego, or whatever? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER What did you write there at page 49? Siseko CHAIRPERSON Siseko Nombego. MS MABECE Lucky Mahlungozi. I knew them, they were registered students. MR VISSER Well I didn't see that name here as one that you gave the police. CHAIRPERSON No, no, just at the beginning when ...(indistinct) introduced, I think it's page 46, that Mbulelo actually ...(indistinct) that he was Lucky Mahlungozi. MR VISSER Oh, I see, yes, yes. You told us about him, but I was referring to page 49 where you stated in your statement that you explained to the Lesotho police that you knew some of the people and there were only two names that you mentioned there and not Lucky. But was Lucky also a name that you mentioned to them, as somebody you knew? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Okay. And when you said in the second paragraph at page 49, I take it there must be - it says "I may not have provided the information they wanted, because I knew virtually nothing of Mbulelo or his colleagues' activities." Now that was the truth, you didn't know anything about their activities? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Thank you. Were you ever informed of any operation in which Mbulelo Ngono was involved in, in South Africa, or one of the so-called home States, homelands? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER If there was evidence to say that he was involved in a shooting incident in the Transkei, would you know anything about that? MS MABECE I think that is one of the questions that was posed by one of the guys when - to Mbulelo, in my place. MR VISSER When what? MS MABECE The day that Mbulelo was abducted from my apartment, there was something to that effect. MR VISSER Yes. And on that day, you already told us that Mbulelo had no scar on his face. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER And it would be a logical conclusion that he must have sustained the wound that caused the scar, after he was taken away by the police? After he was abducted. MS MABECE Yes, the last time I saw him he never had a scar, so I don't know he could have sustained those scars, but I would presume ... MR VISSER You see, coming to the question that Commissioner Lax has posed to you, your reference to September 1987, when enquiries were made, I'm going to argue and I want to give you an opportunity to react thereto, that Ms Ngono could be right and you could be wrong. That that was the time that you were told to go to police stations to look for Ngono, and that both of you are wrong, that it wasn't in March 1988, but it was in fact in September 1987. Based on your recollection, that that is when you went with the four names to the police stations. Do you have any comment about that? MS MABECE As I had said, after I found that other guy at the traffic department, I presumed those four names belonged to him. It never occurred to me then that Mbulelo was also being sought after. MR VISSER Perhaps I should just ask you to clarify that for me. This whole version of going to the traffic department, are you saying that somebody was detained at the traffic department? MS MABECE What that guy told me was that he was being deported to Lusaka. MR VISSER Which guy told you that? MS MABECE The guy that I found at the traffic department. MR VISSER I see. Was he ...(intervention) MS MABECE He's one of Mbulelo's colleagues. MR VISSER And was he a traffic policeman? MS MABECE No, he was not, he was Mbulelo's ...(intervention) MR LAX He was one of the names on the list, as I understood it. MR VISSER Well no ... CHAIRPERSON No, no, she assumed. MR LAX Oh, assumed. MS MABECE I assumed that those four names belonged to him, because I found him in a traffic department. MR VISSER What was he doing in the traffic department? MS MABECE I don't know. MR VISSER Was he locked up there? Was he walking around there? What? MS MABECE He told me that he'd been taken to the traffic department, from the traffic department he was going to deported to Zambia. MR VISSER Oh, I'm sorry, now I understand. So he was, as it turned out, in fact a person who corresponded with one of those names, or with all four of them and he told you that he was being deported to Lusaka? CHAIRPERSON No, no, he did not correspond, she assumed that this person might be one of the four names given. Would I understand you correctly? MS MABECE Yes, because I never knew his name. He had a beard. I used to ...(indistinct) uBoetie, so when I saw him there I presumed those four names belonged to him. MR VISSER And you spoke to him? MS MABECE Yes, I did. MR VISSER Did he tell you what his name was? MS MABECE No, he didn't. MR VISSER Did you ask him? MS MABECE I used to address him as Bra and he used to respond. MR VISSER Ms Mbeki, didn't you ask him: "What is your name?"