amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-02-01 PRETORIA 2 MICHAEL BENSWANA AM9000/97 ATTACK ON MR NTOMBELA AND MR NGEMA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54014&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200201pt.htm CHAIRPERSON The Panel that sat in the Buthelezi matter will now sit to hear and consider the application of applicants, Michael Benswana and Raymond Nqanda. Will the legal representative of Mr Benswana and Nqanda kindly place herself on record. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Crystal Cambanis, an attorney appearing for both applicants, as well as the implicated persons namely, Ms Skosana and a Mr ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Nqati. MS CAMBANIS No, no, Your Worship, there's a Mr Mhlambi who is present. We're not sure why he has been called, but should the reason be revealed at some I will deal with it. He has a Section 19(4) notice, but we cannot trace his name. CHAIRPERSON Mr who? MS CAMBANIS Mhlambi if I ... CHAIRPERSON Can you just spell it for me. MS CAMBANIS M-h-l-a-m-b-i and his initials are S H. And he has received a Section 19(4) notice, he's been present yesterday and today. He cannot explain why ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Your microphone is off. MS CAMBANIS From the point of view of the applicants, we cannot explain why he has been summoned because he is not named by us as ... CHAIRPERSON Yes. From our reading of the papers we seem to be lost as to why Mr Mhlambi should be here, but maybe Mr Steenkamp will enlighten us further on that. MS CAMBANIS Thank you. CHAIRPERSON And for the victims? MR NYAWUZA Thank you, Madam Chair. My name is O P Nyawuza from O P Nyawuza Attorneys. I'm representing the victims in this instance. CHAIRPERSON Mr ? MR NYAWUZA N-y-a-w-u-z-a, initials O P. I'm representing the victims herein and we are going to call Izaia Ngema, who is the younger brother to the deceased and the wife to the deceased, Penduleni Ngema, who are present today. CHAIRPERSON Is this application opposed, Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA Yes, my instructions are to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) substantive issues. MR NYAWUZA Madam Chair, my instructions are to follow the proceedings and raise issues that will not be advanced by the applicants. If we feel that the applicants have complied with the requirements of the TRC, then we will withdraw our opposition to that. I've explained everything to the victims. CHAIRPERSON So you are on a watching brief? MR NYAWUZA Exactly. CHAIRPERSON And you will only oppose if your instructions at the end of the evidence of both Mr Benswana and Nqanda, is that there has not been compliance with the requirement of full disclosure. MR NYAWUZA That is so, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Madam Chair, I'm the Evidence Leader. Madam Chair, I've picked up this Section 19(4) notice, it's actually - this person was not summonsed or subpoenaed to appear before the Amnesty Committee today. I've worked through all the documentation and it seems that nowhere as far as I can see in the documentation or even in the documents that were used for preparation, this individual's came up. What I think has happened, this is a notice that was actually originally sent out during November of last year for another hearing at the JISS Centre. I didn't have the opportunity yet to speak to Mr Mhlambi, but the moment we have a break we'll speak to him because as far as I can see in this matter, Mr Mhlambi was only referred to in the killings of Mr - as an interested party in the killing of Ngema and the death of Mr Ntombela. So he was only notified as the interested party. Why exactly he was interested party during those times, I'm not quite sure. It seems for this hearing however, he was not notified but subsequently he was notified, but not from my side. He was notified for a previous hearing, but not for this one. But the confusion in that case, I've already asked for an analyst to enlighten me as well as to why he was informed for the previous hearing and why is he actually here today. There's no specific reason for him to be notified. Nowhere in the documents is there any reference to him whatsoever. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what you are saying in short, should we have Mr Mhlambi here being eminently represented by Ms Cambanis, or shouldn't we not have Mr Mhlambi appearing before this Committee at all in relation to this incident? ADV STEENKAMP Exactly, Madam Chair. It's very unclear for me as well why he was notified, even for the previous hearing, his name was never mentioned. I tried to clear it up with my learned colleague and she was also in the dark why he was notified as it is, as an interested party only. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Will you take the issue up with your office? ADV STEENKAMP I beg your pardon, Madam Chair? CHAIRPERSON Will you take the issue of Mhlambi up with your office, with regard to this Section 19(4) notice? ADV STEENKAMP Yes, Madam Chair, I'm already in the process of doing so, and I would like if there was any confusion or any difficulty for Mr Mhlambi, to apologise immediately without any due - for any inconvenience suffered by him or by his attorney. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Was Mr Sam Nqati notified, in terms of Section 19(4)? ADV STEENKAMP Madam Chair, all the other interested parties and implicated people were notified. I've checked this again with our Investigator who's responsible for this matter and our Analyst and all the relevant people were notified in this application, the only difficulty like I said, was the question of Mr Mhlambi, which I couldn't pick up anywhere in any documentation, any statements in our possession for the moment. I've tried to clear with the applicants whether or not they will probably be mentioning his name somewhere in the application, which is probably not contained in the application, but the indication was that they will not mention him at all. CHAIRPERSON Has Mr Sam Nqati been notified? ADV STEENKAMP Yes, he was notified, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Ms Cambanis, are you acting for Mr Nqati? MS CAMBANIS I'm not, we do not know his whereabouts. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And was Mr Johnson Sivella also notified in terms of Section 19(4), Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Sorry Madam Chair, I missed that for the moment, I couldn't hear properly. CHAIRPERSON Johnson Sivella. ADV STEENKAMP Johnson Sivella, Madam Chair, was notified. CHAIRPERSON Was he? ADV STEENKAMP He was notified, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON According to your records, when was he notified? ADV STEENKAMP Madam Chair, as far as I can see he was notified for the previous hearing as well as for this one during January. I've got a fax to that extent. I can't seem to find it now, but I've checked ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Of 2000? ADV STEENKAMP If you'll bear with me for a moment ... CHAIRPERSON January of 2000? ADV STEENKAMP Yes, yes, Madam Chair, the specific date I've - but it was during January of this year. It was during January, Madam Chair, if I'm not mistaken I remember the date, I think it was the beginning of January, the 4th of the 5th of January, but I'll come back to that in a moment. I just want to see where - if the Committee could bear with me. Madam Chair, I can confirm it was in January, the specific date I don't have with me, but it was definitely in January, the first week of January. CHAIRPERSON You will try and locate a Return of Service, and then bring it to our attention in due course. ADV STEENKAMP Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis, are you in a position to proceed with the evidence of one of your applicants? MS CAMBANIS I am, thank you, Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON Which applicant will commence these proceedings? MS CAMBANIS We will begin with applicant first-named, Mr Michael Benswana, but Honourable Chair, may I interrupt myself, there's further documentation which I wish to hand in at the outset. Copies of these have been given to the Evidence Leader and to the representative for the victims previously. These documents were in fact sent to the Cape Town offices, it seems as though they haven't been distributed to the Committee. They are handed in terms of Section 19 of the Act. The first document is that of Ms Skosana, who is an implicated - who's implicated by the applicants as the overall Commander of the Self Defence Units in that area. The second document is a "Further Particulars" made by the first applicant, Michael Benswana, in terms of Section 19. And the third document is a "Further Particulars" supplied by the second applicant in this matter. All the documents have been properly attested to. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS CAMBANIS Honourable Chair, I would like direction relating to the affidavit of Ms Skosana. Honourable Chair, you will see at paragraph 8 of that document that she says she has been informed of her right to attend the hearing and to be represented, she waives such rights and submits this statement in her absence. CHAIRPERSON She is an implicated person. MS CAMBANIS She is, she's the Commander, the overall Commander. CHAIRPERSON She has exercised her right not to appear before the Committee. MS CAMBANIS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON But will in fact make an affidavit. MS CAMBANIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON That's in terms of Section 19(4). MS CAMBANIS In terms of Section 19. The direction I need is whether it is necessary for me to read the contents of this affidavit into the record. As I say, copies have been distributed to the relevant parties previously and they have had sight of it, so I'm not sure if it's necessary to read it. CHAIRPERSON I think we'll have to number the documents that have been handed up. Maybe let's start with the affidavit of Mr Benswana and probably have that as Exhibit A and the affidavit Mr Nqanda as Exhibit B, the affidavit of Ms Skosana as Exhibit C. There is no need for you to read it into the record, we actually have it and it is part of the record. MS CAMBANIS Thank you. Then in that case I beg leave to call the applicant, Michael Benswana, who will give his evidence in Xhosa. MICHAEL BENSWANA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. You may proceed, Ms Cambanis. EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you. Mr Benswana, we have gone through your application which appears at page 1 to page 7 of the bundle, is that correct? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS At page 3 of your statement, at paragraph (b), in relation to that question you've answered "Ntombela was killed and Ngema was injured" At this stage do you have any further information regarding Mr Ngema? - since you made the application. MR BENSWANA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS What information do you have regarding Mr Ngema? MR BENSWANA All I can say is that on the 19th when Ngema died and Ntombela, they died because they were attacked by us, these two. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) Mr Benswana. Is he responding to your question, Ms Cambanis, because ...