amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-02-15 PRETORIA 2 IZAK DANIEL BOSCH https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54041&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200215pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Bosch, what language would you prefer to use? MR BOSCH Afrikaans. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objection to taking the oath. IZAK DANIEL BOSCH (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Mr Bosch, you are also an applicant in these proceedings with regard to the abduction of Glory September Sedibe, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Is it correct that your application for amnesty commences on page 32 of the bundle before the Committee and therein your initial application appears which was completed in your own handwriting and then there is a typed version. And later when you acquired legal representation a more supplementary application is found from page 40 to 50. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Mr Bosch, is it correct that when Mr Sedibe was abducted you worked in the Piet Retief area with, amongst others, Mr Paul van Dyk? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY What was your rank at that stage? MR BOSCH I was a Sergeant. MR LAMEY Is it correct that you went along into Swaziland when the abduction of Sedibe took place? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Upon whose instructions did you go there? MR BOSCH Upon Col de Kock's instruction. MR LAMEY And what was your role throughout? Did you go into the police station? What was your role? Did you go in with another vehicle other than the one that the abducted person went in? MR BOSCH I went in with another vehicle through Oshoek border post and I drove behind them at Nerston, but I did not go into the police station, I was quite a way from them. Someone was with me, but I cannot recall who it was. MR LAMEY Was your role supportive in nature? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Were you involved in any assault of Mr Sedibe? MR BOSCH No. MR LAMEY Did you know before you went into Swaziland that the abduction of Mr Sedibe would take place? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And any stage thereafter - may I just refer you to page 48 of your application, you mention members of the Ermelo Security Branch, Chris Deetlefs, Frans Labuschagne and Freek Pienaar. Mr Labuschagne has handed up a statement saying that he was not involved in the abduction, do you stand by that or is it possible that your reference to him is mistaken? MR BOSCH It may be mistaken that he was involved in the incident that would be heard tomorrow or the day after, but I know there were other people. MR LAMEY What I would like to ask you, the Nerston/Amsterdam incident, you were also involved there. I cannot recall, but this took place a day before or after Sedibe's abduction. MR BOSCH That's correct. MR LAMEY You applied for amnesty in that instance. MR BOSCH That's correct. MR LAMEY Where Mr Labuschagne was also involved. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Is it possible that Mr Labuschagne was in the area there but you mistakenly place him at this incident? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And then on page 48, paragraph 2, you state that Sedibe after he was questioned and then he disclosed information about ANC safehouse and houses from which the ANC operated in Swaziland. MR BOSCH That's correct. MR LAMEY Is your recollection clear about this, with regard to this specific questioning of Sedibe, or could it have been a long while after this? How do you recall it? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I recall we were at Piet Retief and Col de Kock was with us and we went in early the morning and at two houses, we searched two houses and we found some documents and those documents were brought back to the RSA. MR LAMEY But Mr de Kock's evidence is that it was not - it did not have anything to do with Sedibe's abduction, but there was something like that at a later stage. MR BOSCH That may be possible, Chairperson, I just recall that we searched some houses in Swaziland. MR LAMEY Were you yourself tasked with the questioning of Mr Sedibe? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And then on page 49 you confirm your political objective. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Bosch, if I understand your evidence correctly you were in a vehicle that was in an almost convoy formation when you moved back across the border. MR BOSCH That's correct. MR HUGO And there may have been one or two other persons in your vehicle, of which the identities you cannot recall right now. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR HUGO Can you recall - and please tell us if you cannot, where you stopped the first time when you crossed the border back to South Africa? MR BOSCH Chairperson, if I recall correctly it was not at the border post, it was in-between the border post and Piet Retief, somewhere along the way we stopped. MR HUGO And can you recall what happened there exactly? MR BOSCH I think we passed them to tell the people in Piet Retief that they were on their way. MR HUGO And can you recall why they stopped and whom they met there? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, I cannot recall. MR HUGO I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LEOPENG Chairperson, just a few questions. Mr Bosch, is it your evidence that you were not involved in the assault of Mr Sedibe? MR BOSCH Correct, Chairperson. MR LEOPENG Did you see assault of Sedibe by other members of the South African Police during his abduction? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I saw Mr Sedibe when they unloaded him in Piet Retief, I saw he had a cut over his nose and his eyes were swollen and that is all. But I was not in the vehicle where he was assaulted. MR LEOPENG So it could have been possible for everyone to have observed the braises on his face? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson, one could not miss it. MR LEOPENG No further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LEOPENG MS PATEL No questions, thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR LAMEY No re-examination, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY ADV BOSMAN Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Bosch, did you at any stage see Mr Visser? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson, I saw him at Piet Retief. ADV BOSMAN Where in Piet Retief? MR BOSCH I think it was at the safehouse. ADV BOSMAN Can you recall when it was? MR BOSCH The same evening when we returned from Swaziland, Chairperson. - or the following day, I cannot recall, but it was quite confusing. ADV BOSMAN It would appear that you think it was in the dark. MR BOSCH I think so, I don't know why, but that is what my memory tells me. ADV BOSMAN You are really not assisting us, Mr Bosch. Thank you. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Bosch, you are obviously not correct with regard to the evidence you've stated in your written application on paragraph 47 of how you came to know of Mr Sedibe's whereabouts, when that is taken with the evidence already given by Mr Deetlefs, is that not so? MR BOSCH What I meant here, Chairperson, is that the Security Branch of Ermelo received information that Mr Sedibe was detained in Swaziland. That is how I recall it, I do not recall who gave this information. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. Thank you. That is all, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you're excused. MR BOSCH Thank you, Chairperson. MR LEOPENG Chairperson, can I ask just one question. CHAIRPERSON What's it about? MR LEOPENG It's appearing on page 57, where he said that he was present when Mr Sedibe was interrogated and assaulted. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Page what? MR LEOPENG 57, 5-7. ADV BOSMAN But that's Mr Fourie's statement, Mr Leopeng. MR LEOPENG I beg your pardon. JUDGE KHAMPEPE His affidavit ends on page 51. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Have you got a similar short one? MR LAMEY My last applicant is Mr Fourie, Chairperson, I don't think that is going to be so short. I would suggest - I spoke to him a little while ago, he's a bit held up or so ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Okay, if he's not going to be that short, then we can adjourn till tomorrow. MR LAMEY I would request an adjournment, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is there anybody else that's got a shorter witness? Is anybody appearing for Vermeulen? MS PATEL Sorry, Honourable Chairperson, I thought that I'd canvassed this with you in chambers, where Mr Wim Cornelius had indicated that they're withdrawing the application, that his client had in fact mistaken this incident for the Msibi incident and would have addressed us when it came to the Msibi incident. So that application is in fact withdrawn. CHAIRPERSON And Nofomela? MS PATEL Nofomela has already testified. The transcript of his testimony is in fact before you, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And Fourie? MS PATEL That's the last applicant that is meant to testify. CHAIRPERSON Mr Leopeng, how many witnesses, if any, have you got to call on the merits? MR LEOPENG Chairman, just one. CHAIRPERSON They're going to take on the merits? They will testify to the merits? MR LEOPENG Yes. ...(indistinct) the wife briefly - with the assistance of the Committee, the wife is going to say the information which has been provided to her by Mr Sedibe, so I'm not sure that it's going to be hearsay or not. CHAIRPERSON Well I think you best look up the law before you lead her, just check the law about the veracity of that kind of evidence. Just check it out because I'm not too sure myself whether it's evidence that we can take. You say only one? MR LEOPENG Yes. CHAIRPERSON Anybody on this side going to call any extra witnesses? So we've got two witnesses tomorrow. We'll adjourn till half past nine then tomorrow. MR LAMEY Chairperson, may I just enquire, is the Msibi matter going to start tomorrow? CHAIRPERSON Well we are going to have to decide tomorrow morning and see how quick or how short it's going to be. It may not start, we'll have to play it by ear tomorrow. MR LAMEY Shall we make arrangements to have the applicants ready in case we proceed tomorrow? CHAIRPERSON Well in any case even if we postpone it they'll have to be present. MR LAMEY As it pleases you, Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS