amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-01-31 UMTATA 1 MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA AM6361 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54011&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200131um.htm CHAIRPERSON Will you please stand to take the oath. And give your full names for the record first please. MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please be seated. Yes, Mr Dambuza. EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Mazizi, are you an applicant in these proceedings in terms of Section 18 and 20 of Act number 3 of 1995? MR NTISANA That is correct. JUDGE MILLER Sorry before you proceed, Ms Dambuza - Mr Ntisana, is Sidwell Mzwamadoda Ntisana not you? MR NTISANA No, it's not me. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. JUDGE MILLER We have an application from Mr SM Ntisana, Bongweni, Mxutu, Gumengu - oh yes, so it's number 5. MS DAMBUZA It is number 5, Mr Chairman, thanks. JUDGE MILLER Sorry. Thank you. Sorry about that, thank you. MS DAMBUZA Now I was asking if you are an applicant in terms of Sections 18 and 20 of the Act number 3 of 1995? MR NTISANA Yes, that is correct. MS DAMBUZA And is it correct that you have deposed to an affidavit in support of your application? MR NTISANA That is correct. MS DAMBUZA Is it correct that in that affidavit you say that from 1986 you were a member of the Transkei Parliament, under Ms Stella Sigcau? MR NTISANA That is correct. MS DAMBUZA And that during that period the parliament of Ms Sigcau was overthrown by Gen Holomisa? MR NTISANA That is correct. MS DAMBUZA And that you say that after six months of Gen Holomisa's council on office you went to him demanding that a civilian government be put back in place. MR NTISANA That is correct, that's what we did. MS DAMBUZA Did that happen? MR NTISANA No, it did not happen. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, Mr Dambuza, just to get clarity -you say you went and then you say "that's what we did", did you go as a member of a group or did you do this personally, Mr Ntisana? - when you approached Gen Holomisa about the establishment of a civilian government. MR NTISANA I think we were about 30 in that group. JUDGE MILLER Yes, Mr Dambuza. MS DAMBUZA And what was Gen Holomisa's response to that? MR NTISANA He said he was not ready for that, he was still busy ...(indistinct) MS DAMBUZA And what did you do thereafter? MR NTISANA We waited but we were arrested one by one. MS DAMBUZA MR NTISANA It was after he was released from prison in Port Elizabeth, it was after a while. MS DAMBUZA After who was released? MR NTISANA After Mr Duli and Mr Mbotoli were released from Port Elizabeth. MS DAMBUZA What were your reasons of wanting a civilian government to be put back in place? MR NTISANA We wanted the people's government that would be elected democratically by the people and who would be mandated by the people. MS DAMBUZA Now is it correct that when Col Duli was released from jail he gave you instructions to contact persons in the Transkei Defence Force? MR NTISANA Yes, that is correct, that happened in January 1990. MS DAMBUZA Did he tell you what he wanted these people for and if so, what was the reason? MR NTISANA He didn't tell us why he wanted these people, he just said that he was out of jail, he was going to go back to his work and he was working with these people. MS DAMBUZA Who did you contact? MR NTISANA It was Bongo Ndamase, Nzwamadoda Ntisana, Hlumelo Mxutu, Bongweni, Mr Bongweni. MS DAMBUZA And is it correct that you took these people to meet Col Duli? MR NTISANA They asked me to take them to him and I did. MS DAMBUZA Do you know the contents of their communication with Col Duli? MR NTISANA I was not present in their meeting, I just dropped them off and then I left. MS DAMBUZA Were you aware that Gen Duli was planning a coup? MR NTISANA At that time I did not know. MS DAMBUZA When did you become aware? MR NTISANA I became aware after he told me that these people that he called in that meeting were arrested. MS DAMBUZA Are those the people that you have just mentioned? MR NTISANA Yes, that is correct. MS DAMBUZA Did he tell you the reasons why they had been arrested? MR NTISANA He told me after warning me that I should go outside because I was also going to be arrested, he told me that I should go to him so that he could tell me why they arrested. I then knew why they were arrested. MS DAMBUZA Were you of the opinion that it would be in the interests of Transkei if the military council government came to an end? MR NTISANA I was quite sure of that. MS DAMBUZA MR NTISANA I was part of those plans, but not on the side of the military. MS DAMBUZA