(intervention) MS CAMBANIS No, I'm simply trying to establish that he ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Because he seems to be giving evidence now of an affidavit that he has not yet confirmed. MS CAMBANIS Is it correct Sir, that you have now been informed that Mr Ngema in fact is deceased? MR BENSWANA That is correct, I was told that. MS CAMBANIS And after that you say "No property was damaged" Is that in fact correct? INTERPRETER There's an interruption in the booth, just give us a second please. CHAIRPERSON ...(no English interpretation) INTERPRETER Ms Cambanis, please repeat your question. MS CAMBANIS Mr Benswana, you say that no property was damaged during this incident, is that correct? MR BENSWANA Yes, there was no property damaged at that time, it was just windows that were damaged, they were broken. CHAIRPERSON ...(no English interpretation) MS CAMBANIS I just take them as a light issue comparing to burning down the building, of destroying it. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS CAMBANIS Mr Benswana, other than that we have gone through your application and do you confirm that the contents thereof is correct? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And at page 6, is this that I'm showing you now, your signature? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Mr Benswana, subsequent to that, is it correct that I consulted with you and took a further statement from you? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And a further document was drawn up, which I'm showing to you now, which is marked Exhibit A and you have been taken through the contents of that document together with the annexures, which consist - Madam Chair, unfortunately I got it back to front, I put this ANC Second Submission before the main submission. CHAIRPERSON And it's not numbered. MS CAMBANIS And it's not numbered. I apologise, Honourable Chair. I apologise, page 5, 6 and 7 of that is in fact from the original ANC statement to the TRC and should have come before page 4 and 5, which is from the second submission. CHAIRPERSON They are actually numbered right at the bottom, that's 63, 64 and 65 should have actually preceded page 30 and 31. MS CAMBANIS It should have, yes. Mr Benswana, is it correct that you have gone through page 1, 2 and 3 of your statement, as well as the annexures from the ANC Submissions to the TRC? Is that correct? MR BENSWANA That is correct, it's true. MS CAMBANIS And insofar as it concerns you, do you confirm that the contents of these Further Particulars are correct? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And you have signed on each page, do you confirm that that is in fact your signature? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Mr Benswana, do you - you've stated in your application that you did not receive any personal gain as a result of this attack, do you confirm this now to this Committee? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Chair, that is all, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nyawuza, do you have any questions to put to Mr Benswana? MR NYAWUZA Madam Chair, a few questions only. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Mr Benswana, on the night in question when Mr Ngema or the IFP, to put it more simpler terms, were attacked, how many were you? MR BENSWANA We were quite many. MR NYAWUZA Can you please give us an approximation, 20, 30, 500, 1000? MR BENSWANA We could have been 40 or so in number. MR NYAWUZA And who initiated this attack, who actually planned it? MR BENSWANA I initiated this because the main commander was not there during those days. MR NYAWUZA Meaning that you were second-in-command if the commander was not there. MR BENSWANA That is correct. MR NYAWUZA Mr Benswana, on page 63 of Exhibit A, there's a paragraph, a penultimate paragraph ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Page? MR NYAWUZA Page 63, Exhibit A. "The Soweto Civic Association ..." ... it starts with that. MR NYAWUZA I do not have that on my page 63, I have that as a "Verklaring van ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It's Exhibit A, your Exhibit A, that's under paragraph 6.2.9.1, dealing with "Community Self-Defence "Initiatives (Pre-1990)" MR NYAWUZA Sorry Chair, thank you. CHAIRPERSON You are obviously aware, Mr Nyawuza, that - oh, yes. MR NYAWUZA Thank you, Madam Chair. We're going to dwell more on that today, Mr Benswana. Mr Benswana, you state on page 5 of the bundle, at (b), that - "We all decided together sometime between the 6th and 19th of March 1994" What is it that you decided, did you decide to attack the hostel or what? MR BENSWANA Which date are you referring to? MR NYAWUZA On page 5 of the bundle - if his legal rep can refer him to that page please, 11(b) of the bundle, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NYAWUZA 11(b) "If so, state particulars of such order or approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and the address of the persons who gave such order" You state that - "We all decided together sometime between the 6th and 19th of March 1994" My question is, what did you decide to do on that day? MR BENSWANA We took a decision after the 6th, after ANC members were killed. MR NYAWUZA I want the decision that you took, what decision did you take? MR BENSWANA After having been attacked by the IFP on the 6th and they killed two members, we tried to counter-attack, but we could not succeed because the Stability Unit members were around the hostel area ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Benswana, I'm going to interrupt you. We don't want to have lengthy proceedings unnecessarily. I hope, Mr Nyawuza, there is also the reason why you asking this question because I take it that you've read the documents. MR NYAWUZA Yes, I have read the documents, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Including Exhibit A. Mr