? MS MABECE No, I didn't. CHAIRPERSON I don't think Zanela would like that if you refer to her as Ms Mbeki. MR VISSER You must forgive me, you must forgive me, Ms Mabece. You've got four names. You now identify a person that may well be the person who is referred to with one of those four names. Am I understanding you correctly? MS MABECE He could be having any of those four names, but I never knew him as - he was not referred to by any of those names that I had ...(indistinct) another name. MR VISSER But the question I have for you is, here is a likely candidate, to put it no higher, that could belong to one of those four names. Am I correct, in your opinion, and he was the man that's now being deported to Lusaka. MS MABECE I never thought so, but I had to give the report that while I was looking for these four people, I found this person. That's what I did. MR VISSER I thought I heard you say distinctly that you thought it was this person that the names that you had referred to. MS MABECE It's an assumption, because if these people had many names and I knew that person as Bra, and I'm told to look for a person with four names and of those four names he's not there, it could be somebody else. It could be him, I wouldn't know. MR VISSER Yes, that's the point I'm making to you, Ms Mabece, why didn't you just ask him: "Are you known by these names? I'm looking for a person". And he wouldn't have been nasty to you or afraid of you, I mean he's a man who's obviously being deported to Lusaka for a good reason, you were working with those kinds of people. Why didn't you ask him: "I'm looking for a person with any of these names, do you know that person? Is it you?" Why didn't you do that? MS MABECE No, I didn't think I could do that, because I knew that I had to report to those people and say: "This is the person I found", then they would make a follow-up themselves. MR VISSER And wouldn't they then ask you: "Who was he?"? MS MABECE They knew him as Bra, because when they came to my apartment and I would tell them that so and so came and they knew who I was referring to. MR VISSER Alright. So this is the report you took back to the people who gave you the instruction to make enquiries? MS MABECE Yes, I said: "I have been to the police stations, I've not found any of these people, but in the traffic department I saw this person". MR VISSER Yes. So you would not have gone to the police stations out of your own accord, to look for somebody who might be detained by the police? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER You would wait for instructions. MS MABECE I'd wait for instructions. MR VISSER Why wouldn't you go out of your own accord and go and look for Mbulelo at the police stations? You said you were afraid, but ...(intervention) MS MABECE I didn't think it was safe. MR VISSER But you were doing exactly the very same exercise with the four names, didn't you think it was unsafe then? MS MABECE At that time I didn't think it was, because I was a registered student, I would simply check from the records whether they had those - those people were arrested, and if I'm given that information I would give feedback, but after Mbulelo had been abducted in the manner he was, I knew that I wasn't safe. MR VISSER Well you know, you were still a registered student, if he was abducted in March 1988. MS MABECE But then I would not have gone out of my way to go to police stations to make investigations. MR VISSER Well I want to put it to you, Mr Mabece, that I find it very hard to understand that. He's your boyfriend, he was abducted in your presence, you know that he was taken tot he Roma Police Station, you know that he was then allowed to go away there and he wasn't taken into the police station with you. Why didn't you do the simple exercise of going to the Roma Police Station and speaking to the Commanding Officer there and say to him: "I'm just here to make enquiries, my boyfriend was arrested with me in March 1988, please Sir, what happened to him, I haven't seen him for a week". I find it hard to understand why you wouldn't have done that. MS MABECE Ja, in a normal situation you'll find that hard to believe, but that was a very abnormal situation, and I had indicated that I was never involved in their activities, so I wouldn't to ...