Can you briefly tell the Tribunal the extent of your involvement or what acts you did. MR NTISANA My involvement or my role in the 1990 coup was that after Mr Duli was released from prison and I was also outside the Transkei, I was running away from being arrested and I was in East London, Mr Duli wanted to come back to the Transkei, he said that the soldiers were calling him to come back and to take over the government. And we would discuss that and I said to him we had no interest in the military government. He then said that he was not interested in the military government either, he wanted the government to go back to the people, to be the people's government. And at that time we agreed on the fact that if he was going to come here as the military, he would here to take over the government, but he did not give us details, he did not give me details about how he was going to do this. But what I said is that I did not want to be involved in something that would involve, or that would make people to lose their lives. He said that he did not have weapons, the police had taken his weapons. MS DAMBUZA Did you foresee any bloodshed in the intended coup? MR NTISANA I was sure that there was not going to be any bloodshed because he said that he did not have weapons with him, he said that he was called by his friends inside. So I was sure that he had no weapons, so because of that there would be no bloodshed. MS DAMBUZA MR NTISANA First of all, inside me I knew that we would take over, we can take over the government back to the people and we had already agreed that there would be no bloodshed. He then called me on this particular day, the day that he was planning to overthrow the government. He said that I must take people from Queenstown. There were three people, I had to take them with my van and he told me that I must not take their route, I must take the Maclear route and he would contact me now and then over the radio. MS DAMBUZA Did he tell you what route he himself would follow? MR NTISANA No, he did not tell me. MS DAMBUZA And then what was to happen to these people that you were going to pick up from Queenstown? MR NTISANA They would be with me, they were not going to take any part to what was going to happen to that operation he was going to do. They did not have weapons with them, we did not have weapons with us. MS DAMBUZA And then what happened after you picked them up? MR NTISANA I picked them up and then I drove from Queenstown to Maclear and to Tsolo and I would contact him over the radio and talk to him and tell him that I was on the way to Tsolo. And after that communication there was a communication breakdown when I was in Tsolo. MS DAMBUZA And what did you do when the communication broke down? MR NTISANA After the communication breakdown I went around Tsolo because we were tired, we wanted to sleep. We slept for a while and then after realising that we had this problem, we decided to go back to Maclear because we were already in the Transkei, in Tsolo and that is where we did not want to be arrested. We were running away from the Transkei, so we decided to go back to Maclear. MS DAMBUZA And then when you got to Maclear, what did you do? MR NTISANA When we got to Maclear it was early hours of the morning, it was in the morning and we heard over the radio that Col Duli went to the Transkei and things did not go according to his way at that time. MS DAMBUZA What do you mean when you say things did not go according to plan? MR NTISANA According to what we heard over the radio it was clear that he did not get what he had promised to get, there was some conflict that was happening. MS DAMBUZA And what did you do on hearing that? MR NTISANA After hearing that I took these people, those that were with me, I took them back to Queenstown where I found them. I then went back to East London where I was staying. MS DAMBUZA What was your actual involvement going to be in the process? - that is the coup itself. MR NTISANA My role was on the second plan because there was going to be another operation, another military operation that we termed Operation Sacrifice, that was going to be led by Mr Duli. And there was another one, Operation Dawn, whereby after everything was done, after the soldiers were taken back to their camp, I would then take steps to build a new government. MS DAMBUZA What exactly were you - how were you going to facilitate that? MR NTISANA When the soldiers were taken back to the camps and the Security Forces were deployed and the soldiers, my job would have been to call the kings and the chiefs from Sterkspruit, Maluti, Emboleni, Chingoland. I would call them and they would come together with the paramount chiefs