Benswana, what is being asked of you is a very simple question, very short, it requires a short response - what decision did you take on the 19th - between the 6th and the 19th of March 1994? We obviously are dealing with an attack here of Duduza hostel, so we don't want you to give us a very long history of what happened prior to you taking the decision, we want to find out the nature of the decision you took. You don't have to give us any background information. Do you understand? MR BENSWANA Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON Just give us the nature and the particulars of the decision you took between the 6th and the 19th of March, that's all. MR BENSWANA We took a decision - or rather, we gathered the Self Defence Unit's leaders and I told them that because the situation is ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Could I try and assist you. Did you take a decision to attack Duduza hostel? MR BENSWANA Okay. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, or no? MR BENSWANA Yes, we took the decision to attack. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Do you hear the question properly, Mr Benswana? MR BENSWANA Yes, I do understand the question. CHAIRPERSON But if you do, why you beat about the bush, why don't you just give us a precise answer, brief and to the point? MR BENSWANA We took a decision after the 6th and the decision was to attack the hostel. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NYAWUZA Madam Chair, if I were to address the Honourable Committee, there are some questions that I am going to ask to the applicants that are for the benefit of the victims. I heard Madam Chair saying haven't I read the documents, I have read documents Madam Chair, but I would wish the victims to get first-hand information from the applicants because initially I thought my learned fried was going to lead evidence on that, they were going to say whatever happened. So I'll have to extract the information from them for the benefit of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Let me consult my colleagues on that. MR NYAWUZA As it pleases. CHAIRPERSON Because you are aware that we are a very short-lived Committee and that's why we appreciate when counsel or when a legal representative comes before us and he or she has prepared a supplementary affidavit that deals with the issues that we at the end of the day have to consider and decide whether amnesty should be granted or refused. We appreciate and are very sensitive to the plight of the victims who come to these hearings to listen to what happened. We obviously however, are aware that such victims have as a right been given legal representation. The legal representatives are expected to explain to the victims the documents which are appearing before them, because if a witness has already confirmed an affidavit, there is no need to duplicate these proceedings by again re-gagitating (?) what is contained in the written documents before us. If we did that, this Committee would be here ad infinitum. MR NYAWUZA Madam Chair, as regards the explanation of the contents and the issue why we're here, everything has been explained to the victims, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Together with whatever is contained in the documents? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I read everything - I consulted with them this morning when they came, told them what we're here for, told them that if a, b and c are met, then they should know that d is going to follow and that and that. That has been explained to them, Madam Chair. So if this Committee rules in favour of us going through with the documents before us, the decision will bind me, the my clients will understand that this has been said. I will explain that further to them, that there was no need that we should duplicate the proceedings. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I really am bringing this to your attention without wanting to sound - and I never will be like that, I'm very sensitive to the plight of the victims, but one has to weigh that and balance that with the fact that this is a very short-lived Committee, we cannot allow a situation where we go back and re-visit that which has already been covered in the documents before us. We expect counsel of the legal representatives to assist us in that regard by explaining to the victims, because they obviously will not be on the same wavelength with these proceedings unless any documentary evidence is explained to them. And any documentary evidence that's before us need not form part of the viva voce evidence, otherwise we can sit here forever and not complete these proceedings. I hope I'm just clear with regard to that point, Mr Nyawuza. MR NYAWUZA Yes, you're clear, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON You can cover anything that you want to cover to satisfy your watching brief on the fact that the applicants have not complied with the requirement of full disclosure. MR NYAWUZA Mr Benswana, on the particular day when you attacked the said Duduza hostel, what is it in actual fact that you did? MR BENSWANA On that day when we attacked Duduza, I was leading the SDUs and accompanied by Mr Nqanda. On our arrival there at that hostel, Nqanda he took a round about route to the hostel and I entered the hostel and I tried to take them out and they come towards the Nali Section. Some came out and fought and firing at us, but we also managed to injure or hurt a few like Nomzana Ngema and some others that I do not know their names. JUDGE MOTATA What did you do, Mr Benswana? MR BENSWANA When they came out of the hostel I heard from inside that they had already gone out, therefore I went out and we caught Mr Ntombela and we fought with him and