(indistinct) knowing that there was a possibility of me being abducted. MR VISSER But you see, that's the point, you knew nothing about their activities, it would have made no sense to abduct you. It in fact, made not sense to interrogate you for the three days which they did, you could tell them nothing. MS MABECE But then they didn't know that I didn't know anything, they thought I know a lot because they found Mbulelo whom they'd been looking for and they found a grenade in my possession and with asking Mbulelo some questions, I was present. So I knew some little informations, so they thought I would tell them more informations. MR VISSER But that didn't change the situation, did it? Well anyway, I asked you and you've given your explanation. Now you say at page 50, the top of the page, and I'll ask you about that. "I am willing to testify against the four culprits for the pain and suffering inflicted to me, Mbulelo and his family." and then you go on to say: "The abduction was not enough, they went to his family in Port Elizabeth, brought his photo." I just want to stop there for the moment. Am I wrong in reading this sentence to mean that the "they" that you refer to that went to his family in Port Elizabeth, refers to the culprits that abducted him? MS MABECE They could have used other people to commit the same act, it could not necessarily have been them in particular but their counterparts in South Africa. MR VISSER Alright. You say "they", or as you now say somebody on their behalf could have taken his photograph to the family in Port Elizabeth. And then you say "I was shown this photo when I visited them, per their request." Now what do you read into this? Let's assume that you're correct, the four culprits who abducted Mbulelo, now obviously wound him, they inflict a wound over one of his eyes, they wound is now allowed to heal to a certain extent, as you said in your evidence-in-chief, as I understood it, and then they take a photograph of him with the scar and they take that down to the family in Port Elizabeth, or someone on their behalf. Is that how you must be understood in what you say here? MS MABECE I don't know what their motive was for ...(intervention) MR VISSER Well I was going to ask you precisely that, why do you think would they have done that? MS MABECE I don't know what their motive was, but that's the photo that I was shown by the mother. MR VISSER Now when you were shown this photo by the mother, can you remember when this occurred? If I may help you, I think you did say it was ...(intervention) MS MABECE 1990, I think. MR VISSER 1990, yes I think you did say that. Now you see, there's a reference to this visit at page 790, by Ms Ngono, and she said "This person did not want us to hear what they were talking about with my mother, but when this person left my mother told us that this person had Mbulelo's photo and this photo was shown to my mother and he did not want us to see this photo. He said that Mbulelo was arrested and he was in the Transkei." What she's referring to her is a person that we know now, was Mr Bolelo. He was from the Louis le Grange Police Station in Port Elizabeth, and this gentleman, according to Ms Ngono, came to visit them at their home and he spoke to her mother, Mrs Ngono, and she later heard that he showed her a photograph. And she's then asked by myself - just to refresh your memory: "he said Mbulelo was arrested and he was in the Transkei" Now on the previous page she's already said this was in 1990, so I say to her: "MR VISSER: In 1990? MS NGONO: Yes, it was in 1990. MR VISSER: Mbulelo was in the Transkei in 1990, is that you impression of ...( and I was interrupted) MS NGONO: In the Transvaal." so she changes that from the Transkei to the Transvaal. "MR VISSER: Oh. As far as you are concerned therefore, can we accept that as far as your information that you got from your mother is concerned, Mbulelo Ngono was in the Transvaal in 1990? Is that what you're telling us? MS NGONO: According to what that person said." Now because you place you seeing the photograph of Mbulelo, in 1990, I'm asking you, or I'm assuming, and you can give your comment if you wish, that we're talking about the same photograph, the one with the scar? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER And in fact - if I could just find it quickly, in her evidence it also appears that this photograph showed a scar on Mbulelo's face. My attorney will just try and find it and I will give you the reference as soon as that happens. MR LAX You can rest assured it did say that, Mr Visser, you don't have to find the specific reference. MR VISSER Well, just for the sake of the record I thought if we can find it quickly, we'll do that, but thank you. Now you see, coming back to this strange behaviour, I want to argue with you a little bit, if you will. If one assumes that the Security Police of South Africa took Mbulelo Ngono away from your flat, they abducted him and they killed him, then this evidence doesn't fit, it doesn't make sense. Let me tell you why. It would make no sense for those Security policemen to take a photograph to advertise the fact that Ngono - please don't read notes that your attorney is making - that Ngono was in their presence. This is not criticism against