amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-02-14 IDASA, PRETORIA 1 CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS DE KOCK 6 - ABDUCTION OF GLORY SEDIBE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54032&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200214pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Good afternoon everybody. Before we proceed, I just want to introduce myself for the purposes of the record. I'm Judge Pillay and I want to ask my colleagues and the various representatives to do the same, so that when the record is typed a certain form of identification can take place. ADV BOSMAN Advocate Francis Bosman of the Amnesty Committee. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I'm Judge Khampepe. MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is S W Hugo, I'm acting on behalf of Mr E A de Kock. MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. A T Lamey, I represent the applicants, Bosch, Fourie and Koole. MR PRINSLOO H J Prinsloo, Honourable Chairperson, I appear on behalf of Pienaar and Deetlefs. MS VAN DER WALT Louisa van der Walt and I appear on behalf of Schalk Jan Visser and Paul Jacobus van Dyk. MR LEOPENG Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am Leopeng P M, I'm appearing on behalf of the victims, the brother of the deceased and the wife of the deceased. MS PATEL Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Has there been any agreement as to the format and the order in which evidence shall be led? MR PRINSLOO That's correct, Mr Chairman, I will commence with the evidence of Deetlefs and thereafter I will be calling the applicant, Pienaar, Mr Chairman. So with your leave I will call the applicant, Deetlefs. CHAIRPERSON Mr Deetlefs, what language would you prefer to use? MR DEETLEFS Afrikaans, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Deetlefs, do you have any objection to taking the oath. CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. The application of the applicant appears in the volume, on page 111, and the contents of the application appears on page 114 and 115, and the political motive follows thereafter. Mr Deetlefs, you apply for amnesty with regard to the abduction from Swaziland of a person by the name of Glory Sedibe. MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And your application appears as it has already been indicated to the Committee, for this specific matter, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs, at the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Which matter do we refer to? MR PRINSLOO I shall put that to the Committee, but at this stage I will put it forward as abduction, assault and illegal crossing of the border and left Swaziland without going through the border post. CHAIRPERSON Illegal? MR PRINSLOO Illegal crossing of the border, Chairperson. VOORSITTER "Is dit al?" MR PRINSLOO And any delictual responsibility which might emanate from this. CHAIRPERSON But are these the criminal charges? MR PRINSLOO Yes. I say it as abduction, it might be kidnapping, but this would be the overhead one. Mr Deetlefs, can you recall the specific dates of these events? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson no, I cannot recall the specific date, according to my recollection it was during 1986. CHAIRPERSON Which month? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I think it was approximately June or July. I may be incorrect. It was more-or-less during that time. MR PRINSLOO And this incident, the incident of Mr Sedibe, did this take place a day before the event which is known as the Nerston matter? MNR DEETLEFS "Dit is korrek, Voorsitter". MR PRINSLOO Honourable Chairperson, I shall attempt to give a date to the Committee. Mr Deetlefs, during this incident were you the Branch Commander attached to the Security Police stationed at Ermelo? Is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO What was your rank at that stage? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I believe at that stage I was a Captain. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs, at that stage you were tasked with investigations and the gathering of intelligence in Swaziland and you were familiar with Swaziland. MR DEETLEFS That's correct. MR PRINSLOO Will you please tell the Honourable Committee how this aspect originated. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, on this particular day during 1986, it was a Wednesday, I paid a routine visit to Swaziland where amongst ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Legally or illegally? MR DEETLEFS It was legally I went through the border post. It was within the ambit of my normal working circumstances. I visited the Swaziland Police head office, where amongst others I held interviews with, at that stage, the chief of the Swaziland Intelligence Branch, as well as the Commissioner of Swaziland Police at that stage. And during these conversations I heard that the Swazi Police only the previous evening had apprehended one Glory Sedibe, a well-known ANC member of the ANC at that stage, amongst others because he had illegally entered Swaziland. I cannot recall whether they found any weapons on him and I am not certain about further charges against him. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs, at that stage was Glory Sedibe known to you or not? MR DEETLEFS He was. From intelligence sources we were aware that he was a senior member of the ANC in Swaziland. At that stage he was attached to the Transvaal machinery. He was one of the leadership figures there and we also had information that he was involved in giving commands for acts of terror in the RSA, as well as the infiltration of trained ANC cadres into the RSA at that stage. CHAIRPERSON In other words it would appear that he was high up in the MK structures. MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Was he also high up in the echelons in the Intelligence Services? MR DEETLEFS Yes, he was also involved in the Intelligence Services of the ANC. MR PRINSLOO You say that you met with the Swazi authorities, what happened then? MR DEETLEFS They told me that they held him at Mankanyane Police Station and that they would deport him to Zambia soon afterwards. At that stage I also had information that Mr Sedibe caused much unrest in Swaziland and that he was afraid for his life because he was so high up in the MK structures and he always awaited attacks from the RSA which would be launched against him. And that it why he was all - it was known that he never spent the night twice in the same place. He used to consume large volumes of liquor and this created the impression that if I could get in touch with him I might be able to convince him to cooperate with us. When I received this information that he was being held in the Mankanyane Police Station, I saw the possibility that we may remove him from there and bring him to the RSA, and I was convinced that we could convince him to be of assistance to us. I also knew that because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Before you continue, what made you think that you could convince him to do this? Here was a man that was highly placed in the structures, why did you think that without speaking to him before you brought him to the RSA, how would you decide that he could be convinced? MR DEETLEFS It was just a feeling that I had because I knew that he was uncomfortable in Swaziland and that is why I made the assumption. It is a chance one takes. One can never be certain. CHAIRPERSON As I understand your evidence thusfar you never met the man. MNR DEETLEFS "Nee, nee, nee". CHAIRPERSON And when you made the decision that you would convince him, you still had not spoken to him? MR DEETLEFS No, I did not, it was just an assumption that I made at that stage, incorrectly or correctly, but I thought there would be a possibility that we could convince him. At the same time I was also aware because of his stature in the ANC in Swaziland, that he would be an invaluable source of information to us. Because acts of terror and landmine incidents took place on a daily basis during that time and I believed that he could help us with information in that regard and he could supply us with information about ANC structures in Swaziland and the deployment of cadres in the RSA. And at the same time if we could remove him from the structures in Swaziland, I believed that it would be to the detriment of the ANC structures in Swaziland. The fact that he was held in Mankanyane Police Station also convinced me - it might be the incorrect word, but I then decided that since it was a quiet and remote police station I saw that there was the possibility of breaking him out from there against the possibility of him being at a bigger police station. Mankanyane was a remote police station and because of my knowledge of Swaziland and the Swaziland Police ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? MR DEETLEFS M-a-n-k-a-n-y-a-n-e. I was aware that the Swazi Police, specifically the uniform members never carried any handguns. They usually had one R4 rifle which was usually kept below the desk and members were instructed never to carry the weapon themselves, it was there for the protection of the police station. CHAIRPERSON Before you continue, there is something that concerns me. Did you at that stage decide that you would abduct him? MR DEETLEFS Yes, at that stage after I received the information. CHAIRPERSON Well you had good relations with the police in Swaziland, why did you not ask them "Listen, allow me to take this man away from here"? CHAIRPERSON Chairperson, I do not believe - I think the integrity of the Commissioner at that stage and the Chief of Security, I would not have taken that chance because I believed that they would have refused in the first instance and if something like this came out it would have caused an international scandal. They were people in senior positions and I do not believe that they would have become involved in something like this. I think they would have seen it as an embarrassment if I asked them, and that is why I did not ask them. CHAIRPERSON Very well, continue. MR PRINSLOO This police station, the one that you say in the evenings a rifle is held, one rifle is kept there, are there people in duty? MR DEETLEFS Usually there was only one person on duty, Chairperson, because they had a shortage of manpower and it was usually practice that the person would spend the night at the police station. After ten or so when it becomes quite, he would sleep at the police station and if someone visits the police station they would just knock him up. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs, after you received this information did you foresee the possibility of an abduction there at Mankanyane Police Station? Did you come into contact with anyone higher up than yourself? MR DEETLEFS I did, Chairperson, my Divisional Commander at that stage. My head office was in Middelburg in the Eastern Transvaal or Mpumalanga, I contacted Brig Visser and I informed him what my idea was, that that abduction would be of invaluable value to us and that we would have such an opportunity to acquire an information source of this calibre. He then told me to contact Mr Freek Pienaar of Piet Retief and Mr Paul van Dyk, because at that stage I knew that Mr Paul van Dyk was originally from Vlakplaas and was at Piet Retief and that the two of them and two or three askaris would be sent to Swaziland to meet with me there and then we will conduct the abduction. Brig Visser then eventually agreed that it would be worth our trouble because it was about the information which we urgently needed in order to combat these acts or terror in South Africa, and he then undertook to send these persons to me to assist me in Swaziland. Later that evening, Mr van Dyk, Mr Pienaar and Col de Kock and two or three askaris, I cannot recall who they were, they joined me in the hotel in Swaziland. I informed them what the circumstances were and that I did not foresee any trouble because there was only one person on duty there ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE But were you aware that there was only one person at Mankanyane Police Station? MR DEETLEFS At that stage I was not certain, but as I have said this was practice. I assumed that there would only be one person when we arrived there and if we arrived there and it was not the case, we would have to make some other plan. But at that stage I was reasonably certain, so I assumed that there would only be one person there. CHAIRPERSON Can you repeat who joined you that evening? MR DEETLEFS It was Mr Pienaar, Col de Kock, Mr van Dyk and then there were other members from Vlakplaas and I think Mr Nofomela was also there. I cannot place the other people's names. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Was Mr Nofomela one of the two askaris you earlier on referred to in your evidence? MR DEETLEFS Yes, I do speak under correction but if I recall correctly, Mr Nofomela was one of the askaris. MR PRINSLOO Do you remember a person by the name of Mngade? MR DEETLEFS No, Chairperson, it's possible. I did not know the askaris that well. MR PRINSLOO Please continue. MR DEETLEFS After I informed them about the circumstances we later that evening - I cannot recall the exact time, but it was probably after twelve, we drove to Mankanyane. And the plan was that the white members would wait away from the police station and that the askaris would attempt to enter the police station and to overpower the police officer on duty. It was also my instruction that under no circumstances would shots be fired because I did not want anyone to be injured. CHAIRPERSON What would have happened if the policeman on duty there was not sleeping and had his firearm in his hands? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, no, I knew that they did not carry any handguns, that was against their regulations. CHAIRPERSON That was practice. MNR DEETLEFS "Ja". CHAIRPERSON But on this day, could it have been that he might have had a firearm? What would have happened, would you have just walked away? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is why we first sent the askaris - when I say quite a ways from there, it was dark, I would say about 50 or 60 metres away from the police station where we waited, and then they had to go in, have a look and depending on the circumstances, if it appeared that there would be more people, we would just have to withdraw. But we did not want to enter into any armed confrontation with them. I cannot recall, but some of the askaris did go before I arrived there. It was also the idea why the whites did not go in immediately with this abduction, we wanted to try to create the impression that it was possibly ANC cadres, in other words Mr Sedibe's own cohorts who abducted him, so the finger would not point back to South Africa. Some of the askaris then did go to the police station, but the door to the police station was locked. They apparently peeped through a window and saw that the one person, the policeman, was inside. They came back and said that they could not gain entry, upon which Mr de Kock went closer along with them. We also approached. Mr de Kock went to a window, I cannot say how he gained entry, whether the window was open or whether he broke the window, but he succeeded in gaining entry and overpowered the police officer inside. This police officer acted against procedure and he had the firearm with him which had to be underneath the desk and he was apparently readying himself to go to sleep for the night. Mr de Kock convinced him to leave the firearm and to cooperate. They then thereafter opened the door of the charge office and we went inside. One of us, I cannot recall whom, called the name September upon which Mr Sedibe answered from his cell. We unlocked the cell and went inside, where we found him on a mattress amongst some other detainees. We took him outside where Mr van Dyk and the other askaris accompanied him to a vehicle and at the vehicle he resisted vehemently. He kicked at Mr van Dyk and there was a tremendous struggle and it took quite a few of us to bring him under control. He was put in the back of the vehicle, it was a station-wagon or a 4X4. He was forced into the back of the vehicle. Then we left the police station. Mr de Kock cut the telephone lines if I recall correctly, and then we all departed for the border. On our way, Mr Sedibe struggled again the back of the vehicle, but I amongst ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON At this stage you must have realised that the impression that you wanted to create that the ANC had taken the man, was no longer viable. MR DEETLEFS That is so, Chairperson, but at that stage it was done. We had to make the best of a bad case and we had to continue. CHAIRPERSON Did you still think that you could convince him? MR DEETLEFS Yes. CHAIRPERSON In spite of the fact that he fought back? MR DEETLEFS Yes, Chairperson, because I think at that stage - I do not believe that he knew what was happening, I think he might have been under the impression that we wanted to eliminate him and there was no time at that stage to speak to him to tell him that nothing was to happen to him. CHAIRPERSON It was a possibility? MR DEETLEFS Yes, but as I've said, on the way he struggled again, we aimed our firearms at him and convinced him to be quiet and then we illegally crossed the border from Swaziland close to the Nerston border post and we came into the RSA. On the RSA side we met with Mr Visser ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE May I interpose? Mr Deetlefs before you leave the struggle that ensued, whilst you were attempting to put Mr Sedibe into the car, what did you do, did you use any force? MNR DEETLEFS "Om mnr Sedibe in die voertuig te plaas"? JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. MR DEETLEFS Yes, he struggled vehemently against Mr van Dyk and the other askaris there and the rest of us arrived there and we forced him. If I remember correctly, it later was apparent that he had received a blow across his nose. He might have had some other injuries which I did not observe, but as I have said, he was violently pushed into the back of the vehicle, he did not go willingly. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs, on this point, Mr Sedibe was a large and a strong man. MR DEETLEFS Yes, he was a well-built man. CHAIRPERSON Mr Deetlefs, there are some things I do not understand, please assist me. Your group abducts this man in the hope that you can convince him to become an askari, let us say in order to assist you and to supply you with information and one of two things can happen, he can say yes or he can say no, if he had said yes and then you'd go along with that. What did you think before you abducted him, if he said no, what would happen to him? MR DEETLEFS Then we would have probably gone through the legal process, Chairperson. As I have said, at that stage we did not seriously consider that possibility. The only thing I can say with myself and I believe with Mr Visser, with the Sedibe matter there was no talk of eliminating him, we would have probably detained him in accordance with Section 29 and taken the process from there. And if we had to take him back to Swaziland, that would have happened, but I did believe that during this time we will be able to convince him. CHAIRPERSON Has it ever happened that you had abducted people and taken them back? - before then. MR DEETLEFS Not with myself, I only speak of reports here and I know Mr Dirk Coetzee - this was long before this incident, and askaris had abducted a man, I think his name was Joe Pillay, and he was detained on this side but there was some political pressure and the person had to be returned to Swaziland later. CHAIRPERSON But not under mysterious circumstances. MR DEETLEFS He was abducted under mysterious circumstances. CHAIRPERSON But when he was taken back? MR DEETLEFS As far as I am aware, he was also taken back under mysterious circumstances, but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Officially? MR DEETLEFS No, everyone at that stage knew that the man was abducted to this side, but spare us the embarrassment the man was also taken back illegally across the border. CHAIRPERSON Please continue. MR DEETLEFS I've said that I don't have complete knowledge regarding that case, but I know that there was such a case that this man had to be returned. Chairperson, on this side we joined Mr Visser, we went to Piet Retief ...(intervention) MR PRINSLOO Would that be the Nerston vicinity? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. We went to Piet Retief to a safehouse or a safe premises which the Security Branch was running at that stage ...(intervention) MR PRINSLOO Where was this premises located? MR DEETLEFS Just outside Piet Retief, on the Amsterdam road. CHAIRPERSON Was it a building? MR DEETLEFS Yes, it was some form of an apartment on a farm. CHAIRPERSON Just tell me, I want to know something, it might not have anything to do with this matter, but I know of funds which were made available for farmers should they have experienced a bad year. With regard to the farms that the police had, did they also enjoy those funds? MR DEETLEFS No, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR DEETLEFS No, I don't know anything about that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Deetlefs, was this the farm that was used by members of Vlakplaas whilst they were in the Piet Retief area and its surroundings? MR DEETLEFS I don't believe that this particular premises was used, as far as my memory goes. MR PRINSLOO You have just said that it was on the Amsterdam road, where is this in terms of the Ermelo road? MR DEETLEFS When I refer to Amsterdam, I refer to the road which splits later, leading in the direction of Ermelo and Amsterdam respectively. It was on that road. MR PRINSLOO Was it near Piet Retief? MR DEETLEFS Yes, it was approximately 5 kilometres away from Piet Retief. MR PRINSLOO Five kilometres? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Very well, please proceed. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, we began talking to Mr Sedibe there. We could not conduct a thorough interrogation at that stage because we were quite exhausted after having spent most of the night awake, but we spoke to him and it became clear quite swiftly that I was correct in my assumption that he would be able to assist us, because he began to provide information quite quickly and it became clear after we had convinced him that we were not intending to do him any further harm, that he would definitely not be murdered but that we merely required his assistance. Based upon that he began to talk to us as well. And from that point forward ultimately, Mr Pienaar took over the handling of Mr Sedibe. He provided us invaluable information which was of great assistance to the Security Branch at that stage. And indeed, he gradually did become a member of the Security Branch. MR PRINSLOO Is it correct that there was a lengthy trial of the State against Maseko and that you testified during this trial? MR DEETLEFS I wasn't at this trial myself, but I heard that he testified during this trial. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Deetlefs - may I interpose, Mr Prinsloo? When you allege that you began talking to Mr Sedibe and it quickly became apparent that you were correct in your assumption that he could be of great value to you as the police, in helping you against the ANC, do you mean when you "talk", do you mean interrogate? MR DEETLEFS Yes, I suppose one could call this interrogation, although it wasn't really interrogation. But I must add hastily that there was no violence because everything was aimed at getting him so far as to the point that he would assist us and the application of violence would definitely not have persuaded him to assist us. We wanted him to assist us on a voluntary level. We did give him a drink. He was quite a heavy drinker and it wasn't very long thereafter that his tongue loosened and we were all getting along quite well with each other. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So at no stage did you use any kind of violence whilst talking to him to persuade him to become an informer. MR DEETLEFS No, the only violence which was applied was with his seizure at the police station and along the road as we undertook our journey, but definitely not at Piet Retief, not while we were questioning him, he was not assaulted. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. MR PRINSLOO Thank you. Mr Deetlefs, after he was brought to the farm at Piet Retief and after you spoke to him, were you quite closely involved with him in terms of interviews and interrogations, or what was the position? MR DEETLEFS From time to time I was involved, I was not continuously involved because I was stationed at Ermelo and I left him to Mr Pienaar, who then dealt with him on a daily basis. Mr Sedibe had free access. Although we applied for a Section 29 detention, it was merely to prepare the books so to speak. But otherwise Mr Sedibe was actually a free man and he operated freely with the Piet Retief people. Mr Pienaar assumed control of the interrogation, but from time to time I did go to Piet Retief and from time to time he came with to Ermelo and we had lengthy discussions. We worked thought documentation which was made available to us and evaluated these documents. So from time to time I did work quite closely with him. MR PRINSLOO Very well. And later, was he applied as an askari? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO At any stage that you know of while he was there in Piet Retief, are you aware of any assault? MR DEETLEFS No, I don't know anything about that. MR PRINSLOO You have already stated that he was of immeasurable value to you and that it was your initial intention to seize him with the objective of obtaining information from him. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And during that period you were also involved in investigations which took place in the Eastern Transvaal, as it was then known, which preceded this seizure, investigations that had to do with landmine explosions in the Eastern Transvaal. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And the Transvaal machinery was responsible for these incidents. MR DEETLEFS That's correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Deetlefs, did you at any stage as a result of any sense of vengeance or personal benefit or any other reason, seize this person, Mr Sedibe, from the police station? MR DEETLEFS No, not at all. MR PRINSLOO Did you do this as part of the execution of your official, express or implied duties? This seizure of the person and the investigation which was conducted by the Security Branch that you were a member of? MR DEETLEFS Yes, I believed that it was a matter of national interest at that stage. MR PRINSLOO Did you have any other personal motive for your involvement in this at that stage? MR DEETLEFS No, none. MR PRINSLOO And as it turned out you benefited from it, the country benefited from it. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct, he provided us with information which we could act upon. MR PRINSLOO Please continue, I beg your pardon. MR DEETLEFS He provided names and I might also add here that in discussions held with Mr Matthews Phosa many years later, he mentioned to me that this abduction was a tremendous blow to them. He was at that stage involved with a structure in Mozambique and he personally told me that although everything had not run smoothly at the police station, and we had to enter the premises, it created confusion and they believed for quite some time that it had been their own people who had released Sedibe. So even to that extent we had succeeded in our objective and we managed to disrupt their structures for quite some time. MR PRINSLOO Was Brig Schoon involved in any discussions or negotiations to release this person? MR DEETLEFS No, not that I know of. I did not inform him myself and as far as I know, he did not have any prior knowledge of this. MR PRINSLOO Do you request the Amnesty Committee to grant you amnesty on a charge of abduction, assault and the illegal crossing of the border between the Republic of South Africa and Swaziland, or any other charges which may emanate from this matter? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO As well as any delictual accountability which may emanate from this matter? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And you also confirm your application as it appears within the bundle. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And it has also been submitted, Annexure A, the amnesty application that you have been made aware of. It has been compiled by Adv Visser and Mr Wagener. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Deetlefs, you testified that when you liaised with Brig Visser you amongst others, requested the assistance of Freek Pienaar and Paul van Dyk, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. MR HUGO Paul van Dyk was attached to Vlakplaas at that stage. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR HUGO What was your perception as to what he busied himself with during that time? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, it was about the tracing of terrorism. They moved along the borders and the askaris because they were former MK members, went to the border posts and see if they could do any identifications and they were also of assistance during the normal course of duties of the South African Security Branch. MR HUGO Would it be correct to say that Vlakplaas members such as Mr van Dyk, were applied for clandestine operations? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR HUGO The commander, operationally speaking, of this operation in Swaziland, Mr de Kock says was himself, he was senior in rank there. MR DEETLEFS Yes, Chairperson, he did work in that manner because I - the are itself including Swaziland, because Swaziland resorted under my command for purposes of intelligence, but for the operation itself because Mr de Kock because of his expertise with these operations it was generally accepted with regard to the execution of the operation, that I would not trouble myself there and he would take command of the operation. MR HUGO And then everyone, including Mr de Kock, were all under the overhead command of Brig Visser. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR HUGO What is your recollection, what firearms did you take along with you? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I can really not recall. I know that I was issued with P38 pistol with a silencer. I cannot recall what the other members were armed with. MR HUGO And then a final aspect. You say that Mr Sedibe was relatively free to move as he felt. I accept that was not like that from the beginning. MR DEETLEFS Yes, when I say move around freely, he could not walk around town, he was always accompanied by a member of the Security Branch, but he had freedom of movement, he was not detained in the cells all the time. That is what I meant by that. MR HUGO I will tell you why I ask that of you, it is because Mr de Kock's recollection is that Mr Sedibe was cuffed to a bed initially. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is when we arrived here for the first time. MR HUGO And it would appears from Mr Fourie's application the same. MNR DEETLEFS "Ja, dit is so". MR HUGO Thank you, no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Deetlefs, I would just like to arrive at the position of Mr Fourie. Were you aware that he at that stage also worked in the area, but as a member of Unit C2, is that correct, who resorted under the command of Col Martin Naude? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I cannot recall right now whether he had already been there, but I know the following day after we brought out Mr Sedibe, he arrived at the house. So I would not like to state it as fact, but I would recall that he was there with some or other action in Piet Retief. MR LAMEY Are you aware that the members of C2 - they were attached to head office, specifically undertook interrogations of detainees by means of photo albums in order to identify other insurgents and MK members in order to trace their movements? MR DEETLEFS That's correct, yes. MR LAMEY Then just another aspect. In the police station there in Swaziland, do you recall how many cells there were in the police station? MR DEETLEFS This is a long time ago, Chairperson, it may have been two to three at the most. MR LAMEY Do you know what happened to the other detainees who were in the cell with Sedibe? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, after we left we left the cell door open and some of them escaped while we were there. Later I understood that they had all returned. But the cell door was left open and they also ran away when we took Sedibe out. MR LAMEY Yes, those are also my instructions from Mr Koole, that the other inmates ran away into the darkness. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAMEY Very well. He states indeed that Mr de Kock apparently told the other inmates that they were free to go. MR DEETLEFS It is possible, but I cannot really recall. MR LAMEY Then just another minor aspect. When you said that you called out the name of Sedibe in the police station ...(intervention) MR DEETLEFS That is correct. MR LAMEY ... did he respond? MR DEETLEFS Yes. MR LAMEY Mr Koole's recollection in his written application, indicates that he is not one hundred percent certain about it, but that he thinks Mr Pienaar stated that he recognised Mr Sedibe. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, no, I cannot recall that. As I have stated, we called out the name because we were not certain in which cell he was being held and we called out his name, he responded and as a result of his response we went directly to him. MR LAMEY Did you have any photographs of Mr Sedibe, in order to identify him should you see him? MR DEETLEFS We did not have such photos on us at that stage. As I've stated, we arrived in Swaziland quite spontaneously, later in the office we could use photographs to identify him, but it wasn't always a very reliable method because these photos had been taken some years before. MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LEOPENG What was your major role in being placed in Swaziland at that time? MR DEETLEFS I beg you pardon, could you repeat. MR LEOPENG Your role? MR DEETLEFS My major role was because I was connected to the Security Branch in Ermelo, Swaziland resorted under me as an area and our function among others, was to collect information regarding among others, the ANC and its activities in Swaziland. So it was a role pertaining to the collection of intelligence. MR LEOPENG In your evidence-in-chief you said you had some discussions with the Chief of the Police and Commissioner of Police, prior to the abduction of Mr Sedibe, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, Chairperson. MR LEOPENG Were you told of the arrest of Mr Sedibe before you could even approach the Commissioner of Police? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, upon my arrival in Swaziland, I first went to the office of the Head of the Swaziland Intelligence Branch and he informed me of the arrest. Subsequently I paid an etiquette visit to the Commissioner, they were situation in the same building. That would have been the regular procedure to maintain good relations, that is why I liaised with him when I went to Swaziland. MR LEOPENG Was there any financial dealings with the Commissioner of the Police and the South African Government in respect of the activities of the MK cadres in Swaziland? MR DEETLEFS No, not at all. MR LEOPENG Did the Commissioner of Police voluntarily tell you about the arrest of Mr Sedibe, or is it because you wanted to know more about this Mr Sedibe because he was so important that you wanted him to assist you in the South African hit-squads? MR DEETLEFS No, Chairperson, as I have already stated, the first person who informed me of the arrest was the Head of the Swaziland Intelligence Branch. CHAIRPERSON In other words, did you coincidentally come to hear of this person or did you go to Swaziland with the intention of arresting this man or finding out more about this man? MR DEETLEFS No, perhaps I should explain it as follows. On a continuous basis, sometimes three times a week I moved to Swaziland. We handled intelligence sources there and I made a point of it at least once a week in terms of the maintenance of good relations with the Swaziland Government, I visited the Commissioner of Police and the Head of the Intelligence Branch. I think that they suspected that we were also handling other intelligence sources and in order to pacify them, I maintained a healthy liaison with them. I must also mention - and this will perhaps add more perspective, there were continuous threats from the South African side. If we look at the statements made by the government or the members of the former government, as well as the members of the Security Forces, that with attacks or with people who were operating in neighbouring States, action would be taken against neighbouring States, counter-operations would be executed. So Swaziland was quite closely related to South Africa, economically particularly. At that stage they didn't have any ties with Mozambique, they were entirely dependant upon us and on the basis thereof, from their side they always tried to satisfy us. And to avoid these operations, they would act against the ANC and they very swiftly would inform us that they had acted against these persons and that this was to prevent any kind of action against them from the South African side. That is why there was a voluntary exchange of information on a regular basis, or whenever I would visit them in Swaziland. Therefore it wasn't necessary for me to fish for anything, the moment that we entered into any discussion I was informed that Sedibe had been arrested. I hope that answers your question. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Just to try and shorten your very long response to Mr Leopeng's question, it was not so much in the interest of good relations that you obtained this information, you were a person who was gathering information and you exchanged information from the RSA side, with the Swazi Intelligence Unit, inasmuch as the vice versa occurred, is it not so? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct, we exchanged information on a regular basis. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And it was during the exchange of such information that the Head of the Intelligence Unit informed you of the apprehension of Mr Sedibe. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Leopeng. MR LEOPENG Thank you, Madam. This head of the Intelligence Unit in Swaziland, was a South African who was based in Swaziland or was he a Swaziland citizen who was working for the Swaziland Government? MR DEETLEFS He was a subject of Swaziland. MR LEOPENG Was he working for the Swaziland Government on intelligence basis? MR DEETLEFS That is correct, he was a member of the Swaziland Police. CHAIRPERSON Why did the ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE Do you have his name, Mr Deetlefs? MR DEETLEFS At that stage, if I recall correctly, his name was Mr Francis Mapelala. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And was he also based at the headquarters of the Swaziland Police? MR DEETLEFS That is correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE In Mbabane? MR DEETLEFS Yes, in Mbabane. MR LEOPENG Thank you. As I understand your evidence and your answers, the Swaziland Government was opposed to the ANC activities in Swaziland, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, yes, in the sense that they had an agreement with the ANC that they had a permanent representative there. There were many refugees in the country. But there was an agreement that ANC cadres could not use Swazi territory to launch attacks on the Republic of South Africa because this would place Swaziland in a precarious position with the South African Government. MR LEOPENG But at the same breath the same Swaziland Government accommodated these ANC cadres in Swaziland, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS They did not armed cadres - they constantly acted against MK cadres, usually arrested them with firearms or because they entered the country illegally. So they did not obviously allow cadres there but they bona fide allowed ANC members there. MR LEOPENG In other words the Swaziland Government played a double-standard, they at the same time accommodated the ANC members and at the same time liaised with you to abduct such ANC who were accommodated in Swaziland. MR DEETLEFS No, there was never any liaison to abduct any ANC cadre, it was never mentioned, they were never involved. I said that they acted against ANC cadres, but they did allow bona fide ANC members or representatives who officially entered the country, they did accommodate them. But usually the ANC cadres, trained MK people usually entered the country illegally from Mozambique and in most cases the Swazi authorities acted against them because they were afraid that they would infiltrate the country from Swaziland and that a finger would be pointed at them. MR LEOPENG At that time did the South African Government have dealings of extradition with the Swaziland Government, for political refugees who left the country illegally? - who left South Africa illegally. MR DEETLEFS No, there was none, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why was it now necessary for the Head of the Intelligence Unit to inform you about the activities of the MK cadres in Swaziland? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, as I have already said, they did on a regular basis with each arrest that they executed because they were afraid that if they did not act, then from the South African side it would be acted against Swaziland and that is why always they were enthusiastic to show the South African Government that from their side they were doing something to prevent the ANC from using Swaziland as a springboard for attacks against the RSA. MR LEOPENG Further, in your evidence-in-chief you said the Commissioner of Police and the Head of the Intelligence Unit informed you where Mr Sedibe was kept, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS That's correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Deetlefs, when Mr Sedibe co-operated with you eventually did you create the impression that he was a free person and that he could go where he wished and that he could also testify in cases later? What of his family? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I think Mr de Kock will possibly testify about that later. I know that his wife and children were brought to the RSA later. I was not involved with that, so I cannot enlighten you about that. But I know that they were brought to the RSA and accommodation was supplied to them. CHAIRPERSON So you had knowledge of his position with regard to the South African Police? MR DEETLEFS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LEOPENG Thank you, Mr Chairman. My question was, the Commissioner of Police and the Head of the Intelligence Unit informed you of where Mr Sedibe was kept. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR LEOPENG Were the two also aware of your intentions to go and abduct Mr Sedibe from ...(indistinct) MR DEETLEFS No, not at all, Chairperson. As I have said, I would not have approached them in this regard. MR LEOPENG Now when you approached this police station, how many police officials were at that police station? MR DEETLEFS There was only the one, Chairperson, and if I recall correctly there was a young man but he was a student at that stage, so he was not a policeman at that stage. MR LEOPENG Is this the same person you said he was armed with a G3? MR DEETLEFS Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR LEOPENG Why do you say he was a student if he was armed with a G3 to guard the police station? MR PRINSLOO I think there's a misunderstanding, Mr Chairman, with respect. The witness said there was - besides the one person, there was also a student. He's not saying that the student was armed. MR LEOPENG Now let's now deal with the issues of the forcible removal of abduction of Mr Sedibe. You said in your evidence-in-chief that except for the blow on his nose, you can't recall having observed any bruises on his face, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS It was a long time ago, Chairperson, what I specifically remember was that he had a blow across his nose. He may have in the struggle, because as I have said he resisted vehemently, he may have bruised upon his body but he never complained of any serious injuries, so I do not believe that there were any serious injuries. He might have been bruised and somewhat injured because he was clothed and I did not see any injuries to his body. MR LEOPENG That is in reference to the abduction. Now let's talk about being abducted, kept in a house in a farm. Don't you remember seeing him being assaulted by one of your colleagues? MR DEETLEFS No, Chairperson. As I have said, Mr September was a very intelligent person, he was a finely educated person as well and as I've said it was very quickly after we spoke to him and we explained to him that there was no danger to him any longer, he gave his co-operation and it was definitely not necessary to assault him. And from my side I would not have allowed it that anyone assaulted him any further. ADV BOSMAN Mr Deetlefs, if I may just enter here. How could you be so sure that he had turned within such a short period of time? MR DEETLEFS At that stage one could not be one hundred percent certain. I would not say that as from that time you would send him in on his own, but he immediately supplied names and told us about the structures in Swaziland, so one got the feeling of coercion or co-operation. It was only at that stage that I felt that we would reach something with him. ADV BOSMAN Did you have any reason why he so easily co-operated with you, given his position in the ANC? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, at that stage what I learnt from later discussions with him was that at that stage I think he - the English word is "disillusioned", he never diverted from ANC principles but he questioned their methods. At that stage - as I have said this was from later discussions, he mentioned that he questioned the methods which were applied and at that stage he was in favour of negotiations with the South African Government. So I think from that point he was before his time, or ahead of his time. JUDGE KHAMPEPE ...(indistinct - no microphone) INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on) JUDGE KHAMPEPE Sorry, sorry about that. You have however in your evidence repeatedly ascribed his quick co-operation with you and your members to his intelligence. MR DEETLEFS Certainly intelligence, he was intelligent and this might have counted towards that as I have said, which appeared later that he himself have some protests about the armed struggle if that was the right word we could use, but we would never know why he immediately co-operated with us. But the fact remains we immediately worked together and he did grant us his co-operation. CHAIRPERSON Did he tell you that he questioned the struggle and that he wanted the ANC to negotiate and speak to the government at that stage? MR DEETLEFS No, this was quite a long while after this. After we were at Vlakplaas he regularly visited Ermelo and it was during one of those discussions long after this incident that he mentioned it to me, that he was always a supporter of the principles of the ANC, but the methods were questioned by him. CHAIRPERSON Did you not ask him "If you question it, why were you training people? Why did you gather intelligence for the ANC? Why did you train the people who were furthering the struggle?" MR DEETLEFS No, Chairperson, I did not but I assumed that it was the same case as the others, he was under instruction and he did what was expected from him. I think that was the case with him. And I think sometimes I gained the impression that it was a relief to him to be here on this side and be free of the struggle in Swaziland. That was my impression. MR LEOPENG I'm taking the questions of the Panel further. Isn't it correct that at the time of his abduction he was still a loyal member of the MK? MR DEETLEFS Yes, when he was abducted he was still a member of MK. MR LEOPENG That is why he had to resist your abduction, he had to fight with you before you could even abduct him, you succeeded in abducting him. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, yes, that may have been one of the reasons, but I believe at that stage that we - he believed that we were there to eliminate him at that stage. MR LEOPENG But the disillusion that you are talking about, if there was disillusion he could not have resisted it, isn't it? MR DEETLEFS I don't know, I cannot say. I do not think that it was only because he was an MK member, but I believed that we would hurt him. And that is what he thought at that stage in his mind. MR LEOPENG Well one of the reasons that you said why you wanted to abduct him is that you ranked him as a high official of the MK and you wanted him to come to assist you, is it so? MR DEETLEFS That's correct. MR LEOPENG You never wanted him because there was a possibility of disillusion or that he defected from the organisation. MR DEETLEFS No, at that stage I did not know what his feelings were, it was about the fact that he was indeed a highly placed member of MK and as I have said, from information that he was uncomfortable in Swaziland and those were the reasons why I decided. MR LEOPENG Was he comfortable because of his safety or security, or because he was not happy with the organisation? MR DEETLEFS No, I would not be able to say, Chairperson. MR LEOPENG Now let's talk about his co-operation with you. Did he just cooperate with you without being interrogated, being a loyal member ...(indistinct) member who was well trained in the MK? MR DEETLEFS Yes, Chairperson, we can call it interrogation or questioning or a discussion, whatever we call it, but as I have said already whether at the first moment it was out of fear that he co-operated, I cannot say, but the fact remains after we brought him to the house and talked to him he started co-operating with us and there was no reason whatsoever to assault him. CHAIRPERSON Mr Leopeng, was that ever in dispute, that he did change allegiance sometime after his abduction? Is it in dispute? MR LEOPENG I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON Is it in dispute that Mr Sedibe at some time after his abduction switched allegiance? MR DEETLEFS No, it's not in dispute, it's common cause. CHAIRPERSON What is the purpose then, what are we leading up to then with these few questions? MR LEOPENG The basis - I'm coming to the assault part of it, that before he could change ...(indistinct) changed voluntarily, there was the interrogation. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But do you have any facts to back up what you want to put? That's what we are trying to put to Mr Deetlefs in so many ways without being direct. You've haven't been direct so far. MR LEOPENG Let me be direct. I am going to refer Mr Deetlefs to the bundle here. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. MR LEOPENG Mr Deetlefs, on page 25 of the bundle, Mr Fourie who was also a member of that unit, at that time indicated that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What page? MR LEOPENG 75 of the bundle. 7-5. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Which paragraph? MR LEOPENG ...(inaudible) MR DEETLEFS I have it before me, Chairperson. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, Mr Leopeng, I don't want to interfere with your cross-examination, you've referred us to paragraph 4 and I suppose you are now trying to lay a basis that somebody has given evidence, documentary, that he was assaulted whilst held in the house in Piet Retief. Yes? MR LEOPENG Maybe with the leave of the Panel, can I ask you was Mr Fourie also part of your team who abducted - who spoke to Mr Sedibe at Piet Retief? MR DEETLEFS No, he was not there. As I recall he only arrived at the house where we were detaining Mr Sedibe on the day after the abduction took place. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Are you not going to have a problem, Mr Leopeng, by referring us to this paragraph? MR LAMEY Chairperson, may I come in, I represent Mr Fourie here. I think that paragraph must be read also with paragraph 5, where Mr Fourie on page 76, where he says "As far as I know ..." ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE That's right, that's why I'm asking if Mr Leopeng is not going to have a problem with referring us to paragraph 5, if what he wants to elicit is the fact that Mr Sedibe was indeed assaulted while held in detention at a house in Piet Retief, because that paragraph does not suggest anything to that extent. MR LEOPENG Just a minute. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Subject to the permission of the Panel and the interpretation of paragraph 4, the way I understand it is that when Mr Fourie came to the house where Mr Sedibe was kept, it would seem that he was assaulted as it appears from his face. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, but at this stage ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Leopeng, does it ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE ... at this stage, wasn't he assaulted en route from Mankanyane Police Station to the house? MR LEOPENG That is what I want to know, at what stage was he assaulted, because Mr Fourie says he was seen to be assaulted. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. But hasn't it been Mr Deetlefs' evidence that he was bruised during the abduction. When he arrived at the house he already bore bruises. That's his evidence. But that does not mean that the fact that Mr Fourie on his arrival noticed these bruises, those bruises therefore emanated from the assault that was conducted whilst he was being kept at Piet Retief. That paragraph does not suggest that kind of evidence. MR LEOPENG Thank you, Madam Chair, I agree with the interpretation. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I'm not Madam Chair, I've got a Chairperson. Judge Pillay is the Chairperson. MR LEOPENG I'll leave that point, I understand it. Just a minute. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius, before you take that minute, can you just answer this question - sorry, Leopeng, sorry. What is it exactly - Mr Leopeng, now that you've finished consulting tell me what is it exactly that forms a basis of your objection to the application? MR LEOPENG Full disclosure of the assault and how the information for the abduction - where was information obtained for the abduction and further that the issue that he was only assaulted during the abduction is not true, he was further assaulted. CHAIRPERSON Ja, that's what my colleague was asking you, have you got actual evidence upon which to base those assertions? MR LEOPENG Mr Chairman, except that also the wife is intending to come and testify that after Mr Sedibe turned as an askari he told the wife that "I was assaulted before, that's why I had to turn as an askari". The wife is here to come and confirm that. And that he has some bruises on the body, all over the body, except on the fact and the nose that Mr Deetlefs is speaking about. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Leopeng, it's hardly likely that by your questions you're going to get that admission from that witness, Mr Deetlefs. Shouldn't you then just put it straight to him as a proposition and put it to him that you're going to call evidence to that effect and see what his reaction is to it. MR LEOPENG Thank you. Mr Deetlefs, there will be evidence to the effect that Mr Sedibe was continuously ...(indistinct) assaulted before he could even cooperate with you to become an askari. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, no, not at all. As I have stated, I do not recall that - I have stated that during the abduction and our journey through Swaziland to Piet Retief, violence was applied in order to control the detainee but at no point during his detention at the safehouse in Piet Retief was he assaulted. I don't know why I would admit to abduction and then deny any involvement in a more minor charge such as assault, I cannot see the reason why I would lie in this aspect. When it comes to the truth I tell the truth as I know it to be. MR LEOPENG Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LEOPENG CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chair. Mr Deetlefs, just for the sake of completeness regarding the question of the assault of Mr Sedibe after he was brought to Piet Retief, let me just put Mr Nofomela's version to you. It is found on page 171 to - sorry, 169 to 170 of the bundle. MR DEETLEFS I have it before me. MS PATEL Let me just read the relevant pages to which I - I mean the relevant sections for you. "September was taken to a house in the outskirts of Piet Retief. During the operation, September was assaulted by Lt van Dyk. Later we were joined by W/O Pienaar, W/O Greyling and W/O Botha and a Colonel from Middelburg. September was further interrogated and assaulted." MR DEETLEFS No, Chairperson, very clearly I think that Mr Nofomela is mistaken here because he is referring to persons who were never anywhere close to this operation. As far as I can recall, after we arrived at Piet Retief not one of the askaris from that point onwards, had any further access to Mr Sedibe. We had discussions with him alone with the express purpose of obtaining his co-operation, so I do not know from where this story comes. MS PATEL Alright. And then I think it was ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE Before you lose that point, Ms Patel, may I interpose with your permission? When you say none of the askaris had any contact with Mr September whilst you were talking to him in the house in Piet Retief, was Mr Koole not assigned to look after him whilst he was being detained in that house? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I think that at the beginning one of them may possibly have guarded him because some of us went to sleep after the long night, so there was someone who was guarding him but when we held discussion with him it was exclusively Mr Pienaar and I who were attempting to persuade him to cooperate. But as I've stated, even during that period I do not know of any further assault on Mr Sedibe. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But were present? When you say - let me probably first ask this question. Was it only and Mr Pienaar who were privy to talking to Mr Sedibe before he gave his co-operation? MR DEETLEFS No, I think Mr Visser was also still there, Mr de Kock, I don't know, there were various persons when we initiated the discussions, but subsequently some of us went to bed and some of us spoke to him. And after that we also gave Mr Sedibe the chance to rest because we realised that we wouldn't be able to manage much with him because he was also quite stressed and he also needed a break and it was only after that that we began to communicate with him in earnest. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. My follow-up question would be then, how soon after his arrival in this house in Piet Retief did he give his co-operation to work with you? MR DEETLEFS Well I can put it as such, we did not engage in discussions with him on a serious level on an immediate basis, but with regard to the structures in Swaziland he was discussing this aspect quite voluntarily. Later one we took turns in getting some sleep and he also had a break, but the real discussion with him began on the day subsequent to the day of the abduction. That is when we began to talk to him in earnest with regard to obtaining information. The first session of discussions was mainly to determine whether or not he would cooperate. So the basic information was provided by him when it came to the ANC structures in Swaziland and so forth and from that we could determine that he would cooperate. CHAIRPERSON And if he had not co-operated he would probably have been taken back to Swaziland. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, these are all possibilities, I'm not saying that that would have happened, it is a possibility that my have occurred, but we would have attempted at first to detain him in terms of Section 29, to attempt to see whether or not we could detain him for six months and to see whether or not there was anything that we could do to convince him during those six months, but it may have been possible that he may have had to be returned. But one can only speculate about these things. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Deetlefs, I don't think I understood your response to my question properly, I don't think we are on the same wavelength. My question was intended to find out how soon after his arrival in Piet Retief, Mr Sedibe said to you "I am now willing to cooperate and work with you". MR DEETLEFS He did not say so immediately. CHAIRPERSON Well how long after you arrived there? MR DEETLEFS When he said that he would cooperate? CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's the question. When did he tell you that he would cooperate with you? MR DEETLEFS It was only after that, approximately a day or two, perhaps that afternoon, but he did not tell us that he would cooperate immediately upon his arrival there, it was based upon these discussions that we inferred that he would cooperate with us. CHAIRPERSON So basically one to two days after your arrival in Piet Retief? MR DEETLEFS I cannot recall precisely, but I would speculate that it would have been that long. JUDGE KHAMPEPE We don't expect you to be precise, we merely want you to give us an estimate. So you say it is within one or two days of your arrival in Piet Retief? MR DEETLEFS Yes, approximately. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. Ms Patel? MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Then just to take you to page 57 in which Mr Fourie also, where he lists the incidents for which he applies for amnesty. If one looks at the third incident on the page he says - "I was present in the interrogation and assault of Glory Sedibe ..." ...(intervention) MR PRINSLOO What is the correct page, Mr Chairman? MS PATEL 57. MR PRINSLOO 57, thank you. ME PATEL "Dis insident 3". MNR DEETLEFS "Ek het dit, ja." MS PATEL Okay. Let me just read out to you what he says. "I was present during the interrogation and assault of Glory Sedibe after he was abducted from Swaziland and taken to Piet Retief." And you've already confirmed that Mr Fourie only came in the day after or the morning after the abduction, so he wouldn't have been privy to any assault, not so? Yet he says here that he was present during both the interrogation and the assault. JUDGE KHAMPEPE No, he doesn't say that. CHAIRPERSON I think he would not have been present according to your evidence, in the assault on the way to Piet Retief. I think the question is now aimed, do you know of which assault Mr Fourie refers to? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, no, because in the documents that we had now of Mr Fourie, he mentioned that he saw signs of assault, but he does not mention anything of the assault and in this paragraph he mentions the assault, so I do not know what he is referring to. He was never assaulted in my presence or where Mr Fourie was present, so I cannot answer to that. MR PRINSLOO I think in fairness to the witness as well, Mr Chairman, at page 76 of Mr Fourie's application, paragraph 5, in that paragraph he says "I understood that the assault took place during the process of his abduction from Swaziland to Piet Retief and that he had resisted during this abduction." So I don't think it's fair to put it in that context if one looks at his application and what he says here. It appears in the first ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR PRINSLOO Page 76, Mr Chairman. It's a double paragraph 5, because the one on page 75 is marked paragraph 5 and it's round about the sixth line from the bottom of that paragraph, Mr Chairman. MS PATEL With respect to the objection raised, Honourable Chairperson, in fairness, that was put to your client by my learned colleague, Adv Leopeng. I merely for the sake of completeness and also for whatever arguments may arise at a later stage, also put to your client what Mr Fourie said in an earlier statement to us. MR PRINSLOO Just for completeness as well, Mr Chairman, what the representative of the family put was at paragraph 4 and I'm referring to paragraph 5, which was never put to the witness. I'm merely ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Whatever the position, Mr Prinsloo, Mr Fourie says that he was present during an assault. I don't know thusfar whether the parties refer to the same assault. MR PRINSLOO I shall leave it there, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Chairperson, may I just come in here. I'll get more exact instructions on this aspect, but as the first paragraph on page 76 - sorry, paragraph 2.1 on page 68, Mr Fourie testifies that his first initial amnesty application was done by himself and you would notice from it there's not a lot of details. So my impression from my instructions are - but I'll just confirm it again with him, that he placed it, that first paragraph of his initial application must be read together with his total supplementary application which was later done, Chairperson, and which is then what we find on the subsequent pages of the bundle. So I don't think one should just take that out of the total context of his supplementary application. CHAIRPERSON You're then completely entitled to get your information and you consult and perhaps even put it into proper context. In my view the question was fair because it's easier and it needed the witness to ...(indistinct) it, one way or the other. MR LAMEY As it pleases you, Chairperson. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Just to confirm. Was Mr Fourie present during the interrogation of Mr Sedibe after his abduction, according to your memory, your knowledge? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, he could have been. As I have said quite a number of people were there. I cannot place him immediately, but it is possible. I know he was there at some stage, but at which stage he arrived there or whether he was present during the interrogation, I cannot say with certainly at this stage, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. And then just to move onto another point, Mr Bosch I believe at page 41 - let me just double-check the reference - okay, if one turns to page 51, 11.2, he makes mention of raids or searches I would believe, on certain houses in Swaziland as a result of information received from Mr Sedibe. Do you bear any knowledge of this? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I cannot say with certainty. I know that at some stages there were allegations that members of Vlakplaas had raided certain houses in Swaziland, but I was not present and I am not able to say whether it was indeed so. I cannot recall whether specifically after this abduction, a raid was carried out. MS PATEL And then finally - sorry to take you back again, but Mr Fourie says that Mr Sedibe was bound to the bed, both his hands and his feet, do you confirm that? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, no I cannot. I recall that he was cuffed to the bed, but as I know it was only his arm. It is possible, but to have him rest and to grant us some rest, he was cuffed to the bed. I cannot say with certainty whether it was both his legs and hands. CHAIRPERSON Can I just get some clarity here. We refer to a bed at Piet Retief? MR DEETLEFS Yes. CHAIRPERSON If it was indeed so that he was tied up and tied to the bed, why? Here was a person who was on the threshold of becoming an askari, why was he tied to a bed? MR DEETLEFS Because at that stage it was just upon our arrival there. Although he had co-operated, one has a dilemma because he could have escaped and gone back to Swaziland and it could have caused problems for us and this was a security measure. We were tired and he was tired. CHAIRPERSON I do not understand this Mr Deetlefs, you have just said that he would have never been assaulted because you did not want to send him away. Here was a person who could supply you with information, he was on the threshold of becoming an askari and he was tied up. MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, I believe that even if he does cooperate one has to be certain - at that stage he was still a prisoner. CHAIRPERSON I understand what you are saying, but your answer earlier on that you did not dare assault him because you wanted to, to put it as such, buy him to the other side, if that was the case why was he cuffed? MR DEETLEFS For the simple reason to prevent escape because at that stage some of us went to sleep and there was a danger there, we were all tired, people could fall asleep, he could escape, so it was just to prevent escape, that was the only reason. CHAIRPERSON If it is indeed so and you did not trust him that much, is it possible that he could have been assaulted? MR DEETLEFS It is possible, Chairperson, I cannot argue, but definitely not in my presence. MS PATEL I suppose we can't take it any further than that then, Honourable Chairperson. I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Deetlefs, the ANC cadres, these are the persons who fought the armed struggle, did they work openly or underground? MR DEETLEFS They worked underground. MR PRINSLOO And this aspect of Mr Sedibe becoming an askari, was it immediately addressed there or was it a process that were to be taken, that would take place over some time? MR DEETLEFS It was a process, possibilities were mentioned to him. I don't know whether it was the same day or a day later or two days later, but at some stage we did address it, but it is a process that he has to go through. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR PRINSLOO No, that is so, but I cannot recall at which stage we planned to make him an askari. CHAIRPERSON Before you did that did you call home, to Middelburg? MR DEETLEFS Yes. CHAIRPERSON So it wasn't an issue that the idea that he becomes an askari after his abduction? MR DEETLEFS No, I do not refer to the idea, I refer to when we mentioned it to him. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO ADV BOSMAN No questions. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Deetlefs, I have probably one or two questions emanating from the questioning by Ms Patel. In your evidence you've already testified that Mr Sedibe gave his co-operation to work with you after a day or two of his arrival in Piet Retief. Now what I want to know is whether after he had given his co-operation you continued cuffing him to the bed. MR DEETLEFS No, it was only during that short stage, until after we rested, and thereafter he was uncuffed again. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Koole in his affidavit has also stated that Mr Sedibe was brought to a house in Piet Retief and the following day was removed and taken to a different house. Do you know of that? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, yes, he was moved. I am not certain because the following day I returned to Ermelo. I don't know, Mr Pienaar would be able to better answer that question as to where they accommodated him. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So there were instances when you would not have been present when other members of Vlakplaas might have been present to interrogate Mr Sedibe. MR DEETLEFS Yes, there were cases. As I've said, I went back to Ermelo and after that Mr Pienaar dealt with the matter further. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So it is possible that Mr Fourie might have witnessed an assault which occurred in your absence. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is possible. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Deetlefs, I do not understand the purpose with the question which was put to you a few minutes ago, not now but by Mr Leopeng, but perhaps it will come to light at the end of the hearing. As I understand matters they appear as follows, that Mr Sedibe became an askari as a result of the assault and that he was virtually forced to do so, although later he genuinely co-operated, is that correct? MR DEETLEFS No, Chairperson, I was never present with any assault and I don't believe that it would have happened that way because if one had wanted to force Mr Sedibe to work for Vlakplaas by means of violence, he would have escaped at the first available opportunity. That was no way to co-opt someone into the ranks of the police. CHAIRPERSON Well then let me put it as such, even though your evidence does not indicate that this happened to Mr Sedibe, could this have happened to somebody else? MR DEETLEFS Not that I know of. CHAIRPERSON Did you perhaps hear that this happened to somebody else? MR DEETLEFS No, I do not have any knowledge that somebody was forced by means of violence. CHAIRPERSON Or that they were placed in such a position that the ANC would think that they had become askaris and if that was the case they would simply have to become askaris because they didn't have any other resort. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that may be so, but I don't have any personal knowledge of that, perhaps Mr de Kock would because he worked more closely with these matters. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't that be a possibility for this case? MR DEETLEFS Not that I know of. CHAIRPERSON But you were the main figure of the operation. MR DEETLEFS No, at no point in my presence was Mr Sedibe assaulted by me or by somebody else. CHAIRPERSON But did you place him in the position where he feared that the ANC would think that he had indeed become an askari and that under such circumstances he elected to cooperate with you? MR DEETLEFS That is possible. This initial co-operation could have been born out of fear, but we will never know what the initial impetus was for his decision to cooperate. CHAIRPERSON And the Security Police of that time knew that such things were possible. MR DEETLEFS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And it was one of the tactics that they employed. MR DEETLEFS Yes, to render it difficult for him to return ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But actually it was their choice to do so in either event. MR DEETLEFS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Deetlefs, did I understand your evidence-in-chief to say that when you initiated the abduction you did not want to be connected by the Swaziland Police with that abduction of Mr Sedibe? MR DEETLEFS I beg your pardon, I didn't really hear you properly. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Did I understand your evidence correctly that you did not want to be connected to Mr Sedibe's abduction, by the Swaziland Police? MR DEETLEFS I didn't put it in that many words, I stated that I would never have involved the Swaziland Police, but simultaneously because I worked regularly in Swaziland, I also didn't want to create the impression that I was involved with the matter. That is correct, that is why we wanted to create the impression that it may have been the work of the ANC. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, the ANC was involved. MR DEETLEFS Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But did you not think that by executing the abduction so soon after having been informed by both the Head of the Intelligence Unit and the Commissioner of Police that such an abduction would be connected to you? I mean it was immediately after you were informed of this information and the information being the whereabouts of Mr Sedibe? MR DEETLEFS Yes, but that was a reasonable chance that I had to take because there wasn't much time. As I have stated, they wanted to deport him to Zambia as speedily as possible and that is why I had to take that calculated risk and if they later pointed a finger at me I would just have to plead innocence. It was a chance that I had to take because we didn't have much time at our disposal. JUDGE KHAMPEPE As things unfolded were you contacted by the Swaziland Police about Mr Sedibe's whereabouts immediately after the abduction? MR DEETLEFS Chairperson, no, however I was later informed but I cannot recall whether they contacted me or whether it emanated from the following routine visit, but I was never accused of it for some or other reason. There were still much confusion and even the ANC was suspected of this. I don't know how they arrived at this conclusion ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But Mr Deetlefs, that was an intrusion of sovereignty and you say you can't remember whether they asked you about it or not. Surely those things didn't happen every day. MR DEETLEFS Yes, that is correct. I cannot recall whether it was the next day or later or whether they contacted me or whether it was when I visited them again, but it did come to discussion, they did involved me about it. I cannot recall when this took place because I had spent two to three days away from the office. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, there's something that I wanted to ask you, why did they want to deport him to Zambia, was he a Zambian national? MR DEETLEFS No, I cannot speak with authority on this, I can only state the limited knowledge that I have about this. By nature of the situation they could not deport these persons to South Africa ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR DEETLEFS Because it was connected with a political matter. As I had it there was an agreement with the ANC that they would deport such persons to Zambia because Zambia was willing to receive such persons. They had to negotiate with a country that would be willing to receive such persons. They had problems with Mozambique because they didn't enjoy very good relations with Mozambique and they'd learnt from experience that once they had put someone through the border post at Mozambique, he would simply climb back over the fence the following evening, back into Swaziland. And for that reason they negotiated with the ANC and the Zambian authority for such cases where ANC members had been arrested in Swaziland, they would be deported back to Zambia because at that stage Zambia was so to speak the head office of the ANC's activities, from that point out into the neighbouring States. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, may the witness be excused? CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PRINSLOO I call Mr Pienaar, Mr Chairman.