and the State President was going to be involved and would give instructions that the State President ask the judge for them to be the custodians of the Transkei so that there could be an interim cabinet that would rule the Transkei. And we were going to give the President a sick leave after we had taken over. I was going to stay in that house until things became more clearer. MS DAMBUZA And is it correct that you had in your possession tapes which would be transmitted over the radio to advise the general public of the take-over of the coup? MR NTISANA Yes, I had those tapes with me, but I destroyed them after this attempted coup, after our plan failed. MS DAMBUZA Did you become aware at any stage that during the course of the attempt of the coup there were some people who died? MR NTISANA I heard that. That was a very painful thing because after all those attempts there were some people that lost their lives. MS DAMBUZA What eventually happened to yourself after you destroyed the tapes and went back to East London? MR NTISANA I then went to Johannesburg and while I was in Johannesburg I was lured to go to Durban but I escaped and then I went back to Johannesburg. There were spies that were supposed to kidnap me. I went back to East London, whereby I asked the police or I told the military government that I was in East London, if there was something they needed I was available. So I went back and I handed myself over here in the Transkei, so that I can face charges if that was to be. MS DAMBUZA And is it correct that then you were prosecuted, convicted and sentenced to 11 years imprisonment? MR NTISANA Yes, that is correct. MS DAMBUZA How many years did you actually stay in prison? MR NTISANA One year and six months. MS DAMBUZA And is it correct that you were released in 1995 on presidential parole? MR NTISANA That is correct. MS DAMBUZA Are you now applying for amnesty for the acts which you have just outlined to the Committee? MR NTISANA Yes, that is correct, I am here today to humble myself, especially to the families who lost their loved ones. Even though I just stated that I was not part of that military operation, but I was involved in the planning of that and after all this I would have been ...(indistinct). So the fact that people lost their lives, that is very painful to me. And I had a decision that I was going to represent and protect people but it happened that instead of protecting them, some of them lost their lives. MS DAMBUZA Mr Chairman, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS DAMBUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Dambuza. Yes, Mr Nodada. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mazizi, do you - rather, have you disclosed everything that you wanted to disclose to this Committee? MR NTISANA I tried, Sir. MR NODADA And you are aware that the Act that governs these hearings demands and requires that one should make a complete disclosure of one's involvement in any commission of an offence. JUDGE MILLER It says a full disclosure of all relevant facts. MR NODADA All relevant facts, thank you, Sir. JUDGE MILLER Yes, we don't need to know every single minute detail if it's irrelevant. MR NODADA Yes. You are aware of that Mr Ntisana? MR NTISANA Yes, I'm aware. MR NODADA I believe that you are the person who actually recruited your brother Mzwandile Ntisana, is that correct? MR NTISANA I recruited him but I was not aware. MR NODADA You were not aware of what? MR NTISANA I was not aware that the intention was to overthrow the government at the time I was recruiting him. I spoke to Craig Duli after he was released from prison in Port Elizabeth, not in Lusikisiki, at about June and this incident happened in January. MR NODADA When you recruited Mzwandile and others, what did you think they were required for by Col Duli? MR NTISANA To me it was enough for him to say that he wanted them because he wanted to go back to work and I can say that all these people together with Craig Duli, from time to time they would go and visit me because I had two brothers that were working for the Military Intelligence. So it was common for him to visit me at home. MR NODADA Now when Craig Duli was released from custody, what were his conditions of release, do you know? MR NTISANA I don't know. MR NODADA When he said to you he wanted to come back to Transkei and work, did you know what he had been working as before he was detained? MR NTISANA Yes, I knew. MR NODADA What was he working as? MR NTISANA He was working for the Military Intelligence. MR NODADA Was he not the second-in-command to Gen Bantu Holomisa, as a Chairman of the military council? MR NTISANA That is correct. MR NODADA And you knew that