my learned friend, but the witness seems to be more interested in what he's writing, than in listening to the question. MR KOOPEDI I'm wondering, Chairperson, if I should avail my notes to Mr Visser. CHAIRPERSON No, no, unless he insists. MR VISSER I'm not suggesting anything against you, Mr Koopedi. CHAIRPERSON You are entitled to write whatever you're writing, but he's just saying the witness should listen to him. I don't think it's a criticism against you. MR VISSER Can I repeat this? If the Security Police, the applicants in this matter had murdered Mr Ngono, can you think of any reason - it would be very helpful if you can, why they would take a photograph of him showing an injury to him, advertising the fact that they were in possession of Mr Ngono after he had been abducted from Lesotho? Perhaps you know something that we don't know. MS MABECE After I had seen the photo I thought that he was not killed immediately. MR VISSER Yes, which makes it worse, because now they have to keep him for a while until the scar starts healing, before they murder him. MS MABECE If he is murdered at all. MR VISSER Yes, if he's murdered at all. MR SIBANYONI Mr Visser, are you assuming that the policeman who showed the photo to the family was doing that as part of his duties, or he was doing it secretly to show ...? MR VISSER No, I'm basing it on this witness's evidence, that he was doing it on behalf of the persons who abducted Mbulelo. The culprits. That was her evidence. It may not have been the culprits themselves, but it was somebody on their behalf. It's just simply on that evidence that I'm basing the question. Well Ms Mabece, the fact of the matter is that it - and the Chairman should have stopped me a long time ago, this is really argument, I'm not going to pursue the matter any further, but I'm just going to - the reason why I put the questions to you is if you had an explanation, for you to give it because that is what I'm going to argue. I'm going to argue that there's no way that anybody would have been that reckless to have abducted Mr Ngono, to have inflicted a wound, a visible wound on him, to have waited until the wound started healing or healed, to take a photograph and to advertise the fact to the family by sending a photograph for them to see. But I think you've already given your reply to that. Chairperson, I see it's just about 4 o'clock ... CHAIRPERSON How long do you propose you're going to be? MR VISSER I don't believe all that long, Chairperson, but I would like to just go through - this is a witness that we didn't anticipate was going to be here, and I would like to go through my notes, and perhaps that may even save time. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. MR VISSER So if you wish to take the adjournment now, we'd appreciate it. CHAIRPERSON Ja, I'll take the adjournment, but bear in mind what I said earlier, if you're going to be longer we should make other arrangements. MR VISSER No, I don't anticipate to be long. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, we'll take a short adjournment. MR KOOPEDI May I indicate, Chairperson, before you break, that - may I indicate before the short adjournment, that she might have problems with being available tomorrow and I would prefer that we deal with her evidence in its entirety today. CHAIRPERSON Thank you for that, Mr Koopedi. MR VISSER Well that changes the picture, Chairperson. I will try to handle the pressure by looking at my notes immediately. CHAIRPERSON No, no, we'll give you the adjournment. We'll give you the short adjournment, it's only fair. MR VISSER Yes, but Chairperson, you mentioned that you had another appointment and I ... CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION LINDELWA MABECE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Visser. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER (cont) Thank you, Chairperson. Ms Mabece, I wasn't aware that you were only available today. Are you not available tomorrow to give evidence? MS MABECE I may not be available because of work pressures. MR VISSER What work do you do? MS MABECE I work for Nedcor Bank. MR VISSER But you are here under a subpoena, aren't you? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER You said in your evidence-in-chief, you referred to the December holidays, I take it it was the university holidays that you were referring to? No please, just speak up. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Thank you. And you said that students left early in December, on holiday. MR VISSER We normally write our midyear exams in December, and I would have remembered, because immediately after exams I would leave for home, so I know definitely, it couldn't have been during that time. MR VISSER Did you in fact leave Lesotho in December 1987, to go home? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Where was your home? MS MABECE East London. MR VISSER Can you remember what date you left? MS MABECE No, I don't. MR VISSER If you were not in Lesotho, would it be fair to say that you cannot deny that Mbulelo was present in Lesotho in December? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Okay. I want to ask you, when you wrote your statement, didn't you consider it to be a crucial thing to mention the date when this incident took place at your apartment, when Ngono was abducted? MS MABECE I had indicated in my last page that I may provide information in future if I may be requested. So this was a summary. MR VISSER No, but the obvious thing when you summarise events is you start off by saying, "on such and such a date this happened and this is my summary of what happened". Isn't that so? MS MABECE Not necessarily, that's why I'm here today, to give a verbal undertaking of what had taken place. MR VISSER Do you know a person by the name of Maj Buthelezi? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Is she in the hall - may I ask through the Evidence Leader or through the Chair, whether that person is present in the hall? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, she is, she's present. MR VISSER Could she just perhaps stand up for identification purposes. MR MAPOMA There she is. MR VISSER The person standing now with the orange overcoat, that's the person I'm referring to. I'm asking you, do you know that person? MR LAX Sorry, it's a shirt. CHAIRPERSON You must be clear, it's a shirt. MR VISSER A shirt. Do you know that person at all? MS MABECE No, I don't know her. MR VISSER You've never met her before? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Never spoke to her before? MS MABECE I couldn't have spoken to her if I've never met her. MR VISSER Ja, well. Do you know a person by the name of Nthunya? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER There's a statement by a Mr Nataniel Mona Nthunya, who says that he was in Lesotho, and from 1987 - page 56, paragraph 6, he was in the MK Cape Regional Command and his Commander was Attwell Mazizi Makhukeza, that is Mphilo. Now you told us before that you knew Mphilo. MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Alright, well it may be possible that you might have known Mr Nthunya by another name, so I won't press you on that. Now he refers to the fact that Mr Mphilo was killed in Maseru, in a hospital bed. Do you know anything about that? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Do you know anything about the circumstances of that assassination? MS MABECE Not in detail. I was told by Joe Mapumolo that ...(intervention) MR VISSER Just a moment, before you tell us what somebody else told you - Joe Mapumolo, is he a person who's still alive? MS MABECE No. MR VISSER Has he died? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Alright. Well what did he tell you? MS MABECE He told me that Mphilo and Brie Radebe had been with Ntsizwa, I don't know where, somewhere in Maseru, and they were involved in a shooting and that Brie died and Mphilo was subsequently killed. MR VISSER That's Radebe, Radebe died? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Yes and? MS MABECE And it was the three of them in a car, I don't know where. MR VISSER Yes. Nthunya refers the Committee at page 57 and onwards, to say that they had stopped the car - paragraph 12, to clean the windscreen and a 4X4 vehicle drove past, turned around, came back and this led to a shootout and Radebe, as you said, was killed. Did you also hear that Mphilo was wounded and taken to hospital? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER Did you ever discuss this with Mphilo before he died? MS MABECE What? MR VISSER The roadblock incident. MS MABECE No, I never knew of any roadblock until Joe told me that Mbulelo had been involved in a shootout and Mphilo was also involved. So we never spoke about that prior to that. MR VISSER Okay. Do you know when this incident took place? MS MABECE No, I don't. MR VISSER It must have been a traumatic incident for you? MS MABECE Yes, it is when people who are close to you are killed or ... MR VISSER Yes. Did you know Radebe? MS MABECE Yes, I did. MR VISSER Forgive me for asking you this, but why is it that you cannot give us even an estimate of this date, while you seem to recall the date on which you say Mbulelo was abducted from your flat so precisely, as being March 1988? MS MABECE Mbulelo was abducted in my flat in my presence, I'm definite about that. The other information that I'm telling you is hearsay, I don't know whether it's true or not. I was told that by Joe Mapumolo. MR VISSER Alright. But when did he say did this take place, or didn't he tell you? MS MABECE