he was also fighting back, but ultimately we killed him. I was carrying a sword or a spear and I kept our(sic) stabbing as well and I was having a panga as well. After he died, Ntombela, we pursued the others. We saw Ngema and we tried to capture him so that he shouldn't be able to run away. We left him lying there at that spot ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Benswana, we want to find out the details of your particular involvement. You and not the rest are applying for amnesty. We simply want you to give us details of what role you played. You haven't said much about the role you played in the killing of Mr Ntombela, and neither have you really done anything much more to enlighten us of how you participated in the injuries sustained by Mr Ngema, because at that time you didn't know that Mr Ngema had died. So go back to Mr Ntombela and tell us what role you personally had in his killing, what is it that you did. JUDGE MOTATA And don't come with that "we fought" because they were defending themselves, we want to know what you did with the sword you had in your possession. MR BENSWANA The sword that I had I used it to stab and I also used the panga ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just commence with Mr Ntombela and tell us your involvement with Ntombela. What is it that you did, how you found Mr Ntombela, what ensued during the altercation. MR BENSWANA Okay. I'm trying to be brief ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You can go into detail in this issue because you are actually telling about your actual role. MR BENSWANA Thank you, because I was just being disturbed by ...(no further interpretation) What I did on my arrival at the hostel was to actually get them out of the hostel. They didn't use the doors, but they only came out through the windows. Some might have remained inside, but once the others left I went outside, once I heard that there's a lot outside already near the gate. And the others told me that there is a person that was sitting there, who was sitting near some shrub and I decided to go there and this man heard that I was coming and he decided to stand up ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Please take time because we are trying to interpret for you. MR BENSWANA When I arrived at that shrub where he was hiding behind or sitting next to it, he got up when he heard there was somebody approaching, and he had a sword. He was carrying two sharp objects, but I am not sure of the other object, but the one was definitely a sword and he tried to hit me. He was taller than me and I tried to block the weapon that he was using and the other SDUs arrived at that moment and we overwhelmed him and I hit him with the panga at the back of his neck. There were many of us at that moment. I also tried to use the sword, but because of the confusion due to the big group, the other group members they finished him off and he fell to the ground. CHAIRPERSON Before you proceed ... Did you hit him with the sharp side of the panga or the blunt side of the panga? MR BENSWANA I used the sharp side of the panga because my aim was to kill him. CHAIRPERSON And how many blows did you deliver at the back of his head with your panga? MR BENSWANA I hit him once and I could not hit him once more because the other group arrived and we all used sharp objects and there was a possibility of hurting each other in the process, as a group. CHAIRPERSON When you say "we all used sharp objects", you are referring to your usage of the panga and nothing else, you personally only used a panga. Because your earlier evidence is that you were unable to lend anything with your sword. MR BENSWANA I only used the panga, I could not use the sword. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BENSWANA The others beat him and he was left lying on the ground and we scouted to find the other people and we found ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The others, what did they do to him? MR BENSWANA Are you referring to Ntombela? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BENSWANA I didn't see anything else other than the fact that as soon as he lay on the ground I ran around to try and find the others. CHAIRPERSON Didn't they use any swords? Were there no further stabbings by the crowd on Ntombela, by means of swords or a sword? MR BENSWANA Yes, they stabbed him. We were many in number and it was at night, it was dark, but I don't know what kind of objects they had but we all had sharp objects. When I was going back to the hostel I heard that there was - they showed me another person before I entered the building, but that man was already on the ground. The other group members had already caught this person and they killed him. And I returned to the hostel ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What role did you have in the other person that you found lying down? Did you do anything? MR BENSWANA No, I did nothing to that person. CHAIRPERSON Now how did you establish that he had been killed by your comrades? MR BENSWANA I found him lying and I thought that he must have been dead. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BENSWANA I entered and we were trying to open the doors and they switched off the lights when they saw us approaching and the doors were locked. We tried to enter the hostel, but we could not succeed in doing that. ...(intervention) MR NYAWUZA Mr Benswana - if I were to interject, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Benswana, I've heard you giving us this, but on page 2 of your application - could you have a look at page 2, the last paragraph. "I stabbed a man called Ntombela, with my assegai because he came out of the window towards us." You didn't mention anything of hitting him with a panga, but then you go on and say - "I also hit some other people of Inkatha, with a home-made panga. They were hurt. One's surname was Ngema." So who did you stab and who did you hit with the panga now? MR BENSWANA I hit him with the panga because ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Who did you hit with the panga? MR BENSWANA Mr Ntombela. JUDGE DE JAGER Now why did you state here that you stabbed him with the assegai? MR BENSWANA Maybe it might have been a language confusion, but I had mentioned that - I did mention that I used a panga, but maybe the fact that I mentioned that I was carrying a sword might have led them to writing that I used a sword other than the panga. JUDGE DE JAGER And now you've told us you've done nothing to Ngema, but here you said you hit him with a panga. MS CAMBANIS No, he said that - no, he hasn't said that. CHAIRPERSON No, he has not yet come to Ngema. Yes, he hasn't yet given evidence about Ngema. But if you say it was a problem of communication, what do you mean? Who completed this application form for you? MR BENSWANA A lady called Rene Groenewald completed the application form for me, she took down the statement. CHAIRPERSON Who is Ms Groenewald? Is she a member of your political organisation? MR BENSWANA I do not know her, I don't know where is she affiliated. I didn't ask her, but she just said she's coming from the TRC, on her arrived there, therefore I did not enquire as to whether, to which political group does she belong to. But she just came from the TRC she said. CHAIRPERSON When you were consulting with Ms Cambanis, did you explain to her the role you had in the killing of Mr Ntombela? MR BENSWANA Yes, I did mention it to her, but when she read the statement to me I realised that some of the issues were quite not concurring. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Did you explain to her that some of the issues covered in your written application did not properly and appropriately accord with the incident as you recalled it? MR BENSWANA The issues like the broken windows I did mention, but they were not written down. But I did not know whether to go ahead and mention it here because she hinted that it was not written in my statement and I've just mentioned it. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyawuza, I think we interposed when you wanted to raise something, either with the Committee or with Mr Benswana. MR NYAWUZA Yes, I wanted to raise it with Mr Benswana. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may proceed and do that. MR NYAWUZA Mr Benswana, tell me, if we attend to the bundle from page 1 to 7 in your ...(indistinct), you said that you planned to attack IFP members at Duduza hostel, at 8, number 4, on page 2 of the bundle "We planned to attack IFP members at Duduza hostel because they chased SDU members away. We went at about 12 o'clock on the night of the 19th. Seven people died and I stabbed a man called Ntombela, with an assegai." When you made this statement to this Rene Groenewald, did she have an interpreter who was going to interpret it back to you - to her actually? MR BENSWANA Yes, there was a Sotho interpreter. MR NYAWUZA And the Sotho interpreter was between you and Rene, he would say what you say to Rene in either English or Afrikaans and say it back to you in Xhosa, is that so? MR BENSWANA Yes, he was sitting between us and interpreting for me, but that person is Sotho-speaking, he does not know Xhosa well. MR NYAWUZA So are you telling this Committee that you were actually not happy with his interpretation, is that so? MR BENSWANA Yes, some of the issues he got right, issues like I'm the one who planned the attack after the 6th. MR NYAWUZA Did you know Mr Ntombela before? MR BENSWANA Yes. MR NYAWUZA How did you know him, where did you know him from? MR BENSWANA We were staying with him at the hostel. MR NYAWUZA So you were a resident of the hostel prior to this attack, is that so? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MR NYAWUZA If I may assume facts, you were on the opposite sides of the political organisation, is that so? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MR NYAWUZA And you ended up being chased out of the hostel, is that so? MR BENSWANA That is correct. They attacked us and killed other people, therefore we started to run away. MR NYAWUZA Mr Benswana, they attacked you in the hostel, you and who? MR BENSWANA Yes, they attacked me. MR NYAWUZA So you left the hostel. MR BENSWANA That's correct. MR NYAWUZA Where did you stay after you had left the hostel? MR BENSWANA I stayed in the township. The ANC tried to find us accommodation, the Duduza branch. MR NYAWUZA Mr Benswana, all along during this - before this attack, were you a member of the SDUs? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MR NYAWUZA So how were you operating from the hostel, if you were a member of the SDUs? JUDGE MOTATA Wouldn't there be two - before you do, wouldn't there be two attacks? Let's just be precise in this instance. He was attacked whilst he was staying at the hostel and there was this attack again. So let's just get clarity as to which attack we're talking about. MR NYAWUZA What I want to get out of Mr Benswana is when was he attacked, he as a member of the opposite political party of the Inkatha, so until he left. Because I'm trying to get at when the SDUs were formed and he became part thereof. CHAIRPERSON The SDU formation was in the '80s. MR NYAWUZA When he joined. CHAIRPERSON And this incident happened in 1994. So you are interested in his joining the SDUs, because they'd long been in existence. MR NYAWUZA Exactly, exactly. No, that's ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Benswana, the question - I think what is being sought out of you is, when were you attacked when you were ultimately driven out of the hostel. MR BENSWANA We were attacked on the 4th. It was on a Friday ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON 4th of what? MR BENSWANA The 4th of March. CHAIRPERSON Yes. The attack that led to you leaving the hostel, that's the attack that Mr Nyawuza is referring to. The attack that led you to leave the hostel to seek refuge outside the hostel. MR BENSWANA It was on a Friday when ANC members who were residing at the hostels were attacked and on the Saturday we tried to invite the township committee to try and establish peace because some people were already in hospital, but nobody died in that incident. CHAIRPERSON When you were attacked on the 4th, was this the attack that led you to leaving the hostel and staying outside the hostel? MR BENSWANA No, I did not run away on the 4th. CHAIRPERSON When did you leave the hostel as result of you being attacked? MR BENSWANA I left the hostel on the 5th. I did not run away on the 4th, which was the day of the attack, I left on the 5th when I heard that I'm in the top list of the people who were being targeted. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and when did you become a member of the SDU? MR BENSWANA I joined the SDUs in 1993. CHAIRPERSON In the area around Duduza? MR BENSWANA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Nyawuza. MR NYAWUZA Mr Benswana, during your evidence-in-chief you stated that somebody got up from the bush, there was a ...(Xhosa) as you put it, who was that person? MR BENSWANA It's Mr Ntombela. MR NYAWUZA You only saw him at that time, is it so? Was it - during that attack - let's got back to the attack, was it only during that time that you saw him, during that attack? MR BENSWANA I knew him before, but I did not know that that is the person who was hiding behind the shrub. MR NYAWUZA Ja, that is what I'm saying. I'm saying, when he stood up it's only then that you saw that this was Ntombela, is that so? MR BENSWANA I saw him when he was approaching me although it was bit dark at that spot. MR NYAWUZA And the person you're referring to in your amnesty application on page 2, getting out of window, who was he? MR BENSWANA It's Mr Ntombela who got out through the window and hid behind the shrub. MR NYAWUZA But you didn't say so in your testimony, we had to get that out of you, why? MR BENSWANA MR BENSWANA When I tried to explain I am told that I'm wasting time, that is why I do not mention all the facts. MR NYAWUZA Mr Benswana, isn't it that you were attacking a hostel which is densely populated, isn't it so? MR BENSWANA That is correct. MR NYAWUZA For how long had you been a hostel resident? MR BENSWANA I might have stayed at the hostel from 1991 or 1992, because I was running a business there. MR NYAWUZA Can you approximate as to how many people were resident at this hostel? MR BENSWANA I cannot do that because there were two hostels. MR NYAWUZA In the hostel that you were resident. Approximately how many, 50, 100 or so? MR BENSWANA The hostel I was residing at there were not many people there because it has a school called Rose View and there were also family units, but the block was just a very small block where I stayed. MR NYAWUZA Was this the same block that you attacked on this particular day? MS CAMBANIS Honourable Chair, may I please ask the relevance of this? If my learned friend would read, has read the papers, he will see that the sequence of events - if he can just be specific about times. By the time this attack takes place my client has already told the Committee that the ANC and non-aligned people had already vacated, that the hostel at that time was being inhabited by IFP aligned members or supporters. So at which time - what is the relevance, that's what I'm asking, to go on about when he's - he fled the hostel because of attacks by the IFP. That's on the papers, and I'm not sure what the relevance of this line is. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Nyawuza. MR NYAWUZA As it pleases the Honourable Committee. Madam Chair, what I'm trying to get at here is, during his testimony we were advised that about three people came out and some were asleep, so I wanted to know as when ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON About what? MR NYAWUZA Are only a few people - only a few people during the attack on this night. There's this one who got out through the window and there's the other one that he found lying. I want to come as to how many people in essence, did they attack on that day. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I don't think there was ...(intervention) MS CAMBANIS Well he can only ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ... any specific evidence as to the number of people who came out. MR NYAWUZA I'm trying to get at that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. There was no mention certainly of three people coming out of that hostel. In fact the evidence is that he was trying to get people, he was trying to lure people out of the hostel and that people came out, they didn't use doors, they used windows to get out of the hostel. MR NYAWUZA Madam Chair, I'm getting to that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS CAMBANIS Honourable Chair, if that is the question, then I object. He's applying for his participation in the killing of Mr Ntombela and Mr Ngema, he can only give evidence about what he knows. Then the question should be "Who and how many people did you attack and what can you say about what your ...(inaudible)" ...