when he was detained it was because he had fallen into some disagreement with Gen Holomisa. MR NTISANA Yes, that is correct, I noticed that. MR NODADA Did you then ask him what he was going to come back to Transkei and work as? MR NTISANA He said that he was going back to his office, he was expelled. JUDGE MILLER So what did you think Mr Ntisane, that he was going back to become second-in-charge again of the military council? Is that what you think when he said he was going back to his office? MR NTISANA I believed what he said because he was a very clever man. MR NODADA Right. You were a member of parliament during the previous government under the leadership of Stella Sigcau, is that correct? MR NTISANA That is correct, Sir. MR NODADA And after that government had been overthrown by the military council under Holomisa, what did you become? Or rather, did you become anything in the government that took over? MR NTISANA I refused the offer of taking part in the government. MR NODADA So you did not become a member of the State. MR NTISANA In the Holomisa government? MR NODADA Wherever. Immediately after your being a member of parliament came to an end, you just became an ordinary citizen like any other Transkeian citizen? MR NTISANA I was an ordinary member of the Transkei and I refused an offer to go to the embassy in Port Elizabeth. MR NODADA I see. And you were not pleased when you discontinued to be an MP, as a result of the coup at the instance of Bantu Holomisa and others. MR NTISANA I still want to be the member of the parliament, even now. MR NODADA Yes I know that, but you were not pleased when that came to an end abruptly. MR NTISANA No, I was not pleased. MR NODADA When you were a member of parliament, were you not serving your own interests as a person? MR NTISANA No, I was serving the interest of the people. MR NODADA Is it correct that you were serving the interests of the people as well as your own interests? MR NTISANA I don't understand the question. MR NODADA Is it not correct that you were not only serving the interests of the people of Transkei, but you were also serving your own personal interests? MR NTISANA I was serving the interests of the people and I was amongst those people. MR NODADA What I want to establish is whether the interests that you were serving were to the exclusion of your personal interests. JUDGE MILLER Sorry, what do you mean by that Mr Nodada? We know that he was an MP and going with that position is some status, some remuneration, certain benefits. MR NODADA Those are the items that ...(intervention) JUDGE MILLER But I mean we know that that happens with every MP, you can get an MP who is an MP and has no interest in serving the people, he's only doing it because he's getting a salary and he likes the status. You get other MPs who find the question of the salary and status irrelevant and they want to do it to serve the people. So I think if you can just make it more clear to Mr Ntisane what you're trying to get at, because obviously everybody who does a job, any job - I'm doing a job, we're all doing a job here and we're doing it for the interests of the process, but it's obviously in a certain respect, we're doing it in our interest because it's our job. If we didn't do it we wouldn't eat at night or have a roof over our head. MR NODADA I quite appreciate that Judge, I'm quite indebted to you for that ...(intervention) MR NTISANA Am I supposed to answer? MR NODADA No. No, the judge has just intervened on your behalf so that I can clarify my question. And the question that I want to get an answer to is whether you fall in the category of those MPs who also had an interest in the income, that is the remuneration as well as the status, or you really didn't care about what you earned or the benefit that you got out of that, you were just concerned about your people? MR NTISANA It is true that I'm a different person, I am a person who is willing to work for the community without any pay, as I am doing right now. MR NODADA Alright, let's come back to the planning for this coup. Is it correct that Col Craig Duli was living in Stutterheim after he had been released from prison in Port Elizabeth? He settled down in Stutterheim. MR NTISANA Yes, that is correct. MR NODADA Before he was released from prison did you ever visit him when he was still in detention? MR NTISANA Yes, I did visit him in Port Elizabeth. MR NODADA When exactly did this association between you and Col Craig Duli begin? - in relation to your status as an MP and also to his status as the second-in-command of the military council in the Transkei. MR NTISANA The association with Craig Duli started in 1975. I was a businessman in