He told me after Mbulelo had been abducted. MR VISSER Are you sure of that? MS MABECE Yes. I had sent my sister to tell her that Mbulelo had been abducted, then perhaps months later, or I can't remember after how long a period did he tell me that Mbulelo was involved in that skirmish that happened somewhere in Lesotho. MR VISSER Alright. Do you have any idea who the people were that he was involved in this skirmish with? MS MABECE No. MR LAX Just while you're there, are you able to tell us whether this skirmish took place before his abduction or after his abduction? MS MABECE The way Joe Mapumolo related the story to me, it would appear that he escaped death, so he told me he was abducted after the skirmish. That's the impression I got. MR VISSER Now could you tell us why you think Mbulelo would not have told you himself? Told you himself about this skirmish where he escaped death. MS MABECE I had indicated that he was very secretive and I don't pry into things which are none of my concern. Secondly, perhaps he thought it would be much better for me not to know any information lest I be arrested and I may have to divulge that information which is not for anybody's ears. MR VISSER Now I want to put to you, Mr Mabece, that it is a long time ago and I'm putting it to you that you are mistaken when you say that Mbulelo was taken from your apartment in March 1988. I want to put it to you that that incident occurred in December 1987. MS MABECE I've disputed that so many times and I'm still disputing it. I'm absolutely certain that it was in 1998. MR VISSER Where did you dispute it before, what I'd just put to you? MS MABECE I told you when you were asking me that question. MR VISSER Oh, I thought this is the first time I'm putting it to you. It shows you. I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Mapoma, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Just a few, Chairperson. Ms Mabece, I recall that you gave evidence that Mbulelo went missing in September 1987, do you recall that? MS MABECE I can't really call that missing, as I had indicated that he used to come and go, but there was a time I had not seen him for a week or so and his apartment was not far from mine, so there was never a time that I could not know, I mean he could have been away longer than a well, although I could not really say he was missing because I knew that he used to come and go. MR LAX Sorry, if I can just say this. You did tell us though, that as far as you were aware he was missing from Lesotho, he was away from Lesotho. MS MABECE No, I didn't say that, you misunderstood. MR LAX Just listen to the rest of the question before you correct yourself or correct me. You said he was out of Lesotho from September till February and you only saw him again in February. That's what you told us earlier. MS MABECE No, I said I had not seen him since September, I only saw him in February. MR LAX Correct. MS MABECE Not that, I could not have said he was missing. MR LAX Well yes, maybe I'm stating it incorrectly that he was missing, the fact is you didn't see him in that time. MS MABECE Yes. MR LAX And the impression I got, correctly or incorrectly, was that he was outside of Lesotho during that time. MS MABECE I wouldn't have known where he was. MR LAX Precisely. So the fact is that - it's not a question that you didn't see him from week to week, you didn't see him for a long period of time. MS MABECE And he could have been anywhere, not necessarily out of Lesotho. MR LAX Yes, no-one's saying that, but the question was asked of you and you then proceeded to answer it on the basis that you would only really get worried if he was missing for more than a week. In fact, he was missing for much longer than a week. When I say "missing", don't misunderstand me, you didn't see him for longer than a week. In fact, you didn't see him from somewhere in September till somewhere in February. And that's a great many weeks. MS MABECE You must also understand that I was a student, so ... MR LAX Yes, I do understand that. MS MABECE So that is the time I'm preparing for my exams. MR LAX I fully understand that. And you also went home for the holidays in-between and all that, so I do understand all of that. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, I'm just trying to make sure that you don't say something you don't intend to say. MR MAPOMA Thank you. Now Thande Radebe, was he a student at Roma? MS MABECE Yes. MR VISSER I didn't catch the name. CHAIRPERSON Thande Figa Radebe. MR MAPOMA Now when an incident took place where he died, did you not become aware of that incident, as a student in Roma? MS MABECE Thande Figa was enrolled with the Institute for Extramural Studies, a division of NUL, so I got to know his death after Joe had told me. Prior to that I didn't know what could have happened to him, because we were not attending the same institution. MR MAPOMA NUL would be the National University of Lesotho? MS MABECE Yes, and the Institute for Extramural Studies was based in Maseru, but he was staying in Roma. He was commuting to Maseru. MR MAPOMA I see. Now when Mphilo died in hospital, when did you become aware of that incident? MS MABECE After Joe had told me. MR MAPOMA So are you or are you not in a position to tell whether Mbulelo was arrested prior or after the death of Mphilo? MS MABECE I only got to know of Mphilo's death after Joe had told me and Joe told me after Mbulelo had been abducted. MR MAPOMA I see. Chairperson, that is all I wanted to clarify, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Koopedi, any re-examination? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-exam, thanks Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mabece, these four men who came to your apartment, did they all enter your apartment when Mbulelo was abducted? MS MABECE Yes. CHAIRPERSON How many rooms did your apartment consist of? MS MABECE One. CHAIRPERSON So you did everything in one room. Unfortunately I don't assume anything, Ms Mabece, you'll bear with me. MR SIBANYONI I wanted to ask you this question. You said when you entered the kombi where he was, you found him lying on the floor in the back seat. MS MABECE Yes. MR SIBANYONI Was he lying facing down, sideways, or up? MS MABECE Lying on his back. MR SIBANYONI His back. And his arms, were they tied behind him or in front of him? MS MABECE Behind. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Chairperson. MS MABECE That's how he left the room. MR SIBANYONI I see. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now in this kombi, did you speak to him whilst driven to the police station? MS MABECE No, we did not speak. CHAIRPERSON Were you ordered not to speak to each other, or what was the position that you didn't speak to each other after this ordeal? MS MABECE I was scared and he didn't look at me, so that was an indication enough that he didn't want us to talk. CHAIRPERSON I do understand you when you say Mbulelo was a secretive person, but do you realise that it's about five months that you didn't see each other and when he showed up, weren't you curious to say: "Hey, you must remember, we are lovers and how could you go away for five months?"? MS MABECE I knew his situation, my priorities were my studies. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, anything arising from what we asked? MR KOOPEDI Nothing arising, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? MR VISSER No, thank you, except that I'm tempted to ask about the one room. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No further questions, Chairperson. MR LAX Thanks. There was just one thing that I just wanted to check up on. You told us this was a sort of a kombi, as you referred to it, was that a minibus or was it a Volkswagen? Do you know the difference? MS MABECE It's a minibus. MR LAX A minibus? MS MABECE Yes. MR LAX You don't know what make it was? MS MABECE I'm not into cars, but ... MR LAX And colour? MS MABECE The one which - it was beige. MR LAX Beige. Do you remember the registration plates of it, was it a Lesotho vehicle or a South African vehicle? MS MABECE I don't remember checking that, I can't remember. MR LAX And just the other thing was that there were four people and you said two played a less active role at a certain point. Who took you into the police station? If you're not able to remember, you're not able to remember, but was it the people who were driving or was it the other people? MS MABECE I can't remember who was driving, but it was one of the people who had been to my room. MR LAX The four people in the vehicle were the same four that were in your room, or were they different? MS MABECE The same people. MR LAX And how many of them got out with you at the police station? MS MABECE Two. MR LAX And two remained in the vehicle. MS MABECE Yes. MR LAX And you didn't see that vehicle again. MS MABECE Since I did not know the registration, I did see a same minibus moving up and down in Roma, but I didn't know whether it was the same vehicle. MR LAX Thanks. And obviously you have no idea where they took Mbulelo. MS MABECE No. MR LAX Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Mabece, you are excused. MS MABECE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON This brings us to the end of today. Could I say we start at nine-thirty tomorrow? Is that agreeable to everybody, nine-thirty tomorrow? MR MALINDI It's fine Chairperson, it's acceptable to us. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We adjourn until nine-thirty tomorrow morning, the 7th. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS