amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-02-01 UMTATA 2 HLUMELO MZWANE MKHULU MXUTU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54017&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200201um.htm CHAIRPERSON We want to start the proceedings. For the record, it is Tuesday the 1st of February 2000. We are continuing with the amnesty applications of S M Ntisana and others. The Panel is constituted as indicated on the record and the appearances are as have been indicated as well. Mr Dambuza, I believe that you had managed to get in touch with your outstanding clients. MS DAMBUZA It is so, Mr Chairman, and they are both ready to proceed. CHAIRPERSON They are here and you are able to proceed? MS DAMBUZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Who is the next one? MS DAMBUZA The next one is Mxutu, applicant number 3. CHAIRPERSON Number 3. Yes, thank you. MS DAMBUZA Mr Chairman, I call Hlumelo Mzwane Mkhulu Mxutu to the witness box. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Mr Mxutu, just indicate to us if your headset is working, can you hear the interpreters? MR MXUTU Yes. CHAIRPERSON I'm going to ask you to stand to take the oath. Can you give your full names for the record. HLUMELO MZWANE MKHULU MXUTU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may sit down. Ms Dambuza? MS DAMBUZA Mr Chairman, I would like to indicate that because of the problem of communications with the applicants, no affidavits were prepared for them and therefore I shall just lead them. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's in order, we understand the position. EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Mxutu, are you an applicant in terms of Sections 18 and 20 of Act 34/95? MR MXUTU That is correct. MS DAMBUZA And are you applying that this Committee grants you an amnesty? MR MXUTU Yes, that is correct. MS DAMBUZA Which acts are you actually requesting amnesty in respect of? MR MXUTU It's that I took part in the group that was planning the coup. MS DAMBUZA How did you become involved in this planning of the coup? MR MXUTU I was involved in the planning itself. MS DAMBUZA Were you employed at the time this happened? MR MXUTU I was a soldier in Ncise. MS DAMBUZA And what rank were you at the time? MR MXUTU I was a Warrant Officer. MS DAMBUZA Who approached you to become involved in the coup? MR MXUTU It was Mr Mazizi Ntisana. MS DAMBUZA And can you relate then to the Committee what happened after Mazizi Ntisana approached you. MR MXUTU Mr Ntisana came to me and he told me that Col Duli wanted to see us, it would be myself and him and Mzwamadoda Ntisana. MS DAMBUZA Did you then go and see Col Duli? MR MXUTU Yes, we went to Col Duli. MS DAMBUZA Where did you see him? MR MXUTU In Queenstown. MS DAMBUZA How did you get there? MR MXUTU There was a car from him that took us there. MS DAMBUZA What happened when you met Col Duli, what did he say to you? MR MXUTU Col Duli said that as we knew that Ms Stella Sigcau's government was overthrown by the soldiers and these soldiers said after six months it would change and then he said that that six months had elapsed, so he wanted us to do what had happened to the previous government. He wanted us to overthrow the military government so that the government can be returned to the people. We agreed. MS DAMBUZA Had you in fact been involved in the previous coup when the government of Ms Stella Sigcau was toppled? MR MXUTU Yes, I was involved. MS DAMBUZA What happened then after you agreed to participate in Col Duli's coup? MR MXUTU He told us to tell the soldiers of the special forces that they should be aware of what was going to happen. MS DAMBUZA Yes, and what happened then? MR MXUTU We indeed went to these soldiers and we told them, told certain soldiers. After that - this coup was supposed to be on the 15th of January, if I still remember well, but a day before we heard that this plan would not succeed so we decided to abort the coup and after that, on the 15th we went to work normally and then the 16th we were arrested. MS DAMBUZA And were you actually subsequently convicted and sentenced in respect of this deed? MR MXUTU Yes, I was sentenced. MS DAMBUZA To how many years? MR MXUTU 8 years, 4 years suspended. We served that sentence and then we were released after serving the sentence. MS DAMBUZA When were you released? MR MXUTU I think it was November or December 1994. MS DAMBUZA When Col Duli invited you to take part in this coup, did you foresee that there would be bloodshed or even loss of life? MR MXUTU It was not like that, he said that it would be like the previous one, the Ms Stella Sigcau one. MS DAMBUZA Are you now applying for amnesty in respect of the acts that you've outlined to the Committee just now? MR MXUTU Yes, that is correct. MS DAMBUZA Mr Chairman, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS DAMBUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Dambuza. Mr Nodada, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA One or two, Mr Chairman. Mr Mxutu, did Mr Ntisana actually tell you exactly what Col Duli wanted to see you in connection with? MR MXUTU No, he did not tell me, he said that we would get all the details from Col Duli. MR NODADA Did you ask him any questions when he first approached you? - that is Ntisana. MR MXUTU I asked him and then he said that he did not know why we were needed, but he said that because we were working for Col Duli before, maybe he wanted us to do something for him. MR NODADA And at that time you knew that Col Duli had just been released from detention in Port Elizabeth, isn't it so? MR MXUTU Yes, I knew. MR NODADA Right. Did you actually meet him in Queenstown or at Stutterheim? MR MXUTU In Queenstown. MR NODADA Did he actually give you the details of the modus operandi that was planned for the coup? MR MXUTU No, he did not give us details, he just said that on the 15th we had to wait for him, he would arrive. MR NODADA And was that the only meeting that you had with him before the 15th of January? MR MXUTU Yes, that was the only meeting whereby I was present. MR NODADA Are you aware of any other subsequent meetings that were held with him before the 15th? MR MXUTU There's only meeting I know, it was with him, Ntisana and Bongolani Ndamase. MR NODADA And you knew that when the coup was actually implemented, the soldiers that would be involved would be armed in order to overcome the opposition which was also made up of soldiers? MR MXUTU The way it was said there was not going to be any bloodshed, that's what I knew, as it happened with the previous coup. Because he said that most of the senior soldiers knew about it. MR NODADA And when you actually met Col Duli in Queenstown, did you ask him how the whole thing was going to be implemented? MR MXUTU I didn't ask him that way, we were just asking him how he's going to do this. He said that we must go and tell the soldiers of the special forces because they were not aware of this, so that there could not be any conflict. He said that the officers in Ncise were aware of this, so we must not be afraid or scared of anything. MR NODADA And what role were you going to play in this coup, you personally? MR MXUTU As I was his secretary before, I was going to be the one who was going to take the documents that were there. MR NODADA I see. Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Malan, have you got any questions? MR MALAN No thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Just one, Chairperson. When you met with Mr Duli in Queenstown, how many were you in that meeting? MR MXUTU There were five of us. MR MAPOMA Would you could who you were? MR MXUTU It was myself, Hhlumelo, Mzwamadoda Ntisana, Bongolani Ndamase, Zandisile Bongweni and Col Craig Duli. MR MAPOMA Where was Mr Mazizi Ntisana? MR MXUTU He went with another car and then he came back and told us what he told us. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Has the Panel got any questions? MR SIBANYONI You said "he told us what he told us", what did he say? What did Mazizi tell you? MR MXUTU Can you please repeat your question, Sir. MR SIBANYONI You said Mazizi went into another car and then thereafter he came back and "told us", I want to hear from you what did he say. MR MXUTU It was Col Craig Duli who was speaking to us, Mazizi Ntisana was not in that meeting, he was in another car. It was Col Duli who told us what he had told us. MR SIBANYONI Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Dambuza, any re-examination? MS DAMBUZA None, Mr Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes Mr Mxutu, you are excused, thank you. MR MXUTU Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes Ms Dambuza. MS DAMBUZA Mr Chairperson, I now call Zandisile Edwin Bongweni to the witness box. CHAIRPERSON Thank you.