Lebode and his in-laws were in Lebode and when his wife got injured in my shop, that was when we started to know each other and we are somewhat related with his wife. MR NODADA I see. Let's come to the day of this incident. You say you were instructed to drive from East London and go and pick up some persons in Queenstown, who were those persons? MR NTISANA They were being called Ntati, they were from Lesotho. One of them if I still remember was Makobokobo, but they were referred to as Ntati because they were from Lesotho. MR NODADA Is it correct they were members of the Lesotho Liberation Army? MR NTISANA Yes, that is what was said. MR NODADA And they were soldiers? MR NTISANA Yes, that was what was said, even though Makobokobo was over 70 years old. MR NODADA How did you establish that he was over 70 years old? MR NTISANA I knew that during the court case in court. MR NODADA You did not know these three persons before you met them on the 22nd? MR NTISANA No, I did not know them before. MR NODADA Were you told the purpose of picking up those persons from Queenstown, why you had to go and pick them up? MR NTISANA No, he did not tell me the purpose, he told me when I was in Queenstown that I had to pick up these people and that he was going to Transkei. All the time he didn't tell me, he kept this inside. MR NODADA So you were still in East London when you were told to go to Queenstown and pick up those persons. MR NTISANA Yes. MR NODADA And from Queenstown, where were you going to take them? MR NTISANA He told me to drive with them. As they were soldiers, I think they were bodyguards, but they didn't have anything with them. MR NODADA They were bodyguards for who? MR NTISANA They were supposed to be my bodyguards if they had weapons, but if they did not have weapons we would be in the same car, they would be like me. MR NODADA Now when you say they were supposed to be your bodyguards, what do you mean? Were you told that they were going to be your bodyguards? MR NTISANA I'm not saying they were bodyguards, what I'm saying is as I was told that they were soldiers, if they had weapons I would say that he had given me bodyguards but because they had no weapons with them, they were just together with me. MR NODADA How did you know that they didn't have weapons? MR NTISANA Because they were with me. If they had weapons I would have seen them. MR NODADA You didn't search for weapons? MR NTISANA No, I didn't search for weapons. MR NODADA Right. Apart from picking up those persons from Queenstown, where were you actually en-route to? MR NTISANA He told me to take the Maclear road and I would get instructions from him. MR NODADA Where were you actually - what was your destination when you left East London? I understand the route, but what was your destination? MR NTISANA He would give me instructions of my destination. MR NODADA And whose motor vehicle were you driving? MR NTISANA It was mine. MR NODADA And the one that was driven by Col Duli, or in which he was a passenger, if he was a passenger? MR NTISANA It was the one that was driven by me. MR NODADA Now when you left East London, were you driving along with Col Duli? MR NTISANA No, I was alone. MR NODADA And you were alone when you left East London and then you met three guys, at least three members of the Liberation Army of Lesotho, in Queenstown? MR NTISANA Yes, that is correct. MR NODADA And where was Duli all that time? MR NTISANA He had already left. MR NODADA Left what place? MR NTISANA Queenstown. MR NODADA So before you got to Queenstown, Col Duli had been there in Queenstown but left before you arrived? MR NTISANA Col Duli left me in East London and he went to Queenstown, when I arrived in Queenstown he had already left Queenstown. MR NODADA And what transport was he using when he left East London, going to Queenstown? MR NTISANA If I still remember well he was using his Mercedes Benz, the grey one. MR NODADA But what did you mean when you said you were, he was driving, I mean you were driving the same car as he was? What did you actually say when I asked you what transport, or whose motor vehicle Col Duli was driving? MR NTISANA I did not say that. MR NODADA What did you say? MR NTISANA I said I was driving my own car, I was not with him. MR NODADA I see, maybe I didn't understand you correctly. Anyway, did you ask him where he was going to from Queenstown? MR NTISANA Who? MR NODADA Col Duli. MR NTISANA When I arrived in Queenstown he was not there, he had already left. JUDGE MILLER I think what Mr Nodada wants to know is, when you spoke to Col Duli, when he told you to go to Queenstown to pick up these three gentlemen, did he tell you or give you any information as to where he was going? And perhaps if he did, as to why he was going to where he was going. MR NTISANA All he said over the radio was that I should pick these people up and take the route to Maclear. He said that over the radio. He said that he was going to the Transkei and I had to wait for his instructions. That is all. MR NODADA And of course you were in constant contact with him until you were at Tsolo, where you lost contact with him. MR NTISANA Yes, for some time. MR NODADA And he kept on informing you about his whereabouts until you lost contact? MR NTISANA He would not tell me where he was, but he would ask whether we are still safe on the road and I would say "Yes we're still driving well on the road". MR NODADA And of course you knew that he was - on that same day which was I believe, was it the night of the 21st of November 1992 or the morning of the 22nd of November 1990? - I beg your pardon. MR NTISANA When he said that he was going to the Transkei, it was on the 21st at night. MR NODADA And you knew that that was the day that he was coming to take over power from Gen Holomisa. MR NTISANA Yes, it was that day. MR NODADA And as planned, you knew that he was coming with all the members of the military wing as well as other people to assist him in the taking over, you knew that he was not just coming all by himself here, he had a lot of other people accompanying him? MR NTISANA Unfortunately I did not know who was with him. MR NODADA But at least you knew that there were armed people that were in his company. MR NTISANA I did not know that because I heard that their weapons were taken in Port Elizabeth. MR NODADA Didn't you know that when he was coming to take over power, he would resist - or rather he would apply force if he was meeting any resistance? MR NTISANA I did not know that would happen because he said that he was called by the soldiers of the Transkei. MR NODADA So when he came he was going to meet the soldiers of Transkei, who were going to assist him to take over power. Is that what he said to you? MR NTISANA Yes, he said that. He said that there was not going to be any bloodshed because the job would not be difficult because the soldiers of the Transkei were ready for him, that he must take over. Maybe I would say that I was dealing with a person who was very clever than me. That's what I realised after some time. MR NODADA And during the planning stage, how much did you know about the manner in which this whole coup was going to be executed, what details did you know? MR NTISANA I didn't have any details about what was going to happen or how it was going to happen, I was supposed to wait and then after he had finished his operation he would tell me that he was through and what had happened. MR NODADA Now when you went back to Maclear and later heard over the radio that the coup had not been successful, what did you do with the three passengers that you had in your vehicle? MR NTISANA I took them back to where I found them in Queenstown, even though I was scared. MR NODADA And from there you drove back to East London. MR NTISANA Yes, I drove back to East London. MR NODADA And when did you first learn that some people had been killed at the Ncise camp and also elsewhere? MR NTISANA I heard that from the news, that was the first time I heard that. MR NODADA Was that when you were at Maclear or on the way between Maclear and East London? MR NTISANA Yes, I can say on the way between Maclear and East London. MR NODADA Did you consider yourself part of that killing? MR NTISANA Because of the conspiracy I can say yes, I was part of the killing. MR NODADA Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Malan, have you got any questions? MR MALAN No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA What political objective did you intend achieving by taking over the Holomisa government? MR NTISANA The intention was that Transkei should be ruled by the civilians, not the military, so that all the changes can be done by the people of the Transkei. MR MAPOMA Prior to Holomisa taking over, the Transkei government was led by a political party known as the Tinip(?), do you recall that? MR NTISANA Yes. MR MAPOMA Were you a member of the Tinip? MR NTISANA Yes, I was a member because we were overthrown when we were busy reviving the strength of the Tinip when the government was overthrown. MR MAPOMA And during the Tinip era the political activities led by the liberation movements were banned in Transkei then, do you recall that? MR NTISANA That is correct, Sir. MR MAPOMA And there were good relations, working relations between the Transkei government, led by Tinip and the apartheid government led by P W Botha and then later on F W de Klerk. Is that correct? MR NTISANA There was conflict Sir, between those two governments, their relations were not good. MR MAPOMA But when it comes to curbing the actions of those who were referred to as the terrorists, there was a good co-operation between these two parties, is it not correct? MR NTISANA It was not that good but it surprised me when the government was led by Ms Stella Sigcau when people from Lusaka were arrested we were surprised as members of the parliament when those people went to Lusaka to see the members of the ANC and when they came back they were arrested and a lot of us were surprised by that action. MR MAPOMA Now during the Holomisa era, you will agree with me that the government led by Holomisa was to a great extent sympathetic to the liberation movements. MR NTISANA I read that from the newspapers and I also saw that on TV, Sir, because I was already in prison when it became clear that he was working with them, or he sympathised with them. But before the Holomisa coup, the reasons why the government was overthrown I became aware of those reasons because they said that the security of the Transkei was not working properly. The relatives were the ones who were hired and ...(indistinct) Matanzima was also arrested. Those were the reasons that led to the removal of Ms Stella Sigcau. MR MAPOMA Yes, I think to a certain extent you have answered my question. Now the good relations that Holomisa had with the liberation movements was not taken kindly by the South African Government during that period, is that not correct? MR NTISANA Yes, that is correct because I heard about that. MR MAPOMA And in fact the South African Government was assisting Col Duli in getting rid of the Holomisa government through your actions. Do you agree with me? MR NTISANA I did not see that, I'm not going to agree with you because I did not see what you are saying. MR MAPOMA Yes, but it's actually correct that Col Duli was working with the South African Government, the South African Government was aiding him in getting rid of the Holomisa government. Were you not aware of that throughout up to this moment? MR NTISANA That was a very clever man, I was not aware of that, not at all. MR MAPOMA When did you become at aware, if at all you did become aware, that Col Duli was working with the South African Government when he was conducting the aborted coup? MR NTISANA I don't have evidence of that, even now I'm surprised of how he managed to do that. JUDGE MILLER Have you ever heard of it before? Have you heard it said that the South African Government were assisting him in his endeavours to overthrow the Transkei Government? MR NTISANA No, I did not see or hear anything about that. Since he was arrested in Queenstown I saw that there was no-one protecting him or helping him. JUDGE MILLER But I mean even now recently, haven't you heard that? MR NTISANA No, I haven't heard. MR MAPOMA MR NTISANA I wouldn't know because the government I was serving under was Nkosazana Stella Sigcau's government. MR MAPOMA Who are those paramount chiefs that you identified as chiefs who were going to be coopted into the intended interim government? MR NTISANA They were not going to be in the interim government, but they would call the Transkeian people so that the people can appoint the interim cabinet. It was the paramount chiefs from Emampondweni, two of them, Mxalega and two from Themboland and the king from Maluti, Mzimkhulu, Emboland and Fingoland, according to the regions of the Transkei. MR MAPOMA But if I'm not mistaken, if you will correct me if I'm wrong, you spoke of four chiefs, who are these four chiefs? MR NTISANA Maybe I didn't count properly. Even now I did not count how many there are. There is no paramount chief in Maluti and Fingoland and in Herschel there's no paramount chief and in Emboland there's no paramount chief. MR MAPOMA No, what I want to find out Sir is, who are these chiefs that you had in mind to be coopted into your government? MR NTISANA We did not pick them by names, but because I knew all the regions would have a chief that would represent the region. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions? JUDGE MILLER Did you become a member of parliament when the Sigcau government, Ms Sigcau became Prime Minister? MR NTISANA That is correct. JUDGE MILLER You weren't one before, during the governments of the Matanzimas? MR NTISANA We became members after Chief George Matanzima. JUDGE MILLER How long have you been a member of the Tsitina party? MR NTISANA From the 1980s. JUDGE MILLER The radio that you were using when you were driving - you said that you communicated with Col Duli with a radio, where did you get that radio from? MR NTISANA He had radios with him - Mr Craig Duli. He had radios with him. JUDGE MILLER Did he give you a radio? MR NTISANA Yes, there was a radio with me in the car. JUDGE MILLER And are you still saying Mr Ntisana, that you've never heard of the allegation, even of it being said that Col Duli received arms from the South African Security Forces, through Eugene de Kock? MR NTISANA I only read that from the newspapers, but I cannot give evidence on that because I never saw him speaking to any white person. JUDGE MILLER And you don't know the route that Col Duli took to get into Transkei that night, the 21st November? MR NTISANA No, not at all. I wouldn't have sacrificed my car and the car that he borrowed from me to go to Kofinvaba. I saw that on TV. JUDGE MILLER Did you ever have meetings with Mr Mbotoli regarding the changing of government in Transkei? MR NTISANA No. JUDGE MILLER And the previous two applicants who testified this morning, that's Messrs Gumengu and Nombanga, did you come across them at all during that period? MR NTISANA I saw Gumengu in Johannesburg, but I did not know him but he knew me. JUDGE MILLER Did you talk with him? MR NTISANA No, we didn't say anything to each other. JUDGE MILLER Do you have any comment on what you heard this morning, that he was at all times, had infiltrated your group? When I say your group I mean the persons involved in the planning of the coup. MR NTISANA I was surprised when he said what he said. JUDGE MILLER Because you must have got to know him quite well, you were co-accused in the trial weren't you, and that trial lasted for a long, long time. MR NTISANA Yes, I know him because we were together in jail and Mr Nombanga was also in jail. JUDGE MILLER Thank you, Mr Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Under what circumstances did you see Gumengu in Johannesburg, did you attend a meeting with him? MR NTISANA We met in the street. They came to me, I had a problem, my car broke down and they told me that they were from the Transkei. MR SIBANYONI Insofar as the intended coup is concerned, at least you knew that the paramount chief will be called as well as the judge will be called to ask the other chiefs to take custody of Transkei, is that so? MR NTISANA Yes, I knew that, I knew that those were the intentions. MR SIBANYONI And did those chiefs know that they will be asked to take custody of Transkei? MR NTISANA No, they did not know. MR SIBANYONI And at what stage were you supposed to use the tapes which you had in your custody? MR NTISANA After Col Duli gave out the instruction that everything was under control those tapes were going to be used. MR SIBANYONI And then the districts you are talking about are quite vast if I'm not mistaken, how would those chiefs be summonsed, be called together? MR NTISANA I once asked that question but he said that in all the regions there were easy ways, maybe they could go to the police station and they would find out about that after everything was done. MR SIBANYONI Now in 1992, the political atmosphere was quite different here in South Africa, including the homelands, it was obvious that there would be general elections where everybody would take part, there would be no military councils or military juntas, was it any political ... to try to get hold or to take over Transkei from Gen Holomisa? Or was it just a power struggle between you people residing in that area? MR NTISANA It was the conflict that was amongst the people in the Transkei, it had nothing to do with the political liberation movements that were banned, that were not in the Transkei. MR SIBANYONI In other areas like in other homelands, the majority of the people were in favour of the changes which were taking place away from the homelands, was it not the case with Transkei? MR NTISANA It was going to be like that. MR SIBANYONI Why do you say you were acting in the interests of the people of the Transkei, when you are not sure whether they wanted you and Col Duli to seize power in Transkei? MR NTISANA We were not going to rule Transkei, but the people of Transkei were going to rule Transkei and the changes were going to be done by the people of the Transkei, not the military. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Dambuza, any re-examination? MS DAMBUZA None, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes Mr Ntisana, thank you very much, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MS DAMBUZA Mr Chairman, now I call Mzwamadoda Ntisana to the witness box. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's number 1 on our list. MS DAMBUZA It is number 1, it is applicant number 1, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well.