(inaudible) ... what they did that night. Surely he can't have knowledge about what all the SDUs were doing in the hostel that night. CHAIRPERSON Isn't your question pertinently to the effect that how many people came out of the hostel during the attack? MR NYAWUZA Madam Chair, there's an affidavit by Tsele Skosana that refers to a certain Mr Mqati and this particular Mr Mqati, Tuseletso says on number 7, it's Exhibit C, Tuseletso says "I know of Mr Sam Mqati. He said he came from Polla Park to assist. I suspect that he had his own agenda." CHAIRPERSON Yes, what has that to do with the question you've just posed to Mr Benswana? MR NYAWUZA Madam Speaker ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm not Madam Speaker. MR NYAWUZA Madam Chair, what we want to establish here is whether this was really politically motivated ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think you must confine yourself to establishing exactly that. Then get to the question which is going to elicit that kind of information. If you want to know how many people came out of the hostel, what has that to do with you being able to determine whether this was politically motivated or not? MR NYAWUZA Mr Benswana, was Mr Mqati present during the attack? MR BENSWANA Yes, he was there. MR NYAWUZA Regarding the attack, Mr Benswana, you stated that you attacked Mr Ntombela in the bushes. Did you attack any second person? CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Ngema. That's the evidence before us. MR NYAWUZA Yes, Ma'am, and where and how did he attack him. I was coming to that aspect. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Let's just confine ourselves to what is sufficiently relevant. The question which is being put to you is firstly, where did you attack Mr Ngema? MR BENSWANA He was at a bar that was nearby the hostel. There was a group that was already holding him there because they saw him running. They were busy hitting him or beating him up and that's when I joined in and we left him lying there. CHAIRPERSON When you say you then joined in, we want to know what exactly did you do when you joined in, what role did you have in his assault. MR BENSWANA I used a panga on him. MR NYAWUZA Where did you hit him? MR BENSWANA I hit him on his back. He was facing the direction of the bar. MR NYAWUZA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp. ADV STEENKAMP No, thank you, Madam Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager. JUDGE DE JAGER At what stage did you use your sword, on who? MR BENSWANA I never used the sword, Sir. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you only hit with the panga? MR BENSWANA Yes, I mainly used the panga. It is very sharp. JUDGE DE JAGER And did you hit Mr Ntombela with the panga? MR BENSWANA That is so, Sir. JUDGE DE JAGER And you hit Mr Ngema with the panga. MR BENSWANA That is so, Sir. JUDGE DE JAGER Did you in fact notice that you've struck them and that you've injured them, both of them? MR BENSWANA Yes, I saw because I was hitting them with the intention of killing them. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Judge Motata? JUDGE MOTATA I've got nothing, Madam Chair, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Do you Tuseletso Skosana? MR BENSWANA Yes, she is my commander. MR NYAWUZA Where was he at the time of this incident? MR BENSWANA On that particular day or during that period he was not there. I have seen them in the past five days and I did report the fact that we are going to attack the hostel to him, or her, because he was not staying in Duduza at that time because he was working in the government and he was busy with the elections at that time. CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis, do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Yes. Mr Benswana, during the attack were you armed with both an assegai and a panga? MR BENSWANA That is correct, I was armed with both. MS CAMBANIS Do you remember exactly what you did with the assegai and the panga that night? MR BENSWANA I used the panga mainly, I was hitting with the panga. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, nothing further. That is the case for the first applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Benswana, you are excused as a witness. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I think this would be an appropriate time to have a lunch adjournment. ADV STEENKAMP Madam Chair, may I be so rude to interrupt. If possibly may I request, I've spoken to my learned colleague here, he's indicated to me that the second witness he's probably not going to ask any questions and I've got the position that one of the legal representatives in the Tsotetsi matter, it will be very difficult to come to the hearing tomorrow or so. If I may ask if this lunch can only be say for half-an-hour, if I may ask. CHAIRPERSON Yes, if it will not inconvenience the prisoners. ADV STEENKAMP Ja, obviously. CHAIRPERSON If they are able to eat in a relaxed fashion and also if the victims would also have sufficient time to have their meals. Not that I'm being uncompassionate to legal representatives, but I think the main consideration will be given to those two categories. Will that be sufficient for the victims and the prisoners? Ms Cambanis? Mr Nyawuza? MS CAMBANIS We have no objection. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA I don't have an objection as well, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Will that be sufficient for your clients? MS NYAWUZA Yes. ADV STEENKAMP Obviously, Madam Chair, if it will not inconvenience yourselves as well, obviously. CHAIRPERSON No, we never are inconvenienced, we can even have five minutes lunch. We then adjourn and reconvene at half past one. ADV STEENKAMP I thank you, Madam Chair. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis. MS CAMBANIS Thank you. I beg leave to call the second applicant who will also testify in Xhosa.